Forums of the Megaverse®

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Nelzie wrote: Where is the CVR-3 Armor in the Southern Cross? Where are the Hover Cyclones in New Generation or why aren't they using Cyclones instead of Hover Cycles in The Southern Cross?

That's the kind of inconsistencies I am talking about. Watching the show, I just ignore that stuff, knowing how it was put together. For the game? I want to see a Hover Cyclone.

The Toy Store Scott Crashes Through in "Denver" has Models of the Alpha and its pre-beta Booster, and a poster with a Cyclone on it. "denver" was abandoned days before the invid invasion. meaning the Technology of the EF was on earth at one point, and was the basis for some "GI JoE" type Toyline.

From a old Magna that was done I think after the show, "Denver" was evacuated at the time of the more recent "Reclimation" attempt, Aparently they had been makeing efforts to evacuate earth as part of each atack, bascialy each reclamation fleet was a "diversion" for an evacuation efort as well as a serious attempt to create a bridgehead. as for the "toystore" in the current storyline, that only shows what we mean, the invid invasion happend roughly 1 year after SC, so where the heck was all this "old teck" from back then like the old Alfas and Cyclones?

Nelzie wrote:

Drakenred®™© wrote:

Nelzie wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Nelzie wrote: .[/b]

.

Where are the Hover Cyclones in New Generation

Somehow I dont think hover cyclones would work too well in a vacume

Hover tanks worked in a vacuum...

Still, how well do Cyclones in Motorcycle mode work in a vacuum in the depths of space?

as EVA armor bascialy. the point I was making was how well would a hover cyclone work on a airless moon for example, a "wheeled" vehicle can just roll long.

hoverjets, no matter the type, appear to need some form of atmosphere to operate. the ASC, since it operates largely on earth, can count on such an atmosphere to use.

the EF, which operates largely in space, cannot count on al lthe worlds/stellar bodies they visit to have an atmosphere. so they use technology that while older, is more versitile for the enviroments they're in.

a hovercycles would be deadweight on the moon, for example, but a cyclone could still be ridden.

the VHT's used in space, if you remember, were heavily modified with thruster packs, and didn't use their hoverjets for propulsion. it wasn't until they entered the lifesupport of the master's ships that they behaved like hovercraft. (and once inside, they lost the thruster packs, and had to escape on bioroid sleds...)

again, the mecha in use are chosen to fit the required roles. my example of WW2 is still a good one. in WW2 the army airforce (one branch, two command regions) used mostly different planes in the pacific than were used in europe. in europe the B-17 was the main bomber. in the pacific it was quickly replaced by the b-29, as the B29 had superior range, which was required in the island hopping sea campaign, while in europe the B-17's could hit anywhere in europe from england, and the longer range of the more expensive 29 was not needed.
likewise, in europe the P-47 and the P-51 were the most common fighters, being long ranged and fairly good at dealing with the german fighters, but the pacific saw more use of the P-38, which was more agile and with long range, both ideally suited to dealing with the japanese fighters, which tended to be lighter and more agile than the german ones. it wasn't unti lthe very end of the war that P-51's started to be used in the pacific, and that was mostly squadrons transferred over from the now surrendured european front.

in fact, WW2 is a good example of the branches in action and comparitive differences between theatres. the US marines saw little action in europe, where the army did much of the fighting, but in the pacific the army had only a little role, and most of the ground fighting was done by marines.

when germany fell, plans were made to move the army units to the pacific for the invasion of japan, but japan surrendered before it could be done.



in the case of robotech, we can look at it similarly. the ASC's theatre of operations is earth and the space/worlds near it. the EF's theatre is the regions beyond that, including tirol and the sentinals worlds.

when earth came under attack from the masters, what reinforcements could be spared were sent to help out. when earth fell to the invid, surviving ASC troops that escaped (like seen in the comics with dana) were given a place in the EF's command structure as an "army" branch, which was used alongside EF marines in the ground fighting at reflex point.

much like what was planned for the invasion of japan in WW2. marines and army fighting side by side in an amphibious assualt, carried into place and supported by navy ships and covered by marine, army airforce, and navy fliers.

