Oh my god, they killed the Cap!

[Novastar]

*sigh*

That statement was not meant to be taken literally Marrowlight.

My point is Neil Gaiman is a great writer and great writers have fans. You may not be a fan and that is fine but you can't have angst against someone who is a fan. Mark Millar has fans but I dislike the guy but I don't have anything against his fans.

EDIT: Edited because my original post was inflammatory and I did not mean for it to be.

I assume the statement from the Cartoon Network guy was meant to be taken literally. Great writers have fans....but Gaiman has a very special breed of fans beyond his normal people fans. These are the Gaimanites. They're like the all black clothes beret wearing open poetry night coffee house living jerk offs of the comic industry. Their nose curls like an elf's at the first hint of spandex, and their soul dies a loud emo death if they see a person with the name "man" in it that isn't their beloved "Sandman". Even references to the original golden age Sandman elicit a scoffing sound that's like audible pity as their heads shake like bobble head automatons at the ignorance of those from the 40s to not have the foresight to leave their glorious name alone.

I have absolutely nothing against Gaiman as a person. I think he's a hell of a writer. Gaimanites, however, are to be slaughtered on sight. It is only for the good of mankind that I do this -- not that any of them are likely to breed anyway.

lol.
So Gaimanites are a lot like Saxonites, in regards to Star Wars...

[Sir_Spirit]

Um i don't mean to get back on topic, but Captain America isn't Dead

Yes he is.

The above is a trap laid by Iron Man.

[Sir_Spirit]

Forgot what I was gonna say....

[Marrowlight]

Forgot what I was gonna say....

This, it seems.

[Sir_Spirit]

Forgot what I was gonna say....

This, it seems.

No, it was double post of sorts.

[Sir_Spirit]

But you didn't answer my question... Say it's May 1980. You're standing in line outside the movie theatre for the 9:00 show of Empire Strikes Back. The crowd from the 7:00 show empties out and some jackhole yells out, "Vader is Luke's father!" Would you be OK with that?

Strawman.
IT was on CNN.
GRow up.

[Sir_Spirit]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason.

The only ones who are guilty of treason are Iron Satan and the unamerican peices of filth who sided with him.
THe only act of treason cap's guilty of is surrendering his side.

[MASTERMIND]

Yep , im gonna say it.....who is Nick Gaiman? besides a writer, of i assume comic books. I loved comics until the early 90's, and then quit, and just started back again, with civil war.

He is to Mastermind what Bill Coffin is to Therumancer.

Wait, wait, wait... I think Neil Gaiman is a great writer but all I have read of his work is Neverwhere and American Gods. I own Anansi Boys but I haven't read it yet. I haven't read any of the Sandman comics or seen anything else he has done. I read two of his books and based on that I think he is a great writer but I'm not tripping over myself to get to the bookstore to read every word he wrote. You guys read into my words too much. I was making a generic statement and you guys thought I was talking about myself. You guys need to find an actual fanboy if you are going to poke fun. If reading two of a writer's works makes someone a fanboy then several of you are in for a world of hurt and ridicule.

Actually it was just a chance to get a shot off at the board's most notorious holder of a man-crush. You just happened to be a quasi-innocent victim...caught in a horrible internet driveby.

HU FO' LIFE! I REPRESENT DA' BOARDS, MUTHA*****!!!

No worries, no worries. You learn something new every day and now I know thanks to your efforts that there is a cult out there known as the Gaimanites, secretly trying to take over the world or at least infect everyone with their emo music. Did I get that right? Hehe

[Uncle Servo]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason.

The only ones who are guilty of treason are Iron Satan and the unamerican peices of filth who sided with him.
THe only act of treason cap's guilty of is surrendering his side.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why trying to make political statements via comic books is a very bad idea.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Yep , im gonna say it.....who is Nick Gaiman? besides a writer, of i assume comic books. I loved comics until the early 90's, and then quit, and just started back again, with civil war.

Gaiman wrote the Sandman series for DC and is a writer of great depth. He writes more than comic books.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason.

The only ones who are guilty of treason are Iron Satan and the unamerican peices of filth who sided with him.
THe only act of treason cap's guilty of is surrendering his side.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why trying to make political statements via comic books is a very bad idea.

