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Hotrod wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Ok then, Plan B! Either teleport all of Atlantis' pyramids away (probably not possible, though I know of no rule that says you can't) or destroy them. Impossible, you might say? Not at all! Here's just one method I could plausibly use:

Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine (note: I've done the math; Assuming you need 20 square inches per rifle, you could do this inside a trailer 80 feet long by 20 feet tall)! The biggest pyramids have a maximum of 800,000 MDC, and we're doing an average of 140,000 MDC per twine pull. The pyramid is destroyed in 6 attacks, or 1 melee round; you could also rig up a simple robot with a program to fire as rapidly as possible.

Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system. That's for the biggest types of pyramids. Smaller ones wouldn't require nearly so much firepower.

The Splugorth will still have nexuses, but no magic pyramids for insta-reinforcements. Inducing ley line storms could also add to the party as you teleport in the bug swarms.

And all the splugorth need is 1 or 2 fragmentation mini missiles to blow it up...?

It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

The question that then arises is...
would precognition give sufficient warning of such an attack to thwart it?

Tor wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine

How are you going to get this truck within 2000 feet of the pyramid?

Even if Splynncryth and his High Lords aren't Diabolists, they get enough visitors that some are bound to come through splynn, meaning they could negotiate a permanence ward, so who's to say the pyramids aren't protected by direct attacks by a permanent impenetrable wall of force?

Would you even hit the pyramid? Seems like you would not only be firing without any bonuses whatsoever, but be firing wild, possibly even blind, so in spite of the size you might miss it.

Hotrod wrote:Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system.

I was about to ask about the cost of e-clips but I guess you could go purely based on the storage cell the C-12s come with to skip that.

Wouldn't someone inevitably use Clairvoyance to see this coming and have proper security to block it?

Couldn't a single Kittani robot TW-enchanted with Impervious to Energy jumping in front of your truck opening block this easily?

Regarding the approach: Pyramids are major centers of traffic. Stuff comes and goes all the time. The Splynn picture in Atlantis suggests that any hover-truck could get within range easily.

Regarding the perma-impenetrable wall of force, that would get in the way of commerce. There are probably other ways of protecting the pyramid and making it immune from this kind of attack, but none of them are mentioned in the books. I'm not saying that my plan of attack is plausible (getting a quarter of the psi-stalker population of North America to work in such a tightly-coordinated plan is just not going to happen), but that it is possible.

Regarding aiming: We're not talking about the broadside of a barn here. We're talking about a pyramid the size of a small mountain. I don't think aiming will be an issue. If the guns are mounted in parallel (and that could be tested with SDC setting shots), and the truck is aligned correctly (could be done with a rudimentary siting system), they'll hit the target.

Clairvoyance is no guarantee of seeing a specific attack coming. Yes, the correct preparation against this attack would stop it. It's a surprise attack that would have to be launched simultaneously all over Atlantis' pyramids, and it probably would only work once. After that, if you recover the trucks/guns (with a teleport or something), you might as well issue them to your legions of psi-stalkers or expendable troops.

Again, I'm not saying this is a practical plan. I'm not even saying it's plausible. I'm just saying that invading Atlantis isn't impossible. Very few things are.

eliakon wrote:Just a note on the cauldron....
It is magic mind control. Unless there is an explicit statement that you do NOT get a save, you would get your normal Save vs. Magic (with any bonus for Save vs. Mind Control)

If we use the 80% as a guideline, then you'd need a 17 or higher to save. Of course, some of the city populations have high PE's with the corresponding magic resistance, so it might need to be 18 or higher.

Hotrod wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Ok then, Plan B! Either teleport all of Atlantis' pyramids away (probably not possible, though I know of no rule that says you can't) or destroy them. Impossible, you might say? Not at all! Here's just one method I could plausibly use:

Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine (note: I've done the math; Assuming you need 20 square inches per rifle, you could do this inside a trailer 80 feet long by 20 feet tall)! The biggest pyramids have a maximum of 800,000 MDC, and we're doing an average of 140,000 MDC per twine pull. The pyramid is destroyed in 6 attacks, or 1 melee round; you could also rig up a simple robot with a program to fire as rapidly as possible.

Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system. That's for the biggest types of pyramids. Smaller ones wouldn't require nearly so much firepower.

The Splugorth will still have nexuses, but no magic pyramids for insta-reinforcements. Inducing ley line storms could also add to the party as you teleport in the bug swarms.

And all the splugorth need is 1 or 2 fragmentation mini missiles to blow it up...?

It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Ok then, Plan B! Either teleport all of Atlantis' pyramids away (probably not possible, though I know of no rule that says you can't) or destroy them. Impossible, you might say? Not at all! Here's just one method I could plausibly use:

Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine (note: I've done the math; Assuming you need 20 square inches per rifle, you could do this inside a trailer 80 feet long by 20 feet tall)! The biggest pyramids have a maximum of 800,000 MDC, and we're doing an average of 140,000 MDC per twine pull. The pyramid is destroyed in 6 attacks, or 1 melee round; you could also rig up a simple robot with a program to fire as rapidly as possible.

Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system. That's for the biggest types of pyramids. Smaller ones wouldn't require nearly so much firepower.

The Splugorth will still have nexuses, but no magic pyramids for insta-reinforcements. Inducing ley line storms could also add to the party as you teleport in the bug swarms.

And all the splugorth need is 1 or 2 fragmentation mini missiles to blow it up...?

It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

The question that then arises is...
would precognition give sufficient warning of such an attack to thwart it?

If their precognition were so reliable, the Splugorth would truly be invincible. The clearest canon clairvoyance is the Edict of Planetary Distress, which is about as specific as writing a letter to everyone saying 'Bad stuff is gonna happen soon, guys! Get ready!'

