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eliakon wrote:

Reagren Wright wrote:If anyone has a RAW copy is there anything that excitings or really interesting?

The most exciting thing to my mind is that there is finally some sort of guidelines on making new talents other than "you can do it"
Its about as clear and concise (i.e. highly arbitrary and full of GM rulings) as the spell creation guidelines in Through the Glass Darkly, but it s a set of guidelines and as such is infinitely better than the non-existent guidelines we had before...

I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I think this is a good way of putting it.

The free preview has been posted.

Nightbane Dark Designs Sneak Preview

Warwolf,

I recently purchased Dark Designs raw, and have a few questions about it. Actually I have questions going back all the way to the first book and survival guide. I hope you can answer them.

On page 74 of survival guide you talk about the bonuses for an icon of faith. You list one of the bonuses as impervious to vampire bite and mind control; also on the extraterrestrial table and infernal table. Yet on page 87 of the original nightbane book, under number ‘5. Immunities,’ (one of 8 'natural powers of the nightbane' that begins on page 85) the description says that nightbane are immune to all forms of mind control, including vampire control. Are you retconning out their immunities or is this a mistake? If this is not a mistake can you tell me what else from their natural powers have changed/nerfed (page 85 and 87) from the original?

Iron Will is significantly inferior than Soul Shield in every way. Why would anyone even want to develop Iron Will when Soul Shield is so superior?

I see you nerfed Doorway significantly (or is the range reduction from a mile a mistake?), but you did not give it a new cost value. Or is it the same cost?

Except for the cost and the fact that you can carry others with you, Shadow Slide seems better/more versatile than Down the Drain.

In general, the talents and their costs seem a bit more expensive than previous books and in many cases have significantly shorter durations to comparable talents of the previous books. Is this due to the structure of the 'Talent Creation and Conversion guide?' It almost seems cheaper to modify talents from older books than making your own in some cases.

I like the concept of the Ancient Nightbane. I have questions about them as well:
1) Is an ancient considered a Greater Supernatural Entity?
2) Do they get free talents per level after 15?

Last question, random: Can nightbane have superpowers from heroes unlimited before their Becoming?

I know it's been a long time coming, but Dark Designs should be in the warehouse tomorrow if all has gone according to the latest plan. I know I'm excited to see it in physical form, are you? Since the book should ship soon, I thought I'd drop by and respond to a couple of posts.

Glistam wrote:Got my RAW preview edition today! I'm very excited!

Awesome! So what do you think?

eliakon wrote:I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I would be interested to know what you think is so heavily taken from other sources, because chances are a good deal of what you're seeing is parallel development. I remember Carmen Bellaire being accused of the same thing when Powers Unlimited came out...

Corren wrote:Warwolf,

I recently purchased Dark Designs raw, and have a few questions about it. Actually I have questions going back all the way to the first book and survival guide. I hope you can answer them.

I'll try.

Corren wrote:On page 74 of survival guide you talk about the bonuses for an icon of faith. You list one of the bonuses as impervious to vampire bite and mind control; also on the extraterrestrial table and infernal table. Yet on page 87 of the original nightbane book, under number ‘5. Immunities,’ (one of 8 'natural powers of the nightbane' that begins on page 85) the description says that nightbane are immune to all forms of mind control, including vampire control. Are you retconning out their immunities or is this a mistake? If this is not a mistake can you tell me what else from their natural powers have changed/nerfed (page 85 and 87) from the original?

That was something that was changed in editing. The raw version gave +2 to M.E., +2 to all saving throws, and could be used to repel the undead the same as any other holy symbol.

Corren wrote:Iron Will is significantly inferior than Soul Shield in every way. Why would anyone even want to develop Iron Will when Soul Shield is so superior?

I disagree. Soul Shield is better against psychic probes, but Iron Will also protects against pain, illusions, possession, insanity, etc. Not better or worse, just different.

