To take on Atlantis

[Subjugator]

One word;
'Dominator'
'Nuff said

I'm thinking no. Maybe many of them, but not a single one attacking with just himself and his minions.

/Sub

[Qev]

The most powerful of the rune weapons are created using the souls of greater supernatural beings, including gods, ancient dragons, greater elementals, and demon lords (WB2 Atlantis, page 127).

Those attacked by a soul drinking weapon, having had their blood drawn, must save vs. magic with a target of 14 or greater. Failing the save, they're irrecoverably destroyed. Making the save, they take triple damage (or double, if they're just an SDC critter). Note that Splugorth already take triple damage from magical and silver weapons, including rune weapons, so Splynny is probably a bit leery, at least, of letting someone near him with one. He does get +2 on his save, however.

Nothing in Splynncryth's description even remotely implies any immunity to a soul-drinking attack, so I'd personally say it'd be a valid way to take him out. Good luck getting anywhere near the tentacly bugger with a soul-drinker, though.

[Jesterzzn]

Good luck getting anywhere near the tentacly bugger with a soul-drinker, though.

Yea, that's the part of the "plan" that seems to need some, ehem, attention.

[Subjugator]

A deity could beat the snot out of a Sploogie if he could get within 100' of Mr. Sploog.

Godblast would do it, and it would nail just about anything really. I mean, a 1,000,000 point blast is pretty well deadly, isn't it?

/Sub

[Vrykolas2k]

A deity could beat the snot out of a Sploogie if he could get within 100' of Mr. Sploog.

Godblast would do it, and it would nail just about anything really. I mean, a 1,000,000 point blast is pretty well deadly, isn't it?

/Sub

That would be lowered when converted to MDC, but still hideous.
An adult dragon would still be subject to the Sould Drinker, and I'm not sure if the ancient ones are invulnerable or not. I'm still looking through a bunch of books to prove my statement.

[Subjugator]

That would be lowered when converted to MDC, but still hideous. An adult dragon would still be subject to the Sould Drinker, and I'm not sure if the ancient ones are invulnerable or not. I'm still looking through a bunch of books to prove my statement.

Not according to D&G it wouldn't be lowered when converted:

The simplest way to do this is a straightforward point for point conversion, meaning that something that has 100 M.D.C. would not have 100 S.D.C. This type of transition is super simple and usually proportionally corresponds to an S.D.C./hit point world...

I'd say that'd kill just about anything out there.

/Sub

[Jesterzzn]

The simplest way to do this is a straightforward point for point conversion, meaning that something that has 100 M.D.C. would not have 100 S.D.C. This type of transition is super simple and usually proportionally corresponds to an S.D.C./hit point world...

I'd say that'd kill just about anything out there.

/Sub

Including the God that does it. Somehow I doubt many gods would be willing to kill themselves just to do away with one splugie.

[dark brandon]

Some thoughts

1) I think it's cheap of a gm not to allow something to work because they want something else. If a player casts "petrify" at a super-being he's casting it in hopes it will work, not because he thinks it's not going to work, and unless the description says otherwise, it should work. Same thing with a rune sword. He's using it to hopefully kill whatever he's swinging it at. The chances of him actually suceeding are already against him to begin with.

2) Splynn has billions of soldiers, but he also holds a multitude of other worlds. Unless your kitani or a powerful MDC race, I'm sure living under the rule of splynn isn't all cakes and roses. While Splynn may have billions of soldiers we have no idea how subjegated the other worlds are. If pulling even a million soldiers from one world will threaten it's stability he may/may not let the world go to keep atlantis.

[Subjugator]

The simplest way to do this is a straightforward point for point conversion, meaning that something that has 100 M.D.C. would not have 100 S.D.C. This type of transition is super simple and usually proportionally corresponds to an S.D.C./hit point world...

I'd say that'd kill just about anything out there.

/Sub

Including the God that does it. Somehow I doubt many gods would be willing to kill themselves just to do away with one splugie.

It's very easy for them to be resurrected by the other deities in their pantheon.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Some thoughts

1) I think it's cheap of a gm not to allow something to work because they want something else. If a player casts "petrify" at a super-being he's casting it in hopes it will work, not because he thinks it's not going to work, and unless the description says otherwise, it should work. Same thing with a rune sword. He's using it to hopefully kill whatever he's swinging it at. The chances of him actually suceeding are already against him to begin with.

I've already said going toe to toe with a splewgorth is munchy in and of itself.

2) Splynn has billions of soldiers, but he also holds a multitude of other worlds. Unless your kitani or a powerful MDC race, I'm sure living under the rule of splynn isn't all cakes and roses. While Splynn may have billions of soldiers we have no idea how subjegated the other worlds are. If pulling even a million soldiers from one world will threaten it's stability he may/may not let the world go to keep atlantis.

Atlantis is the jewel in his crown. I think he'd expend some effort to save it.

/Sub

[dark brandon]

I've already said going toe to toe with a splewgorth is munchy in and of itself.

It could be munchy or powergaming. Munchy = playing super powerful character who obliterates any-everything.

Powergaming = Roleplaying but with powerful characters.

2) Splynn has billions of soldiers, but he also holds a multitude of other worlds. Unless your kitani or a powerful MDC race, I'm sure living under the rule of splynn isn't all cakes and roses. While Splynn may have billions of soldiers we have no idea how subjegated the other worlds are. If pulling even a million soldiers from one world will threaten it's stability he may/may not let the world go to keep atlantis.

Atlantis is the jewel in his crown. I think he'd expend some effort to save it.

/Sub[/quote]

The question being how much is he willing to expend.

[Subjugator]

Ensorcel/Deathword was in the original version of Federation of magic, back when it was printed WITH the spells, not forcing people buying newer books to purchase BOM. Anyways, Ensorcel has -3 to save vs magic (so that is 15 to 19 to save depending on magic user spell power). Then the victim can no longer save against any magic cast by the Ensorcel caster. Hence the deathword spell. Granted Splyncrith has to roll low, but it is possible. I have a character that I used 9 years ago. I used Ensorcel/deathword, and killed an adult dragon. Luckily though, the gm rolled a 2 to save, otherwise if it would have saved, my PC would have been real dead real quick.

I'd not have allowed it with an adult dragon. Some things can be overcome by simple power.

I guess I have to retract the deathword disallowance. It explicitly works on gods, so it'd also work on dragons.

/Sub

[Astral_Explorer]

Thus another big reason why a Soul Drinker should be considered.

[Jesterzzn]

The simplest way to do this is a straightforward point for point conversion, meaning that something that has 100 M.D.C. would not have 100 S.D.C. This type of transition is super simple and usually proportionally corresponds to an S.D.C./hit point world...

