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Looonatic wrote:SO the Gun Master had demon skin armor(despite being a quick-flex alien) and the Psi-slinger had no armor at all.

The Quick-Flex thing is what I did earlier. It has nothing to do with Lenwen's trials.
The Demon Skin Armor is a skin graft that is unique to the Gun Master (And the other Geofront OCCs). Considering they all have it and it isn't removable, it qualifies more of an OCC ability than equipment.
I assume they would both be wearing armor but considering they are both equally capable at wearing armor, I didn't bother giving them one to wear as it isn't a variable. They are both the same. The Demon Skin Armor is worth mentioning because it is an ability of only one of those OCCs.

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Ok just ran a test model of 50 battles.

Psi-Slinger vs Gun master. Both at maxed abilities and stats .. Psi-slinger won aprox 8 battles.. Gun Master wont 42 battles..

The two over riding abilities of the Gun Master can shining threw and exposed major deficiencies in the Psi-Slinger's abilities ..

1) - Gun master's ability to extend the range of his weapons. +10% range per lvl. Lvl 15 means +150% range of his weapons over that of the Psi-Slingers. This was something the Slinger could not overcome an what won the battle most of the time for the Gun Master.

2) - Gun Master's ability to teleport weapons into his hands. The Weapons in question were two pistol's who have mico nuke cells which had enabled the pistols to have as many as 220 rounds each .. (440 total rounds duel wielding) with more pistols ready to be teleported into his hands.

The ability to change the nature of the incoming damage was only a marginal use for the Slinger due to the insane amount of ammo the GM had at his use. How ever the ability to dodge bullets became the game changer for the GM when they closed ranks and got within each others weapon range.

So quick recap..

1) - Near unlimited ammo for the GM .. Coupled with the fact that the Slinger was unable to reload at all ..
2) - Ability to dodge bullets by the GM .. beat out the ability to lessen the damage taken by the Slinger.
3) - Range is what took the majority of the battles .. and the Gun Master's ability to out range his opponant ment he won many many many battles based off just this alone..

Edge - Gun Master, 42 wins 8 losses to the Slinger. In a test play.. My twin daughter's rolled each out each took the other's character an I GM'ed.

Hope this helps.

I'm stunned the ability to convert MDC energy attacks to SDC wasn't more valuable.

Its not that it was not valuble .. it saved the slinger's life quite a bit . But the fact remains he was still taking damage. And since this was a battle of slingers .. I did not allow Armor. So straight up as is 15th lvl powers only max stats .. weapons out of their books.

The abilities of the Gun Master were just too powerful to overcome for the slinger. who once they were out of ammo .. it was a slaughterfest .. and that more then anything sept the range of the Gun Master's weapons is what tipt the hand beyond anything the Slinger could bring to bere..

SO the Gun Master had demon skin armor(despite being a quick-flex alien) and the Psi-slinger had no armor at all.

neither had armor, however .. 1 was able to dodge the other's attacks even if he chose to get close enough to allow the other to attack.

Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Exactly.. what it came down to.

The powers of the Gun Master were just too much for the powers of the Slinger to compensate for ..

Gun Master's ability to extend his range and teleport new weapons into his hands ment more ammo and further reaching rounds.

Two things the Slinger had no way to counter ..

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Exactly.. what it came down to.

The powers of the Gun Master were just too much for the powers of the Slinger to compensate for ..

Gun Master's ability to extend his range and teleport new weapons into his hands ment more ammo and further reaching rounds.

Two things the Slinger had no way to counter ..

How far away were they when combat started? One virtually invisible mind bolt(1500 ft range at level 15) should have been more than sufficient.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

Why is he a minor MDC being?

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Exactly.. what it came down to.

The powers of the Gun Master were just too much for the powers of the Slinger to compensate for ..

Gun Master's ability to extend his range and teleport new weapons into his hands ment more ammo and further reaching rounds.

Two things the Slinger had no way to counter ..

How far away were they when combat started? One virtually invisible mind bolt(1500 ft range at level 15) should have been more than sufficient.

Not when the range of the Gun Master's pistol was 2,500ft .. (not including the 2.5 mile range of the micro mini missile)

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Exactly.. what it came down to.

The powers of the Gun Master were just too much for the powers of the Slinger to compensate for ..

Gun Master's ability to extend his range and teleport new weapons into his hands ment more ammo and further reaching rounds.

Two things the Slinger had no way to counter ..

How far away were they when combat started? One virtually invisible mind bolt(1500 ft range at level 15) should have been more than sufficient.

Not when the range of the Gun Master's pistol was 2,500ft .. (not including the 2.5 mile range of the micro mini missile)

SO these two gun nuts started their combat from 2.5 miles away???

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

Exactly.. what it came down to.

The powers of the Gun Master were just too much for the powers of the Slinger to compensate for ..

Gun Master's ability to extend his range and teleport new weapons into his hands ment more ammo and further reaching rounds.

Two things the Slinger had no way to counter ..

How far away were they when combat started? One virtually invisible mind bolt(1500 ft range at level 15) should have been more than sufficient.

Not when the range of the Gun Master's pistol was 2,500ft .. (not including the 2.5 mile range of the micro mini missile)

SO these two gun nuts started their combat from 2.5 miles away???

They started out at 1 mile away. Knew each other was the target, and went hunting..

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

Why is he a minor MDC being?

The demon skin graft.

