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ShadowLogan wrote:IINM the stock Horizon Bunkers are to small to carry a RDF Monster (or even the REF version) based on the 1E RPG's stated size for the bunkers (~10m tall x ~10m wide), so either they have their own specialized bunkers or they are carried exposed (this approach can also be used for the Garfish).

Y'know, I'm not aware of any official source that actually gives internal dimensions for the Horizont's modules... but from the art, a TLEAD (Beta) fits in the rear portion of one with its wings folded. Probably closer to 7 or 8 meters. 'course, since the UEEF doesn't use the Sentinels destroids (or ANY destroids, really) in the official continuity, it's pretty much immaterial. You could make a Southern Cross Army mecha or two fit either laying down or kneeling, I'd wager...

ShadowLogan wrote:Door size is an issue, but are we sure there aren't other "doors" they can use to move it outside (like down into the hangar modules)?

There are no large cargo doors in evidence on any version of the ship... and we know the bays have to be in the front half, because the official line in both RT and the OSM is that the back half is reserved for the ship's propulsion and power systems.

ShadowLogan wrote:Lets also remember that w/n canon there are 3 separate versions of the Garfish that we can discern: Old Timer/Standard, Science Vessel (TSC), and presumably the modified ones with the "maw" effect for the SyncroCannon BFG seen at SSL (TSC).

So, really, only two... because the latter two are strongly implied to be modifications of the former, which ceased to exist after the retrofit.

ShadowLogan wrote:That opens up the possibility of specially/specifically configured Garfish for the task, so I am not going to dispute that the old timers version's ability, but given we have at least 3 versions by the time of TSC I don't think its possible to rule out a variant for the task completely. [...]

While it is technically possible that such a thing could be done, the notion isn't particularly plausible in light of the Garfish-class having no hatch of sufficient dimensions to permit the (dis)embarkation of combat mecha larger than a Silverback or Cyclone... and in that the UEEF doesn't appear to be interested in populating its forces with heavy ground combat units.

ShadowLogan wrote:Plus in the comics (Love & War #1) they are shown to be used to deploy/retrieve VHT-2s from the hangar modules, suggesting that the hangar modules are really where ground troops would be carried (probably at the cost of air power).

True, though those aren't exactly what you'd call roomy either... suited to an Alpha or a hovertank, but not much else.

Pretty much any way you shake it, the Garfish we know doesn't (can't) carry anything like a Destroid.

ShadowLogan wrote:The OSM aspect really doesn't necessarily apply to RT given how much they cherry pick form the OSM material and production errors (making some "real" and ignoring others).

Not quite true, as the OSM continues to form the foundation of Robotech's official stats and its influence has only increased in the years since the reboot.

(Plus it's the default go-to position for Harmony Gold's staff to reconcile contradictions in the animation and printed materials... with virtually all of the canonized production errors being ones that conveniently coincide with OSM aspects of the other shows, or with a OSM precedent behind them.)

Seto wrote:Y'know, I'm not aware of any official source that actually gives internal dimensions for the Horizont's modules... but from the art, a TLEAD (Beta) fits in the rear portion of one with its wings folded. Probably closer to 7 or 8 meters. 'course, since the UEEF doesn't use the Sentinels destroids (or ANY destroids, really) in the official continuity, it's pretty much immaterial. You could make a Southern Cross Army mecha or two fit either laying down or kneeling, I'd wager...

Actually the size listed is for the external dimension of the bunker in the Sentinels book, not the internal at least that's how I read the entry. But if you can't get it to fit based on the overall size, the interior dimensions won't matter (based on the Beta's Battloid mode's 8.5m width as a dirty estimate of the folded wings width in F/G mode, the bunker has to be wider than that).

Actually we know the UEEF has something akin to destroids, in L&W we have the Tiger and in LLA-rt version we have the Mac3 being depicted. If we treat your TLEAD OSM shot as valid, any ASC mecha (except the AGAC) in the 2E RPG should fit standing up in battloid configuration, the tallest is ~22ft, the Beta is listed as 20ft, and IIRC the Beta has wiggle room (not to mention the F mode height may not take into account the landing gear being deployed).

Seto wrote:There are no large cargo doors in evidence on any version of the ship...

I'm not convinced of that. If they can access the hangar bays with a lift from the hold, they could take over sized stuff out that way. Such a lift may not be visible due to redecorations done by the old timers to turn it into a living space. Even if they can't, the depicted hatch should allow for disassembled mecha to transported out.

I would also add that the exit seen on the old timers ship may not be fully open. Other ships are depicted with markings that could indicate a over/under type hatchway could be present, one of which is the entrance the old timers use IINM, so it is possible that the second "door" just is not open.

Seto wrote:So, really, only two... because the latter two are strongly implied to be modifications of the former, which ceased to exist after the retrofit.

Modifications yes, but if they modified the Garfish at least twice for new roles then it is plausible that the could have other modified versions we don't know about.

Seto wrote:While it is technically possible that such a thing could be done, the notion isn't particularly plausible in light of the Garfish-class having no hatch of sufficient dimensions to permit the (dis)embarkation of combat mecha larger than a Silverback or Cyclone... and in that the UEEF doesn't appear to be interested in populating its forces with heavy ground combat units.

Only if we discount some type of access to the hangers or the ability to make the known hatchway larger. And only if we need the mecha to be combat ready upon landing. If one is using the Garfish to transport to a base, instead of a fire zone, then transport requirements will be different. One of the requirements in the RAH-66 Commanche program (now canceled) was a faster re-assembly time after being transported by a Cargo plane. So the notion that the transported mecha must be combat ready upon landing IS some what questionable.

And I do agree the UEEF really isn't depicted as having heavy ground units. But we are also only looking at them in a specific time frame and snap shots. Evidence suggests the Garfish has seen at minimum nearly 15years in terms of service (add in a few more for development). Off hand I don't think we see how the Condor Battloids are transported/deployed in the space battle for Lancer's unit, but we know they are present and supposed to be assisting the Conbats, and they are in scale for RDF mecha (much like the Beta).

Seto wrote:True, though those aren't exactly what you'd call roomy either... suited to an Alpha or a hovertank, but not much else.

Pretty much any way you shake it, the Garfish we know doesn't (can't) carry anything like a Destroid.

Personally I'm inclined to think the Destroids are a dead concept that did not survive into the 2020s in anything beyond a token effort (like the MAC3/Tiger). Their roles being taken over by VHTs, battloids, and more conventional platforms.

The bays are roomy, they look to be about x2 the height of an Alpha F-mode (4.6m), though their overall shape makes width difficult to determine (the Alpha's F mode wings do have clearance for the 8.2m wingspan). So that gives them a lot of room to work with actually in terms of height and width, and no where is it written that the UEEF must have Destroids or other heavy combat mecha in the physical size of the UEDF-RDF era. That would allow one to work with smaller designs (like the Sentinel Destroids) or possibly even non-traditional humanoid designs (little precedent in RT for this option really I admit unless one looks at the old Defenders Model line).

Seto wrote:(Plus it's the default go-to position for Harmony Gold's staff to reconcile contradictions in the animation and printed materials... with virtually all of the canonized production errors being ones that conveniently coincide with OSM aspects of the other shows, or with a OSM precedent behind them.)

But not all of them line up as this shows. The animation/story is supposed to have precedent.

if you look at the entrace they're using.. i'm not sure it's one that was originally built into the ship.
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg
http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

i suspect the large "waist" bit above the launch bays is the actual doors to the internal bay.. and the old timers just cut a more human sized hole to use for easier entry.

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually we know the UEEF has something akin to destroids, in L&W we have the Tiger and in LLA-rt version we have the Mac3 being depicted.

Just a point of order, that thing in LLA does not match the configuration of a Sentinels destroid... and there's no evidence that the unit was ever part of the UEEF inventory (it was a UEDF asset, remember?).

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm not convinced of that. If they can access the hangar bays with a lift from the hold, they could take over sized stuff out that way.

But, per the description of the ship in official Robotech material, the hangar complex is a separate module and not a part of the actual ship... plus with the internal spaces not being set up to accommodate mecha, there's no (officially precedented) reason for the Garfish-class to have such a lift.

ShadowLogan wrote:Such a lift may not be visible due to redecorations done by the old timers to turn it into a living space. Even if they can't, the depicted hatch should allow for disassembled mecha to transported out.

Looked at from a more practical, evidence-driven view, the absence of an elevator indicates... the absence of an elevator. There wouldn't be one in the animation, because in the animation (as in the RT stat) the hangar module is essentially separate from the body of the ship.

ShadowLogan wrote:Only if we discount some type of access to the hangers or the ability to make the known hatchway larger. [...]

But I'm not counting matters that require something that isn't present in the show or the official material. We could what-if all day long, but if it's not there, what's the point?

ShadowLogan wrote:And only if we need the mecha to be combat ready upon landing. If one is using the Garfish to transport to a base, instead of a fire zone, then transport requirements will be different. One of the requirements in the RAH-66 Commanche program (now canceled) was a faster re-assembly time after being transported by a Cargo plane. So the notion that the transported mecha must be combat ready upon landing IS some what questionable.

At the risk of possibly sounding rude, the mecha being ready on landing is pretty much the point... practically every ship in the UEEF fleet is, in one fashion or another, little more than a troop transport meant to deliver combat-ready troops and supplies to an active battle zone, usually one on a planetary surface. Transporting mecha without the ability to actually disembark them for combat isn't exactly a good use of a front-line warship. That's something more along the lines of what'd get assigned to the transport squadrons of the UEEF's rear echelons, who have much larger ships better suited to both large numbers of mecha AND cargo shuttles to deliver mecha and mecha parts to non-combat areas.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote:(Plus it's the default go-to position for Harmony Gold's staff to reconcile contradictions in the animation and printed materials... with virtually all of the canonized production errors being ones that conveniently coincide with OSM aspects of the other shows, or with a OSM precedent behind them.)

But not all of them line up as this shows. The animation/story is supposed to have precedent.

In theory, but in practice the people in charge of Robotech sensibly defer to the intentions of the original creators most of the time when they're confronted with odd contradictions and inconsistencies.

glitterboy2098 wrote:if you look at the entrace they're using.. i'm not sure it's one that was originally built into the ship.

Considering it was just four men, I doubt they had the manpower or the tools necessary to saw a new hatch into the ship... I doubt garden-variety blowtorches would do much to a ship designed to withstand reentry heat.


[quote="glitterboy2098"]i suspect the large "waist" bit above the launch bays is the actual doors to the internal bay.. and the old timers just cut a more human sized hole to use for easier entry.
Officially, the blocky bit at the waist is nothing more than the modular docking connector.

Seto wrote:Just a point of order, that thing in LLA does not match the configuration of a Sentinels destroid... and there's no evidence that the unit was ever part of the UEEF inventory (it was a UEDF asset, remember?).

I haven't picked up LLA (even with Amazon's 50% pricecut). I'm going off of other people's assement, so I'm not going to dispute if it is truely the MAC3 or an animated Tiger or something else. However we don't know how much overlap there is between the UEDF-ASC and the UEEF inventories in that period. And we know the UEEF was present for the Invid Invasion (Old Timers), so it is possible the mecha is in use by the UEEF since the UEDF-ASC isn't shown to use anything like it in wide angle shots (narrow close up only shot may be another matter).

Seto wrote:But, per the description of the ship in official Robotech material, the hangar complex is a separate module and not a part of the actual ship... plus with the internal spaces not being set up to accommodate mecha, there's no (officially precedented) reason for the Garfish-class to have such a lift.

