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While I do think that colonies would get things on the cheap (especially something that has been in service as long as the Alpha air frame) so going with UEEF units would make sense (with Fusion conversion, of course), this is a discussion about Macross II mecha in Robotech, and if one wanted to fit them in, how would they do it?

That being said, I think independent colonies would be fine. Just because the UEEF is short on brain power doesn't mean the rest of the human race is. An incredibly rich bandit could have sponsored it in wishing to establish some legitimacy. It could be a group like some that have been theorized before (like the Pacific group...confederacy...PAC something, i don't remember the name but it was a cool idea), or it could be a colony group that left waaaaay back shortly after the SDF-1's launch (make it up...atfter all, a group like that would probably keep developing Valkyrie models anyway).

I think that idea is the best, as they wouldn't have had any of the earth shattering events to slow them down. They would know about earth's woes and ill-fortune, but they wouldn't have been able to really do anything about it. So they would have developed their own stuff over time and eventally come to the VF-2SS. Seems fine to me.

ShadowLogan wrote:The UEEF manufacturing was certainly up to the task, the only mecha I can find for the RPG continuity that was a burden in this respect was the VR-041 Cyclone. [...] There is nothing about being a burden to produce for the Conbat, Condor, Alpha, Beta, or other platforms (at a glance).

I'm not sure if you're trying to move the bar, or you're just not getting my point.

We're not talking about units for which continued manufacture has become a burden... we're talking the fact that, in several cases, the UEEF was either unwilling or unable to keep up with the maintenance of its mecha while operating in the field. We know they pushed for the Alpha because their stocks of VF-1s were low and manufacturing more apparently wasn't an option even though the VF-1 is superior by far to the Alpha. UEEF brass pushed for the revival of the Beta program to address the Alpha's shortcomings and, per the RPG, as a replacement for the fleet of Conbat space fighters they apparently couldn't properly maintain in the field (as the book cites a growing number of losses due to mechanical failures and fatigue).

The UEEF has a habit of continuing to use platforms long after their flaws have made using them a "logistical nightmare" (the book's term, not mine), and continue operating them until they're literally ready to fall apart. The Alpha platform's almost as old as the Conbat was when it was retired, and the few attempts to fix that platform's significant design flaws have largely fallen flat and left the VF/A-6 more a liability than an asset... particularly in light of the Haydonite problem.

ShadowLogan wrote:They had captured Robotech Factory Satellites (several), any one of which would be enough for the UEEF manufacturing capacity. [...]

If those satellites were up to the job, why is the UEEF fleet operating so dangerously undermanned during the Battle of Reflex Point... and why did they need outside help from multiple alien races to handle preparation for the adoption of shadow technology?

ShadowLogan wrote:That still doesn't mean they are going to have the capacity at the colony or there are enough personnel to go around to all the colonies AND the UEEF AND the UEDF-ASC with the necessary skills to design highly complex mecha.

If the colonies were intended to be self-sufficient, and they'd better be since they'd have been cut off from any kind of help for approximately twenty years, and any kind of meaningful resupply for at least ten, they'd have the resources necessary to embark on a new development program. Especially since the VF-2SS is an obvious derivative of the VF-1 platform, rather than an (unsuccessful) attempt at reinventing the wheel. A great deal less effort is involved in new development if you have a reliable and tested platform to start from, and you don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Alrik Vas wrote:While I do think that colonies would get things on the cheap (especially something that has been in service as long as the Alpha air frame) so going with UEEF units would make sense (with Fusion conversion, of course), this is a discussion about Macross II mecha in Robotech, and if one wanted to fit them in, how would they do it?

Not necessarily... the colonies, if they exist, would have been established VERY early on, meaning before the majority of the later mecha were even introduced. The UEG put the brakes on its colony program right after hostilities in space opened up, meaning there's only a window of a few years for that settlement to be taking place. That window is, by in large, BEFORE the large-scale adoption of almost any of the mecha that appear during the 2nd and 3rd Wars. The colonies would've likely been armed with VF-1's and Destroids that'd been surplussed out of the UEG military to make way for new introductions like the Logan, Conbat, and the Alpha's test unit. That'd give them a logical (and ideal) starting point to develop something independently that's of the same design school as the original units while cut off from Earth and the UEEF.

Not necessarily... the colonies, if they exist, would have been established VERY early on, meaning before the majority of the later mecha were even introduced. The UEG put the brakes on its colony program right after hostilities in space opened up, meaning there's only a window of a few years for that settlement to be taking place. That window is, by in large, BEFORE the large-scale adoption of almost any of the mecha that appear during the 2nd and 3rd Wars. The colonies would've likely been armed with VF-1's and Destroids that'd been surplussed out of the UEG military to make way for new introductions like the Logan, Conbat, and the Alpha's test unit. That'd give them a logical (and ideal) starting point to develop something independently that's of the same design school as the original units while cut off from Earth and the UEEF.[/quote]

Seto you do know the whole colony thing's just something I made up for my Alt project and game. It's not really canon unless Yune pulls a fast one on us.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Not necessarily... the colonies, if they exist, would have been established VERY early on, meaning before the majority of the later mecha were even introduced. The UEG put the brakes on its colony program right after hostilities in space opened up, meaning there's only a window of a few years for that settlement to be taking place.

Art of Shadow Chronicles says it was after the 2nd Robotech war that Space became to dangerous for unarmed colony ships... That's a near 17 year period to expand. Prelude is set in the 2040's and Louie says the Angle-class ships are being mothballed since the New ark-angles are being built... after the Pioneer mission ended...

