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Yes, and it allowed one player to try to recreate the Rabbit of Caerbannog.


Daniel Stoker

SpiritInterface wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Glistam wrote:

Nightmask wrote:How would one abuse such or forcing a 10 minute wait on them prevent it? Particularly when mages with metamorphic spells can recast said spells and maintain them indefinitely (helped along by the various boosts and extra sources of PPE that are around).

When you need to maintain your disguise but time is running out, it's a lot easier to sneak away and spend only 15 seconds dragon-sized than it is to sneak away and spend only 10 minutes (or more) dragon-sized. That's the "abuse" I would look to prevent.

So again just why is that abuse? That restriction seems contrived to ensure someone playing a dragon character would be forced to be exposed to everyone as one.

And...

Dragons are supposed to be solitary and reclusive creatures. Maybe this reputation comes from the fact that hatchling and juvenile Dragons hiding until they grew to be able to maintain their disguise longer. By removing any meaningful cooling off period you are effectively removing the limitation.

If you want to play a Dragon that doesn't have to worry about the limitation have your GM give you a magical McGuffin (an item such as a ring, necklace, suppository, or a magical mark such as a tattoo, or birthmark) that allows you to ignore it.

That 'supposed to be' part there is the problem, trying to enforce a bit of fluff text that's not graven into stone.

I look at the gains appearance not special abilities of the form is a way of saying, that they are still a dragon they just look different. however IMO a cheetah doesn't really have any special abilities I mean thy are a cat, they have decent strength, and are fast with fairly good cat senses but nothing really special.

for instance if a dragon shape changed into a bat they aren't going to get the bats echolocation abilities they may be able to fake it but...
and if they change into a fish or amphibian they aren't going to have working gills or the ability to absorb large amounts of oxygen though their skin.

if they changed into a were-creature they don't get their limited invulnerability etc.

Prysus wrote:

Razzinold wrote:The only reason I don't think she will is because they can't in their natural form.

Greetings and Salutations. I'm curious, "can't" what "in their natural form"?

Razzinold wrote:I have another question regarding this part of the skill description:
"The metamorphosis does not instill any of the abilities of the animal,
only its appearance"

So that means if she changes into a cheetah, she doesn't get the speed of a cheetah right ?
Well if that's the case if she turns into a bird she should still be able to fly because of this quote, right ?
"Note: Regardless
of his shape, a dragon is a dragon, with all its natural powers and
abilities. So a hatchling metamorphed to look like a bunny rabbit
can still talk, cast spells, and kick with the strength of a dragon."

So if she picks a breed of dragon that can fly that would be considered a 'natural ability' so she theoretically she should retain her powers of flight.

The dragon wouldn't gain the abilities of a cheetah (so no speed), but could in theory still fly as a cheetah (there are wingless flying dragons, so those don't seem to be required). That's at least from my understanding. Farewell and safe journeys.

I'm guessing 'fly'. Having a non flying dragon is like winning 10 cent in the lottery.

Checked Dragons and gods. The previous poster is correct the size reduction is a totally different ability from the metamorph.

They can reduce their size by 60% and hold it indefinitely, at will. So that helps. If you figure a third of the dragon's size is his or her tail. then from nose to..er, butt, a hatchling is 20 feet (With a 10 foot tail). Reducing that by 60% would give you a dragon from nose to butt of about 8 feet. With a 6 foot tail. You could fit that easily into a bedroom or what have you.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Checked Dragons and gods. The previous poster is correct the size reduction is a totally different ability from the metamorph.

They can reduce their size by 60% and hold it indefinitely, at will. So that helps. If you figure a third of the dragon's size is his or her tail. then from nose to..er, butt, a hatchling is 20 feet (With a 10 foot tail). Reducing that by 60% would give you a dragon from nose to butt of about 8 feet. With a 6 foot tail. You could fit that easily into a bedroom or what have you.

Yep so assuming a GM decides to bring that power into Rifts it is a useful aid to the situation.

Of course if we are using the D&G powers then presumably the D&G metamorphosis power and its explanation would also apply neatly solving the entire issue entirely....

Pepsi was right, "can't fly", that was a typo on my part.
She loves the idea of flying dragons.

