Why the CS?

[glitterboy2098]

why is the CS seen as the ultimate in enemies?

because despite all the books, RIFTS is still Americo-centric. 90% are set in america, or connected to them in some way.

and in america, the CS is the biggest threat.

plus, its spred. it has feelers in the NGR, Columbia, the atlantic, and is even exploring further south, east, and west. it has reached most of north america, quite a bit of canada and mexico, has been meddling in the affairs of europe and south america, and is looking to expand further.

every other human-centric nation in the game can be judged by how close it is to the CS. perth and melborne are great powers in austrailia, but they're pretty isolationist. they don't go waste villages to open up an area for their own population. the NGR can be seen as a nice, democratic version of the CS. the Japanese republic is the same way. ect.

[AllMightyRCB]

I think the CS is good. Almost all the people I've played Rifts with think they're evil and don't like them, but I think the Coalition is mostly good and are the human's best hope of survival.

[Mudang]

Isn't Melbourne worse than the CS with being exclusive?

The CS is aggressively trying to conquer new lands; Melbourne.... not so much.

[Jefffar]

In Rifts I tend to leave the book villains as options for the characters to pick a fight with if they want and focus on smaller scale villany on a more immediate scale for them to deal with instead.

Not that I won't throw in a random encounter with the splugs or the CS from time to time.

[BookWyrm]

Well, somebody's gotta be the home-town baddy. Who else can really stick it to humans better than humans themselves?

[Guest]

Maybe where you simply game, that's the whole truth. But that isn't evident everywhere. Back when I used to real-time play, the CS were only brought up if were were actaully in the Magic Zone. Usually it was something much more difficult to kill rather then a walking squad of black and white armor. Vampires, Supernatural Intelligences, Demons, ect.

[Toc Rat]

The CS will always be the bad guy until they throw off the Proseks and their policies.

They are the bad guys not just because of their Nazi wanabe behaviours. They are also the badguys because KS wrote them that way. Just look in the CWC book, in there you will find a passage from KS explaining why and how they are evil.

That being said it is also worth noting that they can be used as good guys on occassion. It is important to keep in mind that while it is their policy to exterminate all D-bees and magic users, individual soldiers can "look the other way".
The second way they can be used as good guys is that they don't see themselves as being evil. Well not most of them anyways. They (the CS citizens) have been so bombarded by anti-magic, anti D-bee and until recently anti-psychic propaganda. They honestly believe they are doing good and saving the human race by committing genocide.

[SkyeFyre]

Oddest thing. I think my players have gotten into maybe one small entanglement with the CS. The largest threat in my games definately are supernatural predators.

[grandmaster z0b]

I love playing the CS as villains but they have never been the ultimate villain, I like most people here have some alien intelligence or supernatural menace as the big bad guy, the CS are just background.

Most players I have run are anti-CS, but they are also viewed as a "necessary evil".

More what gets on my goat is when people blindly state how great the CS is and how they are not evil. Yeah I agree there are worse evils out there but that doesn't excuse the CS's actions.

I think the CS's shades of grey in regards to good/evil is a great roleplaying tool.

[cornholioprime]

why is the CS seen as the ultimate in enemies?

because despite all the books, RIFTS is still Americo-centric. 90% are set in america, or connected to them in some way.

and in america, the CS is the biggest threat.

plus, its spred. it has feelers in the NGR, Columbia, the atlantic, and is even exploring further south, east, and west. it has reached most of north america, quite a bit of canada and mexico, has been meddling in the affairs of europe and south america, and is looking to expand further.

every other human-centric nation in the game can be judged by how close it is to the CS. perth and melborne are great powers in austrailia, but they're pretty isolationist. they don't go waste villages to open up an area for their own population. the NGR can be seen as a nice, democratic version of the CS. the Japanese republic is the same way. ect.

The BEST explanation going!!!

[cornholioprime]

Because they fulfill my sexual desires.

Aren't you the guy that the CS also makes erect???

20 Sick Little Monkey Points.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of the appeals of Rifts, for me, has always been the concept of a world so messed up that there are only three choices (in North America, at least):
1. Ally yourself with non-human powers.
2. Ally yourself with Nazis (the CS).
3. Try desperately to survive somewhere between these two opposing forces.

[Dead Boy]

The Coalition States are often seen as the "bad guys" because the game is written from a particular point of view that paints them so. From that view point they are the imperialistic would be conquerers who want to purge all that is different and alien from their lands, and expand what they call their lands while they're at it. CS soldiers are often portaryed a jack-booted thugs who prey on the innocent and indiscriminately burn peaceful villages to the ground in the dead of night if there is so much as a single d-bee, mage, or teacher among them. That is why so many see them as the bad guys. Not because they are, but because the players are encouraged to see things from the outsider's POV.

But things could easily be seen the other way around. That the Coalition and the actions of its soldiers are not evil or expansionistic, but instead noble, defensive, and for the better good of a people besieged by a diverse and often hostile alien army of invaders. The overall point of view is just a flip-side of a coin's toss away from heartless villain to bold, brave defender of what remains of Humanity... or at least as much of Humanity that's left that hasn't been corrupted and turned against them by lies and the temptation of unnatural power. One man's ultimate evil is another's ultimate hero. It all boils down to perspective.

[Nxla666]

Nah, I think the reason why most people hate the CS is the same reason P.E.T.A. hangs around expensive fur shops and not biker bars, its safer.

Actually I use the CS as a primary motivator on occasion. Nothing seems to get an adventure moving faster than a Mechanised Company of Dead Boys.

