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R Ditto wrote:

Alejandro wrote:
Considering the Federation of Magic most likely has absolutely no clue what space is all about, let alone satellite usage, I doubt that ever crossed their minds. We're talking about people who regularly summon demons and open rifts. To them, going into space is below their capabilities and has probably never been even considered.

I also severely doubt anyone knew of the CS space program outside of the CS...let alone Lazlo or the Federation. So the whole "I'd like to know what's blowing up the CS attempts of space travel" thing just doesn't seem to work for me.

To back that up.
If anyone did see the launches from a distance away, they might just think of it as the CS doing tests on a new type of missile, or testing just how high their big missiles could go, or otherwise to see how their big missiles handle a strait vertical climb... because as far as anyone would know, there would be no other reason for the CS to be shooting rockets strait up.
The CS would never bother with large manned rockets or even shuttles if they couldn't even get their own version of Sputnik up there in the first place, so there would be no apparent evidence of any attempts to get into space.

Another angle.
Didn't Erin Tarn herself say that effectively nothing can get into space? If so, why would the CS even be trying in the first place?

This implies that

1) There isn't a lot stuff up there that the CS would want.
This is incorrect, there is lots of stuff up there the CS would want. And by lots, I mean LOTS. Hyperpowerful railguns, targeting systems the likes of which they've never seen, State-of-the-art pre-rifts technology. The answer to the question "Where do I find railguns that dwarf even what glitter boys mount?" is "Up there, if you can figure out a way to survive them being shot at you".

Now it would be unwise to make getting into space the #1 priority, but the idea that the CS would simply 'write off' an opportunity to get access to ultra-high powered railguns which have some sort of self-propagating mechanism that gives them longevity (that's right, whatever is up there, it's still functioning 100 years later, this means it's got either some mechanism of self-repair or is ultra-durable, both things that the CS or Triax would love to have secrets of). The very things that make space dangerous are the very things the CS or Triax would want. At the very least one could expect small CS squads being sent into the ruins of Washington DC to see if they could find some sort of access code or such in order to gain control of these satellites. Or the occasional launch of a probe and gather information. Sitting up there is a passel of 'ultimate weapons', which puts all involved in an interesting conundrum. Either try to get them, and lose resources and manpower, or don't try to get them, and risk someone else getting them first. The solution is...

Set aside some resources you could stand to lose (A small scale, small manpower group), and let them give it a shot. If they fail, you've not lost much, but if they get lucky, GREAT!

2) The Federation of Magic isn't interested in what the CS may be doing so would not be interested if they found out the CS was exploring this.

Again, the Federation is *very* interested in CS activity (For very logical reasons). Spies, scrying, mindreading, all are things The Federation is using to watch the CS closely, and space programs are not 'quiet' things. And if the CS is seeking an edge of some kind, it is very reasonable for Dunscon to either want to nullify it (by sabotaging any such attempt) or by seeking magical means to get it first. Don't assume The Federation has no clue about 'space', there are many folks in the United Worlds of Warlock who would take umbrage with the idea that mages can't use space. It's like assuming the Federation doesn't know anything about Medicine or Biology. They can know things just like everyone else, their methodology is just different. Every Shifter knows Astronomy, at +20 if I remember right, and it's being said that there would be no one in the Federation who would have ideas about satellites?

Again, it is the same conundrum for the Federation of Magic. There are ultimate weapons up there (these are the things that make it dangerous). Don't do anything spaceworthy, and risk the CS getting control of ultimate weapons, or overcommit and risk playing your hand and losing too much resources.

Same solution, set aside a small cadre of sorcerers to look into this. They can either try to sabotage the CS, or try to think of ways to win the space race themselves. If nothing comes of it, no great loss, but again, if they get lucky, excellent! At the very least, The Federation would seek some sort of defense mechanism 'just in case' the CS gets control.

3) the other angle assumes The Federation of Magic and the CS listen to Erin Tarn. How reasonable is it for the CS to write off an opportunity to get ultimate weapons simply because their #1 fugitive says it's not a good idea.

