E.B.S.I.S. - Eastern Baltic Soveriegn Independant States

[glitterboy2098]

i was actually thinking along the lines of "the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk had been working to get them produced since 2011, right after the rain of death, and sent a unit of the early production versions to the EBSIS for 'testing' in 2015.."

i figure the Sukhoi OKB production facilities at komsomolets-on-the-Amur would likely have been a VF-1 production facility, and they already have Su-27 and Su-47 plans to crib from..

[ZINO]

i was actually thinking along the lines of "the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk had been working to get them produced since 2011, right after the rain of death, and sent a unit of the early production versions to the EBSIS for 'testing' in 2015.."

i figure the Sukhoi OKB production facilities at komsomolets-on-the-Amur would likely have been a VF-1 production facility, and they already have Su-27 and Su-47 plans to crib from..

"the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk?????????????huh
and I got something for you to show u man!!!! wait till tonight Su-27 and Su-47 you want to use it

[glitterboy2098]

sorry... i've been pelling it wrong apparently.. Komsomolsk-on-Amur, home to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur_Aircraft_Production_Association. one of the few places in the world that can claim to have the ability to take raw materails and produce entire aircraft without needing to import any components from elsewhere.

and i see i have been attributing it to the wrong region. darn you Risk and your screwing up of my geography..

[Chris0013]

i was actually thinking along the lines of "the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk had been working to get them produced since 2011, right after the rain of death, and sent a unit of the early production versions to the EBSIS for 'testing' in 2015.."

i figure the Sukhoi OKB production facilities at komsomolets-on-the-Amur would likely have been a VF-1 production facility, and they already have Su-27 and Su-47 plans to crib from..

I would go with operational units but that the production facilities were heavily damaged during the RoD and they could not get them up and running for a while to start up full scale production again.....or something along those lines.


Also...how would your plane look if you flipped the wings to a forward swept type???

[glitterboy2098]

i was actually thinking along the lines of "the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk had been working to get them produced since 2011, right after the rain of death, and sent a unit of the early production versions to the EBSIS for 'testing' in 2015.."

i figure the Sukhoi OKB production facilities at komsomolets-on-the-Amur would likely have been a VF-1 production facility, and they already have Su-27 and Su-47 plans to crib from..

I would go with operational units but that the production facilities were heavily damaged during the RoD and they could not get them up and running for a while to start up full scale production again.....or something along those lines.


Also...how would your plane look if you flipped the wings to a forward swept type???

actually, i want to keep the design a purely post- RoD one.. mainly because i figure if there was going to be a companion or competitor to the VF-1 pre-RoD, it wouldn't just be a VF-1 playing dress up...
the Macross expanded universe did a good job with that though. the VF-0 is damn sexy (and to be honest, a major inspiration for my SU-27/VF-1 lovechild), and the SV-51 makes a wonderful competitor design.
but as cool as those two are, they just wouldn't fit into Robotech.. so i made my own design i thought would fit.

and i don't know if you could add FSW to the one i created without dropping the VF-1 based chassis.

[glitterboy2098]

update on the unnamed VF-1 derivative... after stumbling onto a size comparison between the VF-1 and the F-14, i've done some scaling. based on the size of the Su-27 parts i used, this unnamed fighter is going to end up almost 40% larger than the VF-1 in all aspects..

[glitterboy2098]

but if you scale the SU-27 parts down, the fighter can only be flown by midgets... the cockpit size is visible.

and i was only comparing fighter mode. battloid mode ought to be no more than 15-20%.

i'm going to be refiguring the sizes just to be sure.. comparing the SU-27 directly to the VF-1 say, and then comparing my design to both.

edit: here is the image that got me figuring. the Su-27 is a big bird, at 21 meters long, or 2 meters longer than a F-14, and almost 7 meters longer than a VF-1.. though i think at least 1.5 meters of that is the spike between the engines..

[Chris0013]

i was actually thinking along the lines of "the komsomolets-on-the-Amur Freehold in irktusk had been working to get them produced since 2011, right after the rain of death, and sent a unit of the early production versions to the EBSIS for 'testing' in 2015.."

i figure the Sukhoi OKB production facilities at komsomolets-on-the-Amur would likely have been a VF-1 production facility, and they already have Su-27 and Su-47 plans to crib from..