That window is, by in large, BEFORE the large-scale adoption of almost any of the mecha that appear during the 2nd and 3rd Wars.

The VF-6 Alpha was introduced before the REF/UEEF left, appearing as a protoype in 2015. The Spartas in 2011, Logan in 2018.
Forces Returning form Deep Space before the Fall of Earth to the Invid Returned with AJax....

Alrik Vas wrote: this is a discussion about Macross II mecha in Robotech, and if one wanted to fit them in, how would they do it?

There are only 3 real ways to bring them in without causing headaches and raising plenty of questions:
1. Alien faction (even the UN Spacy mecha).
2. Canceled Prototypes, we already have examples where cost and complexity beat out superior performance or was a factor in curtailing a canon mecha, so they will be factors the M2 units still have to contend with.
3. simply technology demonstrators, this limits the available number and nicely explains their lack of adoption because they where never intended to produce a viable production platform.

You can't really consider bringing in the M2 mecha into RT for a given faction to use without considering the known factors that effect the existing options in RT.

Seto wrote:We know they pushed for the Alpha because their stocks of VF-1s were low and manufacturing more apparently wasn't an option even though the VF-1 is superior by far to the Alpha. UEEF brass pushed for the revival of the Beta program to address the Alpha's shortcomings and, per the RPG, as a replacement for the fleet of Conbat space fighters they apparently couldn't properly maintain in the field (as the book cites a growing number of losses due to mechanical failures and fatigue).

That is not the same as not having the manufacturing capacity.

Aircraft still remain in use even after production has ended (F-22, F-4, F-5, F-14, SR-71, A-10, etc). It is also costly to reopen production lines that have closed (and the R.O.D likely closed a lot of production lines). All aircraft have a design lifespan, even with proper maintenance, so the Conbat and VF-1 points are not unusual when you consider that. Re-opening the lines may be possible, but the designs may no longer suit their needs (or politically motivated, the F-15C was found to have a manufacturing defect a few years back, and the USAF used it to push for more F-22s, even though it could be fixed as an example).

Seto wrote:If those satellites were up to the job, why is the UEEF fleet operating so dangerously undermanned during the Battle of Reflex Point... and why did they need outside help from multiple alien races to handle preparation for the adoption of shadow technology?

They did need alien help with the overall technology, but the only indications from Prelude are that integration with ships (and ship building) required alien support. There is nothing to suggest that the actual production of the mecha required outside help. TSC suggests the Haydnoites may have produced the Shadow Systems, but it was still humans responsible for installation (which means any gap may be on the Haydonite end given the SSF-A/B did not have the systems installed yet).

Nor do I see allied support as indicating the manufacturing capacity was lacking.

Seto wrote:If the colonies were intended to be self-sufficient, and they'd better be since they'd have been cut off from any kind of help for approximately twenty years, and any kind of meaningful resupply for at least ten, they'd have the resources necessary to embark on a new development program

Self-sufficiency does not require them to meet all their possible staffing needs, nor does it require them to operate in isolation.

Nor does self-sufficiency require them to produce new cutting edge Veritechs to handle their needs. The only real danger for the TRM-era that humans seem to know about are the mysterious "Space Pirates" (and maybe even "mutant Zentreadi"), and apparently TRM-era hardware was up to the task, so seeing Colonies use TRM-era (and NG since most overlaps service) hardware to defend themselves shouldn't push for a requirement of a new generation of mecha designs to deal with these guys. As long as the Colonies don't have PC, the Invid should be leaving them alone (and what ever hostilities stopped colonization the existing hardware was up to the task).

So there is no need for a VF-2SS/JA or -1MS or -XX in use by the Colonies for the pre-Haydonite time period. Post-TSC seems unlikely to given the evolution mecha design has taken post TMS with limb placement design and VF transformation approaches. That really rules out a VF-1 derived platform given the influence of post TMS designs (Alpha, Beta, Condor, Logan, AGAC, possibly even the VF-X-4 depending on it's RT transformation since they can't use the OSM there) will have on future designs. That means a future platform is going to come out looking more like them than a VF-1.

Of course it doesn't require, but it could happen an that's the point.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Art of Shadow Chronicles says it was after the 2nd Robotech war [...]

Well, yes and no... they use a plural ("wars"), but they don't specify, and they don't say if they're counting the conflict with the Regent as a Robotech War either.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:that Space became to dangerous for unarmed colony ships... That's a near 17 year period to expand. [...]

If they actually launched any ships... the text for the Angel-class in AotSC doesn't say that any were completed or put into service, just that construction was halted. The implication there is that the ships weren't used, meaning any of their extrasolar colonies would've had to have been established earlier without the use of dedicated colony ships. That means the most likely candidates are the early scouting forces we see out and about in 2012-2014.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The VF-6 Alpha was introduced before the REF/UEEF left, appearing as a protoype in 2015. The Spartas in 2011, Logan in 2018.

Depends whose version we're talking about, really... as ShadowLogan would be only too happy to remind us. The official canon sources suggest that the Alpha was, as you say, in service for 20+ years as the main fighter of the UEEF's forces. The RPG takes a different tack, and suggests that it was the ever-prototype that wasn't adopted in any numbers until nine years after the fleet left Earth.

ShadowLogan wrote:There are only 3 real ways to bring them in without causing headaches and raising plenty of questions:

No, the simplest and most effective way to bring them in that causes the least contradiction or headaches is to treat them as new developments or something that was created "offscreen" in the 2040s. That way you have consistent design ethos and technological implementation, plus a neat answer to the "how do we fight the Haydonites" problem. Otherwise, you're flailing around, creating vast and unnecessary oceans of word salad in an effort to explain how the UEEF decided to go for massively inferior designs over and over again, or to miss the point completely (the way your demonstrator suggestion has gone) and try to introduce them without actually introducing them at all.

