Unrest Over New Update for Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:44 am

Steve Carroll wrote:Maybe they could release a PDF for sale on Drive-Thru once the Rules are completed.

Not bad idea bu that would get a lot of backers upset as again it is something being made available to the public when the backers hadn't gotten anything yet. Maybe release the PDF of the rule and game cards to the backers at least

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:08 am

PDFs were requested repeatedly during the campaign, and post campaign. It was flat out, definitively and utterly rejected every time an answer was given.

Yes, I respect that these were generally prior to a 6+ month delay and a boiling controversy, but given Palladium's stance on pdfs in general, I highly doubt it'll happen.

Which I'm sure we both know, so don't take that as merely stating the obvious. Consider it more as lamenting what I wish wasn't the case.

I mean, it's a miniatures game. The money isn't in the rules, it's in the figures. I can't imagine it'd even take much time for someone with a pdf editor to strip out the artwork and *bam*, bare bones rules for all to peruse. I can even see massive advantages to having a playerbase of thousands who are already familiar with how the game plays by the time they can get models in their hands. Leagues and tournaments starting up more swiftly and smoothly because local shops are at least familiar with how the game plays, rather than needing to split time between building figures and digesting pages upon pages of rules, exclusions, exceptions, mech stats and whatnot.

Basically, make the next 3 (heh) months productive for the community, rather than an ongoing holding pattern.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:37 am

good suggestions

Chronicle · Unread post by **Chronicle** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:18 am

It is rough. People will pick apart every thing these days. I dodn't expect a finished product anytime soon. Quality and fast dont mix well. I do expect the once it is released it will be quality both in rules and artwork. Then a good springboard to a rifts produ t

Bad_Syntax · Unread post by **Bad_Syntax** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:28 am

I will have a dozen EXTRA copy of the rules. If PB thinks PDFs are somehow worth money, well, the dozen copies of the rules I'll be GIVING away to anybody interested begs to differ.

BUT, if HG is saying do not distribute, its another thing entirely.

I can't see a single logical, nor business, reason not to distribute these particular rules in PDF (though they may have to finish them first, which is understandable). If anybody knows any I'm all ears.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:50 am

Palladium is the one that created the GenCon deadlines so if anything is rushed it is on them. They created each of these missed deadlines.

Unread post by **NMI** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:18 pm

This is the LAST time I come in to this thread to remind you folks that this is Palladium's forums and that trolling, slamming and outright insulting of Palladium WILL NOT BE TOLERATED here!

There are plenty of places on the net to take your concerns to. I understand your concerns and issues with the deadlines, updates, # of pieces i na given miniature, etc... Your criticism is welcomed. Your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is welcomed. Your insults and trolling is not!

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:53 pm

Regarding a potential "rush": In April 2013 we were told that 6 months of work had been put into the game and the figures before the campaign launched, meaning that as it stands, nearly 18 months have been spent on it, and even a June (as currently targeted) delivery would represent around 21+ months of effort between 3 companies, dozens of employees and, if I'm not mistaken, "hundreds" of playtesters.

I sincerely hope there aren't any issues with a rush job at that point. Game and figure development are not fast, but with Wave 2 due out at what will be past the 2 year point, it certainly hasn't been at a sprint.

@NMI: You have requested that repeatedly. Perhaps it'd be helpful to point out specifically which posters and statements are considered 'trolling' here, because while there has been a bit of harshness directed their way, for all I know you're talking about me and while I'm not necessarily pulling any punches, I don't feel I've stated anything untrue or terribly disrespectfully.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:18 pm

Word. I mean the rush is that with the impending approach of GenCon they have no option but to produce what they have. They aren't gonna take any extra time to improve the models or change the molds because they don't have the time available. They aren't listening to the customers or the backers to see if they are happy or what changes they might like. They are slapping together models to show us so they have something to show and it looks rushed. If feels rushed. Between the lack of communication and the answers being here is what you get and why, it leaves a lot of people unsatisfied. People feeling left out even though it is their money making this possible. The Backers money is being spent to pay for shipping twice and to redo any molds and to ship by air and not by sea if that is really the case. Palladium doesn't actually have to worry about losing a dime of investors money because the only investors are people like you and me without any real recourse if they mess this up. It is scary to a lot of folks to think about that.

