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eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

eliakon wrote:

The Beast wrote:All I know is that the more I hear about what's going to be in this book, the more it sounds like it'll be worse than Shadows of Light.

The preview so far puts it smack in the middle of my list of 'worst books published by palladium'
From least bad to worst:

Arzno (come on try to actually be consistent with published material)
Merctown (utter retcon)
Shadows of Light
Sovietski (huh??? rules)
Antarctica
Triax (Racism)
Australia (more racism)
Africa (and yet more racism)
Spirit West (major racism)
Pantheons of the Megaverse (the hypocrisy of 'lets be tactful with western religion...but make a mockery of the third largest religion on Earth)

Your racism-based objections to some of the published Rifts books are interesting.

Racism implies a belief in intrinsic superiority or inferiority based on race. In a literal sense, Rifts is a racist game; Racial Character Classes are an intrinsic part of the game, and R.C.C.'s can be specific to genetic variants of human beings. True Atlanteans are objectively superior to normal humans, as are Amazons, ogres, demigods, Naga Spawn, Psi-Stalkers, and a variety of other fictional human variants presented in canon. These portrayals generally don't offend because they are fictional races, not contemporary ones.

Is racism against real-life races a problem in Rifts? That's a complicated question, because race is often conflated with culture. Certainly, there are O.C.C.'s intended for cultures dominated by a specific race, but those O.C.C.'s remain O.C.C.'s. There's nothing stopping a black African from becoming a borg, and there's nothing stopping a white person from taking the Rain Maker O.C.C. In a strict sense, I find it difficult to find explicit or implicit racism for or against real-life races in Rifts published canon.

What I see in the books you portray as racist are supernaturally and technologically empowered stereotypes of culture and history. I can understand and respect someone finding such portrayals offensive or culturally insensitive. However, cultural insensitivity isn't necessarily racism. I fundamentally disagree with the labels you're putting on those books.

That said, I actually agree with your assessment of that content's worth, but my objections have nothing to do with racism. The Rifts setting is at its strongest when it twists the world we know in unexpected directions. Turning the U.S. into an anti-intellectual totalitarian regime while challenging the idea that such a power is intrinsically evil is a bold move that provokes a lot of thought in the reader. Conversely, the Rifts setting is weakest when it takes a cultural or historical stereotype and makes it magic/MDC; I regard such moves as creatively lazy and uninspired. Thus, I love Vampire Kingdoms, Atlantis, the NGR sections of Triax, Warlords of Russia, most of the Coalition-centric books, and Underseas. I don't care for the gypsies of Triax or most of the books on Africa, New West, Spirit West, or Japan. When I mentioned how much I didn't want to see March of the Penguins with MDC in this book, I wasn't entirely kidding.

All that said, my least favorite sourcebook is Mutants in Orbit, a book I find illogical, internally inconsistent, irrelevant to the setting, and useless for the purposes of gaming in orbit or on Earth.

The exaggerated stereotypes are racist. That is quite literally one of the definitions of racism.
Pigeonholing people as "well all Africans are primitives who prefer to live in huts and have witch doctors and need White Men <tm> to come save them in their hour of need" is pretty racist. So is the entire "noble savage" thing that they do in Spirit West where the Native American's are made to be a separate sub-species of humanity that is genetically programed to seek to work at 1800s levels of technology... Ick totally racist.

There are a lot of kinds of 'inferiority' and 'superiority' that come into play in the books. These books in particular though are bad in that they take specific negative stereotypes and say that these are not stereotypes but are, in fact the defining features of the culture or race. That is pretty blatantly racist.
If a Rifts book said that Jews were greedy money changers because they were Jews everyone would be screaming about the anti-Semitism and racism of the book. But its perfectly fine to portray the Romany people as lazy thieves.

I don't have an issue with the Coalition because it is not saying that humans are inherently nazis. Or even that American's are inherently Nazis. But that a specific group of people can become Nazis. Which is not racist in the least. That is a far cry though from saying that all Romani are thieves or all Native Americans are mystically "Noble Savages" or that all Africans are incapable of being technological with out the aid of White Men or any of the other racist crap these books are full of.

As for Mutants in Orbit... it used to be on the list, but as the list is only my top ten worst books it got bumped to make room for Antartica

From Googling "Definition of Racism" I get "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior" and "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." Merriam-Webster says nothing about culture or stereotypes. Hilariously, I also found a 2-year old article stating that dictionary definitions of "racism" are wrong in part because "dictionaries are written and edited by white men" which is, in itself, an objectively racist statement. Words matter, definitions matter, and conflating race with culture is incorrect. Many of the cultural stereotyping may be insensitive and downright offensive to certain groups, but "insensitive and offensive" and "racist" are not the same thing. Exaggerated stereotypes are only racist if they are applied to a race, not a culture.

Triax, p 179 opens the section on gypsies with "Whatever one thought of Pre-Rifts gypsies, the nomads of Rifts Earth are a completely different lot. About 50% of the gypsies are human, 40% D-Bees, and 10% supernatural monsters or aliens." I.E. they are portrayed as a culture and way of life, not as a race. You might not like the way that Gypsies are portrayed in Rifts (and I don't care for it myself for reasons I detailed above), but that portrayal is meant to reflect historical cultural stereotypes, not a modern-day perspective on the Romani as a race.

As for Africa, where do you see the "white man" as the savior? I see a native American cyber-knight, a goddess, a dragon disguised as an asian dude, a couple more dragon hatchlings with asian-sounding names, Erin Tarn, and Victor Lazlo. That's one white man in the Gathering of Heroes. Now I'm not defending Africa by a long stretch (and the section specifically on pygmies does seem to fit the definition of racism inasmuch as it has race-specific RCCs) but you seem to be describing racist portrayals that aren't there. The setting is rife with stereotypes, but the text has none of the sneering tone you seem to imply. Quite the contrary, as you can read on p109: "Theirs is a culture steeped in traditions of spiritualism, nature, magic and magic using as sophisticated, intelligent, practical and powerful as anything in the Americas or Europe -- perhaps more so." Now I have issues with Africa as a setting, and I dislike the cultural/historical stereotypes presented, but they're not racist, except for the bits on the Pygmies, and the text indicates that the RCC's are exclusive to their tribe due to racism (don't trust tall people) and xenophobia (don't trust outsiders) on the part of the Pygmies.

I don't go into Spirit West much. Please provide a reference demonstrating that Native Americans are a "subspecies" of humans and that they are "genetically programed to seek to work at 1800s levels of technology." I know there are native American groups that use and manufacture power armor, which doesn't seem to gel with your characterization of the book.

I don't take issue with your list, and you're well within your rights to take offense at the cultural stereotypes present in Rifts. Racism, though? I don't buy it. Your critique of racism in these sourcebooks depends on conflating race and culture. I don't just disagree with your unsupported "literal definition of racism," I categorically reject the thinking behind it. Race and culture are not and should not be interchangeable concepts, and to treat one's race as the determining factor for one's culture is to adopt an arguably racist perspective.

Appeals to definition are perhaps best reserved for context-independent arguments. A lexical approach often doesn't take into account either stipulative or colloquial usage, which for a concept in such flux as racism is absolutely necessary. The prejudice plus power definition, as an example, has been gaining ground over the last half century such that for many it is the predominant definition, while for others that is in no way part of their conception of the term. Insofar as race is a social construct very often overlapping with culture, to claim them entirely seperate is arguably less the pursuit of precision in language than quibbling over meaning; ain't nobody reserving a slur until after they examine haplogroups. To rely on Webster for nuance is to definitionally mistake the map for the territory.