In most respects, the Macross II mecha (as written) are more or less a ready-made 2044-era Robotech mecha, since they combine the Macross-y designs that the UEEF is coming back around towards, with touches that can be asserted ICly to be derived from the earlier Alpha fighter and other current developments (four engine configuration, their widespread adoption of railguns, FAST packs for maximized space performance, fusion power to combat the fleet's inability to replenish its protoculture stocks, an evolution of the cockpit interface that includes aspects of powered suit tech). In performance and technological terms, Palladium's critical underselling of those mecha makes them practically ready made for that kind of multiversal insertion.

Gryphon wrote:I agree it could happen, cause, well, fiction and all. But a colony should never be producing designs that are more cutting edge than the standard military. Ever. [...]

Amusingly enough, that's a pretty damn common trope in many mecha shows... Gundam in particular is pretty consistent with that. For our purposes, it's worth remembering that the extrasolar colony behind the VF-2SS would be one that was set up fairly early and went unmolested during the 2nd and 3rd Wars, so the twenty-plus years during which the UEEF and UEDF weren't progressing much technologically and the threat that they might be next if something goes awry would be wonderful motivators.

Gryphon wrote:It wouldn't be so bad of it were a mecha out performing the main stream units in one given way, but there really isn't an area where a VF-2SS doesn't seriously outperform a Legios.

But isn't that really more an issue with the official and often-repeated line that the Alpha and/or Beta were a deficient platform in many ways? It's not really the colonial developer's fault if the UEEF deliberately picks an underperforming or deficient design and runs with it.

Seto wrote:No, the simplest and most effective way to bring them in that causes the least contradiction or headaches is to treat them as new developments or something that was created "offscreen" in the 2040s.

I disagree. If HG ever gets around to the executing Haydonite War Story, we'll probably see new mecha designs. At which point one will need to adapt what was done. So the easiest method (baring the obvious "Don't Do it") would be to simply push them off as another alien menace(s) that the UEEF has to deal with.

That requires no re-writing of the M2 material to get it to fit an established faction, because they aren't connected to an established faction (even colonies would be connected). That they have hardware that resembles previous designs can be put down to an example of convergent/parallel evolution.

It isn't like RT is limited to the big 4 menaces (RM, Invid, Haydonite, Zentreadi). Creating aliens (or borrowing) personal stats is pretty easy with Palladium if you have the right books, but when it comes to gear few races get fleshed out as they are in RT. And the Pioneer colonization did apparently meet some hostile responses, so we can plug the UN Spacy and/or Marduk in as one of those hostile races. They could be examples of other human/Zentreadi factions (Tirolians show that it is possible there are other human worlds out there, and the proto-Zentreadi did fight among themselves so could have gone into several branches, not just the Zentreadi of RT:TMS) or pure aliens all together (swapping the races out for something else from PB).

And it doesn't limit one to a given time period (post 2044). There is very limited stuff to play with in the inter-periods with the UEEF (other than Zent/RM/Invid), so using the M2 to present new factions to deal with would not be bad.

Seto wrote:In most respects, the Macross II mecha (as written) are more or less a ready-made 2044-era Robotech mecha

No they aren't. The M2 mecha (RAW) have a heavy use of mini-missiles (that isn't to say there are exceptions, but the trend is to use mini), even for being full-size mecha of comparable size or larger to UEEF that show a heavy use of SRMs for their full-size mecha. The UEEF's mini-mecha (Silverback/Cyclone) certainly make heavy use of mini's, but the large mecha do not. That would put the M2 as a step backward in reach and firepower (RAW, even if we update the M2 missile table to RT 2E standards).

They also have a few possible actions per melee available from RC:E in all cases but the Beta/Silverback/most-cyclones for the UEEF (did not look at all the ASC stuff, but the VFs are no slouch for actions per melee). other bonuses they are comparable for the most part (Auto/Leap-Dodge being the exception).

From a guns perspective, the mecha are in the same ball-park overall, but that isn't surprising since PB tends to keep guns w/n a certain range (though from a burst size perspective the M2 units can be very wasteful in comparison).

ShadowLogan wrote:I disagree. If HG ever gets around to the executing Haydonite War Story, we'll probably see new mecha designs. [...]

You disagree, but then you turn right around and reiterate my point for me... make up thy mind, sir.

ShadowLogan wrote:At which point one will need to adapt what was done. [...]

Not really, s'long as they're developed independently of the main UEEF forces... but, of course, that depends upon the greatest IF of all: if Harmony Gold is ever going to actually make the next part.

The rest of your assertions... well... it's kind of telling that most of the other contributors agree with my take.

I've finally re-watched Macross 2, and honestly I feel that people who are saying they RPG got things wrong are just over-reacting, alot of the Changes Palladium made were because of Game Balance.
The Game isn't meant to be a direct Simulation of what we see on the TV, but to be a Game slightly based on what we see. so I see no reason to try and "fix" anything present.
If the Games were meant to be a Simulation of the Animations, then the VHT's main gun would have a 400% increase in Rate of Fire.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I've finally re-watched Macross 2, and honestly I feel that people who are saying they RPG got things wrong are just over-reacting, alot of the Changes Palladium made were because of Game Balance. [...]

Eh... I have to disagree, for a wide variety of reasons.