a slight clarification

The P-38 was not more agile, (the few P-38 Pilots I know were the first to admit that almost any Alied single engine fighter could outturn them except the P-47 and even then they were kind of grudgingly claiming that) the BIG advantage of the 38 was its raw speed and its ability to outclimb out dive and if needed outrun anything anyone else had, follwed by the fact that the P-38 had 2 Engins and was built like, well, an American Aircraft. (its was fun to listen to Japanise and German WWII pilots, the ones I met all coment as to how tough an aircraft is by comparing it to American Aircaft of WWII, but then it was probably a comon frame of reference between them. Granted their were 2 Russian built aircraft that the geman pilots all considered to be realy tough nuts to crack)

That Said the P-38 was probably more manuverable than any other Dual engin aircraft out their.

Nelzie wrote: A hypothetical Hover Cyclone could use utilize the same style of thrusters that are used in the Veritech Fighters, which were suitable for operation within and outside of atmosphere.

That's really all I would suggest. This is digressing to much, maybe, if I can find some time, I might sketch up what such a hypothetical Cyclone could look like and perhaps work up some stats for it too.

veritechs use an engine that requires reaction mass (or remass for sort.)
in an atmosphere, the VT uses air as remass, heating it with the fusion reactor for thrust.
in space it carries onboard remass (which we see in macross when Ben Dixon gets hit and starts leaking)

a hoversystem could theoretically use onboard remass, but then you've got a rocket, which may or may not be very efficent to use in a vacuum for merely getting around the surface of a moon or planet.

wheels are very efficent, by leaving the onboard remass for important duties like jumping gaps or flying in armor mode, and not just staying off the surface.

Jmacq1 wrote: I would note (and it was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post) the Cyclone toy in Denver doesn't mean there were Cyclones on Earth pre-Invid. It means there were Cyclone toys on earth pre-Invid, no more, no less. (Or did they find an actual Cyclone in that episode?)

It's entirely possible that people on earth knew what Cyclones were and what they looked like and did without any of them being on Earth. There could very well be a line of toys based on the REF folks out in space without a Cyclone ever setting foot on Earth. There were probably at least occasional "news updates" on the REF until contact was lost.

It's splitting hairs, sure, and it's entirely possible that there were a few Cyclones on Earth in the SC era (just rare), but the presence of a toy figure of one doesn't necessarily supply ironclad proof that the actual object it's based on was on Earth.

its proof that toys were there yes.
its proof the Cyclone existed pre-invid invasion.
its proof the UEF knew of their Existance.
The REF forces in the Masters Era led by Carpenter were using Southren Cross style equipment.
The REf obviously had acess to both types of Technology. so why is it hard to believe the ASC would have acess to both types too.

CavScout wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:
its proof that toys were there yes.
its proof the Cyclone existed pre-invid invasion.
its proof the UEF knew of their Existance.
The REF forces in the Masters Era led by Carpenter were using Southren Cross style equipment.
The REf obviously had acess to both types of Technology. so why is it hard to believe the ASC would have acess to both types too.

Having "access" to and using are two different things. It's "hard to believe the ASC" used much of the 'REF-style' equipment becuase we don't see the ASC doing so.

I never meant to imply the ASC used any.
but the show shows the REF/UEEF did.
as per:

Additionally, in the Masters Saga we do know that some forces from the expeditionary forces used equipment similar to the ASC forces back on Earth (see Carpenter). Also, the old men from New Gen clearly state they arrived near the end of the Masters’ War and were clearly equipped with ships and equipment that would later be seen prominently in forces returning to Earth post-Invid invasion.

or the ASC equipment was more advanced then the technology used by the EF.
and Leonardis the Supream Commander of the United Earth forces. unless the United Earth Expeditonary force arent part of the United Earth Forces... Leonard is in their Chain of command to.

Robotech.com wrote:DESCRIPTION:
The Supreme Commander of all United Earth Forces,

Nelzie wrote: Case in point would be the thread I created on RPG.net wherein a particular poster decided to derail a thread that was specifically about what was in the book by arguing about the series and tossing around expletives.

if a RPG is based of a Series... I'd hope it closely resembels the Series...
I dont wana Star wars RPG with Klingons and Vulcans.

Jmacq1 wrote:If Leonard had any "pull" over the REF he'd likely have had the entire REF back to Earth to fight off the Masters.