Characters such as Cap were created during WWII and used to bolster patriotism. In times when the government is oppressive, he is used to combat it and make statements. The reason for this is he is supposed to be the American ideal. You kind of have to buy into that for it to work.

[Sir_Spirit]

I was kind of figuring that they would have to do something drastic like this to Cap. He lead a failed revolt against the United States, he's guilty of treason.

The only ones who are guilty of treason are Iron Satan and the unamerican peices of filth who sided with him.
THe only act of treason cap's guilty of is surrendering his side.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why trying to make political statements via comic books is a very bad idea.

Exactly

[The Baron of chaos]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

[Stone Gargoyle]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

Values only appear in comics when they think it will sell anymore. S#x has becom too profitable and they seem to want to exploit the more violent aspects.

[Marrowlight]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

Values only appear in comics when they think it will sell anymore. S#x has becom too profitable and they seem to want to exploit the more violent aspects.

To be fair, comics have been exploiting the more violent aspects since DKR and the Watchmen made everyone go "omg omg omg" 20 years ago.

Kinda sad really, that it's still going on even if some awesome work has appeared as a result.

[Uncle Servo]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

Values only appear in comics when they think it will sell anymore. S#x has becom too profitable and they seem to want to exploit the more violent aspects.

To be fair, comics have been exploiting the more violent aspects since DKR and the Watchmen made everyone go "omg omg omg" 20 years ago.

Kinda sad really, that it's still going on even if some awesome work has appeared as a result.

Actually, it's been going on long before that... which is why the Comics Code Authority was adopted more than 50 years ago.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

Values only appear in comics when they think it will sell anymore. S#x has becom too profitable and they seem to want to exploit the more violent aspects.

To be fair, comics have been exploiting the more violent aspects since DKR and the Watchmen made everyone go "omg omg omg" 20 years ago.

Kinda sad really, that it's still going on even if some awesome work has appeared as a result.

Yes, the aptly named Dark Age of Comics. It has produced a great number of grittier comics, but there are so many people trying to exploit older, established characters which were written originally as much cleaner and more principled. There needs to be a middle ground.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The fact is tha *** was not truly a spoiler, it was advertisment, Do you really think that CNN could air somethign that Marvel did not knew?
Nahh THEY wanted us to know, to tickle our fantasies and start discussion like this one, that will sell more comics.
And Unless you truly avoid any form of contact, burying yourself in a church till the comic is actually in your hand, well, ther eis little chance you can't get this info. Plus there is the problem tha tif you succed in suhc effort, pointless effort, you end up way behind in message board. Damn I live in Italy and unless i buy american edition I'll have to wait at least another year for the comic book in question to reach my land. Wha tshoudl I do? Sitting in a corner, not connecting to internet for na year. COME ON, comics are cool. But they are just comics. Enjoy it but don't over charge them of too much .....hmm wha'ts the word...values..

Values only appear in comics when they think it will sell anymore. S#x has becom too profitable and they seem to want to exploit the more violent aspects.

To be fair, comics have been exploiting the more violent aspects since DKR and the Watchmen made everyone go "omg omg omg" 20 years ago.

Kinda sad really, that it's still going on even if some awesome work has appeared as a result.

Actually, it's been going on long before that... which is why the Comics Code Authority was adopted more than 50 years ago.

But sadly noone pays the code any mind anymore.

[The Baron of chaos]

What the!!! The comic code was the dumbest thing ever, and saying you care about it is silly. I don't mind sex and violence, if they make sense. If they fit the story. But today seem we got violence for no sense, not even the sheer pleasure of it. The fact that fan react thinkign positive thing of the comic code, well, is a baad sign, means that they had overfilled the market , with too much stuff.

[Marrowlight]

Like the video game rating system I preferred the code to the alternative. BUT I am quite happy to see its general removal.


And while sex and violence certainly existed before the Watchmen/DKR explosion there is no denying that it has had a constant effect on comics since. The 50's certainly didn't reflect continually through the mainstream 60s and 70s like DKR and Watchmen and what not have through the last 20 years of today.

[Uncle Servo]

What the!!! The comic code was the dumbest thing ever, and saying you care about it is silly. I don't mind sex and violence, if they make sense. If they fit the story. But today seem we got violence for no sense, not even the sheer pleasure of it. The fact that fan react thinkign positive thing of the comic code, well, is a baad sign, means that they had overfilled the market , with too much stuff.

