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Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:54 pm**

nameneeded wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Chi is Chi. PPE is PPE. There is a spell called Convert Chi to PPE, and vise versa. Obviously, they are not the same.

We ahve pointed this out but Killer comments that BtS states Chi and PPE are the same.

Not to nit pick, but Killer Cyborg said Ninjas & Superspies, not BtS.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:02 pm**

lather wrote:There are several methods listed for tapping into PPE from others. Nowhere does it say tapping into PPE from others is evil whatsoever.

Agreed.

The question for the character is not if he will tap into the PPE, but whether he will participate in the evil ceremonial magic. The goal of the blood sacrifice is to use an evil method to enable the evil mage to exploit a naturally occurring phenomenon.

A good or selfish character does not tap into this natural phenomenon not because tapping into it is evil, but, rather, because the method to produce this natural phenomenon is evil. They have qualms about murder, not tapping into PPE.

Agreed, as far as I can tell.

The "hideous act of evil" is the murder of the victim.

No.
You can see from the situation with animals that killing them is ONLY wrong for PPE (or, possibly, for entertainment).
It's not the "murder" of the animal that is the evil act.

Good, selfish, and evil characters have no qualms with tapping PPE. Good and selfish characters do have qualms with murder, however.

Good, selfish, and evil characters have no qualms about tapping PPE, but the only time that you can take ALL of a person's PPE is when you kill them for it.

Now animals.
The coverage by the text is far less complete and far more vague than with humans. The inconsistency is not addressed by the rules. There is no sufficient explanation why a selfish aligned character can participate in evil ceremonial magic when the victim is an animal and not become evil. So we are left to find an explanation on our own. Whatever explanation we come up with lacks conclusive support in the text - the text contradicts itself.

Because killing an animal is not an inherently evil act.

One explanation is that PPE is the significant factor.

Could there be another explanation for blood sacrifice of animals where PPE is not the significant factor? Probably.

PPE does not care if it is coursing through a dog or a king. PPE does not care if you sacrifice an animal or a human. It is just PPE. It does not judge. It is cosmic energy that binds things together; it has no concept of anything. People, on the other hand, judge. Good alignments judge blood sacrifice of animals in such a way that they will not participate in it. Selfish and evil characters judge differently.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

It is unreasonable for you to reject my points without any real reason.
Is it possible that I'm wrong?
I suppose.
But nobody has yet come up with any reason to believe that I am.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:03 pm**

nameneeded wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Right.
But there's nothing to indicate that attempted sacrifice would result in an alignment drop.

And there is also nothing saying that attempted murder would cause an alinement drop.

I know.
Interesting, isn't it?

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:03 pm**

lather wrote:
nameneeded wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Chi is Chi. PPE is PPE. There is a spell called Convert Chi to PPE, and vise versa. Obviously, they are not the same.

We ahve pointed this out but Killer comments that BtS states Chi and PPE are the same.
Not to nit pick, but Killer Cyborg said Ninjas & Superspies, not BtS.

No, I said BtS.

Or, at least, I meant to.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:15 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:I keep pointing out that PPE is the only difference between killing an animal for PPE and killing an animal for any other reason.
Since killing an animal for any other reason (other than just for fun, perhaps) is not evil, then the PPE is the factor.

You keep telling me that PPE is the only difference. The BtS book never says this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The book is so impossibly contradicting on blood sacrifice of animals as to be worthless support for any position - in my opinion. After all, the book says it is evil yet non-evil characters can do it without becoming evil. I do not understand how any position can claim superiority over another based on this monumental contradiction.

You talking about Dragons & Gods?
I'll look that book over when I get home.

What page does it talk about it on?

I'm still on BtS. The original context of our discussion of blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice is on page 94 in BtS-1.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Regarding humans. Good and selfish aligned characters go to evil if they murder. Period. End of discussion. Where is PPE anywhere in that? It's not. I fail to see how that's being unreasonable.

Because you're not looking at the context.
Yes, murder is wrong.
Murdering a person for PPE is wrong.
Murdering a person to eat them is wrong.
Because murder is wrong.

BUT killing an animal is not murder.
Killing an animal to eat it is NOT wrong.
Killing an animal for PPE is wrong.
THAT is where the PPE comes in, and as soon as draining the PPE is a factor, then suddenly a normally non-evil action becomes an evil action.

I was speaking humans. Thus the "Regarding humans" bit. PPE is not a factor in murder.

Now back to animals. The book is too much contradictory. A non-evil aligned character can participate in blood sacrifice of an animal and not get an evil alignment. Yet blood sacrifice is evil. That contradiction is impossible to overcome. How can either of us claim the other is being unreasonable? Both are reasonable conclusions.

There is a difference between blood sacrificing a human and an animal. That much is clear. The difference is not clear, however. From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:16 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
nameneeded wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Chi is Chi. PPE is PPE. There is a spell called Convert Chi to PPE, and vise versa. Obviously, they are not the same.

We ahve pointed this out but Killer comments that BtS states Chi and PPE are the same.
Not to nit pick, but Killer Cyborg said Ninjas & Superspies, not BtS.

No, I said BtS.

Or, at least, I meant to.

Whoa

Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:37 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The "hideous act of evil" is the murder of the victim.

No.
You can see from the situation with animals that killing them is ONLY wrong for PPE (or, possibly, for entertainment).
It's not the "murder" of the animal that is the evil act.

Yes. It is the murder of human being that is evil. Sacrificing human victim is the topic at this point in the paragraph.

I can see from the situation with animals under the heading Drawing P.P.E. From Others that it makes sense only to talk about drawing PPE from others. It does not make sense to talk about sacrifice in another context here.

Here's the contradiction. Blood sacrifice is evil ceremonial magic. But the rules go on to say non-evil aligned characters can participate in evil ceremonial magic. It's a contradiction that only makes things impossible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Good, selfish, and evil characters have no qualms with tapping PPE. Good and selfish characters do have qualms with murder, however.