Yes the Hangars are modular, but unless those Alpha pilots and their technicians all live in those modules, along with parts and supplies, there would have to be ways to traverse between sections. Given the need to traverse different flight/levels, a lift system would make the most sense. Unless of course the Garfish comes equipped with the rapid transit system we see in use by the Masters on the Cityship or teleporters (which given Louie's statement in TSC seems unlikely), neither of which I think is going on.

There really isn't a reason that the Garfish can't be configured to carry mecha either in the cargo hold. Getting them in/out is obviously an issue from your POV, but it is highly questionable if the Garfish has only one access point outside the hangars. The old timers would have no reason to have all the access points open after all, and probably more reasons to limit access.

Seto wrote:At the risk of possibly sounding rude, the mecha being ready on landing is pretty much the point... practically every ship in the UEEF fleet is, in one fashion or another, little more than a troop transport meant to deliver combat-ready troops and supplies to an active battle zone, usually one on a planetary surface. Transporting mecha without the ability to actually disembark them for combat isn't exactly a good use of a front-line warship. That's something more along the lines of what'd get assigned to the transport squadrons of the UEEF's rear echelons, who have much larger ships better suited to both large numbers of mecha AND cargo shuttles to deliver mecha and mecha parts to non-combat areas.

As I said requirements for transport can be different depending on when/where the Garfish is supposed to transport the heavy mecha. It is highly pessemistic to assume the Garfish is always being used to transport materials/troops to an active battle zone. And I do agree it wouldn't make sense to transport a disasembled mecha into an active combat zone, but it also wouldn't make sense to assume that the Garfish is always transporting to an active combat zone either.

Seto wrote:Considering it was just four men, I doubt they had the manpower or the tools necessary to saw a new hatch into the ship... I doubt garden-variety blowtorches would do much to a ship designed to withstand reentry heat.

I agree it is unlikely to be a new hatch. But it also seems unlikely it would be the only standard hatch. Plus it appears to use STEPS instead of a RAMP, which I would think would limit who/what can use it.

Though if they wanted to make a new one I suspect it would be possible.

Seto wrote:Officially, the blocky bit at the waist is nothing more than the modular docking connector.

It is highly unlikely that the entire bit is used as a docking connector though.

ShadowLogan wrote:I haven't picked up LLA (even with Amazon's 50% pricecut). I'm going off of other people's assement, so I'm not going to dispute if it is truely the MAC3 or an animated Tiger or something else.

I haven't bought it either, but I have seen it... and it doesn't conform to any known pattern from Robotech's ill-fated original material or MOSPEADA's OSM. (If the theory that Harmony Gold doesn't own the Sentinels mechanical designs free and clear is true, that may be a non-infringing version of the Sentinels Monster.)

ShadowLogan wrote:However we don't know how much overlap there is between the UEDF-ASC and the UEEF inventories in that period.

Prior to Harmony Gold rebooting the Robotech continuity and jettisoning all the novels, comics, and the RPG, Robotech's setting made that a "Depends on the author" moment. For legal reasons, the Sentinels animation stuck the UEEF with designs from MOSPEADA and the ersatz-destroids. The comics, which were classified differently, showed SIGNIFICANT overlap in the inventories (to the extent that the scenes redone for Prelude #1 originally showed VF-1s and Spartas units fighting in Tiresia, not a collection of Cyclones and Alphas).

Currently, the official Robotech setting and the RPG both stick with "virtually none" as their answer to the question, citing the independent development of new combat mecha for the UEDF because their leadership was upset that the UEEF was getting all the best toys.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes the Hangars are modular, but unless those Alpha pilots and their technicians all live in those modules, along with parts and supplies, there would have to be ways to traverse between sections.

If the Horizont is any indication, there are probably ladders... but not much else.

ShadowLogan wrote:There really isn't a reason that the Garfish can't be configured to carry mecha either in the cargo hold. Getting them in/out is obviously an issue from your POV, but it is highly questionable if the Garfish has only one access point outside the hangars.

Actually, I'd call the fact that the UEEF doesn't use anything big enough to NEED being carried inside the cargo hold of a Garfish a pretty sound reason for not having the capability... and there is, of course, the slight fact that cargo duty belongs to other craft in the UEEF inventory (as it did in the OSM). They carry small supplies, and leave lugging vehicles around to the Horizonts, which are better suited to it (and can land much more gracefully).

ShadowLogan wrote:As I said requirements for transport can be different depending on when/where the Garfish is supposed to transport the heavy mecha. It is highly pessemistic to assume the Garfish is always being used to transport materials/troops to an active battle zone.

Pessimistic, but entirely consistent with their presentation in the original MOSPEADA and Robotech. The UEEF fleet isn't operating away from bases for a long period of time the way, say, an emigrant fleet in Macross might. They leave port to go directly into battle, or at best, stay on patrol practically within eyeshot of their home port. This is consistent with how the ships of the UEEF are designed... they don't even have proper concessions to recover the aircraft they're launching. They aren't carriers or frigates, they're assault ships. Troop landers designed to move the maximum number of troops to the enemy.

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree it is unlikely to be a new hatch. But it also seems unlikely it would be the only standard hatch. Plus it appears to use STEPS instead of a RAMP, which I would think would limit who/what can use it.

If the ship's not intended for use as a cargo hauler, and is only meant to carry modest and easily portable cargo like boxes of rifles and ammunition for small arms, concessions to heavy cargo aren't necessary.

ShadowLogan wrote:It is highly unlikely that the entire bit is used as a docking connector though.

You'd need pretty substantial structural reinforcement to strap extra, external modules beneath the ship and expect them to stay put during the kind of acceleration we've seen the ships are capable of. It's possible the section also includes life support and power tap connections for the docking modules as well.

Seto wrote:If the Horizont is any indication, there are probably ladders... but not much else.

So they are going to move MM-60 compatible missiles from internal stores up and down ladders? For the stated 15 Alphas no less?

They are going to move potential injured pilots via ladders from the Alpha bay?

Seto wrote:Actually, I'd call the fact that the UEEF doesn't use anything big enough to NEED being carried inside the cargo hold of a Garfish a pretty sound reason for not having the capability... and there is, of course, the slight fact that cargo duty belongs to other craft in the UEEF inventory (as it did in the OSM). They carry small supplies, and leave lugging vehicles around to the Horizonts, which are better suited to it (and can land much more gracefully).

Actually the UEEF does have items big enough during the life span of the Garfish design, some of which can't use the Alpha Hangars. And if you want to maximize force projection on a Garfish in terms of air/ground forces they aren't going to be all carried in the hangar since that means giving up Alphas:
-Condor Battloids. These things are simply too big to use the Alpha Hangar doors, let alone the old timers hatch.
-Bioroid Interceptor. Could fit into the hangars, but certainly can't use the old timers hatch.
-Beta Fighter. Technically these can fit into the hangar (at least with wings retracted I suspect), but if we are looking for large mecha... And don't want to lose Alpha capacity
-Silverbacks: can use the hangars, but the old timers hatch would be a very tight fit in a stripped down (no weapons) state that we are looking to avoid with weapons it does not look good.
-VHTs the -2 potentially could work from the non-hangar hatch, but not the -1. If there is a -3 or better (only suggesting it due to Scott's comment in NG#2 about spotting hovertanks in debris)
-AAT-30, would be a tight fit but a bit easier than a Silverback
-AAT-40 the old timers must have had a AAT-40 for Gabby to drive, like the AAT-30 its a tight fit
-M-70 Kodiak, wider than an armed Silverback
-Zentreadi Mecha. Based on the Bioroid Interceptor text in the 2E RPG, these are in use by the UEEF with their pilots stated to be transferring to Alpha and Beta Fighters (Beta is said to enter service in 2037) as the inventory was used up
-ADDITIONAL Alphas, or Alpha derived platforms (speculation here I admit), to boost the strength of the Garfish "squadron" or for transit replacements

Seto wrote:If the ship's not intended for use as a cargo hauler, and is only meant to carry modest and easily portable cargo like boxes of rifles and ammunition for small arms, concessions to heavy cargo aren't necessary.

If the goal is to off load materials in a combat situation though you are going to want to unload the Garfish as fast as possible. By hand is just not practical. That means you need some way to drive them off since on the ground the Garfish's ability to defend itself is limited.

Seto wrote:You'd need pretty substantial structural reinforcement to strap extra, external modules beneath the ship and expect them to stay put during the kind of acceleration we've seen the ships are capable of. It's possible the section also includes life support and power tap connections for the docking modules as well.

Taps aren't going to need that much extra space, especially if they have to pipe it between the forward and rear sections. It stands to reason that the section in question is mostly open volume.

As for reinforcement. I have considered that, but seems unlikely when you consider the Horizon-T and its ability to carry those detachable pods on the wings no less, not to mention the Alpha/Beta. I am aware of the size/potential mass difference here. Then we have the Ikazuchi's and the N-S missiles they docked to.

Incidentally in AoTSC on pg110, the Shimakaze-class artwork lables a section a hangar, that section has similar design markings to the Garfish "docking collar" on the sides (underneath it matches closely with the Alpha hangar) that can also be seen when you turn the page to the Garfish section. Unless the UEEF uses unique markings between ships (which is possible), that would indicate that those are hatches on the Garfish, or at least set precedent on that interpretation.

Seto wrote:They leave port to go directly into battle, or at best, stay on patrol practically within eyeshot of their home port. This is consistent with how the ships of the UEEF are designed... they don't even have proper concessions to recover the aircraft they're launching.

Is the UEEF involved in CONSTANT battle though? Not likely. Actually the Garfish has potentially more storage volume than a Horizon-T if we take the bunker size in the 1E Sentinels RPG as accurate (since there aren't any other numbers that even you know of) or at least close enough (there is a slight difference between 1E RPG size for the Horizon and Infopedia). 1E RPG lists the size at 39.6m long x 10m tall x 10.4m wide. You could stack the equivalent cargo of 2 easily into an Infopedia Garfish (trading the length of the pod for the width of the Garfish) given the width is 59m and the main body is 33m tall and it's 179m long (size is essentially canon after all).

That basically means a cargo/troop optimized Garfish variant (at canon stated sizes) would be more attractive to transport materials and troops than a single Horizon-T. The one advantage a Horizon-T has is being able to unload faster as it can just leave the pods behind.

Actually recovery of aircaft/mecha is certainly possible, however it will be different than what we see in TMS saga or TRM saga. To put it simply, it will look more like Helicopter/VTOL recovery than fixed-wing aircraft recovery.

ShadowLogan wrote:So they are going to move MM-60 compatible missiles from internal stores up and down ladders? For the stated 15 Alphas no less?

Possibly, assuming that the ship is actually carrying anything like mecha-scale ordinance... though it's worth remembering that, like almost every other UEEF ship, the Garfish-class has no actual concessions to recovering the aircraft it launches.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Condor Battloids. These things are simply too big to use the Alpha Hangar doors, let alone the old timers hatch.

What makes you assume that Condors were carried aboard Garfish-class ships?

All available evidence (OSM and otherwise) suggests the Condors are essentially mechanized paratroopers... they aren't waiting for landing to disembark.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Bioroid Interceptor. Could fit into the hangars, but certainly can't use the old timers hatch.

Same question.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Beta Fighter. Technically these can fit into the hangar (at least with wings retracted I suspect), but if we are looking for large mecha... And don't want to lose Alpha capacity

But the Garfish-class doesn't carry these... only Horizonts (when docked or carried as cargo) and, in RTSC, the Ikazuchi-class.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Silverbacks: can use the hangars, but the old timers hatch would be a very tight fit in a stripped down (no weapons) state that we are looking to avoid with weapons it does not look good.

