The Invincibility of the CS?

[dreicunan]

@HWalsh: It is ludicrous to argue that the CS leadership knows that magic isn't dangerous when anyone on Rifts Earth could tell you that magic is most certainly dangerous. Unlike a weapon like a sword, which is normally inoffensive until someone chooses to wield it, the mere existence of magic coursing through the world can cause dimensional anomalies that could deposit you in the depths of an ocean where you don't have time to drown because you get crushed first by the pressure, unleash entities, or deposit monsters of varying power onto the world, including potentially planet threatening ones like the Xiticix. Magic energy can end up mutating people into bald psychic vampires. As I know others have noted in the past, a single shifter trying to show off could have doomed the whole planet/solar system/galaxy to death by Mechanoids. Magic is by far theost dangerous force in the whole megaverse, and at the levels present on Rifts Earth its mere existence, even before we start talking about people using it, is a constant threat. That it can be used for good purposes makes it no less dangerous.

Your making a logical fallacy there
Magical energy is no more dangerous than electromagnetism is.
Ley lines are not magic they are magical energy in the same way that a laser rifle is not electromagnetism.
You use magical energy to perform magic in the same way that you use electromagnetism to perform technology.
But just because nuclear bombs destroyed the world doesn't mean computers are bad, or that lights are bad. Just because lasers can kill people doesn't mean that CD players are bad. Just because Tornadoes are destructive does not mean that air is bad....
...compare apples to oranges here man, not strawmen.


Also the argument that "one person can destroy us all" fails to hold up when it is also possible for one person to make a disease that can wipe out everyone.
Or one person to make a nuclear weapon.
Not to mention the fact that the fallacy requires that the one persons doom that they get weighted on requires the active complicity of others... meaning it is not one persons actions, but many peoples actions. Actions btw which could just as easily of happened by chance.

So yeah, your argument is totally 100% false.
Your basically making a shell argument that A is bad because B is even though A is not B

.

You don't use electromagnetism to "do" technology, though you do use it to power some technology. Also, I would argue that electromagnetic energy can be quite dangerous as well. Of course, on Earth electromagnetic energy is normally not spread all over the planet randomly zapping people (though at times it does, such as lightning). However, magical energy is far more dangerous, because it can produce so many other unpredictable effects.

And yea, one person could create a disease that could wipe us all out. That doesn't refute anything that I said, it just means that knowing how to make diseases is also dangerous.

Yes, I am arguing that both magic and magic energy are dangerous. I'd also agree that both nuclear energy and nuclear weapons are dangerous. There is no logical fallacy there; both pose danger to people.

No your argument IS a fallacy
You are trying to make the false claim that the controlled use of something is dangerous because the uncontrolled use of it is dangerous
That is a fallacy I'm sorry.
Ley Lines are not magic. Random Rifts are not magic.
Thus they are not examples of the dangers of magic.
Any more than tuberculosis is one of the dangers of Archeology.
I mean, its a disease right? And that's a natural force right? and science harnesses natural forces right? And archeology is a science right? Therefore Tuberculosis is a danger of archeology.
Anyone would look at that and think it was totally silly...
...and your argument is equally silly.

Applied Science X is not dangerous because Raw Natural Force Y is dangerous.

The word dangerous has a meaning. If you don't want to be bothered to actually use words according to what they mean, continue setting up your straw men and knocking them down; you appear to be an expert at it. Magical energy on its own, without anyone trying to use it, can be and is dangerous on Rifts Earth (see random rifts, ley line storms, creatures who are stated to be mutated by magic energy). The actual use of magic can be and is dangerous (direct damage spells, curses, summoning spells). If you want to prove that they aren't dangerous, please explain why they aren't instead of pretending to argue with someone else.

[dreicunan]

You don't use electromagnetism to "do" technology, though you do use it to power some technology. Also, I would argue that electromagnetic energy can be quite dangerous as well. Of course, on Earth electromagnetic energy is normally not spread all over the planet randomly zapping people (though at times it does, such as lightning). However, magical energy is far more dangerous, because it can produce so many other unpredictable effects.

And yea, one person could create a disease that could wipe us all out. That doesn't refute anything that I said, it just means that knowing how to make diseases is also dangerous.

Yes, I am arguing that both magic and magic energy are dangerous. I'd also agree that both nuclear energy and nuclear weapons are dangerous. There is no logical fallacy there; both pose danger to people.

So... You're saying the CS should stop all Power Armor production... They make nuclear reactor and those are dangerous!

They should kill EVERYONE who uses or produces nuclear reactors.

Oh! They also need to kill everyone in CS Lonestar. Bradford. Also kill all Dog Boys, after all being that close to human increases the chance of dog viruses to become human ones...

Is the CS doing that? No... Because they're lying about magic being evil/dangerous and need to be destroyed.

I never said that the CS should do any of that, as even the most cursory reading of my post would confirm. I merely pointed out that claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous. That something is dangerous doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used, either, but the fact that there are reasons to use a dangerous thing doesn't make the thing less dangerous.

That last line of yours also changes your argument; your original post said they know that it isn't dangerous; it made no mention of evil, and I would never argue that either magical energy or the use of magic in and of itself were evil.

[Killer Cyborg]

claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous.

Agreed.
Again, a lone shifter attempting to show off, brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, which (if not for some bands of plucky heroes) would have literally ended with the destruction of the entire planet.
Just for starts.

[Eagle]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

[HWalsh]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

[Eagle]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

I think it illustrates the point perfectly. Just because a bad guy believed it, doesn't make it not true. I note that you just skipped over the possibility of a guy walking around with magic scrolls or other items that he can just fire off whenever he feels like it.

But let's quote a good guy instead. Unlike the earlier one, I had no trouble finding this quote:

"Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman," said Gimli. "But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous."

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous—not least to those who are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless."

Magic completely changes the social order. What does it change it to? Well, that's a good question.

[dreicunan]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

Ad hominem doesn't help your argument one bit. Feel free to attempt to actually counter the argument instead of dismissing it because you feel that Trask is a "bad" guy (which is itself a whole different debate given his character arcs in both the comic books and the movie).

[HWalsh]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

Ad hominem doesn't help your argument one bit. Feel free to attempt to actually counter the argument instead of dismissing it because you feel that Trask is a "bad" guy (which is itself a whole different debate given his character arcs in both the comic books and the movie).

Fine I'll play this game, despite how silly it is.

So, ok...

People love to use the Mechanoids. Fair point, one Shifter opened a Rift and that rift, one out of presumable hundreds of thousands opened every day, caused a hostile invasion that... Wasn't really that dangerous to.be honest, but... Could have been devastating.

So I'll counter that Magic isn't needed for this. A nuclear detonation caused the Cataclysm.

One guy could have dangerous scrolls? Another guy could have a suitcase nuke. Another guy could be a 'Borg with their reactor rigged to blow. Another could carry a vial of airborne super pathogen.

So I've pretty much shown that the likelihood of crazy mage is not any more common or dangerous than crazy anyone. Power bolt is less dangerous than a wilks pistol.

To counter your X-Men, I'll use another famous quote:

"You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you're foolish to even try."

[eliakon]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

And again your going backwards here and making a double standard
You are saying that "oh radiation (magical energy) is bad... so we use science (magic) to detect, and deal with it"...
...but you can't you people have this icky bad natural thing and we don't like it so you don't get to have any controlling science only the bad guys can have it, and we will not allow any sort of controls on it so that we can 'prove' how bad you are.

So yes, duh, of course if you set up a situation where a fail state is a given, then yes it will always fail.
Sorry, that doesn't prove anything other than how to make a fake argument.

The argument is utterly false because it starts with so many bad assumptions I can't even begin. It basically reads like some bad CS propaganda really.

The First bad assumption is the "bad actors" assumption that assumes that mages will be bad actors. This right here shows that the argument itself is made in bad faith and why I said it is not a real argument but just some CS propaganda. When a core part of the argument is that mages will always be an oppressor, simply by don't of their existence. Since that right there just claimed that magic will require a set morality for magic users it pretty well shows the arguer is in bad faith. But lets go on/

The Second bad assumption is the 'omnipotence' assumption where in vast cosmic powers are granted to mages. The examples given, while possible would require a very large array of spells that, frankly, are not available to the vast majority of mages. It comes back to taking a highly unlikely threat and trying to use it as a common one. Just like this same poster dismissed the danger of science by stating that while science could make a disease... that would require a highly trained scientist... to pull of the laundry list of feats here would require a highly trained mage.

The Third bad assumption here is that it postulates that there will be this tiny number of mages and that since there are only a tiny number of mages that they will be the only people with mage. In the first place, in magical societies there are no "Mr. 1d4 PPE" so right there we can already see that the poster is once again arguing from bad faith. Since in an openly magical society on Rifts where TW is in use everyone 1) has access to magic via TW and 2) keeps the entire PPE total that they have as children. This of course also ignores the fact that in an open society not having magic is a choice.
Yes, a choice. There is no inherent quality needed to become a mage in Palladium. Anyone other than the members of a handful of races can become a mage. In an openly magical society mage is not "da overlordz" because it is just another job"

The Fourth bad assumption here is that it assumes that since you have this artificially tiny number of mages (who are already assumed to be bad mind you) that society will then have no one working for it. That for some reason there will be no police mages, no use of magic to make protections, etc.
This goes back to the third assumption but I will expand on it here.
In a fully magical society you don't just have magical criminals and terrorists operating in a vacuum like you do in the CS.
You get a society like Arzno or Tolkeen or Lazlo where you have universal access to TW where magic is just another job, where your law enforcement has routine access to a wide array of magic both to provide pre-emptive protection (like defensive wards, circles of protection, etc) and for tracking and stopping things.
You can't stop criminals of any kind. But I am sorry, unless you are going to declare that being sapient is terrifying and should be banned then you will have criminals. You will even have very dangerous ones that will use the most dangerous of the available tools they have.
But you can also deter the majority of sapient from becoming criminals in the first place by having a law enforcement schema in place that has tools to detect those crimes, track the perpetrators and punish them.

