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Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:45 pm
by Noon
Natasha wrote:The only point of a skills system is to determine what a character may or may not be able to do. Maths, language, driving, etc. Many times we don't roll against them, but we still have them. If we don't, then we can't do them. You need a computer hacker to know you need a laser comms expert. You need to be able to speak a language to speak a language (usually). You need to be able to do basic maths to basic maths.
As opposed to a system that - for instance - has you merely rolling under an attribute number that's marginally related to a skill you've never had a drop of training in.
Then the GM doesn't let you roll for it, if you haven't had a drop of training. If that really matters.
Same goes for skills - I don't think learning basic maths in primary school has given you a drop of training in the ability to count shots during combat, either.
In either case, attribute or skill, the GM decides if what your doing can be done. The skill doesn't tell you what you can do - it just sits there in case the GM wants to make you roll on it. He could just as easily want to make you roll on an attribute.
To be clear, you don't need basic maths to do what you think is involved in basic maths. What you need is a GM who thinks your character could do what you think is involved in basic maths. That's very different from actually needing the skill to do something.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:39 pm
by Natasha
Noon wrote:Then the GM doesn't let you roll for it, if you haven't had a drop of training. If that really matters.
I think it matters enough that it's the rule, not the exception.
Noon wrote:Same goes for skills - I don't think learning basic maths in primary school has given you a drop of training in the ability to count shots during combat, either.
I disagree that learning how to count doesn't give you the ability to count things.
Noon wrote:In either case, attribute or skill, the GM decides if what your doing can be done. The skill doesn't tell you what you can do - it just sits there in case the GM wants to make you roll on it. He could just as easily want to make you roll on an attribute.
Same thing as the first point. I don't think skills just sit there and I think they do tell you what you can do. Otherwise, I don't see the point of having them in the first place if it's all up to GM's discretion what can I do or not.
Noon wrote:To be clear, you don't need basic maths to do what you think is involved in basic maths. What you need is a GM who thinks your character could do what you think is involved in basic maths. That's very different from actually needing the skill to do something.
Except the rules say you need basic maths to be able to count.
Most of our differences are matters of playstyle and, I think, interpretation of canon. And that's cool. I see your points and usually I think you have very good ones. This time though, I disagree. Hopefully we can leave it at that.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:57 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Dustin Fireblade wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:At least, not to the best of my knowledge.
Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, and I'll retract the statement.
The Merc Ops books introduces two high powered laser communication systems from Wilks. Need the laser comm skill to use those. There's also cell phones in the book as well.
Merc Town also introduces a city telephone exchange that builds and maintains the city wide telephone and cell phone systems, and I think a internet based system. I believe it mentioned being just less modern than the CS system.
I retract the statement.
'Bout time that skill saw some use.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:37 pm
by Noon
Natasha wrote:Same thing as the first point. I don't think skills just sit there and I think they do tell you what you can do. Otherwise, I don't see the point of having them in the first place if it's all up to GM's discretion what can I do or not.
You'd assume everything in an RPG has a point? That it's not possible for something like skills to be pointless?
I could write an RPG that has pointless skills in it because it's all up to GM discretion. For me, thats evidence that yeah, skills can just be pointless exercises in GM discretion. And that any RPG I read may also have such pointless skills.
Go on, take the red pill, ya know ya wanna 
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:12 pm
by Natasha
It's still a matter of playstyle and interpretation of the rules.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:53 pm
by Noon
What roleplay authority states that? And how did they get that authority to begin with? I don't remember voting...
If the author intended it to be played in X (GM discretion skills) way, then it's intended to be played in X way. There's no higher rule above that that I'm aware of that says its actually a matter of playstyle and interpretation. All there is is the physical capability in this universe to ignore what the author wanted and do your own thing. Which I've done myself, many a time.
If you play it as intended by the author, what skills can 'do' is purely up to GM discretion. If your playing it some other way, I respect that, but because you seem a nice person and not because there is some higher rule saying it's a matter of playstyle and interpretation of the rules.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:22 pm
by Natasha
Noon wrote:What roleplay authority states that? And how did they get that authority to begin with? I don't remember voting...
It's a conclusion I'm drawing from my understanding of this conversation.
And I am starting to realise that I don't understand what is your point, but at the start I thought I did. I get lost sometimes.