I would go with operational units but that the production facilities were heavily damaged during the RoD and they could not get them up and running for a while to start up full scale production again.....or something along those lines.


Also...how would your plane look if you flipped the wings to a forward swept type???

actually, i want to keep the design a purely post- RoD one.. mainly because i figure if there was going to be a companion or competitor to the VF-1 pre-RoD, it wouldn't just be a VF-1 playing dress up...
the Macross expanded universe did a good job with that though. the VF-0 is damn sexy (and to be honest, a major inspiration for my SU-27/VF-1 lovechild), and the SV-51 makes a wonderful competitor design.
but as cool as those two are, they just wouldn't fit into Robotech.. so i made my own design i thought would fit.

and i don't know if you could add FSW to the one i created without dropping the VF-1 based chassis.

I think the machinery where the wings connect would just have to be tweaked.....but that is all underneath the plane's hull. And we are talking a airplane that changes into a robot....I think we can go with a little suspension of disbelief on the technology aspects.

My thought on doing the FSW is that it gives us something a little different and moved the design somewhat away from the VF-1. I would also say to do a unique head design as well.

Just my $0.02 worth of input....

[glitterboy2098]

i've thought about looking into other wing shapes, including some of the swing wing russian birds, but those generally have less interesting shaped than the VF-1.

i've also considered just freehanding some changes to make the VF-1 parts look curvier, and mesh better with the sukhoi parts. i'd just have to avoid using too much VF-0 influence..

[Chris0013]

i've thought about looking into other wing shapes, including some of the swing wing russian birds, but those generally have less interesting shaped than the VF-1.

i've also considered just freehanding some changes to make the VF-1 parts look curvier, and mesh better with the sukhoi parts. i'd just have to avoid using too much VF-0 influence..

Have you considered F-15ish influence??

Starscream in the house....

[glitterboy2098]

having spent more time looking into the scale issue, i think i can stick to similar dimensions to the VF-0... that is, about 20% larger in all dimensions.. and closer to 25% on fighter length.

still darn big. you can pretty much carry one Logan under each wing, and strap more on as FAST packs....

[Jefffar]

Yeah, the Russians make some incredibly big fighters.

The Tu-128 for example, was so big, it could carry 15 tons of fuel internally. That's more than the entire loaded weight of an F-16!

[glitterboy2098]

although their larger size does at least allow them to carry ridiculous amounts of munitions. the SU-27 for example can load upwards of 8 tons of missiles and bombs on it's 10 hardpoints.

[ShadowLogan]

I think the machinery where the wings connect would just have to be tweaked.....but that is all underneath the plane's hull. And we are talking a airplane that changes into a robot....I think we can go with a little suspension of disbelief on the technology aspects.

My thought on doing the FSW is that it gives us something a little different and moved the design somewhat away from the VF-1. I would also say to do a unique head design as well.

Maybe a bit more work than simple tweaking. You would have to engineer in a wider grove to allow the wing to move like that (and change the VG hardware to allow the new sweep angles, and the software that controls this). May also require a custom wing (then again a custom wing might be made to be plug-in-play with the existing VG hardware). Either way I don't think that's a simple tweak.

If there was an existing design that could do a FSW it would have to be the Beta. The wings already able to sweep forward to be stowed in Battloid mode. Could probably tweak the mechanisim to allow FSW here.

[Jefffar]

although their larger size does at least allow them to carry ridiculous amounts of munitions. the SU-27 for example can load upwards of 8 tons of missiles and bombs on it's 10 hardpoints.

Very true, though it usually does far less, allowing it's massive engines to sling it around the sky like crazy.

[Jefffar]

MiG-29 is the 'light' fighter of the late Soviet union, yes.


Allegedly a corporate spy gave them Sukhoi's wind-tunnel data resulting in the two very similar looking aircraft.

[Chris0013]

I think the machinery where the wings connect would just have to be tweaked.....but that is all underneath the plane's hull. And we are talking a airplane that changes into a robot....I think we can go with a little suspension of disbelief on the technology aspects.

My thought on doing the FSW is that it gives us something a little different and moved the design somewhat away from the VF-1. I would also say to do a unique head design as well.