The Fifth bad assumption here is that of a "vacuum" since unless you are proposing that the entire megaverse give up magic and that every race of inherently magical beings and supernatural entities should voluntarily commit suicide? Or maybe the genocide of everyone and anything that uses magic?
Because otherwise you are simply ensuring that magic is a force that will be terrifying to your side because you don't have it, you cant use it, you don't know how it works and anyone else can. Its like trying to state that because you find modern warfare scary you think that the entire world should go back to living in caves.
Its not going to happen, and even if you go live in a cave that wont make anyone else live in a cave. It will just make you even more afraid of all the non-cave people who do not feel that they have to obey your whims.

There are more, but frankly just these are enough to demonstrate that the case here is not one of logic, but instead irrational fear mixed with propaganda.

[Freemage]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

Ad hominem doesn't help your argument one bit. Feel free to attempt to actually counter the argument instead of dismissing it because you feel that Trask is a "bad" guy (which is itself a whole different debate given his character arcs in both the comic books and the movie).

Fine I'll play this game, despite how silly it is.

So, ok...

People love to use the Mechanoids. Fair point, one Shifter opened a Rift and that rift, one out of presumable hundreds of thousands opened every day, caused a hostile invasion that... Wasn't really that dangerous to.be honest, but... Could have been devastating.

So I'll counter that Magic isn't needed for this. A nuclear detonation caused the Cataclysm.

One guy could have dangerous scrolls? Another guy could have a suitcase nuke. Another guy could be a 'Borg with their reactor rigged to blow. Another could carry a vial of airborne super pathogen.

So I've pretty much shown that the likelihood of crazy mage is not any more common or dangerous than crazy anyone. Power bolt is less dangerous than a wilks pistol.

To counter your X-Men, I'll use another famous quote:

"You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you're foolish to even try."

Part of the issue for the CS citizenry, and even the leadership, is that they don't comprehend magic the way they do those technological possibilities you outline. Ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds anger. You should know the rest.

To note: I'm not a CS = Nazi denialist. For crying out loud, they ran concentration camps during SoT, and orders were issued to 'mist' the camps when the war was in the final days, after they won.

However, I'm also not of the opinion that the actual Nazi Germany, the nation, was populated entirely by monsters wearing human skin. The evil there was much worse, precisely because the people were perfectly normal human beings who were persuaded, through a mix of economic strife and propaganda about its cause, to permit the commission of atrocities by their ruling class, and to assist in those atrocities in a thousand large and small ways.

As for the CS' invincibility, I do think it's pretty much impossible to directly conquer from the outside. However, I still believe there's ample opportunity for a Shakespearian tragedy to play itself out in the House of Prosek, which could lead to an internal schism far more devastating than any war would be.

Of course, another issue for all of this is the nature of metaplot itself. Frankly, I think Kevin made the same mistake the original White Wolf lines did--releasing rules supplements simultaneously with metaplot material. It raises the bar to use the newest stuff if you don't like the metaplot, because you have to refigure how the new material would affect your own game. A better take, IMNSHO, would've been to start with the setting books detailing each area as of a specific, uniform date. Once you've locked down your world pretty much, THEN you start with metaplot adventure books like SoT and the rest. This lets folks decide for themselves if they want the metaplot as part of the background of their campaign, or if they'd rather let their players pull off a Prosek assassination and then play out the consequences of that.

[boring7]

It was more about the fact that Tolkeen couldn't win. Either way most of Tolkeen was dead the second the CS decided to murder them. Less total loss of life and more Tolkeen survivors.

Sadly... It sets the precedent to never fight the CS if you're a nation. The only chance for survival is to flee.

Yeah, but that was my point. From a perspective of the meta that "precedent" or "moral of the story" is that the CS' plot armor is superior.

It even un-did the loss they'd taken in FQ. FQ was basically spanking the CS until they decided (for really dubious reasons) to stab Tolkeen in the back. Suddenly FQ gets everything they wanted and is working together with the coalition again.

And just re-reading that section, the author fiat is cast into sharp relief. Coalition HEROES have been winning battles with superior numbers. They make up for their individual weakness with the COURAGE to risk their lives by the millions. Juxtaposed with when Tolkeen takes a larger-than-planned military force to a battle; how is it described?

When the demonic forces arrived from Tolkeen there were 6000, instead of the 2000 as promised. Flush from their victory from the Sorcerers' Revenge, Tolkeen's leaders craved another hands-down victory, and had taken the appropriate measures to insure it. The chance of crippling the CS and another orgy of revenge was too intoxicating to leave to the smaller group. Success could spell the end of the Coalition's dominance of North America and begin a new era of power for Tolkeen. It was an opportunity too good to pass up, and no chances were to be taken.

Emphasis mine. It was not, "they wanted to ensure success so they used sound tactics." No, it was evil badguys being evil and bad by...using sound tactics.

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

Yeah, again, just like technology.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

Sense magic is your geiger counter.

It's not like you a built-in geiger counter just on your person. The correct way to handle magic is to have magic (or psychics, which are essentially magic) on tap. It's Agatha's Law (or Clarke's law inverse), sufficiently advanced technology and magic are the same thing.

It's like the "omg mechanoids" plot. Was magic the actual threat? No, it was Mechanoids released by magic that were the threat. Magic, uncontrolled, was the "science experiment gone wrong" in this particular case, but it was no different than a grey goo situation or an unleashed swarm of genetically engineered super-bees (Like on Mars).

It's different, of course.

-Tech threats usually require a big industrial base while magic is one wizard brain walking around. Tech threats are more dangerous because you can crank out a dozen apocalypse bots in a factory for the price of one magical juggernaut, and the juggernaut has to have the wizard inside it to work.

-Technology theats and technology defenses can be mass-produced and use multiple power sources that can go anywhere, magic (even the "industrialized" magic of techno-wizards) cannot shake off it's inherent "artisinal" quality. Everything magical, be it mind-control or mind-shielding, has to be hand-crafted.

-And of course, tech and magic often compare laterally. For dropping raw amounts of damage dice technology is generally superior (guns vs. blast spells, the guns scale up faster and cheaper), for quickly turning a peasant into a juggernaut magic is usually better (power armor vs. scroll of sorcerous fury, or even just the Giant spell), combat droids are better than golems but golems self-repair, and if you want to travel quickly there is no technological teleportation but the fastest flight I ever found in magic was 60 MPH.

The X-men reference is an excellent one. There is power, there is danger, but most of the danger is ignorance and fear, and the true reason that the leaders of non-magical nations or non-mutant groups are "afraid" is not the existence of power; it is the existence of power they do not personally control.

[boring7]

To note: I'm not a CS = Nazi denialist. For crying out loud, they ran concentration camps during SoT, and orders were issued to 'mist' the camps when the war was in the final days, after they won.

However, I'm also not of the opinion that the actual Nazi Germany, the nation, was populated entirely by monsters wearing human skin.

You can have (writers already have before) a story that LITERALLY just looks at how Hans the German soldier in 1939 sees himself, how he protects and provides for his family, how morality and rationalization and all that play out in the real world. I don't think anyone describing the Illinois Nazis disputes this. It's kind of the point.

Also you can't have relative morality and also absolute morality.

A good example would probably be the demons. As I recall the story was that there was this group of demons that were the absolute lowest of the low in their hell-dimension home. No supernatural powers meant their massive PPE reserves were useless, so they were the abused and beaten bottom run of hell's caste-ish society which was built on systemic brutality and cruelty. Then along came Tolkeen, who picked them up and brought them out and said, 'hey, wouldn't you like to live in a world where "strong rule, weak suffer" isn't the way?" You had this whole arc about "humanity is infectious" and beings who had only ever known suffering and war being shown a better way and liking it. Even DEMONS were morally relative...

Then all that was chucked in the bin and Demons Are Evil Because Alignment System so that Tolkeen and it's demonic allies could be Evil Enough To Die. DEMONS BAD AND TOLKEEN BAD, no complexity allowed...unless you're an Illinois Nazi.

[dreicunan]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

Ad hominem doesn't help your argument one bit. Feel free to attempt to actually counter the argument instead of dismissing it because you feel that Trask is a "bad" guy (which is itself a whole different debate given his character arcs in both the comic books and the movie).

Fine I'll play this game, despite how silly it is.

So, ok...

People love to use the Mechanoids. Fair point, one Shifter opened a Rift and that rift, one out of presumable hundreds of thousands opened every day, caused a hostile invasion that... Wasn't really that dangerous to.be honest, but... Could have been devastating.

So I'll counter that Magic isn't needed for this. A nuclear detonation caused the Cataclysm.

One guy could have dangerous scrolls? Another guy could have a suitcase nuke. Another guy could be a 'Borg with their reactor rigged to blow. Another could carry a vial of airborne super pathogen.

So I've pretty much shown that the likelihood of crazy mage is not any more common or dangerous than crazy anyone. Power bolt is less dangerous than a wilks pistol.

To counter your X-Men, I'll use another famous quote:

"You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you're foolish to even try."