In Palladium, it seems to me that you take skills so that your character is capable.
If the GM just ignores that my character doesn't have SCUBA and decides since I'm a swimmer and pretty intelligent that I can just figure it out with a good roll of the dice, then that goes against Palladium rules as I understand and interpret them to mean.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:02 am
by Natasha
And I don't have any problems with any of that. I just hope my GM never does it. Letting a character SCUBA who can't is neither fun nor smart, in my opinion.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:58 am
by Natasha
Shazam wrote:Natasha wrote:And I don't have any problems with any of that. I just hope my GM never does it. Letting a character SCUBA who can't is neither fun nor smart, in my opinion.
Oh I didn't mention that there would be some huge problems with a failed roll.
True, you didn't; I still don't think that's a roll to be made. You become a certified diver because the equipment (dealing with malfunction, proper care, etc), physics of gas, and physiology of humans underwater while breathing odd gas mixtures is much more than being a clever swimmer. Strapping an air tank to your back and diving into the water is seriously endangering the character's life unless the character knows all that stuff you learn when you pick up the SCUBA
skill.
- What gas mixture am I using and how long and how deep does that permit me to dive safely?
- Why is diving while having slight chest or sinus congestion a really bad idea?
- Why are my joints in excruciating pain and is there something simple I could do to alleviate the pain?
- Why are my dive buddy's lips turning blue?
- What does that flag mean?
- How fast can I descend? Ascend? When should I ignore the safety rules?
- Do I need a compression chamber? Or a recompression chamber?
The answers to these questions are beyond an I.Q. check if skills have any meaning whatsoever.
I'd rather not get bogged down in the details. The rulebooks do a decent job explaining what is a skill and how that separates one character from another.
In other words, the capability of one character vs the capability of another is expressed by, among other things, skills.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:30 pm
by Natasha
Dustin Fireblade wrote:The Merc Ops books introduces two high powered laser communication systems from Wilks. Need the laser comm skill to use those. There's also cell phones in the book as well.
Merc Town also introduces a city telephone exchange that builds and maintains the city wide telephone and cell phone systems, and I think a internet based system. I believe it mentioned being just less modern than the CS system.
Rifts: Ultimate Edition has Operators specifically statted to find communication systems, and laser communications systems are indeed communications systems.
It also has a number of other laser communications systems, such compact discs (CDs), motion detectors, portable scan dihilators (all those optical sensors), infrared range finders, etc. All of these things fall under "laser communications" even if its name is a little misleading. The field of laser communications is actually the field of optical communications; and communication doesn't have to be humans babbling over radios or telephones, of course.
Rifts has computers and I'm not thinking it's too big of a leap of faith to assume that they have wireless keyboards for those computers; it's probably IrDA and that's laser communications, too.
If none of this is convincing to doubters, the fact that there is a skill likely means that they exist; you can't learn to do something if it doesn't exist.
If they're still not convinced, well, colour me utterly perplexed.
A Laser Communications Primer (PDF)
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:15 pm
by Noon
Shazam wrote:On the topic of roleplaying authority - huh what and huh again play the game in a fair FUN way use the skill tree as you see it should be used as the beauty of the palladium system
So all the fair and fun is to come from the GM?
For yourself, mayhap. I prefer to pay for things which actually justify having a cost. By carrying their own weight in fun and fairness, to some degree.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:30 am
by The Beast
Shazam wrote:all this is true, but it doesnt stop me fiddling with nobs and putting the breather in my mouth
Something tells me if you tried that in real life though, you'd end up in trouble. Anyone here know how to scuba dive and can back one of us up on this?
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:47 am
by Natasha
The Beast wrote:Shazam wrote:all this is true, but it doesnt stop me fiddling with nobs and putting the breather in my mouth
Something tells me if you tried that in real life though, you'd end up in trouble. Anyone here know how to scuba dive and can back one of us up on this?
The primary danger would be not understanding the gas mixture you're breathing and physiology of breathing these gases at different depths/pressures.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:50 am
by Natasha
airwalkrr wrote:Basic Math involves more than just counting change. Any character with an IQ of 8 or higher who is familiar with the currency should be able to do that. Basic Math gives you understanding of algebra, geometry, and trigonometry.
You may need to re-read the skill descriptions.
