Chi-Town destroyed during Siege of Tolkeen?

[Ed]

"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.

Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.

Read the topic.
If you come up with anything that hasn't been dealt with there, let us know with a specific quote.

But you won't.

I read the thing when it was originally posted. Bottom line was it came back to GMs fiat. If that's the crux of your arguement, don't bother bringing it up.

It comes down to the fact that the teleportation spell bypasses physical material.

Yet it cannot, by rule, bypass physical material to place a fusion block inside someones RPA. What makes the Chi-town underbelly any different?

[Ed]

[In fact I know of only ONE book example of a "terrorist" style attack happening within the walls of Chi-Town. In the SoT books it mentions that a assassination attempt was made on Carl's life, it FAILED. Yes they were able to kidnap his wife and blow up his youngest son (yes Joe had a little brother) but notice a few things this cannon attack proved.
1. It IS possible to teleport directly in to Chi-Town.
2. There are people out there trying to do the CS damage via attacks inside their armored techno-cities.

You overgeneralize. All that even proves that it was possible the teleport into Chi-town. For all anyone knows security has been improved.

[Ed]

Ever hear of Psi-Bat? 4000+ trained psi-operatives stationed in Chi-town? Plenty of astral and anti-magic defense available on a daily basis, not to mention additional troops that could be called up in the event of need.

And still they can't seem to keep Boschala with an IQ of 1D6 from getting into the city's sewers and into the lover levels....



Daniel Stoker

Neither of which are even minimum security, low threat areas. I have a hard time stopping ants from getting into my kitchen, based on that fact, it cannot be concluded the locks on my front door won't work, or that the Hells Angels could just wander through my living room.

[Toc Rat]

lets see no terrorists attacks on the coalition .
Jojo sr die in a attack on the way to lone star.
Lady Prosek was kidnapped by FOM forces.
one of the prosek's sons was killed in the same attack.
a Blight has started in CS state of Missouri.
El Dorado is under constant raids from Pecos Raiders and is going to get hit hard by FOM.

yup nothing bad even happens to the coalition, they are protected but KS himself, you know same could be said about the new navy, NGR, FQ, the entire munchkin land know as rifts south america, rifts japanor or omg the mightly Larsen's Bridage

Listing one example as two doesn't count for multiple.
I already listed the failed assassination attempt on Carl that resulted in his youngest son death and his wife kidnapped.
Attacks on convoys don't count, only attacks within a CS city.
Ineffectual raids from bandits also do not count, furthermore El-Dorado is barely a CS city.

The blight you mentioned though...that is close to what we are talking about. While not a attack via teleportation in a fortified CS city, it does mean something has happened to the CS. However if it is only a few crops being killed, again they are being cuddled by the writters. If we were to read in the next supplement that the entire CS agriculture industry had been wiped out...Then that would be something.

Keep trying though, I'm still waiting for those book and page number "numerous" examples of attacks happening inside a CS fortified city, perferably Chi-Town.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets see no terrorists attacks on the coalition .
Jojo sr die in a attack on the way to lone star.
Lady Prosek was kidnapped by FOM forces.
one of the prosek's sons was killed in the same attack.
a Blight has started in CS state of Missouri.
El Dorado is under constant raids from Pecos Raiders and is going to get hit hard by FOM.

yup nothing bad even happens to the coalition, they are protected but KS himself, you know same could be said about the new navy, NGR, FQ, the entire munchkin land know as rifts south america, rifts japanor or omg the mightly Larsen's Bridage

Listing one example as two doesn't count for multiple.
I already listed the failed assassination attempt on Carl that resulted in his youngest son death and his wife kidnapped.
Attacks on convoys don't count, only attacks within a CS city.
Ineffectual raids from bandits also do not count, furthermore El-Dorado is barely a CS city.

The blight you mentioned though...that is close to what we are talking about. While not a attack via teleportation in a fortified CS city, it does mean something has happened to the CS. However if it is only a few crops being killed, again they are being cuddled by the writters. If we were to read in the next supplement that the entire CS agriculture industry had been wiped out...Then that would be something.

Keep trying though, I'm still waiting for those book and page number "numerous" examples of attacks happening inside a CS fortified city, perferably Chi-Town.

just like a DAT to nit pick things,

lets just say "down in the valley"
the Coalition has a number of nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifiers at there disposal as along with groups like the vanguard watching out for any signs of trouble, I'm not saying the Coalition will never get hit by a terrorist attack again. but who knows chi-town could be covered in anti-magic protection circles.

[Toc Rat]

just like a DAT to nit pick things,

lets just say "down in the valley"
the Coalition has a number of nega-Psychic and Psi-Nullifiers at there disposal as along with groups like the vanguard watching out for any signs of trouble, I'm not saying the Coalition will never get hit by a terrorist attack again. but who knows chi-town could be covered in anti-magic protection circles.[/quote]

Hey now! Just cuz I work with a bunch of DATs doesn't mean I'm a DAT!

I have put thought in to old circles of protection that might be left over in Chi-Town but came two conclusions on why that can not be.
1. Any such active defense would by nature radiate magic detectable by the afore menionted Psi-Stalkers, Dogboys and Psi-Net operatives. Once detected they would of course be eliminated.
2. Since it was the Chi-Town magic division and not the CS magic division, only Chi-Town would have had such defenses if at all.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ed, Ed, Ed... First yes it does depend on a person getting into the city but once in an ER bomb can penetrate physical barriers with it's radiation.