Maybe a bit more work than simple tweaking. You would have to engineer in a wider grove to allow the wing to move like that (and change the VG hardware to allow the new sweep angles, and the software that controls this). May also require a custom wing (then again a custom wing might be made to be plug-in-play with the existing VG hardware). Either way I don't think that's a simple tweak.

If there was an existing design that could do a FSW it would have to be the Beta. The wings already able to sweep forward to be stowed in Battloid mode. Could probably tweak the mechanisim to allow FSW here.

My point is all he has to do is flip them on the drawing and....handwavium...it works...all the parts/equipment to do it is technically under the hull....now if he was doing a cutaway showing all the mechanisms then he would have a ton of work to do on it. Without doing all that all he needs it to flip the wings and line them up in a way that looks good asthetically.

@GB
As fas as the size...so what....maybe it is larger than other contemporaries (sp?). I like it. Would you put some sort of internal missiles in it like the VF-4 supposedly had or will they all be wing mounted??

[ZINO]

but if you scale the SU-27 parts down, the fighter can only be flown by midgets... the cockpit size is visible.

and i was only comparing fighter mode. battloid mode ought to be no more than 15-20%.

i'm going to be refiguring the sizes just to be sure.. comparing the SU-27 directly to the VF-1 say, and then comparing my design to both.

edit: here is the image that got me figuring. the Su-27 is a big bird, at 21 meters long, or 2 meters longer than a F-14, and almost 7 meters longer than a VF-1.. though i think at least 1.5 meters of that is the spike between the engines..

wow
let make stats!!!......just joking
wow!!!

[glitterboy2098]

MiG-29 is the 'light' fighter of the late Soviet union, yes.


Allegedly a corporate spy gave them Sukhoi's wind-tunnel data resulting in the two very similar looking aircraft.

actually, at the time they were part of the same design bureau, so it was probably as simple as one of their engineers kibitzing with the other groups engineers.

i'm going to stick to the sukhoi parts (otherwise i have to rewrite large parts of the background already established.. Mikoyan OKB isn't part of KnAAPO..)

i can live with it being larger. it's a nice divergence from the canon design's and their focus on making everything smaller, despite the reductions in capabilities smaller airframes create. the UEG definately seems to be in the thrall of the Light Fighter Mafia, which gave us such aircraft as the F-5 Tiger and the early F-16 Falcon... all aircraft that despite using the cutting edge of the day yet proved to have major operational limitations due to the smaller size. they were just too small to take advantage of all the tech and design tricks available.

(you may have noticed.. i do not hold to the "everything after macross saw a tech regression" nihilism so many of the people here complain about. i just don't see it in the show or the RPG. macross mecha were just built like fancy luxury cars.. with every little option added. later designs are more like sports cars. not as fancy, but easier to build and maintain. or to put it in a aviation perspective... the VF-1 was a F-22 Raptor, the stuff after are all F-35's...)

[ZINO]

again very well done man!!!

[ShadowLogan]

My point is all he has to do is flip them on the drawing and....handwavium...it works...all the parts/equipment to do it is technically under the hull....now if he was doing a cutaway showing all the mechanisms then he would have a ton of work to do on it. Without doing all that all he needs it to flip the wings and line them up in a way that looks good asthetically.

well if you want to use handwavium anything can work.

[glitterboy2098]

the problem is that if you just "flip the wings', which i assume you mean the whole wingroot assembly, since that is the only way to get the angles needed, you screw up the entire transformation sequence. you'd end up with the wings trying to fold away in battloid mode into the same volume as the cockpit. because the only way to get a VF-1 to be FSW is to put the wing pivots and wingglove into what will become the chest of the mecha.

whats more, the resulting battloid will end up looking, IMO, very silly.


the alternative is redesigning the entire 'chest/wingroot' region to let you do FSW while leaving the wings as far backwards on the fuselage as they are currently. this would require basically redrawing the entire mecha (which my art skills are not up too..), and would result in a mecha with basically no front chest, so that wings with a bigger range of pivot could be made Forward swept.

again, IMO, the result would look rather silly.

or you go with a "big shoulders" approach, and expand the rear wingglove outwards to give it clearance of the front 'chest' region. which would cause issues with the arms, and frankly, would still be fairly silly looking.