Good, selfish, and evil characters have no qualms about tapping PPE, but the only time that you can take ALL of a person's PPE is when you kill them for it.

I fail to see the relevance.
They're dead. They're certainly not going to object.
The question is how did they die.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
One explanation is that PPE is the significant factor.

Could there be another explanation for blood sacrifice of animals where PPE is not the significant factor? Probably.

PPE does not care if it is coursing through a dog or a king. PPE does not care if you sacrifice an animal or a human. It is just PPE. It does not judge. It is cosmic energy that binds things together; it has no concept of anything. People, on the other hand, judge. Good alignments judge blood sacrifice of animals in such a way that they will not participate in it. Selfish and evil characters judge differently.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

It is unreasonable for you to reject my points without any real reason.
Is it possible that I'm wrong?
I suppose.
But nobody has yet come up with any reason to believe that I am.

I have said you are being reasonable. I have not rejected anything you have said without reason. And I am not trying to come up with a reason saying you're wrong.
Nobody has yet come up with any reason to believe that I am wrong. That is not what I am after. I am after a reason why I am being unreasonable.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:40 pm**

DiceMan wrote:Also, I like how it's "murder" for a peron and only "killing" for an animal. Even though they mean the same thing. Unless someone's on trial.

You've entered a world where ice is sometimes not water.
It's murky, at best.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:35 pm**

DiceMan wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Because you're not looking at the context.
Yes, murder is wrong.
Murdering a person for PPE is wrong.
Murdering a person to eat them is wrong.
Because murder is wrong.

Okay, agree on all points (or at least our culture does and I'm forced to).

Killer Cyborg wrote:BUT killing an animal is not murder.
Killing an animal to eat it is NOT wrong.
Killing an animal for PPE is wrong.THAT is where the PPE comes in, and as soon as draining the PPE is a factor, then suddenly a normally non-evil action becomes an evil action.

Here is where I'm confused. How is killing an animal for meat not wrong but killing it for PPE wrong. Is it because that's what it says in one particular spot in one particular Palladium book?

Yes.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:36 pm**

lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:40 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I keep pointing out that PPE is the only difference between killing an animal for PPE and killing an animal for any other reason.
Since killing an animal for any other reason (other than just for fun, perhaps) is not evil, then the PPE is the factor.
You keep telling me that PPE is the only difference. The BtS book never says this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The book is so impossibly contradicting on blood sacrifice of animals as to be worthless support for any position - in my opinion. After all, the book says it is evil yet non-evil characters can do it without becoming evil. I do not understand how any position can claim superiority over another based on this monumental contradiction.

You talking about Dragons & Gods?
I'll look that book over when I get home.

What page does it talk about it on?
I'm still on BtS. The original context of our discussion of blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice is on page 94 in BtS-1.

Okay, then what are you talking about?
The fact that Selfish characters can do it without becomming evil?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Regarding humans. Good and selfish aligned characters go to evil if they murder. Period. End of discussion. Where is PPE anywhere in that? It's not. I fail to see how that's being unreasonable.

Because you're not looking at the context.
Yes, murder is wrong.
Murdering a person for PPE is wrong.
Murdering a person to eat them is wrong.
Because murder is wrong.

BUT killing an animal is not murder.
Killing an animal to eat it is NOT wrong.
Killing an animal for PPE is wrong.
THAT is where the PPE comes in, and as soon as draining the PPE is a factor, then suddenly a normally non-evil action becomes an evil action.

I was speaking humans. Thus the "Regarding humans" bit.

I was pointing out that you're looking at the big picture.
Thus the "you're not looking at the context" part.

PPE is not a factor in murder.

Agreed.
But irrelevent.

Now back to animals. The book is too much contradictory. A non-evil aligned character can participate in blood sacrifice of an animal and not get an evil alignment. Yet blood sacrifice is evil. That contradiction is impossible to overcome.

Where does it say that a Good or Selfish person instantly becomes evil for performing one evil act?

How can either of us claim the other is being unreasonable? Both are reasonable conclusions.

There is a difference between blood sacrificing a human and an animal. That much is clear. The difference is not clear, however.

The difference is pretty clear; animals are not as important as human beings.

From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

And you base that view on...?

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:42 pm**

nameneeded wrote:The sacrificing in Aco & the Juggernaut talks about how it is usally money and small animals(in rifts small animals have les than 1 point of PPE). Human sacrifice is sactioned but most churches don't have the resources to do it and even then its elderly people looking to end their lives. (euthanasia)

That said if the player who is a follower of this religion is killing people under the name of this church to gather PPE then I would rule he is going against the doctrine of the church. The church doesn't sacrifice things to gain power it does so to show respect and gain favour to thier God. They are not out sacrificing heritics or criminals.

I take this as evidence that it is not inherently evil to sacrifice (animals or willing people) to a God.
Which means that sacrifice is not inherently evil; only blood sacrifice for PPE.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:43 pm**

DiceMan wrote:However, my point is just to establish that under the Palladium game rules "blood sacrifice" is NOT evil in all settings. It's "evil" in Beyond the Supernatural because you need "bad guys" for the "good guy" PCs to chase about and stop.
It's not "evil" in Fantasy, because it's all a matter of persective and point of view.

In the context of BtS, "blood sacrifice" is NOT inclusive of religious sacrifice to a God.
It only covers sacrificing a person or animal in order to drain their PPE.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:49 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.

I like.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:04 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:I keep pointing out that PPE is the only difference between killing an animal for PPE and killing an animal for any other reason.
Since killing an animal for any other reason (other than just for fun, perhaps) is not evil, then the PPE is the factor.
You keep telling me that PPE is the only difference. The BtS book never says this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The book is so impossibly contradicting on blood sacrifice of animals as to be worthless support for any position - in my opinion. After all, the book says it is evil yet non-evil characters can do it without becoming evil. I do not understand how any position can claim superiority over another based on this monumental contradiction.