The fact of the matter is that there are ultimate weapons up there, and everyone who has tried to get up there has seen evidence of them. It's unlikely, and not very much fun to think that everyone has just 'given up'.

lets see, teleport lesser. five miles per level
+ley line =ten miles per level, 100 pounds of load
+ley nexus = fifteen miles per level, 150 pounds of load
spell cast by a mid to high level lord magus on a ley line nexus = 30 miles per level.

bored with teleport lesser, a shifter uses teleport superior and a suit of full enviromental armor, thats hundreds of miles.

teleporting somthing into orbit is no problem for magical civilitations.

I was working on something for the cs that covers that low orbit sat.
Coalition low orbital satellite (C.L.O.S.)
Hovering at altitudes greater than 60,000 feet
It will be capable of simultaneously carrying electro-optical (EO), infra-red (IR), and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) payloads, and will be capable of both wide-band and Line-Of-Sight (LOS) data link communications. Or beyond line of sight through Ku band direct link with other units, good support up to 274 megabits per second. It will integrate with the existing tactical airborne reconnaissance architectures for mission planning, data processing, exploitation, and dissemination. The electro-optical and infrared camera are on a light-weight initially stabilized system integrated with a communications range over 100km, relays video in real time via a C-band (C band is defined as frequency band between 0.5 and 1 GHz (0.3 and 0.6 m)) LOS data link. It will be capable of long dwell, broad area coverage, and continuous spot coverage of areas of interest with high resolution sensors. Radar is capable of multiple modes -- SAR strip at one meter, and SAR spot at a foot. The EO/IR payload provides NIIRS 6 or 5.5 depending on whether it's EO or IR. It will provide both wide area search radar and EO/IR imagery (40,000 sq nm) at 1m resolution and up to 1900 spot images per mission at 0.3m resolution, and it will support targeting accuracy of at least 20m CEP.
What I'm thinking of is duel rotor blades on a light tubular MD construction.
I was going to cover it in a Optical camouflage nothing to fancy just something to help blend to the sky maby even use the the sensor jammers from juicer uprising page 66...I was i going to give them a 2 year life span. No mounted weapons that would help insure that they are cheap, that way i could have the cs cover a good amount of their area with visual and sensor cover...Now the CS will have GPS location and targeting capabilities.
Now for the designing of it, our game went in a different way and i didn't finish it.

DamonS wrote:This implies that

1) There isn't a lot stuff up there that the CS would want.
This is incorrect *snip*

That was correct, you are incorrect.

Rail Guns.
CS can make them. Who cares if there are 7 ton satellites that are moistly gun and which have no air to cause rounds to incinerate due to air friction at high speeds?
CS wants a Boom Gun, let them go reverse engineer it and use their own ammo. They don't need the armor, just the guts of the gun. If they want something ae powerful as K-Sat rail gun, they can make their own really big rail gun.
If the CS is to stupid to take what they have and make it bigger, then let them go on a fools quest.

K-Sat Rail gun, 1D6x10 MD
Boom Gun, 3D6x10 MD
Big Rail Guns on CS Firestorm, 1D4x100 MD.
Tell me again why the CS needs the first one...

Ammo Endurance.
K-Sats can't just call a delivery service when they are out of ammo, they will have been made to have more than enough ammo to last them for some time.


Look at a modern tank, carries 40 rounds, kills in 1 shot most of the time, even in a battle of 10-1 odds, it will have over half its ammo left. No resupply, to making its own ammo, it just carried a lot in the first place.

The fact they can still shoot is no surprise since many probably had plenty of ammo/energy left by the time the space battles were done, and they have been up there for apparently 300 years (you forgot the 200 years between the cataclysm and the starting of the PA callender) with nothing to shoot at most of the time. Also, there are energy weapon sats also.