I'd say that'd kill just about anything out there.

/Sub

Including the God that does it. Somehow I doubt many gods would be willing to kill themselves just to do away with one splugie.

It's very easy for them to be resurrected by the other deities in their pantheon.

/Sub

Sorry but we have grossly differing views of the term easy, and given the rivalries that exist in most pantheons, I think you are drastically underplaying the risk involved.

[Subjugator]

Sorry but we have grossly differing views of the term easy, and given the rivalries that exist in most pantheons, I think you are drastically underplaying the risk involved.

...whereas any member of a pantheon has a pretty good chance of being brought back (they may not like you, but at least you keep the balance of power). At least two gods in the pantheon must want the deceased back in order to revive a dead god.

Most deities can find two others in their pantheon to wish for them to be revived.

/Sub

[Jesterzzn]

Sorry but we have grossly differing views of the term easy, and given the rivalries that exist in most pantheons, I think you are drastically underplaying the risk involved.

...whereas any member of a pantheon has a pretty good chance of being brought back (they may not like you, but at least you keep the balance of power). At least two gods in the pantheon must want the deceased back in order to revive a dead god.

Most deities can find two others in their pantheon to wish for them to be revived.

/Sub

Read the requirements for bringing a god back after a total body sacrafice or whatever the things called that is required to do a god blast. I remember it being quite a bit more than the simple desire of two members. Involving years of deadicated worship and a complete loss of all preistly powers by the deities priests.

[Vrykolas2k]

Thus another big reason why a Soul Drinker should be considered.

Which would disallow resurrection, since the soul's in the blade...

[Subjugator]

Thus another big reason why a Soul Drinker should be considered.

Which would disallow resurrection, since the soul's in the blade...

A soul drinker wouldn't work against a god or alien intelligence.

/Sub

[Talavar]

Has anyone found a book ruling that says soul drinking doesn't work on gods or alien intelligences? I wish it was true, as I hate soul drinking, and have basically left them out of my version of Rifts, but has confirmation been found on that?

[cornholioprime]

Has anyone found a book ruling that says soul drinking doesn't work on gods or alien intelligences? I wish it was true, as I hate soul drinking, and have basically left them out of my version of Rifts, but has confirmation been found on that?

Closest thing to canon is in a place called the Cutting Room floor.

And in that document, the ONLY creatures in the entire Megaverse totally immune to the effects of the Soul Drinking Attack are the Old Ones.

[Subjugator]

Has anyone found a book ruling that says soul drinking doesn't work on gods or alien intelligences? I wish it was true, as I hate soul drinking, and have basically left them out of my version of Rifts, but has confirmation been found on that?

I've had a more direct form of ruling that says it would not work on Splynncryth, but it's not going to be stated by anyone but me - his take on things is to make the ruling to fit what your game needs - but you can take that ruling as you will.

/Sub

[Astral_Explorer]

Thanks for checking with KS.

I can understand his view, but growing up with books about Elric of Melnibone and Stormbringer, not even gods take that blade lightly.

Also if Gods power these things then they have the power to destroy one of their own. My own view, you take the fear out of a weapon powered by a god, a greater elemental or a demon lord and why bother with creating a merely mortal slaying weapon, makes no sense considering they do enough damage to kill a mortal sdc being with a single swipe anyway.

They in my opinion were designed not as weapons to destroy mere mortals but something fellow gods, AI's and Demon Lords have to fear and if you can't kill Splynncryth with one you can sure as hell toss him into one to power it.

As to the Gods fearing the Splugorth one need only look at how the Zeus and his family locked away the Titans, their own equiveleant of the Old Ones. Beings who were gods to gods, so Zeus tip toeing around Splynncryth I don't see it. He is just as vulnerable as the titans to being locked away or killed.

If it is to protect the world as is so no major changes could be made then I would like to see Emperor Prosek, The Pharo Ra Ma Set, Dunscon and the Gargoyle Lord in charge of the Gargoyle Empire equally immune since they are just as much a staple of the Rifts setting as any other.

You take the sting of fear of true death away from such beings and fighting them does indeed become a pointless endeavor as more then one or a thousand Tattoo men would just resurrect Splynncryth from death due to massive damage.

Take the players and the NPC's out of the game at this point when it comes to fighting things like the Splugorth war effort or no.

No wonder gods fear them, a Splugorth could hurl a God into a rune weapon and now laugh whenever they are stabbed by such weapons.

[Talavar]

Thanks for checking with KS.

I can understand his view, but growing up with books about Elric of Melnibone and Stormbringer, not even gods take that blade lightly.

They in my opinion were designed not as weapons to destroy mere mortals but something fellow gods, AI's and Demon Lords have to fear and if you can't kill Splynncryth with one you can sure as hell toss him into one to power it.

As to the Gods fearing the Splugorth one need only look at how the Zeus and his family locked away the Titans, their own equiveleant of the Old Ones. Beings who were gods to gods, so Zeus tip toeing around Splynncryth I don't see it. He is just as vulnerable as the titans to being locked away or killed.

Damn Moorcock! He's the one I have to blame for stupid soul-drinking rune swords, isn't he?

Anyway, it's explicitly stated in Conversion book 2 and World Book 21, the Splynn Dimensional Market, that Zeus knows he & his pantheon couldn't directly take on Atlantis. So you "not seeing it," is a matter of you not reading the relevant books apparently.

[Kelorin]

Wait, so you are suggesting that gods should have access to rune weapons that can easily kill other gods & YAAI's in a single hit? That is like suggesting that robots should have guns that can destroy other robots in one or 2 shots.

You should know by now that goes completely against the Rifts paradigm. Nothing is allowed to kill anything else in single shot. Even gods are required to spend 6 - 8 hours poking each other with insignificant pinprick weapons before one of them keels over.

[Subjugator]

Thanks for checking with KS.

I can understand his view, but growing up with books about Elric of Melnibone and Stormbringer, not even gods take that blade lightly.

As stated in PMs, those are blades that are unique in construction. There aren't thousands or millions of them. There are precisely two.

They were legendary even to the Melniboneans and the gods themselves.

Also if Gods power these things then they have the power to destroy one of their own.

Not necessarily.

To use a comparative idea, we power dart guns that can flies, but that cannot kill us as simply as the flies (though a person could *hypothetically* be killed by a dart gun, it's not quite the engine of destruction to us that it is to a fly).

My own view, you take the fear out of a weapon powered by a god, a greater elemental or a demon lord and why bother with creating a merely mortal slaying weapon, makes no sense considering they do enough damage to kill a mortal sdc being with a single swipe anyway.