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Ok then, Plan B! Either teleport all of Atlantis' pyramids away (probably not possible, though I know of no rule that says you can't) or destroy them. Impossible, you might say? Not at all! Here's just one method I could plausibly use:

Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine (note: I've done the math; Assuming you need 20 square inches per rifle, you could do this inside a trailer 80 feet long by 20 feet tall)! The biggest pyramids have a maximum of 800,000 MDC, and we're doing an average of 140,000 MDC per twine pull. The pyramid is destroyed in 6 attacks, or 1 melee round; you could also rig up a simple robot with a program to fire as rapidly as possible.

Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system. That's for the biggest types of pyramids. Smaller ones wouldn't require nearly so much firepower.

The Splugorth will still have nexuses, but no magic pyramids for insta-reinforcements. Inducing ley line storms could also add to the party as you teleport in the bug swarms.

And all the splugorth need is 1 or 2 fragmentation mini missiles to blow it up...?

It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Yep! That would do the job. If the Splugorth saw my plan coming and prepared accordingly, it would be a complete disaster, and the pyramid attack plan would just be the first in a string of catastrophes. The invasion force would be killed or captured/enslaved, and the reduction in North America's psi-stalker population would lead to a surge in monsters and the supernatural in North America.

"Possible" doesn't mean fool-proof or even "a good plan." I'm not saying that I would do this. I just resent plot-armor, and Atlantis' ruler seems to have too much. In that vein, Splynncryth is the Denaerys Targaryen of Rifts Earth.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Protection From Energy only reduces damage by half in PF2, but I do notice on RCBp50 that in Rifts it's increased to utter imperviousness, good to keep in mind. Kind of like 'power' changing from doubling to tripling.

Hotrod wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Ok then, Plan B! Either teleport all of Atlantis' pyramids away (probably not possible, though I know of no rule that says you can't) or destroy them. Impossible, you might say? Not at all! Here's just one method I could plausibly use:

Build a very large C-12 rifle rack that stacks and orients 10,000 of these rifles in the same direction, put them inside a big cargo truck, and rig up a system to pull all their triggers simultaneously, pull up next to a pyramid, and start yanking the twine (note: I've done the math; Assuming you need 20 square inches per rifle, you could do this inside a trailer 80 feet long by 20 feet tall)! The biggest pyramids have a maximum of 800,000 MDC, and we're doing an average of 140,000 MDC per twine pull. The pyramid is destroyed in 6 attacks, or 1 melee round; you could also rig up a simple robot with a program to fire as rapidly as possible.

Actually, that would be more plausible than bringing in big cabals of line magic masters. All you'll need is about 200 million credits (20k per rifle times 10k rifles) to buy the rifles and a little more for the truck, rack, and firing system. That's for the biggest types of pyramids. Smaller ones wouldn't require nearly so much firepower.

The Splugorth will still have nexuses, but no magic pyramids for insta-reinforcements. Inducing ley line storms could also add to the party as you teleport in the bug swarms.

And all the splugorth need is 1 or 2 fragmentation mini missiles to blow it up...?

It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Yep! That would do the job. If the Splugorth saw my plan coming and prepared accordingly, it would be a complete disaster, and the pyramid attack plan would just be the first in a string of catastrophes. The invasion force would be killed or captured/enslaved, and the reduction in North America's psi-stalker population would lead to a surge in monsters and the supernatural in North America.

"Possible" doesn't mean fool-proof or even "a good plan." I'm not saying that I would do this. I just resent plot-armor, and Atlantis' ruler seems to have too much. In that vein, Splynncryth is the Denaerys Targaryen of Rifts Earth.

Honestly, I wasn't thinking on the lines of "They put that ward in place specifically because spys/precog told them to expect it", so much as "They probablly slap protection from X" wards on everything as a basic precuation because it costs them next to nothing and offers so much protection".

Basically, I just assume established bad guys use their resources to take elementary precations, not foiling the PC's in particular. Think about it. if the US military had Wards, don't you think WE'D slap them on the white house, and any other really important building?

I don't think it's a case of "Plot armor" to assume "The bad guys probablly use resources available to take precautions to protect themselves" after all, temporal raiders love raiding Atlantis, so they have a lot of experiance in fighting people who teleport-drop stuff around or sneak stuff in that have nothing to do with PC's.

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Protection From Energy only reduces damage by half in PF2, but I do notice on RCBp50 that in Rifts it's increased to utter imperviousness, good to keep in mind. Kind of like 'power' changing from doubling to tripling.

I think some wards are simply buffed on Rifts earth because magic is so much stronger here.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Yep! That would do the job. If the Splugorth saw my plan coming and prepared accordingly, it would be a complete disaster, and the pyramid attack plan would just be the first in a string of catastrophes. The invasion force would be killed or captured/enslaved, and the reduction in North America's psi-stalker population would lead to a surge in monsters and the supernatural in North America.

"Possible" doesn't mean fool-proof or even "a good plan." I'm not saying that I would do this. I just resent plot-armor, and Atlantis' ruler seems to have too much. In that vein, Splynncryth is the Denaerys Targaryen of Rifts Earth.

Honestly, I wasn't thinking on the lines of "They put that ward in place specifically because spys/precog told them to expect it", so much as "They probablly slap protection from X" wards on everything as a basic precuation because it costs them next to nothing and offers so much protection".

Basically, I just assume established bad guys use their resources to take elementary precations, not foiling the PC's in particular. Think about it. if the US military had Wards, don't you think WE'D slap them on the white house, and any other really important building?

I don't think it's a case of "Plot armor" to assume "The bad guys probablly use resources available to take precautions to protect themselves" after all, temporal raiders love raiding Atlantis, so they have a lot of experiance in fighting people who teleport-drop stuff around or sneak stuff in that have nothing to do with PC's.

Interesting... a single energy immunization ward renders an entire mountain invincible? What's to stop such a ward from protecting Planet Earth?

In any case, you could simply apply the same principle to just about any common weapon system on Rifts Earth of similar dimensions and range.