Looonatic wrote:Why is he a minor MDC being?

This show's me why people do not choose the right class when some one askes whos the baddest mofo outta this line up ..

People do not seem to read up on the characters involved. (This is not a slight to you Loo) this just goes to show people want 1 to win, even with out knowing all the powers /abilities of the other combatents ..

I actually read threw them, and then play tested what appeared to be to me the top two ..

And hands down the one who came out on top by a huge margin was in fact the Gun Master.

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Not when the range of the Gun Master's pistol was 2,500ft .. (not including the 2.5 mile range of the micro mini missile)

SO these two gun nuts started their combat from 2.5 miles away???

They started out at 1 mile away. Knew each other was the target, and went hunting..

In an open field on a clear day?

Is that the gun master's style? Because it doesn't sound like a psi-slinger's typical duel scenario.

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Not when the range of the Gun Master's pistol was 2,500ft .. (not including the 2.5 mile range of the micro mini missile)

SO these two gun nuts started their combat from 2.5 miles away???

They started out at 1 mile away. Knew each other was the target, and went hunting..

In an open field on a clear day?

Is that the gun master's style? Because it doesn't sound like a psi-slinger's typical duel scenario.

High noon .. center road of a town .. two gun slinger's out on the old durty dusty road .. hunting for each other .. just like the movie's portray ..

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

Why is he a minor MDC being?

The demon skin graft.

A) Does that work on Quick-flex aliens?
B) Would the Geofront graft it onto a non-human?
C) Why doesn't the Psi-slinger get armor if the Gun Master does?

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:In an open field on a clear day?

Is that the gun master's style? Because it doesn't sound like a psi-slinger's typical duel scenario.

High noon .. center road of a town .. two gun slinger's out on the old durty dusty road .. hunting for each other .. just like the movie's portray ..

In the movies, they usually start a wee bit closer together.

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

Why is he a minor MDC being?

The demon skin graft.

A) Does that work on Quick-flex aliens?
B) Would the Geofront graft it onto a non-human?
C) Why doesn't the Psi-slinger get armor if the Gun Master does?

A+B) Should do. They have DBees in their military and it states that all of the Geofront military receive the skin graft without exception.
C) They can both have armor, it is just that whatever armor the Psi-Slinger will have, the Gun Master will also have the equivalent of. The skin graft is in excess to whatever armor they are both wearing, so as a variable unique to only one side, it needs mentioned. Armor doesn't require mentioning because they both share it in common, it isn't a variable.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

A) Does that work on Quick-flex aliens?
B) Would the Geofront graft it onto a non-human?
C) Why doesn't the Psi-slinger get armor if the Gun Master does?

A+B) Should do. They have DBees in their military and it states that all of the Geofront military receive the skin graft without exception.
C) They can both have armor, it is just that whatever armor the Psi-Slinger will have, the Gun Master will also have the equivalent of. The skin graft is in excess to whatever armor they are both wearing, so as a variable unique to only one side, it needs mentioned. Armor doesn't require mentioning because they both share it in common, it isn't a variable.

Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well with the weapons listed, if they were both unarmored SDC beings, the one that hits first wins.

A Gun Master is a minor MDC being and has a chance of surviving a MD blast or two without armor and has a reasonable chance of dodging more. Still, I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to leave the house without as much protection as possible .

A) Does that work on Quick-flex aliens?
B) Would the Geofront graft it onto a non-human?
C) Why doesn't the Psi-slinger get armor if the Gun Master does?

A+B) Should do. They have DBees in their military and it states that all of the Geofront military receive the skin graft without exception.
C) They can both have armor, it is just that whatever armor the Psi-Slinger will have, the Gun Master will also have the equivalent of. The skin graft is in excess to whatever armor they are both wearing, so as a variable unique to only one side, it needs mentioned. Armor doesn't require mentioning because they both share it in common, it isn't a variable.

Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

No because it is an OCC ability of the Gun Master, you start trading OCC abilities and it becomes pure chaos.

EDIT: Actually I am going to retract that statement and do a bit of research first - it could be possible that the Geofront could have Psi-Slingers in it and in that case, the Slinger too would have the skin graft. Although, it would be extremely unfair to have them both be part of the Geofront and then take the battle outside of China.

EDIT 2: I am going to retract that retraction. The only way a Psi-slinger could be in the Geofront is by being a Mystic Consultant. Even that sounds rather dubious as a Psi-Slinger but more importantly, Mystic Consultants are not an official part of the military and don't get skin grafts.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

No because it is an OCC ability of the Gun Master, you start trading OCC abilities and it becomes pure chaos.

But assuming there are quick-flex aliens in the Geofront isn't? With Naruni weaponry?

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

No because it is an OCC ability of the Gun Master, you start trading OCC abilities and it becomes pure chaos.

But assuming there are quick-flex aliens in the Geofront isn't? With Naruni weaponry?