Or I do.
Certainly one from us does!
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:53 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Natasha wrote:airwalkrr wrote:Basic Math involves more than just counting change. Any character with an IQ of 8 or higher who is familiar with the currency should be able to do that. Basic Math gives you understanding of algebra, geometry, and trigonometry.
You may need to re-read the skill descriptions.
Or I do.
Certainly one from us does!
Seconded.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:56 pm
by Jesterzzn
Killer Cyborg wrote:Dustin Fireblade wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:At least, not to the best of my knowledge.
Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, and I'll retract the statement.
The Merc Ops books introduces two high powered laser communication systems from Wilks. Need the laser comm skill to use those. There's also cell phones in the book as well.
Merc Town also introduces a city telephone exchange that builds and maintains the city wide telephone and cell phone systems, and I think a internet based system. I believe it mentioned being just less modern than the CS system.
I retract the statement.
'Bout time that skill saw some use.
My first edition copy of the Rifts main book talks about Fiber being one of the ONLY means of long range communications. I think its under the section on Rifts space.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:07 am
by Armorlord
Jesterzzn wrote:My first edition copy of the Rifts main book talks about Fiber being one of the ONLY means of long range communications. I think its under the section on Rifts space.
Indeed, and my Second Printing copy agrees you.
Thanks for reminding me of where I had gotten that impression from. Seems Ms. Tarn didn't think about restating that bit from 'Traversing Our Modern World' in 'Our Changing World'.
As for Basic Math, I can understand how intelligent geeks such as ourselves can have a hard time imagining people who fail at basic math. Those of us who have worked in retail or service industries involving rank and file human beings (serving or working with), however, can certainly attest that such things occur at an alarming rate even in modern times, when it is supposed to be a common skill.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:55 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Mr. Pook wrote:Seems to me that complaining about useless skills in the game is like putting together a doghouse with a hammer and nails, then complaining that screwdrivers are useless. If you want a screwdriver to be useful, then use screws in your construction.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:32 pm
by lather
Rali wrote:since they really don't add anything to the game (at least the games I run/play)
See that qualifier?
They've added plenty to the games I run and play.
Laser communications is one of the finest skill additions Palladium has made to its list over the years. Very nicely done.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:08 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Rali wrote:since they really don't add anything to the game (at least the games I run/play)
See that qualifier?
They've added plenty to the games I run and play.
Laser communications is one of the finest skill additions Palladium has made to its list over the years. Very nicely done.
Did you insert devices to be used with the skill?
See the qualifier?
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:52 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Rali wrote:since they really don't add anything to the game (at least the games I run/play)
See that qualifier?
They've added plenty to the games I run and play.
Laser communications is one of the finest skill additions Palladium has made to its list over the years. Very nicely done.
Did you insert devices to be used with the skill?
Our Operator constructed that which he could not successfully scavenge.
Dog_O_War wrote:See the qualifier?
Usefullness of a skill is determined by our playing styles and the natures of our campaigns.
When we were a band of unarmed vagabonds wondering around Siberia not only were there some useless skills, there were some skills we were not even aware of existing....
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:24 am
by dark brandon
lather wrote:When we were a band of unarmed vagabonds wondering around Siberia not only were there some useless skills, there were some skills we were not even aware of existing....
Awesome. Sounds like a fun game. Another player an I were musing over playing a seriously low powered game...like with vegabonds and saloon bums.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:19 am
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Rali wrote:since they really don't add anything to the game (at least the games I run/play)
See that qualifier?
They've added plenty to the games I run and play.
Laser communications is one of the finest skill additions Palladium has made to its list over the years. Very nicely done.
Did you insert devices to be used with the skill?
Our Operator constructed that which he could not successfully scavenge.
Dog_O_War wrote:See the qualifier?
Usefullness of a skill is determined by our playing styles and the natures of our campaigns.
When we were a band of unarmed vagabonds wondering around Siberia not only were there some useless skills, there were some skills we were not even aware of existing....
