Lvl 15 Ley Line Walker vs. Glitter Boy

[Nightmask]

I think you need to put on your reading glasses sir, I'm lloking at the description of Tm Operation and it explicitly states that it "does not work on artificially intelligent machines(i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc.)" It's right there in black and white on pg. 44 of Psyscape. Of course your prining may have had that removed, i cannot say. All I know is what MY book says and it does NOT agree with what everyone else is saying. TM Possession, however, DOES work on A.I.s from the skelebot up to Archie 3.
I stand partially corrected, TM possession does indeed list empty power armor. But that is also quite specific inthat it is EMPTY POWER ARMOR, nothing is mentioned about possessing PA while the pilot is operating it.
So I admit the error of my initial assumptions regarding TM Possesion (but ONLY TM Possession), I had apparently missed that little paragraph in the middle of the description.
I formally apologize.

It doesn't list empty power armor, it lists power armor. TM Possession (I have been careful to state TM Possession) considers anything without an AI or neural linked to a living creature as a simple machine, a human in a PA or robot isn't linked to it he's just moving switches and relays no different than those of a laser rifle. Without an intelligence inside it or part of it in some fashion power armor has no defenses to being possessed and controlled. And no that's how it reads whether it was my character in the PA or my character trying to take over a power armor.

Of course since players rarely like their characters being possessed/controlled it's not surprising there are few powers to do that with, like TM Possession. One likes at least a chance of winning not 'the bad guy just possessed your PA, froze the systems, and is opening it up so his buddies can gun you down once the armor's off'. For which I can understand that as a motivation for house-ruling things so if the PC is in the armor running it so someone can't just lock him up and such, but it also means if your PA pilot is knocked unconscious his Psi-Tech partner can't possess the armor and use it while he's down for the count so they can both survive.

No need to apologize for misreading the text, we all do it from time to time.

[keir451]

I think you need to put on your reading glasses sir, I'm lloking at the description of Tm Operation and it explicitly states that it "does not work on artificially intelligent machines(i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc.)" It's right there in black and white on pg. 44 of Psyscape. Of course your prining may have had that removed, i cannot say. All I know is what MY book says and it does NOT agree with what everyone else is saying. TM Possession, however, DOES work on A.I.s from the skelebot up to Archie 3.
I stand partially corrected, TM possession does indeed list empty power armor. But that is also quite specific inthat it is EMPTY POWER ARMOR, nothing is mentioned about possessing PA while the pilot is operating it.
So I admit the error of my initial assumptions regarding TM Possesion (but ONLY TM Possession), I had apparently missed that little paragraph in the middle of the description.
I formally apologize.

It doesn't list empty power armor, it lists power armor. TM Possession (I have been careful to state TM Possession) considers anything without an AI or neural linked to a living creature as a simple machine, a human in a PA or robot isn't linked to it he's just moving switches and relays no different than those of a laser rifle. Without an intelligence inside it or part of it in some fashion power armor has no defenses to being possessed and controlled. And no that's how it reads whether it was my character in the PA or my character trying to take over a power armor.

Of course since players rarely like their characters being possessed/controlled it's not surprising there are few powers to do that with, like TM Possession. One likes at least a chance of winning not 'the bad guy just possessed your PA, froze the systems, and is opening it up so his buddies can gun you down once the armor's off'. For which I can understand that as a motivation for house-ruling things so if the PC is in the armor running it so someone can't just lock him up and such, but it also means if your PA pilot is knocked unconscious his Psi-Tech partner can't possess the armor and use it while he's down for the count so they can both survive.

No need to apologize for misreading the text, we all do it from time to time.

I thank you for your understanding. However I'm not sure of the print in your edition, but both my RUE and Psyscape specifically mention "empty power armor". My Psyscape is 2nd Printing Aug, 1999, and my RUE is 1st printing Aug. 2005.
And given Kevin's penchant for cut & paste editing, I doubt it was a misprint as both descriptions have exactly the same wording.
I dislike it because I don't like the idea of soem munchkin deciding he can remotely open up my PA and rip me apart "like a wishbone" it smacks of "Hah! I can pown your @$$ even if you're in Power armor." in pothers words, just plain cheap.
As I've said, before these "cheap" abilities came out there was limit to psychics and that limit was the could not affect someone inside enviromentally sealed PA or robot vehilces, nor could they possess them.
So I choose to ingnore that section or at the very least confine it to empty PA or robot vehicles, but I also say that if the power plant is not actively up and running then you cannot possess it. Or the pilot can turn off the power thus ending the possession attempt and then kill the offending psychic as he should be easy to spot as he has to be within touch range or 10 ft. per level, so a max of 150 ft. Easily within any PA or Robot weapon system.
Besides wasn't this post about a 15th level LLW vs a GB? Not a psionic vs anything. In either case my money is still on the PA or robot pilot as I still do not see the efficacy of magic vs any PA or robot and I've run Magic creatures and mages vs PA & robots many times and I've found the magic user always loses as his spells just don't do enough damage.

[Lenwen]

OK. Granted. Nonetheless MY interpretation of what was written in the books says otherwise.

As was pointed out .. your personal interpretation of the rules = house rule.

There was nothing in the books that stated that power armor was affected by TM possession.

The power itself said so ..

So in the end all I can really say is "Won't work in MY game".

House rules don't hold anything on the forum .. when speaking about the game mechanic's

[dragonfett]

The power of Telemechanics Possession states that the psychic overrides the programming/controls of the device, therefore meaning the the pilot no longer has the ability to control the GB unless the psychic allows him to do so. The only thing that might, I stress MIGHT let him prevent it (i.e. roll a saving throw) is if the pilot was hooked into the GB via a headjack, but that would mean GB would have to modified to accept controls.

I can't remember where I had seen it, but I recall seeing somewhere that psionics affects people with in body armor/power armor so long as the amount of the main body is less than 250 (which the Samson would qualify as it has Main Body 240 MDC), and I recall seeing that rule like about seven years ago or so. Question 51 on the same FAQ states Body Armor yes, Power Armor no (which I find funny because there are some Power Armors that have less MDC than that of body armors)

And as for the technicality on the FAQ, the psionic power of Telemechanics doesn't allow for the control of machines, only knowledge of it. Telemechanics Mental Operation allows for the psychic to do the do the whole "Look ma, no hands" bit, but not overriding the programming and/or controls (he would take a -30 penalty to operate the power armor in this case). Telemechanics Possession transfers the psychic's essence (I think that this is the correct term, please don't flame me about that if you understand what I am trying to convey here, I am having a momentary cerebral flatulation) into the machine, allowing him to completely override the programming/controls of the GB. So while the person only said telemechanics, Keven obviously understood that the question was in reference to the other telemechanics powers that allow for the mental control of machines (that, or he just ascribed a new function to an old power that completely makes the other three newer powers completely pointless. I am going to guess the former instead of the later).

It took me re-reading the power when the reference of the "empty power armor" was mentioned before I spotted it, however I would still allow it to work on a suit of power armor with a pilot in it, however I would at least call for a saving throw and/or a perception roll on the pilot in this case (especially if the said pilot was one of the PC's in the group). That would be more for the "can you react in time to do anything to stop the psychic" type deal, which in this case, the only thing that you could do is shut the main power off if you rolled good enough, if not, then the psychic has control of your power armor. Now if this happens to a PC in my group, I will have the enemy psychic at least give them a chance to surrender. The smart player, realizing that he main advantage has been not only taken away but can be turned against his own group, would take the surrender.

[Nightmask]

Yes the thread's regarding a Ley Line Walker vs a Glitter Boy, but it's not much of a contest as it's weighted in favor of the Ley Line Walker. He's got infinite PPE available courtesy of the Ley Line, the Glitter Boy is in an open area easily seen while the Ley Line Walker has cover courtesy of the forest, and the Ley Line Walker has all Incantations. Such a character with little threat to himself can use Invisibility (Superior) to get close enough without being detected to cast an Annihilate Spell (maybe two) and quickly destroy the Glitter Boy without much challenge.