Spirit West presents Native Americans as the main people able to become Shamans, due to an ancestral bond with the Nunnehi. While people with no Native American ancestry can, if they adopt Traditionalist beliefs and customs, have bonuses from a totem or use minor fetishes, they lack the "relatively pure spirit potential" necessary for certain O.C.C.s. There is a similar genetic component to becoming the Inuit Angakoq in Rifts Canada. Considering the complicated history behind determining membership in Native Nations, which often aren't particularly reliant upon DNA testing, the conflation of ancestry and heritage is at the least indelicate.

I think it could be useful to come up with ideas of how to better approach notions of human race within the setting, since a blanket condemnation doesn't fix anything in a vacuum. In rough order from easiest to most difficult to implement:

I'd read a short Rifter article about each human nation's generalized stance on racism. Given the real world's zeitgeist has largely bent Poe's law over its knee, nuanced approaches reliant on shades of grey can often be mistaken for tacit acceptance of regressive thought. With that in mind, there's something to be said for being explicit with authorial intent. As an example, while the people of the NGR might call all resident non-citizens "gypsies", ascribing to them all the corresponding stereotypes, it needs to be clear that this is propaganda against marginalized people who in no way are part of a fortunetelling caravan of scarf-wearing thieves. The Coalition, by contrast, are wildly xenophobic anti-intellectual fascists who maintain psychic underclasses, but while there are a great many hoops to citizenship ethnicity absolutely isn't one of them.

Australia doesn't get much attention, and probably shouldn't. An article on dreamtime magic couldn't help but be in poor taste. Consider the following:

Spirit West page 33 wrote:Thus the Indian O.C.C.s listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacifc island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

The San pejorative notwithstanding, I'm fine with the notion of Rifts cultures refusing to use high technology and compensating with magic. Rather than a series of half-researched spell/item lists that rely on stereotype, I'd prefer it remain fairly generic. Most of the spells/O.C.C.s/fetishes in Spirit West aren't especially insensitive, but some of the African casters aren't great, and there's a Rifter article about Cargo Cults that I don't think can be salvaged. Ideally I'd like to rewrite granted/instinctive/shamanic casters into a modular framework, where a Mystic's willingness to use tech is a component that might be exchanged. Other than Lore skills, divorce character effects from cultural influence. If a given table really wants their New West game to be a 1950's television approach to Cowboys&Indians, that's on them.

Make Africa interesting. There are something around 75 million humans, and a similar number of dbees. As it is they're barely described tribespeople who, if they aren't lucky enough to be part of a Millennium Tree community, are subject to constant predation by Splugorth and Phoenix slavers.

Put something in the Middle East and India. Intentionally avoiding the region for fear of causing offense is itself offensive. The religious aspects really aren't that hard to handle: don't give stats to gods of active real-world religions, and don't make sweeping generalizations based on stereotype. There's actually a decent argument for Islam being quite accepting of dbees if one looks at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir or the ayat 42:29, 16:49, and 65:12 in the Quran. One could even do something interesting with a new take on djinn, but anything other than Sinbad meets Terrorists would be a net positive.

Curbludgeon wrote:Appeals to definition are perhaps best reserved for context-independent arguments. A lexical approach often doesn't take into account either stipulative or colloquial usage, which for a concept in such flux as racism is absolutely necessary. The prejudice plus power definition, as an example, has been gaining ground over the last half century such that for many it is the predominant definition, while for others that is in no way part of their conception of the term. Insofar as race is a social construct very often overlapping with culture, to claim them entirely seperate is arguably less the pursuit of precision in language than quibbling over meaning; ain't nobody reserving a slur until after they examine haplogroups. To rely on Webster for nuance is to definitionally mistake the map for the territory.

If we go by Eliakon's definition or yours, then any attempt I make to explain or explore the nuance of portraying a cultural stereotype amounts to a defense of racism. That is intolerable. Therefore, I reject your premise that race is a social construct, and I reject Eliakon's "literal definition" that a cultural stereotype is racism. Race in the context of racism is a recognizable grouping of genetic patterns within the human species. If we can't agree on this, then we don't have the basis for a reasonable discussion on this topic.

Argh. Completely off topic. Hey mods I got the answer to my question could you please lock this topic. If you guys are that interested in a discussion on racism: intended or ignorant please go do it in sound off.

Curbludgeon wrote:Put something in the Middle East and India. Intentionally avoiding the region for fear of causing offense is itself offensive. The religious aspects really aren't that hard to handle: don't give stats to gods of active real-world religions, and don't make sweeping generalizations based on stereotype. There's actually a decent argument for Islam being quite accepting of dbees if one looks at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir or the ayat 42:29, 16:49, and 65:12 in the Quran. One could even do something interesting with a new take on djinn, but anything other than Sinbad meets Terrorists would be a net positive.

The Middle East does get a nod in Africa on what's present though its sparse and buried in text (WB4 pg131-2, maybe some other bits scattered in the book). IIRC Turkey also gets mentioned in CB1r. India might get some nod in Japan (IIRC) and/or CB1r, Pantheons (don't have the book), and maybe even China (don't have the books)

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd read a short Rifter article about each human nation's generalized stance on racism. Given the real world's zeitgeist has largely bent Poe's law over its knee, nuanced approaches reliant on shades of grey can often be mistaken for tacit acceptance of regressive thought. With that in mind, there's something to be said for being explicit with authorial intent. As an example, while the people of the NGR might call all resident non-citizens "gypsies", ascribing to them all the corresponding stereotypes, it needs to be clear that this is propaganda against marginalized people who in no way are part of a fortunetelling caravan of scarf-wearing thieves. The Coalition, by contrast, are wildly xenophobic anti-intellectual fascists who maintain psychic underclasses, but while there are a great many hoops to citizenship ethnicity absolutely isn't one of them.

Australia doesn't get much attention, and probably shouldn't. An article on dreamtime magic couldn't help but be in poor taste. Consider the following:

Spirit West page 33 wrote:Thus the Indian O.C.C.s listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacifc island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

The San pejorative notwithstanding, I'm fine with the notion of Rifts cultures refusing to use high technology and compensating with magic. Rather than a series of half-researched spell/item lists that rely on stereotype, I'd prefer it remain fairly generic. Most of the spells/O.C.C.s/fetishes in Spirit West aren't especially insensitive, but some of the African casters aren't great, and there's a Rifter article about Cargo Cults that I don't think can be salvaged. Ideally I'd like to rewrite granted/instinctive/shamanic casters into a modular framework, where a Mystic's willingness to use tech is a component that might be exchanged. Other than Lore skills, divorce character effects from cultural influence. If a given table really wants their New West game to be a 1950's television approach to Cowboys&Indians, that's on them.

Make Africa interesting. There are something around 75 million humans, and a similar number of dbees. As it is they're barely described tribespeople who, if they aren't lucky enough to be part of a Millennium Tree community, are subject to constant predation by Splugorth and Phoenix slavers.