The fact that technology is also dangerous does nothing to prove that magic isn't. They are both dangerous. You've also conflated "probability" with "possibility." Your post has shown examples of how there are non-magic things that are dangerous. You've done nothing to even touch on how likely any of this is.

Finally, it was not nuclear weapons alone that caused the cataclysm. It was the exact timing of the deaths and ppe release that caused it. If that exchange and resulting deaths took place at almost any other time, no cataclysm. It was due to the nature of how magic energy works that the cataclysm occurred. Magic energy is directly to blame for the state of Rifts Earth, not nuclear weapons.

[HWalsh]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

Ad hominem doesn't help your argument one bit. Feel free to attempt to actually counter the argument instead of dismissing it because you feel that Trask is a "bad" guy (which is itself a whole different debate given his character arcs in both the comic books and the movie).

Fine I'll play this game, despite how silly it is.

So, ok...

People love to use the Mechanoids. Fair point, one Shifter opened a Rift and that rift, one out of presumable hundreds of thousands opened every day, caused a hostile invasion that... Wasn't really that dangerous to.be honest, but... Could have been devastating.

So I'll counter that Magic isn't needed for this. A nuclear detonation caused the Cataclysm.

One guy could have dangerous scrolls? Another guy could have a suitcase nuke. Another guy could be a 'Borg with their reactor rigged to blow. Another could carry a vial of airborne super pathogen.

So I've pretty much shown that the likelihood of crazy mage is not any more common or dangerous than crazy anyone. Power bolt is less dangerous than a wilks pistol.

To counter your X-Men, I'll use another famous quote:

"You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you're foolish to even try."

The fact that technology is also dangerous does nothing to prove that magic isn't. They are both dangerous. You've also conflated "probability" with "possibility." Your post has shown examples of how there are non-magic things that are dangerous. You've done nothing to even touch on how likely any of this is.

Finally, it was not nuclear weapons alone that caused the cataclysm. It was the exact timing of the deaths and ppe release that caused it. If that exchange and resulting deaths took place at almost any other time, no cataclysm. It was due to the nature of how magic energy works that the cataclysm occurred. Magic energy is directly to blame for the state of Rifts Earth, not nuclear weapons.

No nukes, no Cataclysm. Tech is 100% responsible. Tech unleashed that PPE.

Also probable? One of the potentially most dangerous things in NA is Archie Three. No magic there.

The other most dangerous thing? Hands down? The CS.

[Shark_Force]

if the nukes didn't start the cataclysm, they would still have killed millions of people and rendered a large area of land uninhabitable (or at least, not safely) for a long time. and potentially have resulted in full-scale nuclear war.

[Freemage]

Side-note: In Savage Rifts, it's very likely that the CS' air superiority is vastly reduced, despite the presence of the Death's Head Transports still being heinously over-gunned.

See, in SR, it's been demonstrated that, under the rules, it's possible to build a Ley Line Walker who, as a Legendary character, can spam infinite dragons along the length of a Ley Line (and then for a brief period of time off the Ley Line if needed). Sure, such individuals are few and far between, but it's likely Dunscon has more than a few in his direct service, for instance (and it's almost certain that the lord of the True Federation can pull the trick off, himself). Meaning the CS must be very careful when deploying forces into territory with a heavy Ley Line presence--they could end up with a debacle that would make the Sorcerer's Revenge look like a minor fracas.

*: For the curious: Start with standard LLW. Starting Edges should include Professional/Expert Spellcasting. Base spell selection should include Quickness and Summon Ally. Use the Magic & Mysticism Hero's Journey table to get "one Novice spell not on your list"; select Shapechange. Also use the Enchanted Item Table to get the Big Staff o' Doom--it'll give you a lovely total casting roll of d12+3.

Now, the sequence of casting is:
Pre-casting: Draw on Ley Line to completely max out your pool. As a Novice, this will give you around 45-60 PPE to work with.
Round 1: Cast exalted Quickness, tap Ley Line as a free action. Quick Round 1, cast Force Multiplication to get a few clones (should be able to easily manage 10). All clones tap Ley Line as a free action.
Round 2: You repeat Round 1. Your clones cast Exalted Quickness and tap the Ley Line, then cast Greater Shapechange to become Dire Wolves or Giant Spiders.
Round 3: Now your Shapechanged selves start running down the Ley Line, attacking any CS troops they come across. You just continue to wash, rinse, repeat. Evading bad rolls, you can probably manage a swarm of about a hundred creatures at any one time.

Now, as you level up through the Ranks, your Shapechange spell will become more potent--you'll be able to become Goblins, then Brodkil, then Rhino-Buffaloes, and finally Dragons. (In the earliest publishing, Shapechange was on the Ley Line Walker's list, meaning it could be taken with the full Born a Hero benefit--so you could just go full-on Dragon right from the start. Now, you explicitly get it as a Novice spell, meaning you have to get it fully powered the old-fashioned way.)

[eliakon]

Side-note: In Savage Rifts, it's very likely that the CS' air superiority is vastly reduced, despite the presence of the Death's Head Transports still being heinously over-gunned.

See, in SR, it's been demonstrated that, under the rules, it's possible to build a Ley Line Walker who, as a Legendary character, can spam infinite dragons along the length of a Ley Line (and then for a brief period of time off the Ley Line if needed). Sure, such individuals are few and far between, but it's likely Dunscon has more than a few in his direct service, for instance (and it's almost certain that the lord of the True Federation can pull the trick off, himself). Meaning the CS must be very careful when deploying forces into territory with a heavy Ley Line presence--they could end up with a debacle that would make the Sorcerer's Revenge look like a minor fracas.

*: For the curious: Start with standard LLW. Starting Edges should include Professional/Expert Spellcasting. Base spell selection should include Quickness and Summon Ally. Use the Magic & Mysticism Hero's Journey table to get "one Novice spell not on your list"; select Shapechange. Also use the Enchanted Item Table to get the Big Staff o' Doom--it'll give you a lovely total casting roll of d12+3.

Now, the sequence of casting is:
Pre-casting: Draw on Ley Line to completely max out your pool. As a Novice, this will give you around 45-60 PPE to work with.
Round 1: Cast exalted Quickness, tap Ley Line as a free action. Quick Round 1, cast Force Multiplication to get a few clones (should be able to easily manage 10). All clones tap Ley Line as a free action.
Round 2: You repeat Round 1. Your clones cast Exalted Quickness and tap the Ley Line, then cast Greater Shapechange to become Dire Wolves or Giant Spiders.
Round 3: Now your Shapechanged selves start running down the Ley Line, attacking any CS troops they come across. You just continue to wash, rinse, repeat. Evading bad rolls, you can probably manage a swarm of about a hundred creatures at any one time.

Now, as you level up through the Ranks, your Shapechange spell will become more potent--you'll be able to become Goblins, then Brodkil, then Rhino-Buffaloes, and finally Dragons. (In the earliest publishing, Shapechange was on the Ley Line Walker's list, meaning it could be taken with the full Born a Hero benefit--so you could just go full-on Dragon right from the start. Now, you explicitly get it as a Novice spell, meaning you have to get it fully powered the old-fashioned way.)

So... basically its the same old same old...
Munchkin the system by twisting and abusing things to min-max out to get Phenomenal Kosmic Powah!
You can do that in Palladium as well. *shrugs* it proves nothing other than "Look I can abuse the system" and frankly, provides nothing to a real, rational discussion of the system since the argument that "the most munchkin thing in the game should be considered as being part of the power curve" is, frankly, ludicrous.

[SycophantNagaraja]

Magic is incredibly dangerous. It's not only dangerous in the "oops, here come the Mechanoids" sense, but it's dangerous to society in the "this can't be controlled" sense.

A nuclear reactor is a detectable thing. It produces radiation that is picked up by geiger counters. You'd stop some random dude who was walking around your city with a suitcase nuke. But what about some guy wandering around with a 3 ring binder full of Annihilate scrolls?

It's like the argument that Trask made in X-Men, Days of Future Past. I can't find the exact quote, but he says something to the effect of "Here's a mutant who can look like anyone. Even you, Mr. President. What's to stop her from walking in here and ordering a nuclear strike, if she felt like it?" A mage can walk through walls, turn invisible, read minds, look like someone else, etc. The idea that any random Joe could do this in your society is terrifying, particularly for people who can't perform magic themselves. Who would be in charge of a society like that? Not you, Mr "I have 1D4 PPE". It'll be some dragon or glowing magic guy or something. Just like it is in Lazlo. And Dweomer. Best you could hope for is to get lucky and get a human sorcerer, like Tolkeen had. Course you could also wind up with somebody like Dunscon in charge that way.

You know... Quoting a bad guy doesn't help your argument... One bit.

I think it illustrates the point perfectly. Just because a bad guy believed it, doesn't make it not true. I note that you just skipped over the possibility of a guy walking around with magic scrolls or other items that he can just fire off whenever he feels like it.

But let's quote a good guy instead. Unlike the earlier one, I had no trouble finding this quote:

"Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman," said Gimli. "But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous."

"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous—not least to those who are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless."

Magic completely changes the social order. What does it change it to? Well, that's a good question.

*insert the X men theme* because that's exactly the direction your argument is going and it's a very valid point. The same themes found within the X men series are the same ones faced on Rifts Earth with magic. Although I don't know if we'd see a legacy virus striking down magic users.

[Killer Cyborg]

People love to use the Mechanoids. Fair point, one Shifter opened a Rift and that rift, one out of presumable hundreds of thousands opened every day, caused a hostile invasion that... Wasn't really that dangerous to.be honest, but... Could have been devastating.