Power Supply.
The sun... if they put it in space, it more often than not has solar panels for power.
If the CS lacks solar power tech in general, they are bigger idiots than I thought. The sun hasn't burnt out yet, the sats will still have a source of power.
Solar power, wind power, hydro-power, tidal power... no reason to go into space for those.

High powered targeting systems.
No air, no land scape, no clouds, no terrain in general, no birds, overall much less work for filters to do, but the lack of air alone will give much better effective range of radar and targeting systems, and the fact that at a great distances, something big and fast looks slow and small...
That and even today we got ballistics computer that can park a high speed round fired from a moving vehicle precisely into a moving target a few miles away and be accurate within a few feet.

That and the CS has advanced stuff already, if they want a better targeting system, let them bite the bullet and hook up an AI to the targetng computer of each of their vehicles or PA.
Or they can just go talk to Northern Gun, the people who make those anti-juicer weapons/PA...

Self-Repair/Durable?
MDC materials don't corrode, and even then, there's no water in general in space, even tarnishing won't be a factor. MDC alloys will be able to handle basic micro-meteorite impacts a lot easier than materials we got today... Something that will possibly punch through 1 foot of SDC material is going to possibly be stopped by 1/4 inch of MDC material.
CS likely already has that kind of material tech.

Also.
There may be a lot of satellites that are still active, but there are also many that are no longer active for any number of reasons (loss of power source and lacking backup solar or loosing solar panels, running out of ammo, damaged, simply idle due to loss of sensors, etc)

Back at the tank example, one modern tank survived over 100 RPG rounds more or less intact. No self repair, no outside repair, just thick skin vs. shallow blows.

State of the art Pre-Rifts tech...
Um... the SAMAS was state of the art pre-rifts tech, and the CS has improved on it and other stuff.
Between the CS and NGR, I doubt there is much around in their forces that isn't as good as pre-rifts stuff.

Overall...
Any 'superior tech' that they want is going to be trying to shoot them down before they even get close enough to steal it... let's hope the K-Sats they want don't have a self destruct system... and that other sats won't coordinate weapons fire if a sat is compromised.

The very things that make space dangerous are the very things the CS or Triax would want. At the very least one could expect small CS squads being sent into the ruins of Washington DC to see if they could find some sort of access code or such in order to gain control of these satellites. Or the occasional launch of a probe and gather information. Sitting up there is a passel of 'ultimate weapons', which puts all involved in an interesting conundrum. Either try to get them, and lose resources and manpower, or don't try to get them, and risk someone else getting them first. The solution is...

Set aside some resources you could stand to lose (A small scale, small manpower group), and let them give it a shot. If they fail, you've not lost much, but if they get lucky, GREAT!

Again, it is tech they already have. CS has had decades of pre-rifts tech thanks to the Lone Star Complex. Triax has been around a long time. They are about the closest thing there is to pre-rifts tech. They are probably already more advanced than the stuff that has been floating in space for 300 years.

As for Washington DC...
Why would control codes for military satellites be there? IIRC, they had to bug out of there when the Cataclysm hit. The Pentagon was probably cleared out ASAP, to prevent any possible land invasion from getting access to whatever is there.
Also, I think that Archie is near that area...

IIRC, the only place likely to have that kind of access would be NORAD/SAC, which means finding the Cheyenne Mountain facility, or any other military base that handled the NORAD/SAC network in 2098.
There is also the problem that when they started to loose ground bases, that they would have default control of the satellites to the space stations, which apparently were having a lot less problems then people on the ground.

Also... who says those are American K-Sats shooting down CS stuff?
Who says those are Germal K-Sats that shoot down the NGR's attempt to get into space?
They could be Russian or African or Itallian or British or French or whoever else might have had a presence in space.
During a war, some of the sats would be cruising around over enemy territory, shooting down enemy sats and shooting down attempts to launch ballistic missiles or rockets/shuttles carrying payloads to put into space.

2) The Federation of Magic isn't interested in what the CS may be doing so would not be interested if they found out the CS was exploring this.