The Garfish is not an infantry transport... this is the domain of the Horizont descent shuttles.

ShadowLogan wrote:If the goal is to off load materials in a combat situation though you are going to want to unload the Garfish as fast as possible. By hand is just not practical. That means you need some way to drive them off since on the ground the Garfish's ability to defend itself is limited.

Repeating what I said above, the Garfish-class is demonstrably NOT a landing craft... if you need/want mecha and equipment deployed in combat conditions, quickly and effectively, you send a Horizont. That's what they're FOR.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for reinforcement. I have considered that, but seems unlikely when you consider the Horizon-T and its ability to carry those detachable pods on the wings no less, not to mention the Alpha/Beta. I am aware of the size/potential mass difference here. Then we have the Ikazuchi's and the N-S missiles they docked to.

Yes, but the Horizont's engines aren't all that powerful... it's not meant for cruising deep space or anything of that nature. It isn't going to put the same stresses on itself that a Garfish will impose by maneuvering under power say, near a black hole.

ShadowLogan wrote:Unless the UEEF uses unique markings between ships (which is possible), that would indicate that those are hatches on the Garfish, or at least set precedent on that interpretation.

There's not even consistency of markings on the SAME ships between the series and RTSC, what makes you imagine there'd be any consistency between classes and titles?

ShadowLogan wrote:Is the UEEF involved in CONSTANT battle though? Not likely.

Both the official material and RPG would suggest that, yes, they have been involved in ongoing active conflict for almost the entire time they've been in deep space. The RPG takes it to the extreme of saying that it's reached a point where military service is quite literally the ONLY career path open to anyone born in space.

Seto wrote:Possibly, assuming that the ship is actually carrying anything like mecha-scale ordinance... though it's worth remembering that, like almost every other UEEF ship, the Garfish-class has no actual concessions to recovering the aircraft it launches.

I have to disagree with the Garfish/UEEF ship's ability to recover deployed aircraft. From a TRM/TMS standpoint the UEEF recovery procedure will be different. It only looks like there is a lack in recovery if one wants to force a TRM/TMS model on the UEEF for recovery.

Manually carrying down all those missiles would be very time consuming.

Seto wrote:What makes you assume that Condors were carried aboard Garfish-class ships?

All available evidence (OSM and otherwise) suggests the Condors are essentially mechanized paratroopers... they aren't waiting for landing to disembark.

Condors enter service in the mid 2020s (per 2E RPG) IIRC. Garfish are known to be operating by 2030-1 period. So they would at minimum be a factor to be considered in the design of the Garfish.

Plus Invasion comic has them around to protect the Conbats (at least according to dialogue in #1). Not to mention the animation still shot has them in space (with a Garfish-esque object in the background) by all indications.

Re: Bioroid Interceptor.
These are flight capable mecha, just like the Condor. And as Prelude shows would be deployed for actions in space. So it is possible the Garfish can be expected to utilize them depending on the possible roles the ship would be configured as.

Re: Beta Fighter
The Garfish-class doesn't carry any standard you mean. Size-wise it is possible the Beta could be carried if the wings are folded up (its not like wings are necessary in space). And the Garfish-Recon/Science variant can carry a joined A/B (per AotSC pg139), which means Beta fighter isn't completely alien to the Garfish family.

Seto wrote:The Garfish is not an infantry transport... this is the domain of the Horizont descent shuttles.

No it is not the domain of the Horizon-T from the Infopedia Article on the Garfish "...but also as a high speed transport or even as an infantry assault craft by using the hold for general cargo or troops.". So yes Infantry platforms like the Silverback, AAT-30/40, M-70, etc have to be considered.

Seto wrote:Repeating what I said above, the Garfish-class is demonstrably NOT a landing craft... if you need/want mecha and equipment deployed in combat conditions, quickly and effectively, you send a Horizont. That's what they're FOR.

See above quote from the Infopedia.

Seto wrote:Yes, but the Horizont's engines aren't all that powerful... it's not meant for cruising deep space or anything of that nature. It isn't going to put the same stresses on itself that a Garfish will impose by maneuvering under power say, near a black hole.

I highly doubt maneuvering under power close to a black hole would be a major design consideration for either the Garfish or Horizon (or any vessel). As far as forces exerted on it, indications are from the show that the Horizon is deployed to move in formation with the Garfish & Ik, suggesting it has to be able to hand the same level of G-Forces (it just lacks the range of the larger ships). Plus with things like Gravity Control and other advanced/exotic technologies/materials that may be present it may not need to be as bulky to get the necessary protection.

Seto wrote:There's not even consistency of markings on the SAME ships between the series and RTSC, what makes you imagine there'd be any consistency between classes and titles?

Given the high consistency in the Icarus depictions and various Garfish depictions have displaying this marking it appears there may be consistency in meaning.

Seto wrote:Both the official material and RPG would suggest that, yes, they have been involved in ongoing active conflict for almost the entire time they've been in deep space. The RPG takes it to the extreme of saying that it's reached a point where military service is quite literally the ONLY career path open to anyone born in space.

But it is unlikely that the entire UEEF military is engaged in active conflict. They have to have forces acting in a defense role at places like Tirol, SSL, and ALUCE.

ShadowLogan wrote:I have to disagree with the Garfish/UEEF ship's ability to recover deployed aircraft. From a TRM/TMS standpoint the UEEF recovery procedure will be different. It only looks like there is a lack in recovery if one wants to force a TRM/TMS model on the UEEF for recovery.

Art printed in AotSC strongly supports the notion that carrier recovery is not handled differently.

ShadowLogan wrote:Manually carrying down all those missiles would be very time consuming.

Certainly no worse than having to service the fighter in the field at an invasion staging area... though I suspect reloads (if any) are going to be kept IN the hangar (that way if a dangerous condition occurs, the whole module can be cut loose).

ShadowLogan wrote:Condors enter service in the mid 2020s (per 2E RPG) IIRC. Garfish are known to be operating by 2030-1 period. So they would at minimum be a factor to be considered in the design of the Garfish.

Only if they were intended to carry the Condor... which all evidence presently suggests they were not.

ShadowLogan wrote:These are flight capable mecha, just like the Condor. And as Prelude shows would be deployed for actions in space. So it is possible the Garfish can be expected to utilize them depending on the possible roles the ship would be configured as.

They are also specialist units only known (officially) to have been deployed to a single ship... the SDF-3 Pioneer, which renders the point moot.

ShadowLogan wrote:And the Garfish-Recon/Science variant can carry a joined A/B (per AotSC pg139), which means Beta fighter isn't completely alien to the Garfish family.

Carried externally, isn't it? That's not the same thing.

ShadowLogan wrote:No it is not the domain of the Horizon-T from the Infopedia Article on the Garfish "...but also as a high speed transport or even as an infantry assault craft by using the hold for general cargo or troops.". So yes Infantry platforms like the Silverback, AAT-30/40, M-70, etc have to be considered.

As we noted previously, landing of mechanized infantry is likely to be done the way we see in the comics... by keeping the vehicles down in the hangar module. I don't deny that infantry in Cyclones could theoretically ride aboard the main body of the ship, but we never actually see it happen. The infantry support options are among the smallest mecha in the UEEF inventory, and would handily work inside the cargo bay we see in the show.

ShadowLogan wrote:See above quote from the Infopedia.

Doesn't contradict what I said. The ship isn't a troop lander... it can carry troops, but it is NOT a troop transport by design. To offer an example, you CAN carry cargo on a Geo Metro, but who would?

ShadowLogan wrote:I highly doubt maneuvering under power close to a black hole would be a major design consideration for either the Garfish or Horizon (or any vessel). As far as forces exerted on it, indications are from the show that the Horizon is deployed to move in formation with the Garfish & Ik, suggesting it has to be able to hand the same level of G-Forces (it just lacks the range of the larger ships).

Or, a more logical explanation, that the ships are not travelling at maximum burn so as to not outpace the short-range shuttles... which would have no need for an engine with a high maximum instantaneous thrust.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given the high consistency in the Icarus depictions and various Garfish depictions have displaying this marking it appears there may be consistency in meaning.

I say again, there's not even consistency in markings between the same class of ship... let alone between different classes.

ShadowLogan wrote:But it is unlikely that the entire UEEF military is engaged in active conflict. They have to have forces acting in a defense role at places like Tirol, SSL, and ALUCE.

[/quote]
Based on RTSC, the UEEF is not all that large... the vast majority of their fleet doesn't even number 400 ships, and we're told point blank in the RPG (with strong implication in official material) that war is pretty much ALL they've done in the 22 years they've been away from Earth. The way we see the UEEF fleet operate, if the ships aren't fighting or staging for battle, they're sitting in port.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:I have to disagree with the Garfish/UEEF ship's ability to recover deployed aircraft. From a TRM/TMS standpoint the UEEF recovery procedure will be different. It only looks like there is a lack in recovery if one wants to force a TRM/TMS model on the UEEF for recovery.

Art printed in AotSC strongly supports the notion that carrier recovery is not handled differently.

What is TRM/TMS carrier recovery?

Seto wrote:Art printed in AotSC strongly supports the notion that carrier recovery is not handled differently.

Page #(s)?

I know the rectoned the Ik. to have more of that Trade Federation flagship look (in SW Ep3 when Kenobi/Skywalker flew into it to rescue the Chancellor) for the recovery hangar, but that doesn't necessarily help the quick launch bays, or the Garfish, or the Horizon-T.

Seto wrote:Certainly no worse than having to service the fighter in the field at an invasion staging area... though I suspect reloads (if any) are going to be kept IN the hangar (that way if a dangerous condition occurs, the whole module can be cut loose).

But in the field they can potentially use hand carts and such to move multiple missiles at one time to the fighter if need be so the distance they have to travel is shorter per each trip (and with potentially 60+ missiles to replace).

I do agree some ordnance could be carried in the hangar modules, but it would seem to make more sense to put the bulk of it else where. Having the reloads in the body of the ship shouldn't really matter given at other times it could be transporting ordnance for ground troops (AAT-#0s, M-70, VR-0##s, VM-9) of the same variety and it does have its own missile stores, so the ship itself already has to consider safety issues like that.

Seto wrote:Only if they were intended to carry the Condor... which all evidence presently suggests they were not.

That wouldn't make much sense though. Something has to be transporting the Condor, it certainly isn't Horizon-Ts. In known operations that leaves the Ik or the Garfish, and the animation does suggest the Condor operates with the Garfish in the still shot. Comics seem to avoid the issue though.

Seto wrote:They are also specialist units only known (officially) to have been deployed to a single ship... the SDF-3 Pioneer, which renders the point moot.

Vince's Tok. not the SDF-3. And no it really doesn't render the point moot because we have no idea how the Specialist force of Zent/Tirolians is distributed among the UEEF, so it is still possible, especially if they are put on detached assignment to other vessels.

Seto wrote:Carried externally, isn't it? That's not the same thing.

Yes, but from an operations standpoint the Beta is not completely out of Garfish operations. Size wise it can be made to fit into the Alpha hangars to in Fighter Mode (B/G no), so may be a consideration there to. For the Hold itself, the Beta size wise is on par w/the Condor in Battloid mode, so if the Condor works with a Garfish then the Beta should to.

Seto wrote:As we noted previously, landing of mechanized infantry is likely to be done the way we see in the comics... by keeping the vehicles down in the hangar module. I don't deny that infantry in Cyclones could theoretically ride aboard the main body of the ship, but we never actually see it happen. The infantry support options are among the smallest mecha in the UEEF inventory, and would handily work inside the cargo bay we see in the show.