My point was that you had to invent equipment in order to make a skill useful. The point was that right out of the gate, the skill lacks in uses - it is a useless skill. I mean I could invent a "Prostitute Negotiation" skill, and then specifically seek out
ladies of the night to validate my invention. But that doesn't mean that the skill [stock] is useful, which is the point of the thread.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:51 pm
by dark brandon
For the last couple of months, I've been working on a rifter article for these "useless" skills. In general, it's expanding and explaining them...inspired by fallout 3 and my want to make skills I think are useless. I make not that not everyone will find the article useful, especially those who don't think there is such thing as useless skill, but I think it'll be a good article for new players, young players and those who find some of the skills "useless" just outside of RP reasoning for them.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:59 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:My point was that you had to invent equipment in order to make a skill useful.
Inventing stuff? What Operator doesn't? That's part of being an Operator.
He breaks things apart and builds different things from those components.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:46 am
by Killer Cyborg
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:My point was that you had to invent equipment in order to make a skill useful.
Inventing stuff? What Operator doesn't? That's part of being an Operator.
He breaks things apart and builds different things from those components.
don't even start.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:54 am
by lather
Killer Cyborg wrote:lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:My point was that you had to invent equipment in order to make a skill useful.
Inventing stuff? What Operator doesn't? That's part of being an Operator.
He breaks things apart and builds different things from those components.
don't even start.
I don't see the problem.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:18 pm
by Killer Cyborg
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:My point was that you had to invent equipment in order to make a skill useful.
Inventing stuff? What Operator doesn't? That's part of being an Operator.
He breaks things apart and builds different things from those components.
don't even start.
I don't see the problem.
Which is why you shouldn't even start.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:13 pm
by lather
Because there's no actual problem
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:03 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Gypsy-Dancer wrote:lather wrote:Because there's no actual problem
Yes.
The problem is that Operators are super-mechanics, not inventors.
I'm guessing by lather's post, and your support, that you don't get the distinction, and that you still won't get it even if it's explained at great length.
I don't make this guess based on any judgments about the two of you, but rather on past experience with other people who had that same viewpoint.
Any way you slice it, it doesn't have much to do with this thread.
If you want to get into a stupidly long argument about the nature of invention and to what agree Operators are capable of it, go ahead and start a new thread.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:59 am
by lather
They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class. Anybody who claims that invention and innovation are not a part of the Operator class clearly don't understand the class.
As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.
No need for a big long conversation.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:45 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class. Anybody who claims that invention and innovation are not a part of the Operator class clearly don't understand the class.
As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.
No need for a big long conversation.
Let's just say that inventing items is one thing, and a topic for another thread. The point I was making is that if you were to look through the dozens and dozens of sourcebooks for Rifts, how many items in them validate the use of the skill? (since it is equipment-based).
Now assuming no Operators were present (or any other mechanically-inclined inventors for that matter); how much use will the skill see then?
Without exploring further into the "well I can invent X", the skill does not see that much use. Which I think is a problem. There are two solutions to this problem that can be issued formally; create more items for the skill to be used with, or remove the skill.
The general concensus of the thread is to add more stuff and thus validate the use for such skills, but I am of the mind that we should just "trim the fat" and get rid of skills like this. It'd be of far greater advantage for the option of laser communications to simply be handled under another skill (for when its use does come up), rather than drown the players in potentially pointless and/or overwhelming skill diversity.
That is, players can only select X number of skills. We don't expect that they should be able to do everything, but let's not force them to take minor skills for diversity when the above is better lumped under another skill for usefulness.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:52 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:The point I was making is that if you were to look through the dozens and dozens of sourcebooks for Rifts, how many items in them validate the use of the skill? (since it is equipment-based).
How many do you need? SCUBA is equipment based but do you have a problem with the utter lack of SCUBA gear?
Furthermore,
laser communications is not equipment based. It's based on using light to send a message. Since it's not equipment based, the rest of your post falls apart.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:22 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:The point I was making is that if you were to look through the dozens and dozens of sourcebooks for Rifts, how many items in them validate the use of the skill? (since it is equipment-based).
How many do you need? SCUBA is equipment based but do you have a problem with the utter lack of SCUBA gear?
Furthermore,
laser communications is not equipment based. It's based on using light to send a message. Since it's not equipment based, the rest of your post falls apart.
SCUBA is based on swimming underwater (re: diving). It encompasses more than just equipment, there-by validating its use. The use of laser communication is based solely on equipment; as in "you need equipment to use this skill". You don't need equipment to use SCUBA, though its use does become more limited without it.