Again, the Federation is *very* interested in CS activity (For very logical reasons). *snip*

So... the FoM has the ability to hijack tech based systems without said systems blasting them to bits or blasting them to bits while blasting their hijacked K-Sat to bits?

3) the other angle assumes The Federation of Magic and the CS listen to Erin Tarn. How reasonable is it for the CS to write off an opportunity to get ultimate weapons simply because their #1 fugitive says it's not a good idea.

The fact of the matter is that there are ultimate weapons up there, and everyone who has tried to get up there has seen evidence of them. It's unlikely, and not very much fun to think that everyone has just 'given up'.

Again with the "ultimate weapon" stuff...

Other factors I want to toss in.

The Counter-Orbit Debris Field, and space junk in general. Being broadsided by a chunk of debris going several miles per second is going to hurt, a lot...

There's also more than just K-Sats up there...
There are satellites made to intercept missiles, satellites designed to be nothing more than decoys, satellites packing nuclear warheads for swatting down nuke missiles (or probably anything else big), and satellites that want to shoot anything else up there in their area that isn't on their side. There is other stuff also...

Blight wrote:I was working on something for the cs that covers that low orbit sat.
Coalition low orbital satellite (C.L.O.S.)

Very nice.

More proof that "high up" is just as good as "really high up".

Do one thing I had for an idea, "Active" Camouflage.
Instead of full blown optical camoudlage, it has a similar system but with pre-set patterns for blending into the different environments. It has the ability to switch camouflage schemes on the fly, mix and match the paterns, alter the color, shades of color, ect, and make the pattern move as it moves, to obscure signs of movement. basically, acting like a chameleon.
Being high in the sky, it will work good enough. It just needs a basic optic system to figure out which pattern will best blend in with whatever is behind it.

Before we continue, I guess I have a simple question, either you're totally meandering meaninglessly, or I'm really misunderstanding your point.

R Ditto wrote:

DamonS wrote:This implies that

1) There isn't a lot stuff up there that the CS would want.
This is incorrect *snip*

That was correct, you are incorrect.

*

Ok... I think I get it, you don't think there's anything up there the CS would want, and you think I'm incorrect in thinking that there is anything up there the CS would want. In this case,

how does...

R Ditto wrote:There's also more than just K-Sats up there...
There are satellites made to intercept missiles, satellites designed to be nothing more than decoys, satellites packing nuclear warheads for swatting down nuke missiles (or probably anything else big), and satellites that want to shoot anything else up there in their area that isn't on their side. There is other stuff also...

'Not' Qualify as 'a lot of stuff the CS would want' again? As far as I can tell, you've just made a marvelous Christmas list of stuff the CS (or many others) would want.

Alejandro wrote:

DamonS wrote:'Not' Qualify as 'a lot of stuff the CS would want' again? As far as I can tell, you've just made a marvelous Christmas list of stuff the CS (or many others) would want.

Uh....what? The CS HAS all the stuff he just mentioned. Nukes, railguns, decoys...the CS has everything that space has except a CO ring. It has also been stated numerous times that the CS & NGR have both tried before giving up on it. You can only sacrifice so many materials on something before a constant failure rate makes you rethink your policies.

Really, where does it say the CS has orbital nuclear strike capacity? Why hasn't the CS nuked its more potent foes if it had that ability? Kind of makes the CS all-powerful, if they could just nuke Lazlo if Lazlo gave them too much trouble.....

I can find you many places where the CS would like to have such a thing, and people/places who would be on the receiving end if it did. The 'Genocidal rage against non-humans' is one thing that suggest that a couple Megatons would end up in at least Gargoyle territory.

More importantly, why do you think the CS wouldn't care that there are orbital nukes 'up for grabs'. Someone else may get lucky and get one! THIS IS NOT GOOD! Plus the tech that could be salvaged. The CS would at least want to prevent others from getting this.

You imagine a CS with nukes literally floating overhead and the CS thinking 'yeah, they're nukes, we don't control them, but we're really not going to spend any effort on them. We're pretty sure none of our enemies will get them and we have plenty of nukes ourselves, after all, Atlantis is a sitting duck... does this make sense to you?

