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Palladium happily ignores the realities of the world for Technowizardry - rule it how you like for your games. The simple fact is that without people bringing them in from off dimension there isn't a source for gems for MANY common TW items in the United States because in the RIFTS world shipping between continents simply doesn't exist.

So they're either already using gems created in a lab (which many of the ones in Pre-Rifts jewelry stores would be - they are in real life) or they're just magically appearing/someone we have never been told about is doing a major import job from another dimension.

Godogma wrote:Palladium happily ignores the realities of the world for Technowizardry - rule it how you like for your games. The simple fact is that without people bringing them in from off dimension there isn't a source for gems for MANY common TW items in the United States because in the RIFTS world shipping between continents simply doesn't exist.

So they're either already using gems created in a lab (which many of the ones in Pre-Rifts jewelry stores would be - they are in real life) or they're just magically appearing/someone we have never been told about is doing a major import job from another dimension.

Or they are being mined from rifted in deposits.
Why are the simple answers always the ones over looked?

I'm not saying it's not possible, but the one area where the terrain seems to change due to Rift activity is the Dinosaur Swamp; it's the only place where such things have been described and it's ... weird.

*shrug* To each their own, just like everything else in the system house rule the hell out of it until it's playable.

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

A defective comparison, the bullets are different calibers, they aren't even remotely physically the same. Might as well try and toss out that a lump of coal and a diamond are both made of carbon so are interchangeable when again they are obviously not measurably the same even with both possessing carbon as their base element. Meanwhile the artificial gemstone and natural one are physically the same in all measurable ways of doing so, the only thing natural has over artificial is an artificially constructed distinction because people socially want to be able to go 'oh no my diamond ring was mined and straight from Africa not made in the USA'. There are no distinctions otherwise.

the bullets are not the same you say? But their chemical composition is identical... There for they are....
That's the logic being used to try and ignore the meta-physical difference between a natural and synthetic stone.
They are the equivalent of a different caliber.

Godogma wrote:I'm not saying it's not possible, but the one area where the terrain seems to change due to Rift activity is the Dinosaur Swamp; it's the only place where such things have been described and it's ... weird.

*shrug* To each their own, just like everything else in the system house rule the hell out of it until it's playable.

Why does everyone assume rifting only happens in one direction?
Where in the books does it even imply that?

You're making one hell of an assumption - I never said Rifting was all one way or even implied it did.

As to your other response on the idea of the .38 and .45 - we have NO IDEA as to the metaphysics involved. None of them have ever been explained in any meaningful way. But I'm not going to argue the point - like I said in my earlier post Rifts is essentially a dead game and there's no point arguing over the rules.

Godogma wrote:I'm not saying it's not possible, but the one area where the terrain seems to change due to Rift activity is the Dinosaur Swamp; it's the only place where such things have been described and it's ... weird.

*shrug* To each their own, just like everything else in the system house rule the hell out of it until it's playable.

Yes, not like it should be an issue unless a GM is just looking for ways to screw with a player by having his Techno-Wizard wasting his money purchasing gems that never or almost never work in which case if he was going to screw with someone to make his character ineffective like that he shouldn't have allowed the techno-wizard as a selection in the first place.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

A defective comparison, the bullets are different calibers, they aren't even remotely physically the same. Might as well try and toss out that a lump of coal and a diamond are both made of carbon so are interchangeable when again they are obviously not measurably the same even with both possessing carbon as their base element. Meanwhile the artificial gemstone and natural one are physically the same in all measurable ways of doing so, the only thing natural has over artificial is an artificially constructed distinction because people socially want to be able to go 'oh no my diamond ring was mined and straight from Africa not made in the USA'. There are no distinctions otherwise.

the bullets are not the same you say? But their chemical composition is identical... There for they are....
That's the logic being used to try and ignore the meta-physical difference between a natural and synthetic stone.
They are the equivalent of a different caliber.