The Geofront aren't DBee haters and welcome them in their military. We have no idea what DBees are there and have to substitute our own. Quick Flex are very generic and appropriate.
It is far more likely that a Quick Flex would be a Gun Master in the Geofront than a Psi-Slinger considering they can't actually have psionics (my bad) either way, being a Quick Flex adds nothing to the Gun Master, it actually detracts from them by limiting their PP - a human has a higher potential for PP than a Quick Flex which counters the +1 to strike offered by that race (which is all a Gun Master has use for). A Quick Flex Alien is a race that doesn't synergize with the Gun Master at all, it makes them weaker. The same isn't true for the Psi-Slinger, a Quick-Flex Psi-Slinger would have higher SDC than a human and higher autododge bonuses, it synergizes very, very well with a Slinger.
Naruni Weaponry is something both classes would have equal access to if the battle was taking place outside of China. It is also something that adds further handicap to the Gun Master - if he was using the rifles manufactured by the Geofront (which are all Carbines or Chi-based), he would completely ignore the Energy Resistance of the Slinger and do far more damage per attack. Using Naruni weapons was something I chose to do to remove the technology variable for the sake of comparison, even if that choice is one that favoured the Slinger.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

No because it is an OCC ability of the Gun Master, you start trading OCC abilities and it becomes pure chaos.

But assuming there are quick-flex aliens in the Geofront isn't? With Naruni weaponry?

The Geofront aren't DBee haters and welcome them in their military. We have no idea what DBees are there and have to substitute our own. Quick Flex are very generic and appropriate.
It is far more likely that a Quick Flex would be a Gun Master in the Geofront than a Psi-Slinger considering they can't actually have psionics (my bad) either way, being a Quick Flex adds nothing to the Gun Master, it actually detracts from them by limiting their PP - a human has a higher potential for PP than a Quick Flex which counters the +1 to strike offered by that race (which is all a Gun Master has use for). A Quick Flex Alien is a race that doesn't synergize with the Gun Master at all, it makes them weaker. The same isn't true for the Psi-Slinger, a Quick-Flex Psi-Slinger would have higher SDC than a human and higher autododge bonuses, it synergizes very, very well with a Slinger.
Naruni Weaponry is something both classes would have equal access to if the battle was taking place outside of China. It is also something that adds further handicap to the Gun Master - if he was using the rifles manufactured by the Geofront (which are all Carbines or Chi-based), he would completely ignore the Energy Resistance of the Slinger and do far more damage per attack. Using Naruni weapons was something I chose to do to remove the technology variable for the sake of comparison, even if that choice is one that favoured the Slinger.

Actually, a choice that favored the slinger would be something easily and readily found in North America such as Wilk's laser pistols(identical weapons for both characters). Choosing weapons that can blast apart light MDC armor with one shot certainly doesn't favor the Slinger.

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:
Then the Psi-slinger gets the graft too, right?

No because it is an OCC ability of the Gun Master, you start trading OCC abilities and it becomes pure chaos.

But assuming there are quick-flex aliens in the Geofront isn't? With Naruni weaponry?

The Geofront aren't DBee haters and welcome them in their military. We have no idea what DBees are there and have to substitute our own. Quick Flex are very generic and appropriate.
It is far more likely that a Quick Flex would be a Gun Master in the Geofront than a Psi-Slinger considering they can't actually have psionics (my bad) either way, being a Quick Flex adds nothing to the Gun Master, it actually detracts from them by limiting their PP - a human has a higher potential for PP than a Quick Flex which counters the +1 to strike offered by that race (which is all a Gun Master has use for). A Quick Flex Alien is a race that doesn't synergize with the Gun Master at all, it makes them weaker. The same isn't true for the Psi-Slinger, a Quick-Flex Psi-Slinger would have higher SDC than a human and higher autododge bonuses, it synergizes very, very well with a Slinger.
Naruni Weaponry is something both classes would have equal access to if the battle was taking place outside of China. It is also something that adds further handicap to the Gun Master - if he was using the rifles manufactured by the Geofront (which are all Carbines or Chi-based), he would completely ignore the Energy Resistance of the Slinger and do far more damage per attack. Using Naruni weapons was something I chose to do to remove the technology variable for the sake of comparison, even if that choice is one that favoured the Slinger.

Actually, a choice that favored the slinger would be something easily and readily found in North America such as Wilk's laser pistols(identical weapons for both characters). Choosing weapons that can blast apart light MDC armor with one shot certainly doesn't favor the Slinger.

With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

Giant2005 wrote:With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

THose aren't identical weapons. If you want to know who is the deadliest gunman, arm them all with the same weapon. Otherwise, you're just measuring the damage of the weapons.

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

THose aren't identical weapons. If you want to know who is the deadliest gunman, arm them all with the same weapon. Otherwise, you're just measuring the damage of the weapons.

But using the same weapon is removing what is probably the most powerful (and unique to that OCC) ability that the Gun Master has: The ability to Dual-Wield Rifles.
If they are to be compared equally, the Slinger gets a pistol and the Master gets the Rifle counterpart to that pistol, otherwise you are removing the most powerful OCC ability of the Gun Master and penalizing him even further.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

THose aren't identical weapons. If you want to know who is the deadliest gunman, arm them all with the same weapon. Otherwise, you're just measuring the damage of the weapons.

But using the same weapon is removing what is probably the most powerful (and unique to that OCC) ability that the Gun Master has: The ability to Dual-Wield Rifles.
If they are to be compared equally, the Slinger gets a pistol and the Master gets the Rifle counterpart to that pistol, otherwise you are removing the most powerful OCC ability of the Gun Master and penalizing him even further.

Okay, how about the Psi-slinger with the Wilk's 320 laser pistol and the Gun Master with it's counterpart, the Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle.

Are you starting to see the point I'm trying to make? You can't compare 'deadliest gunmen' if the weapon matters more than the gunman.