The 'given up' thing has been silly. It makes no sense, The largest stockpiles of pre-rifts weapons known, no one controls them, dangerous to get to... yes..... but it just doesn't make sense that groups like the CS don't have something on the back burner, small groups of people whose job it is to watch, try something every now and again, maybe it works, maybe not, but just in case one of them gets lucky...

Operative word... small, inexpensive, but you still keep trying. Nothing big, the big operations didn't work, but you still do small things, telescopes, radio contacts, the occasional unmanned probe, maybe more if someone reports a breakthrough (a Rift that goes to orbit... that's an opportunity!). If some egghead thinks of a clever way to send a group of patsies up there on the cheap for a quick look... you take it (and rope some poor PC's in). And you keep an eye on your competitors, to make sure they are doing similarly (because if they commit something big, they probably know something).

It's a lot like the Forge War... except the folks in Rifts know the stuff in space is actually there (that's what's shooting at them).

...yet.

I agree with Alejandro. There is nothing up there the CS can't replicate (except GPS ROFL). They have nukes, they are on the missile chart (Long Range Nuclear, Multi-Warhead) but these are tactical, just like the ones on the satellites. Do they want CANs Space glitter Boys? They don't even want the ones on Earth. They might want a 5d6x10 particle beam cannon that fits on a PA, but its only a short matter of time before they have that now.
All that aside, the CS or Triax or even Japan are not in any position to attack the space colonies, let alone fight a sustained war with them.
That's just crazy talk. I don't think they'd even try until the earth was unified under a common banner, and communication or trans-continental travel is reliable, and monsters, supernatural evil, etc. were no longer a major threat.

Kryzbyn wrote:...yet.

I agree with Alejandro. There is nothing up there the CS can't replicate (except GPS ROFL). They have nukes, they are on the missile chart (Long Range Nuclear, Multi-Warhead) but these are tactical, just like the ones on the satellites.

Those are NOT tactical... Tactical is "oops, we missed the town by a mile and still leveled most of it"
The LRMs are sub-tactical nukes, and are probably not even 1% the power of the nukes dropped on Japan in WWII.

Do they want CANs Space glitter Boys? They don't even want the ones on Earth. They might want a 5d6x10 particle beam cannon that fits on a PA, but its only a short matter of time before they have that now.
All that aside, the CS or Triax or even Japan are not in any position to attack the space colonies, let alone fight a sustained war with them.
That's just crazy talk. I don't think they'd even try until the earth was unified under a common banner, and communication or trans-continental travel is reliable, and monsters, supernatural evil, etc. were no longer a major threat.

Speaking of crazy talk... you're driving me crazy little tiny mistakes.
KLS on Freedom Station has the GB Mk4, not the CAN, and the gun does 4D6x10 MD, not 5D6x10 MD, which is the Naruni Juggernaut PBC.

I was surprised to see you mention Japan as a contender to get back into space.
Of all the powers, probably Japan is in the best position to get back into space, they got the tech, the knowledge of pre-rifts times, etc. But last I checked, they haven't bothered trying to get back in space. They probably remember little details like hundreds or thousands of of "Brilliant Pebbles" sattelites up in orbit (rough guess, if 500 are in MiO, then before the world went to heck, there were probably a lot moreup there).

The Japan Space Program probably has a note of "On hold until we invent contra-gravity drive equipped cloaking vessels with super allow armor that will possibly survive long enough to get useful information despite the mess of K-Sats that are likely still active up there."

Although, I wouldn't put it past them to put their good PB tech to good use, perhaps by creating ground based beam arrays designed for taking out sats and clearing a path in the CODF.
I can also see them resurecting anti-satellite missiles.