You talking about Dragons & Gods?
I'll look that book over when I get home.

What page does it talk about it on?
I'm still on BtS. The original context of our discussion of blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice is on page 94 in BtS-1.

Okay, then what are you talking about?
The fact that Selfish characters can do it without becomming evil?

The fact that blood sacrifice is described as an evil ceremonial magic that makes non-evil participants evil, yet later it switches back and says non-evil can participate without becoming evil. This contradiction is never explained.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Now back to animals. The book is too much contradictory. A non-evil aligned character can participate in blood sacrifice of an animal and not get an evil alignment. Yet blood sacrifice is evil. That contradiction is impossible to overcome.

Where does it say that a Good or Selfish person instantly becomes evil for performing one evil act?

The line says if they participate in any way with blood sacrifice (of humans), an evil act, they become evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
How can either of us claim the other is being unreasonable? Both are reasonable conclusions.

There is a difference between blood sacrificing a human and an animal. That much is clear. The difference is not clear, however.

The difference is pretty clear; animals are not as important as human beings.

Right. The details of the difference is not clear. Which means it might not be PPE. To PPE there is no difference between an animal or a person; there is no importance of anything to PPE. PPE has no concepts of anything. It's just energy.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

And you base that view on...?

...the description of PPE.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:33 pm**

lather wrote:The fact that blood sacrifice is described as an evil ceremonial magic that makes non-evil participants evil, yet later it switches back and says non-evil can participate without becoming evil. This contradiction is never explained.

Quote the passage or passages that you're talking about.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Now back to animals. The book is too much contradictory. A non-evil aligned character can participate in blood sacrifice of an animal and not get an evil alignment. Yet blood sacrifice is evil. That contradiction is impossible to overcome.

Where does it say that a Good or Selfish person instantly becomes evil for performing one evil act?

The line says if they participate in any way with blood sacrifice (of humans), an evil act, they become evil.[/quote]

The book is not contradictory. It says:
-Performing a blood sacrifice with a human being will turn you evil.
-Principled and Scrupulous characters will not even perform a blood sacrifice on animals.

This is not contradictory.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The difference is pretty clear; animals are not as important as human beings.

Right. The details of the difference is not clear. Which means it might not be PPE. To PPE there is no difference between an animal or a person; there is no importance of anything to PPE. PPE has no concepts of anything. It's just energy.

-I don't know of any places in the book that mention whether or not PPE has concepts of anything.
-I don't see how that is supposed to matter either way.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

And you base that view on...?
...the description of PPE.

Quote the passages.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:36 pm**

nameneeded wrote:But we all agree on Sacrificing/ murdering for the targets PPE is EVIL.

The point that has yet to be address properly is if its evil to collect the PPE from a target that wasn't murdered/ sacrified. The books say the PPE of a living creature is doubled at point of death.

That is actually what we are discussing.

Because my point has been that the reason why killing for PPE is evil (or, at least, one of the reasons) is that draining the PPE from a dying or dead person is in of itself an evil act.
Which is why Good aligned characters will not even do this to animals.

Can a mage even collect the doubled PPE from a person he has not killed?

I would say so, but only if they were prepared to absorb the death energy.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:06 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.
I like.

The first place is where they mention Chi specifically, the rest just go along with the theme.

p. 49

Yet PPE is not really an enigma. It is a natural, physical and mental essense that links and binds all life. It is as natural and fundamental as sight, but somewhere along man's development, we forgot how to tap into that natural resource. Perhaps it was the famed, Oriental masters of Zen and mystics, or their Hindu cousins, who first recognized and understood the potential of psychic energy. they learned to merge the mind with the body; to direct and focus the inner self, "Chi", as an athlete might train and build his body. Once the inner self was conquered, it could be directed in many ways; so it is that we have the legendary Zen masters, fighting monks, martial arts masters, and mystics, each with a different focus and ability.
The key to unlocking PPE is focus....

...The ancient Hindu or Oriental masters, who once seemed to have unlocked the secretes of the mind are gone. Their secrets lost, blurred and muddied by the passing of time. Consequently, most psychics develop their abilities independent of each other, without a teacher to guide them.

p. 93

To utilize magic the character must learn mental disciplines akin to Zen or Oriental meditation.

P. 128

The Chinese may have been the first to recognize "the power" and formulated a quasi-scientific philosophy of principles around it.

(Later on the same page there is a lengthy discussion of Feng Shui, and how it relates to Ley Lines)

P. 130 (discussing ley lines)

The ancient Chinese geomancers recognized these lines of power and called them "Dragon Paths."

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:04 am**

Yes, though I don't agree with it ends justify the means is aberrant alignment, which is evil.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:54 am**

lather wrote:There are several methods listed for tapping into PPE from others. Nowhere does it say tapping into PPE from others is evil whatsoever.

The question for the character is not if he will tap into the PPE, but whether he will participate in the evil ceremonial magic. The goal of the blood sacrifice is to use an evil method to enable the evil mage to exploit a naturally occurring phenomenon.

A good or selfish character does not tap into this natural phenomenon not because tapping into it is evil, but, rather, because the method to produce this natural phenomenon is evil. They have qualms about murder, not tapping into PPE.

The "hideous act of evil" is the murder of the victim. A good or selfish character cannot get beyond this point. Tapping into PPE or not is not the obstacle to good and selfish characters; it's the murder. Evil characters have no qualms about the murder, and so have no obstacles preventing them to exploit a natural occurrance brought about by murder.

Blood sacrifice falls into the category of evil ceremonial magic. Why? Because it involves an evil act: murder. Nowhere is tapping into PPE a contributing factor to the evilness of blood sacrifice. All the other methods of tapping into PPE are not evil because they do not involve hideous acts of evil.