[grandmaster z0b]

The Coalition States are often seen as the "bad guys" because the game is written from a particular point of view that paints them so. From that view point they are the imperialistic would be conquerers who want to purge all that is different and alien from their lands, and expand what they call their lands while they're at it. CS soldiers are often portaryed a jack-booted thugs who prey on the innocent and indiscriminately burn peaceful villages to the ground in the dead of night if there is so much as a single d-bee, mage, or teacher among them. That is why so many see them as the bad guys. Not because they are, but because the players are encouraged to see things from the outsider's POV.

But things could easily be seen the other way around. That the Coalition and the actions of its soldiers are not evil or expansionistic, but instead noble, defensive, and for the better good of a people besieged by a diverse and often hostile alien army of invaders. The overall point of view is just a flip-side of a coin's toss away from heartless villain to bold, brave defender of what remains of Humanity... or at least as much of Humanity that's left that hasn't been corrupted and turned against them by lies and the temptation of unnatural power. One man's ultimate evil is another's ultimate hero. It all boils down to perspective.

Actually from the replies to this thread it seems there are not many that play the CS as the ultimate villain. I think most people play them as good and bad, depending on the individual and the situation. Their leaders may be evil but a trooper could be either.

Very few people seem to play them in a black and white context and the many of them are pro-CS who only see them as saviours.

[Richter]

Personally, with 1 exception, every game I've played in has been a Coalition Campaign. The current game i'll be starting this week is also a Coalition based game.

Where I can see them making great bad guys, as many others have said, they work better as a background enemy, not the main. Certainly, no one wants to do battle with some Super SAMS backed by Deadboys, but unless your running a Federation of Magic "kill the CS" game, theres plenty of better enemies.

Personally, I enjoy playing as the Coalition, and seeing how good or evil the party (mine or in my games) turns out.
Its also nice being able to rec out equipment thats argueably some of the best in the game, and not having to purchase it =p

Oh and my first post, yay

[Vrykolas2k]

Half of my group had homes in Freehold or Tolkeen. Kinda makes it hard NOT to hate somebody when they've wiped out everything you had, and your friends and loved ones. Mnay of whom, by the way, were humans.

[Proseksword]

I'm another Soldier, and another pro-CS player. As a GM, I have run a Coalition based Campaign, and everyone pretty much enjoyed it. As much as they are painted as black as black can be, I don't see how the coalition is "evil" and I have yet to see Emperor Prosek do anything characteristic of the diabolic alignment he's labeled with (Personally, according to the fashion he's written, he seems more Miscreant, Abberrant, or Anarchist). The whole D-Bee extermination camp nonsense in Seige of Tolkeen seemed like a deliberate attempt to just turn the CS into Nazi's, but it didn't really make any sense, when they obviously could and would have just vaped the lot of them. Evil? Sure, there are some CS NPCs that are sadistic creeps, but the world is full of sadistic creeps. What does the Coalition stand for? What do they want?

They want mankind to survive.

They want mankind to get back the world that rightfully belongs to her native species

They want to keep dangerous power (a.k.a. magic capable of destroying military grade technology) out of the hands of anybody who cares to learn how to use it.

They want to keep people from being eaten by shapeshifting flesh-eating monsters from another dimension.

Sure, there methods might seem extreme at times, but extreme situations call for extreme measures. How do you trust something when you don't know what it is and can't, because the very thing that it appears to be can be and often is an illusion? You obviously don't risk your life foolishly trying to find out, you vape it, and move on, because there is plenty of other things to worry about in this world without having to deal with whatever that thing was. Call me crazy, but the Coalition's stance on everything but literacy seems pretty sensical to me.

[Zer0 Kay]

Between FQ and CS we play them as the same anyway. Even if they've split. Ausiland hasn't even been visited so why would anyone know yet? As far as Vampires and other evils... there is just something that make evil feel worse when it's coming form your own species. It's kinda hard to tell some cowering D-bees that your trying to save that your just not like them, especially if they happen to be from a race that does tend to gravitate to one side or the other.

[Toc Rat]

Speaking as a one in service to the US Army I agree that war is "messy". However that does not excuse the CS's actions. Some have already mentioned the death camps and that the US doesn't have any such things. Yet the CS does or did depending on time line.

I have also never seen a fellow soldier kill a sleeping infant, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. The CS does do that and much worse on a regular basis. Just because that sleeping 2 month old was the son or daughter of a human magic user, or a elf (D-bee). Now some will say "Well it could have been a shape changed dragon!" to which I reply "Really? Then how come the Psi-stalker said it was prefectly human? No magic in use detected nor was any supernatural being in range."

I have run CS campaigns in the past (when time allows) and get requests often to run them either in person or online. I am for the most part neutral on the matter of the CS. I use them as they were writen by the game designers, as the primary antagonists of North America. Yes, they can be used as protaginists and during my CS based games that is how the PCs and myself view them as. It doesn't change what they are though.

Something I would like to see more of in the future from Palladium is the in game idea that the average soldier and citizen of the CS is a basicly good person and that they are not happy with their current leader's genocidal policies. It would make them more gray and less black. Within in all humans is the capacity for good or evil. That is primary difference I feel between humans and Alien Intelligences. They AIs have no choice but to be evil. ALL alien intelligences are writen as the soul of pure evil in the Mega-verse. Look thru any Palladium book you care to and you will find that ALL of the AIs are of an evil alignment. Humans on the other hand are capable of being any of the alignments.
That being the case I think it should reflect more in the CS population that not everyone is a happy little wanabe Nazi. That with a change to it's current leadership and thus it's policies, a different kind of CS could be formed. Perhaps one more like it was before Chairman Prosek became Emperor Prosek.