But one option I see Japan as most likely to do first is to build large telescopes, large radio communication dishes, etc, and get a good idea of just what is going on up there, try to restablish contact with space, etc.
With a big enough comm. dish, they could likely pick up radio transmissions from space that normal radios cannot pick up (small antenna vs. a dish the size of a large swimming pool)

I'm sure that the orbitals will have their interest peaked by...
A: A chunk of Japan suddenly appearing the way it was before the rifts hit, an entire city and landscape where it once was 3 centuries before.

"What the heck? That's odd... and interesting"

B: Signs of, of all things, large formations of GBs on the move, and of other pre-rits stuff being seen.

"Okay, that's new... or old... or whatever..."

C: picking up a signs of VLCAs (Very Large Communication Arrays) on the ground, and of someone trying to establish contact with the orbitals, by aiming the VLCAs right at the locations of major stations (geostationary orbit, should be in the 'same' place as they were in pre-rifts times).

"Eh? How in the heck do they know the old codes for the Sino-Japanse station and its exact coordinates during the past? And why are they now trying to contact other stations by aiming the VLCAs at the exact coordinates of other geo-stationary stations in their "line of sight"?"

D: Signs of large telescope observitories being built

"Time to close the curtains at my quarters, that sucker looks HUGE..."

E: Signs of Japan possibly trying to get probes and such into space, som sending out messages trying to contact the orbitals, and soon they try to to throw up a space probe the 'hard' way, i.e., so it goes up going 'with the flow' of the CODF, all the time using modified LRMs with a few extra stages added.

"What the heck are they doing down there? Er... looks like we only have 497 Brilliant Pebbles left... they sure are bloody persistant with those modified LRMs.."

F: A bunch of annoyed or bored people buy a bunch of 1m squares of plating or cardboard or whatever, and in huge letters, spelling out a message like "We know you are up there" and "E.T. Phone Home Now? We Will Accept Collect Calls!" or "How Much for US Programming?" or even "Terrans Rule! Spacers Drool!" and maybe "Stop Ignoring Us!".

"Okay, they definately think we're up here..."

G: They start beaming their network channels into space, just for kicks, hoping someone up there, sooner or later, will slip up and send down a message of somethin glike "I want the next season of Gundam 0352 made NOW!!!!"

"Okay, Godzilla with Power Armor is just freaking crazy... although Mecha Giadra transforms into a wicked looking space ship... wait... why are they posting satellite phone numbers in the credits of some of these shows?"

H: 12 strait hours of a Japanese School Girl whining and complaining that no one in space likes her, she goes on and on and on about them being cruel, cold hearted people that just prove that Japan is the only source of humanity left, yadda yadda yadda... typical annoying person style psychological warfare to get any sort of reply, no matter how offensive...

"Arghhhhhhh!!!! I can't take her whining! Someone open a communications channel before I throw them out the airlock! If they don't shut her up, I'm authorizing a nuke strike on that comm. dish!!!!"

R_Ditto wrote:Speaking of crazy talk... you're driving me crazy little tiny mistakes.
KLS on Freedom Station has the GB Mk4, not the CAN, and the gun does 4D6x10 MD, not 5D6x10 MD, which is the Naruni Juggernaut PBC.

Heh but you KNEW what i was talkin about

R_Ditto wrote:Those are NOT tactical... Tactical is "oops, we missed the town by a mile and still leveled most of it"
The LRMs are sub-tactical nukes, and are probably not even 1% the power of the nukes dropped on Japan in WWII.

Well, had 2 choices: Tactical nukes or strategic. At 1d4x100 doesn't seem very strategic...

I figured of all of 'em japan would be the best bet, and the others would need their help. They'd be the only ones who would remember they were up there for sure, would have communication access (QUIT SHOOTING!! ITS ONLY US!!!) and/or actually have golden age tech to get up there, manned or otherwise. I think though they'd get a bigger shock from the debris field than the brilliant pebbles (where the f**K did this crap come from!!). Anyhoo, you got my point

Kryzbyn wrote:

R_Ditto wrote:Those are NOT tactical... Tactical is "oops, we missed the town by a mile and still leveled most of it"
The LRMs are sub-tactical nukes, and are probably not even 1% the power of the nukes dropped on Japan in WWII.