Good, selfish, and evil characters have no qualms with tapping PPE. Good and selfish characters do have qualms with murder, however.

Now animals.
The coverage by the text is far less complete and far more vague than with humans. The inconsistency is not addressed by the rules. There is no sufficient explanation why a selfish aligned character can participate in evil ceremonial magic when the victim is an animal and not become evil. So we are left to find an explanation on our own. Whatever explanation we come up with lacks conclusive support in the text - the text contradicts itself.

One explanation is that PPE is the significant factor.

Could there be another explanation for blood sacrifice of animals where PPE is not the significant factor? Probably.

PPE does not care if it is coursing through a dog or a king. PPE does not care if you sacrifice an animal or a human. It is just PPE. It does not judge. It is cosmic energy that binds things together; it has no concept of anything. People, on the other hand, judge. Good alignments judge blood sacrifice of animals in such a way that they will not participate in it. Selfish and evil characters judge differently.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Once again, well laid-out, logical points.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:03 am**

nameneeded wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
nameneeded wrote:But we all agree on Sacrificing/ murdering for the targets PPE is EVIL.

The point that has yet to be address properly is if its evil to collect the PPE from a target that wasn't murdered/ sacrified. The books say the PPE of a living creature is doubled at point of death.

That is actually what we are discussing.

Because my point has been that the reason why killing for PPE is evil (or, at least, one of the reasons) is that draining the PPE from a dying or dead person is in of itself an evil act.
Which is why Good aligned characters will not even do this to animals.

Can a mage even collect the doubled PPE from a person he has not killed?

I would say so, but only if they were prepared to absorb the death energy.

question posed and being debated (not very clearly I guess) has NOTHING to do with sacrifice!

Situation. You are attacked by 2 Vampires in the street. Your silver Vibro sword lopes off ones head killing him. Can you as a PPE Practioner grab his PPE to cast a spell against the other Vampire? Is that an evil act? Your not sacrificing anyone. your defending yourself.

The situation is NOT I am a good guy sacrificing evil things to gain power. This whole sacrificing debate got started somewhere and has led to this mess of what we are debating.

Suddenly we are debating if Sacrifing is Evil or is it only evil if you take the victums PPE.

Maybe the answer lies in the fact its not evil to take PPE as long as you don't kill them so you can take all of it since sacrificing seems to be the only way to do so.

So is the situation example evil?

Seriously, are you new to the conversation or something?
What have I been saying all along?

All the evidence points towards taking the doubled PPE from a death being evil.
It doesn't matter whether you kill them or not.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:06 am**

Alejandro wrote:The sacrifice portion seems to have started from the very beginning of the thread.

Using the double PPE granted at anything's death is NOT evil. Killing something explicitly for the purpose of getting that PPE IS. Good characters won't kill something sheerly for the purpose of taking the double PPE.

That begs the question:
Why is it NOT evil to kill a goat for food, clothing, etc.
Or, presumably, even to kill a deer for fun.
BUT it IS evil to kill an animal for PPE?

If not that the act of taking the PPE itself will taint you?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:55 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:The fact that blood sacrifice is described as an evil ceremonial magic that makes non-evil participants evil, yet later it switches back and says non-evil can participate without becoming evil. This contradiction is never explained.

Quote the passage or passages that you're talking about.

Page 94 of BtS-1 defines blood sacrifice as evil ceremonial magic; sacrifice requires a victim. It is the "classic 'sacrifice a virgin'".

Blood sacrifice requires a victim as the key component for evil ceremonial magic. Blood sacrifice is evil ceremonial magic. Blood sacrifice is evil. Participation in any way makes the character instantly evil.
Under the animals section - always unwilling victims - it says the only method is "to kill it; blood sacrifice".
Good and selfish aligned characters cannot participate in any way in blood sacrifice.
The intention of blood sacrifice is to enable drawing PPE. That is why good and selfish aligned characters cannot.

I have edited the above paragraph. The book does not contradict itself. My mistake. But it actually confirms even more - to me - that intention killing for rather than drawing PPE is the act of evil.

There is still room for an explanation besides tapping into the PPE. My point all along.
The significant factor might not be PPE. It might be the value of life.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The book is not contradictory. It says:
-Performing a blood sacrifice with a human being will turn you evil.
-Principled and Scrupulous characters will not even perform a blood sacrifice on animals.

This is not contradictory.

Agreed.
But that is not what I said was the contradiction.

And, actually the book says principled and scrupulous aligned characters will not even partake in sacrifice of animals, not only blood sacrifice of animals.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:The difference is pretty clear; animals are not as important as human beings.

Right. The details of the difference is not clear. Which means it might not be PPE. To PPE there is no difference between an animal or a person; there is no importance of anything to PPE. PPE has no concepts of anything. It's just energy.

-I don't know of any places in the book that mention whether or not PPE has concepts of anything.
-I don't see how that is supposed to matter either way.

- It talks about PPE being like natural gas. It talks about PPE being energy (after all the E in PPE stands for energy). Natural gas presumably has no concept of anything. If PPE is like natural gas, then presumably PPE has no concept of anything.
- Because you insist that the significant factor is PPE. I am suggesting there might be something else as the significant factor.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

And you base that view on...?
...the description of PPE.

Quote the passages.

Page 130 of BtS-1:

Magic is the utilization of potential psychic energy (P.P.E.) in its purest form.

A power grid of natural energy that waves throughout sapce and, perhaps, time and the multiverse.

A grid work of energy that binds the earth to the universe in ways we do not yet understand, and to other words, other dimensions of reality.

Because man is intrinsically linked to the matrix he can draw upon its energy.

Sacrifice, blood or otherwise, is one thing.
PPE is another thing.
What makes sacrifice evil or not evil is not PPE.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:56 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.
I like.