With regards to the 'What about the Glitter Boy vs the master psionic?' again if it's a Psychic with Telemechanic Possession and good cover there's a good chance the Psychic can get into range, completely possess the Glitter Boy and kill the pilot without difficulty. The factors weight heavily in the psychic's favor like that. But it's a common problem of such comparisons as frequently the challenges are weighted heavily in favor of one or the other either because of a perceived weakness on the part of the one being weighted in favor of or because it's a favorite and they want it having the best in its favor.

[dragonfett]

Oh and the whole thing about a 15th level Mind Melter came about after someone had made the observation that we had already determined that 15th level LLW could take out a GB very easily, and that a 1st level LLW had a chance to take out a GB pilot (so long as luck was on his side and he had the right spells) and that someone had made the comment along the lines of making it more challenging or something like that, so I had suggested a 15th level Burster or Mind Melter.

[Shark_Force]

Oh and the whole thing about a 15th level Mind Melter came about after someone had made the observation that we had already determined that 15th level LLW could take out a GB very easily, and that a 1st level LLW had a chance to take out a GB pilot (so long as luck was on his side and he had the right spells) and that someone had made the comment along the lines of making it more challenging or something like that, so I had suggested a 15th level Burster or Mind Melter.

yeah. the burster would be a *really* hard one to pull off.

about the only way i could imagine it working is if the burster is assumed to have non-standard starting gear (potentially up to and/or including a small army of robot minions), or friends (like a level 15 ley line walker that knows all spells). but who knows, maybe it's possible.

[dragonfett]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

[Franfrickle]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

The adventure begins again. Shark_force was the one that initially sugested Telemechanic Possession but dependent on being within physical range, thats when I suggested using it thru Astral Projection since it doesn't require that the psychic need to physically touch it, there by increasing the range from his physical body to the GB to be abit more safe and to keep the GB from being aware that the psychic was in the area.

RUE pg.271 near bottom of 4th paragragh, A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact.

Telemechanic Possession does enable a person to completely rule that heavily armored tank or 50 ft Robot vehicle or 11 ft PA and almost anyother machine as long as it has a working currently running powersource and isn't TW enchanted or cybernetically linked as some Russian pilots do with there PA's and a good chance at AI's aslong as they fail there saves. I like this quote for situations such as these from one of the Star Wars movies

Qui-Gon Jinn: There's always a bigger fish.

That goes to mean that no single thing is without its weakness or superior. There are always variables in a game that can effect anything and spell their doom. If I was the GM of a game where a scenario such as this came about and a PC was the GB and the MM was an enemy NPC then I wouldn't try to use something like this unless I felt the need to teach the GB a little humility in that he isn't all high and mighty. But if I was a PC MM and my GM pitted me against a GB then I would play it out as I mentioned in my last posting on the 2nd pg of this forum in which I used a little more creativity and thought to effectively roleplay it.

Yeah I could technically while possessing the PA repeatedly bash the GB's head in till he's dead or reach in thru the entry/escape hatch and pull the character out and rip him in half like a wishbone, but that could humiliate the GM (might not, the GM might get a kick out of it, I sure as hell would as long as it didn't go against there Alignment) as it would most definitely if the GM did it to a PC GB that wasn't deserving of it. Some unknown factors during game play that could spell disastor for the MM while AP'd and TPing the GB PA would be a set roll % range chart for chance encounter example:00-10% patrol finds body and attempt to rouse the character then take him in for questioning, 11-15% carnivorous animal finds body and decides its an easy treat, 16-20% entinty passing the body notices it's an empty shell..., 25-100% nothing happens to the body while MM is AP'd. There is a lot of things that could happen and as for the GB Pilot, as a GM I would let him Roll a Perception roll to determine if he noticed the MM TMing his armor when the contact is being made and if he did then roll a knowledge skill roll to see if he could determine what it might be, if he was able to determine it then this is where Initiative rolls come in, but if he fails the initiative roll or fails his perception roll then the MM would from that point effectively have complete control over every function of the PA, and even if he made the rolls and had initiative then depending on what his 1st actions were ie: decided to look for the MM instead of just shutting the armor down, well then the MM still might be incontrol of the armor by his 1st action and do whatever within its limits he wants to it for the duration of the ability. Like causing the Power Armor to break dance in that clearing - having the PA start shredding it's armored body to get to the soft squishy middle - to shutting down all life support systems then reversing some - whatever.

WE all have different ways to running a game as GM and different opinions of how we view the ways things we believe should work. Most importantly if we don't like the way a certain game system is set up then we can choose to quit buying its material and design our own game.

[Giant2005]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

Well that is easy then, Hecate's Armor is magic armor! Stick your Burster in that and beat the GB down old school.

A burster with a Plasma harness might be able to do it if he turns it on and sticks himself to the back of the GB in a position where the GB can't reach him. Don't know how much damage the GB falling backwards and crushing the Burster would do but the Burster's Fire Aura heals fast.

[Galroth]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

Well that is easy then, Hecate's Armor is magic armor! Stick your Burster in that and beat the GB down old school.

A burster with a Plasma harness might be able to do it if he turns it on and sticks himself to the back of the GB in a position where the GB can't reach him. Don't know how much damage the GB falling backwards and crushing the Burster would do but the Burster's Fire Aura heals fast.

Even easier, just have a set of TW Body armor with Superior Invisibility and Ley Ley Phantom. Activate both, walk up and light a fire inside the armor. Glitterboy Pilot Au Flambe'.

[keir451]

Y'know it's funny that everyone else seems to think that psionics (and magic) can travel thru enviromental seals even when the FAQ and books say otherwise. I also find it funny that, though the ability in question states (and I quote) "empty power armor", they all think that they can possess a PA unit while the pilot is still inside and rip him apart like tissue paper.
The description of power armor classifies it as a Robot Accessory Unit and states that the PILOT is the brain of the suit, so when the pilot is in the suit he/she is the AI for that suit. So since psionics cannot affect anything through enviromental seals then TM Possession should only work when the suit is A) Empty and B) open. It also repeatedly states (again I quote) "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
As PA units are Robot Accessory units (as are Robot vehicls) this puts them outside the category of "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
Now if a MM used Telemechanics to access the keypad code, then used TM operation to open the PA or RV (Robot Vehicle) then so long as there is no-one to contend with for control of the vehicle the MM could indeed possess the unit and make it do as he/she wishes. Of course with Telemechanics the MM can already operate the unit any way so there's no need for TM Possession per se.
It seems to me that too many of the people here seem to want to effectively munchkin their way into being able to trash Power Armor at their whim without having to actually role play the game.
I admit that TM possession allows one to control Power Armor, but the description clearly states that it can only affect empty power armor. So anything else is munckinism and house ruling, both of which have absolutely no validity.

[keir451]

Doesn't the psychic have to touch the GB in order to posses it?

Sort of, the abilities state their range as "touch or within X feet" for Telemechanics it is touch or up to 5 ft away, Tm Operation is 20 ft + 5 ft per level, Tm paralysis is touch or 40 ft, and Tm Possession is touch or 10ft per level.
So there is a relative range at which each of these powers could be used. That still means they have to be pretty darn close at times, mostly depending upon the users level. Obviously the higher the level the greater the distance for certain abilities.

[Franfrickle]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

Well that is easy then, Hecate's Armor is magic armor! Stick your Burster in that and beat the GB down old school.

A burster with a Plasma harness might be able to do it if he turns it on and sticks himself to the back of the GB in a position where the GB can't reach him. Don't know how much damage the GB falling backwards and crushing the Burster would do but the Burster's Fire Aura heals fast.

Even easier, just have a set of TW Body armor with Superior Invisibility and Ley Ley Phantom. Activate both, walk up and light a fire inside the armor. Glitterboy Pilot Au Flambe'.