Changes made for the sake of game balance I can understand, but there's so much in these books that's not balance-related at all and is still so wildly wrong that it bears no relation to the actual setting of the OVA. I can't conceive of a balance-related reason for misidentifying the VF-2SS w/o SAP as the main fighter, or the way the number of missile launchers on the SAP directly contradicts the line art on the page (which can't be balance-related, since the standard battle pod has more missiles), or how the ships sizes and armaments are off by orders of magnitude, making it impossible for a UN fleet to stand up to a single Mardook ship. And I'm dead sure there's no balance-related reason for the details of the setting to be completely wrong either.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Game isn't meant to be a direct Simulation of what we see on the TV, but to be a Game slightly based on what we see. so I see no reason to try and "fix" anything present.
If the Games were meant to be a Simulation of the Animations, then the VHT's main gun would have a 400% increase in Rate of Fire.

With no ill intent, my friend, I have a hard time taking this statement seriously when it's you saying it. You're usually among those who ardently protest how the Masters Saga book got many things wrong, and short-sold the Southern Cross Army, or how the fluff presents Leonard as the military dictator of Earth, and so on. This argument doesn't really make much sense, when you've over in another thread right now protesting the many and varied errors in the Masters Saga sourcebook and suggesting fixes for same.



The games aren't meant to be a 100% faithful recreation of the series... but they ARE meant to provide the players with the tools to make their own story in the same setting as the series. Basically, the goal is for a game to replicate the setting, set pieces, and tone of the show. Palladium's Macross II RPG failed and failed HARD in that respect... the book's contents are only superficially Macross II.

If you'd really like, I could give you an itemized rundown of everything in the books that's wrong, setting-wise, but that would be a VERY long list.

Rappanui wrote:the easiest way is to ignore "original Source Material" and come up with your own version, and using the backgrounds provided in novels/RPGs/ or random episodes of Japanese Macross, [...]

Considering all available evidence suggests you're familiar with precisely none of those things, there's no way we could take that seriously... and it seems you're not entirely done being misinformed either. How depressing. Oh well, I can always offer educational guidance.

Rappanui wrote:( and in Macross Frontier, GAIA was one of the planets shown - ON SCREEN - as being one of the colony planes the macross colonists have been to.. [...]

Okay, I was a bit baffled by this one until I realized what the reason for your misunderstanding was... you've watched a bootleg with a really awful, low-quality fansub. The actual name of the planet you're thinking of, which appeared in the 12th and 13th episodes of Macross Frontier, is Gallia 4. The translator in whatever fansub group produced the version you saw screwed up. The planet's name was presented in the series in katakana, written as ガリア４, which is "Garia" or "Galia". The name "Gaia", as in the goddess, has a different spelling... ガイア. The middle character is different, it's a "Ri" or "Li" sound in the planet's name, and a "i" sound in the goddess's.

Also, you may be misremembering the details of the episode... Gallia 4 was not a planet that was colonzied, that was just where the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global crashed after being attacked by the Vajra in 2048. The planet had only a garrison force from the New UN Spacy 33rd Marines's (under Major Ogotwhai's leadership) as permanent residents. The mass-produced Macross-class ships were not used as colony ships themselves, they served as advance scouts for the earliest colony fleets. The SDFN-04 wasn't even attached to a colony fleet when it went down, it was assigned to the 117th Research Fleet, which was the organization tasked with studying the Vajra.

Rappanui wrote:(it's also where the Megaroad 2 Landed in Megazone 23, which had the Hargun and hover cyclone variants)
... although i understood that the megazone was the alternate version of the SDF-2)

This... I don't know what to make of.

The Megazone 23 OVAs are a completely separate series from Macross. They're not related at all, and there's no crossover between the two story-wise. They're completely separate and unrelated universes. Perhaps you're being confused by Harmony Gold's unsuccessful attempt to adapt Megazone 23 Part 1's animation by combining it with animation from Southern Cross under the title Robotech: the Movie?

Now, the Macross universe DOES have a ship named Megaroad-02, but it has never been animated. All we know of it comes from the official main Macross universe timeline, which says only that the ship was the second Megaroad-class ship and was launched in 2014 as the core of the 2nd Super Long Distance Emigration Fleet.

On the other hand, the Megazone 23 universe has no ship named "Megaroad". The big ships that were built to carry humanity into space while Earth's environment recovered are called "Megazones", which we're only introduced to two of. One is the titular Megazone-23, the city in the perpetual 1980s state, and that enemy Megazone referred to only as Dezalg, both of which are destroyed at the end of Part II, though part of Megazone 23 does manage to land on Earth. Even MAHQ could've told you this much.

There's not really any similarity between the two... the two settings are in separate universes and are about 500 years apart, and are on radically different scales, with completely different purposes.

the closest you get to a connection is similar art style, and a couple second image during the history lesson in megazone23 showing ships leaving earth.. one of which looks vaguely like the SDF-1 seen bow on. which was probably just an homage, similar to how the cops that chase Shogo in one sequence, and later show up at the shootout with B.D.'s faction, look like Lupin and Jigen from Lupin the III.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I've finally re-watched Macross 2, and honestly I feel that people who are saying they RPG got things wrong are just over-reacting, alot of the Changes Palladium made were because of Game Balance. [...]

Eh... I have to disagree, for a wide variety of reasons. [sic]

potato --- poo-ta-toad, Game Balance makes perfect sens for every imagined error.

With no ill intent, my friend, I have a hard time taking this statement seriously when it's you saying it. You're usually among those who ardently protest how the Masters Saga book got many things wrong, and short-sold the Southern Cross Army, or how the fluff presents Leonard as the military dictator of Earth, and so on.