The first place is where they mention Chi specifically, the rest just go along with the theme.

<snip>

Thanks for the quotes. Very thorough.
I do not see where it says Chi is PPE though.
Once again, the text speaks of PPE as a "natural resource" that humans can tap into.
Chi is inner self and focus, the path that enables humans to tap into PPE, a natural resource that binds everything together.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:58 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alejandro wrote:The sacrifice portion seems to have started from the very beginning of the thread.

Using the double PPE granted at anything's death is NOT evil. Killing something explicitly for the purpose of getting that PPE IS. Good characters won't kill something sheerly for the purpose of taking the double PPE.

That begs the question:
Why is it NOT evil to kill a goat for food, clothing, etc.
Or, presumably, even to kill a deer for fun.
BUT it IS evil to kill an animal for PPE?

If not that the act of taking the PPE itself will taint you?

Intention. The question of why it is evil is answered before the actual act of drawing the PPE.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:01 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:All the evidence points towards taking the doubled PPE from a death being evil.
It doesn't matter whether you kill them or not.

Sometimes, such as participation in any way in blood sacrifice (i.e., showing up).
Sometimes it matters. If you kill with the intention of tapping into the PPE then you have done something evil. What does not matter is if you actually tap into the PPE.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:44 pm**

Well, I agree I would allow them to do it, but it is a evil action. Based on the ends justify the means in aberrant alignment. Personally I think most characters when it comes down to it become either aberrant or archist when it gets live gets hard. THe whole tolkeen series we seen people become evil because of the war.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:17 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.
I like.

The first place is where they mention Chi specifically, the rest just go along with the theme.

<snip>
Thanks for the quotes. Very thorough.
I do not see where it says Chi is PPE though.
Once again, the text speaks of PPE as a "natural resource" that humans can tap into.
Chi is inner self and focus, the path that enables humans to tap into PPE, a natural resource that binds everything together.

No, Chi is a natural energy that flows through the Earth and through every living thing.
Sound familiar?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:31 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:The fact that blood sacrifice is described as an evil ceremonial magic that makes non-evil participants evil, yet later it switches back and says non-evil can participate without becoming evil. This contradiction is never explained.

Quote the passage or passages that you're talking about.
Page 94 of BtS-1 defines blood sacrifice as evil ceremonial magic; sacrifice requires a victim. It is the "classic 'sacrifice a virgin'".

No, it does not define blood sacrifice as evil ceremonial magic.
It says:
-"Sacrificial victims are seldom used in any spell magic, but may be a key component for evil ceremonial magic."
-"In the foulest ceremonial magic, the crescendo is the murder of the sacrificial victim, enabling the diabolical mage to tap the dying victim's doubled PPE..."

It's not a ritual in of itself, it's just used in rituals by evil people.

The intention of blood sacrifice is to enable drawing PPE. That is why good and selfish aligned characters cannot.

???
That only makes sense if drawing the PPE is evil, which I know you don't believe.

I have edited the above paragraph. The book does not contradict itself. My mistake. But it actually confirms even more - to me - that intention killing for rather than drawing PPE is the act of evil.

Why would the intention of killing for the doubled PPE be evil, if the drawing of that PPE is not?

There is still room for an explanation besides tapping into the PPE. My point all along.
The significant factor might not be PPE. It might be the value of life.

But animal life has no real value in the game.
No alignment bans killing animals.
There is no alignment restriction on the hunting skill.

And, actually the book says principled and scrupulous aligned characters will not even partake in sacrifice of animals, not only blood sacrifice of animals.

In the context of the passage, which is entirely devoted to discussing killing people for PPE, I think it's clear that this is the sort of sacrifice that they're talking about, not just sacrificing to a God.
Especially combined with the D&G passages indicating that religious sacrifice is acceptable.

Killer Cyborg wrote:-I don't know of any places in the book that mention whether or not PPE has concepts of anything.
-I don't see how that is supposed to matter either way.

- It talks about PPE being like natural gas. It talks about PPE being energy (after all the E in PPE stands for energy). Natural gas presumably has no concept of anything. If PPE is like natural gas, then presumably PPE has no concept of anything.

It compares PPE and natural gas in that both are natural resources that occur in certain areas.
It's not saying that PPE is natural gas.
PPE doesn't smell funny.
PPE isn't flammable.
PPE isn't a fossil fuel.
They're not the same thing.

Just because the book compares PPE and natural gas in one way does NOT mean that they are comparable in other ways.
So try again.

- Because you insist that the significant factor is PPE. I am suggesting there might be something else as the significant factor.

You have not yet come up with any alternative that makes sense.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
From my point of view, PPE does not matter - it's just glue of the cosmos.

And you base that view on...?
...the description of PPE.

Quote the passages.
Page 130 of BtS-1:
Magic is the utilization of potential psychic energy (P.P.E.) in its purest form.
A power grid of natural energy that waves throughout sapce and, perhaps, time and the multiverse.
A grid work of energy that binds the earth to the universe in ways we do not yet understand, and to other words, other dimensions of reality.
Because man is intrinsically linked to the matrix he can draw upon its energy.

Sacrifice, blood or otherwise, is one thing.
PPE is another thing.

What part of that says to you that PPE doesn't matter?
That it is JUST the glue of the cosmos and plays no role in morality?

What makes sacrifice evil or not evil is not PPE.

You keep saying that, but repetition does not create truth.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:32 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alejandro wrote:The sacrifice portion seems to have started from the very beginning of the thread.

Using the double PPE granted at anything's death is NOT evil. Killing something explicitly for the purpose of getting that PPE IS. Good characters won't kill something sheerly for the purpose of taking the double PPE.

That begs the question:
Why is it NOT evil to kill a goat for food, clothing, etc.
Or, presumably, even to kill a deer for fun.
BUT it IS evil to kill an animal for PPE?