It would still require the Prime Minister's okay to do so and there is no indication of Moran ever doing such a thing. Also, the forces that return in Mind Games are the REF as well as those that arrive in Catastrophe (they are in space and being monitored when Leonard orders the Final Offensive to start).

So I'd venture that no, "United Earth Forces" and "United Earth Expeditionary Force" aren't the same "branches" of the military, and thus Leonard has no real say over the UEEF.

Major Carpenter reports directly to Supreme Commander Leonard, meaning that he is the head of the chain-of-command. Had he not been so, Carpenter would have reported to his Chiefs of Staff on Earth, not Leonard. Also, Rolf Emerson is shown to excercise direct operational control over those REF forces that returned in Mind Games.

Even if technically he does, in practice exerting any real control over them may well be impossible.

General Reinhardt as a theatre commander does have at least limited autonomy to deny returning troops if he is heavily engaged (as the Colonel Wolfe flashback video implies in Eulogy). There is also the lag time between contact (FTL-comm does appear to be instantaneous) and returning those forces to Earth (spacefolding DOES take time, and this is if the forces are instantly available which is unlikely).

Especially since the ASC's highest-ranking representative with the UEEF was an inherently treacherous monster.

General Edwards lead his coup 12+ years after the death of Supreme Commander Leonard. Not exactly seeing how Leonard and the ASC can be blamed for Edward's treachery. Thats like saying the entire FBI is guilty because Robert Hannsen sold secrets to the Russians.

Scott Samson wrote:My opinion is that since they are space based warriors, sent from ships, they are a part of the Space Navy and therefore would by definition be Marines.

Sorry rabid Southern Cross guy,


They are Marines.

but where are they called so in the Show/Movie?

Scott Samson wrote:Sorry rabid Southern Cross guy,

They are Marines.

Okay, do we need a refresher course on the fact that the RPG is supposed to be based on the Robotech Tv series? The Tv series is unequivocal that the Ground Forces branch of the REF is the Army. Furthermore, both the novelizations and scripts of The Sentinels say The Army of the Southern Cross is one component of the Expeditionary Force. It does not matter one iota what Tommy Yune says as HG's policy is that the Tv series is the final word on matters of continuity.

Well the point of the OP and his subsequent posts isn't about what they call the UEEF forces that were engaged (certainly it's plausible that at least some of them were Marines but also plausible that at least some of them are Army).

The OP's concern is that this is a step towards removing part of the origional robotech from appearing in any of the future movies and shows produced by HG.

A similar situation might have a Star Wars fan concerned that by changing the location fo the final battle from Kashyk (sp) to Endor and the locals from Wookies to Ewoks (which was done for purely technical reasons) Lucas might have inteneded to prepare the way for no furthur wookie related items in the continuity.

Fortunately for wookie fans, Lucas did no such thing.

Despite some of the PTB over at HG being fairly dismssive of Southern Cross, and likewise the fan base, I don't think that ASC will totally disappear from future parts of the continity . . . though I would be surprised if it took a major role (equally surprised if Macross did beyond the recycling of a few characters).

Scott Samson wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Scott Samson wrote:My opinion is that since they are space based warriors, sent from ships, they are a part of the Space Navy and therefore would by definition be Marines.

Sorry rabid Southern Cross guy,


They are Marines.

but where are they called so in the Show/Movie?

Where in Casablanca does Bogart say, "Play it again Sam?"

He doesnt.

The correct name to call soldiers sent from ships is, Marine.

Casablanca?
I meant in Robotech.
I'll repeat. What episode or what chapter of the Movie do theyget Called Marines?
So the Army Units Landing on D-Day were Marines? Better tell my maternal-Grandpa he was in the Wrong branch, he wasnt Army, he was Marine Corp.

Scott Samson wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Scott Samson wrote:My opinion is that since they are space based warriors, sent from ships, they are a part of the Space Navy and therefore would by definition be Marines.

Sorry rabid Southern Cross guy,


They are Marines.

but where are they called so in the Show/Movie?

Where in Casablanca does Bogart say, "Play it again Sam?"

He doesnt.

The correct name to call soldiers sent from ships is, Marine.