DhAkael · Unread post by **DhAkael** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:27 pm

Jorel wrote: Palladium doesn't actually have to worry about losing a dime of investors money because the only investors are people like you and me without any real recourse if they mess this up. It is scary to a lot of folks to think about that.

Yes it is. This is why I never spent a single ha'penny on any of the kickstarter projects.
ESPECIALLY to a third-party company (which is shopping-out miniature construction to a 4TH party company) which is working in concert with PB which is under liscence from HG.
:nh:

It's an ungodly mess.
In this case K.S. is almost blameless though. I don't think he has any control EXCEPT promotions at this point.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:30 pm

He has a lot of control if he is approving pieces before HG ever has a chance to see them. He is sending them back with changes and I'd guess several times before he ever presents them to HG. To me that is real control. HG may have final say, but if they never see something because he doesn't like it...they cannot approve that. He is in fact holding all the cards from my perspective.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:31 pm

IMO, one of the biggest concerns, aside from some truly stunning conspiracy theories, is a sizable enough portion of the backers selling their figures on the secondary market to the point that it impacts retail sales noticeably, doubly so if it's backed with an ongoing sentiment that the figures are a pain to build in the numbers needed for large scale games.

Large scale games being desirable as it means people end up paying thousands of dollars over the years to build up 5 squads of ______ and 10 squads of _____ and 14 _______'s, etc. If the community/playerbase says "Eff that noise" and is content to buy a core box and a couple of expansions, it's not exactly going to fly off the shelves.

It comes down to supply and demand. If the demand is low and the supply is high, the price drops. Who is going to pay $30 (20% off MSRP) for a VT box if they can get them on ebay or craigslist or kijiji for $25 or $20 or less? And while that may eventually balance out (depending on how many players and collectors are actually out there and willing to pay for boxes), as the number of dissatisfied backers is surely less than the total global demand, in the short term it could do enough harm to distributors and retailers (sites and physical stores alike) to cause them to drop or rein in their stock needs.

With 2 shipping waves and who knows what else, presumably the goal of PB, ND, HG and their associated distributors and retailers is to make money, and soon. If there are weeks or even months of people pitching their boxes onto ebay to overcome, that's basically a double loss; one person who was a 'sure thing' is now getting out, and someone else who *would* have bought models from stores is instead taking them off Player One's hands.

Not to mention the damage that negative buzz and word of mouth can have. Even a sterling reputation can tarnish, and I think we can agree that there are certainly some sentiments out there in the wider gamer community (some deserved, some not, but present all the same) that are less than positive.

Of note, this isn't meant to be all "DOOM AND GLOOM! FOR WOE THE END IS NIGH!", I'm merely pointing out that there are business considerations to this. Early on, when some consumers and retailers may be skittish of 'yet another game', where nostalgia might overcome reluctance, is a vulnerable time. Even with the KS backer funding, that money only goes so far, and they're presumably going to want to turn this into a positive revenue stream sooner rather than later.

And depending on how this works out, that could be a problem.

But I'm sure they'll keep their word, fire off 'mouth watering minis' to the backers in June and have piles of boxes to rake in some sweet, sweet Gencon money with.

:-D

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:36 pm

I think we should be able to discuss these things here without fear of reprisal. I don't think it is an issue to talk about the problems because if we are expected to be constructive we first need to know what we are dealing with.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan · Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:10 pm

If the models require this many pieces and are this detailed, there is no way the Southern Cross models will be able to be made in the same scale. Either that or they will look crappy in comparison.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:15 pm

Or a lot of things will have to get compressed into a few pieces.

... or we're going to need magnifying glasses and tweezers.

For inch tall hover tanks, I'm hoping for the former. From 3 feet away on the table it's not like I'm going to be able to make out the individual armour plate rivets.

Especially once my ham handed construction, primer and painting efforts have taken their course.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:17 pm

NMI wrote:This is the LAST time I come in to this thread to remind you folks that this is Palladium's forums and that trolling, slamming and outright insulting of Palladium WILL NOT BE TOLERATED here!