Ok here's my question, I'm not doubting its possible with a Burster, but what psionic abilities would you use to kill the pilot, remember he's in Full enviromental PA atleast 770 MDC so alot of them won't be able to reach the pilot inside and the buster is limited to only a certain range of psionics if I'm reading Block 8 in RUE pg 141 correctly

[Galroth]

Nah, just a level 15 Burster, but I will allow 1 TW or magic armor, and 1 TW or magic (not Rune) weapon or other device that would be beneficial to the Burster in the encounter.

Well that is easy then, Hecate's Armor is magic armor! Stick your Burster in that and beat the GB down old school.

A burster with a Plasma harness might be able to do it if he turns it on and sticks himself to the back of the GB in a position where the GB can't reach him. Don't know how much damage the GB falling backwards and crushing the Burster would do but the Burster's Fire Aura heals fast.

Even easier, just have a set of TW Body armor with Superior Invisibility and Ley Ley Phantom. Activate both, walk up and light a fire inside the armor. Glitterboy Pilot Au Flambe'.

Ok here's my question, I'm not doubting its possible with a Burster, but what psionic abilities would you use to kill the pilot, remember he's in Full enviromental PA atleast 770 MDC so alot of them won't be able to reach the pilot inside and the buster is limited to only a certain range of psionics if I'm reading Block 8 in RUE pg 141 correctly

It's the Ley Line Phantom ability on the TW armor, it makes you intangible so you can reach in and start a fire inside the armor instead of burning through it.

[Franfrickle]

Ok you still seem to be ignoring the fact keir451 that the proposed method is by using astral projection which makes you etheral, it says clearly that you can pass thru solid objects (including M.D.C. walls) so if for some reason some GM twisted the rules and brought up that its enviro sealed then first off the second ability used Telemechanic Possession isn't effecting the pilot its effecting the PA so being environmentally sealed means jack since that aspect of the armor would only protect the pilot from most psionics and magic not the armor itself. But this is then all negated because while in astral form the psychic can go into or thru about darn near anything except some magic protections and I think force fields, not sure, so you enter the PA thru Astral Projection so your physical body doesn't have to be within the range of the PA because its your astral self that is activating the psionic ability of TP and since it doesn't require direct contact with the armor itself then he can use it while in astral form as long as his astral self is within the range and it is because the scenario says he'd use it to enter the machine.

As for what Telemechanic Possession says in RUE pg 184, SB1 is invalid if it says different because RUE supercedes it in latest published date Third Printing 2008, SB1 is ancient.

TP RUE pg 184 Regular, non-intelligent machines cannot save vs telemechanic possession. Artificial intelligences (robots like Skelebots) need a 15 or higher to save and sentient machines (like Archie-3) require a 12 or better to save. Artificial intelligences and sentient machines also get to save when being forced to do something that is contrary to their programing. Cybernetic and bionic devices attached to living tissue cannot be possessed. Neither can magic items, including Rune Weapons and Techno-Wizard devices.

This is exactly word for word and the next part of second paragragh is also word for word only ommiting the 1st sentence part about what other similar power its like

The character overrides the programming/controls of the machine, even in the case of sentient machines, and controls it like a living robot. Essentially, the possessing psychic is an immaterial pilot who controls the machine as he desires; computers, factory equipment, vehicles, robots, empty power armor, a toaster, etc.

it nowhere says

but the description clearly states that it can only affect empty power armor

stop adding words please, it only "Lists" empty Power Armor as an example as you can read for your benefit in above quoted block. If the machine had to be empty then don't you think it would say "empty vehicle, empty robots, empty power armor". It doesn't and one would think that if it will work on a Robot vehicle with anywhere from 2-6 people controling the unit then why shouldn't it work on a Power Armor that only has one person in it. Nowhere in RUE does it say that PA is classified as a Robot Accessory unit (GB PA classification is: Laser Resistant Infantry Personnel Unit pg. 71 RUE) , and even if it did it still wouldn't matter because as quoted above Telemechanic Possession works on EVERY machine (it only mentions simple machine in the last paragraph and refers to what his awareness and sense would be in relation to the machine possessed) with the exception of TW/magic devices and attached Cybernetic and bionic devices. It even works on AI machines as long as they fail their save, if it makes the save then the psychic simply tries again and it has to save again and again... THE ONLY WAY THAT THE PILOT WOULD BE THE ACTUAL BRAIN OF THE SUIT WOULD BE IF HE WAS CYBERNETICALLY LINKED TO THE SUIT. Which isn't the case in this scenerio and would require the GB PA to be modified to allow for such. If it was and he was linked then yes the Psychic would not be able to possess it. As for this nonsense

states that the PILOT is the brain of the suit, so when the pilot is in the suit he/she is the AI for that suit.

the pilot is the brain of the suit in the same way a driver would be the brain of a vehicle or a operator would be the brain of a push lawn mower, meaning he is the one physically in control of the controls and is the one that makes the choices on where he wants it to go or what he wants it to do. The pilot is NOT the AI of the suit if that was the case then his consciousness would have to leave his physical form and now inhabit the PA as his new physical body, sorta like the lawnmower man. And you dare to have the comment "My real physics defeats your quasi physics!!!" shame on you silly white rabbit.

We all know keir451 what your opinion of this matter is, and most of us have shown you how it is different then what the book says, pls stop twisting and omitting parts in your quotes and referals to try proving your point and swaying others. Most of us know what the book says and take it as such and have the capacity to understand what is written to its entirety. I'm not accusing you of not being able to comprehend what you read but so far you haven't shown that you fully take in what is written, maybe you're reading it too fast and overlooking parts, I don't know. I myself am not going to address this issue and yer munchkinism (I like this phrase, thanks) anyfurther with you on this board feel free to PM me if you'ld like and we can possibly discuss it that way. Thanks and if I offended you I appologize

[Franfrickle]

It's the Ley Line Phantom ability on the TW armor, it makes you intangible so you can reach in and start a fire inside the armor instead of burning through it.

Well that should work, I haven't been able to find that incantation, what book is it in. I probably have overlooked it

[Galroth]

It's the Ley Line Phantom ability on the TW armor, it makes you intangible so you can reach in and start a fire inside the armor instead of burning through it.

Well that should work, I haven't been able to find that incantation, what book is it in. I probably have overlooked it

It's definitely in the Book of Magic and is probably in the RUE. I may be mangling the name, but I don't think I am.

[Franfrickle]

It's the Ley Line Phantom ability on the TW armor, it makes you intangible so you can reach in and start a fire inside the armor instead of burning through it.

Well that should work, I haven't been able to find that incantation, what book is it in. I probably have overlooked it

It's definitely in the Book of Magic and is probably in the RUE. I may be mangling the name, but I don't think I am.

Ok I didn't see it in RUE, but havent had a chance to look in BoM yet, I may have over looked it. I was thinking it was just a special ability of like a LLW/LLR. Hmm I'll chech it out, thanks

[dragonfett]

A level 1 Juicer could defeat a GB of any level in my opinion. They are fast and agile enough to cover the open ground before the GB could react and jump on the GB's back, cut the ammo feed and run circles around it blasting away at it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I would say that many characters could win in a fight against any other character if they had the element of suprise as this mage does. I mean what if the mage was walking along and didn't see the Glitterboy at all..... we would have splattered mage.

Sure there are instances where the character springing their trap would have diffeculty, but it could happen.

Heck a Juicer in regular armor could beat a glitterboy. Have the Juicer attack one leg of the GB to damage the pylons and the GB can't shoot at the Juicer with his boom gun.

I don't know why you guys get so testy about some of these things.

Well, actually if the Juicer is capable of inflicting the 450 MDC needed to destroy the GB's leg, he could probably just take out the head or spend a few more attacks and destroy the main body itself.
More to the point, the weapon firing triggers the pylons, not the other way around, so the gun can fire even if the pylons cannot. And the retro-thrusters on the GB's back would still fire, keeping the GB from being thrown back, so the only real penalty would be (as per CB1) that every shot after the first would be Wild.

But I agree with your point overall, that given the right ambush scenario, almost any character can take out almost any other character.