Can we be sure that the Garfish we do see landing/recovering ground troops is in the ideal configuration for ground forces transport or is it just being used in a "make do" way because the UEEF didn't have the time to reconfigure it (or has enough reconfiguration kits)?

There are a lot of platforms that can fit inside the Garfish from what we see, and can derive from the stated size. That really isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned, the ship is supposed to be modular and reconfigurable to some extent for missions (allowing for over-sized items to be carried relative to the old timers ship's depiction). The issue is how to get those platforms out. It is more logical that the Garfish-core (no mission module like Hangar or Science/Recon) has multiple hatches than the single one we see used given it is supposed to land and potentially transfer out what it is carrying.

Seto wrote:Doesn't contradict what I said. The ship isn't a troop lander... it can carry troops, but it is NOT a troop transport by design. To offer an example, you CAN carry cargo on a Geo Metro, but who would?

No it isn't primarily a troop lander, but it can be configured to be one. One that can potentially carry more troops/material than the Horizon-T with its two bunkers as previously mentioned. It would make sense that if a Garfish is being used in this role, that it would have to offer advantages over the Horion-T. It certainly can't unload its cargo faster than a Horizon, since the Horizon can just release its cargo pods and leave, a Garfish has to unload slower, but likely comparable to the cargo pods themselves.

The Geo Metro example is flawed though. What are we comparing its cargo ability to. Cause I can get more cargo into a Geo Metro than either of use can carry. To be a valid comparison the Geo Metro has to be bigger to boot to stand in for the Garfish.

Seto wrote:Or, a more logical explanation, that the ships are not travelling at maximum burn so as to not outpace the short-range shuttles... which would have no need for an engine with a high maximum instantaneous thrust.Or, a more logical explanation, that the ships are not travelling at maximum burn so as to not outpace the short-range shuttles... which would have no need for an engine with a high maximum instantaneous thrust.

While that is possible, those vessels are also more massive so higher thrust in their case doesn't necessarily equal a higher acceleration value (long term velocity of course is another matter). Having requirements to operate deep inside the gravity well of a black hole (or other high mass object) also seems unlikely a destination for the UEEF.

Seto wrote:I say again, there's not even consistency in markings between the same class of ship... let alone between different classes.

Except these markings are pretty consistent though. The marking itself isn't used all the time every where I'll grant, but when we do see it used elsewhere it is on movable panels.

Seto wrote:Based on RTSC, the UEEF is not all that large... the vast majority of their fleet doesn't even number 400 ships, and we're told point blank in the RPG (with strong implication in official material) that war is pretty much ALL they've done in the 22 years they've been away from Earth. The way we see the UEEF fleet operate, if the ships aren't fighting or staging for battle, they're sitting in port.

If they are staging or sitting in port, then they are not all engaged in constant battle then. Which is my point, they have to have troops free to train new recruits and in position to defend installations (which also need staff), give them down time for repairs or to take on new supplies, etc. The UEEF is not 100% engaged in battle.

eliakon wrote:What is TRM/TMS carrier recovery?

The main depicted TMS recovery option in space is to use the arrestor cables like on a traditional aircraft carrier for the UEDF. In Ep3 and once later (Zent/RDF mission capture the RFS) they don't use the approach, its more fly onto/into the ship and land VTOL style. This later approach is something that the UEEF ships shown in NG can duplicate easily enough and what I think they do, but it also isn't the approach most people probably think of with regard to TMS I think.

I have to correct myself now that I think about it, but TRM approach is depicted closer to the secondary approach of flying into/onto the ship which is what I think the UEEF uses. They don't appear to use arrestor cables. That strongly points to the arrestor cable setup to have been abandoned for recovery.

ShadowLogan wrote:Page #(s)?

's in the Ark Angel section... there are identified landing strips on the Ark Angel's upper hull.

ShadowLogan wrote:I know the rectoned the Ik. to have more of that Trade Federation flagship look (in SW Ep3 when Kenobi/Skywalker flew into it to rescue the Chancellor) for the recovery hangar, but that doesn't necessarily help the quick launch bays, or the Garfish, or the Horizon-T.

Didn't help the Ikazuchi either... it's using Battlestar Galactica-style tunnels for its fighters, so good luck landing. (That would probably be why they never SHOW the ships recovering fighters... it's pretty much imposible.)

ShadowLogan wrote:But in the field they can potentially use hand carts and such to move multiple missiles at one time to the fighter if need be so the distance they have to travel is shorter per each trip (and with potentially 60+ missiles to replace).

Potentially, but the missiles are not large or particularly weighty, so it should be a non-issue.

ShadowLogan wrote:Having the reloads in the body of the ship shouldn't really matter given at other times it could be transporting ordnance for ground troops (AAT-#0s, M-70, VR-0##s, VM-9) of the same variety and it does have its own missile stores, so the ship itself already has to consider safety issues like that.

Ideally, you'd want to keep the ship-grade ordinance as far removed from anything else that might be volatile in case of a cook-off incident (meaning "other vehicle ordinance"), so if they were carrying ground troops they'd probably either send ammo down on a Horizont (which has very capacious cargo areas) or keep vehicle ammo with the vehicles.

ShadowLogan wrote:That wouldn't make much sense though. Something has to be transporting the Condor, it certainly isn't Horizon-Ts. In known operations that leaves the Ik or the Garfish, and the animation does suggest the Condor operates with the Garfish in the still shot. Comics seem to avoid the issue though.

"Operates alongside" does not imply "carries".

They avoid the issue with the Condor because the MOSPEADA OSM says the square root of bloody nothing about how Condors were deployed during the 1st Earth Recapture mission. The original creators don't know, so consequentially Harmony Gold doesn't know.

ShadowLogan wrote:Vince's Tok. not the SDF-3. And no it really doesn't render the point moot because we have no idea how the Specialist force of Zent/Tirolians is distributed among the UEEF, so it is still possible, especially if they are put on detached assignment to other vessels.

They're completely gone after they were wiped out fighting aboard the Regent's flagship... getting rid of the remaining recognizable Macross or Macross-related designs was the entire point of that comic.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes, but from an operations standpoint the Beta is not completely out of Garfish operations.

In a completely different context... which doesn't support your argument here, esp. since it's unique to a variant that otherwise has NO fighter accommodations.

ShadowLogan wrote:Can we be sure that the Garfish we do see landing/recovering ground troops is in the ideal configuration for ground forces transport or is it just being used in a "make do" way because the UEEF didn't have the time to reconfigure it (or has enough reconfiguration kits)?

There has been no mention or indication of a Garfish variant specifically designed to transport ground forces... so the safest assumption with the given evidence is that, yes, the Garfish we see landing/recovering troops is the configuration they use to do so.

ShadowLogan wrote:That really isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned, the ship is supposed to be modular and reconfigurable to some extent for missions [...]

Er... the "reconfigurable" aspect is attributed to it specifically because of the modular mission package on the docking connector in AotSC.

ShadowLogan wrote:No it isn't primarily a troop lander, but it can be configured to be one.

In extremis, yes... but good luck disembarking swiftly.

ShadowLogan wrote:One that can potentially carry more troops/material than the Horizon-T with its two bunkers as previously mentioned.

Debatable at best, impossible to substantiate at worst... the cargo bay we see in the series isn't all that capacious, certainly not enough to be holding more than TWO Horizont modules.

ShadowLogan wrote:While that is possible, those vessels are also more massive so higher thrust in their case doesn't necessarily equal a higher acceleration value (long term velocity of course is another matter). Having requirements to operate deep inside the gravity well of a black hole (or other high mass object) also seems unlikely a destination for the UEEF.

Since they're always shown operating in close proximity to large ships in space... it's possible they're cheating down their engine's thrust requirements by riding the gravitational field of the larger vessels.

ShadowLogan wrote:If they are staging or sitting in port, then they are not all engaged in constant battle then. Which is my point, they have to have troops free to train new recruits and in position to defend installations (which also need staff), give them down time for repairs or to take on new supplies, etc. The UEEF is not 100% engaged in battle.

The entire force is not engaged in battle 100% of the time, but the whole force has been committed to the war effort... downtime in port is shown to be pretty much "the lull between combat operations".

Seto wrote:'s in the Ark Angel section... there are identified landing strips on the Ark Angel's upper hull.

Actually no. The text reads "Landing strip (Bay closed)". Given the "Bay Closed" aspect that points to it not pointing to an exterior landing strip, but rather the Landing Bay that is marked on the facing side of the ship only the opposite (hidden) view.

Seto wrote:Didn't help the Ikazuchi either... it's using Battlestar Galactica-style tunnels for its fighters, so good luck landing. (That would probably be why they never SHOW the ships recovering fighters... it's pretty much imposible.)

That's just it, there is nothing wrong with the tunnel approach (provided one approaches with the correct velocity). The SDF-1 retrieved VF-1s in Ep3 via tunnel entrances. The AGACs are recovered this way too on the ASC ships, and the 15th on the Bioroid Sleds. There really isn't a need to do the "cool" looking aircraft carrier approach, as in RT it is depicted as rare in terms of users. We see Zentreadi ships deploy/recover mecha without issue, including VF-1s. Even the Masters ships and bioroids/sleds don't seem to have issues.

Now the Ikazcuchi have the "new hangar" rotated 90deg, which complicates recovery I do agree with, but it doesn't make it impossible.

Seto wrote:Potentially, but the missiles are not large or particularly weighty, so it should be a non-issue.

But how many can a person be expected to carry safely on a ladder though? I know they aren't large, but there are only so many that can be carried by hand up/down a ladder system by one person. Even in the field, if you want to reload as fast as possible the approach your suggesting seems awfully slow.

Seto wrote:Ideally, you'd want to keep the ship-grade ordinance as far removed from anything else that might be volatile in case of a cook-off incident (meaning "other vehicle ordinance"), so if they were carrying ground troops they'd probably either send ammo down on a Horizont (which has very capacious cargo areas) or keep vehicle ammo with the vehicles.

But ideally, if you are intending something to be transporting ordinance it will have proper safety precautions taken in the design.

Seto wrote:"Operates alongside" does not imply "carries".

They avoid the issue with the Condor because the MOSPEADA OSM says the square root of bloody nothing about how Condors were deployed during the 1st Earth Recapture mission. The original creators don't know, so consequentially Harmony Gold doesn't know.

We aren't discussing the OSM though. The Condor is shown escorting/screening the Garfish in the still shot. Something has to have transported them to Earth, which is what we are considering. If it wasn't the Garfish or Ikazuchi (as a Horizon's bunkers are to small), then only thing left at this point is the Condor itself and that means it has to be the single most advanced mecha in RT from a propulsion standpoint complete with FTL and some means to reach orbit and maneuver over long distances in reasonable time frames (which available documentation indicates is not the case). The most reasonable explanation is that the Garfish and Ikazuchi are capable of transporting Condors.

Seto wrote:They're completely gone after they were wiped out fighting aboard the Regent's flagship... getting rid of the remaining recognizable Macross or Macross-related designs was the entire point of that comic.

In 2044, but they've been around for 20+ years in one form or another as a force, the BI is newer of course, but the Zentreadi (macross elements) are not the only users (Tirolians per 2E RPG). What about pre-2044 use of the BI? Even post 2044 we still have the possibility of Tirolian operators using the mecha for the UEEF.

Seto wrote:There has been no mention or indication of a Garfish variant specifically designed to transport ground forces... so the safest assumption with the given evidence is that, yes, the Garfish we see landing/recovering troops is the configuration they use to do so.

But we do know there are other mission configurations. "Other mission configurations can include science and reconnaissance modules"-AOTSC pg113. The use of "include" in the statement allows there to be other mission configurations and modules, they are just to lazy to list more.