Put something in the Middle East and India. Intentionally avoiding the region for fear of causing offense is itself offensive. The religious aspects really aren't that hard to handle: don't give stats to gods of active real-world religions, and don't make sweeping generalizations based on stereotype. There's actually a decent argument for Islam being quite accepting of dbees if one looks at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir or the ayat 42:29, 16:49, and 65:12 in the Quran. One could even do something interesting with a new take on djinn, but anything other than Sinbad meets Terrorists would be a net positive.

As much as I wish that Kevin would retcon most of the world books that take cultural/historical stereotypes and throw in magic/MDC, this isn't likely to happen. An article on in-setting racism in Rifts might be constructive, or it might be inflammatory, or both. "Racism" is a loaded term that often gets thrown around like a political hand grenade. I think the best approach is the Debee vs native question already present in canon, which can be a useful allegory for racism in real life.

Your alternate approach to shamanism in-game seems sensible to me. Having some abilities specific to a culture (optional spells and such) could allow for some local flavor, and this would be best served with a modular approach to a baseline shaman or mystic class.

I agree that Kevin should try to do something more interesting with Africa, the Middle East, and India. Africa could really use a 2nd edition that is more than some stereotypical OCCs and a description that reads like National Geographic for Kids. The Phoenix Empire is a nation of demons and monsters ruled by an insane dragon with Splugorth support; this should be far more developed than it is, and there should be conflict and resistance to that empire both within its borders and from nations outside it. Humans in Africa should be diverse in their approaches to meeting the challenges of Rifts Earth.

You're one of many people concerned about the prospect of bumping into religious sensitivities regarding the Middle East and India. I think it's possible to write great world books on both regions without touching them. A world that's gone through 300 years of a massive and ongoing catastrophe should have wildly different perspectives, priorities, and cultural values than what we have today (shoot, look at the U.S., in which half the country thought slavery was OK 160 years ago). As an example, here's a short description of how I handled the Middle East of Rifts in a fanfic I wrote 6 years ago:

The Middle East is a desert waste dotted with glass lakes from a massive nuclear exchange at the outset of the Coming of the Rifts. Descendants of the survivors live in hiding in underground complexes. Almost everyone has some degree of psionics, and they shape and use the glass from the nuclear explosions as tools to focus and enhance their psionic power. They also rely on tech to a lesser degree. People don't fight over real estate or religion anymore, and Dragonese has become the dominant language (long story).

Maybe I should re-post that story sometime.

ShadowLogan: I did a quick skim of the China and Japan books and didn't find any real mention of other countries, save a brief blurb on Korea. WB4 mainly says that there are monster kingdoms in the Arabian peninsula that are smaller than the Phoenix Empire. The only descriptions of India in Pantheons that I found is how a Alien Intelligence is using a group of Neuron Beasts that have named themselves after gods to force the building of temples to try to bring itself through, and how there are some Naga in the jungle. None of the Indian/Persian/Mesopotamian deities are mentioned as being explicitly active on Rifts Earth. I'm guessing the CB1r stuff to be scattered comments in the non-human writeups, like how Wolfen are in Italy.

Hotrod: Rather than delve into specific examples, it's probably best to just note the notion of race being a social construct isn't so much my premise as it is that of contemporary scholarship. To the extent that staunch liguistic prescriptivism is barely tenable in a programming language and an adherence to such has necessarily always followed at some remove from current usage, to demand a specific and context-independent definition for evolving terminology is, rather than a call for objectivity, subjectivity with an inaccurate time-stamp. The timeliness of a given stereotype can arguably be similarly considered. While a great many stereotypes are derived from undesirable sources, I'd suggest the usage of them need not always be fruit from a poisoned tree. Sometimes it's just hackneyed, and with the endless series of disclaimers in PB's oeuvre it's fair to say potential insensitivities aren't coming from a bad place. As far as recoining non-holistic definitions of race, I could see an informal usage of phenotype having some value. Regardless of the possibity to fix in place definitions of observably fluid concepts, there are certainly more efficient places in which to do so than an elf forum

I like the notion of psychics manipulating nuclear melt glass, serving as a sort of cross between Atlantean Stone/Crystal magic and 3G Psylite. I'd add to it the possible use of Zapper-produced fulgurite. I'm thinking of stealing an idea from the novella Rapture of the Nerds, and propose that in the 2080s bioengineered flora were developed to supplement waning Arabian oil reserves. There's potential for an interesting tension between the scholars of New Riyadh, themselves slowly being irradiated under the protective dome maintained at the summit of the Burj Zijajiun, and the Eandroth Gasoline Druids who tend their petropalm groves astride black smoke belching dinoborgs.

Curbludgeon wrote:Hotrod: Rather than delve into specific examples, it's probably best to just note the notion of race being a social construct isn't so much my premise as it is that of contemporary scholarship. To the extent that staunch liguistic prescriptivism is barely tenable in a programming language and an adherence to such has necessarily always followed at some remove from current usage, to demand a specific and context-independent definition for evolving terminology is, rather than a call for objectivity, subectivity with an inaccurate time-stamp. The timeliness of a given stereotype can arguably be similarly considered. While a great many stereotypes are derived from undesirable sources, I'd suggest the usage of them need not always be fruit from a poisoned tree. Sometimes it's just hackneyed, and with the endless series of disclaimers in PB's oeuvre it's fair to say potential insensitivities aren't coming from a bad place. As far as recoining non-holistic definitions of race, I could see an informal usage of phenotype having some value. Regardless of the possibity to fix in place definitions of observably fluid concepts, there are certainly more efficient places in which to do so than an elf forum

I like the notion of psychics manipulating nuclear melt glass, serving as a sort of cross between Atlantean Stone/Crystal magic and 3G Psylite. I'd add to it the possible use of Zapper-produced fulgurite. I'm thinking of stealing an idea from the novella Rapture of the Nerds, and propose that in the 2080s bioengineered flora were developed to supplement waning Arabian oil reserves. There's potential for an interesting tension between the scholars of New Riyadh, themselves slowly being irradiated under the protective dome maintained at the summit of the Burj Zijajiun, and the Eandroth Gasoline Druids who tend their petropalm groves astride black smoke belching dinoborgs.

Your appeal to contemporary scholarship doesn't hold up for the same reason that contemporary scholarship on the subject doesn't hold up. Expanding the definition of a loaded term like racism effectively shuts down discussion for areas included in the new definition. Scholarship is highly suspect at best when it implicitly smears and silences its critics. Consider what happened when a faculty member questioned a blanket condemnation of wearing costumes based on other cultures for Halloween at Yale a couple of years ago. She was forced to resign, and her husband was publicly shouted down as a racist when he tried to discuss the incident with students while approving school administrators looked on. Though I don't generally fuss over word definitions, the baggage that comes with "racism" is profoundly toxic, and I feel compelled to establish a specific definition as a protective measure. I have no wish to invite unfounded accusations of racism or to feel compelled to prove that I'm not racist.

I agree that context and timing of Palladium's works matter, and I see nothing malicious toward any contemporary race or culture in the stereotypes they present. The problem with the books Eliakon mentions isn't racism, but rather insufficient creativity. Kevin sometimes speaks of the "wow" factor, and the cultural stereotypes rampant in the books Eliakon mentions (as well as Japan) universally fail to wow me.