[Killer Cyborg]

A level 1 Juicer could defeat a GB of any level in my opinion. They are fast and agile enough to cover the open ground before the GB could react and jump on the GB's back, cut the ammo feed and run circles around it blasting away at it.

Simultaneous attack, grab the Juicer.
Next attack, smash the Juicer onto the ground.
Repeat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Suprise is the best thing in any engagement in my opinion.

Well, that and Fear.

[dragonfett]

Wouldn't the Juicer be able to Auto-Dodge the Simultaneous attack? Even still, the Juicer could stay some 50 feet away from the GB and run circles, denying him the ability to get a good bead on him. Once the GB starts to get the rhythm, all the Juicer has to reverse his direction, or jump on its back from behind. Coming from behind, the GB won't be able to reach far enough behind himself to grab the Juicer.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wouldn't the Juicer be able to Auto-Dodge the Simultaneous attack?

Nope.

Auto-dodge just means that it doesn't take an attack/action to dodge, not that you can dodge in situations where dodge is impossible.
Juicers are specifically mentioned as being aware enough, and fast enough, that they can dodge ambushes, but nothing is ever said that grants them the ability to dodge simultaneous attacks.

Even still, the Juicer could stay some 50 feet away from the GB and run circles, denying him the ability to get a good bead on him.

Any time you like, feel free to come over to my place. I'll get a paintball gun, and you run around in circles 50' away.
We'll see what happens.

Once the GB starts to get the rhythm, all the Juicer has to reverse his direction, or jump on its back from behind.

Ever notice that robot pilots are essentially just as fast as juicers?

Coming from behind, the GB won't be able to reach far enough behind himself to grab the Juicer.

Why not?

[dragonfett]

Any time you like, feel free to come over to my place. I'll get a paintball gun, and you run around in circles 50' away.
We'll see what happens.

Dude, there is a HUGE difference in the speed that I can run, and the speed that a Juicer, who can attempt to Auto-Dodge attacks, running circles around something. Ok, so by cannon rules, the GB suffers no additional penalties for trying to target a fast moving target close to the shooter, other than the standard penalties for shooting at a moving target (-1), depending on the Juicer's Speed stat, another penalty for every 50 MPH over 20 that the target is moving (-2 now), and whether or not running around in circles would qualify as defensive action (-3 total possible, or -2 depending on the Juicer's speed).

So I want you to try and aim a 8' long or so gun at a human sized target, running up toward 75 mph in circles around you, at 50' away from you, and THEN we will see what happens.

As far as the auto dodge, the description in the Juicer section states that he gets it on all attacks, even those from behind and surprise. One could take this meaning as being able to attempt to auto dodge against simultaneous attacks. The worst is that auto dodging the simultaneous attack disrupts his attempt to jump onto the GB.

And as for why a GB couldn't just reach behind himself to grab the Juicer, the power armor is going to restrict the motion of the pilot's arms.

[keir451]

Adragonfett; Considering what a piece of junk the RUE is, is it any wonder I prefer the original books to it? It has been established since first printings of Rifts the limitations of magic and psionics. They cannot affect anything inside enviromentally sealed units nor can they affect anything outside said unit from within. Prime example is the FAQ regarding Psi Swords, while they can be deployed inside the armor they'd rip thru it on the way out. That meant to me that even in astral form a psionic could not interact with someone inside a PA unit or Robot vehicle. Since the definition of Robots has not been altered since the printing of SB1 then the definition is by default still valid, as Kevin merely designed the books to give a general update, not to invalidate any prior book.
It doesn't matter which printing of the RUE it is, and I'm not going to play that silly game of "Ha, my editions newer so it's OBVIOUSLY more correct than yours!" I've been referencing BOTH Psyscape and RUE and even later printings of each and the wording is still the same.
The reason there aren't more specific descriptions is because Kevin figured we'd get the point from his examples. As that is patently untrue in this case then we need further clarification on the matter.
Ah, but the fact that it does state "empty power armor" tells me that he means "empty power armor", not power armor occupied by its pilot. Seems pretty clear to me. It's an example because Kevin is relying on the supposed intelligence of his players to interpret hs examples correctly, if the vehicle is occupied then either it cannot be possessed or the pilot gets to fight it off somehow either by shutting the unit down or by physically fighting for control of the unit and moving out of the psionics range. What you guys want is the typical munchkin "I beat all!" trick and that just shows how cheap people are. What I want is a reasonable defense against a cheap tactic that is being twisted by a bunch of munchkins.
And if you reference the GB artwork you'll see that the pilot uses a neural interface helmet with an external plug (oh wait, artwork is just fluff and therefore invalid ). So the GB pilot does indeed have a neural link to the Pa via his helmet.
Yes I dare to have the comment "my real world Physics defeats your Quasi physcis!" because 90% of the time all I see is "Oh, physics doesn't exist/work in Rifts" or "Physics ruins the game".
I'm not twisting or omitting parts I'm providing quotes just like you, and also just like you I'm also providing a reading of the rules/descriptions. I've already admitted I was wrong on my initial statements, but upon the further research I see that little line that clearly says "empty power armor". Am I suposed to ignore it and say it doesn't matter? As much as I may disagree with how the game is set up I know that Kevin doesn't just throw things like that in for no reason. So I have no choice (barring further evidence) that he specifically meant empty power armor.
Admittedly I've been guilty of reading too fast and missing critical statements, which is why I acknowledge my error when it is pointed out tome.
You call me munchkin because I don't like the idea of some cheap punk being able to waltz up to my PA suit, suddenly be able to take it over with me not able to do anything about it, or violate a basic rule of the game and flash fry me inside my armor or as has been suggested, pull me apart like a wish bone, again without being able to manifest a defense? You call THAT muchkinism? That, sir, has ALWAYS been bad gaming and munchkinism as well as crappy GMing. NO Gm i've ever gamed with over the past 20+ years would EVER resort to that kind of manure, yet it seems that everyone here wants exactly that, yet if it were to happen to YOU I KNOW you'd be just as P.O.ed as I would be. Why, because it's a cheap way of running and ruining a game by allowing someone to be a munckin.

[Galroth]

So it's totally cheap for a psychic or magic user to, using the powers, incantations and items they have available to kill the Power Armor pilot. That's if they manage to get close enough. But it's not cheap for the Power Armor pilot to be totally immune just for being inside of an environmental seal? I don't understand the inflexible reading of the rules you are applying.

Most of the non-astral projection solutions, at least that I've presented, rely on the use of a spell that is only usable on a Ley Line. Off of the Ley Line the GB would still be the ridiculous juggernaught that it's written as.

[dragonfett]

Ok, really, this flame war has got to stop.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any time you like, feel free to come over to my place. I'll get a paintball gun, and you run around in circles 50' away.
We'll see what happens.

Dude, there is a HUGE difference in the speed that I can run, and the speed that a Juicer, who can attempt to Auto-Dodge attacks, running circles around something.

And there's a difference between the speed that I, who am not trained in nor using physically enhancing power armor that helps me move roughly 50% faster than normal, can aim and fire and the speed that a GB pilot can aim and fire.
So I figure it nets out pretty close.

Ok, so by cannon rules, the GB suffers no additional penalties for trying to target a fast moving target close to the shooter, other than the standard penalties for shooting at a moving target (-1), depending on the Juicer's Speed stat, another penalty for every 50 MPH over 20 that the target is moving (-2 now), and whether or not running around in circles would qualify as defensive action (-3 total possible, or -2 depending on the Juicer's speed).

Correct; those are the only penalties.
And they are likely cancelled out by the GB's strike bonuses.

So I want you to try and aim a 8' long or so gun at a human sized target, running up toward 75 mph in circles around you, at 50' away from you, and THEN we will see what happens.

The gun size doesn't matter; you're 50' away, which is plenty of room to swing the gun, and the GB is large enough and strong enough to use it without penalties.
The equivalent for me would more more like a rifle under 4' long, and yeah, I'd feel fine using one in the situation we're talking about.