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

THose aren't identical weapons. If you want to know who is the deadliest gunman, arm them all with the same weapon. Otherwise, you're just measuring the damage of the weapons.

But using the same weapon is removing what is probably the most powerful (and unique to that OCC) ability that the Gun Master has: The ability to Dual-Wield Rifles.
If they are to be compared equally, the Slinger gets a pistol and the Master gets the Rifle counterpart to that pistol, otherwise you are removing the most powerful OCC ability of the Gun Master and penalizing him even further.

Okay, how about the Psi-slinger with the Wilk's 320 laser pistol and the Gun Master with it's counterpart, the Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle.

Are you starting to see the point I'm trying to make? You can't compare 'deadliest gunmen' if the weapon matters more than the gunman.

Those are fair comparisons but they are also the weakest pistol and rifle in the game respectively...
Trying to make a case for a gunman equipped with either of them to be the deadliest gunman around would be a very, very difficult task considering their counterparts with better weapons will always be more deadly.

I do see the point you are trying to make but they are gunmen, the guns are always going to matter. I do submit that with the weakest weapons available, the Energy Resistance of the Slinger is going to be far more valuable. I just don't really think it is fair to give the Gun Master one of only a few weapons in the Megaverse that he can't use to damage a Psi-Slinger and then expect him to compete. With 99% of the weapons out there, the Gun-Master has a fairly easily achieved victory, with that other 1% the odds are a bit harder to determine as the Gun Master is forced into using his melee attacks. Although the Gun Master is faster than the slinger and shouldn't have trouble staying in melee range and his kick far out-damages the Wilks pistol, so if he is capable of reaching melee range before suffering too much damage, he will still win even while suffering the ultimate handicap.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:With comparable Wilk's technology, the Psi-Slinger would be equipped with a 227 and the Master with a 457.
The slinger would inflict 8D6 damage per attack averaged to 28MD.
The Master would inflict 2D6x10 damage per attack averaged to 70MD and then halved to 35MD.
Such a change would put the advantage further in the hands of the Master as now he does more damage per attack, with the Naruni weapons they did the same damage per attack.

Either way it is irrelevant because the deadliest gun man around isn't either of these Wilks using characters, it is their counterparts with the biggest guns on the market.

THose aren't identical weapons. If you want to know who is the deadliest gunman, arm them all with the same weapon. Otherwise, you're just measuring the damage of the weapons.

But using the same weapon is removing what is probably the most powerful (and unique to that OCC) ability that the Gun Master has: The ability to Dual-Wield Rifles.
If they are to be compared equally, the Slinger gets a pistol and the Master gets the Rifle counterpart to that pistol, otherwise you are removing the most powerful OCC ability of the Gun Master and penalizing him even further.

Okay, how about the Psi-slinger with the Wilk's 320 laser pistol and the Gun Master with it's counterpart, the Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle.

Are you starting to see the point I'm trying to make? You can't compare 'deadliest gunmen' if the weapon matters more than the gunman.

Those are fair comparisons but they are also the weakest pistol and rifle in the game respectively...
Trying to make a case for a gunman equipped with either of them to be the deadliest gunman around would be a very, very difficult task considering their counterparts with better weapons will always be more deadly.

I do see the point you are trying to make but they are gunmen, the guns are always going to matter. I do submit that with the weakest weapons available, the Energy Resistance of the Slinger is going to be far more valuable. I just don't really think it is fair to give the Gun Master one of only a few weapons in the Megaverse that he can't use to damage a Psi-Slinger and then expect him to compete. With 99% of the weapons out there, the Gun-Master has a fairly easily achieved victory, with that other 1% the odds are a bit harder to determine as the Gun Master is forced into using his melee attacks. Although the Gun Master is faster than the slinger and shouldn't have trouble staying in melee range and his kick far out-damages the Wilks pistol, so if he is capable of reaching melee range before suffering too much damage, he will still win even while suffering the ultimate handicap.

The Psi-slinger's psi-sword might have something to say about a melee confrontation.

My point is, that you aren't really measuring the deadliest Gunman, if you are measuring the deadliest gun.

Those Wilk's weapons are some of the most common and popular in North America. Chances are, if these guys acquired two guns at random, they'd be the 320 and the 447. Now you might not think it's fair to give a weapon that doesn't bypass a Psi-slinger's greatest defensive ability, but Is it fair to cherrypick weapons so that they do? Especially if the Psi-slinger is an SDC being fighting an MDC being? At least the odds would be even.

Looonatic wrote:The Psi-slinger's psi-sword might have something to say about a melee confrontation.

My point is, that you aren't really measuring the deadliest Gunman, if you are measuring the deadliest gun.

Those Wilk's weapons are some of the most common and popular in North America. Chances are, if these guys acquired two guns at random, they'd be the 320 and the 447. Now you might not think it's fair to give a weapon that doesn't bypass a Psi-slinger's greatest defensive ability, but Is it fair to cherrypick weapons so that they do? Especially if the Psi-slinger is an SDC being fighting an MDC being? At least the odds would be even.

The Psi-Sword takes 15 seconds to summon, the Slinger would probably be dead before he got it out and its damage doesn't compare to a max attributes, max physical skills kick from a Gun Master. Either way, that is a melee fight and I really don't want to have to be considering melee when comparing the deadliest gun men .