I will be sure to tell the members of the 1st and 4th Infantry Div that they are Marines, along with members of if the US 6th army

on second thought, I will say that you are claiming that their Marines.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Scott Samson wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Scott Samson wrote:My opinion is that since they are space based warriors, sent from ships, they are a part of the Space Navy and therefore would by definition be Marines.

Sorry rabid Southern Cross guy,


They are Marines.

but where are they called so in the Show/Movie?

Where in Casablanca does Bogart say, "Play it again Sam?"

He doesnt.

The correct name to call soldiers sent from ships is, Marine.

Casablanca?
I meant in Robotech.
I'll repeat. What episode or what chapter of the Movie do theyget Called Marines?
So the Army Units Landing on D-Day were Marines? Better tell my maternal-Grandpa he was in the Wrong branch, he wasnt Army, he was Marine Corp.

To be fair, the US army does not practic Amphib warfare mutch anymore, and the USMC specialise in it.

Scott was sent from a ship.
Everyone ins Space is sent from a "Ship"
you cant do an "Amphibious" assult in space.
Marines do Specialse in Amphibious Assults.... but dosent mean no one else can do them, nor that everyone doing them is a Marine.
Frankly. Marine isnt even an appropiate term in Space.

Scott Samson wrote:I'm talking about a fictional world, called robotech..

In real life, I was a real U.S. Marine....


My Uncle stormed Normandy, he was in The Army.

My Dad was in the 187 3rd Battalion rakkassans 101st Airborne during Viet Nam. He did not parachute into A Shau Valley, but he was still a paratrooper.

I was deployed to Somalia, via a C-5 Starlifter courtesy of the U.S. Air Force. Does that trip make me a member of the Air Force? No.


In the fictional world of Robotech, there were Armys of the Southern Cross and there were Marines.

Again, sorry but the new book is correct.

They are Marines.

and I'm telling you, They are never Called that in the Show or Movie.

Scott Samson wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Scott was sent from a ship.
Everyone ins Space is sent from a "Ship"
you cant do an "Amphibious" assult in space.
Marines do Specialse in Amphibious Assults.... but dosent mean no one else can do them, nor that everyone doing them is a Marine.
Frankly. Marine isnt even an appropiate term in Space.

What about the movie Aliens? They were Space Marines?

in Robotech, they are never Called Marines.
Maybe we can call them Jedi or StormTroopers, since in Starwars the they are sent down from Ships to do military actions.

Scott Samson wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Scott Samson wrote:I'm talking about a fictional world, called robotech..

In real life, I was a real U.S. Marine....


My Uncle stormed Normandy, he was in The Army.

My Dad was in the 187 3rd Battalion rakkassans 101st Airborne during Viet Nam. He did not parachute into A Shau Valley, but he was still a paratrooper.

I was deployed to Somalia, via a C-5 Starlifter courtesy of the U.S. Air Force. Does that trip make me a member of the Air Force? No.


In the fictional world of Robotech, there were Armys of the Southern Cross and there were Marines.

Again, sorry but the new book is correct.

They are Marines.

and I'm telling you, They are never Called that in the Show or Movie.

Just like bogart never said, play it again Sam...

Which has nothing to do with Robotech.

We do have a description of UEF Marines in the previous RPG books.

The Tactical Corps is described as being the UEF equivalent to the Marine Corps.

Jefffar wrote:We do have a description of UEF Marines in the previous RPG books.

The Tactical Corps is described as being the UEF equivalent to the Marine Corps.

yep, and in the new RPG, the UEFF has Marines.

and Im telling you your getting bent out of shape over something I consider at most to be trivia. Lets be honest, players will create their own Army, Comandos, Rangers, SAS, PJs, pick your own color Berets, Jäger, Spielwächter, 保護者 , and whatever else the heck else they feel like creating.

hey, this is the First debate in the Robotech forum to not devolve into a Flame war by 200 posts.

Hey, The Marines will be in my Game too.
I'm just saying that none of the Soilders in Robotech are Marines.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Hey, The Marines will be in my Game too.
I'm just saying that none of the Soilders in Robotech are Marines.

Soo what exactly arewe arguing about?

Scott Samson wrote:No, there is no refresher course needed. They are Marines.