As a side note... who thinks the illustrations in RUE just blow bloody chunks? They don't really represent the dragons they're depicting and just are horrible? I Go online and find images for my dragons.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

But the cool down is in the books Gods and Dragons page 15 #3 "Time limit: Although some adult dragons like the Chiangku and Great Horned can maintain the metamorphosis indefinitely, most adults are limited to 4-6 hours per level of experience, while hatchlings are limited to two hours per level of experience; in both cases, triple the duration if the dragon is on or near a ley line or nexus point (within two miles/3.2 km). When this time elapses, the dragon will assume its natural shape and size whether it wants to or not, and metamorphosis cannot be performed again for at least five hours for adults and 12 hours for hatchlings."

A note to everyone who plays a Hatchling Dragon, you are playing the equivalent of a 1-5 year old.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:As a side note... who thinks the illustrations in RUE just blow bloody chunks? They don't really represent the dragons they're depicting and just are horrible? I Go online and find images for my dragons.

No I agree the pics are pretty cruddy overall and not anything all that epic.


Daniel Stoker

Its been a decade since I played a great horned dragon, but here is what I did:
Generally, fly/goto to a ley line/nexus (flying makes it fast), they triple your duration, so that 2 hours per level becomes 6 hours per level. Being a dragon I was often near a ley line/nexus.
Second, I limited the changes I would make to my form, in order to make the form stay longer. Not RAW obviously, but my GM was fine with indefinite duration with only minimal changes..no one thought I was abusing it, it was all in fun. Had there been a problem I would have had a custom TW gadget made to extend the duration of the change. My character was pure entertainment as he explored the world (I was careful not to do anything that would negatively effect the group), but when combat came he would do the unexpected which would be more useful than one would imagine.... fighting in whatever form he was in. I kept changing tactics every game, quite easy when you have an array of powers, psionics, magic, equipment, etc.. Having decided that the dragon form was superior to other forms, lol, I usually only changed my size. I had 3 forms in total:
-a 2 foot tall deep blue dragon, who is very cute. (He looks like a two foot tall faerie dragon commando). He wears a tiny pair of wood armor, util belt, & backpack. He carries a M16 with grenade launcher, which looks really big compared to him.
-a 6'6" foot tall black draconian. Like Indianna Jones, he wears: a hat, trenchcoat (concealing wood armor & rocket boots), backpack, and waist util belt (whip, flashlight, etc.). Carries a spear (it has a sling, so it may be on his back).
-the normal hatchling:20' tall, 50' long, 100'wingspan, 20 tons. In this form he was looking for a rider, possibly to fight something he called thread..like all those dragons on Pern. He had decided he wanted a female, who wouldn't get his tail shot off and was entertaining (as in music, stories, or just in general). No one who would duplicate his powers. He had decided on a burster knight or a cyber knight... He was slowly making a custom set of armor in order to entice one.

The three different forms were great as people would treat you completely differently: a pet, an equal, or someone triggering those fight or flight instincts. All the while pushing the worship of dragons as a great religion, heh, good times!

Pepsi Jedi wrote:As a side note... who thinks the illustrations in RUE just blow bloody chunks? They don't really represent the dragons they're depicting and just are horrible? I Go online and find images for my dragons.

I agree, and so does my daughter.

She ended up going with a Royal Frilled Dragon, they get 4 hours per level so that's pretty handy. With that rate, If I started her at 2nd level should could work a full day at a factory disguised as a human if she really wanted to.

Here's a question, I found in the book how long they are, so how would I figure out their height ? Would I just take x% of the length to figure out the length between the ground and the top of their head if they were sitting back on their haunches or standing up on two legs ?

Just eyeball it. The way I do it is, the default is what, 30ft long? I figure a third of that is tail. So from nose to butt it's about 20 feet long.

Some dragons are going to be 'taller' than others. Great Horned, Fire, etc that have that 'typical' Western dragon look, are going to be taller than those that have the 'eastern' dragon look. Chang Ku, Great Frilled, etc.

Great Frilled or Chang ku might only be about 6 feet 'tall' but very long and snaky. A great horned might be 10 or 15 feet tall.