The reason why it wasn't devastating?
Plot armor.
Specifically, an assumption that the GM would handle things.
That's it. There was no in-game reason, other than an assumption that PCs would save the day.

So I'll counter that Magic isn't needed for this. A nuclear detonation caused the Cataclysm.

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

One guy could have dangerous scrolls? Another guy could have a suitcase nuke. Another guy could be a 'Borg with their reactor rigged to blow. Another could carry a vial of airborne super pathogen.

So I've pretty much shown that the likelihood of crazy mage is not any more common or dangerous than crazy anyone. Power bolt is less dangerous than a wilks pistol.

In straight combat, magic and tech are pretty balanced.
But one lone shifter trying to show off nearly destroyed... well, everything that isn't a mechanoid.
And it didn't have to be mechanoids; magical rifts spew dangerous stuff out into the world all the time. It could be demons, undead, xiticix... and all the other stuff that makes Rifts Earth so deadly.
The stuff that magic has brought in.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you still don't understand why the key part of the phrase is "may be," I suggest that you look up modal verbs and enlighten yourself.

My wife has a masters degree in linguistics and is working on her doctorate. I'm well aware of how the language works.

You're still unequivocally wrong, because the phrase is NOT "there may be up to 30 or 40 million or more.

It doesn't say "or more". It has a definitive cap. The two links i posted DO, in fact, absolutely refute what you're saying. As does my wife.

That is how the english language works in this instance. You're wrong, and im done "discussing" it with you. If you want to keep exercising Axel-like mental gymnastics to make yourself feel like you're not wrong, ill be happy to add you to the medium sized list of people who have nothing intelligent to add and put you on ignore.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Yes, assuming that the GM wants to be generous and rule that way then sure it works.

There's nothing generous about anything.

But that requires some pretty big assumptions.

It requires nothing but basic common sense.

Like assuming that the Bugs just sit there and do nothing

Im assuming that the bugs go batcrap insane, actually, and swarm immediately. You're the one that made a bad assumption here.

Or that the Bugs are fine with other flyers in there territory

No, they categorically hate the hell out of it. But they dont have long range radar or means of detection. DHTs can travel WELL above Xiticix flight ceiling. They wont know those fliers are in their territory until they drop out of the sky to pick up the troops.

Or that the bugs just sit around and let you fly up unmolested

They can literally do NOTHING to prevent it. They have a flight ceiling of 2000ft. DHTs can hit 10,000+

After all those DHTs are actually pretty fragile when you start getting into numbers.
One bug? No problem.
a couple hundred bugs taking a pot shot? Your in trouble.
A thousand? Thou Art Dead.

First those bugs have to be aware that you are there. Then they have to assemble, and fly to where you are. Then they have to shoot you. They have to ignore the people firing back at them, and decide to shoot the things that ARENT shooting at them, instead of the things actively trying to kill them. (As i wouldn't even have the DHTs engage weapons).

Again, the only one making stupid assumptions here is you.

Its a case of "well if everything goes according to plan then the plan works"
Could it work? Sure. But that doesn't make it some sort of sure bet. It just means that it is theoretically possible.

Its EASILY possible.

CS High Command radios Holmes - "Okay, next monday, well have all the DHTs we need to lift you guys out. Find the clearest spot you can, and well radio you when we're ready".
Holmes: "Okay"
Holmes to his troops: "Okay, on monday the infantry has to be ready to embark DHTs under fire as fast as possible".

Next monday comes, and the first inkling the bugs have that ANYTHING is happening is when the DHTs drop out of the sky and start loading infantry. They then have to get enough numbers organized to attack, and while im sure theyd send whatever was closest immediately, those immediately-available troops are going to be gunned down in lots by SAMs and other long-range capable forces in Holmes' army.

The DHTs take off as soon as they are loaded. They ascend immediately to ~7,000ft+ and are completely unassailable by the bugs. They leave. When the infantry is evacuated, the PA, Skycycle and Rocket Cycle forces immediately lift off and bug out.

The whole thing could be over in 30 minutes, provided the CS has enough DHTs.

Now, im perfectly willing to grant that we have no idea how many DHTs the CS actually has. It's never said. But if enough exist to do a one-trip airlift of Holmes' infantry, it's a done deal. The bugs dont know its coming, have no way to detect it until it is already under way, the infantry can load into the DHTs almost immediately (ramps are wide enough for an entire squad abreast even on the vanilla DHT, on the Sky Lifter a whole company could embark in 60 seconds), and poof, they're gone. They fly far faster than the bugs, and almost all of the other flyers (PA, Cycles) have higher ceilings than the bugs and even those that dont outpace them massively. At best, the swarm gets a few pot-shots at them on the way out.

Unless you're trying to intimate that the bugs can go from "hey there are lots of flyers out there all of a sudden" to "we have swarmed into the tens of th ousands and are on the scene in 2 minutes" - there's little they could do to stop it.

[eliakon]

Yes, assuming that the GM wants to be generous and rule that way then sure it works.

There's nothing generous about anything.

Um, yes there is

But that requires some pretty big assumptions.

It requires nothing but basic common sense.

and a helping of plot

Like assuming that the Bugs just sit there and do nothing

Im assuming that the bugs go batcrap insane, actually, and swarm immediately. You're the one that made a bad assumption here.

odd, we seem to have different definitions of what 'swarm' means then

Or that the Bugs are fine with other flyers in there territory

No, they categorically hate the hell out of it. But they dont have long range radar or means of detection. DHTs can travel WELL above Xiticix flight ceiling. They wont know those fliers are in their territory until they drop out of the sky to pick up the troops.

Or you know one of them sees them with their Mk1 eyeball.
You can't exactly prowl in the air.

Or that the bugs just sit around and let you fly up unmolested

They can literally do NOTHING to prevent it. They have a flight ceiling of 2000ft. DHTs can hit 10,000+

And again your assuming that some how they just magically let you land unmolested?
That's pretty generous of you.
That whole "swarming the convoy" thing and all you see.

After all those DHTs are actually pretty fragile when you start getting into numbers.
One bug? No problem.
a couple hundred bugs taking a pot shot? Your in trouble.
A thousand? Thou Art Dead.

First those bugs have to be aware that you are there. Then they have to assemble, and fly to where you are. Then they have to shoot you. They have to ignore the people firing back at them, and decide to shoot the things that ARENT shooting at them, instead of the things actively trying to kill them. (As i wouldn't even have the DHTs engage weapons).

Again, the only one making stupid assumptions here is you.

I am sort of assuming that "Swarm of Xictic already in contact with the convoy since they retreated into the hivelands under fire" sort of means that they are already there.
That means that its a hot LZ with thousands, possibly tens of thousands of bugs flying around...
...vast numbers of which have TK rifles.
Its not "stupid" to assume that a force in contact is, you know, already in contact.
Its sort of definitional.

Its a case of "well if everything goes according to plan then the plan works"
Could it work? Sure. But that doesn't make it some sort of sure bet. It just means that it is theoretically possible.

Its EASILY possible.

CS High Command radios Holmes - "Okay, next monday, well have all the DHTs we need to lift you guys out. Find the clearest spot you can, and well radio you when we're ready".
Holmes: "Okay"
Holmes to his troops: "Okay, on monday the infantry has to be ready to embark DHTs under fire as fast as possible".

Next monday comes, and the first inkling the bugs have that ANYTHING is happening is when the DHTs drop out of the sky and start loading infantry. They then have to get enough numbers organized to attack, and while im sure theyd send whatever was closest immediately, those immediately-available troops are going to be gunned down in lots by SAMs and other long-range capable forces in Holmes' army.

The DHTs take off as soon as they are loaded. They ascend immediately to ~7,000ft+ and are completely unassailable by the bugs. They leave. When the infantry is evacuated, the PA, Skycycle and Rocket Cycle forces immediately lift off and bug out.

The whole thing could be over in 30 minutes, provided the CS has enough DHTs.

Now, im perfectly willing to grant that we have no idea how many DHTs the CS actually has. It's never said. But if enough exist to do a one-trip airlift of Holmes' infantry, it's a done deal. The bugs dont know its coming, have no way to detect it until it is already under way, the infantry can load into the DHTs almost immediately (ramps are wide enough for an entire squad abreast even on the vanilla DHT, on the Sky Lifter a whole company could embark in 60 seconds), and poof, they're gone. They fly far faster than the bugs, and almost all of the other flyers (PA, Cycles) have higher ceilings than the bugs and even those that dont outpace them massively. At best, the swarm gets a few pot-shots at them on the way out.

Unless you're trying to intimate that the bugs can go from "hey there are lots of flyers out there all of a sudden" to "we have swarmed into the tens of th ousands and are on the scene in 2 minutes" - there's little they could do to stop it.

Like I said... in a perfect universe that is totally unlike the actual written books it works.
But that is sort of like saying that if they called for a million unicorns to come save them it would work to...

Because your perfect plan is predicated on the bugs not being where the books said they were, not noticing anything, and then just sitting around watching while the CS loads up (which is going to take a heck of a lot longer than just a 'couple minutes')

Its pure pie in the sky.

[Killer Cyborg]

Murphy's Laws of Combat
#40. No plan survives the first enemy contact.

[Freemage]

Side-note: In Savage Rifts, it's very likely that the CS' air superiority is vastly reduced, despite the presence of the Death's Head Transports still being heinously over-gunned.