Hillariously, when fed the same "Game-balance" line I've been sold for year on the master's saga, There springs up tons of reason why Palladium needs to stick closer to the Rules for a Macross series.. lol

This argument doesn't really make much sense, when you've over in another thread right now protesting the many and varied errors in the Masters Saga sourcebook and suggesting fixes for same.

My Topic is only about an Art Error, the other posters who are de-railing the topic with other errata (you included) are going beyond the realm of my Topics art error.
If I'm going to be fed line about how the Game isn't meant to be perfect to the story in the actual show, know I feel the same when it comes to a Macross product.

The games aren't meant to be a 100% faithful recreation of the series...

Exactly

but they ARE meant to provide the players with the tools to make their own story in the same setting as the series.

The Macross 2 Rules do that

Basically, the goal is for a game to replicate the setting, set pieces, and tone of the show. Palladium's Macross II RPG failed and failed HARD in that respect... the book's contents are only superficially Macross II.

I've watched the show, I can do everything in the show with the Rules provided, even blow up the Marduke ship with the Metal-siren, if you roll well enough....

If you'd really like, I could give you an itemized rundown of everything in the books that's wrong, setting-wise, but that would be a VERY long list.

Sure, and I'd do the same for the Current Robotech edition, and we can both agree to disagree.

one something as Simple as fixing the VHT's rate of Fire, I was fed the "Game Balance" Lojik, so believe me, it applies here as Well. the Macross 2 game isn't a perfect simulation of Macross 2 the animation. the Changes Kevin made were for Game balance reasons, simple enough.

Changes Kevin made were not changes at all but assumptions based a poorly viewed and half assed note taking session just like RT 1st Ed. It's pretty disingenuous to say they for game balance in my opinion when they had so little reference material to work with at the time and they made as many if not more errors in RT 1st Ed even though they had more reference material than they had for M2. Ive never heard them say THOSE errors were for game balance so shy would that be the case for M2?

Furthermore game balance is a farce in palladium games to begin with. Just look at the new RT. what does game balance have to do with why things like the Spartans main gun rof or the fact the ep37 has 50% more power than the eu13? I'll tell you how much.....none. They are errors that won't get owned up to nothing more.

Seto wrote:Not really, s'long as they're developed independently of the main UEEF forces... but, of course, that depends upon the greatest IF of all: if Harmony Gold is ever going to actually make the next part.

Yes they will need to adapt what is done in later publications. The Colonies may rely on the UEEF exclusively to help with development of mecha for their needs and are incapable of independent designs. Which really points to them using UEEF related hardware and design preferences rather than out-dated TMS philosophies.

That is why I say the easiest route is to simply use the M2 stuff for new aliens for the UEEF to deal with.

I have been looking at the M2 Destroids, and overall they are actually a step backward from the UEDF-TMS-era designs in many respects (by RAW), and what few improvements exist really could be retrofitted to the existing designs than require a new mecha be created. Even their Veritechs for the most part don't fit with the UEEF design (VF-2SS/XX) and in many respects are outclassed by the slower UEEF designs, even the Metal Siren can be seen as not stacking up well to UEEF designs (in general, not a specific case). Now there are specific attributes that do appear better, but overall they do not fit the UEEF approach. They really don't fit the UEDF-RDF approach either, but at least there they can more logically be used as technology demonstrators or prototypes given certain attributes make them good transition units between the two groups.

Seto wrote: it's kind of telling that most of the other contributors agree with my take.

Which proves nothing. How many topics have people who agree with each other, but also conflicting views with others and think they are right (US Affordable Care Act, Abortion, Gun Control, Religion, legality of drugs, Climate Change, speed limits on the road, etc).

jaymz wrote:Changes Kevin made were not changes at all but assumptions based a poorly viewed and half **** note taking session just like RT 1st Ed.

IDK if insulting the writer is helping any...

Ive never heard them say THOSE errors were for game balance so shy would that be the case for M2?

I've been posting here for close to a decade and have heard every excuse for how many problems the 1st ed game had.. even game Balance was used several times to explain away issues.

Furthermore game balance is a farce in palladium games to begin with.

Mayhaps so, but it was used as an excuse by several posters in a Master's Errata thread to excuse the VHT's main gun having 25% of the fire-rate of the mecha on screen.
Honestly, "Game design" would be a better reason for many of the changes present in all 3 of the games mentioned here.

Just look at the new RT. what does game balance have to do with why things like the Spartans main gun rof or the fact the ep37 has 50% more power than the eu13? I'll tell you how much.....none. They are errors that won't get owned up to nothing more.

Game Design and Poorly thought out problems and little to no play-testing can all excuse the problems present in the new game. when a hand-held 2lb pistol has 200% of the fire power of a 500lb gun, it is problimatic, but it can eb blamed on game-balance, or game-design.
I just prefer things to be place on an even Keel, and if were gonna call out the micro-errors present in the Macross 2 books as making it nearly un=playable, then lets do the same for the errors in the other books as well.

No argument here since as you well know I rewrite ALL the stats

Colonel Wolfe wrote:potato --- poo-ta-toad, Game Balance makes perfect sens for every imagined error. [...]

No, it really and truly does not.

First and foremost, the errors in the Macross II RPG are not imaginary. That the books contains a great number of significant errors and failures of research is a matter of objective, demonstrable fact. Much of the setting material is simply incorrect, with errors as basic and obvious as stating the wrong year for the events depicted in the OVA. This is even less excusable than RT1E's accuracy problems, since much of the material was, in fact, available in English and published in the US in the years before the RPG was written.