If you actually grasped the full meaning of my post, you would know that it does not fall apart (I mean no offense by this, I only ask that you read it more carefully and consider all the options).
Besides this, how do you know that I believe that SCUBA is better left as a proficiency-type skill, instead of a percentile? That infact I believe its uses are limited as well?
What I'm driving at here is that there is more than just one skill, like laser communications which I believe is useless. Or rather, limited in uses, and thus better lumped under another skill.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:00 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:SCUBA is based on swimming underwater (re: diving). It encompasses more than just equipment, there-by validating its use. The use of laser communication is based solely on equipment; as in "you need equipment to use this skill". You don't need equipment to use SCUBA, though its use does become more limited without it.
You should probably learn about SCUBA and laser communications.
Try to dive to 125' without SCUBA gear some time and let me know if you don't need a
self-contained underwater breathing apparatus.Laser communications is not based on equipment. A society with weaponised lasers would have all that is needed in spades. Specifically, distributed feedback lasers, which in Rifts tech would be akin to simple light emitting diodes today.
Dog_O_War wrote:If you actually grasped the full meaning of my post, you would know that it does not fall apart (I mean no offense by this, I only ask that you read it more carefully and consider all the options).
If you actually grasped laser communications you would know that it does.
Dog_O_War wrote:Besides this, how do you know that I believe that SCUBA is better left as a proficiency-type skill, instead of a percentile? That infact I believe its uses are limited as well?
You may well believe it's limited, but that would be dictated by your campaign. Are you in space? Are you deep in the Gobi? Are you afraid of water? There's plenty of reasons why you might believe the skill is limited. But that is not the point here. I was responding to your assertion that laser communications is 'fat' to be trimmed; I tried with SCUBA to demonstrate that the amount of equipment available - or even required - is no measure of 'fat'.
Dog_O_War wrote:What I'm driving at here is that there is more than just one skill, like laser communications which I believe is useless. Or rather, limited in uses, and thus better lumped under another skill.
Lasers probably deserve more than just laser communications. After all, in a world like Rifts they're almost ubiquitous.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:48 pm
by Vrykolas2k
Killer Cyborg wrote:Gypsy-Dancer wrote:lather wrote:Because there's no actual problem
Yes.
The problem is that Operators are super-mechanics, not inventors.
I'm guessing by lather's post, and your support, that you don't get the distinction, and that you still won't get it even if it's explained at great length.
I don't make this guess based on any judgments about the two of you, but rather on past experience with other people who had that same viewpoint.
Any way you slice it, it doesn't have much to do with this thread.
If you want to get into a stupidly long argument about the nature of invention and to what agree Operators are capable of it, go ahead and start a new thread.
I'm going to respond to KC, then DoW...
First KC, yes Operators are super-mechanics... HOWEVER, how often are mechanical things invented by people who are or are not mechanics? So I say the idea of an Operator inventing things from time to time is plausible. Techno-Wizards invent stuff as well in this game, and I certainly wouldn't gripe about it.
Dog of War... have you ever gone SCUBA diving? You need your tanks and equipment to do so. You don't need them for snorkeling (all you need for that is a mask and snorkel, though fins are nice), nor for Japanese pearl diving, which I think are covered under swimming (at least I learned how to snorkel and use fins when I was 10, before I started learning SCUBA at 14); and SCUBA actually is a bit more involved than just strapping on your tanks and hopping in the water.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:27 am
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:SCUBA is based on swimming underwater (re: diving). It encompasses more than just equipment, there-by validating its use. The use of laser communication is based solely on equipment; as in "you need equipment to use this skill". You don't need equipment to use SCUBA, though its use does become more limited without it.
You should probably learn about SCUBA and laser communications.
Try to dive to 125' without SCUBA gear some time and let me know if you don't need a
self-contained underwater breathing apparatus.
Hold on a sec, I can't hear you over my DeeBee lungs or my friend casting a water-breathing spell
lather wrote:Laser communications is not based on equipment. A society with weaponised lasers would have all that is needed in spades. Specifically, distributed feedback lasers, which in Rifts tech would be akin to simple light emitting diodes today.
So in other words, you still require a physical object of an undisclosed nature. What shall we call this object?
I think that equipment is a suitable name.