See, in SR, it's been demonstrated that, under the rules, it's possible to build a Ley Line Walker who, as a Legendary character, can spam infinite dragons along the length of a Ley Line (and then for a brief period of time off the Ley Line if needed). Sure, such individuals are few and far between, but it's likely Dunscon has more than a few in his direct service, for instance (and it's almost certain that the lord of the True Federation can pull the trick off, himself). Meaning the CS must be very careful when deploying forces into territory with a heavy Ley Line presence--they could end up with a debacle that would make the Sorcerer's Revenge look like a minor fracas.

*: For the curious: Start with standard LLW. Starting Edges should include Professional/Expert Spellcasting. Base spell selection should include Quickness and Summon Ally. Use the Magic & Mysticism Hero's Journey table to get "one Novice spell not on your list"; select Shapechange. Also use the Enchanted Item Table to get the Big Staff o' Doom--it'll give you a lovely total casting roll of d12+3.

Now, the sequence of casting is:
Pre-casting: Draw on Ley Line to completely max out your pool. As a Novice, this will give you around 45-60 PPE to work with.
Round 1: Cast exalted Quickness, tap Ley Line as a free action. Quick Round 1, cast Force Multiplication to get a few clones (should be able to easily manage 10). All clones tap Ley Line as a free action.
Round 2: You repeat Round 1. Your clones cast Exalted Quickness and tap the Ley Line, then cast Greater Shapechange to become Dire Wolves or Giant Spiders.
Round 3: Now your Shapechanged selves start running down the Ley Line, attacking any CS troops they come across. You just continue to wash, rinse, repeat. Evading bad rolls, you can probably manage a swarm of about a hundred creatures at any one time.

Now, as you level up through the Ranks, your Shapechange spell will become more potent--you'll be able to become Goblins, then Brodkil, then Rhino-Buffaloes, and finally Dragons. (In the earliest publishing, Shapechange was on the Ley Line Walker's list, meaning it could be taken with the full Born a Hero benefit--so you could just go full-on Dragon right from the start. Now, you explicitly get it as a Novice spell, meaning you have to get it fully powered the old-fashioned way.)

So... basically its the same old same old...
Munchkin the system by twisting and abusing things to min-max out to get Phenomenal Kosmic Powah!
You can do that in Palladium as well. *shrugs* it proves nothing other than "Look I can abuse the system" and frankly, provides nothing to a real, rational discussion of the system since the argument that "the most munchkin thing in the game should be considered as being part of the power curve" is, frankly, ludicrous.

1: Perhaps then we should also ditch the Death's Head Transport, since that's the most munchkin thing on the other side of the equation? Or is gear somehow exempt from being considered munchkin-y? We'll cut out the nukes, too, since those are obviously OP as hell.
2: There's a difference between what's possible in the world and what would fly at a table. The former is useful for figuring out why the world might be the way it is--in this case, the possibility of massive strikes along ley lines serves as a hedge against the CS' techno superiority when it comes to air power. The latter, OTOH, is a different kettle of fish. I'd never bring this particular character to the table, and if someone brought it to mine, I'd point out that they've got a target the size of Alaska on their forehead, and that drawing massive amounts of energy from a Ley Line all at once might have unintended consequences, such as Ley Line storms, spontaneous Rift openings, becoming trapped in a Fadetown shift, and so on. If they ignored that polite warning and continued to not only play the character but make regular use of the tactic, I'd have no hesitation in hitting them with random bad consequences--just as I would have no issue with having a CS player who decided to briefcase nuke the City of Brass get something very, very bad happening for his efforts.

In short, I'm not talking about the PCs being somehow able to prevent the CS from maintaining control over the entire airspace of North America; I'm simply pointing out that there's system support for such limits existing in the world as-writ.

[Axelmania]

Like the CS apologized for murdering Tolkeen civilians before the war started? Do you actually think the CS has the right to do whatever they want to whoever they want?

What Incident are you referring to here?

I thought perhaps Operation Fullbore (Chalk's Folly) in 104 PA but sedition106 is vague on whether anyone but CS Troops died...

"if anything had been living there before, it could not be told now"

claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous.

Agreed.
Again, a lone shifter attempting to show off, brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, which (if not for some bands of plucky heroes) would have literally ended with the destruction of the entire planet.
Just for starts.

WB16p10 "a Shifter experimenting in opening a Rift to an alien world, unleashed a force of winged demons that laid waste to a quarter if the Grand City and ravaged the Burbs of Chi-Town."

Its like it happens biweekly or something.

I'm not a CS = Nazi denialist. For crying out loud, they ran concentration camps during SoT, and orders were issued to 'mist' the camps when the war was in the final days, after they won.

Denialist? Sounds like people are now implying we are similar for Holocaust denialists for not labeling the States "Nazis"

Jews weren't Shifters. Gypsies weren't Brodkil. An army running a prison camp doesn't make them Nazi Germany.

The Nazis were not the first or last group to execute prisoners or detainees. It is sensationalism to call any group that does that a Nazi. We have plenty of other terms we can use to describe behavior like that.

[dreicunan]

If you still don't understand why the key part of the phrase is "may be," I suggest that you look up modal verbs and enlighten yourself.

My wife has a masters degree in linguistics and is working on her doctorate. I'm well aware of how the language works.

You're still unequivocally wrong, because the phrase is NOT "there may be up to 30 or 40 million or more.

It doesn't say "or more". It has a definitive cap. The two links i posted DO, in fact, absolutely refute what you're saying. As does my wife.

That is how the english language works in this instance. You're wrong, and im done "discussing" it with you. If you want to keep exercising Axel-like mental gymnastics to make yourself feel like you're not wrong, ill be happy to add you to the medium sized list of people who have nothing intelligent to add and put you on ignore.

You cited two websites (actually, you basically cited one, since the first site cites the second site that cited as its support) dealing with the meaning of "as many as." I've never disputed the meaning of the phrase, and that has nothing to do with my argument, because whether it is in the sentence or not doesn't change the fact that "may be" is not making a definitive statement; it can't do so because "may" expresses either permission or possibility.

Here, try this out: "There may be no more than 30-40 million people on the continent." Would you interpret that as providing a definitive cap? After all, it has "no more than" in it. No one would, because of the presence of "may be." Now, why would the common interpretation of "there may be as many as" be that it is saying that many and no more? Because many people do what the person in the first site that you cited did: They read a phrase like "there may be as many as 30-40 million people" and then they add a comma and the phrase "but (there are) no more" despite the fact that the latter phrase isn't stated. When something isn't stated, it isn't stated. Thus statements like "there may be as many as" "there may be" and "there may be no more than" don't do anything to give definitive statement about quantity. They can't on their own, because "may" isn't capable of making a definitive statement.

Before you add me to the ignore list, try running that last paragraph past your wife. I have difficulty believing that anyone working on a doctoral degree in linguistics would disagree with it (I have some degrees of my own).

[boring7]

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

This analogy is terrible. There was no ritual that started the rifts, just death.

In straight combat, magic and tech are pretty balanced.
But one lone shifter trying to show off nearly destroyed... well, everything that isn't a mechanoid.
And it didn't have to be mechanoids; magical rifts spew dangerous stuff out into the world all the time. It could be demons, undead, xiticix... and all the other stuff that makes Rifts Earth so deadly.
The stuff that magic has brought in.

You keep bringing this up, but it's just as unreasonable as saying "the mechanoids are technological in nature, therefore magic isn't to blame." (Both arguments qualify as "completely unreasonable").

And the fundamental question is not "is magic more dangerous?" (again, it's apples-to-oranges) but "what is to be done about the danger?" The whole idea of the Coalition is to burn, kill, or lock away in a vault anything even remotely related to magic. Don't study and control it, don't try to understand it, just shoot anyone who knows anything and hope it will magically (heh) go away; despite the fact that it first "showed up" because of something completely non-magical.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

This analogy is terrible. There was no ritual that started the rifts, just death.

Massive deaths, when the planets/stars/whatever were aligned in a certain position that allowed the magic energy to get sucked from people's bodies into the magic lines of energy that were already there.
It wasn't (as far as we've been told) an actual deliberate ritual, but the effects were much the same as if it was a blood sacrifice.

In straight combat, magic and tech are pretty balanced.
But one lone shifter trying to show off nearly destroyed... well, everything that isn't a mechanoid.
And it didn't have to be mechanoids; magical rifts spew dangerous stuff out into the world all the time. It could be demons, undead, xiticix... and all the other stuff that makes Rifts Earth so deadly.
The stuff that magic has brought in.

You keep bringing this up, but it's just as unreasonable as saying "the mechanoids are technological in nature, therefore magic isn't to blame." (Both arguments qualify as "completely unreasonable").

Notice that I already just covered that, with the bolded portion.
The mechanoids were one danger that magic brought in, but hardly the only one.
The main danger isn't necessarily in any one threat, but in the ability to bring untold threats to this world.

And the fundamental question is not "is magic more dangerous?" (again, it's apples-to-oranges) but "what is to be done about the danger?"

I'm not addressing the fundamental question, then.
I'm addressing the question of whether or not magic is insanely dangerous in the Palladium settings, and it is.

The whole idea of the Coalition is to burn, kill, or lock away in a vault anything even remotely related to magic. Don't study and control it, don't try to understand it, just shoot anyone who knows anything and hope it will magically (heh) go away; despite the fact that it first "showed up" because of something completely non-magical.

There is nothing non-magical about people's internal magical energy getting sucked into magical lines of energy around the planet, and causing magical storms.