Second, the reasoning that "game balance" explains these issues makes no sense at all on examination. The sizes of ships doesn't affect game balance, and the game balance for ships is HORRIBLY unbalanced anyway. The text not matching the art for things like the number of missiles launchers on a VF-2SS doesn't materially effect game balance, since the total number of missiles barely changes at all. If it were things like weapons rate-of-fire being off, or the weapon's mega-damage not being to scale, that's a game-balance change. On the other hand, weapons being misidentified as something else entirely, or listed in a way that contradicts a piece of art in the same entry... that isn't game balance, that's just a screw-up, and that kind of screw-up makes up the majority of what we see in the Macross II RPG.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Hillariously, when fed the same "Game-balance" line I've been sold for year on the master's saga, There springs up tons of reason why Palladium needs to stick closer to the Rules for a Macross series.. lol

Well, that explains it... you're not actually making an argument that you expect anyone to take seriously, all your post is is sour grapes, or your bizarre hate complex over Macross expressing itself again.

Seriously, take it somewhere else before I decide that you need to be reported.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I've watched the show, I can do everything in the show with the Rules provided, even blow up the Marduke ship with the Metal-siren, if you roll well enough....

But the actual content of the book, the details of the setting and so on, do not match Macross II at all. The significant failures of accuracy that I've referred to do not, as I noted previously, badly affect the game's playability... they do, however, make it Macross II in name only.

jaymz wrote:Changes Kevin made were not changes at all but assumptions based a poorly viewed and half assed note taking session just like RT 1st Ed.

There's no solid case for it being game balance changes, but we don't know exactly how much research was done (if any) when the books were being written. There are many errors of the "What show were they even watching?" variety, such as the Macross Cannon's size, but Palladium has not been forthcoming about which resources they used in writing the game. Whether they were misled by US Renditions, or were flying blind in their writing the way they were for RT1E, we're not sure... I suspect they were flying blind, however, based upon certain errors in the core book.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes they will need to adapt what is done in later publications. The Colonies may rely on the UEEF exclusively to help with development of mecha for their needs and are incapable of independent designs.

You have exactly zero evidence upon which to base that assertion. We've never seen any outsystem colony worlds in Robotech, and we almost certainly never will because they don't seem to actually exist.

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] Even their Veritechs for the most part don't fit with the UEEF design (VF-2SS/XX) and in many respects are outclassed by the slower UEEF designs, even the Metal Siren can be seen as not stacking up well to UEEF designs (in general, not a specific case). [...]

Now, I realize that you've very fond of the Alpha and Beta, even though Harmony Gold has already explicitly stated they're deficient airframes and earmarked them for replacement in future Robotech works, but I really have to question why your remarks here aren't lining up with anything resembling objective reality.

Let's take a few brief examples for comparison here:

The VF-2JA Icarus may have less main body MDC than an Alpha, but its radar's range is 33% greater than an Alpha's, its comms are identical in performance, its fuel capacity (per RAW) is 144 times that of an Alpha or Beta, its life support systems have 28 times the endurance, its night-vision range is shorter but its other sensors are identical, it's 20% faster on foot, its flight ceiling is higher, it's 43% faster in fighter mode, more than twice as fast flying in GERWALK mode, its lasers are more powerful (3 or 6D6 vs. 2 or 4D4) which boasts up to 4 times the effective range, the standard gun pod has the same range and stopping power as those EU-13s the Alphas carry but also is explicitly reloadable and gets double range in space, plus there's optional gun pods that offer greater range, stopping power, and endurance than the EU-13.

Copy and paste all the stuff about basic systems for the VF-2SS, which also has less main body MDC, but that's also comparable or faster than an Alpha in level flight (Palladium goofed and forgot this was originally an all-regime bird with a bunch of verniers tacked on), faster than a Beta in space, weapons are same as above. With the Super Armed Pack added, the VF-2SS has 32% more main body MDC, it's got a greater PS rating, it gains six long-range missiles (which none of the UEDF or UEEF VFs save the VF-1 can take), more mini-missiles than an Alpha (which are guided), it can reload its gunpod four times, and can take four independent drones which each have guns that outpower the EU-13 and can even match the big gun on the Spartas.

The same holds true for the Metal Siren, and the VF-XX...

The only real issue here is the missiles, and you're likely going to use the 2nd Edition RT missile tables if you import it anyway, and replacing the mini-missiles with standard SRMs as are found on FAST packs in RT2E's RAW, you end up with a VF-2SS that outguns, outruns, out-ranges, outlasts, and out-armors the Alpha and Beta without changing any other stats whatsoever.

The Macross II destroids are a separate matter of inquiry, though they do come up rather short in comparison to the RT2E versions. This is about half stats creep and half Palladium screwing up their research massively.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote: it's kind of telling that most of the other contributors agree with my take.

Which proves nothing.

It shows that most people don't agree with your approach, which seems to be rather light on factual basis in terms of VF stats, and evidently motivated by personal bias.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Seriously, take it somewhere else before I decide that you need to be reported.

That was my actual laugh out loud moment of the day.

Practice, as you would preach.

ArmySGT. wrote:That was my actual laugh out loud moment of the day.

Hm... well then, let's see if I can top it.

ArmySGT. wrote:Practice, as you would preach.

Eh... I'm aware I'm not the easiest guy in the world to get along with, but I'm a lot milder than the guy that's directed to. I do try to rein in my caustic manner, with varying levels of success.

ShadowLogan wrote:Even their Veritechs for the most part don't fit with the UEEF design (VF-2SS/XX) [...]