Because they can kill lesser demons, greater demons, sub-demons, super powerful human beings and D-Bees, spirits of light, baby dragons, monsters, and about a jillion other things.

They in my opinion were designed not as weapons to destroy mere mortals but something fellow gods, AI's and Demon Lords have to fear and if you can't kill Splynncryth with one you can sure as hell toss him into one to power it.

Except the creator and designer of the game disagrees with you.

As to the Gods fearing the Splugorth one need only look at how the Zeus and his family locked away the Titans, their own equiveleant of the Old Ones. Beings who were gods to gods, so Zeus tip toeing around Splynncryth I don't see it. He is just as vulnerable as the titans to being locked away or killed.

I'm not sure that this relates to the use of soul drinking rune swords. A god versus a god (or alien intelligence) is one thing. A person versus a god (or alien intelligence) is another idea completely.

If it is to protect the world as is so no major changes could be made then I would like to see Emperor Prosek, The Pharo Ra Ma Set, Dunscon and the Gargoyle Lord in charge of the Gargoyle Empire equally immune since they are just as much a staple of the Rifts setting as any other.

The question is not who, but how directly powerful.

You take the sting of fear of true death away from such beings and fighting them does indeed become a pointless endeavor as more then one or a thousand Tattoo men would just resurrect Splynncryth from death due to massive damage.

Again - this isn't a matter of 'the sting of death' - this is a matter of whether or not you can give something with 100,000+ MDC an instant kill with a single sword that is relatively common. It's not gonna happen.

Take the players and the NPC's out of the game at this point when it comes to fighting things like the Splugorth war effort or no.

No wonder gods fear them, a Splugorth could hurl a God into a rune weapon and now laugh whenever they are stabbed by such weapons.

I disagree. The Splugorth would hurl the deity into the rune weapon, who would grow angry at the damage and fight back.

/Sub

[Astral_Explorer]

Relativly common must have a whole different meaning for you then for me. You make it sound like you go to bobs rune shop to pick a few up for the weekend.

No Splynncryth himself makes these things so can certain others.

I didnt say pop him with a wilks laser torch, I said a soul draining weapon. Heck Soul Drinkers are supposed to be powered by Godlike beings.

It's a moot point it seems since the it wont happen because I dont want it to happen ruling has been made.

Heck make other staples of Rifts earth immune too, amount of mdc means ZILCH does he have a soul ? It can be drunk.

You say God like beings have no soul ? then what the hell powers these greater rune weapons ?

No good it sounds like the explanation is : I don't want it to happen thus it can't. Which is the GM call area.

I could just picture a GM saying that, "Uhmn you can't because I don't want that to happen."

So back to anyone vs Atlantis---- Why bother, you can always say It can't happen cause I don't want it too. As GM.

Sure anyone running a game could do that and what is the point playing in games where GM's arbitrarily decide such things.

Why not have a player say "Nope can't kill me with that MD pistol even though I am unarmored because that's a munchkin thing sorry GM."

It's in the same light power level of Splyncryth or not.

If a GM says it is impossible to tackle Atlantis and I SHALL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE, then why bother trying.

Prosek is a Staple of Rifts Earth should he be immune ?
Should Dunscon ? How about the Gargoyle Lord in charge of the Gargoyle Empire or Pharo Rama Set ?

A GM could arbitrarily decide these forces are unbeatable too just because they feel like doing so. Does it make it right thats completley upto the GM and the Players acceptence of such things.

The Scenario that was asked in this post was what army could face Atlantis. One scenario involved getting rid of Splynncryth for good.
Toss that aside and add to the fact he has many MANY forces that can resurrect him. Of course I would say he has no soul to restores ince he has no soul for a soul drinker to take. It matters little now with the decision you recieved it isn't a situation of who can take Atlantis it is a situation of why bother trying.

After all Splynn will be back with and with millions of troupes if not a billion. If he is killed he will be restored and thus be able to marshall a force and retake Atlantis over and over again.

If nukes are used you will take out minions, the same with poison gasses etc. The splugorth probablly even have some slave minion out there that can absorb radiation to clean up Atlantis from a nuke or a few going off.

If you luck out and take down Splynn he'll be back and as has been stated he will be back with many more troupes if he so choses.

You want to defeat Atlantis open a Slavemart like competitor with locations in every city so that Splynncryth loses money. Otherwise a physical war especially since apparently Gods tremble around the Splugorth is pretty pointless. Even more pointless if your GM says no.

Zeus and his pantheon locked away or defeated the Titans beings supposedly kind of like Gods to Gods, yet these guys are affraid of the Splugorth. I guess someone told the God's players "He can mess with you but you have no shot at messing with him, he can toss you into his weapons if he wants but I won't let you kill him in a way that takes him from the game."

In that case I can see why the Gods turn a blind eye, and have a we ignore him philosophy.

If you think a Rune weapon taking out Splynncryth is beyond acceptable because it is cheap or you think it is munchkin, I have to wonder do you also say the same about MD weapons vs sdc beings because a one shot kill is equally cheap ?

I much prefer a Splynncryth who has to worry about the nasty possibility of an art of magic he keeps alive being his downfall. A powerfull, potent and nasty form of magic that if you say it's common is because of beings like him that it is so.

Still with that ruling if it is made official and you want to toss Atlantis some other suggested rifting it away by reducing leylines. If this would work great. Splynn might set up shop elsewhere it won't be Atlantis but will probablly be in England most likely as it has more leylines then almost anyplace else. Of course this time he would be wary of someone messing with the leylines.

Locking him away in one of those hundred thousand years sleeps is a good possibility unless this is viewed as cheap and munchkin as well.

I think I will keep my Splynncryth savy of avoiding death from rune weapons, if you prefer keeping him unbeatable and if he is defeated resurectable, all the power to you. Just let your players know all their time effort and plans won't change things ultimatly and ask them if they still want to play. You might get a lot of angsty WoD players who would. Most people who play rifts especially in a scenario as big as some army vs Atlantis prefer to think they can make a difference.

[dark brandon]

Nothing is allowed to kill anything else in single shot.

A soul drinking weapon can kill anything in one shot.

MDC vs SDC will kill in one shot.

At least vs. a soul-drinking weapon the favor is on the god's side.

[dark brandon]

Everything Astral explorer said

Fredfred burger: "Yes"

[Astral_Explorer]

Listen Subjugator, I am not saying it should be easy or that people walk up to Splynncryth to shake his tentacles all the time and they have rune weapons on them.

Iv'e never really considered them common, but a point could be made in Rifts that AI's are common we tend to see them a lot.