If I remember my ERW training, one the the best defenses is two feet of dirt. MDC materials are high strength ceramics. Ceramics are your basic dirt, mixed with some trace elements and baked at high temperatures. Why do you assume an ERW would do anything but make a loud noise?

Second, were the heck to you get this Edict of Planetary Distress thing? If you look at the best oracle printed in Rifts so far it would be the one in Rifts Underseas about the Lord of the Deep. Just try and tell me that, that is specific. A psionicist doesn't get to pick his vision and they don't happen continuously. Even if they do have ones that seem simular they may be refering to different events in the same place adding to the conglomerate visions inacuracy.

Rifts: Mechanoids. Everybody's favorite supernatural predator, Plato, issued it in PA 101.

Yeah it would... however alter aura cast on it would allow it to mimic a low PPE emination which wouldn't worry the dog boys because as every psi-stalker knows EVERY ONE has PPE! So a low level of PPE emination from a magic item would pique a dog boy or a psy-stalkers interest. If you don't agree with the alter aura I'm sure there is a spell that does do it.

Where, and why would the spell itself not alert security.

Yeah and if you beleive that two feet of dirt is good enough to protect you from ER than you really are a military man... it take more than 3 feet of cement to block just alpha particles. Why the heck would and ER make noise? It's Enhanced Radiation and they don't even have to be explosive

Plato... Ah yes and it was so detailed... oh wait no it wasn't. They weren't even sure after the mechanoids and the apacolypse demons passes which one the devourer meant.

Alter aura allow the mage to alter the level of PPE that is sensed on them on an item it should do the same there for instead of the wearer registering as a mage (medium or high level of PPE) they'd register as a normal human (low level of PPE). THAT IS HOW.

[Zer0 Kay]

"Zer0 Kay Bold Mine why don't you look at the thread on that oh wait let me dredge through the freaking site for you... oh found it viewtopic.php?t=24975&highlight= Environmental sealing has NOTHING to do with it.

Page 21 BoM. Deal with it.

Read the topic.
If you come up with anything that hasn't been dealt with there, let us know with a specific quote.

But you won't.

I read the thing when it was originally posted. Bottom line was it came back to GMs fiat. If that's the crux of your arguement, don't bother bringing it up.

Again quote me what is on that page.

[Zer0 Kay]

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:

Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.

That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?

Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?

Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)

Yeah it's there standard dog back not the nutset so they wouldn't be able to probe someones mind. BTW what is your point about 1-3 high sec and level 4?

The nutset is a elite SWAT type unit, so I wouldn't expect them to be guarding doors and entries unless the threat level went up.
Not sure what you mean by not able to probe someone's mind. Are you suggesting that a Dog Boy assigned to the NTSET loses some psi-powers, or that a Psi-Net unit would not be at the gate.
As for what levels 1-3 have to do with getting to level 4, it seems that one has to enter at the bottom and then work their way up.

Could have sworn that NutSET was slang for PSI-Net... and that the Psi-Net hounds had additional powers. Either way I don't recall the hounds having mind probing capabilities.

[Zer0 Kay]

Ya know, if you really want to take out Chi-Town, you get someone who knows about Robotech, Telemechanically Possess the SDF-1, or 3, or even just a Synchro Cannon, and then Rift it back to Earth, preferably in high orbit, and bombard the place into oblivion.

Again, this is monstrous, and only the most Diabolic Characters would condone the slaughter of so many millions of innocent people.

and how would the TM gifted person survive being rifted back into space in a Synchro Cannon? I mean since they are a terrestrial unit that is.

[Zer0 Kay]

If I remember my ERW training, one the the best defenses is two feet of dirt. MDC materials are high strength ceramics. Ceramics are your basic dirt, mixed with some trace elements and baked at high temperatures. Why do you assume an ERW would do anything but make a loud noise?

Two feet of dirt? Seriously? At what range were they talking about? Neutron bombs do have a fairly limited kill-range, no more than about 700-1000m in terms of prompt neutron-radiation kill, but it's designed to penetrate the DU armor of modern battle tanks, IIRC. Sounds like you might have more 'official' knowledge of these devices than I do.

For the passes, anyone entering the city is photographed, fingerprinted and I'm pretty sure the CS would have a pretty good system to scan incoming packages, in addition to the Dog Packs sniffing everything over.
Btw how do you think one get's a courier pass in the first place?

Well, the courier package would be something innocuous, because it's completely irrelevant to the mission, except as an excuse to be travelling there. I assume the spy would get the ID on the black market, or even get it through official channels, perhaps getting themself hired onto a courier company for the purposes of the mission.

I think he must have been trained by the army during the initial testing of nukes in white sands. I'm guessing he was/is Army. The second least informed on Nuclear Weapons. The first being Marines. The point is they want them to continue fighting thinking they will be fine. USAF gets briefed on it because well we launch the damn things same with the Navy. Though they have more training since they also have to deal with their engines granted the emissions are no where near comparible.

[Zer0 Kay]

First i wouldn't' use just one attack. i would use enities to distract everybody wile several natural teleporters pop in different areas with antimatter TW bombs. mass damage but spreading smaller devices over larger area.