I admit that the possibility of such a thing happening in cannon is fairly remote but I can always hope. It is far more likely to be a thing only explored by the individual players and GMs.

[Larsen]

that would be becaus on rifts north america the cs is the biggest bad guy out there and most games take place in north america.

[grandmaster z0b]

Speaking as a one in service to the US Army I agree that war is "messy". However that does not excuse the CS's actions. Some have already mentioned the death camps and that the US doesn't have any such things. Yet the CS does or did depending on time line.

I have also never seen a fellow soldier kill a sleeping infant, nor have I ever heard of such a thing. The CS does do that and much worse on a regular basis. Just because that sleeping 2 month old was the son or daughter of a human magic user, or a elf (D-bee). Now some will say "Well it could have been a shape changed dragon!" to which I reply "Really? Then how come the Psi-stalker said it was prefectly human? No magic in use detected nor was any supernatural being in range."

I have run CS campaigns in the past (when time allows) and get requests often to run them either in person or online. I am for the most part neutral on the matter of the CS. I use them as they were writen by the game designers, as the primary antagonists of North America. Yes, they can be used as protaginists and during my CS based games that is how the PCs and myself view them as. It doesn't change what they are though.

Something I would like to see more of in the future from Palladium is the in game idea that the average soldier and citizen of the CS is a basicly good person and that they are not happy with their current leader's genocidal policies. It would make them more gray and less black. Within in all humans is the capacity for good or evil. That is primary difference I feel between humans and Alien Intelligences. They AIs have no choice but to be evil. ALL alien intelligences are writen as the soul of pure evil in the Mega-verse. Look thru any Palladium book you care to and you will find that ALL of the AIs are of an evil alignment. Humans on the other hand are capable of being any of the alignments.
That being the case I think it should reflect more in the CS population that not everyone is a happy little wanabe Nazi. That with a change to it's current leadership and thus it's policies, a different kind of CS could be formed. Perhaps one more like it was before Chairman Prosek became Emperor Prosek.

I admit that the possibility of such a thing happening in cannon is fairly remote but I can always hope. It is far more likely to be a thing only explored by the individual players and GMs.

Great point, OTT CS supporters so often ignore the really bad things like murdering babies and genocide. In fact it seems that the vast majority of players play the CS in a realistic way, not totally evil but totally good either. The only players who seem to see the CS in a one-sided way are the people that only play CS campaigns.
Why are so many of them soldiers in the US military?

[cornholioprime]

The Coalition States are often seen as the "bad guys" because the game is written from a particular point of view that paints them so. From that view point they are the imperialistic would be conquerers who want to purge all that is different and alien from their lands, and expand what they call their lands while they're at it. CS soldiers are often portaryed a jack-booted thugs who prey on the innocent and indiscriminately burn peaceful villages to the ground in the dead of night if there is so much as a single d-bee, mage, or teacher among them. That is why so many see them as the bad guys. Not because they are, but because the players are encouraged to see things from the outsider's POV.

But things could easily be seen the other way around. That the Coalition and the actions of its soldiers are not evil or expansionistic, but instead noble, defensive, and for the better good of a people besieged by a diverse and often hostile alien army of invaders. The overall point of view is just a flip-side of a coin's toss away from heartless villain to bold, brave defender of what remains of Humanity... or at least as much of Humanity that's left that hasn't been corrupted and turned against them by lies and the temptation of unnatural power. One man's ultimate evil is another's ultimate hero. It all boils down to perspective.

Seriously, Dead Boy, no offense but this kind of Statement gets kind of old. And I'm not targeting you; this comes up all the time.

It's essentially the oft-repeated (yet untrue) Declaration that usually says something to the effect of...

"You Players out there that are 'anti' CS only think that the CS are Bad Guys."

Enough already.

Most outside observers withouth a Dog in the fight, as they say, see them as bad.
The non-Coalition NPCs -the ones that aren't collecting Bounties on the Coalition's behalf, anyay -almost universally see them as bad.
Many of their current and erstwhile ALLIES see them as bad and to be kept at arms' length.

The Authors TELL YOU that the CS, at its current point in time, is definitely bad (with the ad nauseum disclaimer that the Populace serves as Useful Idiots, and that the vast majority of the Soldiers don't get to see the whole Picture). And by the way, the Authors themselves tell you that the CS really ARE jack-booted Thugs that raze defenseless Villages to the ground if they find a D-Bee in the lot...or, sometimes, even a dissenting Opinion.

I really, Really, REALLY don't understand what's so gut-wrenching about just saying that the CS are (currently) THE bad guys in North America, and one of the worst Evils currently on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes, I think that some Rifts Players honestly believe that by admitting that the CS are evil in Game somehow makes the Players Neo-Nazis or something in Real Life.......

[Toc Rat]

Seriously, Dead Boy, no offense but this kind of Statement gets kind of old. And I'm not targeting you; this comes up all the time.

It's essentially the oft-repeated (yet untrue) Declaration that usually says something to the effect of...

"You Players out there that are 'anti' CS only think that the CS are Bad Guys."

Enough already.

Most outside observers withouth a Dog in the fight, as they say, see them as bad.
The non-Coalition NPCs -the ones that aren't collecting Bounties on the Coalition's behalf, anyay -almost universally see them as bad.
Many of their current and erstwhile ALLIES see them as bad and to be kept at arms' length.