The thing about the weapons is that there are literally only 4 or 5 rifles that exits in the megaverse that the Gun Master can't damage the Slinger with, if using any other weapon beyond those 4 or 5, the Master wins. If using one of those 4 or 5, then he has to resort to melee combat and unless he is beginning the battle at max range, he will probably win anyway.
I don't have to cherry pick weapons to bypass the energy resistance of the Slinger, you have to cherry pick weapons that don't. By the vast majority of rifles will inflict more than 30MD when being dual-wielded by a the Gun Master.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:The Psi-slinger's psi-sword might have something to say about a melee confrontation.

My point is, that you aren't really measuring the deadliest Gunman, if you are measuring the deadliest gun.

Those Wilk's weapons are some of the most common and popular in North America. Chances are, if these guys acquired two guns at random, they'd be the 320 and the 447. Now you might not think it's fair to give a weapon that doesn't bypass a Psi-slinger's greatest defensive ability, but Is it fair to cherrypick weapons so that they do? Especially if the Psi-slinger is an SDC being fighting an MDC being? At least the odds would be even.

The Psi-Sword takes 15 seconds to summon, the Slinger would probably be dead before he got it out and its damage doesn't compare to a max attributes, max physical skills kick from a Gun Master. Either way, that is a melee fight and I really don't want to have to be considering melee when comparing the deadliest gun men .

The thing about the weapons is that there are literally only 4 or 5 rifles that exits in the megaverse that the Gun Master can't damage the Slinger with, if using any other weapon beyond those 4 or 5, the Master wins. If using one of those 4 or 5, then he has to resort to melee combat and unless he is beginning the battle at max range, he will probably win anyway.
I don't have to cherry pick weapons to bypass the energy resistance of the Slinger, you have to cherry pick weapons that don't. By the vast majority of rifles will inflict more than 30MD when being dual-wielded by a the Gun Master.

4 or 5, huh?

Coalition models:

C-10, C-12, C-14, CP-40, CV-212

That's 5 of the most common weapons in North AMerica already and are just Coalition gear. Shall I list all the Northern Gun, Triax, Free QUebec and Wilk's weapons common to North AMerica and examine their damage ratings?

JA-11, JA-9, L-20, NG-L5, NG-L6, NG-IP7, TX-30, TX-42, TX-43, TX-45, WR-15, WR-17, WIlk's 547, 557, 567.....

....need I go on?

Truth be told, there are only a handful of weapons in North AMerica that do 1d6x10MD or more. I wasn't the one cherrypicking.

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:The Psi-slinger's psi-sword might have something to say about a melee confrontation.

My point is, that you aren't really measuring the deadliest Gunman, if you are measuring the deadliest gun.

Those Wilk's weapons are some of the most common and popular in North America. Chances are, if these guys acquired two guns at random, they'd be the 320 and the 447. Now you might not think it's fair to give a weapon that doesn't bypass a Psi-slinger's greatest defensive ability, but Is it fair to cherrypick weapons so that they do? Especially if the Psi-slinger is an SDC being fighting an MDC being? At least the odds would be even.

The Psi-Sword takes 15 seconds to summon, the Slinger would probably be dead before he got it out and its damage doesn't compare to a max attributes, max physical skills kick from a Gun Master. Either way, that is a melee fight and I really don't want to have to be considering melee when comparing the deadliest gun men .

The thing about the weapons is that there are literally only 4 or 5 rifles that exits in the megaverse that the Gun Master can't damage the Slinger with, if using any other weapon beyond those 4 or 5, the Master wins. If using one of those 4 or 5, then he has to resort to melee combat and unless he is beginning the battle at max range, he will probably win anyway.
I don't have to cherry pick weapons to bypass the energy resistance of the Slinger, you have to cherry pick weapons that don't. By the vast majority of rifles will inflict more than 30MD when being dual-wielded by a the Gun Master.

4 or 5, huh?

Coalition models:

C-10, C-12, C-14, CP-40, CV-212

That's 5 of the most common weapons in North AMerica already and are just Coalition gear. Shall I list all the Northern Gun, Triax, Free QUebec and Wilk's weapons common to North AMerica and examine their damage ratings?

JA-11, JA-9, L-20, NG-L5, NG-L6, NG-IP7, TX-30, TX-42, TX-43, TX-45, WR-15, WR-17, WIlk's 547, 557, 567.....

....need I go on?

Truth be told, there are only a handful of weapons in North AMerica that do 1d6x10MD or more. I wasn't the one cherrypicking.

Of those only the C-10, C-12, WR-15 and JA-9 have average damage that is below the threshold when Dual'd by a Gun Master. the rest either average higher than 30MD, have a secondary, non energy based attack or an SDC function that the Gun Master can empower with Chi to inflict MD.
And no you need not go on because you literally went through every North American weapon in the Game Master Guide to find those models, you don't need to go on because you are already finished .
I probably exaggerated when I said 4 or 5 weapons (although after going through the GMG it did seem to be only 4 weapons...) but the point is that it is the vast minority of weapons that are incapable of being used by the Gun Master to damage the Psi-Slinger.
Even with one of those weapons in the Master's hands, he isn't impotent.
He can use his explosive kick attack: with maximum PS and the skills I already described, he would have a PS of 50. His kick would inflict 1D4x10+35MD which averages at 60MD per action. The Psi-Slinger needs to dual the very best Naruni Pistols available to meet that damage. If he is stuck at range, he can use his "Create Bullets in Weapon" ability which would inflict (3D6+30)/2 damage per gun averaging to a net 40.5MD average damage to the Psi Slinger. If that Slinger is handicapped with the poorest weapons known to man the same as the Master is, then he is inflicting 2D6MD per action and at a serious disadvantage. Although that would be unfortunate as it would require the Gun Master to lower himself to using his chi abilities to ensure victory.