Actually I think their size is without tail. The tail would likely be an additional 50% body length.

Alrik Vas wrote:Actually I think their size is without tail. The tail would likely be an additional 50% body length.

Does it say without a tail? Let me check. PG 158 rue
"However, the true size of a typical Dragon Hatchling, from snout to tail tip, is 30 feet, and 4-8 tons.

So it clearly says that is the length including tail.

It also says right above that they can adjust their physical size down by 50%.

Yeah it was with tail, though I figured the tail being about a third of overall length. not half.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah it was with tail, though I figured the tail being about a third of overall length. not half.

Actually you both said the same ratio just in different ways, as you said it was 1/3 the total size and he said 50% the body.

IF the tail is 1/3 the overall length that means the body is 2/3 so the tail is half the size of the body.

Lol I guess so, then.

Damn you fractions!!!!!


Daniel Stoker

1/2 of me agrees with you 1/4 of the time.

I would assume that that tail length makes sense.

Height wise I would say that European stile dragon hachling when on all fours would stand about 10' tall. If the dragon walks on its back legs it would have to be taller than its body length so say 25 feet tall.

SpiritInterface wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Noooo... If it doesn't say you can. You can assume you can. What you're doing is adding restrictions for no apperent reason that are not in the book.

You're given the power for the character, it's assumed you'll use it. "Oh it doesn't say you can use it again immediately" is a thinly veiled dodge. it doesn't say they can walk either but we're going to assume they can.

If there are restrictions on powers/abilities then it's incumbent on the writers to tell us. If there's not, you're just making it up. Which is fine. house rules and all but one should ask "Why". Why add bunches of restrictions to powers that aren't in the book?

But the cool down is in the books Gods and Dragons page 15 #3 "Time limit: Although some adult dragons like the Chiangku and Great Horned can maintain the metamorphosis indefinitely, most adults are limited to 4-6 hours per level of experience, while hatchlings are limited to two hours per level of experience; in both cases, triple the duration if the dragon is on or near a ley line or nexus point (within two miles/3.2 km). When this time elapses, the dragon will assume its natural shape and size whether it wants to or not, and metamorphosis cannot be performed again for at least five hours for adults and 12 hours for hatchlings."

I thought Chiang-Ku were the only that can hold it indefinitely but according to Dragons and Gods Great Horned can too ? Is that written in any other book, partly asking because I don't have that book ?

The cool thing about a Royal Frilled Hatchling is it gets 4 hours per level, which is awesome, but the poor Flame Wind Dragon Hatchling totally gets the screw job with only 1 hour per level as a hatchling.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Actually I think their size is without tail. The tail would likely be an additional 50% body length.

Does it say without a tail? Let me check. PG 158 rue
"However, the true size of a typical Dragon Hatchling, from snout to tail tip, is 30 feet, and 4-8 tons.

So it clearly says that is the length including tail.

It also says right above that they can adjust their physical size down by 50%.

So years later, the new rules more or less allow people to do what I had been doing year earlier. So any average size dragon hatchling seems to be able to maintain a 50% size for unlimited (the rules aren't crystal clear) duration. I always used 50% tail (all dragons can be different shapes/percentages, so use whatever you like), which makes
@+50%: 45' long
@normal:30' long=15' tall+15' tail
@-50%: about the same as a human.

Fortunately royal frilled are twice as good at metamorphosis as other dragons, so through homebrew extrapolation allowing them another size smaller seems reasonable.
@+100%: 60' long. Carrying/transport, trick people into thinking you are an adult dragon
@25%: 3.5' long= 1.5' tall and 1.5' tail.

Lets assume ley lines only extend the duration not he size...so you need to use the power if you want to go down smaller than 1.5'tall.

If you live within 2km of a ley line as a royal frilled using the metamorphesis power doesn't really have a duration once you hit level 2 (4hours per level, triple for the ley line=12,x2 levels=all day). So a royal frilled near a ley line could constantly change shapes all day long every day after hitting level 2, from small size of a cat or rabbit are the listed examples.

I think Dragons and Gods was written before RUE, so it may be superceeded. Also, Dragons and Gods is PF but compatible with RIFTS..so again its not a perfect rules being equal, as they change slightly from system to system. I don't know if it was printed elsewhere.