Your own take on the Middle East sounds interesting. Harvesting oil from plants isn't new, and it's generally inefficient, but it could make for a unique setting. Eandroth are an odd species in both Palladium Fantasy and Rifts; as written, it seems like they should be dominant or rising powers in both settings, yet it's hard to find any references to them outside of Monsters and Animals or Conversion Book 1. It could be fun to see their society developed more.

Canon-wise, there are some small monster kingdoms in the middle east, and there is some mention of Mind Bleeders, but not much else. I included both in my fan fic.

To get back to the OP, though, what I'd actually like to see in Antarctica is something unique that inspires a strong visceral reaction within me. Palladium's Iceborn are a great example, and I'd honestly be happy to see them ported over into Rifts and using Antarctica as a new homeland.

1: Please Palladium..... Please please please please do NOT do any books on the Middle East.

If nothing else, the debate here on Palladium and cultural insensitivity/Racism is evidence that they should NOT NOT NOT Touch the middle east with a 40 foot pole. No matter what they do they're going to anger people. Put Religion in there and you're going to anger one of more of the major religions. Leave it 100% out (As someone suggested above) and you're going to anger them ALL. If equal space isn't given to all the religions the one given two words less will riot, but if you DO give equal space to them all half of them are going to riot because Religion X got AS MUCH space as Religion Y.

It's Radioactive. ___NO____MATTER____WHAT____THEY____DO____THEY____GET_____BURNED_____

It's just better not to touch it. (And they'd have to touch it. They can't have the Preacher in the New west books and the Russian Catholics in the Russian books and then 100% ignore religion in the middle east.))

Then you look at how Cultures/Races are presented in many Palladium books. Didn't Palladium straight up get boycotted in some of the Scandinavian countries about a decade or two ago due to how they presented some of the gods from England and Pantheons? I seem to remember that.

But going past that. Yes... looking at how many cultures/religions are presented, Palladium has shown forth an ignorance or blatant insensitivity for others that is nigh on staggering.

Someone has mentioned the Native Americans shown in Spirit west and a bit in New West.

Is the representation "Racist?" Well... as shown, that depends on how you define "Racism" . But yes, there is something wrong with picking out a "Stereotypical trait", focusing on it and defining an entire people by it. Yes, presenting the vast majority of Native Americans as stone age 'noble savages' is culturally insensitive. And BTW tossing out one group that are ultra high tech, doesn't blunt that.

Yes, using the Gypsies of Europe as the dirty lazy conniving thieves is at the very least Culturally insensitive. "Oh but most aren't REALLY Gypsies" Ehh.... You're still using the name to describe the "Stereotype" which... re-enforces the stereotype and can surely be seen as Racist. And the illustrations didn't help. You can head fake all you want but they -were- what they -were-.

Rifts Africa... I ... honestly can't understand how someone can try and defend that one with a straight face.

Now.... is Palladium throwing out "The N Word" No. (Though word is if you call some Rom "Gypsies" To their face it'll get you about the same reaction) That said some of their representations are just gasp inducing in today's climate. ((remember some were written 2 or 3 decades ago))

To act like it's not there or to wash over it as if it were not intentional is to obfuscate and defend it's presence. The insensitivity.

Now..... allllllllllllllllll that said... Science Fiction has long been known for some major things.

1) Addressing what's going on in the world, using 'races' (Alien) To represent things or groups and be able to approach it in a way that can be done with out offending everyone.

The Original Klingons were "Russians" the Romulans were patterned after a rather Draconian viewpoint of the Chinese (Though some claim an apex Roman cultural spin), Cardassians were the "Nazi's" including war crimes and human(Bajoran) Experimentation and concentration camps, the Bjorans were the Jews/Israel, (In a spiritual sense, oppressed spiritual people, put down and imprisoned by the Nazi's (Cardassians) ), while some claim that the Feringi were a "Negative representation of Jewish Stereotype". (( Not trying to start the debate. I know people can go 100 Pages on that alone)

So many MANY Episodes and even series were not 'REALLY' about the "Future" but about the present and what was going on in the world.

Entire college classes have been taught about the modern Battle Star Galactica and how it was approaching what was going on in the world at that time frame.

So.... that sort of thing happens in Sci-Fi.

But... I don't think that's what Palladium is doing. Too disconnected and Palladium has never been known to approach modern goings on in it's books as a way of social commentary.

2) There IS such a thing as an Homage.

3) Sci Fi is RIFE with something called the "Planet of Hats" Trope.
Where entire planets and even star reaching Empires is based off "One thing!"

Klingons "Violent Warrior Race Holding honor in high regard!"

Vulcans "Logical to a fault. No emotion!"

Romulans "Backstabby and cunning wannabe vulcans"

Feringi "Greedy"

The entire races of aliens are ALL defined by those characteristics, to the point if you find one NOT doing that, he's clearly an aberration or didn't grow up in that society. This ignores that even the Klingon homeworld needs garbage men and someone to put the nobs on your bloodworm storage device. That the Feringi as a people would nary have made it out of the bronze age if their people were all that way, much less into an intergalactic power with ships that rivaled even the Federation flagship.

This is seen even more when the ships would visit planets. This one is a pleasure planet. that one is a mining planet. This one is a planet of accountants. That one is a planet of Engineers. Etc.

This is taken to SOME extremes in sci fi to... the extent there's a 'Trope' discussing what it is.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... anetOfHats

in a way..... Palladium kinda sorta does this with the Races on Rifts earth. "Native Americans are all Stone age savage shamistic warriors...... except that one group that aren't so we aren't called racists"

"The gypsies are all lazy, thieving sorts in silk scarves in Europe that everyone hates...... except.... not all are human any more.. so we're not called racists"......

"The African people run around in loin cloths, practice blood magic, lets not forget the pygmys and put them living in huts....... "

(and yes. Africa (And the world) did indeed have to be saved by a white guy. Victor Lazlo. You can go "Oh well there's only the one white dude" That's like saying Dances with Wolves, the Native Americans wern't saved by the White guy... Yes there were other folks there but the leader was a white guy plucked for no reason from the past, and tossed there for no reason with no reason for heroes to be following him and what all to fight off the 4 horsemen, but there he was.))

Etc etc etc etc.

in a way, Palladium is kinda a "Planet of hats" but in another way it's latching on to ONE stereotypical aspect of a people and riding it out as if it was the defining characteristic of all those people. Which can surely be offensive. Especially depending on which one you choose to focus on.

(( I'm not touching Australia for 2 reasons. 1. Australia is really really really bad with out the racism. 2) Australia 2 was to be about the Aborigines, but (If what I've read numerous times is true) was flat out denied by Kevin for being..... Racist. What ever was turned in was so horribly racist Kevin refused to publish and the writer would not rewrite. So Aussie 2 and 3 disappeared never to be mentioned again. ))

So all that said... Yes. Much of palladium's work is at the very very least, very culturally insensitive to cultures it presents (yes even in fictional future wasteland ways) and depending on your definition of the term, much of Palladium can be seen as flat out Racist.

That's often in the eye of the beholder, but acting as if these aspects wern't there to be seen is feigning ignorance at the very least.


As a side note. the CS, it is stated has pretty much zero 'racism' or gender bias. They don't care if you're white, black, latino, man or woman. If you're HUMAN you're one of them.