Part of this discussion has to do with natural OCC abilities. The Psi-Slinger is at a disadvantage because he is unable to take any guns other than handguns and have all of his gun fighting bonuses apply. The Gun Master can. The decision to allow the Gun Master a rifle counterpart to the Psi-Slinger's handgun is a reflection of this natural ability. The advantage of the equipment consistently goes to the Psi-Slinger because even if the attacks are doing beyond 30MD they get halved each time. So there's no reason to get huffy when the Psi-Slinger keeps dieing because he can't have the same equipment. If you even took this battle with a standard equipment only load, the Gun Master ends up with SD rifles, which still puts the Gun Master at an advantage. I'm sorry that in a duel between gunman you only want one side to have his powers played to, but that's not the way it is going to work.

Next the skin graft is basically the character's skin. It is an OCC ability to most OCCs that are part of the Geofront military. It does not constitute as armor because it becomes their skin, literally making them a minor MDC being. The Psi-Slinger cannot have access to this at all because he is not a Geofront military applicable OCC. Again this is part of the natural abilities of an OCC, which is what this whole thread is about. Not "who could build the best gunman with chosen equipment and skill selections" but which OCCs natural abilities and skills allows them to be the strongest. The Gun Master's natural abilities simply put him into such a lead that it is impossible for the Psi-Slinger to catch up. He is not MD, he can only use pistols, he can't dodge bullets, really all he's got going for him are a few psionics and the ability to halve MD energy blasts.

Looonatic wrote:Are you starting to see the point I'm trying to make? You can't compare 'deadliest gunmen' if the weapon matters more than the gunman.

Your point is moot..

Nothing the Slinger can use / abilities/powers wise ..

makes up for the near unlimited ammo and nearly twice the range of the Gun Master's powers / abilities ..

I've already shown this to be 100% true ..

The Gun Master can DODGE .. any shot the slinger takes if .. the Gun Master chooses to allow the Slinger in that range to begin with ..

The Slinger can reduce the amount of damage the Gun Master delivers .. but can not reduce it to a point that it is negligable ..

meaning the Gun master takes zero damage, the Slinger takes cumulative damage which will take its toll an eventually catch up to the slinger.


Gun Master can teleport in any weapon he owns at ranges of up to 10 miles away. His weapons technology is beyond anything the Slinger has ..

And the Gun master's pistol range is almost 3x further then anything the Slinger can bring to bere ..

Now lets take a look at the "reduced" version who is outside of china..

His range is now reduced by half so from 150% range of 1,000ft (was 2,500ft) the Gun Master's pistol is now only able to shoot 1,750ft .. compared to the 900ft(max) range of the Slinger's pistols..

His Ammo is unchanged .. as the Gun Master's pistol has a mini nuke cell which grants him 220 shots in each pistole (2 pistols)

His teleportation of weapons into his hands is reduced from 10 miles .. down to 5 miles ..

And he retains the ability to dodge bullets ..

These factors alone are all a Gun Master needs to hunt down an take out Psi-Slinger's rather trivially ..

Rappanui wrote:(Also note, PSi slinger has the same trick shooting abilities as gunfighter OCC, they can both shoot rifles one handeD)

Again. the ability to teleport into your hand your own weapons . Means vastly more ammo .. which translates into more damage which translates into higher % chance to win the fight..

Ability to dodge the slinger's shots is another aspect you have not touched.

Nor the issue of Ranged fighting .. Which both heavily favor the Gun Master. Why did you not talk about these two (sepereate each is a powerful ability in its own right, combined its almost unstoppable against a slinger)

JuliusCreed wrote:I am adding my vote here for the Gunslinger, but I'm biased because of the last one I made. Standard New West Gunslinger with minor psi powers, specifically Sixth Sense and I think Teleport Object (can't remember the other for certain, it was so long ago) topped off with an interesting addition that the GM allowed me for coming up with a decent backstory. (He was raised by Spirit West Indians as a child and managed to attract the attention of a totem animal, Rattlesnake) In a part of the world where the Initiative roll decided so much, this guy reigned supreme with a total first round Initiative bonus of +17, +11 afterward because the Sixth Sense ability only works on the first round. In most gunfights, he even out-drew Juicers and Psi-Slingers on a regular basis.

I always assumed sixth sense wouldn't work here in a quick draw situation, because the psi knows the attack is coming and sixth sense is only for surprise attacks?

Best answer "it depends."

JuliusCreed wrote:I am adding my vote here for the Gunslinger, but I'm biased because of the last one I made. Standard New West Gunslinger with minor psi powers, specifically Sixth Sense and I think Teleport Object

Looks like to me you simply made a Ghetto version of the Gun Master.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:The Psi-slinger's psi-sword might have something to say about a melee confrontation.

My point is, that you aren't really measuring the deadliest Gunman, if you are measuring the deadliest gun.

