Guns in Melee

[flatline]

I have already performed this test. More than once, in fact.

I can empty my Glock 17 in the same amount of time (17 shots in about 15 seconds) and get the same 3-4 inch group whether I'm shooting at the target's "center of mass", head, shoulder, or whatever corner of the target I decide to use for my sight picture.

I even keep the same attack rate when I call each shot differently (head, then chest, then left shoulder, then right shoulder, etc until I empty the magazine).

If I take more careful aim, my group gets smaller (2-3 inches) and it takes me almost a minute to empty the magazine. Again, it makes no difference if I'm targeting the "center of mass", head, shoulder, or corner.

Conclusions:
My attack rate remains slightly more than one shot per second whether I'm shooting at the center of mass or "calling" my shots. Taking extra time to more carefully aim does, unsurprisingly, reduce my attack rate to slightly less than 1 shot every 3 seconds.

I am by no means an accomplished shooter, but my test results clearly and repeatedly contradict RUE's called shot rule.

What were the results of your own testing?

--flatline

That is pretty damn good even for 15 feet. I didn't realize you were talking about ranges that short, my mistake. I now understand your complaint. Though a moving target would still still cause the delays I was talking about above even at 15'. I meant ranges of about 50' or greater with a pistol. I can't give you the specifics as the last time I was at the range was about 5 months ago, but I know I fired a .45 pretty quick and could still hit the target regularly, but If I wanted to have even a chance to hit something specific on the target I had to slow down. And to ensure I hit the target where I wanted to I had to slow down even more.

If you are having gun fights at a 15' range there must be a lot of armor replacement going on. If the rule really bugs you re gun fights at that close a range I would just ask the GM for a house rule if I were you. I don't think I've had a GM use the called shot rule when the taget was static and I was at point blank range, and 15' is pretty much point blank.

BTW: I grew up shooting and I received the expert marksman medal when I was in the military and i'm pretty sure i couldn't fire off 17 rounds in 15 seconds and get them all in 3" grouping, so very nice!!

I'm being generous to myself when I say a 3-4" grouping. Of the 17 shots, some will stray from the group and I'm ignoring them as outliers when I describe the group size.

The book doesn't explicitly address this, but I've always ruled that you can't call a shot if you can't see what you're calling and it may take a bit of time to find your target when you're shooting at longer ranges. From the rules perspective, I would consider this to be an "aimed called" shot rather than just a "called" shot.

--flatline

[Jefffar]

Hello all, I apologize if this has been dealt with elsewhere on the forum but this is my first post. I was wondering if any rules for fighting with ranged weapons in melee have been posted for the Rifts setting. It seems to me that there is little reason to include equipment such as the bayonet if a man wielding a plasma cannon has the same combat modifiers as a man with a knife. I see in the Rifts Ultimate Edition core rulebook that a Backflip may be used to escape/exit a melee, but if you can always shoot a gun why would anyone bother unless they were entangled or otherwise held still? Aside from the obvious "because your opponent only has a knife" answer of course. Or in a more extreme example, does a City Rate who against all odds prowls up to a Glitterboy to cut his ammunition feed with a vibro sabre gain NO advantages in the rules as written against being splattered by a Boomgun? The RUE corebook seems to suggest the GM having an NPC in a "superior" position such as a footman vs. a robot vehicle or supernatural creature use a lessened form of attack such as a UAR-1 Enforcer performing a Stomp attack against a goblin with a spear instead of bothering to bend over and fire a railgun burst. But outside of saving ammo and dramatic effect there is no reason not to overkill by shooting your main guns even while engaged in frantic melee.

I would like to see an honest reason to fear a Juicer in hand to hand more than one at range, or for a CS Glitterboy Killer to actually defeat a Glitterboy once within range to use his six foot blades. Yes being swarmed by sword wielding Xitictics or pounced upon by a pair of demon wolves should be something a player character can actually live through if they take enough risks and are smart enough to get away; with the old fashioned "blasting your way out" being a viable option to end or escape from most fights. But doesn't it makes sense in a bar fight for the man with a switch blade to have a slight advantage over the man with a sniper rifle if they are standing literally toe to toe?

I recall a combat example in the old TMNT and other Strangness main rule book between a combatant with a sword and another with a pistol. If you could find that you might get a clearer sense on how the rules for melee combat with a gun is supposed to work.

Recon had an interesting alternate take on melee with a gun. One of its concepts was that against a foe close enough to strike blows a gun could not be used because you would be too busy trying to struggling for control over the weapon. You had to force a separation before you got to pull the trigger.

[Killer Cyborg]

Flatline is also ignoring the fact that shooting as fast as possible, accurate or otherwise, is typically called performing a "Burst Shot" or "Burst Attack", "Three Round Burst", or "Spray."

Since he's using a semi-automatic firearm (a Glock 17) - no, he's not.

RUE 328
Semi-automatic pistols can fire bursts in Rifts, even with the new rules.

Edit:
I correct myself: According to the new rules, "Revolvers are the classic cylinder-based 'six-shooter.' Pistols are 'automatic' weapons which means the gun keeps firing while the trigger is depressed and doesn't stop until the trigger is released or the ammunition is spent."

So by RUE rules, that Glock 17 would be a fully automatic weapon for some reason.

So I'll assume that Akashic Soldier was using the earlier, saner, rules from p. 34 of the RMG, and pages 8-9 of CB1, where it's made very clear that such rapid firing of a semi-automatic weapon IS a burst by Rifts standards.
Or, at least, it was, and it should be still.

[flatline]

Flatline is also ignoring the fact that shooting as fast as possible, accurate or otherwise, is typically called performing a "Burst Shot" or "Burst Attack", "Three Round Burst", or "Spray."

Since he's using a semi-automatic firearm (a Glock 17) - no, he's not.

RUE 328
Semi-automatic pistols can fire bursts in Rifts, even with the new rules.

Edit:
I correct myself: According to the new rules, "Revolvers are the classic cylinder-based 'six-shooter.' Pistols are 'automatic' weapons which means the gun keeps firing while the trigger is depressed and doesn't stop until the trigger is released or the ammunition is spent."

So by RUE rules, that Glock 17 would be a fully automatic weapon for some reason.

So I'll assume that Akashic Soldier was using the earlier, saner, rules from p. 34 of the RMG, and pages 8-9 of CB1, where it's made very clear that such rapid firing of a semi-automatic weapon IS a burst by Rifts standards.
Or, at least, it was, and it should be still.

Woohoo! RUE has turned my Glock 17 into a Glock 18! Guess I'd better order me some larger magazines

Actually, for as much fun as it is to shoot a Glock 18, the thought of carrying a fully automatic pistol is terrifying to me.

--flatline

[flatline]

/semi off topic...

Mine's a Glock 22. The 18 is full auto? Hmmmm.

I think the Glock 18 is the only full auto capable Glock model and it's only available to the government and law enforcement. Some ranges will have one for rent, so if you'd like to know what it feels like to empty a 33-rnd mag in about 1.5 seconds, call around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE_cz56HSRM

If you watch the video, you'll be amazed at how well they keep the gun on target whilst emptying the mag.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

And here I was hoping this was a thread about gun-kata in Rifts.

For the record, it anyone has come up with a "Gun Kata" type thing, I'd really like to see it. I've thought about it myself. It could make a cool optional Hand to Hand skill, or even be centered around an OCC. Unfortunately I'm horrible with numbers.

The Chinese Gun-Master uses Gun Kata

See also Mystic China's Triad Assassin Training form.