[eliakon]

There is nothing non-magical about people's internal magical energy getting sucked into magical lines of energy around the planet, and causing magical storms.

Actually this begs the question.
At what point do we separate "fundamental forces of reality" and "magic"
Because arguing that the building block of life is inherently dangerous is patently absurd.
After all, gravity is dangerous, 100% of people exposed to it die.

Not to mention that it requires defining the normal, natural operation of the universe as none natural, which is inherently flawed.

[Axelmania]

The whole idea of the Coalition is to burn, kill, or lock away in a vault anything even remotely related to magic. Don't study and control it, don't try to understand it, just shoot anyone who knows anything and hope it will magically (heh) go away; despite the fact that it first "showed up" because of something completely non-magical.

This would be proven untrue by Coalition soldiers having Lore: Magic. Then they would be studying it and trying to understand it.

The "Rift Control and Study Group" take that a step.further. They are working to control it and are experimenting with drifting and healing from the lines.

They dont shoot anyone who knows... The CS has hired mages as mercenaries and are presently working with them to stop demons.

[Killer Cyborg]

There is nothing non-magical about people's internal magical energy getting sucked into magical lines of energy around the planet, and causing magical storms.

Actually this begs the question.
At what point do we separate "fundamental forces of reality" and "magic"
Because arguing that the building block of life is inherently dangerous is patently absurd.
After all, gravity is dangerous, 100% of people exposed to it die.

Not to mention that it requires defining the normal, natural operation of the universe as none natural, which is inherently flawed.

The separation is whether of not it detects as Magic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

*snipping for size*

Stop playing the victim card.

Humanity IS a victim. Unless you count BILLIONS of lifes and like 99% of civilization lost as no big deal. That's some mighty selective perception.

The fact that you think the Tolkeen civilians should have picked up and run because the CS said so is sick.

That's not 'sick' that's survival. We've gone into this before. __EVERYONE__ on earth told them to run, or they'd die. they chose to stay, dive into the depths of evil. And know what? They died. That was their choice. History proves it was a stupid one.

Blaming the victim rather than the victimizer.

Humans didn't invade THEIR planet. They came and invaded ours.

If you didn't want me to beat you baby, then you shouldn't have made me mad.

Also... Invasion? Please. Tell that lie to people who are stupid.

Well, I don't speculate on your intelligence level Walsh.....

That said. yes, they invaded earth. "Ivade: To enter, a place, situation, sphere of activity, in large numbers, especially with intrusive effect.

Yes... Invasion is exactly what happened. Maybe you noticed all the 100s and 100s of documented and statted out monsters, demons, etc, not to mention all the 1000s that haven't been statted out in books yet?

D-Bees didn't largely invade Earth.

By definition they surely did.

Moron humans caused a massive disaster that ripped them from their homes and plopped them on a strange alien world. The books even say 75% of D-Bees aren't a threat and don't want to hurt humanity.

Really? Show me where it says that.

Also, circles back around to the literal 100s of years of predation on the human race by those that DO want to hurt humanity. After dozens of generations the humans stopped being stupid enough to give them the benifit of the doubt, to rip their spines out through their chests.

The CS has claim to nothing but their kingdom.

Because you say so? The CS are Humans, earth is our planet. The rest are invading. I.E. from some where else.

They INVADED Tolkeen which the civilians of the CS WRONGLY thought was a threat, but leaders KNEW it wasn't.

It _WAS_ a threat. Evil leader? Check. Evil Generals? Check. Witches, neuron beasts? Check Check, Literal ARMIES OF THOUSANDS OF SUPERNATURAL EVIL DEMONS? Check.

you have some very selective memory there Walsh. Tolkeen -was- evil when the CS came a nocking.

They know magic isn't dangerous and they know humans and D-Bees can live side by side in peace.

Magic is Dangerous. It can be concealed by anyone and instantly inflict megadamage with a few words and wave of the hand. I'm not sure who your'e trying to fool but if I can shoot a MD fireball that would blow all the way through a modern day tank with a flick of my wrist and a few words.... I'd say that's pretty dangerous.

Lazlo.

The existence of Lazlo nullifies all of your arguments.

No it doesn't. No more than a single commune of 50 people working under communisim means it can work on a large scale. Or any other 'thing' in microcosm. Tolkeen is having problems too. Their crime rate has skyrocketed. Why? The refugees from Tolkeen.

Lazlo nullifies nothing. Just because some people can handle nukes responsibly doesn't mean they're not dangerous and everyone should have them.

[Pepsi Jedi]

And the entire "Humans own the earth" argument is false on its face since we know for a fact that
1) there were non-humans on earth before

Not before humans. And questionable at best. There are hints that some may have existed along side humanity but never held dominion over the earth.

2) at no time in human history has the concept of "racial ownership" ever been considered to apply

I'm really not sure what you're on about. Ownership of land has been around since we started divying up the place by tribes. In EVERY Time in history, the concept of land ownership has been present. Even tribes in the rain forests know not to go "Over there" because that part of the forrest belongs to the 'other' tribe.

3) the CS is not the representatives of humanity

They're a large group of millions of humans. One of the largest still on the planet and they bail out other countries of millions of humans. They have a claim on the planet as all humans do.

Thus the CS is just as much an invader as Tolkeen.

So by your logic, the CS invaded their OWN planet? From the alien invaders and tresspassers? LOL good luck selling that.

Then there is the entirely false "We didn't know what was right and wrong" card

Not sure who said that?

Bzzzzt Palladium is not our world. In the Palladium universe there is OBJECTIVE good and evil

And we're told, in the books, in canon source, that the vast majority of the CS populace is good.

Things are evil because they are evil and good because they are good.

And the majority of the CS is good.

It is ALWAYS evil to do X. You can rewrite the rules if you want, but then you are not playing in the setting in which the author put the CS or looking at the moral situations that the ACTUAL CS is in but instead you are looking at your own version of a completely different moral situation.

No. I'm not. I'm stipulating the actual setting of the book that is written out in plain black and white b ut so many people seem to ignore. Along side the black and white words that have told us the majority of the CS population is NOT evil.

We can then move on to the myth of the "all these murderous D-Bees"
Because it doesn't hold up.
It really, really, really, really doesn't.
When you start looking at the actual facts it falls down on its face.

100s of years of human predation says you're lieing.

ESPECIALLY if you look at it as someone from 1PA and not someone 1CE

Even at 1PA there was a ton, and still are a ton of murderous Dbees. If nothing else the existance of the Xits, Vampires, Atlantis, all prove it. There are tens of millions of murderous Dbees. Maybe you missed all those books.

After 300 years you would have the lore to know that the vast majority of races are peaceful and not harmful. The CS command point of fact knows this but they do not care. They are not interested in co-existence they want sole-existence. And that requires ignoring facts. Which is what their defenders do as well.

No again. after dozens of generations crawling back up out of the muck and batteling invaders of all stripes and colors it became easier to lump anything non human in a group and label it bad. vs risk the life of your husband, wife, daughter, on the chance that THIS Monster might not eat little girls for breakfast.

Again I point you back to 9-11, and just 3,000 people dieing and the MAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE cultural shift it invoked that we're still feeling today. The Cheeto is STILL Trying to get a muslim ban, and that was (sounds wrong to say it this way) "just" 3,000 people. The coming of Rifts killed ___BILLIONS____ and for 100s of years the invaders kept killing and killing and killing and killing and killing.

To ignore all that is to engage in selective ignorance on a massive scale.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sorry, but the original poster is right.
It's plot armour, and not well-done at that.
Holmes and Co. should be dead... if not from the Xiticix (and yes, I follow what was put in that book totally) then of starvation and dehydration. Possibly some cannibalism.

Not at all. The bugs decimated the force, but it was a newfactor that had never before been tried or witnessed on earth.

As for starvation? Naa. They weren't gone that long. It's not like they don't have MRE's in the APC's

[Pepsi Jedi]

Sorry, but the original poster is right.
It's plot armour, and not well-done at that.
Holmes and Co. should be dead... if not from the Xiticix (and yes, I follow what was put in that book totally) then of starvation and dehydration. Possibly some cannibalism.

Nah, if not for plot armor, Holmes and company would have been resupplied from Chi-Town. It's only about a 45 minute flight by Death's Head Transport. The Rule of Drama prevented the Coalition from actually using their enormous speed advantage, and made them march around like they were an American Civil War army.

in xiticix territory? yeah, that isn't happening.

i'll grant that people holding the stupid ball kept the CS from just airlifting their entire army to surround tolkeen (the city) from day 1.

but no, death's head transports are not a viable option for resupplying an army in the middle of bug country.

They move at Mach speeds.. And can hover... So you could fly in at Mach 1. Drop to low altitude. Hover and drop off supplies, and fly out before one bug could catch up.

Same as they could have just flown up, picked them up and left. lol

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, assuming that the army was never with in a mile or so of the bugs that is true.
But that is a pretty big "if"
And since the Army was in contact with the bugs then yes, showing up with anything means you are in range of getting shot.

And the bugs are therefore in range to be shot back at. They aren't likely to concentrate their fire on the DHTs (they dont really know what theyre for) and are likely to shoot back at the things shooting at them. The DHTs dont have to loiter for a long time to load the infantry. The bugs' long range guns dont exactly do heavy damage. Once the infantry are on board, they can bug out (pun?), and the guys in PA, skycycles, etc, can just go.

The fastest bug is still several hundred MPH slower than a Sam, Skycycle, Rocketcycle, or DHT.