There are plenty of places on the net to take your concerns to. I understand your concerns and issues with the deadlines, updates, # of pieces i na given miniature, etc... Your criticism is welcomed. Your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is welcomed. Your insults and trolling is not!

Sir with respect nobody is trolling. I see concerned fans of PB both old and new having a civil discussion about a game company I feel passionate about.

I'm still optimistic that PB will make the gencon deadline and it will sell out the first day. The pdf for this isn't going to happen guys, so might as well drop it. :-)

I'm still eager to cut up my models (not miniatures) and reposing them given the limited pose.

Bad_Syntax · Unread post by **Bad_Syntax** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:18 pm

They should all be in the same scale, that'd be crazy if not. Plenty of 6mm power armor on the market proves it can be done just fine. 15mm miniatures look great.

Southern Cross, power armor, and so forth would all be like half the size, and I'm betting most would be 1-3 pieces as splitting them up gains nothing. They won't be super duper detailed anymore, but you can't really even notice at that scale. The miniatures just aren't as complicated. Bioroids could be 1 piece with maybe 3 poses, cyclones 1 piece, Alphas 1 piece, etc. They are far simpler models, far more compacted designs, and since they are so much smaller they are far easier to ignore those little bitty details that is causing all the rukus now. I anticipate maybe 5 little invid scouts or cyclones on a stand, and maybe 2-3 bioroids or smaller veritechs. This way you aren't moving tiny pieces, so much like Battletech battle armor.

And this game has to be a major success before we start looking at the far less popular robotech series

I really hope to eventually get a bunch of 6mm Cyclones (and 6mm SAMAS!) for my games, even if I end up getting them printed myself from 3d models

I'm already working on a Rifts conversion in the same manner as the RRT one. Its far more difficult IMO, but should still be quite fun.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:19 pm

B_S, if I never have another scale based argument with you, it'll be too soon.

6mm cyclones. Ugh. Might as well put in an order for a jeweler's loupe now.

Bad_Syntax · Unread post by **Bad_Syntax** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:24 pm

Kryptt wrote:I'm still optimistic that PB will make the gencon deadline and it will sell out the first day. The pdf for this isn't going to happen guys, so might as well drop it.

They could sell the PDF now for $2 and get free money from folks.

That is what PB has never realized, is that once you produce a PDF, every single sale after is 100% profit (or nearly so, minus bandwidth and processing fees).

Like all their old stuff that doesn't sell so much anymore, may as well make it a PDF. No storage, no printing, no "extras", just shoot out the PDFs and see the profit come rollin'. Surely a $20 PDF of a $30 book is a better deal to PB. I would hope their markup isn't over that.

Books are so 20th century now. For a black and white book like the rifts stuff, they simply are a better value to purchase in PDF form.

So for all them reasons, I just can't drop the PDF until PB comes back with some really good reason on why PDF just can't happen today, not just with RRT, but for all their stuff.

6mm Cyclones, yeah, like these are so horrible: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wy-BkdCm7qI/TebNWVBKOtI/AAAAAAAAAlI/eILVgpWqrZI/s1600/2011-06-01_19-36-58_744.jpg

Cyclons *can* fight Zentraedi, do you really want them in the same height???

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:28 pm

Bad_Syntax wrote:6mm Cyclones, yeah, like these are so horrible: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wy-BkdCm7qI/TebNWVBKOtI/AAAAAAAAAlI/eILVgpWqrZI/s1600/2011-06-01_19-36-58_744.jpg

Cyclons *can* fight Zentraedi, do you really want them in the same height???

A) wow, yeah, that's a level of detail this noob painter will never get on something that small.

B) who said they needed to be the same size? It's possible to have a shade of grey between "6mm tall cyclones" and "WHY NOT JUST MAKE THEM AN INCH AND A HALF TALL!?!"

Kindly don't put words in my mouth. I have never, ever asked for 45mm (or whatever) tall Cyclones.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:30 pm

their intent was to make it the same scale across all the various Robotech Tactics games.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:37 pm

After seeing the mecha in CE I hope PB makes minis out of those designs. They look great!