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:If you actually grasped the full meaning of my post, you would know that it does not fall apart (I mean no offense by this, I only ask that you read it more carefully and consider all the options).
If you actually grasped laser communications you would know that it does.
I do - and it's apparent that you don't, with your above "I can use laser communications without devices!" comment.
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Besides this, how do you know that I believe that SCUBA is better left as a proficiency-type skill, instead of a percentile? That infact I believe its uses are limited as well?
You may well believe it's limited, but that would be dictated by your campaign. Are you in space? Are you deep in the Gobi? Are you afraid of water? There's plenty of reasons why you might believe the skill is limited. But that is not the point here. I was responding to your assertion that laser communications is 'fat' to be trimmed; I tried with SCUBA to demonstrate that the amount of equipment available - or even required - is no measure of 'fat'.
And you did not succeed in doing so. See, the point you've made here is that there are places where SCUBA equipment will be of no use.
What you've failed to realize is that laser communications does not have equipment in the first place. You can't use this
equipment-based skill without
equipment. This is what you're not understanding. You might very well have the skill at 1,000,000%, but without a laser-communications device, you're chance of success is a great as mine. I don't have the skill btw - that's a 0%.
Meanwhile if you did come across a body of water that was deep enough in the Gobi, guess what? SCUBA still works, despite the lack of equipment!
Or (more pointedly), in a campaign with lots of water, there is equipment available to be bought to use your SCUBA skill in conjunction with!
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:What I'm driving at here is that there is more than just one skill, like laser communications which I believe is useless. Or rather, limited in uses, and thus better lumped under another skill.
Lasers probably deserve more than just laser communications. After all, in a world like Rifts they're almost ubiquitous.
See the picture in my sig.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:30 am
by Dog_O_War
Vrykolas2k wrote:Dog of War... have you ever gone SCUBA diving?
Nope.
Vrykolas2k wrote:You need your tanks and equipment to do so. You don't need them for snorkeling (all you need for that is a mask and snorkel, though fins are nice), nor for Japanese pearl diving, which I think are covered under swimming (at least I learned how to snorkel and use fins when I was 10, before I started learning SCUBA at 14); and SCUBA actually is a bit more involved than just strapping on your tanks and hopping in the water.
I know. SCUBA offers that you know proper gas mixtures and such as well. What depths offer what mixtures are best, as well as other skills while under water (like dealing with pressure).
My point is that the skill itself (not the RL skill) covers more than just "using the equipment".
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:37 am
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Try to dive to 125' without SCUBA gear some time and let me know if you don't need a self-contained underwater breathing apparatus.
Hold on a sec, I can't hear you over my DeeBee lungs or my friend casting a water-breathing spell
Yes because every d-bee has gils or every human has mage friends.
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Laser communications is not based on equipment. A society with weaponised lasers would have all that is needed in spades. Specifically, distributed feedback lasers, which in Rifts tech would be akin to simple light emitting diodes today.
So in other words, you still require a physical object of an undisclosed nature. What shall we call this object?
I think that equipment is a suitable name.
It's not an object of undisclosed nature. It's a diode. Which is not equipment; it's a component of equipment. It's trivial for an electrical engineer to wire it all up and enclose it in plastic or to construct any number of laser communications equipment. The skill is not the
use of this equipment because a small user manual is sufficient for use, as opposed to SCUBA which requires training and certification to use the equipment. The laser communications skill is science-based, not equipment-based.
Dog_O_War wrote:And you did not succeed in doing so. See, the point you've made here is that there are places where SCUBA equipment will be of no use.
Yes and there are places were laser pistols are not used, places where armour is not used, places where grappling hooks are not used, places where flashlights are not used, etc. I'm not sure what you're driving at.
Dog_O_War wrote:Meanwhile if you did come across a body of water that was deep enough in the Gobi, guess what? SCUBA still works, despite the lack of equipment!
Interesting.
How does it work?
Dog_O_War wrote:Or (more pointedly), in a campaign with lots of water, there is equipment available to be bought to use your SCUBA skill in conjunction with!
It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or can't be constructed by people who understand photonics and optoelectronics - laser communications. See, that's the value of the skill. You can build equipment with it. Whereas a SCUBA diver can't build SCUBA gear.