How can you say the Comics Code Authority was the "dumbest thing ever?" At the time it was adopted, the primary demographic for comics was younger than it is today. It was essentially trying to give comics what would amount to a rating of "G," "PG," or at the most "PG-13" by today's standards. It's easy to look back now half a century later and call it lame, but I will at least give 'em credit for trying to do something.

The CCA is it was adopted in the 50s probably wouldn't be feasible today, sure... but with the way things are going I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we didn't see a re-vamped version in the not-too-distant future (maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?). All the corporate suits seem to see is that "grit sells" and so they keep encouraging creative teams to be edgier and grittier... which results in more of this crap seeing print.

My take has always been that if you have to consistently rely on sex and violence to tell a story, then either you're doing a poor job of telling it or it's not really worth telling in the first place.

[Marrowlight]

(maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?).

Marvel's been doing this since the ditched the CCA years ago.

[Uncle Servo]

(maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?).

Marvel's been doing this since the ditched the CCA years ago.

Just goes to show you how much I've avoided Marvel in recent years...

[Marrowlight]

(maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?).

Marvel's been doing this since the ditched the CCA years ago.

Just goes to show you how much I've avoided Marvel in recent years...

pretty much, OLD MAN!

[Uncle Servo]

(maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?).

Marvel's been doing this since the ditched the CCA years ago.

Just goes to show you how much I've avoided Marvel in recent years...

pretty much, OLD MAN!

Don't make me beat you with my cane...

[Marrowlight]

(maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?).

Marvel's been doing this since the ditched the CCA years ago.

Just goes to show you how much I've avoided Marvel in recent years...

pretty much, OLD MAN!

Don't make me beat you with my cane...

Like you could lift it high enough.

[Stone Gargoyle]

What the!!! The comic code was the dumbest thing ever, and saying you care about it is silly. I don't mind sex and violence, if they make sense. If they fit the story. But today seem we got violence for no sense, not even the sheer pleasure of it. The fact that fan react thinkign positive thing of the comic code, well, is a baad sign, means that they had overfilled the market , with too much stuff.

The comics code protected little kids who wanted to read comics, like i did when I was 5. I hardly think my parents would have let me if there was a lot of gratuitous sex and violence in them. I would not be as warped as I am today if it were not for comics.

[Stone Gargoyle]

What the!!! The comic code was the dumbest thing ever, and saying you care about it is silly. I don't mind sex and violence, if they make sense. If they fit the story. But today seem we got violence for no sense, not even the sheer pleasure of it. The fact that fan react thinkign positive thing of the comic code, well, is a baad sign, means that they had overfilled the market , with too much stuff.

How can you say the Comics Code Authority was the "dumbest thing ever?" At the time it was adopted, the primary demographic for comics was younger than it is today. It was essentially trying to give comics what would amount to a rating of "G," "PG," or at the most "PG-13" by today's standards. It's easy to look back now half a century later and call it lame, but I will at least give 'em credit for trying to do something.

The CCA is it was adopted in the 50s probably wouldn't be feasible today, sure... but with the way things are going I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we didn't see a re-vamped version in the not-too-distant future (maybe giving comics ratings like the video game industry uses?). All the corporate suits seem to see is that "grit sells" and so they keep encouraging creative teams to be edgier and grittier... which results in more of this crap seeing print.

My take has always been that if you have to consistently rely on sex and violence to tell a story, then either you're doing a poor job of telling it or it's not really worth telling in the first place.

At least countries which do a lot of adult comics began labeling them for adults. Some companies don't even bother to do that.

[Sir_Spirit]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

[Marrowlight]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

Not quite right, but horror comics certainly took the brunt of the damage. Comics were certainly a more mixed bag than they are today, but it was also a very different business model as a whole back then.

[The Baron of chaos]

frankly I remain of my opinion. But I think today we finally accepted, at least partially, that comics and cartoons are not just material for kids. They ar ea medium that could be used to tell whatever story do you wish for. But again each story had its target. In Japan oddly they understood this from the begin of their history in the field of comics, and they have a very very different genre , each for a different audience, read MPD, Berserk or Homunculus. Not stuff for kids, sure, but neither hellraiser, reservoir dogs or stalker are. I will accept a comic code ONLY if it limits itself to clear what is the target fot he comic in question. Frankyl If such code will rpevent me to enjoy some masterpiece like Hellblazer or 300...well I'll have start again stealing porn magazine from bookshop like when i was 15.