If not that the act of taking the PPE itself will taint you?

Intention. The question of why it is evil is answered before the actual act of drawing the PPE.

If drawing the PPE is not evil, then why is intention to draw the PPE evil?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:32 pm**

mAd eAgle wrote:p.8 Rifts China 2:

Chi: In Rifts we usually think of ISP (Inner Strength Points) as being totally internal and mental, as something only measured by those characters with Psionics. In China it has always been felt that small amounts of positive and negative energy (Chi/ISP) also flow through the environment, not just along Dragon lines (ley lines), but along streams and rivers, through mountains and grottoes, and even,in tiny quantities, through ordinary houses and gardens. So, in one way Chi is just another way of saying ISP, but Chi should also be thought of as spiritual energy, flowing everywhere, and especially as the force behind Mystical Martial Arts Powers.

Just thought I'd clear up the matter of what Chi was according to the newest CANON.

Yeah, they've gone back and forth on this.

In BtS, it's not ISP unless it's inside a psychic.

p. 93
"The potential psychic energy, which is the essence of magic, is a natural energy that the psychic inadvertantly draws on and changes into a permanent psychic energy base (ISP)."

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:33 pm**

lather wrote:If you kill with the intention of tapping into the PPE then you have done something evil. What does not matter is if you actually tap into the PPE.

You keep making that claim, but you haven't supported it.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:35 pm**

nameneeded wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Because you're not looking at the context.
Yes, murder is wrong.
Murdering a person for PPE is wrong.
Murdering a person to eat them is wrong.
Because murder is wrong.

BUT killing an animal is not murder.
Killing an animal to eat it is NOT wrong.
Killing an animal for PPE is wrong.
THAT is where the PPE comes in, and as soon as draining the PPE is a factor, then suddenly a normally non-evil action becomes an evil action.

This is the crux of your argument is it not?

Yes.

(Where did you get that anyway?)

BtS.

That in this one instance it shows an example of a situation where a normally non-evil act has become an evil one once you factor in the taking of PPE.

Exactly.

But to say killing an animal for any reason is not wrong is a cultural viewpoint.

Not in the context of this discussion.
In this discussion, we are talking about how things work in the game world, and they are spelled out.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:38 pm**

Alejandro wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alejandro wrote:The sacrifice portion seems to have started from the very beginning of the thread.

Using the double PPE granted at anything's death is NOT evil. Killing something explicitly for the purpose of getting that PPE IS. Good characters won't kill something sheerly for the purpose of taking the double PPE.

That begs the question:
Why is it NOT evil to kill a goat for food, clothing, etc.
Or, presumably, even to kill a deer for fun.
BUT it IS evil to kill an animal for PPE?

If not that the act of taking the PPE itself will taint you?

Here's the kicker about that though. Killing for food and clothing is a necessity of basic survival. However, as so very few creatures need PPE as a sustenance, it becomes evil for you're killing something not because you need it, but because you want it. Big difference there. Psi-Stalkers don't have to kill or even hurt, but they often do almost identical to how Southeast Asian cultures torture dogs before killing them as they believe it enhances the flavor.

When you kill for something you need, that's just a natural act in the chain of life. When you kill just for an object of desire (be it gold, women, or PPE) then you've crossed the line into evil.

Thank you for making a good argument. :ok:

But...
-Killing for food is not always a necessity.
-People hunt for fun, not just for food and clothing.

People kill animals for many reasons, and the only one that is described as being evil is when you kill an animal and drain off the PPE.
Swatting a fly is not evil.
Unless you drain it's PPE when you kill it, then suddenly it's an evil act.

If not because of the act of draining that PPE, then why?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:55 pm**

nameneeded wrote:Well Killer I thank you for the fun but me bored now. So I leave you all with this.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Here's the thing:
If the lives of you and your buddies are all on the line, would your character be willing to commit an evil act in order to save all of your lives?

It depends on how you play it.
Generally the idea is that sucking the PPE from a death takes a bit of prep work, and isn't something you can do in battle anyway.
But if you're killing the demons anyway, then I don't think that it would be specifically evil to take the PPE from them at that moment.
(Although I could certainly make an argument that it would be evil under any circumstances, and a very good one.)

On the other hand, capturing a demon, tying him down, and ritually killing him with a dagger in order to get the PPE would be evil.

Its neat how you really agree with us all but just wanted to "stir the pot" and have a fun debate.

Actually, I've made such a good argument that now I myself am unsure. :ok:

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:09 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:Whoa
Chi is mentioned anywhere in BtS? Where?

In one of the sections that describes what PPE is.
I'll look for a page number when I get home, if you like.
I like.

The first place is where they mention Chi specifically, the rest just go along with the theme.

<snip>
Thanks for the quotes. Very thorough.
I do not see where it says Chi is PPE though.
Once again, the text speaks of PPE as a "natural resource" that humans can tap into.
Chi is inner self and focus, the path that enables humans to tap into PPE, a natural resource that binds everything together.

No, Chi is a natural energy that flows through the Earth and through every living thing.
Sound familiar?

It does not sound familiar.

"they learned to merge the mind with the body; to direct and focus the inner self, 'Chi'"

Chi is described as the inner self not natural energy binding the universe together.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:12 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:The fact that blood sacrifice is described as an evil ceremonial magic that makes non-evil participants evil, yet later it switches back and says non-evil can participate without becoming evil. This contradiction is never explained.

Quote the passage or passages that you're talking about.
Page 94 of BtS-1 defines blood sacrifice as evil ceremonial magic; sacrifice requires a victim. It is the "classic 'sacrifice a virgin'".

No, it does not define blood sacrifice as evil ceremonial magic.
It says:
-"Sacrificial victims are seldom used in any spell magic, but may be a key component for evil ceremonial magic."
-"In the foulest ceremonial magic, the crescendo is the murder of the sacrificial victim, enabling the diabolical mage to tap the dying victim's doubled PPE..."