Atlantis has a few including Splyncryth, heck AI's come to vacation in Atlantis at least the Splugorth ones do.

We have Nyxla, The Lord of the Deep, Zazshan, The many Vampire intelligences, Wothan also a Splugorth, The Frog thing in Australia and Thoth one of the scarier ones. This is just off the top of my head and doesn't include ons from Phase world or other dimensions.

So if these guys are so common and there are some others like the Cloud thing in one of the summary guides or the thing at the back of the Mercanary handbook. Then I guess it makes sense that Rune Weapons are common. There are no shortages of these guys to power up such weapons.

That's without including Demon Lords, the Night Lords, Gods, and other suitibly powerfull things. Heck some of the more potent Metzla are just a step down from some of the weaker super powerfull beings and that's just their race without them being AI's or Gods etc.

Splyncryth doesn't need an extra immunity as you have stated he is a godlike being with frightening power so why give him more ?
Why add yet another immunity to him just to frustrate players or even other NPC's ?

He has enough magic and psionics and the power to use such things far more then any mortal mage, he has tons of minnions to draw extra power from. Chances are he has his own rune weapons since he makes the things I highly doubt he didn't make one or two for himself.

He has more then enough mdc.

He has pretty great saves against a lot.

If confronted by such an attack he could erect a magical or psionic defense to keep his hide safe and he could dimensionally flee if things got really bad.

He could also call in any number of minions to DEAL with this transgressor etc and most likely they will be equally armed to do so.

I can't post exact powers or abilities of Splyncryth since it go's against Forum rules, but anyone who has the books can see a score of ways in which he could defend himself. He doesn't need even more power added to him.

Heck having a bunch of mages use teleport lesser to send in 50 lbs of
K-Hex or some other super explosive material all at once set to explode upon arrival might be considerd a cheap way for him to go too.

Should he be immune to this because it is a cheap kill, certainly not but he has adequate means at his disposal to sense it ahead of time, since I would certainly consider a ton of explosives in anyones lap to be life threatening.

But in a scenario with him being attacked by a rune weapon if you make him immune I can see his ability to sense the danger not even going off, after all they could stab him a few times before he would swat them and since a strike or four wouldn't kill him it's not even a life threatening attack.

I would feel cheap if I ran a game in which the players spent a great deal of time energy effort and planning to assasinate someone like Prosek.
If they were able to cover most contingencies and somehow get close to the man to take a shot and I said it sizzles a little when it hits his skin and he scowls at you.

Likewise I would feel cheap if the players spent an even greater amount of time effort and energy to get close enough to Splyncryth for a shot at him with a rune weapon and I turned to the players and said, "I'm not even going to roll a save he ignores it."


Some GM's wouldn't feel that way though and thats fine, I can only speak for myself. Just please let your players know that if you think an attack is a cheap shot or munchkin that you will dissallow it. That way they are not dissapointed and feel like they wasted their time and energy.


Or you could say upfront my view as GM on AI's is they exist beyond the bounderies of other beings, in addition to their immense power and followers I have added immunities to death magic and Rune Weapons as a possibility for death on such creatures.

Your Players will probablly respect that and won't ever try to fight AI's.
It's not like fighting an AI is an easy thing anyway.

I can respect not liking a one shot kill thing since it might make you feel it is anticlimatic.

[Subjugator]

Relativly common must have a whole different meaning for you then for me. You make it sound like you go to bobs rune shop to pick a few up for the weekend.

Tanks, missiles, and 747s are all relatively common. The average Joe will never have one.

No Splynncryth himself makes these things so can certain others.

Yeah.

I didnt say pop him with a wilks laser torch, I said a soul draining weapon. Heck Soul Drinkers are supposed to be powered by Godlike beings.

Or greater demons, or many other things (including human beings).

It's a moot point it seems since the it wont happen because I dont want it to happen ruling has been made.

Heck make other staples of Rifts earth immune too, amount of mdc means ZILCH does he have a soul ? It can be drunk.

Again, not according to the creator of the idea, game, and race being discussed.

You say God like beings have no soul ? then what the hell powers these greater rune weapons ?

1. The magic inherent in their creation.
2. The soul of the human being that was killed during their creation.

No good it sounds like the explanation is : I don't want it to happen thus it can't. Which is the GM call area.

Except it's not that explanation. It's that the weapon is not sufficiently powerful to accomplish what you are describing, as per the creator of the game.

I could just picture a GM saying that, "Uhmn you can't because I don't want that to happen."

So back to anyone vs Atlantis---- Why bother, you can always say It can't happen cause I don't want it too. As GM.

This is a serious question - were you sober when typing this? I ask because it is very stream of consciousness in nature and rather difficult to keep track of the ideas being expressed in this manner.

Sure anyone running a game could do that and what is the point playing in games where GM's arbitrarily decide such things.

So what you're saying then is that YOUR game is arbitrary, since I've gotten quasi-official confirmation of my point?

Why not have a player say "Nope can't kill me with that MD pistol even though I am unarmored because that's a munchkin thing sorry GM."

Do you really think they're similar? One is a human being being attacked by a comparatively poweful weapon, the other is a being on par with or more powerful than, the most powerful beings active in the megaverse, and he's being attacked by a comparatively weak weapon that is deadly to most (though not him, as per the semi-official ruling).

It's in the same light power level of Splyncryth or not.

If a GM says it is impossible to tackle Atlantis and I SHALL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE, then why bother trying.

It's not impossible to tackle Atlantis. It's impossible to kill Splynncryth in a single hit. There's a difference.

Prosek is a Staple of Rifts Earth should he be immune ?

Prosek doesn't have > 100,000 MDC.

Should Dunscon ? How about the Gargoyle Lord in charge of the Gargoyle Empire or Pharo Rama Set ?

They don't have > 100,000 MDC.

A GM could arbitrarily decide these forces are unbeatable too just because they feel like doing so. Does it make it right thats completley upto the GM and the Players acceptence of such things.

The Scenario that was asked in this post was what army could face Atlantis. One scenario involved getting rid of Splynncryth for good.
Toss that aside and add to the fact he has many MANY forces that can resurrect him. Of course I would say he has no soul to restores ince he has no soul for a soul drinker to take. It matters little now with the decision you recieved it isn't a situation of who can take Atlantis it is a situation of why bother trying.

You can take Atlantis with the right forces and the right planning. You cannot 'one shot' Splynncryth. There is a difference. Please stop equating the two.

If you think a Rune weapon taking out Splynncryth is beyond acceptable because it is cheap or you think it is munchkin, I have to wonder do you also say the same about MD weapons vs sdc beings because a one shot kill is equally cheap ?