Hotrod wrote:

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd read a short Rifter article about each human nation's generalized stance on racism. Given the real world's zeitgeist has largely bent Poe's law over its knee, nuanced approaches reliant on shades of grey can often be mistaken for tacit acceptance of regressive thought. With that in mind, there's something to be said for being explicit with authorial intent. As an example, while the people of the NGR might call all resident non-citizens "gypsies", ascribing to them all the corresponding stereotypes, it needs to be clear that this is propaganda against marginalized people who in no way are part of a fortunetelling caravan of scarf-wearing thieves. The Coalition, by contrast, are wildly xenophobic anti-intellectual fascists who maintain psychic underclasses, but while there are a great many hoops to citizenship ethnicity absolutely isn't one of them.

Australia doesn't get much attention, and probably shouldn't. An article on dreamtime magic couldn't help but be in poor taste. Consider the following:

Spirit West page 33 wrote:Thus the Indian O.C.C.s listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacifc island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

The San pejorative notwithstanding, I'm fine with the notion of Rifts cultures refusing to use high technology and compensating with magic. Rather than a series of half-researched spell/item lists that rely on stereotype, I'd prefer it remain fairly generic. Most of the spells/O.C.C.s/fetishes in Spirit West aren't especially insensitive, but some of the African casters aren't great, and there's a Rifter article about Cargo Cults that I don't think can be salvaged. Ideally I'd like to rewrite granted/instinctive/shamanic casters into a modular framework, where a Mystic's willingness to use tech is a component that might be exchanged. Other than Lore skills, divorce character effects from cultural influence. If a given table really wants their New West game to be a 1950's television approach to Cowboys&Indians, that's on them.

Make Africa interesting. There are something around 75 million humans, and a similar number of dbees. As it is they're barely described tribespeople who, if they aren't lucky enough to be part of a Millennium Tree community, are subject to constant predation by Splugorth and Phoenix slavers.

Put something in the Middle East and India. Intentionally avoiding the region for fear of causing offense is itself offensive. The religious aspects really aren't that hard to handle: don't give stats to gods of active real-world religions, and don't make sweeping generalizations based on stereotype. There's actually a decent argument for Islam being quite accepting of dbees if one looks at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir or the ayat 42:29, 16:49, and 65:12 in the Quran. One could even do something interesting with a new take on djinn, but anything other than Sinbad meets Terrorists would be a net positive.

As much as I wish that Kevin would retcon most of the world books that take cultural/historical stereotypes and throw in magic/MDC, this isn't likely to happen. An article on in-setting racism in Rifts might be constructive, or it might be inflammatory, or both. "Racism" is a loaded term that often gets thrown around like a political hand grenade. I think the best approach is the Debee vs native question already present in canon, which can be a useful allegory for racism in real life.

Your alternate approach to shamanism in-game seems sensible to me. Having some abilities specific to a culture (optional spells and such) could allow for some local flavor, and this would be best served with a modular approach to a baseline shaman or mystic class.

I agree that Kevin should try to do something more interesting with Africa, the Middle East, and India. Africa could really use a 2nd edition that is more than some stereotypical OCCs and a description that reads like National Geographic for Kids. The Phoenix Empire is a nation of demons and monsters ruled by an insane dragon with Splugorth support; this should be far more developed than it is, and there should be conflict and resistance to that empire both within its borders and from nations outside it. Humans in Africa should be diverse in their approaches to meeting the challenges of Rifts Earth.

You're one of many people concerned about the prospect of bumping into religious sensitivities regarding the Middle East and India. I think it's possible to write great world books on both regions without touching them. A world that's gone through 300 years of a massive and ongoing catastrophe should have wildly different perspectives, priorities, and cultural values than what we have today (shoot, look at the U.S., in which half the country thought slavery was OK 160 years ago). As an example, here's a short description of how I handled the Middle East of Rifts in a fanfic I wrote 6 years ago:

The Middle East is a desert waste dotted with glass lakes from a massive nuclear exchange at the outset of the Coming of the Rifts. Descendants of the survivors live in hiding in underground complexes. Almost everyone has some degree of psionics, and they shape and use the glass from the nuclear explosions as tools to focus and enhance their psionic power. They also rely on tech to a lesser degree. People don't fight over real estate or religion anymore, and Dragonese has become the dominant language (long story).

Maybe I should re-post that story sometime.

Personally, I like a book that gives a broad view because then the GM and players can fill out the rest. Rifts Africa did that ok.
Which is why I like the Xiticix book (open-ended campaign, the actions of players and whomever they work with matter) as opposed to the Tolkeen War (well, you CAN fight the CS, but... no way to win, really, and we destroy the city in the book we finally describe it... not to mention, we'll hand-wave Holmes and crew to survive not only the Xiticix but also weeks going into months in the field with no resupply).
I don't mind the Antarctic book coming out, but it seems like a back-burner project which has been overpopulated for no reason.

Hotrod wrote:

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd read a short Rifter article about each human nation's generalized stance on racism. Given the real world's zeitgeist has largely bent Poe's law over its knee, nuanced approaches reliant on shades of grey can often be mistaken for tacit acceptance of regressive thought. With that in mind, there's something to be said for being explicit with authorial intent. As an example, while the people of the NGR might call all resident non-citizens "gypsies", ascribing to them all the corresponding stereotypes, it needs to be clear that this is propaganda against marginalized people who in no way are part of a fortunetelling caravan of scarf-wearing thieves. The Coalition, by contrast, are wildly xenophobic anti-intellectual fascists who maintain psychic underclasses, but while there are a great many hoops to citizenship ethnicity absolutely isn't one of them.

Australia doesn't get much attention, and probably shouldn't. An article on dreamtime magic couldn't help but be in poor taste. Consider the following:

Spirit West page 33 wrote:Thus the Indian O.C.C.s listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacifc island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

The San pejorative notwithstanding, I'm fine with the notion of Rifts cultures refusing to use high technology and compensating with magic. Rather than a series of half-researched spell/item lists that rely on stereotype, I'd prefer it remain fairly generic. Most of the spells/O.C.C.s/fetishes in Spirit West aren't especially insensitive, but some of the African casters aren't great, and there's a Rifter article about Cargo Cults that I don't think can be salvaged. Ideally I'd like to rewrite granted/instinctive/shamanic casters into a modular framework, where a Mystic's willingness to use tech is a component that might be exchanged. Other than Lore skills, divorce character effects from cultural influence. If a given table really wants their New West game to be a 1950's television approach to Cowboys&Indians, that's on them.

Make Africa interesting. There are something around 75 million humans, and a similar number of dbees. As it is they're barely described tribespeople who, if they aren't lucky enough to be part of a Millennium Tree community, are subject to constant predation by Splugorth and Phoenix slavers.

Put something in the Middle East and India. Intentionally avoiding the region for fear of causing offense is itself offensive. The religious aspects really aren't that hard to handle: don't give stats to gods of active real-world religions, and don't make sweeping generalizations based on stereotype. There's actually a decent argument for Islam being quite accepting of dbees if one looks at the tafsir of Ibn Kathir or the ayat 42:29, 16:49, and 65:12 in the Quran. One could even do something interesting with a new take on djinn, but anything other than Sinbad meets Terrorists would be a net positive.

As much as I wish that Kevin would retcon most of the world books that take cultural/historical stereotypes and throw in magic/MDC, this isn't likely to happen. An article on in-setting racism in Rifts might be constructive, or it might be inflammatory, or both. "Racism" is a loaded term that often gets thrown around like a political hand grenade. I think the best approach is the Debee vs native question already present in canon, which can be a useful allegory for racism in real life.