Gee, I'm totally stunned that Tolkeen didn't use your house-ruled TW devices in a devastating attack on the CS...

:nh: sarcasm... is that part of the hammer of KC? Ok never mind A-M bombs how about a plethora (do you know what that means? I hate it when people use a word and don't know what it means--El Guapo. Sorry just had to.) of TW Sphere of Annihilation Bombs.

[Zer0 Kay]

I would call it a "need" to defend my homeland but then again maybe that's just me. I joined the service after all so perhaps I am biased in my estimation of "need".

You join to defend the homeland and end up putting ciggarett lighters in tanks.

Could have been worse, you could have been stuck inside a tank with a smoker and you not be a smoker.

Oh our Col. has done far dumber things...He recently put out that we are to salute him... in the FIELD?!

For the mlitary impaired let me explain something. It says right in the regulations, "No saluting in the field." Why you may ask? Simple, saluting in the field is refered to as a "sniper check". If you are the enemy sniper sitting on a hill trying to decide who's head to blow off and see a group of soldiers salute another one...hmm...he might just be an officer.

That bit of our Col.'s "quirks" aside, I have done many other things that are directly related to defending my country. I and many others have decided to server rather then run away to say canada...

I've always thought if you really didn't like someone in the field solute them. Would you be charged for murder though ???

[Ed]

Yeah and if you beleive that two feet of dirt is good enough to protect you from ER than you really are a military man... it take more than 3 feet of cement to block just alpha particles.

My service in the USMC aside, I do remember my high school physics classes, especially the ones where alpha particles were blocked by a sheet of newspaper. Alpha particles are the largest, most stable type of radioactive decay, and can only penetrate .10 inch of human tissue. Any material thickness of metal or ceramic would provide excellent protection.

Why the heck would and ER make noise? It's Enhanced Radiation and they don't even have to be explosive

You really don't know how ERW even works do you?

Alter aura allow the mage to alter the level of PPE that is sensed on them on an item it should do the same there for instead of the wearer registering as a mage (medium or high level of PPE) they'd register as a normal human (low level of PPE). THAT IS HOW.

It's possible there is a coherent premise in there somewhere, but I can't find it. Please restate, in english, using a minimal understanding of spelling and grammer.

[Ed]

Two feet of dirt? Seriously? At what range were they talking about? Neutron bombs do have a fairly limited kill-range, no more than about 700-1000m in terms of prompt neutron-radiation kill, but it's designed to penetrate the DU armor of modern battle tanks, IIRC. Sounds like you might have more 'official' knowledge of these devices than I do.

Leaving aside the fact that modern battle tanks don't use depleated uranium (DU) for their armor. Materials composed of light elements, like water or parafin, are better neutron shields than heavy, dense, materials like Chobam alloy. Concrete with internal water pipes would offer better protection and 6-inch battleship armor plate.

[Dustin Fireblade]

And trying to access even a minimum security area would almost guarante the spy being caught. Then brainwashed into giving false coordinates and released to return back to his "masters" and lure them into a trap.

I never said anything about any level of secure area. The lowest levels of Chi-Town's fortress city are described as:

Levels 22 through level four are the homes of the lower middle class and the poor. The lower one goes, the older and shabbier the city becomes. This is the home of the city rats, cyber-clinics, bargain stores, pawnshops, and the black market. The lowest levels look almost like a sewer and are as corrupt and dangerous as the Burbs.

That pretty much describes a 'non-secure area' in my books... or do you think CS officials in charge of security would allow the black market and illegal cyberdocs to operate within secured areas?

Ok, go to the next page where it says levels 1-3 are the high security government levels. How does one get from those levels to level 4?

Also might want to check out page 206 of the original RMB, under visitor papers. (Yes there really is a Dog Pack at every city gate)

Yeah it's there standard dog back not the nutset so they wouldn't be able to probe someones mind. BTW what is your point about 1-3 high sec and level 4?

The nutset is a elite SWAT type unit, so I wouldn't expect them to be guarding doors and entries unless the threat level went up.
Not sure what you mean by not able to probe someone's mind. Are you suggesting that a Dog Boy assigned to the NTSET loses some psi-powers, or that a Psi-Net unit would not be at the gate.
As for what levels 1-3 have to do with getting to level 4, it seems that one has to enter at the bottom and then work their way up.

Could have sworn that NutSET was slang for PSI-Net... and that the Psi-Net hounds had additional powers. Either way I don't recall the hounds having mind probing capabilities.

Two different things, though I'm sure they work together.
Anyway, according to my RMB, both Dog Doys and Psi-Stalkers are allowed to get additional psi-sensitive powers, ie telepathy. And the Dog Boys already have empathy.
Also Psi-Net is active with the ISS in monitoring the entry points, and Psi-Net is made up of all types of psychics. (page 194 CWC) The Psi-Net group has some different MOS's, that may have been what you thought of additional powers.

[Qev]

Leaving aside the fact that modern battle tanks don't use depleated uranium (DU) for their armor. Materials composed of light elements, like water or parafin, are better neutron shields than heavy, dense, materials like Chobam alloy. Concrete with internal water pipes would offer better protection and 6-inch battleship armor plate.