I say that a rune weapon taking out Splynncryth IN ONE SHOT is beyond acceptable. You want to make it so a single SDC being could hypothetically run up to him, whack him once, and he's out for eternity.

Sorry, but that's munchkin.

I much prefer a Splynncryth who has to worry about the nasty possibility of an art of magic he keeps alive being his downfall. A powerfull, potent and nasty form of magic that if you say it's common is because of beings like him that it is so.

You *do* realize he's perfectly capable of being killed by that or about a zillion other weapons, right? He just can't be killed in one hit by them.

Still with that ruling if it is made official and you want to toss Atlantis some other suggested rifting it away by reducing leylines. If this would work great. Splynn might set up shop elsewhere it won't be Atlantis but will probablly be in England most likely as it has more leylines then almost anyplace else. Of course this time he would be wary of someone messing with the leylines.

Locking him away in one of those hundred thousand years sleeps is a good possibility unless this is viewed as cheap and munchkin as well.

I think I will keep my Splynncryth savy of avoiding death from rune weapons, if you prefer keeping him unbeatable and if he is defeated resurectable, all the power to you. Just let your players know all their time effort and plans won't change things ultimatly and ask them if they still want to play. You might get a lot of angsty WoD players who would. Most people who play rifts especially in a scenario as big as some army vs Atlantis prefer to think they can make a difference.

hey man, do what you like. He's not unbeatable, but he certainly isn't subject to being poked with a rune sword and instantly dying.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

A soul drinking weapon can kill anything in one shot.

Obviously not.

/Sub

[DocS]

Nothing is allowed to kill anything else in single shot.

A soul drinking weapon can kill anything in one shot.

MDC vs SDC will kill in one shot.

At least vs. a soul-drinking weapon the favor is on the god's side.

This is why the rules for 'soul drinking' should be changed. It's total bambi vs godzilla. "soul drinkers' only fall into the category of 'greater' rune weapons. (It can kill the Lord of The Deep in one hit.... but it's only 'greater'... the 'greatest' ones should be able to destroy planets!).

And for only 30 million credits... one can be *yours*! Act now, and we'll throw in this Splynncryth commemorative plate absolutely free!

The soul drinker rules are reckless. Instead there should be a 'degree' of soul drking. A successful soul drink should do something like 10x damage. That way, Gods would indeed have more powerful soul drinkers than the ones Thraxus can buy wholesale.

[asajosh]

Nothing is allowed to kill anything else in single shot.

A soul drinking weapon can kill anything in one shot.

MDC vs SDC will kill in one shot.

At least vs. a soul-drinking weapon the favor is on the god's side.

This is why the rules for 'soul drinking' should be changed. It's total bambi vs godzilla. "soul drinkers' only fall into the category of 'greater' rune weapons. (It can kill the Lord of The Deep in one hit.... but it's only 'greater'... the 'greatest' ones should be able to destroy planets!).

And for only 30 million credits... one can be *yours*! Act now, and we'll throw in this Splynncryth commemorative plate absolutely free!

The soul drinker rules are reckless. Instead there should be a 'degree' of soul drking. A successful soul drink should do something like 10x damage. That way, Gods would indeed have more powerful soul drinkers than the ones Thraxus can buy wholesale.

Yes Souldrinkers are POWERFUL, even by rune weapons standards. That's why they are comparitively RARE!

If your unhappy with the rules, I believe Palladium has several methods to address this. The first, and most obvious, is to house rule it. Alternately you can write up some alternate rules for Rune Weapons and Souldrinkers specifically and submit to the Rifter, or post them here.

And as to this whole Souldrinking the Lord of the Deep scneario:
1) Get to him.
2) Get close enought to inflict a cutting strike.
3) Have the Lord Fail his save vs magic.
Sounds about as plausible as say... Mind Wiping a vampire so it forgets to how to feed....

Seriously if anyone has played out any scenario where they (or their party or players) have managed to take out ANY canon alien intelligence (not home made ones) with a souldrinking weapon, Post a new thread or PM me. I'd LOVE To read it!! Thanks!

[Astral_Explorer]

Options for facing Splyncryth or other Splugorth.

Rune Weapons, as has been said by others your GM might just make him immune.

Exposure to the Rift in the Azlum Asylum it says any race is effected except children. Of course your GM might make him immune to that.

Actually sending him into the above dimension It states they are lost forever, it even says if this happens to your PC roll up a new character.

Your GM might make him immune to this as well.

Sending silver nitrate poisoning on nanobots into him since he is vulnerable to silver. Once again your GM might ignore his vulnerability and make him immune to this as well.

Creating a rift to a star below him, Yes he can pop off some powers to protect him and get him out of there but it should hurt and blind him.

Use Silvered radioactive rounds, as has been explained in the Triax books radioactivity prevents bioregeneration. Masses bursts of such things should hurt him and it will take a spell to purge him or skilled surgeons or psionics. Probablly make him rethink the safety of being on earth.
Of course your GM might make him immune to radiation.

More humurously create the worlds largest silvered chainsaw that takes a team of super strong gods to weild together and go at him.

I am not saying how viable the options are or that any of them are easy but if you don't have a GM that arbitrarily Veto's your idea's then you have a chance.

If you do have a GM that Veto's every option to keep an NPC around then tell the GM they have a new Power.
Immunity to players.

We RP to have fun, not to bang our head against the wall and if a GM were to set up a battle between the armies of rifts earth and Atlantis, I atleast hope they would give you a chance. If they don't plan on giving you a chance then go play something where you have a shot and will have fun.
Players can't read a GM's mind and know exactly how they want the PC's to defeat one of their villians don't assume your players will use the method you chose, they may surprise you.

Players are not characters in a book who the author can dictate to, they are independant people with their own idea's.
Sure you can shoot down those idea's or have several of their plans not turn out right but to keep adding powers to allready godlike beings so the PC's have no chance is exactly how many would view it.

[Talavar]

Yes Souldrinkers are POWERFUL, even by rune weapons standards. That's why they are comparitively RARE!

If your unhappy with the rules, I believe Palladium has several methods to address this. The first, and most obvious, is to house rule it. Alternately you can write up some alternate rules for Rune Weapons and Souldrinkers specifically and submit to the Rifter, or post them here.

And as to this whole Souldrinking the Lord of the Deep scneario:
1) Get to him.
2) Get close enought to inflict a cutting strike.
3) Have the Lord Fail his save vs magic.
Sounds about as plausible as say... Mind Wiping a vampire so it forgets to how to feed....