Your alternate approach to shamanism in-game seems sensible to me. Having some abilities specific to a culture (optional spells and such) could allow for some local flavor, and this would be best served with a modular approach to a baseline shaman or mystic class.

I agree that Kevin should try to do something more interesting with Africa, the Middle East, and India. Africa could really use a 2nd edition that is more than some stereotypical OCCs and a description that reads like National Geographic for Kids. The Phoenix Empire is a nation of demons and monsters ruled by an insane dragon with Splugorth support; this should be far more developed than it is, and there should be conflict and resistance to that empire both within its borders and from nations outside it. Humans in Africa should be diverse in their approaches to meeting the challenges of Rifts Earth.

You're one of many people concerned about the prospect of bumping into religious sensitivities regarding the Middle East and India. I think it's possible to write great world books on both regions without touching them. A world that's gone through 300 years of a massive and ongoing catastrophe should have wildly different perspectives, priorities, and cultural values than what we have today (shoot, look at the U.S., in which half the country thought slavery was OK 160 years ago). As an example, here's a short description of how I handled the Middle East of Rifts in a fanfic I wrote 6 years ago:

The Middle East is a desert waste dotted with glass lakes from a massive nuclear exchange at the outset of the Coming of the Rifts. Descendants of the survivors live in hiding in underground complexes. Almost everyone has some degree of psionics, and they shape and use the glass from the nuclear explosions as tools to focus and enhance their psionic power. They also rely on tech to a lesser degree. People don't fight over real estate or religion anymore, and Dragonese has become the dominant language (long story).

Maybe I should re-post that story sometime.

Personally, I like a book that gives a broad view because then the GM and players can fill out the rest. Rifts Africa did that ok.
Which is why I like the Xiticix book (open-ended campaign, the actions of players and whomever they work with matter) as opposed to the Tolkeen War (well, you CAN fight the CS, but... no way to win, really, and we destroy the city in the book we finally describe it... not to mention, we'll hand-wave Holmes and crew to survive not only the Xiticix but also weeks going into months in the field with no resupply).
I don't mind the Antarctic book coming out, but it seems like a back-burner project which has been overpopulated for no reason.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Personally, I like a book that gives a broad view because then the GM and players can fill out the rest. Rifts Africa did that ok.
Which is why I like the Xiticix book (open-ended campaign, the actions of players and whomever they work with matter) as opposed to the Tolkeen War (well, you CAN fight the CS, but... no way to win, really, and we destroy the city in the book we finally describe it... not to mention, we'll hand-wave Holmes and crew to survive not only the Xiticix but also weeks going into months in the field with no resupply).
I don't mind the Antarctic book coming out, but it seems like a back-burner project which has been overpopulated for no reason.

I agree with the principle of broad view books with flexibility for GMs and players to fill in details. I disagree that Rifts Africa accomplished that. Africa presents a detailed description of the varied geography, but it provides only two specific cultures (Phoenix Empire and Pygmies) and throws everyone else under the umbrella of primitive tech and shamanistic magic. A better approach would be to have a range of tech, magic, psionics, Debee presence/acceptance, et cetera, much like we see in other regions of Rifts Earth (and without the cultural stereotypes that dominate the current version).

I'd also like to see more radical changes in Africa itself; as described, the geography seems too similar to what we see in real life in flora/fauna. The actual description of Africa reads like a special issue of National Geographic for Kids with a few overlaid Rifts-specific details.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:1: Please Palladium..... Please please please please do NOT do any books on the Middle East.

If nothing else, the debate here on Palladium and cultural insensitivity/Racism is evidence that they should NOT NOT NOT Touch the middle east with a 40 foot pole. No matter what they do they're going to anger people. Put Religion in there and you're going to anger one of more of the major religions. Leave it 100% out (As someone suggested above) and you're going to anger them ALL. If equal space isn't given to all the religions the one given two words less will riot, but if you DO give equal space to them all half of them are going to riot because Religion X got AS MUCH space as Religion Y.

It's Radioactive. ___NO____MATTER____WHAT____THEY____DO____THEY____GET_____BURNED_____

It's just better not to touch it. (And they'd have to touch it. They can't have the Preacher in the New west books and the Russian Catholics in the Russian books and then 100% ignore religion in the middle east.))

Then you look at how Cultures/Races are presented in many Palladium books. Didn't Palladium straight up get boycotted in some of the Scandinavian countries about a decade or two ago due to how they presented some of the gods from England and Pantheons? I seem to remember that.

But going past that. Yes... looking at how many cultures/religions are presented, Palladium has shown forth an ignorance or blatant insensitivity for others that is nigh on staggering.

Someone has mentioned the Native Americans shown in Spirit west and a bit in New West.

Is the representation "Racist?" Well... as shown, that depends on how you define "Racism" . But yes, there is something wrong with picking out a "Stereotypical trait", focusing on it and defining an entire people by it. Yes, presenting the vast majority of Native Americans as stone age 'noble savages' is culturally insensitive. And BTW tossing out one group that are ultra high tech, doesn't blunt that.

Yes, using the Gypsies of Europe as the dirty lazy conniving thieves is at the very least Culturally insensitive. "Oh but most aren't REALLY Gypsies" Ehh.... You're still using the name to describe the "Stereotype" which... re-enforces the stereotype and can surely be seen as Racist. And the illustrations didn't help. You can head fake all you want but they -were- what they -were-.

Rifts Africa... I ... honestly can't understand how someone can try and defend that one with a straight face.

Now.... is Palladium throwing out "The N Word" No. (Though word is if you call some Rom "Gypsies" To their face it'll get you about the same reaction) That said some of their representations are just gasp inducing in today's climate. ((remember some were written 2 or 3 decades ago))

To act like it's not there or to wash over it as if it were not intentional is to obfuscate and defend it's presence. The insensitivity.

Now..... allllllllllllllllll that said... Science Fiction has long been known for some major things.

1) Addressing what's going on in the world, using 'races' (Alien) To represent things or groups and be able to approach it in a way that can be done with out offending everyone.

The Original Klingons were "Russians" the Romulans were patterned after a rather Draconian viewpoint of the Chinese (Though some claim an apex Roman cultural spin), Cardassians were the "Nazi's" including war crimes and human(Bajoran) Experimentation and concentration camps, the Bjorans were the Jews/Israel, (In a spiritual sense, oppressed spiritual people, put down and imprisoned by the Nazi's (Cardassians) ), while some claim that the Feringi were a "Negative representation of Jewish Stereotype". (( Not trying to start the debate. I know people can go 100 Pages on that alone)

So many MANY Episodes and even series were not 'REALLY' about the "Future" but about the present and what was going on in the world.

Entire college classes have been taught about the modern Battle Star Galactica and how it was approaching what was going on in the world at that time frame.

So.... that sort of thing happens in Sci-Fi.

But... I don't think that's what Palladium is doing. Too disconnected and Palladium has never been known to approach modern goings on in it's books as a way of social commentary.

2) There IS such a thing as an Homage.

3) Sci Fi is RIFE with something called the "Planet of Hats" Trope.
Where entire planets and even star reaching Empires is based off "One thing!"

Klingons "Violent Warrior Race Holding honor in high regard!"

Vulcans "Logical to a fault. No emotion!"