Steve Carroll · Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:41 pm

hmmm... I think I may have just gone a tad too far on the Kickstarter page...

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:47 pm

I concur. It is tough getting called a defender when you are actually trying to be realistic about what is going on over there.

Bad_Syntax · Unread post by **Bad_Syntax** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:52 pm

If the scales weren't all the same, I doubt I would have bought but *maybe* a single battlecry, much less 14 of them.

The thing is, Robotech, the whole universe, as powerful little guys in armor, all the way up to the M.A.C. II (and Cyclops!). If you change 1 scale, then *everything* looks off.

X-Wing recently did this with their 2 new starships, they reduced their size like 30% or something. Enough that they weren't *too* big, but still far bigger than the fighters. This works, as the size difference isn't too large, and there are 2 distinct sizes of units.

In Robotech, and in hopefully Rifts, scales go all the way up. So if you make a Cyclone a big larger, all the sudden its as large as a Bioroid. If you make a VHT a bit larger, you end up with short zentraedi piloting them (and not the Dana Sterling kind, but 10-12' tall humans). I am VERY happy they stuck with 1 scale, and I'm sure it contributed to the success over a bunch of abstract scales for ease in painting. And just FYI, I had lasik, and my eyes don't even focus enough up close now to see those details anyway. Even if they did, on the tabletop your always 2' or more away anyway so those tiny details are irrelevant.

Anyway, I have been quite cynical about some PB things in the past, well, I still am, but this fuss over the miniatures just doesn't feel very valid. I don't think they need to be quite so many parts, but I do not do this for a living so I can't exactly argue it. I do think the seams are horrible and need to be addressed somehow. Aside from that though, I have hardly seen a reason to attack PB, or anybody else, with so much passion.

Now, I don't know who's who at PB, but looking at the forum moderators and stuff it doesn't appear many staffers are very active on the forums. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have to ask.

Who are we complaining to? Hopefully it isn't just to make ourselves feel better and its being listened to, but as a fellow human, I'm pretty sure after the first page I would have stopped reading.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:56 pm

Jorel wrote:their intent was to make it the same scale across all the various Robotech Tactics games.

I'm aware.

There is a difference between "aiming to stay in roughly the same scale" and "refusing to budge even an inch".

Though there've been unconfirmed reports that some of the figures are already a bit out of scale.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:56 pm

I'd call it discussing. And we are doing it with other members of the community. And that is who it is for. I intially started this thread because Palladium wasn't addressing any of the concerns on the Update and they were getting more out of hand by the minute over there. It was for the community and maybe with the hope that the staff may take notice, but really for the community to discuss what is going on over there which will affect Palladium as a whole one way of another after this is all said and done.

Steve Carroll · Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:00 pm

There is definitely some dissatisfaction. However, it really is mostly a few TRULY unruly people who are making things extremely volitile. Trying to passify them may not be helping though. There is one who twists every single thing into a personal attack against Kevin for some unknown reason. It is getting truly offensive!

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:08 pm

There are as many with actual valid opinions if not ten times as many that realize the few like Zero have ruined their chance at being heard. I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:10 pm

I agree, however there are also valid complaints being left by a surprising number of people.

As I noted in the KS comments, as of last night there were 82 people commenting on that update, a simply unheard of number, at a glance. No, not all of them were unhappy. Some were vocally having a tantrum, some were rather calmly expressing concern or displeasure, some were very happy with what they saw, and others believe that no wrong can be done with this project. It's a wide array of responses, but it's a simply massive discussion all the same, and it'd do the project and PB a disservice to ignore the reasonable members because one person is having a meltdown.

That'd be a lamentable error. In the same way one shouldn't kowtow to the vocal minority, dismissing the entirety of those with complaints as "whiners" or "haters" or "unpleasable" is too far in the other direction.

Steve Carroll · Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:11 pm

I wasn't. I quite clearly said there are a number that have concerns. I have also stated that I am one of those.