[Marrowlight]

But I think today we finally accepted, at least partially, that comics and cartoons are not just material for kids.

Depends on who you ask. I wouldn't even consider it a hard challenge to find 2000 random people in one day who'd watch a super hero movie that would never read a comic because they're for kids, or even worse, for geeks and weirdo's.

I will accept a comic code ONLY if it limits itself to clear what is the target fot he comic in question.

Uhm, whether you accept it or not the comics code has been around for what, over fifty years now?

Frankyl If such code will rpevent me to enjoy some masterpiece like Hellblazer or 300...well I'll have start again stealing porn magazine from bookshop like when i was 15.

Since the code exists already, obviously it didn't stop them. However, 50 years ago it would have.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

Yes. Inhterestingly enough, Steve Rogers writes the Cap comic following his own exploits, according to the comics.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

Not quite right, but horror comics certainly took the brunt of the damage. Comics were certainly a more mixed bag than they are today, but it was also a very different business model as a whole back then.

Right. Many were romance and westerns, as well as real crime fiction as opposed to the genre as it exists today. There are flavors of the old comics mixed in, but now it is all about the superpowers that be, to the powers that be.

[Marrowlight]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

Not quite right, but horror comics certainly took the brunt of the damage. Comics were certainly a more mixed bag than they are today, but it was also a very different business model as a whole back then.

Right. Many were romance and westerns, as well as real crime fiction as opposed to the genre as it exists today. There are flavors of the old comics mixed in, but now it is all about the superpowers that be, to the powers that be.

Basically. Don't forget space adventures and dinosaurs.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Form what I've heard.
Before the comics come most comics were Horror genre stuff, not Superhero comics.
It caused some comics book companies to shut down.
CCAIn the Marvel Comics universe, a fictional Marvel publishes comic books based on the "real-life" exploits of superheroes. She-Hulk (2004 series) established that the fictional Marvel submitted its publications to the Comics Code Authority for approval, until breaking with the CCA in 2001 as the real Marvel did. This fictional CCA is vaguely identified as a federal agency, and CCA comics based on "true" events are considered to be legal documents useable as evidence in a court of law. The fictional law firm of Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway in She-Hulk has an extensive library of CCA-approved Marvel comics for reference purposes.

Not quite right, but horror comics certainly took the brunt of the damage. Comics were certainly a more mixed bag than they are today, but it was also a very different business model as a whole back then.

Right. Many were romance and westerns, as well as real crime fiction as opposed to the genre as it exists today. There are flavors of the old comics mixed in, but now it is all about the superpowers that be, to the powers that be.

Basically. Don't forget space adventures and dinosaurs.

Oh, yes, them.

[Marrowlight]

Famously, Fredric Wertham mostly used comics meant for adults (particularly the EC comics and other horror and crime genre publishers) to bully home his point that comics were warping America's youth, much like 'crusaders' tend to do now when trying to restrict sales of video games and movies to keep them out of the hands of children, ignoring that they are already clearly labeled as not being for children.

I will never defend Wertham....but on the notion that comics weren't meant for children, sidekicks weren't developed just because Robin was such a cool guy. They were the identification characters for the child audience the comics of the 40s were shooting for. It proved a rather effective tool for him to focus in on.

[Marrowlight]

Famously, Fredric Wertham mostly used comics meant for adults (particularly the EC comics and other horror and crime genre publishers) to bully home his point that comics were warping America's youth, much like 'crusaders' tend to do now when trying to restrict sales of video games and movies to keep them out of the hands of children, ignoring that they are already clearly labeled as not being for children.

I will never defend Wertham....but on the notion that comics weren't meant for children, sidekicks weren't developed just because Robin was such a cool guy. They were the identification characters for the child audience the comics of the 40s were shooting for. It proved a rather effective tool for him to focus in on.

You're talking about the superhero comics, which were largely a niche and were indeed mostly for children, which is why they managed to whether the CCA so well- adaptation wasn't really a problem.