Well, had 2 choices: Tactical nukes or strategic. At 1d4x100 doesn't seem very strategic...

Tactical is "Oops, we missed the town by a mile and still leveled most of it."
Strategic is "Oops, we almost missed the state the town was in, and still leveled most of the town."

Sun-Tactical, like LRMs, good for small targets.
Tactical, in the kiloton range (often hundreds of kilotons), good for wiping out entire bases, towns, cities, etc, have a blast radius of a few miles.
Strategic (likely rated in megatons), good if you wanted to take out entire armies and the country side they are in, possibly taking out the majority of stuff in an ENTIRE state, blast radi could get upwards of hundreds of miles for an effective zone of leveling stuff, and dozens of miles for more or less taking out everything in general.

Oh, btw, I can figure out that a 2000 pound bomb (which has a half ton of explosives, and a half ton of metal casing) as doing 4D6x100 MD to a 150ft radius (instant kill zone/concrete shattering zone of real 1 ton bomb)
Using just Dynamite I get 1D4x100 MD to 150ft radius
Using something like C4, a good 2D4x100 MD to 150ft radius.
Using MD Dynamite, I get 2D4x1000 MD to 150ft radius...
Yep, those LRM nukes are sub-tactical, and the actual CS nukes are so under powered that it isn't funny...
Be more destructive just to drop a MOAB packing 5 tons of Dynamite, a good 1D4x100 MD to a 450ft radius (instant kill zone/concrete shattering zone of a MOAB)
GB Confetti anyone?

I figured of all of 'em japan would be the best bet, and the others would need their help. They'd be the only ones who would remember they were up there for sure, would have communication access (QUIT SHOOTING!! ITS ONLY US!!!) and/or actually have golden age tech to get up there, manned or otherwise. I think though they'd get a bigger shock from the debris field than the brilliant pebbles (where the f**K did this crap come from!!). Anyhoo, you got my point

CODF would surprise them a little bit, they would at least be expecting space junk.
Brillaint Pebbles would not surprise them, as such things would have been around pre-rifts times. (nuke missile used to taking out ballistic missiles as they reah the top of their arc before heading back down and deploying warheads... concept is around even today...)
They would also be expecting other K-Sats, but probably not the being shot at part.

Alejandro wrote:Only massive problem with Japan is that:

A) Only the Republic of Japan would be able to try this.
B) The RoJ is about to be involved in a massive &$*(storm with Ichto & the Otomo Shogunate as well as the Oni.
C) The New Empire is their hippy neighbor who'd be none to happy about constant launches and missile barrages as a 3 city country tries to get into space.
D) The RoJ alone does not have the resources needed to start up a space program, it's too small.

A: Yeah, that's what I had in mind.
B: So? Today, it's hard and expensive, in Rifts, they got supersonic missiles that outrange todays cruise missiles. Not like it will take away much resources/manpower.... they got 25,000 GBs, I don't think industrial capacity or logistics is a major factor.
C: I don't see how the occasional modified LRM type rocket being fired up is going to annoy them that much when compared to stuff like missile volleys.
D: Who said they had to be building massive stuff to launch massive payloads into orbit off the bat?
I'm thinking about them starting with small scale stuff using much more complex tech and far more powerful engines that would also be easier and cheaper to make than would be available todays tech. Just trying to put probes or small satellites into orbit won't be that much of a drain on resources... I'm sure they could spare a few basic gutted LRMs each month (no warheads, no complex guidance systems, rig up a second one two make a 2 stage system) and just a team of a dozen or so people.

For the RoJ, getting into orbit would be of great use. The CS has tons of stuff as it is, RoJ does not have the luxury of butt loads of territory, resources and people, so they will have to work with quality over quantity, and work smarter, not harder. Just sending up some probes to find out what's still up there might not be that expensive. Other stuff might be, but chances are, they already got lots of smaller satellite dishes around on the top of business buildings, etc, that could be turned into an effective "super" array, by having them work in unison to greatly increase the effective surface area and transmission power as a whole.