Edit: This was in regard to Jorel's comments.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:11 pm

considering less than 40 people liked that or the previous update that 81-82 number is very telling.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm

And to be clear, that 82 was last night. And I'm pretty sure the 'likes' were 36 or 38, which means that in the last day or so, the number of participants has likely gone up (I'm noticing a few new names here and there over the course of the day), but those 'liking' what they see has not.

For whatever little that is worth, of course.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:24 pm

still under 40 likes means even if people aren't commenting cause they are happy they aren't liking it enough to tell Palladium on the one place they can rate it

Shawn Merrow · Unread post by **Shawn Merrow** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:34 pm

Jorel wrote:considering less than 40 people liked that or the previous update that 81-82 number is very telling.

Didn't know you could like them, I just read the email I get without going to the site most of the time.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:55 pm

and that is telling as well. I think if there is a 5,342 emails going out and of those only 50 decide to tell the company they like that Update. It is telling to me the most whether half those people knew that option existed.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:01 pm

To be fair, it's worth noting that the "like" thing means about as much as it does on Facebook; not bloody much. Especially as it lacks a clear "dislike" equivalent, so it's just as much an indicator of how many people can be arsed to click through.

Glancing over the last couple pages of updates, I'm struck by something; the vast majority seem to hover around 39 likes.

However, they also don't even approach a fraction of the comments, particularly by new people (there have been more individuals commenting on this topic than most of their updates get in comments at all by a factor of 2, roughly).

So assuming there's significant overlap in those 20-40'ish people who 'like' the updates as their baseline of supporters (some of whom are just happy to get info, some of whom would 'like' anything at all), it seems this one is seeing significantly more discussion, and not much more active support.

But that's off the cuff glances, not hard analysis.

And hell, even the "so, there's gonna be waves/delays" update back in January got 53. :-P

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:22 pm

If I really like an update I will hit that "like" option

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:59 pm

It opened lines maybe. I don't think it improved anything. There is 555+ comments on the most recent Update from yesterday and the only ones by Palladium were to diffuse something when a guy called the office and then started drama on the Update page. Wayne stayed long enough to explain his side. I think he may have insulted the guy back, not sure about that part, answered one persons additional question and then supposedly hopped a flight to Vegas. Then when the Press Release went out it has Kevin recommend people check out those pages...which are kind of hostile right now since that was their only Official comments out of the 555+ and there are lots of questions being asked there. I tried to get some conversation going to get people to relax, but they didn't like the answers were basically it is what it is and there are no real plans to change. It is an odd situation.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:08 pm

The funniest/saddest part here is that even those whom are supportive are left saying "look, just wait until the models are in hand" and then people look for information on the delivery and it's mostly people navel gazing and wringing their hands.

Apparently we're now at June/July, for those that missed the comment in that "nearly 600 comment cluster-shenanigans".

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:16 pm

I like oranges, I don't try staring at them though.

Unread post by **NMI** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:08 pm

Moving to the appropriate Robotech Tactics Forum.

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:54 pm

Hrm.

That's... inventive.

Jorel · Unread post by **Jorel** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:02 pm

Either way it served it's purpose to get some discussion and in the end it made little difference and the resulting 2nd Update was even more of a mess than the 1st.

Daniel Stoker · Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:12 am

What was the 2nd update?

Daniel Stoker

Mike1975 · Unread post by **Mike1975** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:33 am

About the molds and process involved, update # 135

Forar · Unread post by **Forar** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:55 am

Yeah.

This began with #134. That's where people grew a little concerned.

#135 was sent out to address those concerns.

In that regard it seems to have seen... mixed results, to put it very politely.

glitterboy2098 · Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:39 pm

#135 tried to explain why they had to design it the way they did.. unless the response was "your right, we're all idiots, we'll redo everything, here, slit my wrists" the response was going to be mixed no matter what.

Kryptt · Unread post by **Kryptt** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:47 pm

It was basically a your wrong were right and if you don't like it tough cookies.

Steve Carroll · Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:24 pm

It really wasn't that. They explained their reasoning behind the decision made. If people don't like that reason, it doesn't mean that they don't care or don't listen. Why don't people realize that?

No matter what. It would be too late to change anything at this point anyway.