Apparently, you do. Here it is, courtesy of Robotech.com:

Q: What is the definitive source of events in the Robotech universe when discrepancies arise in continuity?
- Anonymous

A: The original television series is the primary source of story continuity for the Robotech universe. Subsequently published material (including The Sentinels) represents secondary continuity. All future works are based upon the core continuity presented in the original series, which can also be supplemented by material from secondary sources where it supports the storyline of the television episodes. Where conflicts arise, consistency with events of the television episodes takes priority.

Lets see....dialogue to back up my point:

Eulogy
Scott Bernard: You mean the Invid aren't soldier hunting in this quadrant anymore?
Unnamed EF Soldier: Are you kidding, we've got so many soldiers here those vermin will never come near.
...........
Colonel Wolfe: Can't talk now, we've got wounded. Soldier, take care of Tom.

The Fortress
Scott: Thats an old outpost of our Mountain Offense Squad from the war against the Robotech Masters.

Sandstorm
Scott: You see everyone, this is a perfect example of the need to follow orders to the letter. A soldier who is incapable of doing that is worse than useless.
Rand: You're way out of line Scott.
Scott: Am I?
Rand: First of all, Lunk isn't a soldier anymore. He volunteered for this mission. And if that isn't enough, just look at this. The Invid were using his jeep for target practice. I think thats a pretty good excuse for a man to disobey orders.
Scott: Admiral Hunter expected everyone in Mars Division to do his duty, no matter what the risks involved.

Ghost Town
Jesse: Genuine Army-issue laser rifles.
Lancer: This model must date clear back to the War against the Robotech Masters. I guess it wouldn't be good taste to ask you where you got them.
............
Jesse: Way back when we was soldiers, the Army issued us these weapons to us.
............
Lancer: (to himself) What a sad bunch this is. Soldiers who've lost their will to fight.
.............
Jesse: We ain't soldiers any longer and don't take orders from the likes of you or anyone else.
...............
The Narrator: (referring to Gabby) On an isolated trail leading to the Invid Broadcast Tower, a lone vehicle penetrates the forbidden area. At the wheel, clad in battle armor, a single soldier confronts the deadly enemy with calm, grim determination. In the face of certain death, he drives on, ignoring the danger. He is a soldier, with a duty to perform.
........
Frank: (referring to Gabby) He was a brave and loyal soldier all the way and then some.
Marlene/Ariel: Whats this?
Rand: Its a holograph of someone!
Gabby's Son: Hi Dad, like Father like Son. So here I am in the Army now and I just hope you'll be as proud of me as I am of you.

Dark Finale
General Reinhardt: We must wait for the Ground Forces to clear a path to Reflex Point before the invasion can truly begin.
...............
Rand: This is gonna be a heck of a party.
Scott: Forget it, you're not coming. This is strictly a military operation.
..........
Lunk: Hey everybody. Well, what do ya know, this crazy Army made me a soldier again.
........
Scott Bernard: Yep I get the impression these Army flyboys are a little rusty at it. So I think we'll just have to give them a few pointers.

So, please, Scott, point to me where it says the Ground Forces (specifically referenced in Dark Finale) are said to be Marines? I kept hearing the word Soldier (synonymous with the Army) and Army, including Lunk saying the Army took him back (that same Army that was at Reflex Point with 'the Ground Forces').

Drakenred®™© wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Hey, The Marines will be in my Game too.
I'm just saying that none of the Soilders in Robotech are Marines.

Soo what exactly arewe arguing about?

I'm not Arguing.
I'm just saying whats in the Show.

Scott Samson wrote:Nah, after all that....(carrot chomping sound) I still say they are Marines...

They're never called Marines in the show.

WHY CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG!? I can almost see our own reality show: "When Robotech Fans Attack!" I wonder what RSCF will say when the Robotech Masters book actually does come out and it has all the hovertanks, logans and ajacs in it!

RPG has Marines.
Show & Movie has none.
in the End HG wil ignore the middle Chapter of Robotech as Usual.
End of Thread.
join us next week for the "The RPG lacks Rabbits and Ducks, but the show has them Debate"

Arnie100 wrote::D WHY CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG!? I can almost see our own reality show: "When Robotech Fans Attack!" I wonder what RSCF will say when the Robotech Masters book actually does come out and it has all the hovertanks, logans and ajacs in it!