[glitterboy2098]

partial update to the vehicle page .. more information provided, and the humvee and rosomak families of vehicles have been broken down into the major variants.

note that there are still a few vehicles i need to write up better descriptions for, and there are a few vehicles not included on the page yet that are in the works.


also, the AIM-120Eb SLAMRAAM-ER will be put up on the munitions page eventually. it's basically a AIM-120C (frag MRM with special guidance features), with a booster stage to enable it to be used from ground launcher systems (external carry only). the booster gives it about 50% longer range.

[taalismn]

partial update to the vehicle page .. more information provided, and the humvee and rosomak families of vehicles have been broken down into the major variants..

Looking good there!

[glitterboy2098]

minor tweak to history.. renamed Terran legion to "Varangian Legion". (va-ran-jee-an) sounds cooler, IMO. not quite connected to the region's past, but there is a historical parallel of the militaristic 'barbarian's' serving as mercenaries and protecting a major civilized nation.

[glitterboy2098]

an update on the ebsis veritech.. SU-57 Vampir

[ZINO]

an update on the ebsis veritech.. SU-57 Vampir

DAME AWESOME !!!!

[Arnie100]

an update on the ebsis veritech.. SU-57 Vampir

That wing design looks wicked!

[taalismn]

Yep...big happy supersonic, missile-toting, swept-wing bird....

[glitterboy2098]

i'll probably still make a few tweaks.. i'm not too happy with how the proportions worked out between the wings and the body.. i'm going to see what i can do to bulk up the aft section to match the rest.

[taalismn]

Really don't see much of an imbalance between the front and the back...and going too far in building up the rear quarters might end up with the Battloid form looking like it's wearing bellbottoms.
Though admittledy, you probably don't want a center of gravity TOO far forward, where it would lend itself to a tendency to pitch the aircraft into 'lawn-diving mode'.

[ZINO]

Really don't see much of an imbalance between the front and the back...and going too far in building up the rear quarters might end up with the Battloid form looking like it's wearing bellbottoms.
Though admittledy, you probably don't want a center of gravity TOO far forward, where it would lend itself to a tendency to pitch the aircraft into 'lawn-diving mode'.

agreed ~!!!

[glitterboy2098]

it's more that the wings look like they belong on a larger fighter. i'm tempted to shorten them slightly, to bring them back to the kind of proportions as the Su-27 wings they started out as (they have been heavily modified )

[glitterboy2098]

i put together a comparison between the VF-1 and the Su-57... note that KNAAPO, in my EBSIS material, manufactures both aircraft. (the VF-1 due to the factory-city being one of the UEG's mecha production facilities before the rain of death. unlike Macross, robotech doesn't have just one company making the mecha.. in fact the Wildstorm Comic about Roy and Project Valkyrie implies the best minds of all the worlds aviation companies were involved in the creation, so it makes sense that they'd also spread the production out to multiple companies in order to have enough Veritechs built quickly.)

and i think i've identified what feels wrong about the SU-57's wings.. i think those cut down wingtip rails throw the lines off just enough to look odd to my eyes. i need to trim those off, give the fighter a bit of a rounded wingtip, and see if that works better.

[Tiree]

Yeah - looks like the Valkyrie has a 90 degree angle from the leading edge on the tip. While the other looks like it was cut parallel to the centerline of the craft. What you should have is a comparison of the wings folded in.

[ShadowLogan]

If the rails are still functional on the tips, do they adjust position to stay parallel to the body or do they move into various angled positions with the rest of the wing?

[glitterboy2098]

If the rails are still functional on the tips, do they adjust position to stay parallel to the body or do they move into various angled positions with the rest of the wing?

they'd be non-functional. the original Su-27 rails are 4X that length, intended to carry ECM pods or IR guided air to air missiles (MRM's by size)

the only reason i'd even left them was i originally had hoped to use unmodified Su-27 wings in a non-variable-sweep configuration.. but the end result looked way to unstable. i cut them down, but didn't think about removing them entire until after i posted this version.