Been looking over this s'more, and I'm really not seeing your grounds for objection. There's some commonality there between the VF-2SS and Alpha design-wise, surrounding engine configurations and so on, and since the design aesthetic is different it's only too easy to pass off as the product of an isolated colony world that was using old VF-1s and Destroids as the basis for its future development.

The VF-2SS's engine configuration matches the Alpha's, more or less, with two main and two sub-engines in fighter, two main and three sub-engines in GERWALK, and a superior configuration of all five engines usable in Battroid mode. The transformation is simpler and more direct, with no parts detaching from one another like there are on a VF-1, and like the Alpha the main body folds once in a simpler manner, just that it folds in the opposite direction. It has a cargo area large enough to potentially store a Cyclone behind the pilot. There's the emphasis on large numbers of short-range missiles, and operating in tandem with unmanned fighters. An outsider could be forgiven for looking at RAW and concluding that the VF-2SS was a 2040s UEEF design from the spec given and design similarities. Even on the Super Shadow Fighter, you see commonality in terms of their using small, streamlined FAST packs instead of big, chunky boosters.

It'd be more difficult to present the VF-XX that way, since it bears more resemblance to a Zentradi mecha, but that's explainable via the Bioroid Interceptor... same approach, a merger of human and alien tech. The Metal Siren's just the next gen after the VF-2SS, and so on.

Incorporating it is actually fairly simple and straightforward, with little in the way of changes... and it doesn't necessarily even have to contradict any future developments for RTSC, since any new fighter we run into on that front is almost guaranteed to be something the UEEF developed internally.

Rappa - no dp9 had more to do with layout and design and what writing they did was only in the deck plans which in turn was hamstrung by the first two books written and thus completely controlled by Kevin. To think they had any freedom in what they wrote is naive.

Seto wrote:You have exactly zero evidence upon which to base that assertion. We've never seen any outsystem colony worlds in Robotech, and we almost certainly never will because they don't seem to actually exist.

True, but it is a scenario that has to be considered when importing the M2 (or other materials) stuff given the lack of any real details about the Colonies. Both sides are shooting in the dark here with overly optimistic assessments to overly pessimistic assessments.

It's just easier to put M2 in as alien encounters that are either hushed up or minor footnotes that can be glossed over as explanations to fit any new information that could come out.

Seto wrote:Let's take a few brief examples for comparison here:

I've mentioned how the TOTAL MDC compares previously, and for a MDC/mass ratio also shows them to fit better with an earlier time period.

The Radar on the Alpha though has capabilities NOT present on the M2 mecha (ability to disable sensors). It's ability to track is comparable. The Beta has shorter range radar (no disabling sensors ability), but it can track more targets. Both UEEF mecha have superior Combat Computers to the M2 units with 2.5-3x the range and equal to greater tracking ability. Edge clearly here goes with the UEEF mecha in avionics in overall ability (they can track farther out in general, and the Beta's radar may be shorter range but it makes up for it with greater tracking capacity and combat computer range).

I'm not sure I see the need for 8weeks worth of air capacity (you aren't carrying 8weeks worth of food or water). The Fuel capacity is an advantage, but when you lose an M2 unit you lose 12year supply of fuel vs a few weeks with the UEEF units.

The flight characteristics (speed/altitude) are noted. I don't consider them to be as important when you consider that the UEEF/UEDF-ASC do not appear to place the same emphasis on maintaining or superseding the performance capabilities of the prior generation of UEDF-RDF platforms in general based on the stat blocks. So it is unlikely they are going to be as much of an issue.

Built in beam/projectile weapons are a mixed bag. Some of the M2 systems have ROF limitations, so 2 actions vs 4+ per melee round can potentially overcome the damage. While the Alpha may not hold up well in this respect to M2 units, the Beta and it's systems clearly do hold up in this area (IINM only two M2 systems have better range than Beta guns but still can't outclass 3 EU-14s working together).

Gunpods (hand-held), put simply the UEEF ones have smaller payload and burst size, but generally do comparable damage/range considering the burst size (5-10rnds vs typical 40-80). Plus IMHO all the gunpods are portable, so really don't count in establishing better/worse platforms if they can all use them. It's like saying bob is better than jon because he has weapon-X, when either can really use weapon-X. Now the UEEF/ASC/RDF do seem to limit availability in their descriptions to their standard armament, but it is not hard to see them using other gunpods.

The whole missile thing, I'm going off the raw so no swapping the M2 mini's for SRM. Guidance can go either way, since 2E RT says mini-missiles are not guided unlike M2 (I think M2 is the only PB line to have guided mini-missiles). It depends on how much of the rules one wants to cross-over, but heavy load of mini's is not able to compete with heavy loads of SRMs.

As for the Drone thing. Shadow Drones do have a autonomous AIs (RT.com infopedia), so are clearly an edge up over the Squires in that respect. No idea how many AIs a human pilot can direct, since we don't have stats yet. The Squires are also limited to 3 attacks per round, we don't know how many the Shadow Drone AI would have (if the QF-3k and Golem are any indications they will have more than 3).