No, they really aren't. You're presenting a deeply flawed comparison that simply does not represent the issue at hand. The two calibers of bullets aren't identical, they are comprised of more than just the round that comes out of the gun. What you're trying to argue is that two identical rounds for a .38 special, one natural and one artificial, only allows for the natural one to work in the gun in spite of there being absolutely no way to distinguish between the two bullets. You're arguing there is a measurable difference when there is not, that on some undefinable, undetectable level they're different when if there's no way to tell them apart then logically they're the same and should function interchangeably. Without any way to determine or detect which is which you simply cannot successfully argue that they are different because logically they are not.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

As an analogy for stones that are physically indistinguishable, you choose to use bullets that are physically distinguishable?

Please help me to understand your analogy.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

As an analogy for stones that are physically indistinguishable, you choose to use bullets that are physically distinguishable?

Please help me to understand your analogy.

--flatline

It's quite simple...
Physical characteristics do not equal meta-physical characteristics.
I am simply using an analogy that can be understood by all to show that just because the chemically two items are indistinguishable does not mean they are identical.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

As an analogy for stones that are physically indistinguishable, you choose to use bullets that are physically distinguishable?

Please help me to understand your analogy.

--flatline

It's quite simple...
Physical characteristics do not equal meta-physical characteristics.
I am simply using an analogy that can be understood by all to show that just because the chemically two items are indistinguishable does not mean they are identical.

Which is why I am asking how GMs deal with standard gem treatment methods. Or if they even deal with it, since rough gems and jewelry-quality gems are so detailed in their treatment methods.

On the other hand, I may well be thinking about this far too hard.

wyrmraker wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

flatline wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Perusing this thread (and my how heated it got), I'm not seeing why there's any issue with a Techno-Wizard using synthetic gems in a TW device. They're already mixing technology and magic why would there be a problem with using technology-created gemstones in a device that's already using technology as a basis for the magic involved?

Why cant I use a .45 caliber round in my .38 special? it doesnt matter... since a .38 and a .45 are bullets and made of lead arent they? there is no difference is there?

As an analogy for stones that are physically indistinguishable, you choose to use bullets that are physically distinguishable?

Please help me to understand your analogy.

--flatline

It's quite simple...
Physical characteristics do not equal meta-physical characteristics.
I am simply using an analogy that can be understood by all to show that just because the chemically two items are indistinguishable does not mean they are identical.

Which is why I am asking how GMs deal with standard gem treatment methods. Or if they even deal with it, since rough gems and jewelry-quality gems are so detailed in their treatment methods.

On the other hand, I may well be thinking about this far too hard.

Well I am at work at the moment and do not have access to my books...
But (IIRC) the books do not require the stones to be worked. (Again I may be mistaken in this belief).
So I would say the working of a NATURAL stone has no effect on how the magic operates.
There are those who will (and have) argue that use of the term gem is only used for worked stones. To this I point out that in over the 35 years of the hobby the term gem has been used interchangeably to refer to both worked and unworked stones.

So I am probably thinking about it too hard, check. Some say that only jewelry quality stones can be used for techno-wizardy (based on erroneous, non-applicable data from Atlantis), while others claim that rough gems can be used by canon (myself, as well as others).

Damian Magecraft wrote:Well I am at work at the moment and do not have access to my books...
But (IIRC) the books do not require the stones to be worked. (Again I may be mistaken in this belief).
So I would say the working of a NATURAL stone has no effect on how the magic operates.
There are those who will (and have) argue that use of the term gem is only used for worked stones. To this I point out that in over the 35 years of the hobby the term gem has been used interchangeably to refer to both worked and unworked stones.

DM is correct that the TW text does not require the stones and gems be cut and faceted. The TW rules only care about the weight of the stones/gems.

This requirement for cut stones/gems is only for the Stone Magic presented in the Rifts Atlantis Book.

Godogma wrote:As to your other response on the idea of the .38 and .45 - we have NO IDEA as to the metaphysics involved. None of them have ever been explained in any meaningful way.