Hotrod wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Hotrod wrote:It's all about surprise. You park this thing somewhere handy, concealing its cargo so they don't see it coming. By the time they react, it's too late. This is more of a surprise demolition system than a weapon.

Unless a diabolist put a permanent Protection from Energy ward on it, in which case it'd do...no damage

Yep! That would do the job. If the Splugorth saw my plan coming and prepared accordingly, it would be a complete disaster, and the pyramid attack plan would just be the first in a string of catastrophes. The invasion force would be killed or captured/enslaved, and the reduction in North America's psi-stalker population would lead to a surge in monsters and the supernatural in North America.

"Possible" doesn't mean fool-proof or even "a good plan." I'm not saying that I would do this. I just resent plot-armor, and Atlantis' ruler seems to have too much. In that vein, Splynncryth is the Denaerys Targaryen of Rifts Earth.

Honestly, I wasn't thinking on the lines of "They put that ward in place specifically because spys/precog told them to expect it", so much as "They probablly slap protection from X" wards on everything as a basic precuation because it costs them next to nothing and offers so much protection".

Basically, I just assume established bad guys use their resources to take elementary precations, not foiling the PC's in particular. Think about it. if the US military had Wards, don't you think WE'D slap them on the white house, and any other really important building?

I don't think it's a case of "Plot armor" to assume "The bad guys probablly use resources available to take precautions to protect themselves" after all, temporal raiders love raiding Atlantis, so they have a lot of experiance in fighting people who teleport-drop stuff around or sneak stuff in that have nothing to do with PC's.

Interesting... a single energy immunization ward renders an entire mountain invincible? What's to stop such a ward from protecting Planet Earth?

In any case, you could simply apply the same principle to just about any common weapon system on Rifts Earth of similar dimensions and range.

A moutian, or an earth, is not a single object, it is a large pile of many many seperate objects, each of which track damage seperately. In most cases, extremely large objects, like moutians, or city walls, have an "MDC/SDC per x square feet", thus permitting weapons to blast holes in individual parts without having to destroy the entire walls collective MDC, at which point the entire thing crumbles to dust at once

Ordinarly, this is how pyramids SHOULD have been statted--MDC per X square feet. thus someone training a few thousand infantry rifles at it wouldn't be much more threat than doing it at the walls of chi-town--at most you'd do local damage, but you'd need concentrated, extended effort to destroy the entire thing, just like tearing down ALL of a city wall is a feat that can take months to accomplish.

Wards, coincidently, work like this. you can write wards on given SECTIONS of a large building, but it takes a fanstical amount of time and rare resources to ward every single bit of a city wall or fortress, so people don't do it. you can only ward one section at a time

However, if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Personally, I'd rather houserule that pyramids have MDC per 10 square feet like most fortresses. that solves both ward silliness and energy battery silliness in one fell swoop. it means your huge array of lasers could blast a hole to pour things through, but wouldn't actually cause an entire moutian to burst at once.

basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you want one relatively small battery of laser rifles (to it's size) destroy the entire pyramid many MANY times larger than it because it only has one MDC pool, then i'll say one ward can protect the one MDC pool.

If you say it's actually divided into a lot of wall-sections, then i'll grant your device could blast a hole in any one section reliably and it'd be too much for them to ward every bit of it. but it wouldn't destory the entire thing unless it had about a week of constant firing to get ALL the sections. Or had the demolitions skill and could tell which sections could be destroyed to cause the entire thing to collapse in on itself (Demolitions: not just good for bombs!)

boxee wrote: Well that is better odds then billions upon billions. I can see a million in reserve, but it would take time to get them all there, maybe hours, maybe days? Much more reasonable odd though.

It might take hours to get a million there, sure. Days with dimensional transporting with gates a pyramids? No way.

Though Atlantis has a garrison in place anyway, it's gotta be pretty scary as is. If fighting is already going on, by the time the garrison forces need the reinforcements, they'll be on hand.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:A moutian, or an earth, is not a single object, it is a large pile of many many seperate objects, each of which track damage seperately. In most cases, extremely large objects, like moutians, or city walls, have an "MDC/SDC per x square feet", thus permitting weapons to blast holes in individual parts without having to destroy the entire walls collective MDC, at which point the entire thing crumbles to dust at once

Ordinarly, this is how pyramids SHOULD have been statted--MDC per X square feet. thus someone training a few thousand infantry rifles at it wouldn't be much more threat than doing it at the walls of chi-town--at most you'd do local damage, but you'd need concentrated, extended effort to destroy the entire thing, just like tearing down ALL of a city wall is a feat that can take months to accomplish.

Wards, coincidently, work like this. you can write wards on given SECTIONS of a large building, but it takes a fanstical amount of time and rare resources to ward every single bit of a city wall or fortress, so people don't do it. you can only ward one section at a time

However, if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Personally, I'd rather houserule that pyramids have MDC per 10 square feet like most fortresses. that solves both ward silliness and energy battery silliness in one fell swoop. it means your huge array of lasers could blast a hole to pour things through, but wouldn't actually cause an entire moutian to burst at once.

basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you want one relatively small battery of laser rifles (to it's size) destroy the entire pyramid many MANY times larger than it because it only has one MDC pool, then i'll say one ward can protect the one MDC pool.

If you say it's actually divided into a lot of wall-sections, then i'll grant your device could blast a hole in any one section reliably and it'd be too much for them to ward every bit of it. but it wouldn't destory the entire thing unless it had about a week of constant firing to get ALL the sections.

Well you have to remember that pyramids ARE a single object, a very large magical item constructed in order to provide certain abilities with one of the main features storing and providing PPE for mages, at least those built on Ley Lines or Nexus Points. A regular non-magical one I can see treating as a 'damage per section' kind of thing but the magical pyramids are single items so should have a single MDC, which when depleted while it hasn't actually smashed it to rubble necessarily has destroyed it at a magic item (can't remember if they blow up or not when their MDC is depleted, would be a good option to add to them to reflect that once they're damaged enough they suffer an explosive release of energy due to the containment abilities of the pyramid being so suddenly eliminated).