Also, the average Speed of a 1st level juicer (3d6, average of 3.5 per die) 10.5 + 50 (2d4x10, average of 2.5 per die) + 10 (4d4 for the Running skill, with an average of 2.5 per die) = 70.5
=1410 yards per minute
=4230 feet per minute
=253,800 feet per hour
=48 mph

The GB, on the other hand, runs at 60 mph, which means that he's also able to react while moving at that kind of speed, which means that he's going to be a lot better at the job than I am.

As far as the auto dodge, the description in the Juicer section states that he gets it on all attacks, even those from behind and surprise. One could take this meaning as being able to attempt to auto dodge against simultaneous attacks.

One could, but only if one disregards the description of simultaneous attack:
"The advantage of a simultaneous attack is that neither opponent can parry, dodge or entangle."
As pointed out above, the Juicer's description specifies surprise attacks and attacks from behind, but NOT simultaneous attacks.

The worst is that auto dodging the simultaneous attack disrupts his attempt to jump onto the GB.

And lands the Juicer in the GB's grip.
Which is more likely than not, the end of the story.

And as for why a GB couldn't just reach behind himself to grab the Juicer, the power armor is going to restrict the motion of the pilot's arms.

You mean the "amazingly small and mobile" robot armor that "offers fully articulated hands and the mobility of the human body?"
The armor that's mobile enough to run at 60 mph, that gets a bonus to dodge and parry, and that can make leap kicks?
That's the armor that you're saying will keep the wearer from being able to reach a target half his height that's hanging on his back?

Interesting.
Got a source for that information?

[keir451]

So it's totally cheap for a psychic or magic user to, using the powers, incantations and items they have available to kill the Power Armor pilot. That's if they manage to get close enough. But it's not cheap for the Power Armor pilot to be totally immune just for being inside of an environmental seal? I don't understand the inflexible reading of the rules you are applying.

Most of the non-astral projection solutions, at least that I've presented, rely on the use of a spell that is only usable on a Ley Line. Off of the Ley Line the GB would still be the ridiculous juggernaught that it's written as.

It's only cheap if they get to do it automatically and I don't get a chance to save or defend against it. Most magic spells or attacks allow a dodge or save against or have to defeat the armor first, the same goes with any attack againsty a mage. The mage still gets a chance to dodge or be protected by his spells, it is the SYSTEM that allows a spell tobe disrupted, not me. The way some were presenting the Tm Possession gives the pilot no defense at all, the attack not only automatically bypasses the pilots main defense, namely the PA itself, it then uses the PA against the pilot and allows the attacker to effectively auto kill the pilot.
All I want is a reasonable chance to defend myself against such an incursion, that way if my attempt to defend myself fails then I know I at least tried and I'll be fine with that. But to have another PC or NPC be able to just arbitrarily kill me despite my defenses just makes me rather annoyed.
I never say that a PA unit should be able to auto kill anyone or be immune to anything and everything. Do I believe that Magic in Rifts is inadequate to the tasks given it? Yes, which is why I'd like to see a better magic system. Do I feel that there are things that are unbalancing in Rifts and that some effort towards making a reasonable game balance should be made? Yes, but I go out of my way in any game I'm to try and play fair and not screw other gamers over. That is why I feel that the issue of Tm Possesion is unbalancing as presented, because it screws a character over by not giving them a fair and reasonable chance to defend against it. In effect it is a way for someone playing a Mind Melter (or other Master level psi) to literally be able to auto kill anyone in a PA or Robot vehicle unit for free at little to no risk to themselves. THAT is what is truly cheap about it.

[Nightmask]

Y'know it's funny that everyone else seems to think that psionics (and magic) can travel thru enviromental seals even when the FAQ and books say otherwise. I also find it funny that, though the ability in question states (and I quote) "empty power armor", they all think that they can possess a PA unit while the pilot is still inside and rip him apart like tissue paper.
The description of power armor classifies it as a Robot Accessory Unit and states that the PILOT is the brain of the suit, so when the pilot is in the suit he/she is the AI for that suit. So since psionics cannot affect anything through enviromental seals then TM Possession should only work when the suit is A) Empty and B) open. It also repeatedly states (again I quote) "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
As PA units are Robot Accessory units (as are Robot vehicls) this puts them outside the category of "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
Now if a MM used Telemechanics to access the keypad code, then used TM operation to open the PA or RV (Robot Vehicle) then so long as there is no-one to contend with for control of the vehicle the MM could indeed possess the unit and make it do as he/she wishes. Of course with Telemechanics the MM can already operate the unit any way so there's no need for TM Possession per se.
It seems to me that too many of the people here seem to want to effectively munchkin their way into being able to trash Power Armor at their whim without having to actually role play the game.
I admit that TM possession allows one to control Power Armor, but the description clearly states that it can only affect empty power armor. So anything else is munckinism and house ruling, both of which have absolutely no validity.

One of your glaring error seems to be the obsession over the environmental seals as that's in reference to the psionics being able to affect the person INSIDE the power armor or vehicle. They aren't going to do anything from someone affecting the power armor or vehicle itself. So while you aren't going to use your psi-sword to hurt the guy in the Glitter Boy your Telemechanic Possession is going to own the suit without even a struggle.

Also just because you're wrong don't be accusing people of being munchkins for pointing out to you the obvious text on what the power can obviously do. We get that you don't like that they can do it and nerf the power by house-ruling it doesn't work as written but no one has been munchkin when pointing out what the power does by the rules that are very clearly laid out in the books.

Also how you get the idea that 'well it's listed as a robot accessory unit so it can't be a regular, simple machine', that's not what the text says at all. When something like ARCHIE-3 is listed as 'complex enough to get a save of 12' and a skelebot as 'just complex enough to get a 15 to save', it should be evident that your idea of what's simple isn't even close to what the books say when a machine doesn't even start getting saves until it's an artificially intelligent robot like a Skelebot. Basic logic would come to the conclusion that everything below an artificially intelligent device is simple, from lap top, toaster, to power armor.

[keir451]

Y'know it's funny that everyone else seems to think that psionics (and magic) can travel thru enviromental seals even when the FAQ and books say otherwise. I also find it funny that, though the ability in question states (and I quote) "empty power armor", they all think that they can possess a PA unit while the pilot is still inside and rip him apart like tissue paper.
The description of power armor classifies it as a Robot Accessory Unit and states that the PILOT is the brain of the suit, so when the pilot is in the suit he/she is the AI for that suit. So since psionics cannot affect anything through enviromental seals then TM Possession should only work when the suit is A) Empty and B) open. It also repeatedly states (again I quote) "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
As PA units are Robot Accessory units (as are Robot vehicls) this puts them outside the category of "regular, non-intelligent machines" and "simple machines".
Now if a MM used Telemechanics to access the keypad code, then used TM operation to open the PA or RV (Robot Vehicle) then so long as there is no-one to contend with for control of the vehicle the MM could indeed possess the unit and make it do as he/she wishes. Of course with Telemechanics the MM can already operate the unit any way so there's no need for TM Possession per se.
It seems to me that too many of the people here seem to want to effectively munchkin their way into being able to trash Power Armor at their whim without having to actually role play the game.
I admit that TM possession allows one to control Power Armor, but the description clearly states that it can only affect empty power armor. So anything else is munckinism and house ruling, both of which have absolutely no validity.

One of your glaring error seems to be the obsession over the environmental seals as that's in reference to the psionics being able to affect the person INSIDE the power armor or vehicle. They aren't going to do anything from someone affecting the power armor or vehicle itself. So while you aren't going to use your psi-sword to hurt the guy in the Glitter Boy your Telemechanic Possession is going to own the suit without even a struggle.
Also just because you're wrong don't be accusing people of being munchkins for pointing out to you the obvious text on what the power can obviously do. We get that you don't like that they can do it and nerf the power by house-ruling it doesn't work as written but no one has been munchkin when pointing out what the power does by the rules that are very clearly laid out in the books.