Seriously if anyone has played out any scenario where they (or their party or players) have managed to take out ANY canon alien intelligence (not home made ones) with a souldrinking weapon, Post a new thread or PM me. I'd LOVE To read it!! Thanks!

Is it that hard to get close enough to the Lord of the Deep? His miles long tentacles attack the surface all the time. So 1 & 2 of your list aren't hard at all. The Lord of the Deep failing his save is unlikely, but it will statistically happen eventually if you chop one of his tentacles enough. And the tentacles are attached to and part of his main body, so it works.

And are soul drinkers comparitively rare? Several sources say 70% of rune weapons are soul-drinking rune swords. And there are a lot of rune weapons out there now. Almost every major player in the megaverse has one, plus a lot of minor powers.

I find the whole original point of this thread interesting though. Right now there are 2 'kill Splynn/Atlantis' threads going on, and I have to ask, why? Splynn himself is anarchist alignment, so he's less evil than most of the major figures in Rifts. You don't see these kind of threads on how to kill Emperor Prosek, or Merlin ( I forget the weird Rifts spelling of his name), both of whom are more 'evil.'

I can only assume it's the slavery aspect of it that makes Atlantis considered so evil, which is interesting, since slavery equalling one of the worst evils in the world is such a modern idea. Most of the societies the world has ever had have had slavery or something very close to it; heck, even the Bible doesn't have a problem with slavery. I mean, yeah, slavery is pretty bad, don't take me as pro-slavery or anything, but there are worse evils in the world.

[asajosh]

Rune weapons in general are supposed to be rare.
Yes many NPCs have them, but they are NPCs. And they are a tiny number compared to the countless trillions of the Megaverse.

[Subjugator]

It can kill the Lord of The Deep in one hit....

Again - it cannot. This has been answered in particular.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

If your unhappy with the rules, I believe Palladium has several methods to address this. The first, and most obvious, is to house rule it. Alternately you can write up some alternate rules for Rune Weapons and Souldrinkers specifically and submit to the Rifter, or post them here.

It's been addressed in a personal conversation, though not in any book.

And as to this whole Souldrinking the Lord of the Deep scneario:
1) Get to him.
2) Get close enought to inflict a cutting strike.
3) Have the Lord Fail his save vs magic.
Sounds about as plausible as say... Mind Wiping a vampire so it forgets to how to feed....

Actually, no. You just have to get one of his tentacles to attack you, you cut it up enough for it to bleed, and then he would die (if they effected him).

Seriously if anyone has played out any scenario where they (or their party or players) have managed to take out ANY canon alien intelligence (not home made ones) with a souldrinking weapon, Post a new thread or PM me. I'd LOVE To read it!! Thanks!

I cry Munchy to anyone who does.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Options for facing Splyncryth or other Splugorth.

Rune Weapons, as has been said by others your GM might just make him immune.

...or by the creator of the game.

Exposure to the Rift in the Azlum Asylum it says any race is effected except children. Of course your GM might make him immune to that.

Actually, I think that's been addressed in a Rifter article. It'd work against anyone...even a Splugorth.

Actually sending him into the above dimension It states they are lost forever, it even says if this happens to your PC roll up a new character.

A Lizard Mage came out of it.

Your GM might make him immune to this as well.

We get the point - you don't like the idea of the GM running the game. I'm going to try and ignore the rest of your whining in this post.

I am not saying how viable the options are or that any of them are easy but if you don't have a GM that arbitrarily Veto's your idea's then you have a chance.

Saying that an alien intelligence with over 100,000 MDC cannot be killed in a single hit by a soul drinking weapon is not arbitrary. Why don't you get over that?

We RP to have fun, not to bang our head against the wall and if a GM were to set up a battle between the armies of rifts earth and Atlantis, I atleast hope they would give you a chance. If they don't plan on giving you a chance then go play something where you have a shot and will have fun.
Players can't read a GM's mind and know exactly how they want the PC's to defeat one of their villians don't assume your players will use the method you chose, they may surprise you.

Players are not characters in a book who the author can dictate to, they are independant people with their own idea's.
Sure you can shoot down those idea's or have several of their plans not turn out right but to keep adding powers to allready godlike beings so the PC's have no chance is exactly how many would view it.

OK - let's make a few things clear, because you seem to be having difficulty with the logic I am providing.

Here's what I am NOT saying:

1. Splugorth (including Splynncryth), gods, and other Alien Intelligences cannot ever be killed.
2. Soul drinking weapons never work.
3. Soul drinking weapons would not work on Karl Prosek.
4. Soul drinking weapons would not work on Alistair Dunscon.
5. Atlantis cannot ever be defeated.
6. Rune weapons are weak.
7. Rune weapons cannot hurt Splugorth, gods, and Alien Intelligences.
8. A GM should change the rules willy-nilly whenever he feels like it.
9. A GM has a sole goal of killing his players.
10. A GM can and should present his players with challenges that cannot be overcome.

Here's what I *AM* saying:

1. Splugorth and beings of similar power cannot be killed in one (or five, or ten) hits with one or more soul drinking rune weapons. The way to kill them with such weapons is by doing enough damage in a quick enough period of time to drain them of MDC before they can stop you or escape.
2. Kevin has verbally agreed with me on number 1. I don't know or care if he'll publish anything on it - I was asking him for my own edification. I know that I was and am right, and that is sufficient for me.
3. There are other methods one could use to kill an Alien Intelligence in short order. Rune weapons are not a way to do so if you want it to be in one hit.
4. If your GM actually lets you get into toe to toe, life or death combat with Splynncryth and you have any expectation of successfully killing him, you're in a munchkin game. That's fine if that is what you want to do, but please don't act like it isn't.
5. Your arguments are to name call, use straw man arguments, and ignore the fact that the designer of the game disagrees with your statements. That doesn't mean that you cannot house rule that the soul drinker works on them. It does mean that you are showing how very weak your argument is.

-Dennis

[dark brandon]

This is why the rules for 'soul drinking' should be changed. It's total bambi vs godzilla. "soul drinkers' only fall into the category of 'greater' rune weapons. (It can kill the Lord of The Deep in one hit.... but it's only 'greater'... the 'greatest' ones should be able to destroy planets!).

And for only 30 million credits... one can be *yours*! Act now, and we'll throw in this Splynncryth commemorative plate absolutely free!

The soul drinker rules are reckless. Instead there should be a 'degree' of soul drking. A successful soul drink should do something like 10x damage. That way, Gods would indeed have more powerful soul drinkers than the ones Thraxus can buy wholesale.

The availibility of rune weapons are subjective to the GM. It's 30 million if you can even find a seller.

Even the ones on Atlantis don't seem to cry out they can be bought "wholesale".