Actually, according to this page, the M1A1 main battle tank uses 'steel-encased depleted uranium armor'. I know light elements (like hydrogen) are good for blocking cosmic radiation, but that's primarily high-energy protons, so I'm not sure if neutron radiation behaves the same way; it very well might, though.

[Guest]

Ya know, if you really want to take out Chi-Town, you get someone who knows about Robotech, Telemechanically Possess the SDF-1, or 3, or even just a Synchro Cannon, and then Rift it back to Earth, preferably in high orbit, and bombard the place into oblivion.

Again, this is monstrous, and only the most Diabolic Characters would condone the slaughter of so many millions of innocent people.

and how would the TM gifted person survive being rifted back into space in a Synchro Cannon? I mean since they are a terrestrial unit that is.

Well, the "from space" would actually involve the SDF-1 or 3...

The Synchro Cannon would be a hit and run type attack thing.

[Qev]

Yeah and if you beleive that two feet of dirt is good enough to protect you from ER than you really are a military man... it take more than 3 feet of cement to block just alpha particles.

My service in the USMC aside, I do remember my high school physics classes, especially the ones where alpha particles were blocked by a sheet of newspaper. Alpha particles are the largest, most stable type of radioactive decay, and can only penetrate .10 inch of human tissue. Any material thickness of metal or ceramic would provide excellent protection.

Wow, I'm agreeing with Ed. This feels really weird.

Yeah, alpha and beta particle radiation is generally stopped by just your skin (good thing, too... CRTs emit very very low levels of beta particles, not to mention x-rays). They only really become dangerous when a person inadvertently inhales or ingests radioactive material that emits alpha or beta radiation; lung tissue is very delicate and easily penetrable, and of course, once the radioactive material gets into your bloodstream, it can do damage directly to your organs.

For those who don't know, alpha particles are just fully-ionized, high-energy helium atoms (nuclei), and beta particles are high-energy electrons.

I wonder if there are any anti-particle based particle weapons in Rifts? Or even more deadly, neutral particle beams or atom lasers?

I saw a demonstration of a neutral particle beam, once... my god that was terrifying. They were demonstrating it against the performance of a high-energy laser, by firing both at a stack of 20 quarter-inch steel plates. The laser, it did what you'd expect: it burned through the first plate, then the second, then the third, and so on. The neutral particle beam, on the other hand... it burned through all 20 plates at the same time.

Dammit, I want one of those on my Ulti-Max, screw the railgun!

[Daniel Stoker]

And still they can't seem to keep Boschala with an IQ of 1D6 from getting into the city's sewers and into the lover levels....



Daniel Stoker

Neither of which are even minimum security, low threat areas. I have a hard time stopping ants from getting into my kitchen, based on that fact, it cannot be concluded the locks on my front door won't work, or that the Hells Angels could just wander through my living room.

And strangely ants are a lot smaller then a Hells Angel while a Boschala is human sized or larger. My point being if something with an IQ of 1D6 can get into Chi-Town, something smarter like a mage isn't going to have to hard of a time. We won't even talk about how if they have Mask P.P.E.



Daniel Stoker

[Guest]

Yeah and if you beleive that two feet of dirt is good enough to protect you from ER than you really are a military man... it take more than 3 feet of cement to block just alpha particles.

My service in the USMC aside, I do remember my high school physics classes, especially the ones where alpha particles were blocked by a sheet of newspaper. Alpha particles are the largest, most stable type of radioactive decay, and can only penetrate .10 inch of human tissue. Any material thickness of metal or ceramic would provide excellent protection.

Wow, I'm agreeing with Ed. This feels really weird.

Yeah, alpha and beta particle radiation is generally stopped by just your skin (good thing, too... CRTs emit very very low levels of beta particles, not to mention x-rays). They only really become dangerous when a person inadvertently inhales or ingests radioactive material that emits alpha or beta radiation; lung tissue is very delicate and easily penetrable, and of course, once the radioactive material gets into your bloodstream, it can do damage directly to your organs.

For those who don't know, alpha particles are just fully-ionized, high-energy helium atoms (nuclei), and beta particles are high-energy electrons.

I wonder if there are any anti-particle based particle weapons in Rifts? Or even more deadly, neutral particle beams or atom lasers?

I saw a demonstration of a neutral particle beam, once... my god that was terrifying. They were demonstrating it against the performance of a high-energy laser, by firing both at a stack of 20 quarter-inch steel plates. The laser, it did what you'd expect: it burned through the first plate, then the second, then the third, and so on. The neutral particle beam, on the other hand... it burned through all 20 plates at the same time.

Dammit, I want one of those on my Ulti-Max, screw the railgun!

Wait, I've heard of Atom Lasers before (along with hypertech sci-fi Graviton Lasers) but a Neutral Particle Beam?

That ones new to me.

Where did you see this, how big was it, and how far away is it from production?

[Qev]

Wait, I've heard of Atom Lasers before (along with hypertech sci-fi Graviton Lasers) but a Neutral Particle Beam?

That ones new to me.

Where did you see this, how big was it, and how far away is it from production?

Well, it was shown on a documentary on space-based anti-ICBM techologies that were being studied; I wish I could remember what show it was on. It wasn't anywhere near being a production weapon, it was just an experimental prototype. It was a focus of study because, unlike 'normal' charged particle beams, it wouldn't be deflected by the Earth's magnetic field, so it would be more accurate at longer ranges. That, and it chewed through stuff like crazy, ehehe!