Corren wrote:I see you nerfed Doorway significantly (or is the range reduction from a mile a mistake?), but you did not give it a new cost value. Or is it the same cost?

You misunderstand. The range isn't reduced, it's a question of how far away the Doorway can be created from the 'Bane. To put it another way, a doorway allows characters to travel to a location 1 mile away per 2 P.P.E. spent. Regardless of how far it allows the character to travel, the portal itself can be created up to 10 feet away from the character creating it per level. So the new range is for the opening itself, not the distance traversed.

Corren wrote:Except for the cost and the fact that you can carry others with you, Shadow Slide seems better/more versatile than Down the Drain.

It may seem that way, but Shadow Slide gets really expensive when used over long periods of time. Also, you shouldn't underestimate the capacity for others to travel with your character. For instance, think of a Conductor with the Underground Railroad. Say this Conductor is responsible for a safe-house with a few new Nightbane residing in it. Now what happens if this house is raided by the NSB and the kids don't have the ability to teleport, Shadow Slide, etc.? If the Conductor has Down the Drain they can run for the basement and evacuate everyone... see how that might be useful?

Corren wrote:In general, the talents and their costs seem a bit more expensive than previous books and in many cases have significantly shorter durations to comparable talents of the previous books. Is this due to the structure of the 'Talent Creation and Conversion guide?' It almost seems cheaper to modify talents from older books than making your own in some cases.

Keep in mind that I don't just write for the fans, I write for the editors as well. It seems pretty clear to me from past and current editing that the power levels of some of the early material won't cut it these days (hence why you won't see Vector in the finished book). It's the same reason why there are penalties for pretty much every Morphus feature now, to help balance out the abilities and bonuses they provide. Just look at the section that Kev wrote for the Survival Guide about limiting the bonuses of the Morphus. For better or worse (probably depending on your tastes), the dynamics of Nightbane have shifted slightly. I as a writer have to stay within the bounds I am given to the best of my ability.

Corren wrote:I like the concept of the Ancient Nightbane. I have questions about them as well:
1) Is an ancient considered a Greater Supernatural Entity?
2) Do they get free talents per level after 15?

1) I would call them greater supernatural beings to avoid confusion with ghosts, spirits, etc. But yeah, they can certainly be on-par with some tough customers.
2) No. For additional Talents, see the areas of focus under the Special Abilities and Bonuses section.

Corren wrote:Last question, random: Can nightbane have superpowers from heroes unlimited before their Becoming?

I answered that in the second-to-last Q&A about whether a Nightbane can be something like a Juicer or super-being.


Well, folks, that's it for now. I hope you guys enjoy the new book, it has certainly been a labor of love. Don't hesitate to drop me a line with any questions you might have or post them or your thoughts here.

Warwolf wrote:I know it's been a long time coming, but Dark Designs should be in the warehouse tomorrow if all has gone according to the latest plan. I know I'm excited to see it in physical form, are you? Since the book should ship soon, I thought I'd drop by and respond to a couple of posts.

Glistam wrote:Got my RAW preview edition today! I'm very excited!

Awesome! So what do you think?

Honestly, my initial impression was pretty "meh." The RAW preview was mostly new talents and making new talents, and none of them really grabbed me. I never felt like Nightbane was significantly deficient in that regard so to have a book that was 90% stuff I didn't feel was needed was kind of a let-down. I liked what there was outside of talents but it made the book seem really small/light to me.

That said, I do look forward to finally getting the finished version. Nightbane is one of my favorite settings and I'm pleased there's another book coming out for it. I recognize that although I wasn't looking for dozens of new talents, others were and I appreciate there's a book to fill that niche. I will still use it for the other information and who knows, after looking through the edited/official version, I may find I really like some of the new talents too - that will definitely change my opinion drastically.

Warwolf wrote:

eliakon wrote:I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I would be interested to know what you think is so heavily taken from other sources, because chances are a good deal of what you're seeing is parallel development. I remember Carmen Bellaire being accused of the same thing when Powers Unlimited came out...