Seto wrote:Er... the "reconfigurable" aspect is attributed to it specifically because of the modular mission package on the docking connector in AotSC.

Given the Garfish can also carry Conbats, and other mission cargo or troops it stands to reason the interior can also be reconfigured for the mission at hand. Or do all those troops park themselves on the floor and wait? Does cargo have differing requirement in how one secures it? Etc.

[quote-"Seto"]In extremis, yes... but good luck disembarking swiftly.[/quote]
Swifty is only a problem if you try to force everything through the one old timers hatch. If we treat the Garfish-core as having additional door/ramps elsewhere to faciliate faster unloading disembarking swiftly becomes a lot easier.

Seto wrote:the cargo bay we see in the series isn't all that capacious, certainly not enough to be holding more than TWO Horizont modules.

The Garfish officially in RT IS 179m long by 33m tall (core) by 59m wide. Given what we see in the episode in question, there is a lot of untapped potential to account for. So the cargo bay we see in the series may not be the only bay.

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually no. The text reads "Landing strip (Bay closed)". Given the "Bay Closed" aspect that points to it not pointing to an exterior landing strip, but rather the Landing Bay that is marked on the facing side of the ship only the opposite (hidden) view.

Given the visuals in question, and Tommy's comments on the design, the approach appears to have been planned as being more or less the same as the Prometheus's... land on a landing strip, taxi into an elevator or hangar bay.

(The Ark Angel was originally supposed to be a sort of new SDF-1 design-wise, but Harmony Gold backed away from the design for what were probably legal reasons.)

ShadowLogan wrote:That's just it, there is nothing wrong with the tunnel approach (provided one approaches with the correct velocity).

Provided the tunnel is big enough... the ones we see in Shadow Chronicles are not, not by a long shot. They're barely large enough to permit the departure of an Alpha in fighter mode. The landing areas shown in the other two sagas are much roomier... less chance of an abrupt introduction of the cockpit to a wall.

ShadowLogan wrote:We see Zentreadi ships deploy/recover mecha without issue, including VF-1s. Even the Masters ships and bioroids/sleds don't seem to have issues.

Strictly speaking, we don't actually SEE Zentradi ships recovering mecha directly... we see the mecha fly off to the ships, but we're never shown them actually landing on it, with the sole exception of VF-1s landing on the ship's dorsal hull and taking an elevator to the hangar.

ShadowLogan wrote:But ideally, if you are intending something to be transporting ordinance it will have proper safety precautions taken in the design.

But we have nothing to suggest the Garfish-class is used for transporting anything other than small arms, ammunition for the small arms, and other human-scale supplies in the internal cargo holds. Large cargo or ammunition would be better suited to the Horizonts, which can cut a cargo pod loose if something goes awry.

ShadowLogan wrote:We aren't discussing the OSM though.

That makes no difference to the facts, I'm afraid. The OSM plays a very significant role in Harmony Gold's creative process, and it shows.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Condor is shown escorting/screening the Garfish in the still shot. Something has to have transported them to Earth, which is what we are considering. If it wasn't the Garfish or Ikazuchi (as a Horizon's bunkers are to small), [...]

The Ikazuchi-class with the launch bays would be the logical choice, considering the Condor is a non-transformable mecha and that the Ikazuchi's bays won't fit a Conbat. The most logical assumption is that the battloid-specific bays on the Ikazuchi carried the Condors, and the Garfish-class ships carried the accompanying Conbats. The Ikazuchi-class isn't suited to the task of planetary landing, so having the Garfish-class ships accompany the mecha down would be the obvious choice.

ShadowLogan wrote:In 2044, but they've been around for 20+ years in one form or another as a force, the BI is newer of course, but the Zentreadi (macross elements) are not the only users (Tirolians per 2E RPG). What about pre-2044 use of the BI? Even post 2044 we still have the possibility of Tirolian operators using the mecha for the UEEF.

Considering that it's established that the Zentradi were few in number, and principally operating other mecha until the relatively late adoption of the Bioroid Interceptor, and the expressed rarity of aliens fighting alongside the UEEF in RTSC, the odds of human small ships having to accommodate the Bioroids are slim at best.

ShadowLogan wrote:But we do know there are other mission configurations. "Other mission configurations can include science and reconnaissance modules"-AOTSC pg113. The use of "include" in the statement allows there to be other mission configurations and modules, they are just to lazy to list more.

Until we have evidence a specific configuration exists for that role, the safest assumption from the evidence is to assume that there isn't one and that what we've been shown already IS the proper configuration for the role.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given the Garfish can also carry Conbats, and other mission cargo or troops it stands to reason the interior can also be reconfigured for the mission at hand. Or do all those troops park themselves on the floor and wait? Does cargo have differing requirement in how one secures it? Etc.

The interior of the modular pod, perhaps... nothing has been said WRT the modularity of the ship's interior.

ShadowLogan wrote:Swifty is only a problem if you try to force everything through the one old timers hatch. If we treat the Garfish-core as having additional door/ramps elsewhere to faciliate faster unloading disembarking swiftly becomes a lot easier.

Bring me evidence of other hatches or ramps sufficient to the task, and we can consider it, but in the absence of evidence...

ShadowLogan wrote:The Garfish officially in RT IS 179m long by 33m tall (core) by 59m wide. Given what we see in the episode in question, there is a lot of untapped potential to account for. So the cargo bay we see in the series may not be the only bay.

The animation doesn't support the Infopedia's contention about the Garfish-class's size, but one must assume that since this is also been upgraded to an interstellar ship instead of merely an interplanetary one, that corresponding increases have been made in accommodations for crew, life support, fuel, power generation, etc. which would lay claim to substantial internal space.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:We see Zentreadi ships deploy/recover mecha without issue, including VF-1s. Even the Masters ships and bioroids/sleds don't seem to have issues.

Strictly speaking, we don't actually SEE Zentradi ships recovering mecha directly... we see the mecha fly off to the ships, but we're never shown them actually landing on it, with the sole exception of VF-1s landing on the ship's dorsal hull and taking an elevator to the hangar.

So we are to assume that no mecha are actually ever recovered then? That all mecha, ever launched, are just one way? That defies logic....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:We aren't discussing the OSM though.

That makes no difference to the facts, I'm afraid. The OSM plays a very significant role in Harmony Gold's creative process, and it shows.

That still doesn't make it relevant beyond the fact that it provides inspiration to those who write the actual canon. This isn't Mosspedia, or Macross, or what ever.....so material from those shows has no bearing on the official details of this show, unless and until such material is ported over and canonized by HG.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:In 2044, but they've been around for 20+ years in one form or another as a force, the BI is newer of course, but the Zentreadi (macross elements) are not the only users (Tirolians per 2E RPG). What about pre-2044 use of the BI? Even post 2044 we still have the possibility of Tirolian operators using the mecha for the UEEF.

Considering that it's established that the Zentradi were few in number, and principally operating other mecha until the relatively late adoption of the Bioroid Interceptor, and the expressed rarity of aliens fighting alongside the UEEF in RTSC, the odds of human small ships having to accommodate the Bioroids are slim at best.

Only if there are non-human ships in the fleet though.....so either there are other ships in the fleet to carry them, or the mecha go on human ships....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:But we do know there are other mission configurations. "Other mission configurations can include science and reconnaissance modules"-AOTSC pg113. The use of "include" in the statement allows there to be other mission configurations and modules, they are just to lazy to list more.

Until we have evidence a specific configuration exists for that role, the safest assumption from the evidence is to assume that there isn't one and that what we've been shown already IS the proper configuration for the role.

Um no. The safest conclusion is that we have been shown two possible configurations. That is what the word 'includes' means. If there are only two configurations then it could not 'include' its only other option.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:The Garfish officially in RT IS 179m long by 33m tall (core) by 59m wide. Given what we see in the episode in question, there is a lot of untapped potential to account for. So the cargo bay we see in the series may not be the only bay.

The animation doesn't support the Infopedia's contention about the Garfish-class's size, but one must assume that since this is also been upgraded to an interstellar ship instead of merely an interplanetary one, that corresponding increases have been made in accommodations for crew, life support, fuel, power generation, etc. which would lay claim to substantial internal space.

The Art of the Shadow Chronicles provides the size. Since it was done by the people doing the animation, it presumably is correct.

eliakon wrote:So we are to assume that no mecha are actually ever recovered then? That all mecha, ever launched, are just one way? That defies logic....

Therein lies one of the significant problems with trying to reinvent the Mars Colony fleets from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA as your normal, long-duration space fleet... the designs very obviously don't support basic things like that. It's a huge problem from a logical standpoint.

Why?

Simply put, because they WERE a one-way ticket in the original story the animation was actually intended to go with. The forces of Mars Colony and the outer solar system settlements were sending purpose-built assault ships to Earth with enough manpower to at least establish a fortified beachhead from which they could liberate the planet. The ships were simply not intended to recover their fighters after combat, the goal was to get troops and supplies to the surface and then go back to the staging areas for more.

The Shadow Chronicles movie basically ignored the problem entirely except for on the new ship designs that were intended to be carried forward in subsequent titles (the Ark Angel and Icarus). The concept/production art for those two offers us a relatively clear indication of how those ships were meant to recover aircraft. The Ark Angel appears to have a runway on the dorsal hull leading to a hangar, and the Icarus seems to use the "landing tunnel" approach seen early in the Macross Saga.

eliakon wrote:That still doesn't make it relevant beyond the fact that it provides inspiration to those who write the actual canon. This isn't Mosspedia, or Macross, or what ever.....so material from those shows has no bearing on the official details of this show, unless and until such material is ported over and canonized by HG.

The OSM is always relevant, because it dictates the content of the animation and Harmony Gold relies on it more or less as the top arbiter of what's what for stats and the like. There are deviations, some of which are obviously the result of errors either due to a physical impossibility or obvious mismatch to what's shown, but by in large the OSM stands above everything else.

eliakon wrote:Only if there are non-human ships in the fleet though.....so either there are other ships in the fleet to carry them, or the mecha go on human ships....

We know the few alien soldiers in the UEEF operated from human ships, but we also know they operated from the older, much larger ships that much more readily accommodate something like a Bioroid or a Battle pod (e.g. a Tokugawa-class ship). They aren't a thing after Breetai's unit is wiped out, though, so the point is rather moot.

eliakon wrote:Um no. The safest conclusion is that we have been shown two possible configurations. That is what the word 'includes' means. If there are only two configurations then it could not 'include' its only other option.

All we have is a statement that there are possibly other configurations, no specifics as to what those configurations are... guessing wildly without supporting evidence is not a safe assumption, or the basis for a logical argument.

eliakon wrote:The Art of the Shadow Chronicles provides the size. Since it was done by the people doing the animation, it presumably is correct.

Um... that's actually a false statement.

The The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles book was not written by the people who did the animation, it was written by fans (mostly copypasta from the Infopedia's demonstrably faulty article). None of the animation staff from DR Movie were credited with contribution to the printed content of the book.

Mind you, analysis of the CG models via the HD release of the OVA indicates that the ships are actually sized wrongly for their RT stats... they're far too small. Larger than the OSM spec, but still closer to that than to the stats in the book. We're talking around 400m for an Ikazuchi, and maybe 100-110m for a Garfish. They're also off in terms of proportions, with both classes of ship being somewhat less tall relative to their length. Harmony Gold seems to be aware of this, and adjusted the image on their site's size comparison, but did not adjust the dimensions in the text.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:So we are to assume that no mecha are actually ever recovered then? That all mecha, ever launched, are just one way? That defies logic....

Therein lies one of the significant problems with trying to reinvent the Mars Colony fleets from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA as your normal, long-duration space fleet... the designs very obviously don't support basic things like that. It's a huge problem from a logical standpoint.