For example: Pg 127 of Atlantis

"The splugorth are extreamly discreate in the creation use and distribution of rune weapons"

"greater rune weapons are seldom sold and few rune weapons of any kind are sold "openly", even in atlantis..."

"Most assume all rune weapons were created thousands of years agoe. the splugorth would like to keep things that way".

Also note the GM note on the page

"The secrets of rune magic should never be learned by any PC....Knowledge will be hunted down and destoryed by the splugorth regardless of the cost".

[Astral_Explorer]

It was more a situation of trying to stay on topic as to why Slyncryth more then anything.

Sure there are other evil figures out there if a topic were started for each I am sure you would find people posting to all of them.

There are a few AI's that are scarier then Splynncryth personaly but the topic was Atlantis which unless you count China and the Hells lead by the Yama Kings probablly has the most concentrated gathering of troops.

Atlantis may even have more troops and if you consider Splynncryths other holdings it would seem he trumps all of earths forces in manpower.

A question of is this incredible Empire of Splynncryths unstoppable, well if you follow the posts you will see many people believe so. He has the raw man power and personal power of an AI.

While the Zazshan Intellect in England exists I just cant seem to take him seriouslly. Honestly even as he flayed me alive I would be shaking my head over how he chose to go about things in England. If a force wanted to remove him and knew where he was a concentrated effort could be made to purge the earth from him.

Nyxla the Harvester of Souls, one of the scarier AI's. Heck this thing on a personal level scares me worse then the Lord of the Deep, is certainly more evil in a way then Splyncryth but as has been pointed out Splyncyrth also tosses souls into rune weapons so it is debatable although I still think Nyxla trumps him on sheer scariness.

Prosek I must admit to liking, sure he is a villian but atleast he is a human villian. From a certain standpoint he is heroic being just as nasty in protecting humanity as other forces are in harming and destroying it.
If this thread were about his death I think people would have far less of a problem. Certainly no one would argue that he was godlike and immune to rune weapons but heck you never know someone might. He is a staple of Rifts as much as Splyncryth, heck if Atlantis was gone from Rifts earth it wouldn't impact the world as a whole that much but would limit the amount of equipment including rune weapons.

Atlantis is a nice sticking point he gives something for Archie to vent against. He is hated by a few other AI's like the Vampire AI's and the one in England and others I might be missing. He is a nice foil even to other evil forces. As well as to good forces. Heck I could see a good god saving small groups of each slave race and building one heck of an impressive minion force in their own right with the goal of freeing their brethren.

Sadly rifts seems to lack Good Dieties that can plan on a level like Splynncryth is portrayed. They might be personally powerfull but don't seem to be able to grasp the simple things he does. Atleast from what we have seen.

I think The Three in the FoM book as well as the Good Pantheon in SA 2 seem to be among the most benevolent gods. Heck the SA 2 Good Pantheon have apparently almost fallen a few times as they have tried to help their people as far as good gods go that is pretty darn noble.

Still these beings haven't cliqued with the idea of forming an incredible force for good that travels the megaverse. If we saw several worlds owned by a Good AI and he were to challenge Splyncryth now that would be a nice showdown.

As is, we have only what we are given so far in game to to work with and the players to bring those stories to life. Which is a great thing players can bring stories to life.

[Subjugator]

Rune weapons in general are supposed to be rare.
Yes many NPCs have them, but they are NPCs. And they are a tiny number compared to the countless trillions of the Megaverse.

747s are rare, but if you *REALLY* want to get your hands on one, you can.
Emeralds and rubies are rare, but you can also get them.
Billionaires are rare. I've met two.

In Rifts Earth, you're probably looking at one in a thousand PC level people having rune weapons. Those aren't bad odds.

As for the repeated examples using The One Ring from Tolkien - there was only one of those...not millions. The other nineteen rings being destroyed would not have hurt Sauron in the slightest.

So - if you had Splynncryth make a ring/sword/necklace/whatever that was infused with a substantial portion of his power to the point where it actually added another 100K M.D.C. to him when he had it on him, and there was a grand total of ONE of these in the megaverse, and it had to be destroyed in the seat of his power with him a couple of miles away (at best), then yeah, destroying IT should give him a good pounding.

Otherwise, don't even bring it up, because it falls flat on its face.

/Sub

[dark brandon]

We get the point - you don't like the idea of the GM running the game. I'm going to try and ignore the rest of your whining in this post.

Actually, I don't get that from his argument at all. The argument is (and I agree with) a GM cannot and should not change already estabilished rules on thely fly to better suit him. It may be his world, but it's all (everyone thats playing) game.

8. A GM should change the rules willy-nilly whenever he feels like it.

This is actually what I think you two are thinking the argument is about.

Here's what I *AM* saying:

1. Splugorth and beings of similar power cannot be killed in one (or five, or ten) hits with one or more soul drinking rune weapons. The way to kill them with such weapons is by doing enough damage in a quick enough period of time to drain them of MDC before they can stop you or escape.
2. Kevin has verbally agreed with me on number 1. I don't know or care if he'll publish anything on it - I was asking him for my own edification. I know that I was and am right, and that is sufficient for me.

While I do not doubt that you did talk to kevin and I believe you, I've run into the same problems with answers Kevin has told me in person. For example Juicers vs. Agony. While the answer is sufficient for you, unless printed it's not official. Currently, there is nothing to suggest that GOds and AI's are immune to Souldrinking weapons. There was one passage I read (somewhere) that said "Some gods (or AI's)" I think..."may be immune to the power of a soul drinker" or osmething to that effect, but to me that suggests that they are either immune to magic or it will say so in their description.

4. If your GM actually lets you get into toe to toe, life or death combat with Splynncryth and you have any expectation of successfully killing him, you're in a munchkin game. That's fine if that is what you want to do, but please don't act like it isn't.

Power gameing does not = Munchkin.

Power gaming suggests more powerful characters vs. powerful enemies.

Munchkins suggests one sided fights.

[Subjugator]

While I do not doubt that you did talk to kevin and I believe you, I've run into the same problems with answers Kevin has told me in person. For example Juicers vs. Agony. While the answer is sufficient for you, unless printed it's not official. Currently, there is nothing to suggest that GOds and AI's are immune to Souldrinking weapons. There was one passage I read (somewhere) that said "Some gods (or AI's)" I think..."may be immune to the power of a soul drinker" or osmething to that effect, but to me that suggests that they are either immune to magic or it will say so in their description.

As I said, I asked for my own edification.

Power gameing does not = Munchkin.

Power gaming suggests more powerful characters vs. powerful enemies.

Munchkins suggests one sided fights.