The Authors TELL YOU that the CS, at its current point in time, is definitely bad (with the ad nauseum disclaimer that the Populace serves as Useful Idiots, and that the vast majority of the Soldiers don't get to see the whole Picture). And by the way, the Authors themselves tell you that the CS really ARE jack-booted Thugs that raze defenseless Villages to the ground if they find a D-Bee in the lot...or, sometimes, even a dissenting Opinion.

I really, Really, REALLY don't understand what's so gut-wrenching about just saying that the CS are (currently) THE bad guys in North America, and one of the worst Evils currently on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes, I think that some Rifts Players honestly believe that by admitting that the CS are evil in Game somehow makes the Players Neo-Nazis or something in Real Life.......[/quote]

[TechnoGothic]

i use Atlantis as the big bads villians, period.
Next is the Vamp Kingdoms.
Next is "Slavers" be they human or d-bees. They capture ppl and sell them as slaves to small or large kingdoms...
Next are the Kingdoms who use Slaves...turn ppl into slave borgs, slave juicers, etc...
Next are Supernatural monsters in geeral...

CS isnt on the list of true evil...almost but not quet there. They are quasi-evil...one calorie evil.

[Toc Rat]

I would use Atlantis but for the most part ole Spylnie just sits there. Sure he sends out little rading parties here and there but for the most part he is content to sit on Atlantis and not expand...unlike the Coalition.

It's just easyer to use the CS since you could be minding your own business and BLAM in comes a Coalition search and destroy platoon to ruin your day.

I think the CS would be seen as less evil if they actually attacked something or someone besides helpless D-bees or peacful kingdoms of magic users. Maybe if they actually cared about the rest of the human race they'd do something about the Vampire kingdoms. Of course that would require actual effort, sacrifice and risk the possibility of losing. None of which Big Daddy Prosek would dare do, he cares too much about the nice little place of power he has created for himself. Heck I still don't understand why he attacked Tolkeen of all places. It's the Federation of Magic he should have attacked. They were the ones who attack the CS so long ago. Tsk but then we run in to that whole effort, sacrifice and courage (fear of losing) thing again.

Make no mistake, the Proskes care nothing about the humans the rule over, except for how it matters to their own power. They care nothing for other humans. They demonstrated that very well by their attack on Free Quebec. They are hypocrits and cowards, power mad petty dictators whose only concern is furthering their own power. If they were even half as righteous as their propaganda, they would cease wasting valuable lives and resources in senseless attacks against nations that were no threat to them. They would teach their people and encourage learning. They would embrace all those humans that live in squalor outside their fortified walls and raise them up to the same status as their own citizens. They would send aid to the besieged nation of humans that is the NGR. These and so many other acts they could do but don't.

Like I said before, while the average citizens or soldiers of the Coalition States may be good, their leaders are very much so evil.

[grandmaster z0b]

I would use Atlantis but for the most part ole Spylnie just sits there. Sure he sends out little rading parties here and there but for the most part he is content to sit on Atlantis and not expand...unlike the Coalition.

It's just easyer to use the CS since you could be minding your own business and BLAM in comes a Coalition search and destroy platoon to ruin your day.

I think the CS would be seen as less evil if they actually attacked something or someone besides helpless D-bees or peacful kingdoms of magic users. Maybe if they actually cared about the rest of the human race they'd do something about the Vampire kingdoms. Of course that would require actual effort, sacrifice and risk the possibility of losing. None of which Big Daddy Prosek would dare do, he cares too much about the nice little place of power he has created for himself. Heck I still don't understand why he attacked Tolkeen of all places. It's the Federation of Magic he should have attacked. They were the ones who attack the CS so long ago. Tsk but then we run in to that whole effort, sacrifice and courage (fear of losing) thing again.

Make no mistake, the Proskes care nothing about the humans the rule over, except for how it matters to their own power. They care nothing for other humans. They demonstrated that very well by their attack on Free Quebec. They are hypocrits and cowards, power mad petty dictators whose only concern is furthering their own power. If they were even half as righteous as their propaganda, they would cease wasting valuable lives and resources in senseless attacks against nations that were no threat to them. They would teach their people and encourage learning. They would embrace all those humans that live in squalor outside their fortified walls and raise them up to the same status as their own citizens. They would send aid to the besieged nation of humans that is the NGR. These and so many other acts they could do but don't.

Like I said before, while the average citizens or soldiers of the Coalition States may be good, their leaders are very much so evil.

Well put, also remember that Prosek declared war on FQ as soon as they refused to do exactly as he dictated. Willfully slaughtering fellow humans not because they used or magic or were a threat to survival they were just a threat to him. If the CS were really interested in the safety of humanity they would have never attacked FQ, no trade embargos or diplomatic measures were even considered.
IMO FQ is a better canditate for the "anti-magic saviour of humanity", they educate their people, have a relatively free press and an army of Glitterboys, Juicers and most of the other CS goodies.

[Nxla666]

grandmaster z0b hath written:
IMO FQ is a better canditate for the "anti-magic saviour of humanity", they educate their people, have a relatively free press and an army of Glitterboys, Juicers and most of the other CS goodies



So z0b, your saying that a bunch of wannabe frenchie human supremists are better than the mainsrteam CS because the educate their people.

The fact that the are homocidal xenophobes is ok because their people arent kept ignorant.

Oh and the fact that they are isolationist probably helps, but how long before that changes.

Edit: part of the quote got left out so...there fixed, I think.

[cornholioprime]

I would use Atlantis but for the most part ole Spylnie just sits there. Sure he sends out little rading parties here and there but for the most part he is content to sit on Atlantis and not expand...unlike the Coalition.