Also how you get the idea that 'well it's listed as a robot accessory unit so it can't be a regular, simple machine', that's not what the text says at all. When something like ARCHIE-3 is listed as 'complex enough to get a save of 12' and a skelebot as 'just complex enough to get a 15 to save', it should be evident that your idea of what's simple isn't even close to what the books say when a machine doesn't even start getting saves until it's an artificially intelligent robot like a Skelebot. Basic logic would come to the conclusion that everything below an artificially intelligent device is simple, from lap top, toaster, to power armor.

The bold area is EXACTLY why I call people munchkins, because that power is exactly that. So you'd be Ok with it if I pulled that stunt on your GB character? Lets say you've spent countless game sessions playing that character and I, low level MM or Psitech just walk right up to you and Tm Possess your GB, pop open the hatch and pull you apart like a wish bone. Then using my Telemechanics I pilot the GB to the nearest Black Market dealer and sell it. I wind up walking away from it unharmed and very wealthy, you however just lost a character that you've invested alot of personal time in and now have to spend 2 hrs rolling up a new character. Letrs say that the new character is again a PA Pilot, I pull the exact same trick on you AGAIN. Lets say I do this to you in EVERY single game we are in together, or I start doing it to other gamers in the group, again and again and again. And you really expect me to believe that you'd be :OK: with that? How long will it be before you and the others get sick of it?
So I'm a muchkin and a sore loser becasue I don't like an ability that can give a low level character such staggering power and the ability to kill off anyone no matter how tough the PA unit is without the pilot having even a ghost of a chance?
True basic logic tells me that something that is designated as a "robot accessory unit" would be better than and different than a toaster.
So, YES I want a goddam save versus a pathetic munchkin attack becasue I'm here to enjoy playing a game I like, not be raped up the ass by a pathetic loser such as those who suggested the idea. Don't like it? **** off and die Uncle ******.

Warning: Flagrant violation of the rules regarding flaming and harassment.

[The Beast]

My understanding has always been that the rule about psionics not effecting mecha units wasn't the unit itself, but the person inside the suit operating it.

[Nightmask]

The bold area is EXACTLY why I call people munchkins, because that power is exactly that. So you'd be Ok with it if I pulled that stunt on your GB character? Lets say you've spent countless game sessions playing that character and I, low level MM or Psitech just walk right up to you and Tm Possess your GB, pop open the hatch and pull you apart like a wish bone. Then using my Telemechanics I pilot the GB to the nearest Black Market dealer and sell it. I wind up walking away from it unharmed and very wealthy, you however just lost a character that you've invested alot of personal time in and now have to spend 2 hrs rolling up a new character. Letrs say that the new character is again a PA Pilot, I pull the exact same trick on you AGAIN. Lets say I do this to you in EVERY single game we are in together, or I start doing it to other gamers in the group, again and again and again. And you really expect me to believe that you'd be :OK: with that? How long will it be before you and the others get sick of it?

Clearly you aren't reading all of my posts as I already noted I quite understood why you nerf the power, and listed those very reasons as to how it would feel to the player having no say in things. Now if you're doing that trick repeatedly then you're just being an @$$, which a GM can do with just about any power or trick. Like as mentioned in another thread if you were popping up with phase weapons to one-shot kill every Cyborg PC at every opportunity or laser head-shotting every normal character the moment it was outside its MDC protection.

So I'm a muchkin and a sore loser becasue I don't like an ability that can give a low level character such staggering power and the ability to kill off anyone no matter how tough the PA unit is without the pilot having even a ghost of a chance?

No one said you were a munchkin or sore loser, you're the one who's said it was munchkin. Also since most games are a PC group not one GM/one player someone ought to be in the position to rescue the PC rather than no one having any chance of succeeding.

True basic logic tells me that something that is designated as a "robot accessory unit" would be better than and different than a toaster.
So, YES I want a goddam save versus a pathetic munchkin attack becasue I'm here to enjoy playing a game I like, not be raped up the ass by a pathetic loser such as those who suggested the idea. Don't like it? **** off and die Uncle ******.

No, you're quite wrong, it is not a munchkin attack and simple does not mean toaster or lawn mower it means 'lacking artificial intelligence or real intelligence'. Things without intelligence can't resist being controlled, this is evident even with living beings. Destroy the brain/intellect and any possessing entity can take it over without any saves because there's nothing to stop it. Same goes with a power armor or car, there's no intelligence and nothing for it to resist being controlled with.

It's also a personal attack and insult to call the people who suggested Telemechanic Possession 'pathetic losers', along with the rest of the insulting diatribe. A simple 'that power makes it too easy and not a real contest' would have been just fine, but you don't have cause to call anyone a pathetic loser over a hypothetical based on a very clear and unambigious power because you're too personally invested for whatever reason to simply accept the power as written and state that while it can indeed easily own a power armor you as a house rule in your games have rewritten the power so that it can't.

[Nightmask]

My understanding has always been that the rule about psionics not effecting mecha units wasn't the unit itself, but the person inside the suit operating it.

I haven't seen anything written that says otherwise, if anything it might note that physical psionic attacks will stop at and damage the armor but the pilot is safe inside. The armor itself isn't protected from any psionic attacks that can affect it whether it be Psi-Sword or Telemechanic Possession.

[keir451]

My understanding has always been that the rule about psionics not effecting mecha units wasn't the unit itself, but the person inside the suit operating it.

According to the books; psionics that affect the mind cannot affect a person in a PA suit or a Robot vehicle due to the enviromental seals. Psionics that affect the machine itself are not blocked. The specific passage is on page 366 of the RUE, on the top right of the page starting with "mor (250 M.D.C. or more for the main body)".
So according to the official information, Tm Possesion can affect PA units and the like because it only affects the machine.
I will state, officially, that I do not like this power because it gives a low level character too much power and there is no way to defend against it except to, hopefully, run away.
Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

[Galroth]

My understanding has always been that the rule about psionics not effecting mecha units wasn't the unit itself, but the person inside the suit operating it.

According to the books; psionics that affect the mind cannot affect a person in a PA suit or a Robot vehicle due to the enviromental seals. Psionics that affect the machine itself are not blocked. The specific passage is on page 366 of the RUE, on the top right of the page starting with "mor (250 M.D.C. or more for the main body)".
So according to the official information, Tm Possesion can affect PA units and the like because it only affects the machine.
I will state, officially, that I do not like this power because it gives a low level character too much power and there is no way to defend against it except to, hopefully, run away.
Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Those kind of actions would get said Mind Melter killed by the other players while he was meditating or sleeping in the games I play in. Unless they are really stupid all the other players have reasons to worry said mind melter would turn on them when it was convenient. If it were an enemy Mind Melter I would expect my compatriots to at least try and keep the Mind Melter from getting within range to use his one shot kill power on me. Although if he did use TM Possession on me he would be very vulnerable to being one shot by anyone in the party since his body falls limp to the ground.

These one on one, highly favored to one side duels have no real reflection on how effective a power or combination of powers would actually play out in a game. At least in my opinion.

[Franfrickle]

The bold area is EXACTLY why I call people munchkins, because that power is exactly that. So you'd be Ok with it if I pulled that stunt on your GB character? Lets say you've spent countless game sessions playing that character and I, low level MM or Psitech just walk right up to you and Tm Possess your GB, pop open the hatch and pull you apart like a wish bone. Then using my Telemechanics I pilot the GB to the nearest Black Market dealer and sell it. I wind up walking away from it unharmed and very wealthy, you however just lost a character that you've invested alot of personal time in and now have to spend 2 hrs rolling up a new character. Letrs say that the new character is again a PA Pilot, I pull the exact same trick on you AGAIN. Lets say I do this to you in EVERY single game we are in together, or I start doing it to other gamers in the group, again and again and again. And you really expect me to believe that you'd be :OK: with that? How long will it be before you and the others get sick of it?
So I'm a muchkin and a sore loser becasue I don't like an ability that can give a low level character such staggering power and the ability to kill off anyone no matter how tough the PA unit is without the pilot having even a ghost of a chance?
True basic logic tells me that something that is designated as a "robot accessory unit" would be better than and different than a toaster.
So, YES I want a goddam save versus a pathetic munchkin attack becasue I'm here to enjoy playing a game I like, not be raped up the ass by a pathetic loser such as those who suggested the idea. Don't like it? **** off and die Uncle ******.