Those Wilk's weapons are some of the most common and popular in North America. Chances are, if these guys acquired two guns at random, they'd be the 320 and the 447. Now you might not think it's fair to give a weapon that doesn't bypass a Psi-slinger's greatest defensive ability, but Is it fair to cherrypick weapons so that they do? Especially if the Psi-slinger is an SDC being fighting an MDC being? At least the odds would be even.

The Psi-Sword takes 15 seconds to summon, the Slinger would probably be dead before he got it out and its damage doesn't compare to a max attributes, max physical skills kick from a Gun Master. Either way, that is a melee fight and I really don't want to have to be considering melee when comparing the deadliest gun men .

The thing about the weapons is that there are literally only 4 or 5 rifles that exits in the megaverse that the Gun Master can't damage the Slinger with, if using any other weapon beyond those 4 or 5, the Master wins. If using one of those 4 or 5, then he has to resort to melee combat and unless he is beginning the battle at max range, he will probably win anyway.
I don't have to cherry pick weapons to bypass the energy resistance of the Slinger, you have to cherry pick weapons that don't. By the vast majority of rifles will inflict more than 30MD when being dual-wielded by a the Gun Master.

4 or 5, huh?

Coalition models:

C-10, C-12, C-14, CP-40, CV-212

That's 5 of the most common weapons in North AMerica already and are just Coalition gear. Shall I list all the Northern Gun, Triax, Free QUebec and Wilk's weapons common to North AMerica and examine their damage ratings?

JA-11, JA-9, L-20, NG-L5, NG-L6, NG-IP7, TX-30, TX-42, TX-43, TX-45, WR-15, WR-17, WIlk's 547, 557, 567.....

....need I go on?

Truth be told, there are only a handful of weapons in North AMerica that do 1d6x10MD or more. I wasn't the one cherrypicking.

Of those only the C-10, C-12, WR-15 and JA-9 have average damage that is below the threshold when Dual'd by a Gun Master. the rest either average higher than 30MD, have a secondary, non energy based attack or an SDC function that the Gun Master can empower with Chi to inflict MD.
And no you need not go on because you literally went through every North American weapon in the Game Master Guide to find those models, you don't need to go on because you are already finished .
I probably exaggerated when I said 4 or 5 weapons (although after going through the GMG it did seem to be only 4 weapons...) but the point is that it is the vast minority of weapons that are incapable of being used by the Gun Master to damage the Psi-Slinger.
Even with one of those weapons in the Master's hands, he isn't impotent.
He can use his explosive kick attack: with maximum PS and the skills I already described, he would have a PS of 50. His kick would inflict 1D4x10+35MD which averages at 60MD per action. The Psi-Slinger needs to dual the very best Naruni Pistols available to meet that damage. If he is stuck at range, he can use his "Create Bullets in Weapon" ability which would inflict (3D6+30)/2 damage per gun averaging to a net 40.5MD average damage to the Psi Slinger. If that Slinger is handicapped with the poorest weapons known to man the same as the Master is, then he is inflicting 2D6MD per action and at a serious disadvantage. Although that would be unfortunate as it would require the Gun Master to lower himself to using his chi abilities to ensure victory.

You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

Odd .. after rereading the power ability in question ..

Your opinion here is never directly stated as such .. only that it effects energy based attacks directed at the slinger ..

It neither stats per each blast .. nor does it state per each attack .. ergo neither can be canonly stated as being correct.

In either case, the GM can easily bypass this entire debate by using slugs .. MDC slugs and or explosive rounds quite the same ..

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

Odd .. after rereading the power ability in question ..

Your opinion here is never directly stated as such .. only that it effects energy based attacks directed at the slinger ..

It neither stats per each blast .. nor does it state per each attack .. ergo neither can be canonly stated as being correct.

In either case, the GM can easily bypass this entire debate by using slugs .. MDC slugs and or explosive rounds quite the same ..

The exact wording:

"3. Energy Conversion: Psi-Slingers can transform megadamage
energy beams and blasts directed at them into S.D.C./hit
point blasts! Even the Psi-Slinger isn't sure how he does this. It
could be his unique aura or some unconscious fear response that
reaches out and alters the energy a micro-second before it hits
him. This is an automatic reflex response beyond the Psi-Slinger's
control. Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage."

Dual wielding two energy weapons fired simultaneously might be one attack, but it's still two blasts striking separately.

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

Odd .. after rereading the power ability in question ..

Your opinion here is never directly stated as such .. only that it effects energy based attacks directed at the slinger ..

It neither stats per each blast .. nor does it state per each attack .. ergo neither can be canonly stated as being correct.

In either case, the GM can easily bypass this entire debate by using slugs .. MDC slugs and or explosive rounds quite the same ..

The exact wording:

"3. Energy Conversion: Psi-Slingers can transform megadamage
energy beams and blasts directed at them into S.D.C./hit
point blasts! Even the Psi-Slinger isn't sure how he does this. It
could be his unique aura or some unconscious fear response that
reaches out and alters the energy a micro-second before it hits
him. This is an automatic reflex response beyond the Psi-Slinger's
control. Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage."

Dual wielding two energy weapons fired simultaneously might be one attack, but it's still two blasts striking separately.

Exactly .. and no where does it make the distinction between Duel Energy attacks .. being the same attack ..

meaning no where in there does it say it takes 30md from each blast .. but neither does it say specifically both attacks have to have in exess of 30md .. to land for half md ..