It's just easyer to use the CS since you could be minding your own business and BLAM in comes a Coalition search and destroy platoon to ruin your day.

I think the CS would be seen as less evil if they actually attacked something or someone besides helpless D-bees or peacful kingdoms of magic users. Maybe if they actually cared about the rest of the human race they'd do something about the Vampire kingdoms. Of course that would require actual effort, sacrifice and risk the possibility of losing. None of which Big Daddy Prosek would dare do, he cares too much about the nice little place of power he has created for himself. Heck I still don't understand why he attacked Tolkeen of all places. It's the Federation of Magic he should have attacked. They were the ones who attack the CS so long ago. Tsk but then we run in to that whole effort, sacrifice and courage (fear of losing) thing again.

Make no mistake, the Proskes care nothing about the humans the rule over, except for how it matters to their own power. They care nothing for other humans. They demonstrated that very well by their attack on Free Quebec. They are hypocrits and cowards, power mad petty dictators whose only concern is furthering their own power. If they were even half as righteous as their propaganda, they would cease wasting valuable lives and resources in senseless attacks against nations that were no threat to them. They would teach their people and encourage learning. They would embrace all those humans that live in squalor outside their fortified walls and raise them up to the same status as their own citizens. They would send aid to the besieged nation of humans that is the NGR. These and so many other acts they could do but don't.

Like I said before, while the average citizens or soldiers of the Coalition States may be good, their leaders are very much so evil.

Well put, also remember that Prosek declared war on FQ as soon as they refused to do exactly as he dictated. Willfully slaughtering fellow humans not because they used or magic or were a threat to survival they were just a threat to him. If the CS were really interested in the safety of humanity they would have never attacked FQ, no trade embargos or diplomatic measures were even considered.
IMO FQ is a better canditate for the "anti-magic saviour of humanity", they educate their people, have a relatively free press and an army of Glitterboys, Juicers and most of the other CS goodies.

I agree with that.

The CS is pretty much painted as the Guys with the Black Hats; while FQ wants a Human-only Earth but not at all costs, and DEFINITELY not for any apparent desire to maintain any Imperial Dynasty....

[Toc Rat]

grandmaster z0b hath written:

IMO FQ is a better canditate for the "anti-magic saviour of humanity",

So z0b, your saying that a bunch of wannabe frenchie human supremists are better than the mainsrteam CS because the educate their people.

The fact that the are homocidal xenophobes is ok because their people arent kept ignorant.

Oh and the fact that they are isolationist probably helps, but how long before that changes.

I belive Zob was trying to say given the choice between the two, he choses learning over ignorance. That and FQ isolantionist policy means they are far less likely to wake up the proverbial "Dragon" then is the CS under Prosek rule. As long as the CS continues it's xenophobic expansionistic ways, someday, sooner or later, they will (or at least should) encounter an enemy they thought they could take but in reality couldn't.

Then again as Cornholio's sig line says, they are a blesseded, watched over nation. Perhaps they won't suffer such an occurance and will continue to attack nation after nation without any consequence.

[grandmaster z0b]

grandmaster z0b hath written:

IMO FQ is a better canditate for the "anti-magic saviour of humanity",

So z0b, your saying that a bunch of wannabe frenchie human supremists are better than the mainsrteam CS because the educate their people.

The fact that the are homocidal xenophobes is ok because their people arent kept ignorant.

Oh and the fact that they are isolationist probably helps, but how long before that changes.

What? No I never said being a homocidal xenophobe was OK.

I was simply saying that at least they're not as bad as Chi-Town.

The point I've been trying to make is that if the CS supporters are going to support a facist genocidal dictatorship on the argument "they are humanities best chance for survival" logic states you should follow FQ not Chi-town. The fact they have education and free press means that they have a much better chance of establishing a democracy and the government can be pressured to re-evalute their policies at some stage. Also the army of Glitterboys and Juicers means that the do have the military might to defend themselves just like the rest of the CS.

They do not use slavery (dog boys) and they are not as expansionistic and imperialistic as Chi-town.

Oh and what does "wannabe frenchie" mean?

[Nxla666]

Oh and what does "wannabe frenchie" mean?

Ok this is a generalization on my part but the handful of people I have meet from Quebec have all seemed like they wished they were french.

Oh and they bathed like the french (and I thought magic the gathering players were bad).

[Nxla666]

For those who like to role-play the CS, I personally think those people have aryan views(according to Nazi doctrine) a non-Jewish Caucasian person of Nordic descent. In which are a "superior race" and the CS just sings to them. For those who role-play the enemies of the CS and revolve thier campaign around it love to hate such sentiments and the CS.

Wow does this offend me, according to the criteria I am an Arayan, I do like to role play the CS and I AM NOT A NAZI!!!

I am also part German and have a great deal of pride and refuse to be held responsible for what some austrian corpral did.

[Nxla666]

I shall just simply leave this one alone, as I find myself wanting to say things that are a little harsh.

[Toc Rat]

I think we are begining to confuse reality with fantasy here. Just because someone plays Hitler in a moive doesn't mean they are members of the Neo-Nazis. Likewise someone who choses to play a CS or FQ character isn't automaticly a fascist or racist in reality.

In the interest of not having the moderators shut down this topic, let us all strive to remain focused on the issue at hand and not wander off in to arguments that will only lead to trouble.

[Toc Rat]

I shall just simply leave this one alone, as I find myself wanting to say things that are a little harsh.

[Nxla666]

Darn. Fine. Pm me instead. If you dare. Mwahahahahahahaaaaaaa.