RoJ could at least end up developing sometlhing like Blight made, a "satellite" that simply hovers really high up. For the CS, they got possible enemies that could swat the hover sats down, but doesn't RoJ have far fewer tech based opposition? Could probably get by with one that doesn't need tons of stealthy stuff.

The thing is, while the Orbitals have lots of pre-Rifts high tech available to them, and certainly actual examples of pre-Rifts equipment, most of their advances with that tech base have been adhoc and fuelled by desperation...and with a limited influx of crosspollination by other technologies....Earth was still the simmering pot of technologies, corporate headquarters, internet data leaks, and corporate espionage, with the Orbital colonies being on the end of a long chain of tech-development...this was starting to change with the movement of corporations into orbit and the movement of space facilities from pure research to product development, testing, and manufacture, but the bulk of work still was happening groundside..where it was either destroyed or buried to be later dug up by nations such as Triax, NOrthern Gun, or the CS....

For the most part, the Orbitals have played their tech advantages close to their chests, and really haven't cultivated the sort of large-scale trade alliances or multi-species shared tech that many planetside nations do(even though the CS and Triax tend to do this by interrogating d-bee technicians to death and reverse engineer remains and spoils of war)...The Orbitals have also tended to concentrate their R&D programs on improving basic services...life support, food production, and the like...the CS doesn't have to worry about stretching air supplies, so it can focus more of its effort on military tech...

In short, the Earthside nations are likely to eventually supersede the Orbitals in many tech-fields(especially in weapons tech) and pose a real threat to them unless the Orbitals are going to make alliances with some of the more advanced aliens out at large in the solar system, share their technology bases, and do much more reverse-engineering...Ironically, the Outcast Station may be in the best position to do this, with their rather liberal society, but their poverty and credo of individualism keeps them from making any sort of meaningful sustained effort and creating the industrial infrastructure to best exploit any advances they make...

As for (sub)orbital recon...I'd go with aerostats...provided there isn't a whole new upper atmosphere ecology we haven't seen yet....

taalismn wrote:The thing is, while the Orbitals have lots of pre-Rifts high tech available to them, and certainly actual examples of pre-Rifts equipment, most of their advances with that tech base have been adhoc and fuelled by desperation...and with a limited influx of crosspollination by other technologies.... *snip*

I'm sure they would still have creative people on each station... they can't really afford to flush an important scientist's work out an airlock, no matter how mundane or unusual it might be. They need every edge they could get over the other orbitals.
There is also the angle of espionage.
You never know when some independent traders/merchants could be agents of sorts.

*snip*
Orbital colonies being on the end of a long chain of tech-development...
*snip*

Why would that be? Just because they are in space doesn't mean they aren't important.
It's not like it would be impossible for them to have their own databases, just so they don't have a constant load on comm. systems everytime someone wants to access large chunks of info that aren't updated often.
I feel they would have tech more or less on par with those on the ground, because space can be just as important.

For the most part, the Orbitals have played their tech advantages close to their chests, and really haven't cultivated the sort of large-scale trade alliances or multi-species shared tech that many planetside nations do
*snip*

True, but as I mentioned, independent traders and espionage could be a factor. Even something small can have a big effect on things.

In short, the Earthside nations are likely to eventually supersede the Orbitals in many tech-fields(especially in weapons tech) and pose a real threat to them unless the Orbitals are going to make alliances with some of the more advanced aliens out at large in the solar system, share their technology bases, and do much more reverse-engineering...
*snip*

It seems to me, that since the Arhkons showed up, that the orbitals would be a little more willing to work together, since they will have had a "common foe" that is a totally alien force.

One that will have given them a reason to share tech, including military tech, for a purpose of mutual survival.

Sure, they might not hand over everything, but they might be willing to share their "lesser" stuff.
Freedom Station might be willing to share stuff not relating to their GBs, CAN might be willing to share anything not relating to their VERDS or AI tech, etc.