Why?

Simply put, because they WERE a one-way ticket in the original story the animation was actually intended to go with. The forces of Mars Colony and the outer solar system settlements were sending purpose-built assault ships to Earth with enough manpower to at least establish a fortified beachhead from which they could liberate the planet. The ships were simply not intended to recover their fighters after combat, the goal was to get troops and supplies to the surface and then go back to the staging areas for more.

The Shadow Chronicles movie basically ignored the problem entirely except for on the new ship designs that were intended to be carried forward in subsequent titles (the Ark Angel and Icarus). The concept/production art for those two offers us a relatively clear indication of how those ships were meant to recover aircraft. The Ark Angel appears to have a runway on the dorsal hull leading to a hangar, and the Icarus seems to use the "landing tunnel" approach seen early in the Macross Saga.

Neither of which says that they can't recover mecha....just that they can't do it the way that you would prefer (landing like regular airplanes on a modern aircraft carrier).
Nor does your personal opinion that they are 'obviously' one way proof that they ARE that way. This response also begs my question...My point was that we do not see all possible landings and recoveries of all possible mecha in the other portions of the series, and yet we do not question that it is possible. No one questions that battle pods can be recovered by all Zentradi craft that launch them, even though we have not seen such, why then should we question that THESE ships can recover them simply because we have not seen it.
Put simply, once again lack of proof is not proof of lack.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:That still doesn't make it relevant beyond the fact that it provides inspiration to those who write the actual canon. This isn't Mosspedia, or Macross, or what ever.....so material from those shows has no bearing on the official details of this show, unless and until such material is ported over and canonized by HG.

The OSM is always relevant, because it dictates the content of the animation and Harmony Gold relies on it more or less as the top arbiter of what's what for stats and the like. There are deviations, some of which are obviously the result of errors either due to a physical impossibility or obvious mismatch to what's shown, but by in large the OSM stands above everything else.

However the OSM material itself is not relevant in and of itself. Especially if one is trying to use some of the supplemental material from the other shows to try and trump the official canon for this show....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Only if there are non-human ships in the fleet though.....so either there are other ships in the fleet to carry them, or the mecha go on human ships....

We know the few alien soldiers in the UEEF operated from human ships, but we also know they operated from the older, much larger ships that much more readily accommodate something like a Bioroid or a Battle pod (e.g. a Tokugawa-class ship). They aren't a thing after Breetai's unit is wiped out, though, so the point is rather moot.

Wait....so your saying that even though the human ships were designed at a time when they had non-human forces, and that those forces used non-human mecha....that because the non-human forces were wiped out AFTER they were designed....that the ships could not possibly have been built with the idea of carrying those mecha?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Um no. The safest conclusion is that we have been shown two possible configurations. That is what the word 'includes' means. If there are only two configurations then it could not 'include' its only other option.

All we have is a statement that there are possibly other configurations, no specifics as to what those configurations are... guessing wildly without supporting evidence is not a safe assumption, or the basis for a logical argument.
We are not guessing what the configurations are though. We are stating that there ARE other configurations. That there are other configurations is not in doubt, since the wording of the statement clearly says that they exist. We may not know what they are, but we can not simply say that they do not exist either.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:The Art of the Shadow Chronicles provides the size. Since it was done by the people doing the animation, it presumably is correct.

Um... that's actually a false statement.

The The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles book was not written by the people who did the animation, it was written by fans (mostly copypasta from the Infopedia's demonstrably faulty article). None of the animation staff from DR Movie were credited with contribution to the printed content of the book.

Mind you, analysis of the CG models via the HD release of the OVA indicates that the ships are actually sized wrongly for their RT stats... they're far too small. Larger than the OSM spec, but still closer to that than to the stats in the book. We're talking around 400m for an Ikazuchi, and maybe 100-110m for a Garfish. They're also off in terms of proportions, with both classes of ship being somewhat less tall relative to their length. Harmony Gold seems to be aware of this, and adjusted the image on their site's size comparison, but did not adjust the dimensions in the text.

Okay. I was under the impression that the Art book was produced by HG. Regardless though, it is listed by HG as primary canon. This means that....it is canon.
As canon for the Robotech franchise it trumps any fan's personal size analysis of the relative ship sizes. It also trumps any suplimental material for any other shows (the so called non-robotech 'OSM').
The only thing that would trump it would be an actual statement from HG.

eliakon wrote:Neither of which says that they can't recover mecha....just that they can't do it the way that you would prefer (landing like regular airplanes on a modern aircraft carrier).

Strictly speaking, it's actually "the way Tommy would prefer"... he's the one who decided how fighters are recovered.

eliakon wrote:Nor does your personal opinion that they are 'obviously' one way proof that they ARE that way.

In the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary, and the fact that "my personal opinion" is firmly based on the work of the people who actually created the material...

eliakon wrote:Put simply, once again lack of proof is not proof of lack.

Firm evidence that the preferred method is nigh-impossible, coupled with a complete lack of proof to the contrary is proof of lack.

eliakon wrote:However the OSM material itself is not relevant in and of itself. Especially if one is trying to use some of the supplemental material from the other shows to try and trump the official canon for this show....

Tell that to Harmony Gold, they're quite happy to continue letting the OSM trump what's in the show... and until they change THEIR tune on it, my approach isn't just perfectly valid, it's creator-endorsed!

eliakon wrote:Wait....so your saying that even though the human ships were designed at a time when they had non-human forces, and that those forces used non-human mecha....that because the non-human forces were wiped out AFTER they were designed....that the ships could not possibly have been built with the idea of carrying those mecha?

Not quite... I'm saying that human ships were designed at a time when there were non-human forces present in VERY SMALL (read: "insignificant") numbers, and were therefore not a consideration in the design of the UEEF's standard warships, and that those VERY few non-human forces were assigned to older, pre-existing models of ship which were better suited to their special needs. That IS what the material shows us. Full stop.

EDIT: It's worth noting that, while canon material shows us alien forces serving on human ships were profoundly rare, the RPG does do its own thing and makes them more widespread while also including Tirolians, who are not part of the UEEF in canon. Even so, it seems reasonable they would also have been assigned to the older ships better able to accommodate their mecha without any major modification (e.g. Tokugawa-class carriers).

eliakon wrote:We are not guessing what the configurations are though. We are stating that there ARE other configurations. That there are other configurations is not in doubt, since the wording of the statement clearly says that they exist. We may not know what they are, but we can not simply say that they do not exist either.

Exactly. We know other configurations exist, but we don't know what they are. Therefore we cannot safely assume that there is a specialist configuration for deploying ground forces.

eliakon wrote:Okay. I was under the impression that the Art book was produced by HG. Regardless though, it is listed by HG as primary canon. This means that....it is canon.

Rather a mistaken impression, I'm afraid... the art book was written by fans, and published via a (borderline vanity press) publisher with Tommy Yune's name slapped on it.

It's also worth noting that Harmony Gold's staff only did the rough design, all of the refinement and production coordination was by DR Movie (which, you'll note, is why the notations on the production art are in Korean rather than Japanese or English).

Also, the bit about Harmony Gold supposedly listing it as "primary canon" is an interesting distortion of the facts, which completely fails to capture its actual standing. As a reference for a secondary continuity source, the book itself is also secondary continuity... the information therein is trumped by the series materials in the event of conflict. Series materials happens to include production materials... which is why the OSM carries so much weight at Harmony Gold.

eliakon wrote:As canon for the Robotech franchise it trumps any fan's personal size analysis of the relative ship sizes. It also trumps any suplimental material for any other shows (the so called non-robotech 'OSM').
The only thing that would trump it would be an actual statement from HG.

This statement is inconsistent with Harmony Gold's own sourcing practices, I'm afraid... your personal opinion does not overturn the practices of the people responsible for the material.

Seto wrote:Given the visuals in question, and Tommy's comments on the design, the approach appears to have been planned as being more or less the same as the Prometheus's... land on a landing strip, taxi into an elevator or hangar bay.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. There is no need for a Prometheus's approach though. Actually there never was even in TMS saga.

Seto wrote:Provided the tunnel is big enough... the ones we see in Shadow Chronicles are not, not by a long shot. They're barely large enough to permit the departure of an Alpha in fighter mode. The landing areas shown in the other two sagas are much roomier... less chance of an abrupt introduction of the cockpit to a wall.

No the tunnels are large enough, they aren't as large as previous eras (relative), but they do have enough room on all four sides in terms of clearance.

Seto wrote:Strictly speaking, we don't actually SEE Zentradi ships recovering mecha directly... we see the mecha fly off to the ships, but we're never shown them actually landing on it, with the sole exception of VF-1s landing on the ship's dorsal hull and taking an elevator to the hangar.

They definitely imply it though. We know Lisa's Cat's Eye was recovered by a Recovery Pod (we don't see it land, but we know the pair entered the ship, not to mention Vermilion's rescue attempt), and the Re-Entry Pods recovered Regults for the express purpose of retrieval. Not to mention Khyron and his numerous deployments. So we don't see it, but it is strongly implied to have occurred.

Seto wrote:But we have nothing to suggest the Garfish-class is used for transporting anything other than small arms, ammunition for the small arms, and other human-scale supplies in the internal cargo holds. Large cargo or ammunition would be better suited to the Horizonts, which can cut a cargo pod loose if something goes awry.

We have nothing to suggest it can't either. We know the Garfish is supposed to capable of being configured for a variety of missions of which only a few are even mentioned.

There is no proof that the Horizon-T's would be better suited than a Garfish to transport large cargo from the animation, the only thing the Horizon's actually transport are Cyclones by all indications.

Seto wrote:The Ikazuchi-class with the launch bays would be the logical choice, considering the Condor is a non-transformable mecha and that the Ikazuchi's bays won't fit a Conbat. The most logical assumption is that the battloid-specific bays on the Ikazuchi carried the Condors, and the Garfish-class ships carried the accompanying Conbats. The Ikazuchi-class isn't suited to the task of planetary landing, so having the Garfish-class ships accompany the mecha down would be the obvious choice.

The problem with the Ikazuchi's bays in question is they are only known to be configured for an Alpha. And Alphas are much smaller than Condors (which are closer to the Beta) per the sizes in the 2E RPG.

Alpha Battloid: 8.75m x 5.25m x 4.84m
Condor Battloid: 12.8m x 6.3m x 6.3m

Seto wrote:Considering that it's established that the Zentradi were few in number, and principally operating other mecha until the relatively late adoption of the Bioroid Interceptor, and the expressed rarity of aliens fighting alongside the UEEF in RTSC, the odds of human small ships having to accommodate the Bioroids are slim at best.

I agree the odds are slim, but size wise if it can fit an Alpha Battloid or Condor it should have no issues fitting a Bioroid (it is in the low20ft class, Condor is in the 40ft class, and the Alpha is near 30ft). The Bioroid is only on the list because it is in the UEEF inventory and large (compared to the Cyclone/Silverback), probablity of use was not a consideration for the list I generated.

Seto wrote:Until we have evidence a specific configuration exists for that role, the safest assumption from the evidence is to assume that there isn't one and that what we've been shown already IS the proper configuration for the role.

I have to disagree here. We know the Garfish is used for the roles, so it is a safer assumption from the evidence/information to assume that they have one (externally it doesn't have to be distinct).

Seto wrote:The interior of the modular pod, perhaps... nothing has been said WRT the modularity of the ship's interior.

I agree the bulk of the interior is likely more fixed, but that doesn't mean they can't install seats, hardware, or even floors and walls (or dividers if you prefer) for a given mission in the large central hold.