Interestingly, the reason it was so effective against layers of armor is because neutral particles don't tend to interact strongly with matter, since they don't carry an electrical charge. Thus, the majority of the beam energy passes right through the first layer without slowing down, although the fraction that does interact with it is enough to burn a hole in it. Repeat for all the layers of material... so it actually does burn through all the different layers at the same time. Creepy.

Of course... realistically, absolutely no particle beam is going to be an effective weapon inside the Earth's atmosphere... the moment you fired it, there'd probably be a massive explosion right in front of you.

My favorite sci-fi beam weapons so far are neutral particle beams, grasers (gamma-ray lasers), bomb-pumped x-ray lasers, and the (utterly theoretical) nasen beam (aka neutrino laser).

Wow, maybe I could spawn this off into a new thread!

Edit: Ooh, here is an interesting article on neutral particle beams, from FAS.

[Killer Cyborg]

First i wouldn't' use just one attack. i would use enities to distract everybody wile several natural teleporters pop in different areas with antimatter TW bombs. mass damage but spreading smaller devices over larger area.

Gee, I'm totally stunned that Tolkeen didn't use your house-ruled TW devices in a devastating attack on the CS...

:nh: sarcasm... is that part of the hammer of KC? Ok never mind A-M bombs how about a plethora (do you know what that means? I hate it when people use a word and don't know what it means--El Guapo. Sorry just had to.) of TW Sphere of Annihilation Bombs.

Too small of a radius to do much harm.

[Rimmerdal]

Maybe there is some Tech involved as well keeping a Nuke or some other destructive device from functioning properly?

Nukes don't work in nightbane (on the Night Lords side) it's magical. Maybe thats why the CS gave up on using nukes in the Rift-earth unless shieled some how.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Federation of Magic has made numerous hits on Chi-Town and the CS in the past. And I know of no place in the books saying that there are NO successful terrorist attacks on the CS.
Something the equivilant of 9/11 hasn't happend in a LONG time because the CS is more on guard than our government and they operate on a different scale of power. There aren't any weapons lying around that are as devastating to their city as a fully-fueled jet-liner or two was to New York.
Note that everybody's plans for attacking Chi-town involves using weapons that nobody really has. Home-ruled TW devices of doom, or ICMB class nukes, or whatever.
Mages probably have teleported in bombs into Chi-town in the past, but they're the same type of bombs that Rifts are restricted to; the wimply variety that the CS and every other military is pretty much restricted to.
They probably blew up some downsiders in the lower levels and didn't really do much.

Numerous hits huh? Name me, by book and page number a dozen.

Probably can't list a dozen, but there was the attack of 12 PA (CWC, p. 20) which started the war between the CS and the FoM and numerous attacks since.

"around 65 PA, acts of terrorism claimed by the Federation of Magic were leveld at Chi-Town and other CS communities." (CWC 21)

"Those loyal to Nostrous Dunscon have often stirred the pot of hatred to reap foul vengeance against Chi-Town and other enemies. So far, all such conflicts have been small and contained; nothing lasting, nothing too serious. Mostly acts of murder and terrorism against members of the Coalition States and the innocent people of the great CS cities and Burbs." (FoM 13).

"Immediatly after his [Dunscon's] return, acts of terrorism and magical guerilla warfare had been leveled at Chi-Town and CS outposts throughout the Mid-West." (FoM 29)

"He [Dunscon] has instigated numerous skirmishes and terrorist acts in CS territories..." (FoM 29).

They kidnapped Karl Prosek's wife, which led to the Campaign of Unity and the war on Tolkeen (FoM 29).

I also notice a LOT of "probably" in your reply. They (the FOM) have probably hit Chi-town with teleported bombs in the past. They have probably blown up down siders. Nothing concrete and why is that?

Because the books are extremely vague and sketchy on any details about Chi-Town.
You, for some reason, choose to assume that this means that there have never been any successful terrorist attacks on Chi-Town.
Then you project your assumption onto the gameworld and complain about how unrealistic things are.

Because there is nothing in the books to show anything like a 9/11 attack has ever happened to the great blessed by the hand of GOD city that is Chi-Town.

Unless you want to count the Federation of Magic invasion of Chi-Town in 12 PA, which permantly altered the nature of the Coalition States.
Of course, that was much worse for Chi-Town than the 9/11 attacks were for us. 50,000 - 80,000 people estimated dead (FoM 11).

In fact I know of only ONE book example of a "terrorist" style attack happening within the walls of Chi-Town. In the SoT books it mentions that a assassination attempt was made on Carl's life, it FAILED. Yes they were able to kidnap his wife and blow up his youngest son (yes Joe had a little brother) but notice a few things this cannon attack proved.
1. It IS possible to teleport directly in to Chi-Town.

Of course.

2. There are people out there trying to do the CS damage via attacks inside their armored techno-cities.

Duh.

3. Once again we see the hand of GOD blessing Carl, Joe and their neo-nazi empire.

No more than the hand of God blessed Hitler in WWII. He managed to survive a large number of assassination attacks that should have been successful. Since Prosek is heavily paralleled to Hitler, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that Prosek do the same thing.

So, if they were able to teleport inside Chi-Town once, why not more times?