It's not a ritual in of itself, it's just used in rituals by evil people.

You require a sacrificial victim to perform a blood sacrifice. The sacrificial victim is a key component of evil ceremonial magic in this case. Evil ceremonial magic is happening. The book even tells me to go read about ceremonial magic. But it never tells me blood sacrifice is not evil ceremonial magic. Only you have.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The intention of blood sacrifice is to enable drawing PPE. That is why good and selfish aligned characters cannot.

???
That only makes sense if drawing the PPE is evil, which I know you don't believe.

It makes sense. Good and selfish characters cannot participate in blood sacrifice because blood sacrifice is evil, not because drawing PPE is evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I have edited the above paragraph. The book does not contradict itself. My mistake. But it actually confirms even more - to me - that intention killing for rather than drawing PPE is the act of evil.

Why would the intention of killing for the doubled PPE be evil, if the drawing of that PPE is not?

Because PPE is naturally occurring energy. Using evil ceremonial magic to enable yourself to exploit this naturally occurring energy is what makes it evil. Blood sacrifice is evil ceremonial magic. If we have no victim to sacrifice, there can be no sacrifice. In the case of blood sacrifice, the victim is a key component in evil ceremonial magic. The intention of killing for doubled PPE is evil because the book says it is evil. Whether human or animal, one must perform blood sacrifice before one can draw PPE. Blood sacrifice is evil. Drawing PPE is not.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
There is still room for an explanation besides tapping into the PPE. My point all along.
The significant factor might not be PPE. It might be the value of life.

But animal life has no real value in the game.
No alignment bans killing animals.
There is no alignment restriction on the hunting skill.

Animal life seems to have some real value in the game. Good aligned characters will not sacrifice them.
Hunting and sacrificing are different things.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:14 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Alejandro wrote:The sacrifice portion seems to have started from the very beginning of the thread.

Using the double PPE granted at anything's death is NOT evil. Killing something explicitly for the purpose of getting that PPE IS. Good characters won't kill something sheerly for the purpose of taking the double PPE.

That begs the question:
Why is it NOT evil to kill a goat for food, clothing, etc.
Or, presumably, even to kill a deer for fun.
BUT it IS evil to kill an animal for PPE?

If not that the act of taking the PPE itself will taint you?

Intention. The question of why it is evil is answered before the actual act of drawing the PPE.

If drawing the PPE is not evil, then why is intention to draw the PPE evil?

Because the method enabling the mage to draw upon PPE is evil. The books says the method is evil. The book does not say that drawing PPE is evil.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:16 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:If you kill with the intention of tapping into the PPE then you have done something evil. What does not matter is if you actually tap into the PPE.

You keep making that claim, but you haven't supported it.

You keep making that claim, too.

One more time.

Blood sacrifice is evil.
Blood sacrifice is killing with the intention of tapping into the PPE.
Killing with the intention of tapping into PPE is evil.

Supported.

You are the only one that claims I am being unreasonable. Demonstrate it. Please.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:16 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's not a ritual in of itself, it's just used in rituals by evil people.
You require a sacrificial victim to perform a blood sacrifice. The sacrificial victim is a key component of evil ceremonial magic in this case. Evil ceremonial magic is happening. The book even tells me to go read about ceremonial magic. But it never tells me blood sacrifice is not evil ceremonial magic. Only you have.

Well, the book never says it IS ceremonial magic; that's just something you've made up on your own.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why would the intention of killing for the doubled PPE be evil, if the drawing of that PPE is not?

Because PPE is naturally occurring energy. Using evil ceremonial magic to enable yourself to exploit this naturally occurring energy is what makes it evil. Blood sacrifice is evil ceremonial magic.

Uh, no... it's still not.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
There is still room for an explanation besides tapping into the PPE. My point all along.
The significant factor might not be PPE. It might be the value of life.

But animal life has no real value in the game.
No alignment bans killing animals.
There is no alignment restriction on the hunting skill.

Animal life seems to have some real value in the game. Good aligned characters will not sacrifice them.
Hunting and sacrificing are different things.

Right.
Hunting = killing animals for fun, food, and fur = not evil.
Sacrifice = killing animals for PPE = evil.

What's the difference there?
The PPE.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:22 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:It's not a ritual in of itself, it's just used in rituals by evil people.
You require a sacrificial victim to perform a blood sacrifice. The sacrificial victim is a key component of evil ceremonial magic in this case. Evil ceremonial magic is happening. The book even tells me to go read about ceremonial magic. But it never tells me blood sacrifice is not evil ceremonial magic. Only you have.

Well, the book never says it IS ceremonial magic; that's just something you've made up on your own.

It's clear from the context.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Why would the intention of killing for the doubled PPE be evil, if the drawing of that PPE is not?

Because PPE is naturally occurring energy. Using evil ceremonial magic to enable yourself to exploit this naturally occurring energy is what makes it evil. Blood sacrifice is evil ceremonial magic.

Uh, no... it's still not.

That's something you have made up on your own. The book never says it IS NOT ceremonial magic.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
There is still room for an explanation besides tapping into the PPE. My point all along.
The significant factor might not be PPE. It might be the value of life.

But animal life has no real value in the game.
No alignment bans killing animals.
There is no alignment restriction on the hunting skill.

Animal life seems to have some real value in the game. Good aligned characters will not sacrifice them.
Hunting and sacrificing are different things.

Right.
Hunting = killing animals for fun, food, and fur = not evil.
Sacrifice = killing animals for PPE = evil.

What's the difference there?
The PPE.

The difference is intention. What are you killing for?

You keep repeating yourself, that does not create truth.
Nor does it demonstrate I am being unreasonable.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:41 pm**

lather wrote:"they learned to merge the mind with the body; to direct and focus the inner self, 'Chi'"

Chi is described as the inner self not natural energy binding the universe together.