And if you think the equipment doesn't already exist you may want to consider the existence of bar code scanners, retina scanners, portable dihilators, motion detectors, and plenty more I'm sure.
Dog_O_War wrote:See the picture in my sig.
Maybe I will. I currently have sigs and avatars disabled.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:37 am
by Killer Cyborg
lather wrote:They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class.
Where in the books does it say this?
Anybody who claims that invention and innovation are not a part of the Operator class clearly don't understand the class.
Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.
As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.
You just let PCs invent whatever the hell they feel like, whenever they feel like it?
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:46 am
by Killer Cyborg
Vrykolas2k wrote:First KC, yes Operators are super-mechanics... HOWEVER, how often are mechanical things invented by people who are or are not mechanics?
Not often.
They're invented by engineers and scientists.
They're repaired and modified by mechanics.
So I say the idea of an Operator inventing things from time to time is plausible.
It's a theoretical possibility, but not something that should be an assumed possibility.
New invention isn't easy or common; if it was, then there wouldn't be any ceiling on technology, people would just decide to invent new stuff all the time.
"Hey, I'm sick of cancer! I'm going to invent a cancer-zapping machine to get rid of it!""
"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
Invention takes a lot of time, research, resources, and luck.
It's possible to invent things, but not for just any mechanic, especially one who's traveling around adventuring all the time.
Techno-Wizards invent stuff as well in this game, and I certainly wouldn't gripe about it.
Only post-RUE.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50537
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:47 am
by lather
Killer Cyborg wrote:lather wrote:They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class.
Where in the books does it say this?
That part where it says they seek more knowledge about their craft - being mechanics and electronics. That's geeky. Also the last paragraph (perhaps even the last sentence you read about the class) of the O.C.C. summary says "inventive".
Killer Cyborg wrote:Anybody who claims that invention and innovation are not a part of the Operator class clearly don't understand the class.
Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.
That's the only way to invent something? Hardly.
Killer Cyborg wrote:As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.
You just let PCs invent whatever the hell they feel like, whenever they feel like it?
No and no. That would be silly.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:50 am
by lather
Killer Cyborg wrote:Vrykolas2k wrote:First KC, yes Operators are super-mechanics... HOWEVER, how often are mechanical things invented by people who are or are not mechanics?
Not often.
They're invented by engineers and scientists.
They're repaired and modified by mechanics.
Operators are electrical and mechanical engineers.
Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Invention takes a lot of time, research, resources, and luck.
It's possible to invent things, but not for just any mechanic, especially one who's traveling around adventuring all the time.
Where does the books say Operators are traveling and adventuring all the time?
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:09 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Vrykolas2k wrote:First KC, yes Operators are super-mechanics... HOWEVER, how often are mechanical things invented by people who are or are not mechanics?
Not often.
They're invented by engineers and scientists.
They're repaired and modified by mechanics.
Operators are electrical and mechanical engineers.
That's the difference between a designer and a repairman - not an inventor.
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
Obsurdity shows the weakness of the system. If the obsurd were not possible, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.
That it is only proves the obsurd's validity in the discussion.
That is, dismissing a single obsurd example does not dismiss the problem.
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Invention takes a lot of time, research, resources, and luck.
It's possible to invent things, but not for just any mechanic, especially one who's traveling around adventuring all the time.
Where does the books say Operators are traveling and adventuring all the time?
Where in the books does it say they aren't?
More pointedly, it does say that Operators tend to travel and work for X profits/discounts, so I suppose that supports them going either way - making the point moot.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:20 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
Obsurdity shows the weakness of the system. If the obsurd were not possible, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.
No. It just illustrates how retarded a GM must be to allow a character to invent a flying belt.
Dog_O_War wrote:More pointedly, it does say that Operators tend to travel and work for X profits/discounts, so I suppose that supports them going either way - making the point moot.
The claim is that they spend all their time traveling and adventuring. The book doesn't say they spend all their time traveling. It doesn't say how far afield they travel. It doesn't say how much of their time is spent traveling or adventuring.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:35 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
Obsurdity shows the weakness of the system. If the obsurd were not possible, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.
No. It just illustrates how retarded a GM must be to allow a character to invent a flying belt.
As opposed to computerless,
information-relaying diodes?