Come on Now your just taking it to stupid, no decent GM with the least bit of imagination would do that, and if they did in a game I was playing in I would rearange his facial features again and again and again. If it happened once or twice, and thats if, because there is other variables that should be considered as I pointed out below and beforehand then I would take from that experience and prob say "wow that was F'ing Brutal, guess I know what I need to look out for" (It's only a Game) and then in game with the next PA I choose I would Role-play doing the research to find out how such things can be prevented, like getting a cybernetic headjack. As far as if they went for a direct approach and did pop open the hatch well then there are dodge rolls and attack rolls to be made as well as initiative so the gb might not even get the chance to grab and I'm already in the treeline, try getting out of the armor and run like hell defensively and hope he misses.

There are always variables in a game that can effect anything and spell their doom. If I was the GM of a game where a scenario such as this came about and a PC was the GB and the MM was an enemy NPC then I wouldn't try to use something like this unless I felt the need to teach the GB a little humility in that he isn't all high and mighty. But if I was a PC MM and my GM pitted me against a GB then I would play it out as I mentioned in my last posting on the 2nd pg of this forum in which I used a little more creativity and thought to effectively roleplay it.

Yeah I could technically while possessing the PA repeatedly bash the GB's head in till he's dead or reach in thru the entry/escape hatch and pull the character out and rip him in half like a wishbone, but that could humiliate the GM (might not, the GM might get a kick out of it, I sure as hell would as long as it didn't go against there Alignment) as it would most definitely if the GM did it to a PC GB that wasn't deserving of it. Some unknown factors during game play that could spell disastor for the MM while AP'd and TPing the GB PA would be a set roll % range chart for chance encounter example:00-10% patrol finds body and attempt to rouse the character then take him in for questioning, 11-15% carnivorous animal finds body and decides its an easy treat, 16-20% entinty passing the body notices it's an empty shell..., 25-100% nothing happens to the body while MM is AP'd. There is a lot of things that could happen and as for the GB Pilot, as a GM I would let him Roll a Perception roll to determine if he noticed the MM TMing his armor when the contact is being made and if he did then roll a knowledge skill roll to see if he could determine what it might be, if he was able to determine it then this is where Initiative rolls come in, but if he fails the initiative roll or fails his perception roll then the MM would from that point effectively have complete control over every function of the PA, and even if he made the rolls and had initiative then depending on what his 1st actions were ie: decided to look for the MM instead of just shutting the armor down, well then the MM still might be incontrol of the armor by his 1st action and do whatever within its limits he wants to it for the duration of the ability. Like causing the Power Armor to break dance in that clearing - having the PA start shredding it's armored body to get to the soft squishy middle - to shutting down all life support systems then reversing some - whatever.

WE all have different ways to running a game as GM and different opinions of how we view the ways things we believe should work. Most importantly if we don't like the way a certain game system is set up then we can choose to quit buying its material and design our own game.

That last part of your tirade boled, be careful arvadian. Seriously and be thankful I'm not as petty and thin skinned as some people here considering I'm the one that did most of the suggesting and played out examples for the MM, which I might add that in the last post as part is quoted above it was handled with a bit more style you should reread it.
Have a nice day

[keir451]

My understanding has always been that the rule about psionics not effecting mecha units wasn't the unit itself, but the person inside the suit operating it.

According to the books; psionics that affect the mind cannot affect a person in a PA suit or a Robot vehicle due to the enviromental seals. Psionics that affect the machine itself are not blocked. The specific passage is on page 366 of the RUE, on the top right of the page starting with "mor (250 M.D.C. or more for the main body)".
So according to the official information, Tm Possesion can affect PA units and the like because it only affects the machine.
I will state, officially, that I do not like this power because it gives a low level character too much power and there is no way to defend against it except to, hopefully, run away.
Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Those kind of actions would get said Mind Melter killed by the other players while he was meditating or sleeping in the games I play in. Unless they are really stupid all the other players have reasons to worry said mind melter would turn on them when it was convenient. If it were an enemy Mind Melter I would expect my compatriots to at least try and keep the Mind Melter from getting within range to use his one shot kill power on me. Although if he did use TM Possession on me he would be very vulnerable to being one shot by anyone in the party since his body falls limp to the ground.

These one on one, highly favored to one side duels have no real reflection on how effective a power or combination of powers would actually play out in a game. At least in my opinion.

Normally I would agree with you, unfortunately that is apparently eaxctly how people seem to veiw this power in particular. Thetyseem to feel that it doesn't nned any balancing and they can do as they will with it and anyone who suggest otherwise be cursed.
@ Franfrickle; Truth be told I would rearrange more than just his facial fetures and I'd do it to the Gm as well. Unfortunately that is EXACTLY what everyone is saying the power can do wether they realize it or not. Thus my personal modification of the power for my games and my desire to see some sort of balance or defense presented for it in the official materials.
As for getting out of the armor, I do believe that someone else mentioned that the PA's own strength can be used to hold you in place.
I could be wrong though.
I'm just tired of everyone arguing FOR things like this instead of hammering the editor and author(Mr. KS himself) to fix his mistake. Thus my rant. I shall not apologize for it and stand by my anger at the sheer stupidity of some people.

[Franfrickle]

Again as far as its strength holding the pilot in place it would be subject to: Initiative Rolls, Dodge Rolls, Attack rolls and some Skill rolls. This is what gives it the aspect of balance because it's up to the roll of the dice in this regard. I personally wouldn't have the power to be changed except to state as I mentioned above where its subject to perception roll & skill lore: psychics & psionics or an IQ roll, and then initiative of both parties when involving a pilot in the PA or vehicle which would give him the chance if he had Init to shut it off if he chose to do so, but thats it. And to be honest most Master Classes if I'm not mistaken can't even select this power and those that can the PC is almost always going to go first for the "EWWW Psi-sword, F' ya" or something else before they look at that as being a first or second or even third choice for a character. Don't idolize GB's as it seems is the case, if I'm mistaken so be it, but getting all bent out of shape because some implied that the armor could just reach in and split him like a wishbone, quite frankly is sad. Even if some cocky player/GM tried to do it, the its subject to these things: Initiative Rolls, Dodge Rolls, Attack rolls and some Skill rolls. There-by creating some sense of balance thru chance of the dice, and I assure that the modifiers added to the rolls between a Mind Melter or the GB Pilot are going to be in the GB pilots favor especially at 15th lvl. If you wanted to ensure that it never happened to your precious GB Pilot then use yer head and invest in a Cybernetic Headjack listed price starts at 8,400 credits, and would effectively negate this power among others. Seriously need to relax over this whole issue and take the time to look at all variables and how they could work in yer precious GB's favor. Thanks

[keir451]

@Franfickle; Thank you for your measured response. I believe you're right that Tm Possession is limited to a few OCC's and I generally agree that the dice rolls weigh in on the GB's side. While I do like the GB, I'm generally just a PA and tech player in general, I was just continuing the original example.
I'm angry because too many people seem to think that doing what I described is standard for Rifts and they would think nothing of doing it repeatedly just because they could while laughing stupidly.
(Sound of a D20 rolling) Sorry, I failed my roll to relax over this. I rolled a 1.

[dragonfett]

The balancing factor for TM Possession is that it requires the ability to use one other Super Psionic Power (TM) and 1 Sensitive Power (Object Read), and costs a crap load of ISP. In a combat situation, the psychic is going to get owned because the second he uses this, he leaves his body defenseless, and will have to be absurdly close, even at higher levels (when you take a moment to consider the ranges that ranged combat typically takes place at). In order to use this power effectively, you need to think of the game like chess instead of checkers. And all for 5 minutes per level. 5 minutes may sound like an eternity in combat, but outside of combat, it is complete and total s***. The only real application that this power has outside of combat at low levels is to easily penetrate electronically locked doors, which can be done easier and cost less ISP than TM Possession with TM Mental Operation.