Romulans "Backstabby and cunning wannabe vulcans"

Feringi "Greedy"

The entire races of aliens are ALL defined by those characteristics, to the point if you find one NOT doing that, he's clearly an aberration or didn't grow up in that society. This ignores that even the Klingon homeworld needs garbage men and someone to put the nobs on your bloodworm storage device. That the Feringi as a people would nary have made it out of the bronze age if their people were all that way, much less into an intergalactic power with ships that rivaled even the Federation flagship.

This is seen even more when the ships would visit planets. This one is a pleasure planet. that one is a mining planet. This one is a planet of accountants. That one is a planet of Engineers. Etc.

This is taken to SOME extremes in sci fi to... the extent there's a 'Trope' discussing what it is.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... anetOfHats

in a way..... Palladium kinda sorta does this with the Races on Rifts earth. "Native Americans are all Stone age savage shamistic warriors...... except that one group that aren't so we aren't called racists"

"The gypsies are all lazy, thieving sorts in silk scarves in Europe that everyone hates...... except.... not all are human any more.. so we're not called racists"......

"The African people run around in loin cloths, practice blood magic, lets not forget the pygmys and put them living in huts....... "

(and yes. Africa (And the world) did indeed have to be saved by a white guy. Victor Lazlo. You can go "Oh well there's only the one white dude" That's like saying Dances with Wolves, the Native Americans wern't saved by the White guy... Yes there were other folks there but the leader was a white guy plucked for no reason from the past, and tossed there for no reason with no reason for heroes to be following him and what all to fight off the 4 horsemen, but there he was.))

Etc etc etc etc.

in a way, Palladium is kinda a "Planet of hats" but in another way it's latching on to ONE stereotypical aspect of a people and riding it out as if it was the defining characteristic of all those people. Which can surely be offensive. Especially depending on which one you choose to focus on.

(( I'm not touching Australia for 2 reasons. 1. Australia is really really really bad with out the racism. 2) Australia 2 was to be about the Aborigines, but (If what I've read numerous times is true) was flat out denied by Kevin for being..... Racist. What ever was turned in was so horribly racist Kevin refused to publish and the writer would not rewrite. So Aussie 2 and 3 disappeared never to be mentioned again. ))

So all that said... Yes. Much of palladium's work is at the very very least, very culturally insensitive to cultures it presents (yes even in fictional future wasteland ways) and depending on your definition of the term, much of Palladium can be seen as flat out Racist.

That's often in the eye of the beholder, but acting as if these aspects wern't there to be seen is feigning ignorance at the very least.


As a side note. the CS, it is stated has pretty much zero 'racism' or gender bias. They don't care if you're white, black, latino, man or woman. If you're HUMAN you're one of them.

I think the Middle East needs to be covered, with all of the ancient cities regenerating in spite of morons blowing them up.
Also, the Babylonian gods need to start a new society there.

Hotrod wrote:I agree with the principle of broad view books with flexibility for GMs and players to fill in details. I disagree that Rifts Africa accomplished that. Africa presents a detailed description of the varied geography, but it provides only two specific cultures (Phoenix Empire and Pygmies) and throws everyone else under the umbrella of primitive tech and shamanistic magic. A better approach would be to have a range of tech, magic, psionics, Debee presence/acceptance, et cetera, much like we see in other regions of Rifts Earth (and without the cultural stereotypes that dominate the current version).

I'd also like to see more radical changes in Africa itself; as described, the geography seems too similar to what we see in real life in flora/fauna. The actual description of Africa reads like a special issue of National Geographic for Kids with a few overlaid Rifts-specific details.

Rifts Africa honestly feels worse because there is a ton of stuff in african history and culture to draw on for an interesting setting. not just the ancient world stuff (which to be fair might not have been as well known prior to the internet research options) but plenty of more recent events. heck, when WB4 came out, you had civil wars, colonialism, all sorts of ethnic conflicts.. these things were in the news and in magazines and in books. and magazines like national geographic loved to do articles on the continent because of its unique cultural visuals and stories. it wouldn't have taken much to translate a lot of these into a book with lots of local nations and plenty for players to do.

eliakon wrote:My problem with the tendency to World Book the world to death is that there are quickly no frontiers.
Its getting to the point where I have to pick what canon I want to chuck out (and then figure out what all the ripple on effects of that are) if I want to do anything other than play in other peoples sand boxes and use their tightly scripted ideas. Which as a GM I loathe. I want to be able to tell my own stories not play 'mother may I' with some author and their idea of what's cool. If I wanted it all spoon fed to me I would have kept playing AD&D with its endless modules and detailed worlds that have everything set up and locked down.

I used to run my games out in the New West...
...and then New West, and Spirit West, and Arzno and Black Market nailed that down pretty hard.

Its to the point now where I have to basically make up a new Rifts Earth for my players to play in if I want there to be the slightest shred of originality or chance of surprise. There is a reason that for the last few years almost every game I have run has been set in other dimensions... at least there I dont have to deal with the entire setting mapped out to a fare the well. Where it is basically a fully functional world with not a wiff of Post Apocalypse to it at all. (seriously, air lines, international trade, mail order delivery...give me a break)

SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax.

And so on. Allows me to use Any material as i see fit or any new stuff just by adding new planets, governments. I even can use different settings pb publishes however i need them. Splicers Worlds, Machine Worlds, Nightbane worlds, planets of Supers, etc...

TechnoGothic wrote:

eliakon wrote:My problem with the tendency to World Book the world to death is that there are quickly no frontiers.
Its getting to the point where I have to pick what canon I want to chuck out (and then figure out what all the ripple on effects of that are) if I want to do anything other than play in other peoples sand boxes and use their tightly scripted ideas. Which as a GM I loathe. I want to be able to tell my own stories not play 'mother may I' with some author and their idea of what's cool. If I wanted it all spoon fed to me I would have kept playing AD&D with its endless modules and detailed worlds that have everything set up and locked down.

I used to run my games out in the New West...
...and then New West, and Spirit West, and Arzno and Black Market nailed that down pretty hard.

Its to the point now where I have to basically make up a new Rifts Earth for my players to play in if I want there to be the slightest shred of originality or chance of surprise. There is a reason that for the last few years almost every game I have run has been set in other dimensions... at least there I dont have to deal with the entire setting mapped out to a fare the well. Where it is basically a fully functional world with not a wiff of Post Apocalypse to it at all. (seriously, air lines, international trade, mail order delivery...give me a break)

SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax.

And so on. Allows me to use Any material as i see fit or any new stuff just by adding new planets, governments. I even can use different settings pb publishes however i need them. Splicers Worlds, Machine Worlds, Nightbane worlds, planets of Supers, etc...

You understand that I am going to have to shamelessly steal borrow this idea
Seriously, that is a brilliant solution and makes things so much easier.

TechnoGothic wrote:[
SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax...

Ewww...I so wanna see your Death's Head starships.....

eliakon wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:

eliakon wrote:My problem with the tendency to World Book the world to death is that there are quickly no frontiers.
Its getting to the point where I have to pick what canon I want to chuck out (and then figure out what all the ripple on effects of that are) if I want to do anything other than play in other peoples sand boxes and use their tightly scripted ideas. Which as a GM I loathe. I want to be able to tell my own stories not play 'mother may I' with some author and their idea of what's cool. If I wanted it all spoon fed to me I would have kept playing AD&D with its endless modules and detailed worlds that have everything set up and locked down.

