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Can you believe I actually thought the underlying SNPS damage + Weapon Damage was a stupid rule when I first ran across it?

At least, until RUE added the two additional attacks that enabled a single player to take down a Baal-Rog?

Yeah...Baal-Rog might have 600+ MDC, but his SN PS is only about 35, so that is 4D6 MD for a punch or 4D6 MD for a Fire Whip...6 attacks...

It was annoying to a level 7 Mystic Knight with a Deathbringer or Battlefury Blade take out a Baal-Rog single handedly.

The only remedy, in my mind, was to give the Baal-Rog a massive sword or spear with 2D6 or 3D6 damage that could enable some level of parity with the Mystic Knight...

That's why it is surprising that the rule would be clarified at the same time/after the two additional attacks were given to players...


Pre-RUE, I would have a 600 MDC Monster that could do 4D6 or even 6D6 damage with a melee attack and it had 6 attacks...vs. a player with 5 attacks and a flaming sword or psi-sword or Vibroblade...

Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course) facing off against a PC with 7 or 8 attacks and a sword that did 6D6 or 1D4x10 or 1D6x10 MD....

Even the light sword was massive damage compared to the monster...

Then put that with 3 or 4 PCs...now you need an army of monsters just to make them flinch...



My solution now is that there is some game reason why they can't use their high powered weapons. Maybe they have an SDC rifle with a couple of magazines of Ramjet ammo or they have an old-style C12...

Maybe it is because they have to be non-identifiable as coalition/mercenary/magic users...maybe it is because their vehicle got blown up while they were camped out and now they just have what they can salvage from the burning wreckage...

But at least every challenge isn't solved with one or two blasts from a TW Force Cannon or C-29, 12 lb plasma cannon.

Of course, with the Minion War, the pendulum swings again (at least for SN Creatures updated in the new sourcematerial)...

Now they get additional attacks...

While Lord Zevron, Zeshron? Has his same, limited number over there in the Gargoyle Kingdom...

As do all those demons on Wormwood.

shadrak wrote:Can you believe I actually thought the underlying SNPS damage + Weapon Damage was a stupid rule when I first ran across it?

It IS.

At least, until RUE added the two additional attacks that enabled a single player to take down a Baal-Rog?

Yeah...Baal-Rog might have 600+ MDC, but his SN PS is only about 35, so that is 4D6 MD for a punch or 4D6 MD for a Fire Whip...6 attacks...

Not sure what you're talking about here.

It was annoying to a level 7 Mystic Knight with a Deathbringer or Battlefury Blade take out a Baal-Rog single handedly.

Those weapons are poorly thought-out, and particularly irritating.
It's not just that TW Weapons have surpassed Rune Weapons in power--even though Rune Weapons are supposed to be so rare and powerful that kingdoms have fallen just to obtain them.
It's that TW surpassed Rune Magic without any kind of fanfare or even footnote of interest.

Pre-RUE, I would have a 600 MDC Monster that could do 4D6 or even 6D6 damage with a melee attack and it had 6 attacks...vs. a player with 5 attacks and a flaming sword or psi-sword or Vibroblade...

Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course) facing off against a PC with 7 or 8 attacks and a sword that did 6D6 or 1D4x10 or 1D6x10 MD....

Even the light sword was massive damage compared to the monster...

Then put that with 3 or 4 PCs...now you need an army of monsters just to make them flinch...

Most of that is just power creep.
Take away the fancy weapons, stick the PCs with vibro-blades, and the monster's still pretty tough.

My solution now is that there is some game reason why they can't use their high powered weapons. Maybe they have an SDC rifle with a couple of magazines of Ramjet ammo or they have an old-style C12...

You're the GM.
Don't let them have over-powered weapons in the first place.

shadrak wrote:Side question:

What in what Rifter does the first officially marked article appear as "official"?

When does the first "official" article get published?

Not that it matters...when an employee is speaking for a company, or when it can reasonably be believe that they are speaking for a company, it does not have to be designated as official.

That's kind of tricky to answer. First one would need a solid, no BS answer from the company on whether or not the Q&A sections are official. Personally I think they are due to the fact that they're questions on how the specific parts of the game's meant to be played/ruled. But if they're not then you'd have to look at the stuff that Palladium had intended to put into a book but ran out of room in said book, and if Palladium said it was official material or not. The Russian gods are the first to come to my mind. They were meant for Mystic Russia, but left out due to space. I know they're in one of the early books, but I currently don't feel like going through them to find them and their official status or not at the moment. Then there's stuff that PB put into a Rifter because it was accidently left out of the book that was released (xp tables for example). Again, for both of these examples I would consider them official, but I'm not sure if in all the cases PB said so. Finally there's also stuff that was purely fan-made, but were either blessed as official when they were placed into a Rifter (the Timiro stuff in Rifter 63 for example) or they were later put into an official book (Rifter 1 and Powers Unlimited for example).

Killer Cyborg wrote:

At least, until RUE added the two additional attacks that enabled a single player to take down a Baal-Rog?

Yeah...Baal-Rog might have 600+ MDC, but his SN PS is only about 35, so that is 4D6 MD for a punch or 4D6 MD for a Fire Whip...6 attacks...

Not sure what you're talking about here.

Baal-Rogs will, on average, do 4D6 MD with a punch. The Fire Whip they love is 4D6 as well. If they use a claw attack, you might be able to boost damage up to 6D6 MD. Baal-Rogs are one example of a great monster brought low by the rules.

killer cyborg wrote:

Pre-RUE, I would have a 600 MDC Monster that could do 4D6 or even 6D6 damage with a melee attack and it had 6 attacks...vs. a player with 5 attacks and a flaming sword or psi-sword or Vibroblade...

Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course) facing off against a PC with 7 or 8 attacks and a sword that did 6D6 or 1D4x10 or 1D6x10 MD....

Even the light sword was massive damage compared to the monster...

Then put that with 3 or 4 PCs...now you need an army of monsters just to make them flinch...

Most of that is just power creep.
Take away the fancy weapons, stick the PCs with vibro-blades, and the monster's still pretty tough.

That is what I have been doing now...and a lot more challenges where the solution is using their other skills not just the physical skills, combat skills, and WPs. It has also made it easier to justify awarding XP.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

My solution now is that there is some game reason why they can't use their high powered weapons. Maybe they have an SDC rifle with a couple of magazines of Ramjet ammo or they have an old-style C12...

You're the GM.
Don't let them have over-powered weapons in the first place.

Well, given that they can often loot a corpse and they will trudge along with as much as they can carry even if it is not useful so they can sell it, it can be challenging...

Rule 1: No bags with pocket dimensions
Rule 2: Not everyone wants to buy your crappy NG Laser Rifle at even 10% of its resale value
Rule 3: You shot and broke that guy's fancy Naruni weapon...it was pretty damaged to begin with...you made it worse and now it is only good for parts...you can salvage some ammo if you want, though.
Rule 4: All of the cannon fodder carry bows with explosive warheads, SDC rifles with explosive bullets, makeshift MDC leather armor, and they use cover and concealment as well as landmines and poison...heck, even a well placed, SDC molotov cocktail on a player wearing his awesome TW, non-environmental armor can do some damage--and resale value on a molotov cocktail is crap.

Not a lot of resale value on that stuff.

Don't get me wrong...they still get some pretty powerful stuff, but it is limited use. Current group is a Coalition SF group operating outside of Coalition territory...they get no Coalition Stuff and their budget for non-CS gear is low...and their ability to buy non-CS stuff in El Dorado or Lone Star is pretty limited (the Black Market doesn't always wanna sell to a Coalition supply officer...).

I'm not sure how it will run if we get further away from the Coalition States...but just keeping a lot of that TW stuff out the game (while enabling an NPC to use some of it) is a pretty big help...

No more of those Lazlo teams with a Cyberknight, Battle Magus, and Mystic Knight traipsing around the globe, taking down a Metzla whenever they feel like it.

shadrak wrote:Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course)

Well, sort of, barring any shadow updates. Like how the Hawrk-ka from Atlantis can have either 5 or 7 attacks to start depending on which edition you have.

13eowulf wrote:

shadrak wrote:Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course)

Well, sort of, barring any shadow updates. Like how the Hawrk-ka from Atlantis can have either 5 or 7 attacks to start depending on which edition you have.

I hadn't noticed that change...

Is it between editions of WB 2 or is it between WB 2 and WB 21/ SotA?

shadrak wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

shadrak wrote:Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course)

Well, sort of, barring any shadow updates. Like how the Hawrk-ka from Atlantis can have either 5 or 7 attacks to start depending on which edition you have.

I hadn't noticed that change...

Is it between editions of WB 2 or is it between WB 2 and WB 21/ SotA?

It is between different printings of WB 02, though I cannot say which printing the changes first appeared in. There is no announcement of such changes. That is why we call them shadow updates

13eowulf wrote:

shadrak wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

shadrak wrote:Post-RUE, same monster and stats (number of attacks locked in, of course)

Well, sort of, barring any shadow updates. Like how the Hawrk-ka from Atlantis can have either 5 or 7 attacks to start depending on which edition you have.

I hadn't noticed that change...

Is it between editions of WB 2 or is it between WB 2 and WB 21/ SotA?

It is between different printings of WB 02, though I cannot say which printing the changes first appeared in. There is no announcement of such changes. That is why we call them shadow updates

That at least sets a precedent, where we can look at it and say, "Obviously Palladium agrees that those monsters SHOULD be updated," and we can just houserule the changes for the rest of the beasties that got fouled over.
It also establishes Atlantis as a book where the TAFL had apparently NOT been included at the time of the original printing, which is useful.

Of course, if Vampires weren't given boosted attacks in WB1r, then that sets a precedent the other way.

The Beast wrote:

shadrak wrote:Side question:

What in what Rifter does the first officially marked article appear as "official"?

When does the first "official" article get published?

Not that it matters...when an employee is speaking for a company, or when it can reasonably be believe that they are speaking for a company, it does not have to be designated as official.

That's kind of tricky to answer. First one would need a solid, no BS answer from the company on whether or not the Q&A sections are official. Personally I think they are due to the fact that they're questions on how the specific parts of the game's meant to be played/ruled. But if they're not then you'd have to look at the stuff that Palladium had intended to put into a book but ran out of room in said book, and if Palladium said it was official material or not. The Russian gods are the first to come to my mind. They were meant for Mystic Russia, but left out due to space. I know they're in one of the early books, but I currently don't feel like going through them to find them and their official status or not at the moment. Then there's stuff that PB put into a Rifter because it was accidently left out of the book that was released (xp tables for example). Again, for both of these examples I would consider them official, but I'm not sure if in all the cases PB said so. Finally there's also stuff that was purely fan-made, but were either blessed as official when they were placed into a Rifter (the Timiro stuff in Rifter 63 for example) or they were later put into an official book (Rifter 1 and Powers Unlimited for example).

The Russian Gods, Death is Not Final, and the like were labeled "official" in the articles themselves.
The powers are not a good example as the versions in the Rifter are different from the ones that were eventually included in the official books.
Some material though has been made canon retroactively. As in the material in the Rifter was not official... until it was.
The best example of this is the Lone Star comic strip. It was totally non-canon when written... but when they put it together into an actual book...