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:A moutian, or an earth, is not a single object, it is a large pile of many many seperate objects, each of which track damage seperately. In most cases, extremely large objects, like moutians, or city walls, have an "MDC/SDC per x square feet", thus permitting weapons to blast holes in individual parts without having to destroy the entire walls collective MDC, at which point the entire thing crumbles to dust at once

Ordinarly, this is how pyramids SHOULD have been statted--MDC per X square feet. thus someone training a few thousand infantry rifles at it wouldn't be much more threat than doing it at the walls of chi-town--at most you'd do local damage, but you'd need concentrated, extended effort to destroy the entire thing, just like tearing down ALL of a city wall is a feat that can take months to accomplish.

Wards, coincidently, work like this. you can write wards on given SECTIONS of a large building, but it takes a fanstical amount of time and rare resources to ward every single bit of a city wall or fortress, so people don't do it. you can only ward one section at a time

However, if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Personally, I'd rather houserule that pyramids have MDC per 10 square feet like most fortresses. that solves both ward silliness and energy battery silliness in one fell swoop. it means your huge array of lasers could blast a hole to pour things through, but wouldn't actually cause an entire moutian to burst at once.

basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you want one relatively small battery of laser rifles (to it's size) destroy the entire pyramid many MANY times larger than it because it only has one MDC pool, then i'll say one ward can protect the one MDC pool.

If you say it's actually divided into a lot of wall-sections, then i'll grant your device could blast a hole in any one section reliably and it'd be too much for them to ward every bit of it. but it wouldn't destory the entire thing unless it had about a week of constant firing to get ALL the sections.

Well you have to remember that pyramids ARE a single object, a very large magical item constructed in order to provide certain abilities with one of the main features storing and providing PPE for mages, at least those built on Ley Lines or Nexus Points. A regular non-magical one I can see treating as a 'damage per section' kind of thing but the magical pyramids are single items so should have a single MDC, which when depleted while it hasn't actually smashed it to rubble necessarily has destroyed it at a magic item (can't remember if they blow up or not when their MDC is depleted, would be a good option to add to them to reflect that once they're damaged enough they suffer an explosive release of energy due to the containment abilities of the pyramid being so suddenly eliminated).

Then they can be protected via a ward phrase like any other magical object

As I said, the "MDC by section" thing is a personal houserule. I don't claim it cannon.

I DO claim that if they are just one really big magic item that is otherwise treated like magic items, then a single ward phrase guards the whole thing. after all, if it's just one big magic item that is treated like one regardless of the size, that goes for wards too. I think it's silly, but that's just my opinion.

Tor wrote:SDF-3? Is it that flying thing at the top of page 21? Which pic should I compare it to in Robotech materials?

Actually it looks like the SDF-1(maybe 2). On page 20. In the background are three buildings with spires, the middle one is the SDF in robot form.

AzathothXy wrote:

Tor wrote:SDF-3? Is it that flying thing at the top of page 21? Which pic should I compare it to in Robotech materials?

Actually it looks like the SDF-1(maybe 2). On page 20. In the background are three buildings with spires, the middle one is the SDF in robot form.

Well, I'll be... Yup, it does look like SDF-1 in Robot Form, where it landed in Monument City near the end of the Macross Eps. Is that one of the Kevin Long pieces of Artwork? Because it does look like his style, & the whole scene does kind of remind me of Monument City.

As the Minion war weakens everyone, it can also give a good excuse to lower the numbers back down to reasonable numbers. This is world wide, not picking on Atlantis. Since all battles were out in the open during Minion War, it is more likely "other" major forces saw what was happening and will stake out their claim.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:A moutian, or an earth, is not a single object, it is a large pile of many many seperate objects, each of which track damage seperately. In most cases, extremely large objects, like moutians, or city walls, have an "MDC/SDC per x square feet", thus permitting weapons to blast holes in individual parts without having to destroy the entire walls collective MDC, at which point the entire thing crumbles to dust at once

Ordinarly, this is how pyramids SHOULD have been statted--MDC per X square feet. thus someone training a few thousand infantry rifles at it wouldn't be much more threat than doing it at the walls of chi-town--at most you'd do local damage, but you'd need concentrated, extended effort to destroy the entire thing, just like tearing down ALL of a city wall is a feat that can take months to accomplish.

Wards, coincidently, work like this. you can write wards on given SECTIONS of a large building, but it takes a fanstical amount of time and rare resources to ward every single bit of a city wall or fortress, so people don't do it. you can only ward one section at a time

However, if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Personally, I'd rather houserule that pyramids have MDC per 10 square feet like most fortresses. that solves both ward silliness and energy battery silliness in one fell swoop. it means your huge array of lasers could blast a hole to pour things through, but wouldn't actually cause an entire moutian to burst at once.

basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you want one relatively small battery of laser rifles (to it's size) destroy the entire pyramid many MANY times larger than it because it only has one MDC pool, then i'll say one ward can protect the one MDC pool.

If you say it's actually divided into a lot of wall-sections, then i'll grant your device could blast a hole in any one section reliably and it'd be too much for them to ward every bit of it. but it wouldn't destory the entire thing unless it had about a week of constant firing to get ALL the sections.

Well you have to remember that pyramids ARE a single object, a very large magical item constructed in order to provide certain abilities with one of the main features storing and providing PPE for mages, at least those built on Ley Lines or Nexus Points. A regular non-magical one I can see treating as a 'damage per section' kind of thing but the magical pyramids are single items so should have a single MDC, which when depleted while it hasn't actually smashed it to rubble necessarily has destroyed it at a magic item (can't remember if they blow up or not when their MDC is depleted, would be a good option to add to them to reflect that once they're damaged enough they suffer an explosive release of energy due to the containment abilities of the pyramid being so suddenly eliminated).