Actually no, I am here to DEBATE on open forum, not argue behind closed doors.

[Dead Boy]

The Authors TELL YOU that the CS, at its current point in time, is definitely bad (with the ad nauseum disclaimer that the Populace serves as Useful Idiots, and that the vast majority of the Soldiers don't get to see the whole Picture). And by the way, the Authors themselves tell you that the CS really ARE jack-booted Thugs that raze defenseless Villages to the ground if they find a D-Bee in the lot...or, sometimes, even a dissenting Opinion.

Like I said, they are depicted as the bad guys because the books are written to steer the players towards that point of view. The fact that Kev is reinforcing that in the current books does not change that fact. With not too much effort they could be shown in a different light even with all pieces of evidence on display. It just depends on how you see things. And you are obviously inserting your own reasons to keep them in that negative light due to whatever aspect it is about them that raised your ire for the CS.

I really, Really, REALLY don't understand what's so gut-wrenching about just saying that the CS are (currently) THE bad guys in North America, and one of the worst Evils currently on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes, I think that some Rifts Players honestly believe that by admitting that the CS are evil in Game somehow makes the Players Neo-Nazis or something in Real Life.......

You don't see why some people might have a problem with the only bastion of American life, twisted as it may be, being the source of the greatest evil to threaten all life? You have no complaints about how it seem that the only beacons of light are under the control of heavy alien influences, and Humanity is incapable of being a force of good if left to its own devices? Buying into the notion that the CS has absolutely no redeeming qualities and is a nothing more that a blight on the Earth is akin to saying that there is no hope in your fellow man.

What's so wrong about having faith in Humanity despite its faults?

Well put, also remember that Prosek declared war on FQ as soon as they refused to do exactly as he dictated.

Yes, and he also called it off the instant he realized the folly of his egotistical action. The books even out right say that he deeply regretted the move and seeks to make amends with FQ, even if they don't trust him to be genuine. Say what you will about Prosek but there is much evidence pointing to how he genuinly cares for his fellow man... in his own way of course. Take for instance his refusal to make wide spread use of Borgs and Juicers in his army with the books stating that he did not want to squander precious Human life, even if Skelebots and power armor was more expensive and less effective.

For those who like to role-play the CS, I personally think those people have aryan views, in which, the CS just sings to them.

While I do admit to admiring the cosmetic style of the Nazis (Hugo Boss sure did make a mean uniform for them) and have to tip my hat at the military genius displayed by Romel and VonManstein, I an no more an aryan sympathizer than I am for any racist organization, white or otherwise. But since your blatant, narrow minded, myopic, slanderous remarks demand it, I'll tell you what "sings" to me about the CS. Despite all the hate-mongering, in spite of the clearly labeled evil leadership, (and what nation's government isn't "evil" to one extent or the other really), the CS is full of romantisizum. There is a certain romantic appeal to the ideal of "Humanity's last, best hope in the face of insurmountable odds and uneartly evil". Because when you get right down to it, that is the primary motivation of every CS Soldier out there... to fight tooth and nail for the promise of a better tomorrow. It may be true from a certain POV, it may be an out right lie from another. But that's what appeals to me, the romance.

And in the future, Solothurn, take it easy with the insults and flame-baiting. And failing that, take that crap over to the Sound Off board where it can be promptly ignored like it deserved to be.

[Toc Rat]

To date, you are the only one I know of that has called the CS romantic Deadboy. I've never met another player or GM in person to apply that label to them.

To each his own I guess, some people think cutting off their ear is romantic!

[Toc Rat]

I don't think anyone has said anything about not respecting the Coalition's military might. Then again you did say off-topic. Since you brought it up though, the power of the CS military is unquestioned.

A nation is very much so capable of being nasty evil and having a power house of a military, nothing in the rules against that.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have noticed that many here believe that the CS is their biggest enemy in the game. It seems everyone has run, or is running, an anti-CS campaign. So my question is why the CS?

Aren't there more evil things in the Megaverse than the Coalition? Aren't there more evil things on Rifts Earth? Isn't Melbourne worse than the CS with being exclusive? What about the anti-DB, mutant, magic, etc. policies of Free Quebec?

Daemonix? Xiticix? Lord of the Deep? Vampires? The demons pouring through the Calgary Rift? Mechanoids?

Yet, it seems sometimes there is a lot of focus on a small group of paranoid humans who live in a small spot on a small planet, who wear skull helmets.

Is it just the concept of the CS as Nazis that makes them so bad in our minds? Worse, even, than demons who eat kids? -than Satan, itself? Have we been trained so much to hate Nazis (as they are the "personification of evil in the 20th century" according to my one prof.), that we instantly focus on them to the exclusion of all else?

Will they always be the "bad guys?"

Sorry, I know I would rather avoid politics, as they so often turn messy. But these questions are worth pondering...

For those who like to role-play the CS, I personally think those people have aryan views, in which, the CS just sings to them. For those who role-play the enemies of the CS and revolve thier campaign around it love to hate such sentiments and the CS.

Uh... NO. How does a supreme white skinned, blonde haired blue eyed race have anything to do with humans destroying every invader to the child? Not Aryan more like Mongolian or American (The Indians... oh wait they weren't attacking when we slaughtered them). They aren't Aryan they aren't raceist there specioust (don't know how to spell it since it's not a word, sorry). I don't play them though and still find them at least the Proseks evil and stupid.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The Authors TELL YOU that the CS, at its current point in time, is definitely bad (with the ad nauseum disclaimer that the Populace serves as Useful Idiots, and that the vast majority of the Soldiers don't get to see the whole Picture). And by the way, the Authors themselves tell you that the CS really ARE jack-booted Thugs that raze defenseless Villages to the ground if they find a D-Bee in the lot...or, sometimes, even a dissenting Opinion.