N&S 16
"All living things have Chi. Essentially, it's the energy of life that flows through the earth and through every living thing."

BtS 49
"Yet PPE is not really an enigma. It is a natural, physical and mental essence that links and binds all life."

N&S 46
"Geomancy: This allows the character to evaluate the amount of Chi in any area. Some places will have a large amount of positive Chi, others will have a substantial negative Chi."

BtS 40
"Geomancy and ley lines are the belief that certain places on Earth are polarized with an unknown energy or forces that can heal, cause paranormal phenomena, attract supernatural forces, open dimensional gateways, are magical or places of evil."

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:48 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, the book never says it IS ceremonial magic; that's just something you've made up on your own.
It's clear from the context.

No, it's clearly NOT.
You need to work on your basic English skills.

Hunting = killing animals for fun, food, and fur = not evil.
Sacrifice = killing animals for PPE = evil.

What's the difference there?
The PPE.
The difference is intention. What are you killing for?

Why is killing something for it's PPE evil?

You keep repeating yourself, that does not create truth.

I'm not trying to create truth; I'm trying to get you to see the truth.

Nor does it demonstrate I am being unreasonable.

You do that just fine on your own.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:49 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:If you kill with the intention of tapping into the PPE then you have done something evil. What does not matter is if you actually tap into the PPE.

You keep making that claim, but you haven't supported it.
You keep making that claim, too.

One more time.

Blood sacrifice is evil.
Blood sacrifice is killing with the intention of tapping into the PPE.
Killing with the intention of tapping into PPE is evil.

Supported.

That's not actually supporting anything.
It's just a series of unsupported claims.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:51 pm**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:If drawing the PPE is not evil, then why is intention to draw the PPE evil?

Because the method enabling the mage to draw upon PPE is evil. The books says the method is evil. The book does not say that drawing PPE is evil.

That doesn't answer the question.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:04 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:"they learned to merge the mind with the body; to direct and focus the inner self, 'Chi'"

Chi is described as the inner self not natural energy binding the universe together.

N&S 16
"All living things have Chi. Essentially, it's the energy of life that flows through the earth and through every living thing."

BtS 49
"Yet PPE is not really an enigma. It is a natural, physical and mental essence that links and binds all life."

N&S 46
"Geomancy: This allows the character to evaluate the amount of Chi in any area. Some places will have a large amount of positive Chi, others will have a substantial negative Chi."

BtS 40
"Geomancy and ley lines are the belief that certain places on Earth are polarized with an unknown energy or forces that can heal, cause paranormal phenomena, attract supernatural forces, open dimensional gateways, are magical or places of evil."

The original context was BtS. And BtS does not say PPE is Chi.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:06 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, the book never says it IS ceremonial magic; that's just something you've made up on your own.
It's clear from the context.

No, it's clearly NOT.
You need to work on your basic English skills.

Actually, it is clear. This sure is fun.

Ceremonial magic appears all over blood sacrifice description, the end of the paragraph even tells me to read about ceremonial magic. A victim may be a key component of evil ceremonial magic. In this case, a victim is a key component. You can't have a sacrifice without a victim.

Rather than suggest I improve something about myself, you tell me how "it's clearly NOT".

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why is killing something for it's PPE evil?

I don't know why. I never claimed to know why. I just claimed that the book says blood sacrifice (killing something for its PPE) is evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
You keep repeating yourself, that does not create truth.

I'm not trying to create truth; I'm trying to get you to see the truth.

You're trying to get me to see your version of the truth. Which I see. I said that about a thousand posts ago. What I am after is a demonstration how my points are unreasonable.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nor does it demonstrate I am being unreasonable.

You do that just fine on your own.

Cop out.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:08 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:If you kill with the intention of tapping into the PPE then you have done something evil. What does not matter is if you actually tap into the PPE.

You keep making that claim, but you haven't supported it.
You keep making that claim, too.

One more time.

Blood sacrifice is evil.
Blood sacrifice is killing with the intention of tapping into the PPE.
Killing with the intention of tapping into PPE is evil.

Supported.

That's not actually supporting anything.
It's just a series of unsupported claims.

Blood sacrifice is evil.
-Supported claim.
Participating in blood sacrifice is a hideous act of evil.
Participating in blood sacrifice immediately makes a character go to evil alignment.

Blood sacrifice is killing with the intention of tapping into the PPE.
-Supported claim.
Blood sacrifice is killing a sacrificial victim to enable an evil mage to draw the doubled PPE.

Killing with the intention of tapping into PPE is evil.
-Reasonable conclusion.
If blood sacrifice is killing with the intention of tapping into doubled PPE and blood sacrifice is evil, then killing with the intention of tapping into doubled PPE is evil.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:09 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:If drawing the PPE is not evil, then why is intention to draw the PPE evil?

Because the method enabling the mage to draw upon PPE is evil. The books says the method is evil. The book does not say that drawing PPE is evil.

That doesn't answer the question.

I don't know why. Apparently motive is enough. Otherwise the book would say that drawing PPE is evil, rather than saying that killing in order to enable the drawing of PPE is evil.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:14 am**

lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
lather wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:If drawing the PPE is not evil, then why is intention to draw the PPE evil?

Because the method enabling the mage to draw upon PPE is evil. The books says the method is evil. The book does not say that drawing PPE is evil.

That doesn't answer the question.
I don't know why. Apparently motive is enough. Otherwise the book would say that drawing PPE is evil, rather than saying that killing in order to enable the drawing of PPE is evil.

The book doesn't say that killing in order to enable the drawing of PPE is evil.
The book says that killing and drawing the PPE is evil.
It places no special emphasis on either part of the blood sacrifice.

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Is it evil to draw in the doubled PPE from a slain demon?