Actually I'm just talking about the notion of opening a door. Legal battles and more crusades are won as often through a single catching idea as they are mountains and mountains of actual proof. Give people one thing to hold on to and their imaginations take care of everything else.

Think of sidekicks as his gateway drug into the vile and evil world of hardcore comics.

[Marrowlight]

Famously, Fredric Wertham mostly used comics meant for adults (particularly the EC comics and other horror and crime genre publishers) to bully home his point that comics were warping America's youth, much like 'crusaders' tend to do now when trying to restrict sales of video games and movies to keep them out of the hands of children, ignoring that they are already clearly labeled as not being for children.

I will never defend Wertham....but on the notion that comics weren't meant for children, sidekicks weren't developed just because Robin was such a cool guy. They were the identification characters for the child audience the comics of the 40s were shooting for. It proved a rather effective tool for him to focus in on.

You're talking about the superhero comics, which were largely a niche and were indeed mostly for children, which is why they managed to whether the CCA so well- adaptation wasn't really a problem.

Actually I'm just talking about the notion of opening a door. Legal battles and moral crusades are won as often through a single catching idea as they are mountains and mountains of actual proof. Give people one thing to hold on to and their imaginations take care of everything else.

Think of sidekicks as his gateway drug into the vile and evil world of hardcore comics.

[Marrowlight]

Famously, Fredric Wertham mostly used comics meant for adults (particularly the EC comics and other horror and crime genre publishers) to bully home his point that comics were warping America's youth, much like 'crusaders' tend to do now when trying to restrict sales of video games and movies to keep them out of the hands of children, ignoring that they are already clearly labeled as not being for children.

I will never defend Wertham....but on the notion that comics weren't meant for children, sidekicks weren't developed just because Robin was such a cool guy. They were the identification characters for the child audience the comics of the 40s were shooting for. It proved a rather effective tool for him to focus in on.

You're talking about the superhero comics, which were largely a niche and were indeed mostly for children, which is why they managed to whether the CCA so well- adaptation wasn't really a problem.

Actually I'm just talking about the notion of opening a door. Legal battles and moral crusades are won as often through a single catching idea as they are mountains and mountains of actual proof. Give people one thing to hold on to and their imaginations take care of everything else.

Think of sidekicks as his gateway drug into the vile and evil world of hardcore comics.

[Stone Gargoyle]

On a very similar note, how many people have read Brat Pack by Rick Veitch? That series addressed the hero sidekick with focus on the disturbing issues of child abuse and pedophilia.

[Marrowlight]

Either I'm not saying it right, or you're just not getting what I'm saying -- I'll try again after class when I have time.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The issue is very disturbing, especially when you consider Bucky and Cap were the same age when Cap became a supersoldier and he kept his "friend" around, even to the point of endangering himself and Bucky. Apparently the super serum made cap appear older and much larger.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Where do you get that from? Is that a recent change that they made?

The mini-series they did where they revealed most of the test subjects for the super serum were black. As for calling everyone "kid" and "son", many writers stopped doing that due to the revealed age.

It seems you did more research on it as well, but I figure they just decided the continuity was whack and were trying to make up for flaws in logic, even though they seem to have created more by doing so.

[Aramanthus]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

Born on the Fourth of July? Really? How original...

[Stone Gargoyle]

Just don't forget Cap was born July 4, 1917. And that is his offcial date of birth.

Born on the Fourth of July? Really? How original...

It was. In the 40's...when he was created.

Not really. And what are the odds the one successful super soldier they produced just happened to be born on Independence Day?

[Daniel Stoker]

Not really. And what are the odds the one successful super soldier they produced just happened to be born on Independence Day?

What do odds have to do with the originality or not of the concept here? What are the odds of a bald guy with telepathy being able to afford to open a school to further his dream of mutants and humans living together and to fight against his ex-best friend who holds to the view that mutants should rule due to their superiority?


Daniel Stoker

[Ronin Shinobi]

or the odds of a radioactive spider bitting a guy who would discover how to create webbing and invent wrist shooters for it.

[Uncle Servo]

We're already dealing with people who can fly without an airplane, juggle armored cars, run faster than the speed of sound, and deliver lethal energy blasts from their bare hands. To get hung up on "the odds" is like not being able to enter the forest because you keep bumping into all those darn trees.