Stone to Flesh Question

[Killer Cyborg]

Since the OED seems to have a definition that restricts the term to muscle and fat in animals and humans, then includes parts of fruit as an example/subset, I think that common sense would be discarding the OED as a source, at least for this conversation.

[Goliath Strongarm]

I can see a plausible answer being that while the spell can RETURN bone, blood, etc, that when creating directly from "raw" stone that it only creates the "meaty" part.

PERSONALLY I think I'm going with (as a house rule/GM declaration)
*mystery meat
*85% muscle, 15% fat.
*no skin or bone, but will include blood vessels (but not the blood)
*high value stone can increase the quality of meat

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see a plausible answer being that while the spell can RETURN bone, blood, etc, that when creating directly from "raw" stone that it only creates the "meaty" part.

I don't see any reason for it working that way, though.
The simplest explanation that fits the spell is that the spell works the same way in both cases, instead of inexplicably switching from one way to the other.
Note that the spell used in conjunction with Breath of Life and a golem (as pointed out by DM, iirc) creates "a living, zombie-like creature."
NOT "a living, zombie-like creature that falls instantly to the ground in a boneless heap."


So we can safely assume that it can create bones from stones that never were bones in the first place.

I'd just assume that in the absence of any kind of "blueprint" for the living creature in question, the result would be a random mess of bone, blood, organs, and the other stuff of living beings.

[Damian Magecraft]

I can see a plausible answer being that while the spell can RETURN bone, blood, etc, that when creating directly from "raw" stone that it only creates the "meaty" part.

I don't see any reason for it working that way, though.
The simplest explanation that fits the spell is that the spell works the same way in both cases, instead of inexplicably switching from one way to the other.
Note that the spell used in conjunction with Breath of Life and a golem (as pointed out by DM, iirc) creates "a living, zombie-like creature."
NOT "a living, zombie-like creature that falls instantly to the ground in a boneless heap."


So we can safely assume that it can create bones from stones that never were bones in the first place.

I'd just assume that in the absence of any kind of "blueprint" for the living creature in question, the result would be a random mess of bone, blood, organs, and the other stuff of living beings.

just another quick note on the spell combos...
it also states that it can be used to create a living double/imposter.
which makes one wonder what happens when its combined with newer spells like "Friend in the head"?

[Killer Cyborg]

Not familiar with that one.

[Goliath Strongarm]

KC- since none of the spells go into extreme detail, a GM could argue various densitoes in the stone, along with various impurities are how the spell determines what becomes what.

GM handwaving with a semi-plausible explanation. If the player keeps arguing, they can find out what it feels like to be the one turned to stone.

[Damian Magecraft]

Not familiar with that one.

From TtGD...
This spell creates a magical intelligence. An enchantment with its own I.Q. and personality which is placed in the head of the target subject.
If the victim makes a saving throw, then the intelligence cannot get into his/her mind, but instead wanders free; perhaps as a "ghost," or perhaps entering a more vulnerable person such as a drug addict, mental patient, the empty physical body of an Astral Traveler, or inhabiting the head of an animal.

the underlined got me thinking if the empty body of an astral traveler why not a pre-made one with no former occupant?

[Killer Cyborg]

KC- since none of the spells go into extreme detail, a GM could argue various densitoes in the stone, along with various impurities are how the spell determines what becomes what.

Agreed; that is certainly possible.

[Damian Magecraft]

Related Question:
Petrification...
What kind of stone?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Related Question:
Petrification...
What kind of stone?

First, I hate you. In a good way though. I can't believe you actually posted this.....

Here's WHY he posted it..... (besides me double dog daring him...)

The question was brought up in chat.. stone to flesh does 50 pounds of stone per level.. but... when the person was petrified, turned to stone, their density changed, and therefore their weight changed...

But, depending on what KIND of stone would depend on what their new weight is... which could significantly increase the difficulty of turning them back to flesh. Alum? Or the slightly denser gypsum? Or the MUCH denser Cinnabar?

See where this goes? Because that person who weighed 220 pounds with all that armor and weaponry now weighs.....?

[Grug]

This thread reminds me of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o37cE82qbmw.

[Killer Cyborg]

Related Question:
Petrification...
What kind of stone?

First, I hate you. In a good way though. I can't believe you actually posted this.....

Here's WHY he posted it..... (besides me double dog daring him...)

The question was brought up in chat.. stone to flesh does 50 pounds of stone per level.. but... when the person was petrified, turned to stone, their density changed, and therefore their weight changed...

But, depending on what KIND of stone would depend on what their new weight is... which could significantly increase the difficulty of turning them back to flesh. Alum? Or the slightly denser gypsum? Or the MUCH denser Cinnabar?

See where this goes? Because that person who weighed 220 pounds with all that armor and weaponry now weighs.....?

Well, they may still weigh the same amount... only now they're bigger or smaller.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Well, they may still weigh the same amount... only now they're bigger or smaller.

Seriously KC? So now it's a shrinking spell? Which would make "stone to flesh" an enlarging spell.... (and we didn't get into the density/weight issue when talking about meat making...). So, if petrification uses gypsum (for an example)

For reference, fresh water is 1000 KG/ Cu. M

Solid Gypsum has a density of about 2787 KG per cubic meter.

A human is roughly 947 KG per cubic meter (with lungfuls of air, and yes, can vary a lot! I know. It's an "average". No, I didn't use wikipedia, I went to multiple other sources, including some physics and medical ones). Let's assume no gear. Either the just the person is turned to stone, and the statue wears the equipment, or say the person was naked at the time.. whatever. Trying to keep it simple...