I used to run my games out in the New West...
...and then New West, and Spirit West, and Arzno and Black Market nailed that down pretty hard.

Its to the point now where I have to basically make up a new Rifts Earth for my players to play in if I want there to be the slightest shred of originality or chance of surprise. There is a reason that for the last few years almost every game I have run has been set in other dimensions... at least there I dont have to deal with the entire setting mapped out to a fare the well. Where it is basically a fully functional world with not a wiff of Post Apocalypse to it at all. (seriously, air lines, international trade, mail order delivery...give me a break)

SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax.

And so on. Allows me to use Any material as i see fit or any new stuff just by adding new planets, governments. I even can use different settings pb publishes however i need them. Splicers Worlds, Machine Worlds, Nightbane worlds, planets of Supers, etc...

You understand that I am going to have to shamelessly steal borrow this idea
Seriously, that is a brilliant solution and makes things so much easier.

Yay planet(s) of hats

Zer0 Kay wrote::|

eliakon wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:

eliakon wrote:My problem with the tendency to World Book the world to death is that there are quickly no frontiers.
Its getting to the point where I have to pick what canon I want to chuck out (and then figure out what all the ripple on effects of that are) if I want to do anything other than play in other peoples sand boxes and use their tightly scripted ideas. Which as a GM I loathe. I want to be able to tell my own stories not play 'mother may I' with some author and their idea of what's cool. If I wanted it all spoon fed to me I would have kept playing AD&D with its endless modules and detailed worlds that have everything set up and locked down.

I used to run my games out in the New West...
...and then New West, and Spirit West, and Arzno and Black Market nailed that down pretty hard.

Its to the point now where I have to basically make up a new Rifts Earth for my players to play in if I want there to be the slightest shred of originality or chance of surprise. There is a reason that for the last few years almost every game I have run has been set in other dimensions... at least there I dont have to deal with the entire setting mapped out to a fare the well. Where it is basically a fully functional world with not a wiff of Post Apocalypse to it at all. (seriously, air lines, international trade, mail order delivery...give me a break)

SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax.

And so on. Allows me to use Any material as i see fit or any new stuff just by adding new planets, governments. I even can use different settings pb publishes however i need them. Splicers Worlds, Machine Worlds, Nightbane worlds, planets of Supers, etc...

You understand that I am going to have to shamelessly steal borrow this idea
Seriously, that is a brilliant solution and makes things so much easier.

Yay planet(s) of hats

Meh
Rifts has always been a really strong example of the "color coded for your convenience" style of writing.

The bad guys wear black, have skull fetishes, use lots of spikes and are into mustache twirling levels of evil for the sake of being evil to the point where they invariably are out to do evil for evils sake and would rather fail, spectacularly, rather than use the most outrageously over the top monomaniacal evil plans possible (or impossible!)

The good guys are always fair white Europeans (even when they are in other nations!) and/or 'Noble Savages' who are so in tune with sweetness and light that they are incapable of actually doing anything effective because they are always shocked, just shocked, to find out that people might play dirty.

The only shades of grey are the ubiquitous mercenary field which exists as a poorly veiled excuse to allow PCs to roam around shooting bad guys and looting them and avoid having to ever get in trouble for generally being murder-hobos.

So yeah, the entire system is "game of hats"

THAT said, I like the idea of turning it from an absurdly over powered and over populated "empire of evil" that squats in one small part of the continent into an actual empire of evil.
The rest of the endless add-ons, instead of straining credulity as they keep driving up the population and industrial base and the rest...
...now can be simply more systems and pocket empires to fill in the space ways.
It also means that we can dispense with the absurd idea of the game being 'post apocalypse' when the industrial base of the entire world is practically untouched ultratech (save for the enclaves of the noble savages, and the random monsters that exist solely to provide things for PCs to shoot)
Instead we can now make the monsters part of actual logical ecologies... so 'dinosaur swamp' can become a fallen colony on a world that is the local version of the Jurassic instead of trying to pretend that the material in the book makes the slightest bit of sense (there isn't enough game for the predator populations for instance, nor enough food for the size of the herbivore population. That sets aside the whole issue of the climate being wrong for the plants and animals or all the rest)

Basically, its making lemonade out of the lemons the books keep giving us

eliakon wrote:You understand that I am going to have to shamelessly steal borrow this idea
Seriously, that is a brilliant solution and makes things so much easier.

Be my guest.

taalismn wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:[
SAME HERE.
I've decided to throw Everything out now.
I use Phase World setting. The CS is an Intergalatic Pro-Human Space System Coalition. Coalition Systems. The New Galactic Republic (ngr) is another system of government of worlds. Their biggest Megacorp is Triax...

Ewww...I so wanna see your Death's Head starships.....

They got 'em
Plus my Coalition System uses Symbiotic Living Body Armor for their Special Forces. I use the AU Riathenor Symbiote Armor version btw (not parasite version). Its a special Special Force team at that. You join for Life to get the symbiote armor. The Omega-Force Teams....

This came across my wall today and touches something I'd mentioned above pertaining to the Palladium/Racism/Cultural insensitivity thing. I'd pointed out that if you call Rroma "Gypsy" That you'd very likely get the same reaction as calling a black person "The N Word"

This shows that I was not exaggerating and that "Gypsy" is a highly offensive and seriously racist word. It's connotations are racist and it's usage even today is oppressive and used to persecute a people even today.

So while Palladium may not have been -trying- to be racist. They stumbled face first into it. More over the term Gypsy and how they are portrayed in rifts, plays largely into the Sterotype. So it's not accidental either.

It's a kin to the company suddenly naming a group of African Americans "The N' Word" and depicting them as stupid, lazy people with criminal tendencies, and a propensity for violence and thuggery.


So again while it may not have been 'purposeful' racism. (If you can claim ignorance) at the very very least it's staggering cultural insensitivity.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/melissa- ... 444825798/

Pepsi Jedi wrote:This came across my wall today and touches something I'd mentioned above pertaining to the Palladium/Racism/Cultural insensitivity thing. I'd pointed out that if you call Rroma "Gypsy" That you'd very likely get the same reaction as calling a black person "The N Word"

This shows that I was not exaggerating and that "Gypsy" is a highly offensive and seriously racist word. It's connotations are racist and it's usage even today is oppressive and used to persecute a people even today.

So while Palladium may not have been -trying- to be racist. They stumbled face first into it. More over the term Gypsy and how they are portrayed in rifts, plays largely into the Sterotype. So it's not accidental either.

It's a kin to the company suddenly naming a group of African Americans "The N' Word" and depicting them as stupid, lazy people with criminal tendencies, and a propensity for violence and thuggery.


So again while it may not have been 'purposeful' racism. (If you can claim ignorance) at the very very least it's staggering cultural insensitivity.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/melissa- ... 444825798/

here are some giving context to Africa's portrayal in the books. i agree that PB wasn't trying to be racist, but because of ignorance stumbled heavily into cultural insensitivity by embracing the "noble savage" concept way too heavily, and ignoring the potential of the region for both interesting factions and exploration of themes.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... m-history/

http://theconversation.com/explainer-th ... vage-55316

https://africasacountry.com/2013/11/bef ... le-savage/

https://www.zammagazine.com/chronicle/c ... ving-child

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/ ... reducation