So yeah, on a one on one encounter where the can be surprised (like in this encounter), the psychic is most likely going to win, so long as he can get into range. You keep seeing a single tree on fire and act like it is the entire forest.

[keir451]

The balancing factor for TM Possession is that it requires the ability to use one other Super Psionic Power (TM) and 1 Sensitive Power (Object Read), and costs a crap load of ISP. In a combat situation, the psychic is going to get owned because the second he uses this, he leaves his body defenseless, and will have to be absurdly close, even at higher levels (when you take a moment to consider the ranges that ranged combat typically takes place at). In order to use this power effectively, you need to think of the game like chess instead of checkers. And all for 5 minutes per level. 5 minutes may sound like an eternity in combat, but outside of combat, it is complete and total s***. The only real application that this power has outside of combat at low levels is to easily penetrate electronically locked doors, which can be done easier and cost less ISP than TM Possession with TM Mental Operation.

So yeah, on a one on one encounter where the can be surprised (like in this encounter), the psychic is most likely going to win, so long as he can get into range. You keep seeing a single tree on fire and act like it is the entire forest.

Unfortunately a single tree can lead to a forest fire that's rampaging out of control.
Which makes me think of just how many forest fires (literal ones that is) Rifts Earth has seen over the past couple of centuries. My feeling is that despite the relative balances you mentioned; A) Yes they're there, and B) No I don't think they're enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Here's a scenario:
You join a new game and decide to play a Mind Melter. You'e been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the GB in the group stands 91' away from you, and shoots you in the back of the head with his Boom Gun.
He then takes your gear and sells it.
The GM allows it, because it's in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide; you just came to play, right?
So you roll up a new Mind Melter, and this time while you're using TM Possession on an enemy tank, you return to your body to discover that it was sodomized while you were away. The GB pilot is standing there, whistling innocently.
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Hopefully not long.
If the people you're playing with are evil jerks to your character, you shouldn't tolerate it.

And every character class has some kind of vulnerability that can be exploited by fellow party members, IF they're jerks.


But in general I'd go with the idea that because of the neural plug, the GB suit would be attached to the pilot intimately enough that it would be impervious to TM Possession.

[Galroth]

Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Here's a scenario:
You join a new game and decide to play a Mind Melter. You'e been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the GB in the group stands 91' away from you, and shoots you in the back of the head with his Boom Gun.
He then takes your gear and sells it.
The GM allows it, because it's in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide; you just came to play, right?
So you roll up a new Mind Melter, and this time while you're using TM Possession on an enemy tank, you return to your body to discover that it was sodomized while you were away. The GB pilot is standing there, whistling innocently.
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Hopefully not long.
If the people you're playing with are evil jerks to your character, you shouldn't tolerate it.

And every character class has some kind of vulnerability that can be exploited by fellow party members, IF they're jerks.


But in general I'd go with the idea that because of the neural plug, the GB suit would be attached to the pilot intimately enough that it would be impervious to TM Possession.

It would be impervious to TM Operation imho, but the pilot would get a save against Psi for TM possession at the standard save number, same as an AI.

[keir451]

Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Here's a scenario:
You join a new game and decide to play a Mind Melter. You'e been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the GB in the group stands 91' away from you, and shoots you in the back of the head with his Boom Gun.
He then takes your gear and sells it.
The GM allows it, because it's in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide; you just came to play, right?
So you roll up a new Mind Melter, and this time while you're using TM Possession on an enemy tank, you return to your body to discover that it was sodomized while you were away. The GB pilot is standing there, whistling innocently.
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Hopefully not long.
If the people you're playing with are evil jerks to your character, you shouldn't tolerate it.

And every character class has some kind of vulnerability that can be exploited by fellow party members, IF they're jerks.


But in general I'd go with the idea that because of the neural plug, the GB suit would be attached to the pilot intimately enough that it would be impervious to TM Possession.

No accounting for taste there KC, if your character like doesn't like being sodomized or being killed by a GB, then A) set up better protections and B) don't be crazy enough to take on a GB w/out some serious fire power like two or three Naruni Plasma Gatling Rifles.
In any case I wouldn't put up with EITHER in the first place, both the GM and the stupid player would be visiting the Emergency room for being stupid enough to **** me off. Which is why I take steps to stop it before it starts by saying that the PA pilot, as the central OS of the unit gets a save vs it. Then he gets to have the opportunity to get out of his PA and beat the everloving **** out of the idiot MM who tried to jack his PA.

[Damian Magecraft]

Here's a scenario; You join a new game and decide to play a GB pilot, you've been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the Mind Melter in the group walks up to you while your piloting your GB and Tm Possesses it. He pops your hatch and uses the GB's arms to rip you apart like a wishbone. He then uses Telemechanics to pilot the GB to a Black Market outpost and sells it. The Gm allows it because it in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide, you just came to play right? So you roll up a new character, let's say it's CS RPA Elite pilot in a Terror Trooper, the Mind Melter does it to you AGAIN. As a matter of fact he starts doing it to everyone who plays a PA or Robot Vehicle or tank pilot, all the while citing "It's in the book so its legal."
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Here's a scenario:
You join a new game and decide to play a Mind Melter. You'e been enjoying yourself for the past few sessions until the GB in the group stands 91' away from you, and shoots you in the back of the head with his Boom Gun.
He then takes your gear and sells it.
The GM allows it, because it's in the books. You (being a nice guy) let it slide; you just came to play, right?
So you roll up a new Mind Melter, and this time while you're using TM Possession on an enemy tank, you return to your body to discover that it was sodomized while you were away. The GB pilot is standing there, whistling innocently.
How long are you going to put up with that before you either walk out of the game or do something more drastic?

Hopefully not long.
If the people you're playing with are evil jerks to your character, you shouldn't tolerate it.

And every character class has some kind of vulnerability that can be exploited by fellow party members, IF they're jerks.


But in general I'd go with the idea that because of the neural plug, the GB suit would be attached to the pilot intimately enough that it would be impervious to TM Possession.

No accounting for taste there KC, if your character like doesn't like being sodomized or being killed by a GB, then A) set up better protections and B) don't be crazy enough to take on a GB w/out some serious fire power like two or three Naruni Plasma Gatling Rifles.
In any case I wouldn't put up with EITHER in the first place, both the GM and the stupid player would be visiting the Emergency room for being stupid enough to **** me off. Which is why I take steps to stop it before it starts by saying that the PA pilot, as the central OS of the unit gets a save vs it. Then he gets to have the opportunity to get out of his PA and beat the everloving **** out of the idiot MM who tried to jack his PA.

double standard much?

[Killer Cyborg]

every character class has some kind of vulnerability that can be exploited by fellow party members, IF they're jerks.

No accounting for taste there KC, if your character like doesn't like being sodomized or being killed by a GB, then A) set up better protections and B) don't be crazy enough to take on a GB w/out some serious fire power like two or three Naruni Plasma Gatling Rifles.

And if you don't like your GB being hijacked by psychics, set up better protections.

Personally, one of my protections is that I avoid gaming with psychotic jerks.

In any case I wouldn't put up with EITHER in the first place, both the GM and the stupid player would be visiting the Emergency room for being stupid enough to **** me off.

So why was that your go-to scenario...?

[Khord - Lizard Mage]

How about we get back to the purpose of this thread and talk about the scenario the OP requested, a LLW vs. a GB? If everyone still feels that the topic of TM Possession on GB's needs discussion, which I personally feel is a dead horse, then start a new thread. This one has been HIJACKED!!

I don't think a GB of any level has a chance against a competent mage, let alone a maxed out 15th level one. I will grant the GB has range and damage, but the mage's spells negate those advantages and when the mage gets close enough, the fun can begin in any number of ways.