Then they can be protected via a ward phrase like any other magical object

As I said, the "MDC by section" thing is a personal houserule. I don't claim it cannon.

I DO claim that if they are just one really big magic item that is otherwise treated like magic items, then a single ward phrase guards the whole thing. after all, if it's just one big magic item that is treated like one regardless of the size, that goes for wards too. I think it's silly, but that's just my opinion.

Planets ARE objects by definition. The idea of an object being singlular is a pretty arbitrary one. A sword has a blade, a pommel, a crossguard, and a handle. Would you need to ward each individual piece? Even the handle may have many strips of leather. If you break it down further, you have many single crystals in the metal and many molecules in the crystals. What you and I might consider a single object is pretty arbitrary, but I digress.

The basic problem is that Rifts wasn't built to handle objects and structures like this. Mega damage weapons are meant to be able to inflict destruction on a much more massive scale than today's artillery. Even so, I find it hard to visualize a scenario in which a truck full of ray guns destroys a mountain.

Be that as it may, you can't have your cake and eat it, too, Nekira. If you're going strictly by canon, then my truck ray gun array should work, because there is no canon reference on Atlantis' pyramids enjoying such protections. I'm simply stating what I could do, and you're stating what the Splugorth could do to counteract it. Unless you have a reference for pyramids being warded as you describe, then your objection isn't canon.

(Of course, a truck gun array isn't canon either; it's just a cheesy way of taking advantage of rules as written, the linear nature of the damage system, and the fact that damage and combat in RIFTS was never designed to scale this way)

Hotrod wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:A moutian, or an earth, is not a single object, it is a large pile of many many seperate objects, each of which track damage seperately. In most cases, extremely large objects, like moutians, or city walls, have an "MDC/SDC per x square feet", thus permitting weapons to blast holes in individual parts without having to destroy the entire walls collective MDC, at which point the entire thing crumbles to dust at once

Ordinarly, this is how pyramids SHOULD have been statted--MDC per X square feet. thus someone training a few thousand infantry rifles at it wouldn't be much more threat than doing it at the walls of chi-town--at most you'd do local damage, but you'd need concentrated, extended effort to destroy the entire thing, just like tearing down ALL of a city wall is a feat that can take months to accomplish.

Wards, coincidently, work like this. you can write wards on given SECTIONS of a large building, but it takes a fanstical amount of time and rare resources to ward every single bit of a city wall or fortress, so people don't do it. you can only ward one section at a time

However, if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Personally, I'd rather houserule that pyramids have MDC per 10 square feet like most fortresses. that solves both ward silliness and energy battery silliness in one fell swoop. it means your huge array of lasers could blast a hole to pour things through, but wouldn't actually cause an entire moutian to burst at once.

basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. if you want one relatively small battery of laser rifles (to it's size) destroy the entire pyramid many MANY times larger than it because it only has one MDC pool, then i'll say one ward can protect the one MDC pool.

If you say it's actually divided into a lot of wall-sections, then i'll grant your device could blast a hole in any one section reliably and it'd be too much for them to ward every bit of it. but it wouldn't destory the entire thing unless it had about a week of constant firing to get ALL the sections.

Well you have to remember that pyramids ARE a single object, a very large magical item constructed in order to provide certain abilities with one of the main features storing and providing PPE for mages, at least those built on Ley Lines or Nexus Points. A regular non-magical one I can see treating as a 'damage per section' kind of thing but the magical pyramids are single items so should have a single MDC, which when depleted while it hasn't actually smashed it to rubble necessarily has destroyed it at a magic item (can't remember if they blow up or not when their MDC is depleted, would be a good option to add to them to reflect that once they're damaged enough they suffer an explosive release of energy due to the containment abilities of the pyramid being so suddenly eliminated).

Then they can be protected via a ward phrase like any other magical object

As I said, the "MDC by section" thing is a personal houserule. I don't claim it cannon.

I DO claim that if they are just one really big magic item that is otherwise treated like magic items, then a single ward phrase guards the whole thing. after all, if it's just one big magic item that is treated like one regardless of the size, that goes for wards too. I think it's silly, but that's just my opinion.

Planets ARE objects by definition. The idea of an object being singlular is a pretty arbitrary one. A sword has a blade, a pommel, a crossguard, and a handle. Would you need to ward each individual piece? Even the handle may have many strips of leather. If you break it down further, you have many single crystals in the metal and many molecules in the crystals. What you and I might consider a single object is pretty arbitrary, but I digress.

It may be arbitrary, but the rule about building walls being divided into 10x10 sections isn't my houserule, it's cannon.

The basic problem is that Rifts wasn't built to handle objects and structures like this. Mega damage weapons are meant to be able to inflict destruction on a much more massive scale than today's artillery. Even so, I find it hard to visualize a scenario in which a truck full of ray guns destroys a mountain.

Good thing I never suggested it could?

Be that as it may, you can't have your cake and eat it, too, Nekira. If you're going strictly by canon, then my truck ray gun array should work, because there is no canon reference on Atlantis' pyramids enjoying such protections. I'm simply stating what I could do, and you're stating what the Splugorth could do to counteract it. Unless you have a reference for pyramids being warded as you describe, then your objection isn't canon.

(Of course, a truck gun array isn't canon either; it's just a cheesy way of taking advantage of rules as written, the linear nature of the damage system, and the fact that damage and combat in RIFTS was never designed to scale this way)

I never claimed it was cannon that they did, only that it would work cannonically IF they did, so what's the problem?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It may be arbitrary, but the rule about building walls being divided into 10x10 sections isn't my houserule, it's cannon.

