JA-12 laser rifle

[SoulofThunder]

why does this weapon lose its strike bonus when pulse blasting? its a fricking laser beam!

[The Galactus Kid]

because I said so.


actually, because it's still a burst.

[SoulofThunder]

why does a burst from a laser make any difference? its a laser beam. no recoil.

[Danger]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

[SoulofThunder]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

[Danger]

I don't know how better to explain it to ya bro. You're just losing accuracy in favor of damage. Thems the breaks.

[Dustin Fireblade]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

It's a game balence issue. KS didn't want people hitting others with their full bonus on a burst/pulse shot.

[SoulofThunder]

i suppose. not in my game. going thru my old books, theres alot of stuff i gotta "houserule". too bad alot of it will be in the players favor.

a laser rifle that has recoil related penalties is dumb.

[SoulofThunder]

ok, let me explain how i see a laser weapons firing "mechanism". there isnt one. a laser weapons ( or maybe most energy weapons) trigger is more an on/off switch than a release to pop a spring and drop a hammer. an on/off switch is much easier to action than a 5-7 pound pull on a slugtosser.

those who have used joystick triggers , how easy is it to pull the trigger of these devices? not much vibration there is it?

[Noon]

I'd put it down to the beam taking longer. Your putting out more energy, you can only put out so much per second...a pulse takes longer.

Which means a target might have moved out of your aim before the full amount of energy is delivered by the laser.

To model that properly you'd need to use the normal bonus to see if you did normal damage, and the penalty score applied to the same roll to see if you did full pulse damage. That's pretty clunky to do though.

[Qev]

Of course lasers have recoil!

[SoulofThunder]

[SoulofThunder]

thanks , atleast someone is feeling my pain.

[Qev]

Well, personally, I'm of the opinion that bursts should get a bonus to hit, and reduced damage; and aimed shots should get a penalty to hit, but a bonus to damage...

But hey, I'm a dog. My opinion is wrong anyway.

By the way... do I have to pay admission for your sig?

[jedi078]

Well, personally, I'm of the opinion that bursts should get a bonus to hit, and reduced damage; and aimed shots should get a penalty to hit, but a bonus to damage...

makes sense that way don't it..

A good way to do it is a burst has no bonus (straight dice roll), and you roll to see how many rounds hit.

An aimed shot would have bonuses.

In regards to pulse weapons, if the pulse fires quickly then there should not be a penalty to strike. The REAL benefit of using energy weapon comes out at last....

[Killer Cyborg]

Since a the shots in a laser pulse are only a microsecond apart, to the point that it looks like a single beam, there is no good reason to lose the strike bonus.
But them's the rules.

[RockJock]

Some BS about the crystals heating and expanding or some other BS as a reason.

[Jefffar]

Or . . . you could do what I do with pulse and burst wapons.

For every point your strike beats the numeber required to hit the target (which depends on range and if the target tries to dodge or has cover) you score 1 hit, upto the maximum number of shots the weapon fired in the burst.

For medium burtsts (upto 20 rounds) I make it double hits and for longer bursts I make it quintupple hits.

You can combine the aimed shot bonus (including the aforementioned +1 on an aimed shot for the JA-12) with bursts if you like as well. However setting up an aimed shot requires a melee action before you fire. If you have the sniper skill, you can add that bonus too,but that requires a nother melee action to set up.

Make sense?

[Qev]

Call it BS if you want, but since I have to check expansion coefficents to make sure that the insulators dont crack on the probes I stick in the plasma rocket I work with, and since I have gotten an M60 so hot I couldnt target cause of the heat shimmer off the barrel, I do think that heat would be a big problem for most energy weapons.

You need to aim using an M60?




One note against the 'laser pulses are so fast they shouldn't get a penalty' argument, while lasers (well, light) travel practically instantaneously to their target, this is irrelevant. What matters is the weapon's cycle time between pulses. If the weapon is capable of firing one laser pulse every fifth of a second, then in order for all pulses of a three-pulse burst to hit the exact same point on the target, you'll have to hold it absolutely rock-steady for more than half a second.

At a range of 100m, a variance of just one degree in your aim means a spread of almost 2m. Now, you've got to have pretty shaky hands to get a full degree off in your aim, but still...

[Borast]

why does this weapon lose its strike bonus when pulse blasting? its a fricking laser beam!

'Cause Kevin Said So...

Mind you...considering a Laser Weapon has a range to the horizon, a projectile moving the speed of a boom gun projectile will move a lot more than 1 mile before hitting the ground...etc.