Actually the argument on the meta-physics has been presented with canon cites to back up the conclusions.
The rebuttal was (and I am paraphrasing here) NUH UH!
No attempt to refute with counter points or cites.
And the only other meaningful argument against was an artful and entertaining attempt to misdirect the discussion by arguing the meaning of the term Meta-physics...
If you have a meaningful argument against the Metaphysics or at least one that refutes (and is more than just a wordy way to say NO IT IS NOT! IE: back up your argument with logic, Cites, and Canon material) the Pro-Meta-physics arguments presented up thread I am willing to entertain them until then the only argument that has merit is the Pro Meta-physical argument.

Godogma wrote: But I'm not going to argue the point

Then why did you even start posting in here the first time around?

Godogma wrote: - like I said in my earlier post Rifts is essentially a dead game and there's no point arguing over the rules.

Same question... if the game is "dead" why are you here posting?
Obviously you do not believe what you are spouting or you would not have bothered to post and argue so passionately about the rules as little as 4 months ago nor choose to throw in your two bits today.

I have a right to state my opinion on the matter just as much as any of you do. The reason I was here four months ago I don't remember, I think it was either nostalgia or because I had way too much hope for getting a game started at the time and enjoyed interacting with the community. The why's of my responses today are much simpler.

I was bored earlier and still am so I am here posting.

My RIFTS books are collecting dust, I got 1 character sheet out of 15 possible the last time I broached running RIFTS and everyone agreed the rules system was a huge charlie-foxtrot and no one would play it. I got some "this is interesting but these rules look like something from 0D&D!" and also "these rules contradict themselves" and a few other comments like that before I had to lug however many pounds of books back out to my car and home that day from the game store.

Online I had a bit more success... I got 2 character sheets back out of the other two groups. From the same person.

Godogma wrote:I have a right to state my opinion on the matter just as much as any of you do. The reason I was here four months ago I don't remember, I think it was either nostalgia or because I had way too much hope for getting a game started at the time and enjoyed interacting with the community. The why's of my responses today are much simpler.

I was bored earlier and still am so I am here posting.

My RIFTS books are collecting dust, I got 1 character sheet out of 15 possible the last time I broached running RIFTS and everyone agreed the rules system was a huge charlie-foxtrot and no one would play it. I got some "this is interesting but these rules look like something from 0D&D!" and also "these rules contradict themselves" and a few other comments like that before I had to lug however many pounds of books back out to my car and home that day from the game store.

Online I had a bit more success... I got 2 character sheets back out of the other two groups. From the same person.

and here my experiences contradict yours...
30 different players in my RL game club all willing to play and submitting characters regularly... (but then I do not run just Rifts; I run the entire gamut of Palladium settings as well as other game systems).
As to the complaints about rules? Never had the issue...
All members of the game club are told when they join the GM (I am not the only GM) is the final arbiter of all rules issues.
if two rules contradict the GM will decide which is valid or will resolve the contradiction which ever is expedient.
Failure to adhere to this mandate (arguing with GM, bad mouthing him or his decision, etc...) results in ejection from the table.
Multiple table ejections (from the same GM or other GMs) results in ejection from the club.

I have no problem getting people to play Palladium Fantasy; I know several people who love that setting/game.

They also hate Rifts with the burning passion of a thousand suns.

There are what? Roughly 1/10th of the amount of books for PF that there are for Rifts? Also, it seems like back then the games got a lot more playtesting than Rifts does now. Even with the "ultimate" edition the Rifts rules are anachronistic and out of date.

Your experience doesn't negate mine, but I'm glad you have a better experience than I have. The game stores around here and within 2 hours drive away from here refuse to even carry Palladium Books products. I can't recall seeing a game store carrying them in Savannah either when I was down there years ago and I spent more time in game stores then than I do now by far.

When your FLGS generally won't support the company and you can't get anyone to play the game in my opinion it's pretty much dead. I've heard similar concerns from several other people on these forums and people are continually trying to come up with a netbook to fix the rules... But yeah, I'm glad you have a better experience with Rifts than most everyone else I've ever heard from.