There most likely HAVE been more times.

Why haven't there been constant random bombings?

Where does it say that there haven't?
Ever seen the movie Brazil? I picture certain levels of Chi-Town to be a lot like that.

What about biological warfare? They could release all kinds of nice magical or non-magical plagues in the lower levels.

Medical tech in the CS is a heck of a lot better than any of their enemies.
As for magical plagues, that would be great if there were any... but there don't seem to be any in the books that I know of.

With the total lack of sanitation we can see in the art shots of the lower side, itwould be near ideal conditions for the rapid spread of a plague. Hmm, wait that would mean letting Chi-Town and the Coalition stand on it's own two feet instead of saving time after time with illogical poor writting! Can't have that now can we?

CS medical technology is top of the line. Let some people die, give the rest IRMSS injections or whatever to kill the plague. Heck, the CS wouldn't have much problem sealing off and gassing the lower levels if things got bad enough.

In any case, you are once again basing your argument off of stuff that doesn't exist in the books. The Federation of Magic has no Bio-Weapons division working on plagues. The only place that might is Lonestar.

[Dustin Fireblade]

1. It IS possible to teleport directly in to Chi-Town.

So, if they were able to teleport inside Chi-Town once, why not more times?

Curious, which book described the terrorists method of entry?

[cornholioprime]

1. It IS possible to teleport directly in to Chi-Town.

So, if they were able to teleport inside Chi-Town once, why not more times?

Curious, which book described the terrorists method of entry?

Rifts: Federation of Magic, I believe....

[Toc Rat]

Once again you are putting word in to my mouth and chosing what you want out of my statements KC.

Let us try to stay on topic for once. That topic being attack via teleportation inside CS cities. Nearly all the "terror" attacks you mentioned were in fact deliberate offensive campaigns. Not random acts of terror. The FoM meant to conquer the CS not mearly inflict casualties. As I told someone earlyer attacks outside a CS city don't count for this.

Try again.

[Toc Rat]

Actually nevermind, scratch that. Don't try, I (and others) am not going to change our stance on this topic. I'm sure you will continue to hold on to your beliefs too. I see no further point in continuing this.

Until the next time...

[Ed]

And still they can't seem to keep Boschala with an IQ of 1D6 from getting into the city's sewers and into the lover levels....



Daniel Stoker

Neither of which are even minimum security, low threat areas. I have a hard time stopping ants from getting into my kitchen, based on that fact, it cannot be concluded the locks on my front door won't work, or that the Hells Angels could just wander through my living room.

And strangely ants are a lot smaller then a Hells Angel while a Boschala is human sized or larger. My point being if something with an IQ of 1D6 can get into Chi-Town, something smarter like a mage isn't going to have to hard of a time. We won't even talk about how if they have Mask P.P.E.



Daniel Stoker

I'm sure the sewers are chock full of disgruntled mages trying to sneak into Chi-town.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm sure the sewers are chock full of disgruntled mages trying to sneak into Chi-town.

And lower levels.



Daniel Stoker

[Dustin Fireblade]

1. It IS possible to teleport directly in to Chi-Town.

So, if they were able to teleport inside Chi-Town once, why not more times?

Curious, which book described the terrorists method of entry?

Rifts: Federation of Magic, I believe....

It doesn't describe a method of entry. IIRC there is something about being "magically whisked away" (whatever that means).
And I may be wrong but I don't think that the attack specifies Chi-Town?

[Killer Cyborg]

Once again you are putting word in to my mouth and chosing what you want out of my statements KC.

Explain where and how I misunderstood you.

Let us try to stay on topic for once. That topic being attack via teleportation inside CS cities. Nearly all the "terror" attacks you mentioned were in fact deliberate offensive campaigns. Not random acts of terror. The FoM meant to conquer the CS not mearly inflict casualties. As I told someone earlyer attacks outside a CS city don't count for this.

Try again.

Why don't they count for this?

[Killer Cyborg]

First i wouldn't' use just one attack. i would use enities to distract everybody wile several natural teleporters pop in different areas with antimatter TW bombs. mass damage but spreading smaller devices over larger area.

Gee, I'm totally stunned that Tolkeen didn't use your house-ruled TW devices in a devastating attack on the CS...

:nh: sarcasm... is that part of the hammer of KC? Ok never mind A-M bombs how about a plethora (do you know what that means? I hate it when people use a word and don't know what it means--El Guapo. Sorry just had to.) of TW Sphere of Annihilation Bombs.

Too small of a radius to do much harm.

Not if its a precision guided Annihilation Cluster Bomb.

Read the TW Creation rules in Rifts Ultimate and figure out how you'd make that.
Of course, final say on what can and cannot be created is up to the GM so it might not actually work the way you want it too...

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg

Medical tech in the CS is a heck of a lot better than any of their enemies.
As for magical plagues, that would be great if there were any... but there don't seem to be any in the books that I know of.

Isn't there a Spell of Legend or two that does that kind of thing?

Possibly... I don't remember any offhand though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg

Medical tech in the CS is a heck of a lot better than any of their enemies.
As for magical plagues, that would be great if there were any... but there don't seem to be any in the books that I know of.

Isn't there a Spell of Legend or two that does that kind of thing?

Possibly... I don't remember any offhand though.