Oh, and then there's the big finisher...the nuclear warhead on a Long Range Missile has a blast radius such that an unprotected human just barely outside the listed blast radius will take ZERO damage!

It doesn't have to make sense...it's the rules.
However, feel free to grouse about it...we do!

[Kagashi]

Stop trying to bring reality into Palladium games. It just makes your head hurt. Enjoy it for what it is.

Are you guys critical of Star Wars when ships make those cool sounds in space? Not really. So why complain about how lasers work and just assume that a burst is a burst, a single shot is a single shot, and a Triax pump pistol falls under the Grenade Launcher WP...opps wrong post, but it still applies

[Killer Cyborg]

Stop trying to bring reality into Palladium games. It just makes your head hurt. Enjoy it for what it is.

Frankly, I'm always a bit offended when people imply that "reality" or logic are somehow mutually exclusive from Palladium's games.
Their games have many realistic aspects, and a number of unrealistic aspects.
People just try to get things balanced to their own personal level of acceptability.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

You loose accuracy because lasers make no noise.

Now let me explain this, you see, when you fire the JA12 your character automatically goes: "Pshooo" or "Zap" or "Bang", etc, to make up for the lack of noise. Making such sounds in rapid succession throws off his or her accuracy.

~ Josh ( )

[Colt47]

Ok, you don't get a bonus on the pulse shot because you have to keep the extended beam pinned on the target. It's not recoil related at all. The guy is trying to avoid your shots.

[Danger]

Ok, you don't get a bonus on the pulse shot because you have to keep the extended beam pinned on the target. It's not recoil related at all. The guy is trying to avoid your shots.

I stated earlier that it was accuracy related. Still sticking with my original story.

Putting three shots that are fired so closely together on the same target cannot be easy. Thus, there is a small penalty.

[Danger]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

Experienced snipers generally use single shot weapons. Not automatic firing weapons.

[Kagashi]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

Experienced snipers generally use single shot weapons. Not automatic firing weapons.

Doesn't it say in the description that the pulses are so close together it might as well be a single shot? I remember reading that somewhere and I dont have my books on hand so I might be wrong. I might have read that on the message boards too...

[Colt47]

You know, it's better to just use a NE-H7 heavy cartridge sniper rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

Experienced snipers generally use single shot weapons. Not automatic firing weapons.

Doesn't it say in the description that the pulses are so close together it might as well be a single shot?

Yes.

[Danger]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

Experienced snipers generally use single shot weapons. Not automatic firing weapons.

Doesn't it say in the description that the pulses are so close together it might as well be a single shot?

Yes.

But it isn't.

We have weapons today that fire so fast it sounds like only one shot is being fired, but they're really doing short bursts. Same thing.

The penalty still applies.

[SoulofThunder]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

how? with one trigger squeeze you put out 3 shots and once again. LASERS HAVE NO RECOIL!!! even if you had to feather the trigger, there would be no loss in accuracy for an experienced sniper.

Experienced snipers generally use single shot weapons. Not automatic firing weapons.

Doesn't it say in the description that the pulses are so close together it might as well be a single shot?

Yes.

But it isn't.

We have weapons today that fire so fast it sounds like only one shot is being fired, but they're really doing short bursts. Same thing.

The penalty still applies.

if that laser has a selector , then there shouldnt be any penalty. you keep making the mistake of comparing this to a chemical slug thrower. the theory and operation are completely different.

bursts have a better chance it hitting in reality and careful aimed shots hit critical areas ( doing greater "damage"). but this isnt reflective in the game for balance. i can accept that.

[Zer0 Kay]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

Lets try WHY even by the book it states that the pulse appears as one beam. So if you don't actually have to pull and release the trigger (which would through off aim) then all pulses hit the same target without moving and before you can even breath... or exhale (which is the opposite of your trigger pull state) so it doesn't matter. Even if Rifts lasers did produce recoil there is examples of how fast cyclic rates (I'd consider pulsed lasers with each pulse following yactoseconds behind the previous) won't cause a kick until the last round is out of the barrel. The H&K G-11 fires a three round burst much slower than that and the kick from the burst isn't felt until the third round is already out of the barrel.

[Danger]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

Lets try WHY even by the book it states that the pulse appears as one beam. So if you don't actually have to pull and release the trigger (which would through off aim) then all pulses hit the same target without moving and before you can even breath... or exhale (which is the opposite of your trigger pull state) so it doesn't matter. Even if Rifts lasers did produce recoil there is examples of how fast cyclic rates (I'd consider pulsed lasers with each pulse following yactoseconds behind the previous) won't cause a kick until the last round is out of the barrel. The H&K G-11 fires a three round burst much slower than that and the kick from the burst isn't felt until the third round is already out of the barrel.