<Snipped lots of replies to other people>

The most egregious example of the class was found on page 11 under Transformation Effects.

36-42% Gargoyle: The Nightbane momentarily freezes and takes on an earthen hue and seems to turn into a stone statue. A moment later, the thin, stone outer crust fractures and falls away to reveal the new form (human or Nightbane) waiting underneath. Nightbane whose Morphus casues them to grow in size or bulk may seem to erupt from the stone statue.

This is almost identical to the transformation sequence from the T.V. show Gargoyles. And it even has the same name. Since the show ran from 1994 to 1996 that means that the show was running for over a year before the first Nightbane was ever released!

Like I said "serial numbers"

eliakon wrote:

Warwolf wrote:

eliakon wrote:I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I would be interested to know what you think is so heavily taken from other sources, because chances are a good deal of what you're seeing is parallel development. I remember Carmen Bellaire being accused of the same thing when Powers Unlimited came out...

<Snipped lots of replies to other people>

The most egregious example of the class was found on page 11 under Transformation Effects.

36-42% Gargoyle: The Nightbane momentarily freezes and takes on an earthen hue and seems to turn into a stone statue. A moment later, the thin, stone outer crust fractures and falls away to reveal the new form (human or Nightbane) waiting underneath. Nightbane whose Morphus casues them to grow in size or bulk may seem to erupt from the stone statue.

This is almost identical to the transformation sequence from the T.V. show Gargoyles. And it even has the same name. Since the show ran from 1994 to 1996 that means that the show was running for over a year before the first Nightbane was ever released!

Like I said "serial numbers"

That was the most jarring one I noticed as well.
It was more notable to me as Palladium has an established species of Gargoyles that do not resemble such.

13eowulf wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Warwolf wrote:

eliakon wrote:I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I would be interested to know what you think is so heavily taken from other sources, because chances are a good deal of what you're seeing is parallel development. I remember Carmen Bellaire being accused of the same thing when Powers Unlimited came out...

<Snipped lots of replies to other people>

The most egregious example of the class was found on page 11 under Transformation Effects.

36-42% Gargoyle: The Nightbane momentarily freezes and takes on an earthen hue and seems to turn into a stone statue. A moment later, the thin, stone outer crust fractures and falls away to reveal the new form (human or Nightbane) waiting underneath. Nightbane whose Morphus casues them to grow in size or bulk may seem to erupt from the stone statue.

This is almost identical to the transformation sequence from the T.V. show Gargoyles. And it even has the same name. Since the show ran from 1994 to 1996 that means that the show was running for over a year before the first Nightbane was ever released!

Like I said "serial numbers"

That was the most jarring one I noticed as well.
It was more notable to me as Palladium has an established species of Gargoyles that do not resemble such.

You do realize that Disney's Gargoyles wasn't the first show to use such a transformation... or even the last to do so. In the pilot episodes of Justic Leage, the White Martian invasion vehicles "burst" out of meteorites and became engines of destruction... as just an example. Most recently in Avengers Assemble, you have humans being affected by the Terigen Mists (sp?) and transforming into cocoons and undergoing a metamorphosis to burst out as a new Inhuman. While the thematics may be very similar to the Gargoyle's show... such method of transformation is as old as history... more than a few Gods were said to have burst forth from various mediums from stone, metal or even ice.

Glistam wrote:

Warwolf wrote:I know it's been a long time coming, but Dark Designs should be in the warehouse tomorrow if all has gone according to the latest plan. I know I'm excited to see it in physical form, are you? Since the book should ship soon, I thought I'd drop by and respond to a couple of posts.

Glistam wrote:Got my RAW preview edition today! I'm very excited!

Awesome! So what do you think?

Honestly, my initial impression was pretty "meh." The RAW preview was mostly new talents and making new talents, and none of them really grabbed me. I never felt like Nightbane was significantly deficient in that regard so to have a book that was 90% stuff I didn't feel was needed was kind of a let-down. I liked what there was outside of talents but it made the book seem really small/light to me.