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:More pointedly, it does say that Operators tend to travel and work for X profits/discounts, so I suppose that supports them going either way - making the point moot.
The claim is that they spend all their time traveling and adventuring. The book doesn't say they spend all their time traveling. It doesn't say how far afield they travel. It doesn't say how much of their time is spent traveling or adventuring.
But it does say they travel. How much is entirely up to the GM -
making the point moot.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 pm
by lather
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
Obsurdity shows the weakness of the system. If the obsurd were not possible, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.
No. It just illustrates how retarded a GM must be to allow a character to invent a flying belt.
As opposed to computerless,
information-relaying diodes?
They exist today. They'd exist in spades in Rifts.
Dog_O_War wrote:lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:More pointedly, it does say that Operators tend to travel and work for X profits/discounts, so I suppose that supports them going either way - making the point moot.
The claim is that they spend all their time traveling and adventuring. The book doesn't say they spend all their time traveling. It doesn't say how far afield they travel. It doesn't say how much of their time is spent traveling or adventuring.
But it does say they travel. How much is entirely up to the GM -
making the point moot.
Actually, it's entirely up to the Player.
The Player plays the Character, playing the Character as inventive or as not inventive as he or she likes. The character may want to build a flying belt but isn't likely going to because it's absurd to try in the first place. Constructing a wireless communications network, however, is par for the Operator course.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:16 pm
by Killer Cyborg
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Vrykolas2k wrote:First KC, yes Operators are super-mechanics... HOWEVER, how often are mechanical things invented by people who are or are not mechanics?
Not often.
They're invented by engineers and scientists.
They're repaired and modified by mechanics.
Operators are electrical and mechanical engineers.
Arguably, since they have those skills.
But having those skills is not the only prerequisite for invention.
Kind of like how "Athletes" are the people who win olympic gold medals, but that doesn't mean that every athlete gets to.
Or even that most do.
Or even that many do.
Or that any can be
expected to.
Killer Cyborg wrote:"I'm sick of walking. I'm going to invent a flying belt!"
And so on.
So you're cherry picking the absurd. Got it.
I'm pointing out the absurdity of the notion that people can just invent new stuff whenever they want.
If you think that those inventions are absurd, that there are more reasonable inventions that any old Operator could be expected to come up with, let me know where you draw the line, and give some examples of the kinds of things that you think the average Operator should be able to invent.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Invention takes a lot of time, research, resources, and luck.
It's possible to invent things, but not for just any mechanic, especially one who's traveling around adventuring all the time.
Where does the books say Operators are traveling and adventuring all the time?
It doesn't say that they're traveling "all the time."
But it's implied that they do it often enough to be "adventurers."
And if you're spending years or decades of your life in a lab, trying to create new inventions, you're not an adventurer.
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:20 pm
by Killer Cyborg
lather wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:lather wrote:They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class.
Where in the books does it say this?
That part where it says they seek more knowledge about their craft - being mechanics and electronics. That's geeky.
No; that's inquisitive.
Also the last paragraph (perhaps even the last sentence you read about the class) of the O.C.C. summary says "inventive".
lol
Yeah, they use it once, in describing the personality of the class that is overall described as "a super-mechanic and repairman" who "can fix just about anything that has gears and wires."
They fix stuff, not invent it.
Though they may be inventive at times in their methods of repair.
Killer Cyborg wrote:There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.
That's the only way to invent something? Hardly.
Okay; name the other ways that characters can invent things in the game.
Then explain which of these methods the Operator uses.
Killer Cyborg wrote:As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.
You just let PCs invent whatever the hell they feel like, whenever they feel like it?
No and no. That would be silly.
So what were you saying there?
Re: Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:30 pm
by Dog_O_War
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:As opposed to computerless, information-relaying diodes?
They exist today. They'd exist in spades in Rifts.
Actually, those diodes relay information
sent by computers. Good luck relaying anything through them without one.
lather wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:But it does say they travel. How much is entirely up to the GM - making the point moot.
Actually, it's entirely up to the Player.
The Player plays the Character, playing the Character as inventive or as not inventive as he or she likes. The character may want to build a flying belt but isn't likely going to because it's absurd to try in the first place. Constructing a wireless communications network, however, is par for the Operator course.
You really, really need to look at the picture in my sig. It's describing my feelings perfectly as I read your post.