Would it have been a landing under fire? Sure. Would the vast majority of them have gotten out? Yes, easily. The bugs just dont have the long-range firepower to bring the DHTs down fast enough before they can leave.

Yes, assuming that the GM wants to be generous and rule that way then sure it works.
But that requires some pretty big assumptions.
Like assuming that the Bugs just sit there and do nothing
Or that the Bugs are fine with other flyers in there territory
Or that the bugs just sit around and let you fly up unmolested
After all those DHTs are actually pretty fragile when you start getting into numbers.
One bug? No problem.
a couple hundred bugs taking a pot shot? Your in trouble.
A thousand? Thou Art Dead.

Its a case of "well if everything goes according to plan then the plan works"
Could it work? Sure. But that doesn't make it some sort of sure bet. It just means that it is theoretically possible.

For the bugs to be a problem for a DTH would assume that there's 1000s of them just sitting in a cloud over the entire hivelands. That's not how they're represented. The DHT could be in and out before the bugs can mobilize. Again they fly at supersonic speeds. They don't need landing strips. They could fly in at MACH. Come to a complete stop and hover, and or land. Load up toorps and then be out on a different vector in minutes. They could just RAM what ever bugs are in their way at supersonic speed if they wished (But they have weapons too.)

By the time the bugs go 'Big black thing on ground over there!" and start boiling out of their hive to come and enguage, the DHT can just zip away.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No nukes, no Cataclysm. Tech is 100% responsible. Tech unleashed that PPE.

Also probable? One of the potentially most dangerous things in NA is Archie Three. No magic there.

The other most dangerous thing? Hands down? The CS.

I would say that the most dangerous thing in NA is the Xits, and second most dangerous is the Vampire Kingdoms.

Or Atlantis as the first, depending on if you put it in NA or not.

[jaymz]

Plot armour? Yes.

Invincible? Well HoH sure as hell makes them look pretty damn vulnerable and ready to be potentially plucked.

Nazis? Nazi-ish but not full blown Nazis.

[Shark_Force]

Plot armour? Yes.

Invincible? Well HoH sure as hell makes them look pretty damn vulnerable and ready to be potentially plucked.

Nazis? Nazi-ish but not full blown Nazis.

which part of recruiting several million people into their army, including a large number of mercenaries that could have potentially been hired to fight against them previously, makes them look vulnerable and ready to be plucked? because to me, that sounds suspiciously like the exact opposite of vulnerability.

[jaymz]

Then we didn't read the same book because last I checked recruitment wasn't the only thing discussed in that book.

Resource issues, food shortages on the horizon, manufacturing problems.....army size will be irrelevant if you can't reequip or resupply or feed and care your populace. (Which is already happening in regards to spare and replacement parts and some food rationing going on)

And I said ready to be POTENTIALLY plucked not ready to be plucked.

[boring7]

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

This analogy is terrible. There was no ritual that started the rifts, just death.

Massive deaths, when the planets/stars/whatever were aligned in a certain position that allowed the magic energy to get sucked from people's bodies into the magic lines of energy that were already there.
It wasn't (as far as we've been told) an actual deliberate ritual, but the effects were much the same as if it was a blood sacrifice.

Circular logic. Magic is bad because rifts, the rifts were magic because they were bad.

In straight combat, magic and tech are pretty balanced.
But one lone shifter trying to show off nearly destroyed... well, everything that isn't a mechanoid.
And it didn't have to be mechanoids; magical rifts spew dangerous stuff out into the world all the time. It could be demons, undead, xiticix... and all the other stuff that makes Rifts Earth so deadly.
The stuff that magic has brought in.

You keep bringing this up, but it's just as unreasonable as saying "the mechanoids are technological in nature, therefore magic isn't to blame." (Both arguments qualify as "completely unreasonable").

Notice that I already just covered that, with the bolded portion.
The mechanoids were one danger that magic brought in, but hardly the only one.
The main danger isn't necessarily in any one threat, but in the ability to bring untold threats to this world.

Not really. The whole reason The Mechanoids are such a threat is their overwhelming power and viral nature. One which is largely thanks to their technological nature.

And the fundamental question is not "is magic more dangerous?" (again, it's apples-to-oranges) but "what is to be done about the danger?"

I'm not addressing the fundamental question, then.
I'm addressing the question of whether or not magic is insanely dangerous in the Palladium settings, and it is.

Fair enough, you're still saying "Apples are Objectively Worse Than Oranges" while constantly failing to define (or changing the definition) of the scale you're using to measure better/worse.

Actually this begs the question.
At what point do we separate "fundamental forces of reality" and "magic"
Because arguing that the building block of life is inherently dangerous is patently absurd.
After all, gravity is dangerous, 100% of people exposed to it die.

Not to mention that it requires defining the normal, natural operation of the universe as none natural, which is inherently flawed.

The separation is whether of not it detects as Magic.

There's nothing to indicate death release pings on detect magic unless funneled into a magic spell. RUE 176 says: "Human users of magic do not radiate magic energies until they call upon them." RUE 186 has more on blood sacrifice and doesn't say that the extra PPE collected are detectable in any way. See Aura detects the presense of magic and relative level of PPE, but is likewise vague.

Further the magic was not "sucked in", it naturally gravitates to ley-lines.

[Shark_Force]

last i recall, the book basically says that if another complete and utter disaster hits the CS, then they might have problems. maybe

which makes sense, because when you have 1.6 million SAMAS that you just put into mothballs a couple years ago, and who knows how many sets of regular infantry gear (presumably a bare minimum of one for every soldier they had in the army at the time though, since everyone had to have at least one set, never mind the replacements they would have had stockpiled for them) and other old-style CS vehicles, a few million people joining your army bloody well shouldn't mean you're out of gear. especially when some of them are bringing their own gear with them.

meanwhile, in the last war the CS was in, they apparently didn't even feel the need to ration anything. and so far as i'm aware, they were still exporting food (that being one of the things the NGR was looking to trade for) that entire time as well. so i'm having a hard time believing that they want from "we have so much of everything we don't even need to ration *anything* to help with the war effort" to "totally out of stuff entirely". particularly since from what i remember, there are roaming murder squads killing anything that doesn't look unsuspicious enough in the 'burbs, which means they don't need to feed those mouths. in fact, quite frankly, they were apparently feeding all their citizens, plus the people in the 'burbs, plus were supposedly feeding a large portion of the rest of north america (stupid as that is, it is also what the setting information claimed).

so, supposedly they were feeding most of those people before anyways, just now they have fewer steps in between the food going from the CS to those people. i'm having a hard time believing that they went from being able to feed all those people before, to suddenly not being able to feed all those people, when none of their food production has actually been hit.

(also, last i recall they are about to lose a lot of those soldiers, which means that the total amount of food they need to produce is about to decrease anyways. so they were already feeding a lot of those people, and now they're about to need to feed a lot less of them because dead people don't need food).

this is the problem with giving them a completely stupid amount of resources in the first place. yesterday they had so many SAMAS they didn't even know what to do with them. the resource problem the CS has had in the setting isn't that they don't have enough, it's that they have been producing far too much for them to be able to even come close to using it all. well, now they've got a way to use some of it.

again, i'm not buying the CS suddenly being "ripe for plucking". unless the harvest you want is to be buried under so many railgun slugs that even if the impact didn't kill you, you would die of starvation under a mountain of rusting iron. because if you want that, then yes, the CS is more capable of giving you that than they were before.

[boring7]

Then we didn't read the same book because last I checked recruitment wasn't the only thing discussed in that book.

Resource issues, food shortages on the horizon, manufacturing problems.....army size will be irrelevant if you can't reequip or resupply or feed and care your populace. (Which is already happening in regards to spare and replacement parts and some food rationing going on)

And I said ready to be POTENTIALLY plucked not ready to be plucked.

One of the operative terms is "force multipliers". CS shortages are resulting in deadboys with substandard gear and thus higher casualties. Likewise their fear/hate of magic and the supernatural leaves them using substandard tools to fight it.

As a result the difference is being made up by magical support from outsiders, at least at the moment. Soldier types that used to be illegal (cyborgs, juicers) are seeing widespread use. There's even black-ops magic wielders (no idea how THAT'S supposed to work...are they just using magic items, going through a Valley Of The Jedi, or just ignoring the "learning magic takes a long time" rule?). They even have Jericho Holmes, the popular up-and-comer loved by his men and known to be fair-minded and righteous (except the fact that he got up close and personal with the standard CS war crimes and has yet to show any remorse or concern).

Most of the plot elements are (sort of) in place for a shake-up in CS politics and major reforms, but pessimism and the fact that such things have been available (and squandered) before mean most of us expect it to either disappear or be nullified by some event that's basically just a ham-fisted excuse for "Status Quo is God" to continue to reign the CS and nothing else.

And yeah, the sudden resource shortage is as weird as their previous excesses. It's not 100% impossible in every way, but any explanation/excuse is just a bit weak.

[HWalsh]

Then we didn't read the same book because last I checked recruitment wasn't the only thing discussed in that book.

Resource issues, food shortages on the horizon, manufacturing problems.....army size will be irrelevant if you can't reequip or resupply or feed and care your populace. (Which is already happening in regards to spare and replacement parts and some food rationing going on)

And I said ready to be POTENTIALLY plucked not ready to be plucked.

One of the operative terms is "force multipliers". CS shortages are resulting in deadboys with substandard gear and thus higher casualties. Likewise their fear/hate of magic and the supernatural leaves them using substandard tools to fight it.