Yeah - looks like the Valkyrie has a 90 degree angle from the leading edge on the tip. While the other looks like it was cut parallel to the centerline of the craft. What you should have is a comparison of the wings folded in.

sadly, the limitations of the art i have and the program i'm using makes such comparisons difficult.

[Seto Kaiba]

unlike Macross, robotech doesn't have just one company making the mecha.. [...]

Actually, wrong on all counts... the Robotech universe never mentions or implies the presence of defense contractors, and repeatedly shows the United Earth military operating in a Star Trek style arrangement wherein a dedicated military R&D division is responsible for the development and construction of new ships and whatnot. Dr. Lang is depicted as the top man in this "agency", leading the development team in charge of the VF-1... at least until some unspecified time after they launched the Pioneer mission, when the torch was passed to Dr. Zand under the supervision of General T.R. Edwards.

On the other hand, Macross identifies DOZENS of companies involved in the development of Earth's initial generation of mecha. The underlying technology was reverse-engineered by OTEC, a multinational agency established by America, Britain, Japan, Germany, Russia, and France. Development of the Variable Fighter concept involved research and development done by Viggers, Chrauler, Centinental, Stonewell, Bellcom, Shinnakasu, and Northrom/Northrop Grumman... and that's just doing the basic design, not the internal hardware. The internal hardware and equipment drag another couple dozen names into it, including Erlikon, Bifors, Raytheon, Mauler, Howard, P&W, Roice, Hamilton-Ash, Marty & Beck, Ramington, and Kyuusei. VF-1 variants were manufactured by no less than four companies... Stonewell, Northrom, Centinental, and Shinnakasu (and also Takachihoff in the DYRLverse), who built over 5,000 units between December 2008 and January 2012 (and that's not even the full length of mass production). Additional development of VFs carried out concurrently with the VF-1 programme also involved Sukhoi, Dornier, and Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd., with additional hardware by Aviadvigatel, Klimov and Turopov.

(I'm not counting Shinsei in there, since that was formed by a merger of Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu in 2012... a savvy bloke might notice many of the above listed names are non-infringing "bland name" versions of real defense industry corporations.)

in fact the Wildstorm Comic about Roy and Project Valkyrie implies the best minds of all the worlds aviation companies were involved in the creation, so it makes sense that they'd also spread the production out to multiple companies in order to have enough Veritechs built quickly.)

Wildstorm's "From the Stars" limited series comic never implies the involvement of defense contractors of any kind, and only shows Dr. Lang's coterie of "military scientists" working on the plane.

[Colonel Wolfe]

a savvy bloke might notice many of the above listed names are non-infringing "bland name" versions of real defense industry corporations.)

I've read fans attribute the cyclone to the "Harland Davis" corporation...

[glitterboy2098]

unlike Macross, robotech doesn't have just one company making the mecha.. [...]

Actually, wrong on all counts... the Robotech universe never mentions or implies the presence of defense contractors, and repeatedly shows the United Earth military operating in a Star Trek style arrangement wherein a dedicated military R&D division is responsible for the development and construction of new ships and whatnot. Dr. Lang is depicted as the top man in this "agency", leading the development team in charge of the VF-1... at least until some unspecified time after they launched the Pioneer mission, when the torch was passed to Dr. Zand under the supervision of General T.R. Edwards.

On the other hand, Macross identifies DOZENS of companies involved in the development of Earth's initial generation of mecha. The underlying technology was reverse-engineered by OTEC, a multinational agency established by America, Britain, Japan, Germany, Russia, and France. Development of the Variable Fighter concept involved research and development done by Viggers, Chrauler, Centinental, Stonewell, Bellcom, Shinnakasu, and Northrom/Northrop Grumman... and that's just doing the basic design, not the internal hardware. The internal hardware and equipment drag another couple dozen names into it, including Erlikon, Bifors, Raytheon, Mauler, Howard, P&W, Roice, Hamilton-Ash, Marty & Beck, Ramington, and Kyuusei. VF-1 variants were manufactured by no less than four companies... Stonewell, Northrom, Centinental, and Shinnakasu (and also Takachihoff in the DYRLverse), who built over 5,000 units between December 2008 and January 2012 (and that's not even the full length of mass production). Additional development of VFs carried out concurrently with the VF-1 programme also involved Sukhoi, Dornier, and Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd., with additional hardware by Aviadvigatel, Klimov and Turopov.