That said, I do look forward to finally getting the finished version. Nightbane is one of my favorite settings and I'm pleased there's another book coming out for it. I recognize that although I wasn't looking for dozens of new talents, others were and I appreciate there's a book to fill that niche. I will still use it for the other information and who knows, after looking through the edited/official version, I may find I really like some of the new talents too - that will definitely change my opinion drastically.

So I received my copy of the finished book, and I'm a lot more impressed with it now that it has cool art to help punctuate the endless tables.

Razorwing wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Warwolf wrote:

eliakon wrote:I am just wishing that the author had filed the serial numbers off of his sources of inspiration a bit more. A lot of them are... bad. As in "if I put it in the forums I would be flagged for violating the No Conversions policy" bad. But it is a new book, so that is 100% good.

I would be interested to know what you think is so heavily taken from other sources, because chances are a good deal of what you're seeing is parallel development. I remember Carmen Bellaire being accused of the same thing when Powers Unlimited came out...

<Snipped lots of replies to other people>

The most egregious example of the class was found on page 11 under Transformation Effects.

36-42% Gargoyle: The Nightbane momentarily freezes and takes on an earthen hue and seems to turn into a stone statue. A moment later, the thin, stone outer crust fractures and falls away to reveal the new form (human or Nightbane) waiting underneath. Nightbane whose Morphus casues them to grow in size or bulk may seem to erupt from the stone statue.

This is almost identical to the transformation sequence from the T.V. show Gargoyles. And it even has the same name. Since the show ran from 1994 to 1996 that means that the show was running for over a year before the first Nightbane was ever released!

Like I said "serial numbers"

That was the most jarring one I noticed as well.
It was more notable to me as Palladium has an established species of Gargoyles that do not resemble such.

You do realize that Disney's Gargoyles wasn't the first show to use such a transformation... or even the last to do so. In the pilot episodes of Justic Leage, the White Martian invasion vehicles "burst" out of meteorites and became engines of destruction... as just an example. Most recently in Avengers Assemble, you have humans being affected by the Terigen Mists (sp?) and transforming into cocoons and undergoing a metamorphosis to burst out as a new Inhuman. While the thematics may be very similar to the Gargoyle's show... such method of transformation is as old as history... more than a few Gods were said to have burst forth from various mediums from stone, metal or even ice.

Yes transformations are as old as story telling. No one is disputing that.
That though is not the issue here.
The issue is not the generic concept of transformations. It is not even the concept of cocoons/chrysalis that you burst out of.
The issue is that the specific "Transformation into stone then bursting out of it by things called Gargoyles" is pretty uniquely specific to the aforementioned Disney IP

Look at it from this point of view:

The show was on in the 90s... both first run and in syndication (and would be for years to come) making it something that many potential Nightbane would have watched. After Dark Day, when the number of active Nightbane shot up dramatically... some will have likely found themselves transforming into their Morphus in this way. How do you think they would refer to themselves before they were able to learn what they actually are? They would remember that show and think "Am I a Gargoyle?"

Even though their transformation is superficially similar to that show... it doesn't mean it is infringing on Disney's IP... only an idiot would mistake a Nightbane that transforms into stone for a few seconds (1 melee round or less) as a copy of the Gargoyles that change into stone at sunrise. It is more of a homage to such transformations... which are found throughout mythology. And while the transformation does say stone... I am guessing there aren't other transformations that do the same thing with other substances (since I don't have the book just yet to be sure), right?. I bring up that because perhaps stone doesn't quite fit a given Nightbane's thematic... but maybe another substance would... metal for a more robotic appearance... or ice for a more arctic look?