I believe there was one called "Drought" and another or the same one, I don't remember, that kills plants for miles and miles. Also the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse comes to mind in the Africa Book. I don't have. Can you check whats there under their abilities?

Well, Drought is just lack of water... not an actual disease.

Pestilence can magically infect people with diseases, but the diseases don't seem to be magical or otherwise extraordinary in their own right.
But if you can teleport one of the 4 Horsemen into Chi-Town in the first place, spreading disease would just be the cherry on top of a slaughter sundae...

[Killer Cyborg]

As for your slaughter sundae. Are you referring to who? or both?

Both.

[cornholioprime]

Killer Cyborg

Medical tech in the CS is a heck of a lot better than any of their enemies.
As for magical plagues, that would be great if there were any... but there don't seem to be any in the books that I know of.

Isn't there a Spell of Legend or two that does that kind of thing?

Possibly... I don't remember any offhand though.

I believe there was one called "Drought" and another or the same one, I don't remember, that kills plants for miles and miles. Also the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse comes to mind in the Africa Book. I don't have. Can you check whats there under their abilities?

It's the Spell of Legend known as "Blight of Ages," but doesn't affect people, just Plants.

It is more than likely that Game Balance is the reason that Rifts Disease and Poison Spells are so limited in effect and duration....

You won't be poisoning or diseasing Chi-Town, either... unless you want to rift in a Lurgess or two and have it take off its Suit for a few minutes in one of the higher Levels....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

well blight of ages could have been used by tolkeen, even in BOM its says something about the spell being held in reverse for the CS crop fields in Missouri and Iowa

[dark brandon]

Here's a problem/thought I have....

Isn't a spell of Legend suppost to be well...a legend, as in "May exist, but possibly not"?

So, I know it says tolkeen had this spell in reserve, but was it as a scroll or did mages know this spell? If so, then shouldn't it be taken off the "Spells of legend" list and placed in say, a level 15 catagory spell?

Kinda like Anti-magic cloud was a long time ago?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

you would think so

[cornholioprime]

Here's a problem/thought I have....

Isn't a spell of Legend suppost to be well...a legend, as in "May exist, but possibly not"?

So, I know it says tolkeen had this spell in reserve, but was it as a scroll or did mages know this spell? If so, then shouldn't it be taken off the "Spells of legend" list and placed in say, a level 15 catagory spell?

Kinda like Anti-magic cloud was a long time ago?

I don't really care either way....

...but "Spell of Legend" does sound quite bit cooler than "Level 15 Spell..."

[Killer Cyborg]

quick question: Techno-wizard items are undetectable when not in use according to RMB. Wouldn't that make it insanely easy to smuggle something into Chi-Town?

I'd say that Dogboys and Psi-Stalkers could still sense any PPE in a charged TW item if they were close enough to look at it directly or inspect it.
Other than that, you seem to be correct.

RUE, p. 145
"the Psi-Hound can detecth the presence of psychic energy; specifically fellow psychics (ISP) and magic energy (PPE used in spell casting, in magic devices and the large energy reserves in practitioners and creatures of magic; 80 points or more)."

So small TW devices that are fully charged might still be able to be snuck by them.

On the other hand, it all depends on how you play CS security.
I have every entrance to Chi-Town use telepaths at the gate. In order to get inside, they ask you a series of questions like:
"Are you carrying any illegal devices?"
"Are you a practitioner of magic?"
"Are you a psychic?"

Scanning their thoughts while they answer the questions will reveal the truth.
Any mind that cannot be read will be denied entry.

[Dead Boy]

Before this thread goes where I know it will, let me be the first to refer everyone to MY sig!

Hey, I'm new here, I'm allowed to drag up old, dead, stinky, decomposing thread topics.

Er... aren't I?

Yes you are!

And as such, you dragged up one of the reasons why I argued against allowing teleport spells to bypass the rule that limits all magic. That being that magic can not penetrate an enclosed space such as a fortress city, a vehicle, or a cardboard box for that matter. If it could then there is no reason for Chi Town not to be reduced to a smoldering crater through a series of such attacks. However, try as I did, the powers that be over-ruled my argument and said that teleport spells (especially the Superior version) can indeed bypass this limitation.

So with that said, there has to be a reason why this event has not come to be. Some argue that it must be the Vanguard, possibly protecting the Coalition's fortress cities with secret circles of protection. Others postulate that the CS is protected by their patron deity, Kevin Sembedia. I personally lean towards the idea that it could be some kind of secret psi-tech (like that in Psyscape) machinery that blocks out magic of that nature allowing them to keep their cities nuke-free and their secrets away from the magic and psychic prying eyes of their enemies. But anyway you look at it, there has to be a reason, even if the writers have yet to share it with us. Because the very fact that Chi-Town still stands if proof alone that there must be something working for them behind the sceens.

[cornholioprime]

But anyway you look at it, there has to be a reason, even if the writers have yet to share it with us. Because the very fact that Chi-Town still stands if proof alone that there must be something working for them behind the sceens.

Well said.

Although I am forced to "disagree" with you on the Psi-Shields and Vanguard Magical Protections that you have come up with, even though you have clearly stated that these were but speculations on your part.

I, for one, will be rather ticked off if, when (if ever) Kevin finally DOES get around to detailing a Chi-Town Book, that suddenly the Fortress City has these Protections where it never been stated, or even inferred, before.......