What's the book/page number? Just curious. Of course, a pyramid isn't like a normal building, where you knock down the outer walls and the whole thing comes down. Calculating its MDC by dividing it up into exposed surface area sections is a little wonky. A volumetric distribution makes more sense to me, but any way you break it down, the scaling is going to be weird.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

The basic problem is that Rifts wasn't built to handle objects and structures like this. Mega damage weapons are meant to be able to inflict destruction on a much more massive scale than today's artillery. Even so, I find it hard to visualize a scenario in which a truck full of ray guns destroys a mountain.

Good thing I never suggested it could?

Yep! I wasn't trying to drag you into my silly idea, just pointing out that it seemed a bit far-fetched, even if it might be allowable under canon rules.

Be that as it may, you can't have your cake and eat it, too, Nekira. If you're going strictly by canon, then my truck ray gun array should work, because there is no canon reference on Atlantis' pyramids enjoying such protections. I'm simply stating what I could do, and you're stating what the Splugorth could do to counteract it. Unless you have a reference for pyramids being warded as you describe, then your objection isn't canon.

(Of course, a truck gun array isn't canon either; it's just a cheesy way of taking advantage of rules as written, the linear nature of the damage system, and the fact that damage and combat in RIFTS was never designed to scale this way)

I never claimed it was cannon that they did, only that it would work cannonically IF they did, so what's the problem?[/quote]

I guess there's no problem at all, although this discussion prodded me to check some references about wards, which raises an interesting issue I hadn't pondered before: In Conversion Book 1, Protection From Energy wards protect people against energy attacks. It doesn't mention objects. P2E specifies that "protection from" wards are placed on people. I don't see anything in either books suggesting that "protection from" wards can apply their protections to objects.

Well, then Splynny will just have to make indestructible rune pyramids.

Would love to see a side-by-side comparison of this SDF stuff...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:if Pyramids track MDC as a single object, and the entire thing is intact and functioning until all MDC is depelated, then it stands to reason that if they are tracked like only a single main body section, then one ward protects the whole thing. Yes, it's amazingly silly.

Or amazingly awesome and another advantage to having a pyramid. The downside of such a strange magical trait being that someone busting through the side wall effectively vapourizes the ground under your feet.

Hotrod wrote:Conversion Book 1, Protection From Energy wards protect people against energy attacks. It doesn't mention objects. P2E specifies that "protection from" wards are placed on people. I don't see anything in either books suggesting that "protection from" wards can apply their protections to objects.

PRPGp105 in left column under Protection says "anyone wearing an active symbol or in a protection area" but then in right column under "How Wards Work" says "Wards can be carved or drawn on floors, doors, walls" .. "and just about everything else including people" .. "They can protect or affect the one person or item it has been inscribed upon or it can an effect an entire area and all who enter it"

PF2p133 strangely does list the effects of protection wards under 'wards on people', oddly enough. Having trouble finding supportive quotes here.

Perhaps we could find some examples of protection wards using to guard objects instead of living beings, if they exist?

Alrik Vas wrote:

boxee wrote: Well that is better odds then billions upon billions. I can see a million in reserve, but it would take time to get them all there, maybe hours, maybe days? Much more reasonable odd though.

It might take hours to get a million there, sure. Days with dimensional transporting with gates a pyramids? No way.

Though Atlantis has a garrison in place anyway, it's gotta be pretty scary as is. If fighting is already going on, by the time the garrison forces need the reinforcements, they'll be on hand.

Not so sure when you are dealing with numbers in that size it may take days. If the assault was sudden enough maybe they could close the gate down?

The half million high lords would really make messing with Atlantis hard. They all know all spells up to 13. That's a half million mages with hundreds of PPE able to summon shadow beasts, create mummies/zombies, make superior protection circles, teleport:lesser + second sight, etc. They can all astrally project too... and restrictions on silent spellcasting in astral form are a bit hazy to me.

Yea the numbers are all too high in rifts as far as populations go. Basically you cant affect the setting in any real way. Minion War could fix the numbers if they allow it to.

Well, there's always just mass-summoning of Death Demons and dropping them in the place and they'll go around biting everyone and making them into death demons... that could cause a lot of trouble.

The numbers in rifts aren't that bad, no. Not generally. The numbers on Atlantis specifically? Oh yah. The numbers that can stand for Atlantis that aren't even there until needed? Beyond silly.

Alrik Vas wrote:The numbers in rifts aren't that bad, no. Not generally. The numbers on Atlantis specifically? Oh yah. The numbers that can stand for Atlantis that aren't even there until needed? Beyond silly.

I wouldn't say they are bad or silly
I would say that they are a good representation of what a multi-dimensional force that holds scores of worlds would have....
Think about our ONE (modern real world) Earth.
Now think about how many soldiers there are under arms on this ONE planet
Now think about how many police there are...
Now tell me that someone who is hundreds of times larger should have a force orders of magnitude SMALLER....
(the silly numbers are the minuscule forces in Phase World where nations that control millions and millions of worlds....have militaries smaller than our RW earth. ?)

Well, when you get multi-dimensional into it, and think about how you could have multiples of the same person serving you in different realities, and since you are a super-dimensional overlord and can bring them all in the same place, and the Megaverse (TM, Restricted) is an endless place with untold amounts of parallel realities, maybe the splugorth make 100,000 man armies that are all the same dude just for fun?

Really, from an academic standpoint on how the palladium megaverse works, I totally agree, eliakon. Though really, to tell a story you want drama. Being crushed underfoot by something that is unbeatable, while dramatic at the beginning of a story to show how scary the bad guys are, doesn't lend itself well when at the end of the story the players/readers go, "oh, they were just unstoppable...ok...can we start a new game?"

It's all backdrop. While you might be able to create a campaign around building a coalition to defeat one of the main powers in the game, conducting guerrilla warfare or terrorist actions against their assets, or even use them as the supporting agency for your PC group, they're not really intended to be valid targets for direct assault.

I think to effectively do that, you'd have to use greater gods or alien intelligences with their own pandimensional empires as player characters and your actions would be conducted at planetary or larger scales. It would make for a decent board game, but its a little removed from the action for a role playing game.