As a result the difference is being made up by magical support from outsiders, at least at the moment. Soldier types that used to be illegal (cyborgs, juicers) are seeing widespread use. There's even black-ops magic wielders (no idea how THAT'S supposed to work...are they just using magic items, going through a Valley Of The Jedi, or just ignoring the "learning magic takes a long time" rule?). They even have Jericho Holmes, the popular up-and-comer loved by his men and known to be fair-minded and righteous (except the fact that he got up close and personal with the standard CS war crimes and has yet to show any remorse or concern).

Most of the plot elements are (sort of) in place for a shake-up in CS politics and major reforms, but pessimism and the fact that such things have been available (and squandered) before mean most of us expect it to either disappear or be nullified by some event that's basically just a ham-fisted excuse for "Status Quo is God" to continue to reign the CS and nothing else.

And yeah, the sudden resource shortage is as weird as their previous excesses. It's not 100% impossible in every way, but any explanation/excuse is just a bit weak.

The problem with the resource issue is this:

There were no lines in HoH to even suggest that this should impact the game.

For example if it had said:

"Resources have become so scarce the Coalition States have had to begin issuing old-style SAMAS to new pilots because their supply of new-style SAMAS is beginning to run low. The CS is spinning this by stating that the new Power Armors are only given to pilots of a certain rank or higher."

"Resources have become to scarce that the Coalition States is purposing old-style Deadboy armor with a new paint job and claiming that it is new, "anti-demon" armor. Some of the men issued these, who wore old style armor, are noticing the deception and are starting to ask questions."

"Karl Prosek was livid over the recent resource shortage. Unofficially the campaign of unity is progressing as expected, however Karl has had to halt the campaign. The CS high command fears that a pressured assault, or another Tolkeen, could cripple the CS military."

"After the Minion War crisis ends the CS will be forced to reduce its military to a more sustainable number. The thought of retreating to only a full army of two million troops terrifies Karl Prosek who believes that such could leave the CS vulnerable and, more importantly to him, ruin his plans to eventually conquer the planet."

[boring7]

I thought it *did* say that first one.

In a larger sense, there are things happening with the CS army that are the direct result of resource shortages. The impact, however clumsy, is interesting. The use of Juicers and Cyborgs, the need for black-ops "grocery runs" and knowingly receiving help from Atlantis.

Will CS plot armor activate and cover those 'gaps' soon? Probably. But for the moment we have something interesting.

[dreicunan]

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

This analogy is terrible. There was no ritual that started the rifts, just death.

Massive deaths, when the planets/stars/whatever were aligned in a certain position that allowed the magic energy to get sucked from people's bodies into the magic lines of energy that were already there.
It wasn't (as far as we've been told) an actual deliberate ritual, but the effects were much the same as if it was a blood sacrifice.

Circular logic. Magic is bad because rifts, the rifts were magic because they were bad.

And the fundamental question is not "is magic more dangerous?" (again, it's apples-to-oranges) but "what is to be done about the danger?"

I'm not addressing the fundamental question, then.
I'm addressing the question of whether or not magic is insanely dangerous in the Palladium settings, and it is.

Fair enough, you're still saying "Apples are Objectively Worse Than Oranges" while constantly failing to define (or changing the definition) of the scale you're using to measure better/worse.

You seem to believe that the topic is whether magic is "bad." The topic in question is whether magic is "dangerous."

[boring7]

You seem to believe that the topic is whether magic is "bad." The topic in question is whether magic is "dangerous."

"Bad" was the word I was using for "more dangerous."

It's even explicit in the Book of Magic (page 15-17), technology and magic are not more powerful or more dangerous, just different, and magic is a natural force in the world, and places like the coalition, trying to get rid of magic, are "unwilling to accept that the old world is gone."

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, a nuclear detonation killed a bunch of people, sending those people's natural magic energy into the lines of magic energy that are hanging out all over the globe.
But that's kind of like blaming stone knives for the effects of a spell powered by ritually sacrificing somebody.
It's not the thing that did the killing that causes the effects--it's the magic.

This analogy is terrible. There was no ritual that started the rifts, just death.

Massive deaths, when the planets/stars/whatever were aligned in a certain position that allowed the magic energy to get sucked from people's bodies into the magic lines of energy that were already there.
It wasn't (as far as we've been told) an actual deliberate ritual, but the effects were much the same as if it was a blood sacrifice.

Circular logic. Magic is bad because rifts, the rifts were magic because they were bad.

Do you seriously need a source that the Rifts are magic...?

The main danger isn't necessarily in any one threat, but in the ability to bring untold threats to this world.

Not really. The whole reason The Mechanoids are such a threat is their overwhelming power and viral nature. One which is largely thanks to their technological nature.

If you want to pick knits, it's also largely due to their psionic nature.
But almost as big of a threat to Rifts Earth is The Vampire Kingdoms, or the Xiticix, or Nxla, or The Four Horsemen.
If Atlantis was more interested in eating worlds, then they'd be the biggest threat.
The Mechanoids are only one example (albeit arguably the most dangerous) of a world-wide or galaxy-wide threat that could be brought into play by a single mage who isn't even TRYING to cause problems.

And the fundamental question is not "is magic more dangerous?" (again, it's apples-to-oranges) but "what is to be done about the danger?"

I'm not addressing the fundamental question, then.
I'm addressing the question of whether or not magic is insanely dangerous in the Palladium settings, and it is.

Fair enough, you're still saying "Apples are Objectively Worse Than Oranges" while constantly failing to define (or changing the definition) of the scale you're using to measure better/worse.

How about "capable of bringing in inter-dimensional terrors to plague the planet"...?
Does that work?
And why complain that I haven't defined something that you haven't asked for a definition/standard of...?

The separation is whether of not it detects as Magic.

There's nothing to indicate death release pings on detect magic unless funneled into a magic spell.

Look, before you try to argue, read the books.
(RUE 113) the ability of Ley Line Walkers to Sense Ley Line and Magic Energy, including the ability to see Magic Energy:
The mages sees magic energy/PPE radiating from people, creatures, objects, and areas, as a faint aura whenever more than 20 PPE are present.

LLWs can see magic energy (aka PPE) in any amounts more than 20 PPE.
But even if mages can't see it, PPE is still magic energy.
RUE 185
Like magnetism or radio waves, the forces of magic are usually invisible, however, the amount of energy coursing through the ley lines since the Great Cataclysm makes them visible to the human eye. even three hundred years later, the ley lines surge with unparalleled levels of mystic power. That's why you can see them radiating light blue energy at night (the color of magic) and even see them faintly from a distance during the day. Paraphsychologists of the 20th Century called this energy Potential Psychic Energy because it is also responsible, they believe for psychic phenomena and the exceptional talents that manifest in some people.

PPE is magic
Ley Lines are magic.
This isn't even Rifts 101; this is Rifts 098.

[boring7]

Do you seriously need a source that the Rifts are magic...?

I need a source saying natural death release is unnatural magic and equivalent to a magic ritual. Thus making your analogy NOT The Worst Evar.

Or you can just continue to be abusive. Your call.

If you want to pick knits, it's also largely due to their psionic nature.
But almost as big of a threat to Rifts Earth is The Vampire Kingdoms, or the Xiticix, or Nxla, or The Four Horsemen.
If Atlantis was more interested in eating worlds, then they'd be the biggest threat.

None of which were brought in by a single mage. Almost as if you're rapidly shifting your standards back and forth as needed for confirmation bias.

The Mechanoids are only one example (albeit arguably the most dangerous) of a world-wide or galaxy-wide threat that could be brought into play by a single mage who isn't even TRYING to cause problems.

How about "capable of bringing in inter-dimensional terrors to plague the planet"...?
Does that work?
And why complain that I haven't defined something that you haven't asked for a definition/standard of...?

Because we did?

Look, before you try to argue, read the books.
(RUE 113) the ability of Ley Line Walkers to Sense Ley Line and Magic Energy, including the ability to see Magic Energy:
The mages sees magic energy/PPE radiating from people, creatures, objects, and areas, as a faint aura whenever more than 20 PPE are present.

LLWs can see magic energy (aka PPE) in any amounts more than 20 PPE.
But even if mages can't see it, PPE is still magic energy.
RUE 185
Like magnetism or radio waves, the forces of magic are usually invisible, however, the amount of energy coursing through the ley lines since the Great Cataclysm makes them visible to the human eye. even three hundred years later, the ley lines surge with unparalleled levels of mystic power. That's why you can see them radiating light blue energy at night (the color of magic) and even see them faintly from a distance during the day. Paraphsychologists of the 20th Century called this energy Potential Psychic Energy because it is also responsible, they believe for psychic phenomena and the exceptional talents that manifest in some people.

PPE is magic
Ley Lines are magic.
This isn't even Rifts 101; this is Rifts 098.

Hey, there's that abuse again.

So nearly any child is magic and therefore dangerous. That's...great. Good on ya.

Moving on now...

[Axelmania]

The Vampire Kingdoms, or the Xiticix, or Nxla, or The Four Horsemen.
If Atlantis was more interested in eating worlds, then they'd be the biggest threat.

None of which were brought in by a single mage.

We might blame the Xiticix on a random rift, but the Four Housement explicitly were summoned to Earth by a mage, the Chaing-Ku dragon Pharaoh Rama-Set, a necromancer.

As for the Vampire Kingdoms, I'm pretty sure that vampire intelligences need to have a shifter or summoner create a gateway for their essence to cross dimensions so they can begin creating master vampires.

Atlantis, meaning the Splugorth, definitely came here because of mages. Splynncryth's High Lords are all mages.