Minions

[eliakon]

However, rank aside, it says they can receive freedom as a reward, so I posit those are the ones ranked above slave in the chart.

World Book Atlantis: Page 18 clearly states all achievements of any but the Elite Minions, which the Kitanni are definitely NOT, are an illusion.

Not sure what you mean about achievements but did underline the "freedom within the Splugorth society is an illusion" bit.

Good. And since illusion is pretty much the opposite of reality someone with the illusion of freedom would be what?

Sorry that isn't a slave. Unless you can prove that there actually exists some form of freedom at ALL, its ALL illusion.

That doesn't matter. Freedom is always an illusion. There is never such a thing as omnipotent perfect freedom. We're all slaves to the laws of nature for example, to the need for resources. There's only relative amounts of it. You can call freedom an illusion under every single society that exists today on Earth.

Freedom being illusory doesn't mean those with less of it slaves.

LOL. Political freedom is definitely not the same thing as the laws of physics. Does every single society today kill you if you try to leave?

Proof for this contention?
Seriously I want a book citation that Kitanni are killed for leaving. LEAVING mind you, not treachery but leaving.
Oh yeah, and something proving that your contention of 'can not conquer people' is slavery since as Tor points out you are not allowed to conquer people by YOUR government, who will arrest and/or kill you if you tried. Or are you willing to concede that you are a slave?

The book clearly defines what slaves are, and you are injecting your own contrasting opinions about what slavery is here.

No. I am applying a consistent definition.

Then please provide the exact definition of slave, and provide evidence that it is equivalent to, or even compatible with the books definition. Because when discussing a matter of canon in a book, the books definitions are presumed to be true since it is the authoritative original source.

Yes, the Splugorth investigate and eliminate teachery, so what? Every government does that. Per the heading also on the right column of WB2p18, "Slaves" are forced to serve, and Kittani are NOT forced to serve.

Since treachery in Splugorth society is defined as not doing what you are told with no other choice than death; the Kitanni are forced to serve.

Source for this claim? Because if your claiming that there is a definition of treachery for Splugorth society, then it should be easy to point to the book where this is said to be so. Otherwise it is not the definition of the word but your personal definition of the word.

They can laze around and play video games if they want to, Splynncryth isn't going to jail them for it, just probably not pay them and maybe shame them or something.

Proof? This contradicts the established freedom is an illusion aspect of Splugorth society.

Actually the proof is on you to prove that they don't, since you are the one making a claim (Kitanni are slaves even though they are not listed as such) therefor you have to provide evidence that they have none of the privileges of free beings. The proof for the contention that the Kittani can do this is reflexive. If the Kitanni are not slaves, then the Kitanni have choices. If the Kitanni have choices then they can exercise those choices.

We are told all slaves are greatly inferior to the lowest minion (even the Sunaj). We are told that slaves can eventually be given freedom and allowed to become a lesser minion.

Getting promoted to a slave with a fancy title is still a slave.

Actually if the book explicitly says ALL SLAVES are inferior to minion then by definition minions can not be slaves since If A>B then A=/=B

It tells us that a lesser minion is "somebody who is comparatively free but dedicated to serving".

There is nothing wrong with 'comparatively' because ALL freedom is comparative.

Their freedom is an illusion, even the comparative kind.

And? No seriously and? The freedom of most people on Earth is an illusion, but we don't claim they are all slaves.

In fact... if it was Splynncryth who made this agreement, why exactly are the Kittani free to go serve rival Splugorth, hm?

They were sold or traded between their masters.[/quote][quote]
You have a citation for that? Because otherwise there is no reason to take the "they were sold" hypothesis over the "They chose to go work for other people" hypothesis since both have equal support (none).


The basic question here is
How do you define a slave. If the word is made broad enough then EVERYONE is a slave and thus the claim is meaningless since there is no such thing as a not-slave.
So....what is your definition of what is required to be a not-slave? Because if there is nothing and no one that can fit the criteria the category of not-slave then the claim that anyone else is a slave is simply reflexive.

[Tor]

at risk of repeating eliakon...

World Book Atlantis clearly states any and all freedom the Kitanni have is an illusion. Ergo, they are not free. Ergo, they fit the definition of a slave.

Wrong, page 18 does not say 'any and all'. It merely says 'freedom within' which might refer to some aspect of freedom, not all aspects.

Plus freedom is entirely relative and ALWAYS an illusion when thought of as an absolute concept, so it's effectively meaningless.

Just because the Kittani lack absolute freedom (something everyone lacks) and aren't free from observation doesn't mean they lack any freedoms whatsoever.

Political freedom is definitely not the same thing as the laws of physics.

There are more freedoms than political ones though.

Does every single society today kill you if you try to leave?

That would depend on what you know and if you are suspected of treachery.

I am applying a consistent definition.

A definition of slavery which is inconsistent with the book, consistent with your world view.

treachery in Splugorth society is defined as not doing what you are told

Source?

This contradicts the established freedom is an illusion aspect of Splugorth society.

That talks about surveillance and punishing traitors, not hassling Kittani who game instead of build robots.

Getting promoted to a slave with a fancy title is still a slave.

Not if the book explicitly calls them free and lists slave as a separate status.

Looking to 18 some more, we are told 'The Sunaj is the only exception' to "free to travel throughout Atlantis and other Splugorth holdings". Not surprising since Sunaj are the lowest-ranked minions, just a step above actual slaves.

Slaves generally are not free to travel outside your property into other slave ranches.