The point I am making is that the name of the transformation is meant to evoke a specific visual that many will understand. If he had called it bursting out... many might think the Morphus would be erupting out of the Façade more like the Alien chest bursters... or something similar. This name evokes a specific visual that people, including the characters themselves, would recognize easily... and something they would latch on to as a possible explanation for what they have become... at least until they learn otherwise. Just as beautiful Nightbane are called Kens and Barbies... Nightbane who transform like this are likely to be referred to as Gargoyles... by themselves and by others.

Razorwing wrote:Look at it from this point of view:

The show was on in the 90s... both first run and in syndication (and would be for years to come) making it something that many potential Nightbane would have watched. After Dark Day, when the number of active Nightbane shot up dramatically... some will have likely found themselves transforming into their Morphus in this way. How do you think they would refer to themselves before they were able to learn what they actually are? They would remember that show and think "Am I a Gargoyle?"

We are not inside the Nightbane universe though.
What we do inside the game at our table is not affected by IP rules and it doesn't matter if we copy sources.
When professionally publishing material though it does.

Razorwing wrote:Even though their transformation is superficially similar to that show... it doesn't mean it is infringing on Disney's IP... only an idiot would mistake a Nightbane that transforms into stone for a few seconds (1 melee round or less) as a copy of the Gargoyles that change into stone at sunrise. It is more of a homage to such transformations... which are found throughout mythology. And while the transformation does say stone... I am guessing there aren't other transformations that do the same thing with other substances (since I don't have the book just yet to be sure), right?. I bring up that because perhaps stone doesn't quite fit a given Nightbane's thematic... but maybe another substance would... metal for a more robotic appearance... or ice for a more arctic look?

You don't have to be "an idiot" to read the name, then look at the transformation description and realize that the sequence is the exact same sequence used by the creatures of the same name. This is especially true since the only place where gargoyles are associated with this sort of sequence and transformation are Disney. Palladium's gargoyles do not have those connections and connotations which means that it cant be from palladiums own sources.
So yes, if it is directly derivative of someone else's IP down to using the same name...

Razorwing wrote:The point I am making is that the name of the transformation is meant to evoke a specific visual that many will understand. If he had called it bursting out... many might think the Morphus would be erupting out of the Façade more like the Alien chest bursters... or something similar. This name evokes a specific visual that people, including the characters themselves, would recognize easily... and something they would latch on to as a possible explanation for what they have become... at least until they learn otherwise. Just as beautiful Nightbane are called Kens and Barbies... Nightbane who transform like this are likely to be referred to as Gargoyles... by themselves and by others.

There are a few problems with this
The first is that “Barbie” and “Ken” have entered the English language already as descriptive words. They have linguistic connotations already and thus their use in books is not use of Mattel’s IP. This is not the same though for things that are not vernacular.
The second is that there are a lot more names available than just “gargoyle” and “burster”. It could have been “Stoner” or “Sculptor” or “Statue” or “Stone Head” or “Granite” or any number of things. The choice of name and description though was a deliberate choice. That implies that it was, as I said, something deliberately and consciously being emulated from another souce. And as I said previously the serial numbers ended up showing.

eliakon wrote:That implies that it was, as I said, something deliberately and consciously being emulated from another souce. And as I said previously the serial numbers ended up showing.

There's a small problem with your theory, old chap. That isn't what first inspired the concept. It was actually inspired by a random occurrence in the game Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. In that game, the character would turn into a statue when struck by certain creatures/powers. On rare occasion, instead of being a copy of the character model it would be a giant (awesome looking) gargoyle. You then had to rock the character back and forth to break out of the shell and be able to move again. So, while there may be a resemblance to another I.P. does not mean that it has been taken directly from it.

Try to remember that all works of fiction are derivative in many ways from past works. Heck, even the Bible includes elements of fables from cultures that predate it. Transformation into a stone gargoyle (which actually is tied with Palladium's gargoyles, by the way) is a general enough element that many works of fiction in numerous mediums have used it without suit being filed. Thus, I figured it was pretty safe to assume its use in Dark Designs wouldn't infringe on any other I.P.s.