Godogma wrote:I have no problem getting people to play Palladium Fantasy; I know several people who love that setting/game.

They also hate Rifts with the burning passion of a thousand suns.

There are what? Roughly 1/10th of the amount of books for PF that there are for Rifts? Also, it seems like back then the games got a lot more playtesting than Rifts does now. Even with the "ultimate" edition the Rifts rules are anachronistic and out of date.

Your experience doesn't negate mine, but I'm glad you have a better experience than I have. The game stores around here and within 2 hours drive away from here refuse to even carry Palladium Books products. I can't recall seeing a game store carrying them in Savannah either when I was down there years ago and I spent more time in game stores then than I do now by far.

When your FLGS generally won't support the company and you can't get anyone to play the game in my opinion it's pretty much dead. I've heard similar concerns from several other people on these forums and people are continually trying to come up with a netbook to fix the rules... But yeah, I'm glad you have a better experience with Rifts than most everyone else I've ever heard from.

It didnt used to be like that...
10 years ago it was 3.x was the god of RPGs and if it wasnt d20 compatible then the FLGS wouldnt carry it.
Then I started dragging my Palladium books to the club meetings.
we started with PF and moved on to HU from there.
After HU was BTS.
Then RT.
After that It was Rifts.
Now I run 3 PF, 7 HU, 2 Rifts, 1 CE, 1BTS and 1 RT campaigns (rotating games obviously) and a handful of one shot demo games of the other Pally products. (as well as running Pathfinder, nWoD, Dresden Files (homebrew system), Mechwarrior, and Shadowrun campaigns).
game Demos are the key...
Once they play a game or two they get hooked on the system.

wyrmraker wrote:So I am probably thinking about it too hard, check. Some say that only jewelry quality stones can be used for techno-wizardy (based on erroneous, non-applicable data from Atlantis), while others claim that rough gems can be used by canon (myself, as well as others).

Yes don't waste time overthinking things. The ONLY one who can tell an artificial gem from a naturally formed one is the GM, if in the game the characters can't even tell when they logically ought to be able to detect the 'naturalness' of an item there's no point to worrying about 'is it a natural or artificial gem'. It's a gem, if it's the right kind and weight it's good enough.

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:So I am probably thinking about it too hard, check. Some say that only jewelry quality stones can be used for techno-wizardy (based on erroneous, non-applicable data from Atlantis), while others claim that rough gems can be used by canon (myself, as well as others).

Yes don't waste time overthinking things. The ONLY one who can tell an artificial gem from a naturally formed one is the GM, if in the game the characters can't even tell when they logically ought to be able to detect the 'naturalness' of an item there's no point to worrying about 'is it a natural or artificial gem'. It's a gem, if it's the right kind and weight it's good enough.

There is nothing to suggest that a TW (or stone mages or alchemist, or heck anymage) can't do some sort of arcane test to determine if a stone is or is not natural *shrugs* its not explicitly listed as something that can be done, but every possible contingiancy of magic isn't covered either. *shrugs* I would not hazard to guess what makes a gem good enough for magic, since *I* don't know magic

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:So I am probably thinking about it too hard, check. Some say that only jewelry quality stones can be used for techno-wizardy (based on erroneous, non-applicable data from Atlantis), while others claim that rough gems can be used by canon (myself, as well as others).

Yes don't waste time overthinking things. The ONLY one who can tell an artificial gem from a naturally formed one is the GM, if in the game the characters can't even tell when they logically ought to be able to detect the 'naturalness' of an item there's no point to worrying about 'is it a natural or artificial gem'. It's a gem, if it's the right kind and weight it's good enough.

There is nothing to suggest that a TW (or stone mages or alchemist, or heck anymage) can't do some sort of arcane test to determine if a stone is or is not natural *shrugs* its not explicitly listed as something that can be done, but every possible contingiancy of magic isn't covered either. *shrugs* I would not hazard to guess what makes a gem good enough for magic, since *I* don't know magic

Actually, the Gemology skill is supposed to be able to tell real from artificial gems.