Like I said, they are depicted as the bad guys because the books are written to steer the players towards that point of view. The fact that Kev is reinforcing that in the current books does not change that fact. With not too much effort they could be shown in a different light even with all pieces of evidence on display. It just depends on how you see things. And you are obviously inserting your own reasons to keep them in that negative light due to whatever aspect it is about them that raised your ire for the CS.

I really, Really, REALLY don't understand what's so gut-wrenching about just saying that the CS are (currently) THE bad guys in North America, and one of the worst Evils currently on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes, I think that some Rifts Players honestly believe that by admitting that the CS are evil in Game somehow makes the Players Neo-Nazis or something in Real Life.......

You don't see why some people might have a problem with the only bastion of American life, twisted as it may be, being the source of the greatest evil to threaten all life? You have no complaints about how it seem that the only beacons of light are under the control of heavy alien influences, and Humanity is incapable of being a force of good if left to its own devices? Buying into the notion that the CS has absolutely no redeeming qualities and is a nothing more that a blight on the Earth is akin to saying that there is no hope in your fellow man.

What's so wrong about having faith in Humanity despite its faults?

Well put, also remember that Prosek declared war on FQ as soon as they refused to do exactly as he dictated.

Yes, and he also called it off the instant he realized the folly of his egotistical action. The books even out right say that he deeply regretted the move and seeks to make amends with FQ, even if they don't trust him to be genuine. Say what you will about Prosek but there is much evidence pointing to how he genuinly cares for his fellow man... in his own way of course. Take for instance his refusal to make wide spread use of Borgs and Juicers in his army with the books stating that he did not want to squander precious Human life, even if Skelebots and power armor was more expensive and less effective.

For those who like to role-play the CS, I personally think those people have aryan views, in which, the CS just sings to them.

While I do admit to admiring the cosmetic style of the Nazis (Hugo Boss sure did make a mean uniform for them) and have to tip my hat at the military genius displayed by Romel and VonManstein, I an no more an aryan sympathizer than I am for any racist organization, white or otherwise. But since your blatant, narrow minded, myopic, slanderous remarks demand it, I'll tell you what "sings" to me about the CS. Despite all the hate-mongering, in spite of the clearly labeled evil leadership, (and what nation's government isn't "evil" to one extent or the other really), the CS is full of romantisizum. There is a certain romantic appeal to the ideal of "Humanity's last, best hope in the face of insurmountable odds and uneartly evil". Because when you get right down to it, that is the primary motivation of every CS Soldier out there... to fight tooth and nail for the promise of a better tomorrow. It may be true from a certain POV, it may be an out right lie from another. But that's what appeals to me, the romance.

And in the future, Solothurn, take it easy with the insults and flame-baiting. And failing that, take that crap over to the Sound Off board where it can be promptly ignored like it deserved to be.

Don't make me laugh. I must say, you are a true propagandist. Reversing the truth about the CS and how the authors portrayed it, romantising the CS while also stating your liking of the CS and Nazi style of uniform and military genius , then accusing me of blatant, narrow minded, myopic, slanderous remarks. Ausgezeichnet Soldat! Carry on.

narrow minded sounds like it to me

[Zer0 Kay]

The Authors TELL YOU that the CS, at its current point in time, is definitely bad (with the ad nauseum disclaimer that the Populace serves as Useful Idiots, and that the vast majority of the Soldiers don't get to see the whole Picture). And by the way, the Authors themselves tell you that the CS really ARE jack-booted Thugs that raze defenseless Villages to the ground if they find a D-Bee in the lot...or, sometimes, even a dissenting Opinion.

Like I said, they are depicted as the bad guys because the books are written to steer the players towards that point of view. The fact that Kev is reinforcing that in the current books does not change that fact. With not too much effort they could be shown in a different light even with all pieces of evidence on display. It just depends on how you see things. And you are obviously inserting your own reasons to keep them in that negative light due to whatever aspect it is about them that raised your ire for the CS.

I really, Really, REALLY don't understand what's so gut-wrenching about just saying that the CS are (currently) THE bad guys in North America, and one of the worst Evils currently on Rifts Earth.

Sometimes, I think that some Rifts Players honestly believe that by admitting that the CS are evil in Game somehow makes the Players Neo-Nazis or something in Real Life.......

You don't see why some people might have a problem with the only bastion of American life, twisted as it may be, being the source of the greatest evil to threaten all life? You have no complaints about how it seem that the only beacons of light are under the control of heavy alien influences, and Humanity is incapable of being a force of good if left to its own devices? Buying into the notion that the CS has absolutely no redeeming qualities and is a nothing more that a blight on the Earth is akin to saying that there is no hope in your fellow man.

What's so wrong about having faith in Humanity despite its faults?

Well put, also remember that Prosek declared war on FQ as soon as they refused to do exactly as he dictated.

Yes, and he also called it off the instant he realized the folly of his egotistical action. The books even out right say that he deeply regretted the move and seeks to make amends with FQ, even if they don't trust him to be genuine. Say what you will about Prosek but there is much evidence pointing to how he genuinly cares for his fellow man... in his own way of course. Take for instance his refusal to make wide spread use of Borgs and Juicers in his army with the books stating that he did not want to squander precious Human life, even if Skelebots and power armor was more expensive and less effective.