Why are people still trying to argue to get their full bonus to strike with a pulse?

[Zer0 Kay]

It has nothing to do with recoil. It's targeting. You're still trying to hit a single target with more than one shot. Thus, you lose some accuracy.

Lets try WHY even by the book it states that the pulse appears as one beam. So if you don't actually have to pull and release the trigger (which would through off aim) then all pulses hit the same target without moving and before you can even breath... or exhale (which is the opposite of your trigger pull state) so it doesn't matter. Even if Rifts lasers did produce recoil there is examples of how fast cyclic rates (I'd consider pulsed lasers with each pulse following yactoseconds behind the previous) won't cause a kick until the last round is out of the barrel. The H&K G-11 fires a three round burst much slower than that and the kick from the burst isn't felt until the third round is already out of the barrel.

Why are people still trying to argue to get their full bonus to strike with a pulse?

I'm not, I'm just saying that the lack of bonus has nothing to do with the pulse or the shooter. Maybe the electronic scope bugs out and looses power due to the higher power consumption.

[glitterboy2098]

damage wise..
perhaps power from an E-clip is routed through a capacitor first, and a single shot uses, say, 1/2 the capacitor normally, but a 3 shot burst uses 1/3rd each. (draws power too fast for the capacitor to keep up)
thus, damage from a bursts 3 shots =2 single shots worth of damage
(this would also allow you to fire a shot or two even if the E-clip is removed)
thus the weapons that do triple damage on a 3 shot burst just have a better capacitor.


as for targeting....hmm....perhaps energy rifles have a built in "vibration adjuster" in the laser optics to compensate for things like the users pulse, breathing, ect. bringing it to the level of a normal weapon. (thus more user freindly)
a burst happens so fast, the adjuster can't compensate enough, thus making it less accurate.

[Richter]

You loose accuracy because lasers make no noise.

Now let me explain this, you see, when you fire the JA12 your character automatically goes: "Pshooo" or "Zap" or "Bang", etc, to make up for the lack of noise. Making such sounds in rapid succession throws off his or her accuracy.

~ Josh ( )

This is all I needed to hear, I think this conversation is over, and answered, 100% accurately!

[Rimmer]

You loose accuracy because lasers make no noise.

Now let me explain this, you see, when you fire the JA12 your character automatically goes: "Pshooo" or "Zap" or "Bang", etc, to make up for the lack of noise. Making such sounds in rapid succession throws off his or her accuracy.

~ Josh ( )

This is all I needed to hear, I think this conversation is over, and answered, 100% accurately!

I think you missed the point, it was meant to be less accurate
Personally i prefer "pinggggy"

[Qev]

How about this? The ionization effects in the air caused by the first laser pulse tend to deflect the subsequent pulses, making them less accurate?

I just made that up.

[Noon]

Since a the shots in a laser pulse are only a microsecond apart, to the point that it looks like a single beam, there is no good reason to lose the strike bonus.
But them's the rules.

Shouldn't that be "I think the shots in a laser pulse are only a microsecond apart,"

[Killer Cyborg]

Since a the shots in a laser pulse are only a microsecond apart, to the point that it looks like a single beam, there is no good reason to lose the strike bonus.
But them's the rules.

Shouldn't that be "I think the shots in a laser pulse are only a microsecond apart,"

Surprisingly enough, you might just be correct.
KS thinks that a pulse is a burst of "instantaneous energy pulses" that happen "so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast" (RUE, p. 361), and as "simultaneous shots."
But I can't find the passage that I remember stating that the pulses were a microsecond apart... so I guess they are actually simultaneous.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wow. A simultaneous pulse from a single charging chamber and capacitor, that can somehow focus three separate pulses of high-intesity energy through a single focusing lens in one shot. An not blow the whole thing apart from the attempt.

*Boots the laws of physics out the door*

I work with lasers all the time. Trying something like this would not only blow the entire assemply to pieces, but shatter the lenses, burn out the capacitor, frag all the control circuitry, and if standing close enough, kill you with very, VERY high voltage electricity in the process.

And since this a RIFLE we're talking about, it'll be either on your hip or next to you skull when you set it off.

Bye-bye. Make a new character.

Can you make a laser rifle of the kind of power the JA-12 is supposed to be capable of?
Probably not.
Obviously, the tech in Rifts uses technology so advanced that our puny minds cannot comprehend how it works; we see the physics of it as impossible, even stupid.... yet it somehow works....