(I'm not counting Shinsei in there, since that was formed by a merger of Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu in 2012... a savvy bloke might notice many of the above listed names are non-infringing "bland name" versions of real defense industry corporations.)

in fact the Wildstorm Comic about Roy and Project Valkyrie implies the best minds of all the worlds aviation companies were involved in the creation, so it makes sense that they'd also spread the production out to multiple companies in order to have enough Veritechs built quickly.)

Wildstorm's "From the Stars" limited series comic never implies the involvement of defense contractors of any kind, and only shows Dr. Lang's coterie of "military scientists" working on the plane.

i think your missing an obvious distinction here though.
in macross, the product is still associated completely with specific companies. the VF-1 is only connected to Stonewell/Bellcom/Shinnakasu for example. the SV-51 is a Sukhoi/Dornier/IAI product, etc. so while obviously the technology was spread around, the development processes didn't deviate too much for the real world procurement concepts. each aircraft design was the result of a team-up of only a few corp's.

in robotech, there are no specific company's involved. as you pointed out, Project Valkyrie in robotech (and presumably project Excalibur as well), appears to have been done by a multinational military think tank. quite differently from real world procurement processes, but then, the UEG was a quasi-dictatorial militarist organization going by how robotech treated them.
but where did those scientists come from? obviously the people had to come from somewhere. clearly they would have been recruited from existing programs. and just a group of scientists wouldn't be able to translate the technology they reverse engineered into a viable aircraft. the ones who are working on understanding the reactors and armor and such derived from the SDF-1 are not going to have the skill to design, perfect, and build working aircraft from blueprint to prototype.
so obviously they had engineers capable of designing and building aircraft in there too. where would you get such people for a military project? by Shanghai'ing them from existing aviation design corporations.
the final product, in Robotech, might not be connected to any particular corporation, but you can bet the UEG recruited the best people from all the major corps. you might have had a guy from Lockheed working along side a guy from sukhoi, while bouncing ideas off people from SAAB, etc.

[glitterboy2098]

a VF-1 is not a 'modified F-14", it's a completely new airframe. any similarity in design is comparable to the similarity of a Eurofighter to a F-106 delta Dart. one of gross visuals and aerodynamic restrictions. you cannot take an existing fighter, just slap a set of arms and legs on it, and call it a veritech.

nor does the VF-1, in robotech, carry any aircraft avionics that real world planes of equivalent generation would carry. at least, as far as fighters go. the AESA radar used on the VF-1 for example, is pretty much the same as the one of the F-22 Raptor, going by stats and rough size. it uses the same kind of adaptive Fly by Wire that all 5th generation, and most generation 4.5, aircraft are made with.
so there is no "reduced size avionics" involved.

the key technological difference between something like a F-22 or Sukhoi T-50, and a VF-1 is the fusion engines, and the additional hydralics and electric actuators needed to allow mode shifts to limbed forms. the design difference in terms of the design of the airframe, in order to handle the different stresses of each mode, requires a custom designed structure however.

as it was, i was planing to use Russian derived avionics for the most part. the russians have superior PESA radars for example (passively electronically scanned array.. basically it's an AESA but where you have a dedicated transmitter array rather than the scanning arrays pulling double duty. not only is more durable, but it is more compact. plus the russian versions tend to have nifty features like radar mapping modes, and the ability to target multiple aircraft at a time, and guide missiles to those targets simultaniously. in palladium terms, this would be 'one volley, multiple targets') they also have a tendancy to mount smaller versions to the aft, providing the fighter the ability to shoot missiles at targets behind it.
not to mention they have superior abilities in terms of Infrared search and track systems, which use thermal cameras to find and target enemies. the russian models can even target for radar guided missiles withut the need for a fighter-to-missile datalink, like the american electro-optical systems mounted on the F-14 and the F-35.

the downside of the russian systems is shorter ranges, less powerful computers leading to longer processing times, and over all just being a generation or two behind the current NATO tech. which is why the US militaries and the NATO militaries ae all so worried over the T-50 PAK-FA.. it's got the same radars and such as the Su-37 demonstrator did (making almost on par with an F-22, despite the use of less 'cutting edge' systems), plus several additional systems like omnidirectional thermal camera arrays and L-band radars that can defeat current stealth methods, but it also has up to date computer hardware and software, including an 'expert system' which is basically a Learning AI program designed to help the pilot manage all the data from the sensors and electronic systems. thus letting it avoid the information over load pilots in the F-22 have been dealing with.