I can agree to that for the most part. Though if the PC's are truly powerful (even if they aren't Supernatural Intelligence-level beings) they might be the core members of whatever surgical strike force directly attacks Splynny's sanctum and keeps him from escaping long enough to bind him, kill him or force him to surrender. It could be epic, or it could be just really drawn out, hehe.

Um yea, bad ideas, you should as players always be able to make a difference in the game at large. So from any real standpoint it is a great read, but stops short of actually being playable.

The whole he is not really evil wink wink nudge nudge thing is not right. "Not work well with others" seems opposite of what is happening. So alignment is either wrong or alter alignment is being used.

boxee wrote:Um yea, bad ideas, you should as players always be able to make a difference in the game at large. So from any real standpoint it is a great read, but stops short of actually being playable.

The whole he is not really evil wink wink nudge nudge thing is not right. "Not work well with others" seems opposite of what is happening. So alignment is either wrong or alter alignment is being used.

I think the argument isn't so much "The players can't make a meaningful difference vs. something like atlantis". it's more "The way atlantis is now, a head on assult is not feasable". This is not to say I think the players shouldn't be able to take atlantis down!!! it just means they have to be more clever than just trying to out-gun them head on. Assassinating Splyncryth, while incredibly difficult, is still theoretically possible for a player group powerful enough. other possibilities include finding some way to shut down the pyramids from working, making bringing in reinforcements more difficult, covering all of atlantis in a giant ley line storm (biomancers speed-growing mellenium trees, maybe), or prehaps getting other extradimensional allies to help.

I mean, come on, Aheriman has cannonically conquered a splurgorthian empire while still trapped in a dimensional prison, simply by using what few cracks there are to contact witches and shifters for pacts to make minions and forging alliances with other extradimensional powers. The splurgorth are not invincible. It's just that a great deal of their power rests in the fact that most people are too scared to try. Their reputation is their strongest weapon, and they know how to use it.

boxee wrote:Um yea, bad ideas, you should as players always be able to make a difference in the game at large. So from any real standpoint it is a great read, but stops short of actually being playable.

It can be playable. The scenario that Say has selected, a direct assault on Atlantis by human forces, is doomed to failure but a group of players spending a campaign cultivating the pandimensional alliances necessary to assault Splynncryth's empire on multiple fronts could work. Trillions would perish, entire solar systems would be laid to waste, and in the end it's likely to be a Pyrrhic victory; but the players would make a difference in the game at large. Though they probably wouldn't change the political landscape of Earth very much in the greater scheme of things.

flatline wrote:

Bill wrote:

flatline wrote:Does Atlantis really have access to more troops than the entire population of the 3 galaxies? Please remember that the 3 galaxies contains several splugorth.

I think we need to treat "Zillions" as figurative language rather than literal zillions.

I think we need to consider the multi-dimensional nature of a splugorth empire. All splugorth empires have populations greater than the three galaxies because they span across multiple realities. It's a terrifying notion really. Empires so vast and populous that no single world could mount a meaningful resistance and only empires of equal stature can even meaningfully negotiate. Allegorically, I think it's not unlike the cold-war era "superpowers" of earth. Small, militarily insignificant nations continued to exist mostly because they had nothing that Nato, the Warsaw Pact, or China cared to fight with each other over.

So the Splugorth who have been defeated in the 3 galaxies or whose empires are being whittled down have "zillions" of troops in reserve that they won't use for some reason?

I don't think so.

It could be possible, now that I think about it, is that "zillions" refers to all splurgorth's Kydians, over all dimensions, total, and any one given splurgorth will "only" have billions or trillions or quadrillions depending on the size of their empires. looking more into it, Splyncryth only controls 4 planets in addition to Atlantis, that would put a logical cap on his total forces somewhere in the tens to hundreds of billion range, depending on how heavily they are populated. (I do assume that Kittani technology does permit them to support far more population on a given planet than humans can/do, as well as the potential for space colonies in systems they control. Pack them in like sardines)

Considering Splynn, a young splurgorth, only has 4 worlds, the 3 galaxies splurgorth have a few dozen worlds each, while some splurgorth are said to command entire dimensions, I think it's a safe bet to say the size of a splurgorthian empire can vary wildly.

I still say minion war is the way to fix the problems with populations in the rifts earth setting. Atlantis is on their target list, so after all is said and done different forces take parts of the Atlantis continent ? This would be a step in the right direction for the setting IMO. Even if the forces were evil it would not be united.

boxee wrote:I still say minion war is the way to fix the problems with populations in the rifts earth setting. Atlantis is on their target list, so after all is said and done different forces take parts of the Atlantis continent ? This would be a step in the right direction for the setting IMO. Even if the forces were evil it would not be united.

Why would this be a step in the right direction?
What is wrong with there being governments that are so large that a group of PCs cant take it out?
The CS cant be stopped by a PC group
The NGR cant be stopped by a PC group
The CCW cant be stopped by a PC group
Why should a AI (a being who is, for all intents and purposes a god) be able to be destroyed by a frontal assault?
This isn't WWII where a force that was numerically larger (the Allies) surround and invade a smaller force (the Axis)....
This is more of the Rebellion fighting The Empire....
The Rebellion did not try to blow away the Empire in fleet actions...they snuck around, used steath and spies and PCs to find out the one secret weakness.....and then exploited that in an all or nothing do or die raid (combined with several feints and multiple PC lead operations)

eliakon wrote:

boxee wrote:I still say minion war is the way to fix the problems with populations in the rifts earth setting. Atlantis is on their target list, so after all is said and done different forces take parts of the Atlantis continent ? This would be a step in the right direction for the setting IMO. Even if the forces were evil it would not be united.