Do you understand what I am saying my friend ?

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

Odd .. after rereading the power ability in question ..

Your opinion here is never directly stated as such .. only that it effects energy based attacks directed at the slinger ..

It neither stats per each blast .. nor does it state per each attack .. ergo neither can be canonly stated as being correct.

In either case, the GM can easily bypass this entire debate by using slugs .. MDC slugs and or explosive rounds quite the same ..

The exact wording:

"3. Energy Conversion: Psi-Slingers can transform megadamage
energy beams and blasts directed at them into S.D.C./hit
point blasts! Even the Psi-Slinger isn't sure how he does this. It
could be his unique aura or some unconscious fear response that
reaches out and alters the energy a micro-second before it hits
him. This is an automatic reflex response beyond the Psi-Slinger's
control. Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage."

Dual wielding two energy weapons fired simultaneously might be one attack, but it's still two blasts striking separately.

Exactly .. and no where does it make the distinction between Duel Energy attacks .. being the same attack ..

meaning no where in there does it say it takes 30md from each blast .. but neither does it say specifically both attacks have to have in exess of 30md .. to land for half md ..

Do you understand what I am saying my friend ?

Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Looonatic wrote:Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

It clearly does not state .. "each" .. as in individual energy blasts .. as opposed to Multiple energy blasts in combination.

You have helped me to clear up this issue as I see it.. a GM who uses two weapons and fires two of them at the same time now in my opinion clearly means its 1 attack / 1 blast ..

And there for is more easily able to get past the reduction power of the Slinger.

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

It clearly does not state .. "each" .. as in individual energy blasts .. as opposed to Multiple energy blasts in combination.

You have helped me to clear up this issue as I see it.. a GM who uses two weapons and fires two of them at the same time now in my opinion clearly means its 1 attack / 1 blast ..

And there for is more easily able to get past the reduction power of the Slinger.

Nonsense. Two blasts from weapons held in each hand don't merge into a single beam like some sort of Death STar superlaser. They are separate beams and strike the target separately.

Looonatic wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Only energy blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more
cannot be affected and will inflict half (M.D.) damage.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

It clearly does not state .. "each" .. as in individual energy blasts .. as opposed to Multiple energy blasts in combination.

You have helped me to clear up this issue as I see it.. a GM who uses two weapons and fires two of them at the same time now in my opinion clearly means its 1 attack / 1 blast ..

And there for is more easily able to get past the reduction power of the Slinger.

Nonsense. Two blasts from weapons held in each hand don't merge into a single beam like some sort of Death STar superlaser. They are separate beams and strike the target separately.

So show me where in the power's description it stats .. "Each" individual Blast ..

Rather then ..

blasts that inflict 30 M.D. or more

One can argue this clearly show's .. 1 attack .. 2 beams = what its defining right there ..

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

I agree that it is very easy to take that interpretation and it is one I would have also taken if not for the RUE.
Mechanically it is no different as to whether or not 100 SDC points of damage breaks the threshold to inflict MDC. In that case, the rules are much more specific and the total damage per action is taken into account for the total. In my game at least, the same ruling would apply.

Giant2005 wrote:

Looonatic wrote:You do realize that a Psi-slinger's 30mdc threshold applies to each blast and not each attack, right?

I agree that it is very easy to take that interpretation and it is one I would have also taken if not for the RUE.
Mechanically it is no different as to whether or not 100 SDC points of damage breaks the threshold to inflict MDC. In that case, the rules are much more specific and the total damage per action is taken into account for the total. In my game at least, the same ruling would apply.

I agree with him but it would SEEM to me that within the rules as they are written you are right. I direct you to W.P. Targeting in R:UE. A character with W.P. Targeting can throw two thrown weapons as a single attack. To me this implies the target of a successful attack would suffer:

[Weapon Damage] + [Weapon Damage] + [P.S. Bonus]

and NOT...

[Weapon Damage] + [P.S. Bonus] + [Weapon Damage] + [P.S. Bonus]

Now, the thing is that LOON is actually going against character and sounding pretty sane on this one though (Mindwerks must have done something right for a change) because obviously the defensive ability is SUPPOSED to represent imperfect A.R. kind of in the same way that a Cyber Knights Cyber Armour does; in that it offers protection against MOST attacks. However rather than using the Cyber Knight system (which was designed to represent location--roll over 16 and you have hit an area without the M.D. cyber armour and now you're dead) this ability is basically "impervious to attacks with less than X power behind them." So I'd rule (and everyone knows I don't arbitrarily throw around house rules) that the attacks did not count as a single attack SPECIFICALLY because you are just firing two weak attacks at once and the mechanic is just "add the damage together" for ease of play. However, if another ability somehow combined two attacks into a single larger attack or even if the gunman figured it out and started making Called Shots (12 or higher) to strike the exact same location to intentionally inflict greater damage than I'd allow them to bypass this defense as is written within the rules.

But hey... that's just me. I like making my players work for things and figure things out so I can give them Experience points awards for coming up with good ideas and innovative uses of their abilities.

Well, right or wrong, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this train of thought.

Looonatic wrote:Well, right or wrong, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this train of thought.

And thats the buety of having multiple people with multiple views on things.

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well, right or wrong, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this train of thought.

And thats the buety of having multiple people with multiple views on things.

Also with multiple spellings of beauty.

If you have trouble remembering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPphDSc6ZEE