That will depend greatly upon whether the writer of said book actually uses information from the Tv series (and OSM) or if it completely fabricates info that has no basis in the series (such as saying the UEF maintained no space-fold capable ships nor any FTL-comm capability, both of which are demonstrably false).

Zerebus wrote:"Marines! We are LEAVING!"

Game over man, Game over!!!

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Arnie100 wrote::D WHY CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG!? I can almost see our own reality show: "When Robotech Fans Attack!" I wonder what RSCF will say when the Robotech Masters book actually does come out and it has all the hovertanks, logans and ajacs in it!

That will depend greatly upon whether the writer of said book actually uses information from the Tv series (and OSM) or if it completely fabricates info that has no basis in the series (such as saying the UEF maintained no space-fold capable ships nor any FTL-comm capability, both of which are demonstrably false).

Rabid, you know your the only Fan who's not Completly Biased against the Masters Era...

Now why can't the UEEF have both an Army and a Marine Corps? We Do! Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem!? Make everybody happy? On the next hour of When Robotech Fans Attack: "Does Minmay have talent?"

Arnie100 wrote::D Now why can't the UEEF have both an Army and a Marine Corps?

They do.
Marines in the RPG.
and Army from the Show.

Arnie100 wrote::D Now why can't the UEEF have both an Army and a Marine Corps? We Do! Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem!? Make everybody happy? On the next hour of When Robotech Fans Attack: "Does Minmay have talent?"

And I did say I have no problem with their being 'Marines' in the UEEF. The Cosmic Units that Dennis Brown is a part of (and are mentioned in the show, Final Nightmare specifically) would seem to fit the bill. They are there to do boarding actions, assault space stations and serve as Fleet Security. They would supplement (not replace) the Army units engaged in Planetary Assault Operations.

I won't have marines in my games. Why? They weren't in the show. That and I'll probably get Code Pink (ugh!) to boycott the game.

Seriously this is now a waste of futility - you have one side of the isle just nagging the other side. You have one group who says the RPG should rule out, and the other saying the show should.

Who is right? They both are. As Nelzie pointed out - in your games you can do what you want. As RSCF has pointed out - Harmony Gold has decided to toss out its own show to redo history.

And for another parallel - this is coming down to whether Han Solo shot first!

Chill out or this thread will be locked.

SEE!? WE CAN GET ALONG! YAY! On the next hour of WHEN ROBOTECH FANS ATTACK!:: Was General Leonard REALLY a maniac? Or just a poor, misunderstood, lonely man?

Tiree wrote: And for another parallel - this is coming down to whether Han Solo shot first!

Well, Han wasnt a Marine in the Movie.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Tiree wrote: And for another parallel - this is coming down to whether Han Solo shot first!

Well, Han wasnt a Marine in the Movie.

True - if he was, he would of shot first

I'm looking forward to seeing Palladium and HG eventually releasing new material for all of the shows that HG owns in the Robotech Francise.

Im totaly Biased against the total screwup that is the Masters arc as published by paladium books,

he missed (or messed up) (deep breath)
VHT-1A Hovertank with 120mm main gun
Banshee-Class Light Frigate
Battle-Class Destroyer
Tristar-Class Cruiser
at least 2 diferent Masters suport ships
the outright theft of mecha for the fictional EBSIS

Well, that's why we had Anti-Kevs! Remember them?

I really want to see all of those things from Southern Cross Drakenred. Especially the ships statted out correctly! Those were sorely missed in the original version!

Arnie100 wrote::D Well, that's why we had Anti-Kevs! Remember them?

yeah, it was Kev from the Mirrior universe....

Zerebus wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Arnie100 wrote::D Well, that's why we had Anti-Kevs! Remember them?

yeah, it was Kev from the Mirrior universe....

Wait....


Did he or did he not have a mustache?

ummm....
Kirk gained one there.... so the Anti-Kev lacks one.

I'm happy to see the depth that HG and PB went with the new book. A few little errors seem to have gotten in, but they can be handled.

Zerebus wrote:But he'd get facial hair elsewhere, right? So...... neckbeard?

Anti-Kev's beard dosent hide his Chin... Just another Rifts book.