You're right...but if any character EVER has the ability to do a 1 hit kill on Splynncryth, it's munchkinism at its finest.

/Sub

[asajosh]

If your unhappy with the rules, I believe Palladium has several methods to address this. The first, and most obvious, is to house rule it. Alternately you can write up some alternate rules for Rune Weapons and Souldrinkers specifically and submit to the Rifter, or post them here.

It's been addressed in a personal conversation, though not in any book.

And as to this whole Souldrinking the Lord of the Deep scneario:
1) Get to him.
2) Get close enought to inflict a cutting strike.
3) Have the Lord Fail his save vs magic.
Sounds about as plausible as say... Mind Wiping a vampire so it forgets to how to feed....

Actually, no. You just have to get one of his tentacles to attack you, you cut it up enough for it to bleed, and then he would die (if they effected him).

Seriously if anyone has played out any scenario where they (or their party or players) have managed to take out ANY canon alien intelligence (not home made ones) with a souldrinking weapon, Post a new thread or PM me. I'd LOVE To read it!! Thanks!

I cry Munchy to anyone who does.

/Sub

Ya ya tentacles, jeez! <digs toe in dirt> even though thats getting HIM to come to YOU, rather then the other way round... hehe
Obviously i don't play in the ocean much... thinking back all my characters have been land lubbers... maybe I outta change that... Am I correct in remembering hat AIs cannot be effected by souldrink or am I making that up?

[Talavar]

I think if KS has chosen to leave it up to individual GMs, then it's up to individual GMs!

Personally, if I were allowing these beings to be menaces in a game I'm running, I'm going to leave resourcefull players an out. KS and crew go out of their way to make these beings uber-powerfull, but they're not unstoppable or indestructable. I wouldn't hesistate to allow players to kill themselves off if they were unprepared for a God or AI/SI, but, on the flipside, I'm not going to leave a well-prepared and resourcefull group of PCs with no real tools because it assaults some munchy status-quo Palladium likes to bake-in. It's canon that Gods can die, as can Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences and everything else, and something's gotta be taking them out!

That being said, I'd probably rule that these beings may be able to escape the Soul Drinker over time, especially if aspects of their essence remained on this plane. However, if they failed too many rolls and are dependant on a rich PPE environment for the majority of their strength, eventually they'd be too weak to return and would be gone for good.

From a cosmic sense, some tools must be effective agains these beings, or they'd never lose. It's canon that they do lose, from time to time. Even beings as powerfull as the Old Ones and the Titans. As no other tools have been presented that could facilitate this, I don't feel like taking this one off the table for players in my games.

~Semi

PS- Of course, if I were playing in Sub's game, I'd just use the all-powerfull Anti Magic cloud to turn those mean old Intelligences to SDC, and then have village children gather around throw rocks at it until it died.

Not being able to kill them in one hit doesn't make them un-killable. What kills things like Splugorth? Armies, small groups of gods/godlings, large gatherings of cosmo-knights, other Splugorth/Alien Intelligences, a couple of ancient dragons - all of these things and more are capable of killing alien intelligences, and have been at least mentioned of doing so. That's what takes out YAAIs, not fluke hits with kinda-rare but not really rune weapons.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

once a force has a good chance of removing the forces on atlantis , I think so of the gods will be more then willing to jump in, remember Zeus and Ares are waiting for the right moment to challenge them,and getting Hecate to mess with the massive space fleet by drop the hundred handed on them and letting them playing with the Splugorth minions and I'm sure Odin and the pantheons would be more then helpful to lend some "help" against an Splugorth , once the reinforcements are no longer in play and who knows maybe a god enlisted some of the forces in the megaverse to help.

Sure that massive space fleet might be a threat but drop the hundred-handed in there , be like a lego star destroyer going up against an 3 yr old on a sugar high

[Subjugator]

I think if KS has chosen to leave it up to individual GMs, then it's up to individual GMs!

Absolutely 100% true.

I mean, ultimately, *everything* is up to the GMs. The rules are there as a guideline. They didn't come from a burning bush and they weren't chiseled into stone tablets and stored in the Ark.

Personally, if I were allowing these beings to be menaces in a game I'm running, I'm going to leave resourcefull players an out. KS and crew go out of their way to make these beings uber-powerfull, but they're not unstoppable or indestructable. I wouldn't hesistate to allow players to kill themselves off if they were unprepared for a God or AI/SI, but, on the flipside, I'm not going to leave a well-prepared and resourcefull group of PCs with no real tools because it assaults some munchy status-quo Palladium likes to bake-in. It's canon that Gods can die, as can Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences and everything else, and something's gotta be taking them out!

I agree that they can be taken out. I'm just saying it's not going to happen in one hit from a sword.

That being said, I'd probably rule that these beings may be able to escape the Soul Drinker over time, especially if aspects of their essence remained on this plane. However, if they failed too many rolls and are dependant on a rich PPE environment for the majority of their strength, eventually they'd be too weak to return and would be gone for good.

From a cosmic sense, some tools must be effective agains these beings, or they'd never lose. It's canon that they do lose, from time to time. Even beings as powerfull as the Old Ones and the Titans. As no other tools have been presented that could facilitate this, I don't feel like taking this one off the table for players in my games.

~Semi

PS- Of course, if I were playing in Sub's game, I'd just use the all-powerfull Anti Magic cloud to turn those mean old Intelligences to SDC, and then have village children gather around throw rocks at it until it died.

I forgot to ask him about that last idea. I wonder what spells they're immune to?

/Sub

[dark brandon]

Not being able to kill them in one hit doesn't make them un-killable. What kills things like Splugorth? Armies, small groups of gods/godlings, large gatherings of cosmo-knights, other Splugorth/Alien Intelligences, a couple of ancient dragons - all of these things and more are capable of killing alien intelligences, and have been at least mentioned of doing so. That's what takes out YAAIs, not fluke hits with kinda-rare but not really rune weapons.

What you concider fluke I concider cinimatic.

[Carindel]

Just to revive this...

Subjugator - when did a Lizard Mage come out of the Other Dimension?

N.B. Splynncryth has +9 to save vs. magic, giving him an 80% chance to resist the Soul Drinker's attack. He also has +8 to parry. This puts the odds of his preventing a Soul Drinker's attack in any given circumstance at well over 90% (for parity's sake, ignoring both the potential strike bonuses of a wielder and the vast array of protective magics SplynnC has at his disposal) Them's pretty good odds.

Has anyone considered Nxla, whom even the Splugorth are said to fear? Nxla unleashed has the power to release 10,000 essence fragments every day. That will swell his ranks or decimate Splynncryth's relatively quickly.