The 30 foot number included tail though. Why are your dragons 50% bigger?

Razzinold wrote:I thought Chiang-Ku were the only that can hold it indefinitely but according to Dragons and Gods Great Horned can too ? Is that written in any other book, partly asking because I don't have that book ?

The cool thing about a Royal Frilled Hatchling is it gets 4 hours per level, which is awesome, but the poor Flame Wind Dragon Hatchling totally gets the screw job with only 1 hour per level as a hatchling.

The Great Horned Dragon Adults have always been able to hold their metamorphosis indefinitely. Conversion Book 1 (original). Hatchlings were still the normal 2hrs per level.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The 30 foot number included tail though. Why are your dragons 50% bigger?

They can adjust there size up or down by 50%. So if they are 30' long and add 50% they are now 45 foot long.

the only thing it says about the the the only thing they say that might relate to duration is it uses the metamorphosis power so may count as the time they can metamorphosis.

On the royal frill dragon it says twice as long it does not say it can go twice as big so that is an unsupported assumption.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The 30 foot number included tail though. Why are your dragons 50% bigger?

They can adjust there size up or down by 50%. So if they are 30' long and add 50% they are now 45 foot long.

the only thing it says about the the the only thing they say that might relate to duration is it uses the metamorphosis power so may count as the time they can metamorphosis.

On the royal frill dragon it says twice as long it does not say it can go twice as big so that is an unsupported assumption.

Um.... *Rereads dragons and gods section*

Nope. Unless the power appears in another place differently. The power says that a dragon can reduce it's 'natural full size by 60%, in any increments'
It says nothing what so ever about going above full size.

More over the Metamorph power (Separate power) States that they have size limitations. About the size of a cat for the lower end (Though one mentions bunny which for me are smaller than cats but it SAYS as small as a cat, I guess a LARGE bunny might be bigger than a SMALL cat.) And that the maximum size cannot exceed their own.

So.. no the Dragon can't just make itself bigger than it's normal max size.

Now, I'm straight up saying ,if it says it in another book, I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure the 'Shrinky power' (Not actual metamorphing) only appeared in Dragons and gods.

Can you cite a book and page that says they can exceed their normal size?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The 30 foot number included tail though. Why are your dragons 50% bigger?

They can adjust there size up or down by 50%. So if they are 30' long and add 50% they are now 45 foot long.

the only thing it says about the the the only thing they say that might relate to duration is it uses the metamorphosis power so may count as the time they can metamorphosis.

On the royal frill dragon it says twice as long it does not say it can go twice as big so that is an unsupported assumption.

Um.... *Rereads dragons and gods section*

Nope. Unless the power appears in another place differently. The power says that a dragon can reduce it's 'natural full size by 60%, in any increments'
It says nothing what so ever about going above full size.

More over the Metamorph power (Separate power) States that they have size limitations. About the size of a cat for the lower end (Though one mentions bunny which for me are smaller than cats but it SAYS as small as a cat, I guess a LARGE bunny might be bigger than a SMALL cat.) And that the maximum size cannot exceed their own.

So.. no the Dragon can't just make itself bigger than it's normal max size.

Now, I'm straight up saying ,if it says it in another book, I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure the 'Shrinky power' (Not actual metamorphing) only appeared in Dragons and gods.

Can you cite a book and page that says they can exceed their normal size?

Try reading RUE PG 158 under the sub-heading Size.
"The power of Metamorphosis allows most dragons to adjust their physical size, up or down by 50%."

So it is using the metamorphosis to change its size but not turn into something so has a different limit on max and minimal size.
This may be intended to replace the size reduction power from dragons and gods.

No. The size -reduction- in dragon's and gods is distinctly different. It's numbered different and distinctly does not have a time limitation

The note you're referencing does say that -metamorphosis- allows 'most dragons' to adjust their size up and down by 50%, but when you read the metamorphosis power it stipulates clearly they cannot exceed their normal size.

The section from dragon's and gods, pertaining to size reduction is separate from metamorphosis.