Seto wrote:Bring me evidence of other hatches or ramps sufficient to the task, and we can consider it, but in the absence of evidence...

As I have said, the markings on the mid-ship collar are used elsewhere to indicate doors/hatches or other wise movable structures. We don't see those marking for everything that meets that criteria, but all the known instances of that marking away from the Garfish are consistent in that regard. The safest assumption then is that the markings on the Garfish mean the same thing as in those other places (Cyclone, non-shadow Alphas, Horizon interior bridge Door, Icarus's hangar door per line art, etc).

Seto wrote:The animation doesn't support the Infopedia's contention about the Garfish-class's size, but one must assume that since this is also been upgraded to an interstellar ship instead of merely an interplanetary one, that corresponding increases have been made in accommodations for crew, life support, fuel, power generation, etc. which would lay claim to substantial internal space.

And the Infopedia's size is repeated in the AotSC. While there should be increases in those areas, it also means that the available hold should also see an increase. A hold we can't even agree on the size of, all we know is it is large and centrally placed (which to me would include the collar).

Seto wrote:Therein lies one of the significant problems with trying to reinvent the Mars Colony fleets from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA as your normal, long-duration space fleet... the designs very obviously don't support basic things like that. It's a huge problem from a logical standpoint.

Not necessarily. It really depends on how they want to go about it. For self-deployment the main shift that is required is the inclusion of an FTL system, otherwise they can remain fairly similar (given the short range origins though, they would need a to include support/re-supply ship design). If they aren't set on a self-deployment approach, they could turn the N-S missiles into "motherships" for them (baseline, not the retro-fitted) carrying multiple ships, allowing the two ship classes to retain their "Intra-Stellar" class but highly usable for "inter-stellar" missions.

Recovery operations are still possible, even from a GCM standpoint since they had to get the mecha inside the ships somehow. Recovery procedures can be based on that, or other real procedures. There really isn't any reason to assume the ships are incapable of recovery.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Neither of which says that they can't recover mecha....just that they can't do it the way that you would prefer (landing like regular airplanes on a modern aircraft carrier).

Strictly speaking, it's actually "the way Tommy would prefer"... he's the one who decided how fighters are recovered.

And do you have a citation from him that says either that they are not recoverable, or that they land in a certain way?
Because otherwise you are simply speculating on how they are recovered.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Nor does your personal opinion that they are 'obviously' one way proof that they ARE that way.

In the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary, and the fact that "my personal opinion" is firmly based on the work of the people who actually created the material...

Except that these statements aren't actually TRUE.
There isn't anything in the animation or the texts that says what the 'preferred way' is. There is nothing in the canon that says how the mecha are recovered. Thus its pure speculation how it works. Thus any statement that its impossible requires speculating on the way it works.....I am not saying that your opinion is not grounded in an analyses of the OSM materials for Mosspedia....but that is not a canon source for Robotech...

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Put simply, once again lack of proof is not proof of lack.

Firm evidence that the preferred method is nigh-impossible, coupled with a complete lack of proof to the contrary is proof of lack.

Except that
1) you have provided no proof that this 'preferred method' exists
2) Again a logical fallacy. Especially when the affirmative claim is that there is no proof either way.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:However the OSM material itself is not relevant in and of itself. Especially if one is trying to use some of the supplemental material from the other shows to try and trump the official canon for this show....

Tell that to Harmony Gold, they're quite happy to continue letting the OSM trump what's in the show... and until they change THEIR tune on it, my approach isn't just perfectly valid, it's creator-endorsed!

Except that its not. The official canon does not list this so called 'OSM' as a source. (unless you can provide a statement from HG to the contrary of course). They do use it yes. But its not listed anywhere as an official source.
That sort of means, by definition, that it is not an official source. Just one that is popular with those who right the official sources. There is a HUGE difference.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Wait....so your saying that even though the human ships were designed at a time when they had non-human forces, and that those forces used non-human mecha....that because the non-human forces were wiped out AFTER they were designed....that the ships could not possibly have been built with the idea of carrying those mecha?

Not quite... I'm saying that human ships were designed at a time when there were non-human forces present in VERY SMALL (read: "insignificant") numbers, and were therefore not a consideration in the design of the UEEF's standard warships, and that those VERY few non-human forces were assigned to older, pre-existing models of ship which were better suited to their special needs. That IS what the material shows us. Full stop.

EDIT: It's worth noting that, while canon material shows us alien forces serving on human ships were profoundly rare, the RPG does do its own thing and makes them more widespread while also including Tirolians, who are not part of the UEEF in canon. Even so, it seems reasonable they would also have been assigned to the older ships better able to accommodate their mecha without any major modification (e.g. Tokugawa-class carriers).

DO you have a specific citation for the claim that they were 'profoundly rare' or that their numbers were 'insignificant'. Not just an inference but an actual statement of fact? Otherwise its simply your opinion that this is so....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:We are not guessing what the configurations are though. We are stating that there ARE other configurations. That there are other configurations is not in doubt, since the wording of the statement clearly says that they exist. We may not know what they are, but we can not simply say that they do not exist either.

Exactly. We know other configurations exist, but we don't know what they are. Therefore we cannot safely assume that there is a specialist configuration for deploying ground forces.

True, but that is different than your previous claim that there could not be such a version because these two were the only possible configurations.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Okay. I was under the impression that the Art book was produced by HG. Regardless though, it is listed by HG as primary canon. This means that....it is canon.

Rather a mistaken impression, I'm afraid... the art book was written by fans, and published via a (borderline vanity press) publisher with Tommy Yune's name slapped on it.

It's also worth noting that Harmony Gold's staff only did the rough design, all of the refinement and production coordination was by DR Movie (which, you'll note, is why the notations on the production art are in Korean rather than Japanese or English).

Also, the bit about Harmony Gold supposedly listing it as "primary canon" is an interesting distortion of the facts, which completely fails to capture its actual standing. As a reference for a secondary continuity source, the book itself is also secondary continuity... the information therein is trumped by the series materials in the event of conflict. Series materials happens to include production materials... which is why the OSM carries so much weight at Harmony Gold.

Really? Because the HG site only says that the animation is canon. It says nothing anywhere about 'production materials from the source shows'
Or put another way, your contention that the materials from the source shows out weighs the listed canon is not actually supported by the official statements of HG.
The show =/= Production notes for the unconverted show.
The art book IS listed though as secondary canon. Which means that it is more official than say.....a fans interpretation of something

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:As canon for the Robotech franchise it trumps any fan's personal size analysis of the relative ship sizes. It also trumps any suplimental material for any other shows (the so called non-robotech 'OSM').
The only thing that would trump it would be an actual statement from HG.

This statement is inconsistent with Harmony Gold's own sourcing practices, I'm afraid... your personal opinion does not overturn the practices of the people responsible for the material.

Actually it IS consistent with their policy
They have a list of canon sources, and their levels of authority. The art book is on the list where as I do not see 'fans personal and unsourced analysis of the show' anywhere.

ShadowLogan wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree then. There is no need for a Prometheus's approach though. Actually there never was even in TMS saga.

Considering, as we both know, that the Shadow Chronicles was making a concerted effort to be as Macross-like as was possible without provoking a lawsuit, is it really that surprising that Tommy would employ the Macross carrier recovery type?

It does have one significant advantage... there's less chance of a crash and the aircraft can land in fighter mode by coasting down across a gravitational gradient instead of having to land in GERWALK/guardian mode (which they never were clear on how they got them back into fighter mode from there for storage).

ShadowLogan wrote:No the tunnels are large enough, they aren't as large as previous eras (relative), but they do have enough room on all four sides in terms of clearance.

There's at most 2-3 feet of clearance on either side... it's not impossible, but it's dangerous enough to be wildly impractical by any reasonable estimation. If the bays were wider, or if there was just a single one the size of the whole collection, I'd be in total agreement that a landing that way is feasible.

ShadowLogan wrote:They definitely imply it though.

I know, but we never SEE it so we don't know how they do it. (Curiously, this is something that Macross has never shown...)

ShadowLogan wrote:We have nothing to suggest it can't either. We know the Garfish is supposed to capable of being configured for a variety of missions of which only a few are even mentioned.

True, but in the absence of evidence to counter the argument that ammunition and volatile supplies were shipped in safer conditions aboard a Horizont...

ShadowLogan wrote:There is no proof that the Horizon-T's would be better suited than a Garfish to transport large cargo from the animation, the only thing the Horizon's actually transport are Cyclones by all indications.

Well, except for the fact that the art and show clearly illustrate that the Horizont was the go-to platform for transporting mecha or bulk cargo... something the Infopedia tells us was the MOST COMMON application of the Horizont, quite literally describing it as the workhorse of the REF and devoting most of its coverage to a description of cargo operations.

ShadowLogan wrote:The problem with the Ikazuchi's bays in question is they are only known to be configured for an Alpha. And Alphas are much smaller than Condors (which are closer to the Beta) per the sizes in the 2E RPG.

I think the 2E RPG's sizes are off, to be honest... in the OSM, the AS-C03 Condor and AFC-01 Legioss were very close in size, being that the former was a direct design predecessor of the latter. But for the cockpit area, an animation-correct Condor should fit very well into an Ikazuchi's launch bays. Palladium's numbers may be going from the early draft version when it was called NB-1.

ShadowLogan wrote:I have to disagree here. We know the Garfish is used for the roles, so it is a safer assumption from the evidence/information to assume that they have one (externally it doesn't have to be distinct).

We know the Garfish-class is periodically used for the role, but the only evidence we have shows a normal fighter module-equipped Garfish doing the job...

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree the bulk of the interior is likely more fixed, but that doesn't mean they can't install seats, hardware, or even floors and walls (or dividers if you prefer) for a given mission in the large central hold.

True, though in the interests of logistics I'd expect them to keep crew and cargo separate (in case the worst occurs and stuff starts sliding around the hold), and simply tie down any large vehicles to hooks in the deck plating the way fighters are tied down in rough seas.

ShadowLogan wrote:And the Infopedia's size is repeated in the AotSC. While there should be increases in those areas, it also means that the available hold should also see an increase.

In all likelihood, the hold space no longer exist in RTSC's version... having been replaced by the synchro cannon system.

eliakon wrote:And do you have a citation from him that says either that they are not recoverable, or that they land in a certain way?
Because otherwise you are simply speculating on how they are recovered.

Please refer to earlier remarks WRT AotSC, which offers clues to UEEF recovery proceedures... for which the ships in question lack the necessary design features.

eliakon wrote:There isn't anything in the animation or the texts that says what the 'preferred way' is.

Kindly refer to the above for why your statement is wrong.

eliakon wrote:Except that its not. The official canon does not list this so called 'OSM' as a source. (unless you can provide a statement from HG to the contrary of course).

They've been using it as a primary source in all Robotech publications since the reboot in 2001... and their description of the sourcing practices for the Infopedia they've given clearly indicates the OSM is a top tier source.

eliakon wrote:DO you have a specific citation for the claim that they were 'profoundly rare' or that their numbers were 'insignificant'. Not just an inference but an actual statement of fact? Otherwise its simply your opinion that this is so....

Just throwin' this out there, but you DO know that the Zentradi are the only aliens ever depicted as UEEF soldiers, and that it's been part of Robotech lore for almost 30 years that they were virtually wiped out in the First Robotech War's bloody conclusion and the few survivors served in a single unit under Breetai, right? The unit we see get wiped out in Prelude...

eliakon wrote:Really? Because the HG site only says that the animation is canon. It says nothing anywhere about 'production materials from the source shows'

That too, is an inaccurate statement... they don't use the word "canon" on the FAQ, and are only talking about story continuity on the article in question.