For those who like to role-play the CS, I personally think those people have aryan views, in which, the CS just sings to them.

While I do admit to admiring the cosmetic style of the Nazis (Hugo Boss sure did make a mean uniform for them) and have to tip my hat at the military genius displayed by Romel and VonManstein, I an no more an aryan sympathizer than I am for any racist organization, white or otherwise. But since your blatant, narrow minded, myopic, slanderous remarks demand it, I'll tell you what "sings" to me about the CS. Despite all the hate-mongering, in spite of the clearly labeled evil leadership, (and what nation's government isn't "evil" to one extent or the other really), the CS is full of romantisizum. There is a certain romantic appeal to the ideal of "Humanity's last, best hope in the face of insurmountable odds and uneartly evil". Because when you get right down to it, that is the primary motivation of every CS Soldier out there... to fight tooth and nail for the promise of a better tomorrow. It may be true from a certain POV, it may be an out right lie from another. But that's what appeals to me, the romance.

And in the future, Solothurn, take it easy with the insults and flame-baiting. And failing that, take that crap over to the Sound Off board where it can be promptly ignored like it deserved to be.

Sure as a soldier it may be but higher officers aren't especially when you get up to the inner circle.

[Janus]

the CS are the heroes of the masses. They accept all humans into their folds. So they stamp out literacy, with where the country is going now it is an inevitable anyway. So they want to kill DBs in how many other games do we play in where the DB is the villian and we wish to take them out. How many of us in real life would not kill the troll talking to our families cause we just knew he was a monster. nope the CS rock, they are heroes, they will get America back to where it should be.

[Zer0 Kay]

the CS are the heroes of the masses. They accept all humans into their folds. So they stamp out literacy, with where the country is going now it is an inevitable anyway. So they want to kill DBs in how many other games do we play in where the DB is the villian and we wish to take them out. How many of us in real life would not kill the troll talking to our families cause we just knew he was a monster. nope the CS rock, they are heroes, they will get America back to where it should be.

Uh mages are humans. As are those who accept D-bees but they kill both of those. Psionicists are humans two but there treated like dogs... not dogboys but dogs. Yeah I kill things just because there talking to my family and there ugly... guess you better not come around. Guess some people will never not judge something by it's cover.

[Toc Rat]

the CS are the heroes of the masses. They accept all humans into their folds. nope the CS rock, they are heroes, they will get America back to where it should be.

Incorrect, the CS most certainly does NOT accept all humans. If you are a magic user and 100% human, you will be terminated upon sight. If you are 100% and from a world other then Rifts Earth, you will be labeled a D-bee and terminated upon discovery. If you are 100% human, born on Rifts Earth and disagree with the Proseks you will be labeled a dangerous traitor and ruthlessly hunted down and executed.

The only thing the CS has in common with the USA is that it sits on North America. Other then that they are the epitome of everything the United States of America (which I serve) hates and fights against.

Even they (the CS) knows this, that's why they fly the Coalition State flag instead of the US flag. If you want to talk about a nation fighting for the rights of all humans and living by the American ideals, look not to the CS but to the New Navy instead. At least they still fly the US flag!

[Zer0 Kay]

the CS are the heroes of the masses. They accept all humans into their folds. nope the CS rock, they are heroes, they will get America back to where it should be.

Incorrect, the CS most certainly does NOT accept all humans. If you are a magic user and 100% human, you will be terminated upon sight. If you are 100% and from a world other then Rifts Earth, you will be labeled a D-bee and terminated upon discovery. If you are 100% human, born on Rifts Earth and disagree with the Proseks you will be labeled a dangerous traitor and ruthlessly hunted down and executed.

The only thing the CS has in common with the USA is that it sits on North America. Other then that they are the epitome of everything the United States of America (which I serve) hates and fights against.

Even they (the CS) knows this, that's why they fly the Coalition State flag instead of the US flag. If you want to talk about a nation fighting for the rights of all humans and living by the American ideals, look not to the CS but to the New Navy instead. At least they still fly the US flag!

Hey... how many stars are on the New Navy's flag? How many was on the U.S. flag durring the time of NEMA?

The CS has a few other simularities with the U.S.

People live in the state, they live in houses, they eat food and drink water... I think it stops there though.

[Toc Rat]

The CS has a few other simularities with the U.S.

People live in the state, they live in houses, they eat food and drink water... I think it stops there though.[/quote]



Sad but very true I think

[Zer0 Kay]

The CS has a few other simularities with the U.S.

People live in the state, they live in houses, they eat food and drink water... I think it stops there though.

Sad but very true I think[/quote]

Oh wait, wait they probably reproduce, deficate and sleep too.

[Vrykolas2k]

the CS are the heroes of the masses. They accept all humans into their folds. nope the CS rock, they are heroes, they will get America back to where it should be.

Incorrect, the CS most certainly does NOT accept all humans. If you are a magic user and 100% human, you will be terminated upon sight. If you are 100% and from a world other then Rifts Earth, you will be labeled a D-bee and terminated upon discovery. If you are 100% human, born on Rifts Earth and disagree with the Proseks you will be labeled a dangerous traitor and ruthlessly hunted down and executed.

The only thing the CS has in common with the USA is that it sits on North America. Other then that they are the epitome of everything the United States of America (which I serve) hates and fights against.

Even they (the CS) knows this, that's why they fly the Coalition State flag instead of the US flag. If you want to talk about a nation fighting for the rights of all humans and living by the American ideals, look not to the CS but to the New Navy instead. At least they still fly the US flag!

Exactly.