Even if you ignore the actual description for the Metamorphosis power (Which states the minimum being the size of a cat and "The maximum size -cannot exceed the dragon's own-") and use the note you're referencing from 158.

That's still using 'metamorphosis' to do it. Meaning you're restricted by the 'hours per day' you can metamorphisize. I.E you'd be using your morph power to try and reach the upper limit.

Which wouldn't fall under this aspect (Being that the 'true' size is 30ft. Not 45. As defined in the book, in the exact section you're pointing at.)

Pepsi Jedi wrote:No. The size -reduction- in dragon's and gods is distinctly different. It's numbered different and distinctly does not have a time limitation

The note you're referencing does say that -metamorphosis- allows 'most dragons' to adjust their size up and down by 50%, but when you read the metamorphosis power it stipulates clearly they cannot exceed their normal size.

The section from dragon's and gods, pertaining to size reduction is separate from metamorphosis.

Even if you ignore the actual description for the Metamorphosis power (Which states the minimum being the size of a cat and "The maximum size -cannot exceed the dragon's own-") and use the note you're referencing from 158.

That's still using 'metamorphosis' to do it. Meaning you're restricted by the 'hours per day' you can metamorphisize. I.E you'd be using your morph power to try and reach the upper limit.

Which wouldn't fall under this aspect (Being that the 'true' size is 30ft. Not 45. As defined in the book, in the exact section you're pointing at.)

Actually the is a way that it is not contradiction while using the metamorphosis power. You see it when you read the power.
PG 159 RUE.
"A natural ability common to most dragons enabling the charter to completely alter his physical shape, transforming himself to look like any creature."
In the case of the size change he is not completely altering his shape just his size. So while he can only look like other creatures from the size of a cat to his own natural size, it also says in size that he can use it to alter his size(in the page) while keeping his shape the same. So even using the same power it is two different ways to use it so they are not in direct conflict(different limit for different use).

I can not speak as to what is in dragons and gods as I do not have that book. It does seam in RUE they did attach it to the metamorphosis power with how they wrote it up.

There are three possible conclusions I can think of that do not say the book is wrong.

1. It is separate use of the the power to metamorph, that is separate from the power appearing in dragons and gods.

2. It is a separate use of metamorph that replaces the power in dragons and gods.

3. it is a Modification to the size and directions of the power listed in dragons and gods not attached to metamorph power.

*This is the closes I know of to the power listed in dragons and gods posted in an active book for rifts.*

You are free to draw what ever conclusion you want but I would most likely favor 2.

Out of curiosity, does anyone allow a dragon's metamorph ability to include clothes? Changing to human-form is helpful, but you're going to draw some other attention walking around buck naked.

Mack wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone allow a dragon's metamorph ability to include clothes? Changing to human-form is helpful, but you're going to draw some other attention walking around buck naked.

I would say no as did some one else when I asked earlier.

My say is that first transformation to human is buck naked, but once it has gotten clothes, those appear and disappear along with the human shape.

Svartalf wrote:My say is that first transformation to human is buck naked, but once it has gotten clothes, those appear and disappear along with the human shape.

I too will allow some handwavium and go with this. It just speeds the game along, one less thing to bog down on.

I guess you could base it on the same arguments people use for magic users (even though it's a ntural ability), or maybe more like Superman.
In some depictions of Superman his outfit/cape never takes any damage, unless it's some crazy powerful for like Doomsday, because people make the argument that his power radiates off him like an aura just large enough to cover what he's wearing.

Mack wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone allow a dragon's metamorph ability to include clothes? Changing to human-form is helpful, but you're going to draw some other attention walking around buck naked.

Nope. I treat this the same as the Metamorphosis spells (and in most anything but HU) all other transformations.
Specifically that it is a metamorphosis of your self. No clothes, no gear, I don't even allow tattoos (the are ink) and fillings to be copied. Also if you have clothing/armor/gear when you change it does not change with you. If you are now to big for what you are wearing it will tear. If it can not be torn in a single action...then you will start taking crushing damage as you burst your way out (I have an optional rule that allows this to cancel a metamorphosis effect that can be canceled. So for example a spell can not be used to crush someone to death in their armor, as the player would get to break the effect.).