Let someone else sit there and figure out the exact measurements, but roughly 3 times the density.. so to keep the same weight, you're shrinking that person down to about 1/3 size. **

**EDIT: Actually, if I remember all the math and stuff right, wouldn't they go to like 1/9 the size, to keep the same weight? GAH... too long ago.

So instead of a bunch of human and elf statues, a basilisks lair would be surrounded by a crapload of gnome statues, is that it?

[Prysus]

Related Question:
Petrification...
What kind of stone?

Greetings and Salutations. As Goliath mentioned, this came up in the chats and I was present for it. My first response was to make jokes (included in spoilers for those who are curious).

Spoiler:

Player: "What kind of stone?"
GM: "What?"
Player: "Well, depending on the type of stone it'll depend on the weight and whether or not I can undo it with Stone to Flesh, which has a weight limit."
GM: "Oh geez, you're serious."
Player: "Come on. I mean is it metamorphic, igneous, sedimentary?"
GM: "It's not important. The spell will work, okay?"
Player: "Why can't you answer a simple question?"
GM: "You want me to answer the question? Okay, fine. It's the type of stone that breaks *****! A giant comes through the opening in the tunnel swinging a massive club, smashing the statue. Debris and dust fly everywhere. You'll be picking bits of your friend out of your hair for weeks ... if you live. He seems really mad that you're in his cave. Roll initiative."
Player: "His cave? I thought this was the cave of the Gorgon we just killed."
GM: "He looks over at his new headless girlfriend. He's even angrier. Oh yeah ... roll Horror Factor. If you fail, better hope you can survive a direct hit from the giant's club."

Despite all that, I now think I found some interesting information. There are two main reasons that I can think of why this would ever be important in a game (at least in a game mechanics point of view).

1: The primary reason is determining weight for casting Stone to Flesh on the Petrified individual. But this is a non-factor. What the Stone to Flesh spell tells you is that it can turn Stone to Flesh and restore people who've been petrified. Maybe that's a continuation of thoughts? Read the invocation in PF2 main book on page 206. It mentions the weight limitation. Then, in a separate line and thought, it mentions how it can also restore people. This implies it's two separate abilities, and the part that restores people has no weight limit, it just does it! One spell, two different uses. So it's not important for restoration purposes.

2: If you're planning to move your stoned friend (no pun intended). To lift/move the individual, you need to know the weight. This time it's a bit trickier, because there's no obvious answer. However, I did get to thinking. What we do know is that Petrification and Stone to Flesh are both Warlock spells. In fact, they have a lot of spells that involve stone. So it might stand to reason that these spells have some connection. Now most of these spells don't give us very hard numbers, but one does: Wall of Stone.

We have the measurements (8x8x4 feet/2.4x2.4x1.2 m), and we have how much it takes to lift it (a P.S. of 60). Now we know it's lift and not carry because it's just moving it enough for someone to crawl out from underneath it. That means the Wall of Stone weighs approximately 2400 pounds! So, if you can figure out the exact measurements of the person, you might be able to figure out an appropriate conversion rate. I'm too lazy to do the rest though. So hopefully that's enough to get you started.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[The Beast]

The question was brought up in chat.. stone to flesh does 50 pounds of stone per level.. but... when the person was petrified, turned to stone, their density changed, and therefore their weight changed...

But, depending on what KIND of stone would depend on what their new weight is... which could significantly increase the difficulty of turning them back to flesh. Alum? Or the slightly denser gypsum? Or the MUCH denser Cinnabar?

See where this goes? Because that person who weighed 220 pounds with all that armor and weaponry now weighs.....?

The weight limit of the spell doesn't become a factor when returning a person to normal after they've been turned to stone.

[Goliath Strongarm]

2: If you're planning to move your stoned friend (no pun intended). To lift/move the individual, you need to know the weight. This time it's a bit trickier, because there's no obvious answer. However, I did get to thinking. What we do know is that Petrification and Stone to Flesh are both Warlock spells. In fact, they have a lot of spells that involve stone. So it might stand to reason that these spells have some connection. Now most of these spells don't give us very hard numbers, but one does: Wall of Stone.

We have the measurements (8x8x4 feet/2.4x2.4x1.2 m), and we have how much it takes to lift it (a P.S. of 60). Now we know it's lift and not carry because it's just moving it enough for someone to crawl out from underneath it. That means the Wall of Stone weighs approximately 2400 pounds! So, if you can figure out the exact measurements of the person, you might be able to figure out an appropriate conversion rate. I'm too lazy to do the rest though. So hopefully that's enough to get you started.
.[/justify]

Keep in mind, PURE water is 1000 kilograms per cubic meter...

Now, just for a clue...

Based on 2400 pounds, we're looking at a density of roughly 150 KG/cu m. Freshly fallen snow is about 160. Pretty damn weak stone.

Now, granted, the 2400 number is based upon lifting it "just enough for someone to crawl out". So what if we TRIPLE the weight? Sound fair?

We're looking at about 450 kg/cu m. Roasted Coffee Beans are about 432. Powdered milk is 449.

Cardboard is 689.

I seriously cannot find a stone that has that low of a density... maybe I'm just missing it. Pumice comes in around 641. And IT FLOATS!

Next time I have a wall of stone in front of me, I'm just going to shove through it...