(Translation: Doesn't make any sense to me either)

[Killer Cyborg]

I dunno, the industrial lasers I work with on a daily basis can cut 1 inch steel at a speed of about six feet per minute. Thats pretty intense.

It is a 20000 volt laser that pumps out 1.5 mega-ohms at 6.3 amps. It's a beast.

I think the JA-12 is this thing...scaled down to rifle size. Yikes.

1. Neat!
2. Well, a "solid metal door" has 600 SDC... I'm not sure how thick that is supposed to be, but let's call it an inch... and let's say that the door is 6' tall.
That would mean that it would take your laser beam 4 melees to cut through it lengthwise, if I understand things correctly, which would mean that it dishes out about 150 SDC damage per melee round. Assuming average number of attacks per melee at 5, that means it does about 30 SDC per attack or "shot".

Or we could break it down using the Burst rules, assuming a full-melee burst. In that case, 150 SDC damage per melee would work out to about 15 SDC per shot... which seems light.

But say that Palladium's "solid metal door" is only 1/2 inch thick.
Then your laser does double that; about 300 SDC per melee (30-60 SDC per shot, depending on how you figure it).... that's still only 3 MD per melee.

The JA-12 can dish out 4d6 MD per shot, for an average of 14 MD per shot. That works out to about 70 MD per melee, assuming the same average of 5 attacks per melee as I did above with the industrial laser.
70 MD per melee would mean that it can dish out 280 MD per minute on average.... significantly more than the industrial laser, even with the larger damage number.

[Danger]

Wow. A simultaneous pulse from a single charging chamber and capacitor, that can somehow focus three separate pulses of high-intesity energy through a single focusing lens in one shot. An not blow the whole thing apart from the attempt.

*Boots the laws of physics out the door*

I work with lasers all the time. Trying something like this would not only blow the entire assemply to pieces, but shatter the lenses, burn out the capacitor, frag all the control circuitry, and if standing close enough, kill you with very, VERY high voltage electricity in the process.

And since this a RIFLE we're talking about, it'll be either on your hip or next to you skull when you set it off.

Bye-bye. Make a new character.

Can you make a laser rifle of the kind of power the JA-12 is supposed to be capable of?
Probably not.
Obviously, the tech in Rifts uses technology so advanced that our puny minds cannot comprehend how it works; we see the physics of it as impossible, even stupid.... yet it somehow works....

(Translation: Doesn't make any sense to me either)

Exactly! The physics of this doesn't make any sense to us. So why are we questioning the penalty for the burst? Just because it doesn't make sense?



Ignore physics 'as we know it'. Keep the penalty. It's there for reasons that we cannot comprehend.

Game on!

[Kagashi]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

[Danger]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

[Killer Cyborg]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

Not if you cop out and give him a partial suit of Plastic Man.

[Kalinda]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

The vagabond in RUE is totaly munchkin, they get armor for cripes sakes! In my day we played unarmored vagabonds with sharp sticks and we liked it!

[Rimmerdal]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

The vagabond in RUE is totaly munchkin, they get armor for cripes sakes! In my day we played unarmored vagabonds with sharp sticks and we liked it!

Now they have sharp sticks AND Tupperware body armor...Progress is funny isn't it?

[Kagashi]

Did you guys know that magic is not real? Yet we pretend it is real when we play this game....

How is that different to just accepting that the darn weapon breaks the laws of physics in our real world, but it makes perfect sense in Palladium?

This weapon sucks anyway. Its just a laser that does a lot of damage. Its a ROLL playing weapon. Not a ROLE playing weapon. Challange yourself and make a vagabond with the cooking skill (as presented in the latest Rifter...cool skill by the way) armed with nothing but a Wilks laser pistol, an SDC knife in your boot, a .22 derringer, and a partial suit of Plastic man armor (just the chest plate). Oh yea, and a spatula. Now thats role playing!

The vagabond in RUE is totaly munchkin, they get armor for cripes sakes! In my day we played unarmored vagabonds with sharp sticks and we liked it!

Now they have sharp sticks AND Tupperware body armor...Progress is funny isn't it?

I didn't check. Do they still get the candy and the soap?

[Qev]

The vagabond in RUE is totaly munchkin, they get armor for cripes sakes! In my day we played unarmored vagabonds with sharp sticks and we liked it!

My GM was generous and let me trade my pointed stick for a rock and a wet-paper-towel armor breastplate.