[ZINO]

wow!!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

a savvy bloke might notice many of the above listed names are non-infringing "bland name" versions of real defense industry corporations.)

I've read fans attribute the cyclone to the "Harland Davis" corporation...

Nice. Makes me wanna go dig out my copy of that Unnamed Unit, 2nd Squadron: VR-052 MOSPEADA tech manual doujin. Interesting reading there, even if it's unofficial.

i think your missing an obvious distinction here though.
in macross, the product is still associated completely with specific companies. the VF-1 is only connected to Stonewell/Bellcom/Shinnakasu for example. the SV-51 is a Sukhoi/Dornier/IAI product, etc. so while obviously the technology was spread around, the development processes didn't deviate too much for the real world procurement concepts. each aircraft design was the result of a team-up of only a few corp's.

Didn't I just finish illustrating that that wasn't true? Yes, in Macross, the VF-1 is most commonly associated with the companies (plural!) that co-developed and manufactured it like any other modern aircraft. However, what you said was:

unlike Macross, robotech doesn't have just one company making the mecha.. [...]

Just because the VF-1 is most commonly associated with the defense contractors who designed it (Stonewell and Bellcom) doesn't mean it's not also connected to other companies. You'd have a hard time talking about the VF-1's development in the Macross universe without connecting it to Viggers, Chrauler, and Centinental for their involvement in the Battroid configuration; Centinental and Northrom for building the VF-1A, Shinnakasu and Kyuusei for collaborating on the design for the VF-1J and its construction, Northrom for manufacturing the VF-1S, and Takachihoff for creating the VE-1 (in the DYRL timeline); Shinnakasu, P&W, and Roice for designing and manufacturing the VF-1's reaction engines (with involvement from Hamilton-Ash); Shinnakasu, P&W, Mauler, and Bifors for collaborating on the FAST packs; I could go on...

Likewise, to draw on a real world example, you could say that the F-22A is most commonly connected to its developers at Lockheed Martin and Boeing, but if you actually want to talk about its construction and capabilities you can connect it to Raytheon, BAE, and Northrop Grumman just by talking about its avionics package. Development involved over a thousand companies.

in robotech, there are no specific company's involved. as you pointed out, Project Valkyrie in robotech (and presumably project Excalibur as well), appears to have been done by a multinational military think tank. quite differently from real world procurement processes, but then, the UEG was a quasi-dictatorial militarist organization going by how robotech treated them.

Which is correct, but runs counter to your original assertion that, in Macross, "just one" company was involved in the production of the VF-1, and that more than one company was involved in making Robotech's VF-1. The truth is that, in Robotech, zero companies can be connected to the development and construction of the VF-1 because, as I said and you've reiterated, it was developed by a military robotechnology think tank and apparently built by the military... just like the other VFs in the series.

but where did those scientists come from? obviously the people had to come from somewhere. clearly they would have been recruited from existing programs.

Dubious... their backstories are never discussed, and in the few cases where they've tried depicting it (now non-canon) their biggest mover and shaker is some kind of techno-savant researcher who may or may not have simply had a bunch of technical data dumped directly into his brain by an alien computer. The idea that they're coming from all over falls flat on them all apparently being German just like Dr. Lang. (So, maybe Dornier... maybe. It still amuses me that the guy is such a minor and uninvolved character in the OSM that Macross didn't give any version of the character a name until 2009.)

I had the WEIRD thought that "robotechnologists" are basically one step away from being the Adeptus Mechanicus, since they don't really understand a lot of the tech they build and use... I was consoling myself with the idea that at least the lot of 'em didn't pray to the machines when I remembered the Sentinels arc of the McKinney novels.

It occurs to me that if the frame of an F-14 can be modified to produce a reduced size VF-1, then why couldn't you accomplish the same reduction in size from an SU-47 or MIG-29? It's not like the avionics aren't going to be more compact in such a craft anyhow, since that is a staple aspect of Robotechnology.