Seto wrote:Been looking over this s'more, and I'm really not seeing your grounds for objection. There's some commonality there between the VF-2SS and Alpha design-wise,

IMHO there is much more commonality in the -2SS/JA & -1MS designs with regard to the VF-1 than the Alpha or any other ASC/UEEF Veritech to date (I really haven't looked at the -XX). What little commonality you see, strikes me more as an interim design between the way the RDF and UEEF/ASC design their mecha (not w/regard to performance) as opposed to an evolution from it as that strikes me as having de-evolutionary features. It makes sense that with some of the changes would be tested out first with a known platform before being used if at all possible (internal/conformal missile launchers, extra engines, etc).

jaymz wrote:No argument here since as you well know I rewrite ALL the stats

And that's exactly how it can be handled. Then game-design and "game-balance" are all issues that you control.
Want to incorporate Mac-II into Robotech, have it be 80 years after New Generation (having ran out of PC, they turned to pure-fusion and larger designs).
or have it take place off world... have it take place in the 2010's with modification... its your game run it like you want. no reason to be forced into a cookie-cutter vision of "canon".

Rappanui wrote:the guys at Deep Pod 9 Actually wrote most of the stats and material for Macross II, not KS and team. If anything you may want to lay fireworks and Lava at their feet, they do respond to email and criticism.

As jaymz has already indicated, that's not actually true... for the two main books.

Yes, Dream Pod 9's staff did write the three Deck Plans books for the Macross II RPG, but their staff isn't mentioned in the credits for the core book and Sourcebook One. The title page of the core book lists our man Kevin Siembieda as the writer, and the same is true for the sourcebook. Had Dream Pod 9's staffers written it, the Macross II RPG would probably have been much more accurate... because DP9's Martin Ouellette was behind much of the English language magazine coverage of Macross II, including at least one piece which was published in Mecha Press that contained a partial translation of the VF History article that originally appeared in B-Club Magazine Vol.79, which contained a fair amount of information about the mecha and setting of the series. The problems with the Deck Plans books they did seem to be mostly caused by the way Palladium had already drafted the human ship stats (inaccurately), and they had to go with it.

Palladium didn't identify the specific sources it referenced for the books, though they did credit US Renditions and a British researcher named Ruppert Fraser as sources of information. US Renditions should have known a lot of the details that didn't get put into the books correctly, since the story summary in the soundtracks the company was also releasing in the US did correctly identify 2092 as the year Macross II was set. That doesn't rule them out as a source of inaccurate information, but it does make it rather more likely that Kevin was flying blind or getting bad information from elsewhere. The books do include one or two minor touches in their fluff that do suggest SOMEONE involved was at least marginally aware of the OSM publications... their use of "VC-079" for Hibiki's VF, a designation that only appears in two publications, while it's otherwise called only "SNN Valkyrie".

I wouldn't be at all inclined to blame Kevin for it, since finding sources for information on Macross II was hard enough with the benefit of the internet. It probably would've been even harder back in the day, and for someone who doesn't speak any Japanese.

Keep it civil folks. This is why I dropped out of a local anime club when fan-dubs were coming in during the late 80's. Arguments about 'I can read or speak Japanese and you can't, that word is translated wrong' and on and on. And I'm talking about Gundam. And my favorite: "I have some Japanese magazines that I only show to select people." Are we having fun? I decided - no. That was it.

So if anyone wants to play Macross II and have fun, go for it. If it gets people really riled up then you're not going to have fun.


We no longer have the license which was held by L.A. Hero/U.S. Renditions, and the Macross II characters and mecha are copyrighted and trademarked by Hero Communications/Big West/Macross II Project. Page 5 of the Macross II RPG tells the reader that Macross II is NOT Robotech.



Alex Marciniszyn

ShadowLogan wrote:I've mentioned how the TOTAL MDC compares previously, and for a MDC/mass ratio also shows them to fit better with an earlier time period.

The MDC-to-mass ratio is a misleading statistic at the best of times, since MDC distributions aren't uniform in 2nd Edition on its own, let alone across all properties. The mass statistic is also pretty much arbitrary and is pretty much disconnected from the actual crunch for most purposes.

ShadowLogan wrote:The whole missile thing, I'm going off the raw so no swapping the M2 mini's for SRM. [...]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that someone who brings these fighters into RT2E is almost certainly going to use just 2E's missile table... and probably just 2E's basic VF systems as well. So a lot of those areas of general systems disparity are going to vanish, which favors the M2 Valks a lot.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the Drone thing. Shadow Drones do have a autonomous AIs (RT.com infopedia), so are clearly an edge up over the Squires in that respect.

We don't have stats for those, so we really can't count them...

Seto wrote:The MDC-to-mass ratio is a misleading statistic at the best of times, since MDC distributions aren't uniform in 2nd Edition on its own, let alone across all properties. The mass statistic is also pretty much arbitrary and is pretty much disconnected from the actual crunch for most purposes.

Actually no it isn't a misleading statistic. Comparing a single known location can be more misleading because it doesn't factor in anything else that may effect the value

Seto wrote:he problem with this line of reasoning is that someone who brings these fighters into RT2E is almost certainly going to use just 2E's missile table... and probably just 2E's basic VF systems as well. So a lot of those areas of general systems disparity are going to vanish, which favors the M2 Valks a lot.

I do not object to the use of the 2E missile table when porting the M2 units into the new setting, what I object to is RAW says they use Mini-Missiles and you substituting them for SRMs on the new table. Regardless of which table one uses, Mini-Missile performance has remained unchanged between the two editions. The M2 entry does not say you can use SRM or Minis in those launchers, so you really can not change them on the basis of RAW.

I do not object to updating some of the stat blocks from the M2 VFs to RT VF tables, but I would include the speed blocks also since they are being made into VF-1s.

Seto wrote:We don't have stats for those, so we really can't count them...

True, but we know the Shadow Alpha Drones exist and can be covered at some point. And it isn't like IMU rules (or 'bot construction rules from other lines) can not be used to improvise the Shadow Drone Stats until they come out.