Why would this be a step in the right direction?
What is wrong with there being governments that are so large that a group of PCs cant take it out?
The CS cant be stopped by a PC group
The NGR cant be stopped by a PC group
The CCW cant be stopped by a PC group
Why should a AI (a being who is, for all intents and purposes a god) be able to be destroyed by a frontal assault?
This isn't WWII where a force that was numerically larger (the Allies) surround and invade a smaller force (the Axis)....
This is more of the Rebellion fighting The Empire....
The Rebellion did not try to blow away the Empire in fleet actions...they snuck around, used steath and spies and PCs to find out the one secret weakness.....and then exploited that in an all or nothing do or die raid (combined with several feints and multiple PC lead operations)

It is far easier to take out the other powers listed other then CCW. As for it being a god, look at the vampire intelligences they can be taken out after alot of work, it does not work vs Atlantis.

boxee wrote:

eliakon wrote:

boxee wrote:I still say minion war is the way to fix the problems with populations in the rifts earth setting. Atlantis is on their target list, so after all is said and done different forces take parts of the Atlantis continent ? This would be a step in the right direction for the setting IMO. Even if the forces were evil it would not be united.

Why would this be a step in the right direction?
What is wrong with there being governments that are so large that a group of PCs cant take it out?
The CS cant be stopped by a PC group
The NGR cant be stopped by a PC group
The CCW cant be stopped by a PC group
Why should a AI (a being who is, for all intents and purposes a god) be able to be destroyed by a frontal assault?
This isn't WWII where a force that was numerically larger (the Allies) surround and invade a smaller force (the Axis)....
This is more of the Rebellion fighting The Empire....
The Rebellion did not try to blow away the Empire in fleet actions...they snuck around, used steath and spies and PCs to find out the one secret weakness.....and then exploited that in an all or nothing do or die raid (combined with several feints and multiple PC lead operations)

It is far easier to take out the other powers listed other then CCW. As for it being a god, look at the vampire intelligences they can be taken out after alot of work, it does not work vs Atlantis.

Yep a LOT of work....
Which may fail...
And still requires dealing with their minions (who can be made in bulk, are very powerful...)
But yeah...I visualize a Splugorth as being more like the CCW than like some VI
I mean Splycryth (who is a weak, minor Splugorth) rules four PLANETS. Most of the VIs we see rule a tiny bit of one country....
Its like comparing Jamacia to the USSR....

So Atlantis currently remains FOR REAL UNBEATABLE, unlike the Coalition with its creators favorite immunity.

say652 wrote:So Atlantis currently remains FOR REAL UNBEATABLE, unlike the Coalition with its creators favorite immunity.

Depends on what you mean.
Can you just crash in the front door with a bunch of troops and win in a straight up fight? No
Can you use guile and strategy to figure out weaknesses, co-ordinate strikes, assassinate key targets and then once things are in chaos and confusion swoop in with that huge army and route things? Sure

But yes, if you want to just beat them in a straight up slug-fest your going to need to bring an equally huge force to the table.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Aheriman has cannonically conquered a splurgorthian empire while still trapped in a dimensional prison, simply by using what few cracks there are to contact witches and shifters for pacts to make minions and forging alliances with other extradimensional powers.

Can't seem to notice this in Pantheons/Mercs, is it described in a later book?

A single Splugorth could tussle up most Pantheons, not kill them all but definitely put some damage on them.

By itself.


Superior Alien tech.
Zoo of Dangerous monsters.
Mages from all over the Megaverse.

A population of Powerful Supernatural Intelligences.


Ok, um i don't see them being truly defeated, ever.

eliakon wrote:

say652 wrote:So Atlantis currently remains FOR REAL UNBEATABLE, unlike the Coalition with its creators favorite immunity.

Depends on what you mean.
Can you just crash in the front door with a bunch of troops and win in a straight up fight? No
Can you use guile and strategy to figure out weaknesses, co-ordinate strikes, assassinate key targets and then once things are in chaos and confusion swoop in with that huge army and route things? Sure

But yes, if you want to just beat them in a straight up slug-fest your going to need to bring an equally huge force to the table.

Part of the problem is there are NO key targets to take out. You killed high lord Zed, LMAO I just bring in one of the other million high lords to take his place. Like I said if you actually lower the numbers he has and can call upon, using minion war as an excuse, then the fight can be won, otherwise its a good read but that is as far as it goes.

say652 wrote:So Atlantis currently remains FOR REAL UNBEATABLE, unlike the Coalition with its creators favorite immunity.

Imo pretty much yes. Almost limitless number in minions. lots of mdc. A combined forced that has tech, psionics and magic. Large amount of resources. Can it be done yes. You better expect it to be a suicide mission because if you lose you will be hunted down to the ends of the universe and beyond.

Lets create a race suitable for combating them.

say652 wrote:Lets create a race suitable for combating them.

super saiyan

say652 wrote:Lets create a race suitable for combating them.

The one from phase world with death star ships that have a crew of 1. Think they could destroy Atlantis(and the rest of earth).

If it is about resources it would take another transdimentional force coming to earth to do it.

boxee wrote:Um yea, bad ideas, you should as players always be able to make a difference in the game at large. So from any real standpoint it is a great read, but stops short of actually being playable.

I think the setting should be designed to be in an unstable equilibrium so that PCs can shift the balance of power either way. This is why I hate it when the authors advance the time line.

However, I don't believe that PCs should be able to destroy significant regional powers on their own without first becoming regional powers themselves or enlisting the help of other regional powers.

Blue_Lion wrote:

say652 wrote:Lets create a race suitable for combating them.

The one from phase world with death star ships that have a crew of 1. Think they could destroy Atlantis(and the rest of earth).

If it is about resources it would take another transdimentional force coming to earth to do it.

Or the Mechanoids (full-on), who literally have the power to carve up planets. 'course Earth is now gone.

Then again I'm sure there are other Sploogies who would love to take Rifts Earth off Splyn's hands. Though here you've just changed one Sploogie for another.