Well... for one, the VF-1 isn't a modified F-14. Even the RPG asserts that the similarity is cosmetic only. (The VF-1 also has a rather different profile from the actual F-14 too.)

plus the russian versions tend to have nifty features like radar mapping modes, and the ability to target multiple aircraft at a time, and guide missiles to those targets simultaniously. in palladium terms, this would be 'one volley, multiple targets') they also have a tendancy to mount smaller versions to the aft, providing the fighter the ability to shoot missiles at targets behind it.

Capabilities the VF-1 has been shown with in the series... so not necessarily an idea confined to EBSIS versions. (From an OSM standpoint, the know-how was probably contributed by Russian companies involved in OTEC.)

[glitterboy2098]

it's not superior. the russian radar, by limitations of its design, has about half the range of an AESA of the same power use, and can track about a quarter of the number of targets. part of the reason the russians like to build their radars with the ability to shoot multple targets in one go is due to the fact that they can't see the enemy as far off. and their datalink tech is not nearly as effective (shorter ranged, mostly), so they build their fighters to assume bouts of heavy combat at shorter distances, instead of the extra long distance engagements that NATO style hardware allows.

and this fighter, due to being larger and optimized more for atmospheric strikes, is more sluggish and less agile than a VF-1. especially at high altitudes and in vacuum, which it isn't designed to handle. plus the armor works out to about the same as a VF-1, despite the extra size.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] i didn't mean to say the VF-1 was a modified F-14, but rather that a great deal of the aerodynamic properties of that craft (swing wings, outwardly canted tail fins, engine intakes, that sort of thing) obviously had some degree of impact on the design of the VF-1. Those same characteristics were clearly significantly larger when they were looked at, and were rescaled [...] to suit a craft that was much smaller in size.

Actually, most of the VF-1's design similarities to the F-14 are superficial and cosmetic in nature. The VF-1's got a lot of aerodynamic tweaks and bleeding edge aids to maneuverability that are either not present on modern fighters or are poached from various F-16 demonstrators. (IIRC, the VF-1's size is also much closer to the F-16.)

(Query: Is it actually canon that the Earth knew how large a Zentraedi tended to be in ~2000 or so? I presume so, but now I can't recall one way or the other for sure.)

Roy's dialogue in the first three episodes certainly suggests they did, as does his dialogue with T.R. Edwards in the "From the Stars" limited series.

Lastly, all of those traits you attribute to the Russian radar systems are wonderful chief. However, they are either not readily apparent in Robotech, or are presumed to be a given factor in designs for radars developed from a combination of Robotechnology and conventional human radar systems.

Actually, the ability to acquire and fire on multiple targets simultaneously is demonstrated by the VF-1 on a number of occasions in the original Macross series (and, consequentially, Robotech's Macross Saga). Firing on a group of targets simultaneously is most readily visible when the VF-1s use their Super Packs. IIRC, they also show one or two occasions of VF-1s popping multiple Regults with their usual AMM-1's as well.

[glitterboy2098]

updated art..

fighter mode
Battloid mock up - made using parts from the fighter and Robert Beechy's battloid front views. the head is a custom piece. this is not intended to be accurate, just to give a general idea.

[ZINO]

updated art..

fighter mode
Battloid mock up - made using parts from the fighter and Robert Beechy's battloid front views. the head is a custom piece. this is not intended to be accurate, just to give a general idea.

dame awesome !!! man !!!!
just something the star are they suppose to be red? and what the loads and HULL stats

[glitterboy2098]

ignore the US airforce roundels on the battloid image.. it's just a mockup, and the battloid parts i had to work with came off a guy's art of VF-1's in US airforce color schemes. his art was in .jpeg, so it has massive color artifacts due to how that format 'smears' color data over surrounding pixels.

[Seto Kaiba]

updated art..

fighter mode
Battloid mock up - made using parts from the fighter and Robert Beechy's battloid front views. the head is a custom piece. this is not intended to be accurate, just to give a general idea.

Lookin' good... what program are you using to build the composite of the battroid front view and fighter art?

[glitterboy2098]

MSpaint.