Misrepresentation of the evidence will not make your point valid.


EDIT: Fixed misattributed quotes.

eliakon wrote:And do you have a citation from him that says either that they are not recoverable, or that they land in a certain way?
Because otherwise you are simply speculating on how they are recovered.

Please refer to earlier remarks WRT AotSC, which offers clues to UEEF recovery proceedures... for which the ships in question lack the necessary design features.[/quote]
So in other words....it is a speculation on how it works, based on one interpretation of one label of one feature in one picture....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:There isn't anything in the animation or the texts that says what the 'preferred way' is.

Kindly refer to the above for why your statement is wrong.

Not really. There isn't anything in there that says that they are recovered this way.
(fixed your quote attribution again)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Except that its not. The official canon does not list this so called 'OSM' as a source. (unless you can provide a statement from HG to the contrary of course).

They've been using it as a primary source in all Robotech publications since the reboot in 2001... and their description of the sourcing practices for the Infopedia they've given clearly indicates the OSM is a top tier source.

Can you cite this? Because again the official site does not mention this material. I am a wee bit hesitant to take one persons word that something is, in fact canon simply because they say that it is so....especially when its not cited, and the citations of what IS canon do not mention it. (fixed your quote attribution)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:DO you have a specific citation for the claim that they were 'profoundly rare' or that their numbers were 'insignificant'. Not just an inference but an actual statement of fact? Otherwise its simply your opinion that this is so....

Just throwin' this out there, but you DO know that the Zentradi are the only aliens ever depicted as UEEF soldiers, and that it's been part of Robotech lore for almost 30 years that they were virtually wiped out in the First Robotech War's bloody conclusion and the few survivors served in a single unit under Breetai, right? The unit we see get wiped out in Prelude...

That is not what you claimed. Nor is it exactly relevant. The claim that they are 'profoundly rare', and 'insignificant' and thus can not be at all relevant would require some sort of citation. Otherwise then the fact that there demonstrably were alien forces (Zentradi and Bioroids) is a perfectly valid line of inquiry. (fixed your quote attribution again)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

eliakon wrote:Really? Because the HG site only says that the animation is canon. It says nothing anywhere about 'production materials from the source shows'

That too, is an inaccurate statement... they don't use the word "canon" on the FAQ, and are only talking about story continuity on the article in question.

Misrepresentation of the evidence will not make your point valid.

It is what it is. The only material that is given any validity is the listed materials. These purported 'OSM' materials are NOT listed, and thus they are not considered part of HGs official continuity (which is, the definition of canon btw)
(Oh, and I fixed your quote attribution again)

eliakon wrote:It is what it is. The only material that is given any validity is the listed materials.

It is what it is... and what it is is not what you claim it to be.

What it is is nothing more or less than a statement that, in the event of continuity conflicts between the series and any subsequent narrative material. The concepts of continuity and canon are related, but not interchangeable, hence your error. What Harmony Gold has said on Robotech.com is that, in the event a story contradicts events in the series, the series takes priority over anything produced later story-wise.

Harmony Gold's canon policy is not actually discussed on their website, and usually only comes up in interviews and the occasional discussion panel question. As of the last time they talked about it, the OSM was still considered a valid and authoritative source of information for Robotech. Their enthusiasm for following it has occasionally gone too far, though, and resulted in the official Infopedia and RPG mistakenly adding equipment that is from sequels with no relation to Robotech (because Macross fan sites generally do not distinguish between the TV and DYRL versions of the VF-1 for in-universe reasons).

My apologies for the quote attribution problem, I have a bad habit of cheating out the quote blocks with CTRL-V.

Seto wrote:Considering, as we both know, that the Shadow Chronicles was making a concerted effort to be as Macross-like as was possible without provoking a lawsuit, is it really that surprising that Tommy would employ the Macross carrier recovery type?

It does have one significant advantage... there's less chance of a crash and the aircraft can land in fighter mode by coasting down across a gravitational gradient instead of having to land in GERWALK/guardian mode (which they never were clear on how they got them back into fighter mode from there for storage)

TY's employment of the approach should be. It is quite clear that the Macross-like approach, at least in RT, was abandoned.

If there was a thick enough atmosphere on the hull, I could see that working. In a practical vacuum, I just don't see it working. What you are basically saying is that the Space Shuttle could land on the Moon safely if we put a runway there. That just is not the case though. About the only reason I could see emulating naval carrier aviation is for emergency landings (net/arrestor cables) and the catapult to save propellant (though in full disclosure here, I'd have to do the math and assume the value imparted by the catapult. I've done that in the past, and IMHO it just was not worth the extra hassle).

As for recovery they certainly have options.

Seto wrote:There's at most 2-3 feet of clearance on either side... it's not impossible, but it's dangerous enough to be wildly impractical by any reasonable estimation. If the bays were wider, or if there was just a single one the size of the whole collection, I'd be in total agreement that a landing that way is feasible.

2-3ft in what mode though? The danger is more in the velocity used than the actual size IMHO. I would also point out that per Roy in Ep1 "they will pass within just a few yards of one another. Robotechnology makes such precision possible." While 2-3ft on either side can equates to a few yards (2yards or 6ft minimum is what Roy is describing) in total, so a Robotech mecha has the precision necessary to fly that thight. Plus given the odd alt-configs associated with G mode (not just the armless version, but there is a legs less one instead that also sported folded up wings), one can give the pilot additional room.

A wider bay would simply allow one to retrieve multiple units at one time (as we see in Ep3), though you can get the same effect by using multiple separated bays which we see.

Are we sure it works out to 2-3ft per side? Officially we are told the Garfish is 59m wide. There are 3 bays, so each bay is potentially 59/3=19.667m wide. Since we have hull and wall thickness to consider, lets cut 25% off (which might be to much IMHO, but lets go with it). That leaves 14.75m per bay with hull/walls accounted for. An Alpha only has an 8.2m wingspan. That gives ~6.5m of space total or 3.25m/~10ft per side (to lazy to do the conversion right now, but its ballpark IINM). That's much more than the 2-3ft you claim on one side (4-6ft total). At least when we use the officially stated size of the Garfish. We only get into the 2-3ft range if we cut that space in half for walls and hull.

Seto wrote:True, but in the absence of evidence to counter the argument that ammunition and volatile supplies were shipped in safer conditions aboard a Horizont...

I don't think the Horizon-T could provide any safer conditions than what is on a Garfish.

Seto wrote:I think the 2E RPG's sizes are off, to be honest... in the OSM, the AS-C03 Condor and AFC-01 Legioss were very close in size, being that the former was a direct design predecessor of the latter. But for the cockpit area, an animation-correct Condor should fit very well into an Ikazuchi's launch bays. Palladium's numbers may be going from the early draft version when it was called NB-1.

Well from the animation itself there is nothing to get a sense of scale with reliably. Even in the comic (#4) perspective always seems to be skewing things when there is reference objects to use. So absent some other official RT material, I'll go with the 2E RPG given it is supposed to be a competitor to the Beta (per 2E RPG again), which means it likely is similarly sized.

Seto wrote:True, though in the interests of logistics I'd expect them to keep crew and cargo separate (in case the worst occurs and stuff starts sliding around the hold), and simply tie down any large vehicles to hooks in the deck plating the way fighters are tied down in rough seas.

But it also means that the Garfish we see, could have segmented the cargo hold up and we possibly wouldn't even know/be able to tell. Separating crew/passengers and cargo makes sense, but they could do that with dividers and temporary wall/floor/ceiling to maximize transport ability (put in a second level, for troops if the cargo isn't going to go to the ceiling and there is sufficient clearance for example).

Seto wrote:In all likelihood, the hold space no longer exist in RTSC's version... having been replaced by the synchro cannon system.

Well likely never know, but what we do know is the hold space is supposed to be centrally located, the synchro cannon system is more center-forward to forward. Said system might also be one of (and/or based on) those additional variants we are told are out there, but not discussed by TPTB.

eliakon wrote:Really? Because the HG site only says that the animation is canon. It says nothing anywhere about 'production materials from the source shows'
Or put another way, your contention that the materials from the source shows out weighs the listed canon is not actually supported by the official statements of HG.
The show =/= Production notes for the unconverted show.
The art book IS listed though as secondary canon. Which means that it is more official than say.....a fans interpretation of something

What Seto is alluding to though, is that HG essentially says one thing, but in practice they do something else.

ShadowLogan wrote:TY's employment of the approach should be. It is quite clear that the Macross-like approach, at least in RT, was abandoned.

Except, of course, for the slight fact that we know it hasn't been abandoned... they're still using both Macross approaches up to the "present day" in Robotech.

ShadowLogan wrote:If there was a thick enough atmosphere on the hull, I could see that working. In a practical vacuum, I just don't see it working. What you are basically saying is that the Space Shuttle could land on the Moon safely if we put a runway there.

Not quite... the gravitational field used for carrier landings in the original Macross and many of its sequels is very compressed, and the closer you get to the deck the more the gravitational pull increases. Combined with light braking force from the verniers on the VF that're pretty much specifically designed for deceleration, it makes reasonable sense.

Your analogy of landing on the moon if we put a runway there doesn't quite line up, because the moon's gravitational field is far and away larger, as well as weaker at the point of wheels-down. You don't get that sudden imposition of a downward force combined with the gradual increase in gravitational pull.

ShadowLogan wrote:2-3ft in what mode though?

Fighter. We see them exit the launch tunnel in fighter mode and it's barely big enough for the plane... guardian or battloid is right out, because the craft would not fit.

ShadowLogan wrote:The danger is more in the velocity used than the actual size IMHO. I would also point out that per Roy in Ep1 "they will pass within just a few yards of one another. Robotechnology makes such precision possible."

That's stunt-flying, and they had plenty of room to pull away from each other if something went wrong (literally 270 degrees open to get away from a crash). There is no such option when you're flying into a tunnel barely big enough to fit the fighter. If you're off by just a few degrees, you'll plant a wing in a bulkhead and then you're just so much debris spraying down the hallway.

ShadowLogan wrote:Are we sure it works out to 2-3ft per side? Officially we are told the Garfish is 59m wide. There are 3 bays, so each bay is potentially 59/3=19.667m wide. Since we have hull and wall thickness to consider, lets cut 25% off (which might be to much IMHO, but lets go with it).

Barring the known animation error that shows much larger bays and an anomalous number of fighters launching, the bays are shown to be fairly tight quarters when open. Not nearly as bad as the tunnels on the Ikazuchi though... which were more what I was referring to when I was talking about the sheer impracticality of the approach. For the Garfish, it's more a matter of having no space to maneuver inside the hangar (or the risk of a smash-up because the planes are simply lined up in there for launch).

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think the Horizon-T could provide any safer conditions than what is on a Garfish.

Being able to cut a pod loose if something goes wrong is SUBSTANTIALLY safer.

ShadowLogan wrote:Well from the animation itself there is nothing to get a sense of scale with reliably. Even in the comic (#4) perspective always seems to be skewing things when there is reference objects to use. So absent some other official RT material, I'll go with the 2E RPG given it is supposed to be a competitor to the Beta (per 2E RPG again), which means it likely is similarly sized.

Unfortunately yeah, because the Condor is a backstory mecha and there is no official spec for it in canon, it's a choice between two equally valid choices... the unofficial spec in the RPG, or the not-confirmed OSM rough spec. Tommy's art style is not helping, but I'm inclined to go with the OSM on the basis of the obvious design commonalities between the Condor and Alpha.

ShadowLogan wrote:What Seto is alluding to though, is that HG essentially says one thing, but in practice they do something else.

Bingo.

In before the lock...