***Cutscene to Kevin Siembieda; he reaches somewhere behind himself, and pulls something out of..somewhere***

Kevin S.: "yeah, the CS has...uh...Golden Age Psi-Blocker Tech..that, uh.....has an unexpected Side Effect that blocks Magic Effects from manifesting within its Walls...yeah, that's it!!"

[Killer Cyborg]

Before this thread goes where I know it will, let me be the first to refer everyone to MY sig!

Hey, I'm new here, I'm allowed to drag up old, dead, stinky, decomposing thread topics.

Er... aren't I?

Yes you are!

And as such, you dragged up one of the reasons why I argued against allowing teleport spells to bypass the rule that limits all magic. That being that magic can not penetrate an enclosed space such as a fortress city, a vehicle, or a cardboard box for that matter. If it could then there is no reason for Chi Town not to be reduced to a smoldering crater through a series of such attacks. However, try as I did, the powers that be over-ruled my argument and said that teleport spells (especially the Superior version) can indeed bypass this limitation.

So with that said, there has to be a reason why this event has not come to be. Some argue that it must be the Vanguard, possibly protecting the Coalition's fortress cities with secret circles of protection. Others postulate that the CS is protected by their patron deity, Kevin Sembedia. I personally lean towards the idea that it could be some kind of secret psi-tech (like that in Psyscape) machinery that blocks out magic of that nature allowing them to keep their cities nuke-free and their secrets away from the magic and psychic prying eyes of their enemies. But anyway you look at it, there has to be a reason, even if the writers have yet to share it with us. Because the very fact that Chi-Town still stands if proof alone that there must be something working for them behind the sceens.

-Lack of inside information to teleport the bombs to.
-Lack of effective explosives (Even long range missile don't have a great blast radius)
-Unwillingness to make the CS even MORE ticked off.
-Unwillingness to risk the teleported nuke ending up off course and destroying innocent lives
-Unwillingness to risk the nuke going off course and detonating a few feet away from the caster

Overall, teleporting explosives into Chi-Town would be a decent form of terrorism... pretty much on the same level as car bombs.
Can you name any countries that have been destroyed by car bombs?
Or even a single city that has been destroyed by car bombs?

I can think of a zillion plans that could be used to attack and destroy the CS.
I can think of a zillion plans that could be used to attack and destroy the United States.
But life just isn't as simple as you think, and plans on that scale almost never go right.

[Dead Boy]

Quote="Killer Cyborg"

-Lack of inside information to teleport the bombs to.

That's what non-psychic, non-magic, non-D-Bee scouts are for. A little photo surveylance and a good caster has all he needs to use Teleport: Superior.

-Lack of effective explosives (Even long range missile don't have a great blast radius)

A) Quantity can make up for quality.
B) There's always that TW WMD I brought up last time this came up... and now that RUE has rules to make such a thing you can't claim there's no way to make one.

-Unwillingness to make the CS even MORE ticked off.

If the blast takes out Prosek and his son, the resulting fight for the reigns of power would all but paralyze the CS. Maybe even plunge it into civil war. It's wroth the risk.

-Unwillingness to risk the teleported nuke ending up off course and destroying innocent lives

FOM terrorists don't care about innocient lives or colateral damage. So long as Coalition citizens and/or soldiers die as a result, they're happy.

-Unwillingness to risk the nuke going off course and detonating a few feet away from the caster

A few safety precautions can mitigate that danger into nothing more than a procedureial step. For instance a thrity seconed timer would do the trick just fine. No where near enough time for it to be defused on the receiving end, but more than enough for them to jam in a deactivation key should it fail to go.

[cornholioprime]

Im telling you it's cause magic users are too simple minded and one track minded...

How are they going to put together some elaborate plan to get a bomb they dont have into a highly organized bastion of human salvation like Chi-Town when they cant think past their next Blood Sacrifice or the nearest Supernatural Intelligence they can find to worship and con to give them just a sliver of it's power...

Look everyone knows that magic caused the Rifts and anyone dumb enough to delve into these dark arts is obviously going to be deranged by it's power. It's not hard to understand why these type of people cant figure out something like this... come on...

Barney

I know that you're just kidding, Barney, but THAT explanation don't wash, either.

VANGUARD Mages are allowed to be "Smart..."

Hell, it seems that Vanguard Mages have too few personnel to be detected by all UNTIL 109 P.A. (finally "discovered" by Dunscon in Rifts: Aftermath), yet have enough Operatives to know most EVERYTHING magical that threatens to harm the CS.....

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

[cornholioprime]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

That "explanation" has been used for about a zillion years now, but at some point, even that has to go out the window in the "real" world.

Plato the Dragon: Let's go kill the Xiticix!!!

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Why should we do this thing, killing other Sentient Life???

Plato: Because, left to their own devices, the Xiticix pose a Threat to all on the Continent.

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Oh. We see. So why shouldn't we formulate a long-term plan against the CS, if even a M.A.D. Scenario?? Left to their own devices, don't they ALSO pose a Threat to all on the Continent? Doesn't EVERY Argument that apply to the Xiticix, ALSO apply to the Coalition States??

Plato: Well...uh, yeah..... but..... [Insert Writer's Fiat here]