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anapuna wrote:that is why they should put out a rules compendium and be done with it. this is a complete collection of rules and maybe some edits but leave the WBs alone and now i only add one more book to my shelf instead of a whole new shelf.
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the previous post sounds nice but the economy sucks and i am really poor. i can not afford another shelf. space wise, the hassle when i game or move, and money wise. they better put out PDFs at 1/2 price. other wise i am sticking with 1.0 . it is not that broken and i can afford it since i already own it.
30 WBs +
9 DBs +
2 mercs +
8 adventur/index +
3 conversion +
2 fat reference +
7 seige tolkeen +
6 source books +
1 main book +
1 RUE
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69 RIFTS books---------also add for all the crossovers and references to ...

3 TMNTs
1 SYSfailure +
19 robotech/macross +
1 recon +
18 PF +
1 nin&spy +
1 MC +
4 NB +
1 mechinoid which is 3 books +
11 HU2/AU
5 compendiums +
3 CE +
1 BTS +
3 ATB +
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72 non rifts books
55 rifters +
69 RIFTS books+
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196 palladium books

that is one freakin loyal fan. do you want them to 2.0 68 rifts book? that will now be incompatible with the other 72 nonrifts books and 55 rifters? the rifters i can ignore for argument sake. are they going to 2.0 the other 72 books so i can bring them back in. the HU2/AU books are considered sourcebooks for RIFTS DIMENSION books. they are the rest of space. also they are creation guides and additional D-bees for RIFTS. ATB 2nd ed is a good mutant maker for rifts. just remove some of the cheesy mutant powers.

i am quite entrenched in the number of books and the mechanics. i don't mind a compendium of rules to tie it all together and even stream line some of the mechanics. but changing the whole engine under the hood. would kill me. i cant afford it. it took me 10+ years to amass this.
oh yeah i forgot the dead reign series. i am letting a friend borrow it for a few days to read up and he might GM it. so even more books. and i don't even have every book!!!!!

so i vote for some housekeeping but no rifts 2.0/2nd ed or whatever. just a rules compendium. i can afford that. not 145 books.

And your collection of books aren't going to go anywhere. I've still got an entire shelf of 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons books, and I still use them even though 4.0 is the product line they are currently pushing. Heck, I know people who still play 2.0 dungeons and dragons! Also, all that content from the previous palladium rifts would still be useful even if they update the system, because largely the ideas behind all that content can be carried over to a new edition.

anapuna wrote:that is why they should put out a rules compendium and be done with it. this is a complete collection of rules and maybe some edits but leave the WBs alone and now i only add one more book to my shelf instead of a whole new shelf.
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the previous post sounds nice but the economy sucks and i am really poor. i can not afford another shelf. space wise, the hassle when i game or move, and money wise. they better put out PDFs at 1/2 price. other wise i am sticking with 1.0 . it is not that broken and i can afford it since i already own it.
30 WBs +
9 DBs +
2 mercs +
8 adventur/index +
3 conversion +
2 fat reference +
7 seige tolkeen +
6 source books +
1 main book +
1 RUE
-----------------------
69 RIFTS books---------also add for all the crossovers and references to ...

3 TMNTs
1 SYSfailure +
19 robotech/macross +
1 recon +
18 PF +
1 nin&spy +
1 MC +
4 NB +
1 mechinoid which is 3 books +
11 HU2/AU
5 compendiums +
3 CE +
1 BTS +
3 ATB +
-----------------------
72 non rifts books
55 rifters +
69 RIFTS books+
-----------------------
196 palladium books

that is one freakin loyal fan. do you want them to 2.0 68 rifts book? that will now be incompatible with the other 72 nonrifts books and 55 rifters? the rifters i can ignore for argument sake. are they going to 2.0 the other 72 books so i can bring them back in. the HU2/AU books are considered sourcebooks for RIFTS DIMENSION books. they are the rest of space. also they are creation guides and additional D-bees for RIFTS. ATB 2nd ed is a good mutant maker for rifts. just remove some of the cheesy mutant powers.

i am quite entrenched in the number of books and the mechanics. i don't mind a compendium of rules to tie it all together and even stream line some of the mechanics. but changing the whole engine under the hood. would kill me. i cant afford it. it took me 10+ years to amass this.
oh yeah i forgot the dead reign series. i am letting a friend borrow it for a few days to read up and he might GM it. so even more books. and i don't even have every book!!!!!

so i vote for some housekeeping but no rifts 2.0/2nd ed or whatever. just a rules compendium. i can afford that. not 145 books.

Yes but take a look at the current trend of book revision. Revisions mean your books are out of date for materiel and anything changed in the revised null voids your older version. Plus you don't get the additional info nor updated timeline. So sure your books are still semi valid but most people i think want the up to date books with rules.

And yes that is alot of books to have in your collection, and i whole heartedly agree that they really need to go to pdf because i stopped lugging the enormous boxes of books with me a long time and just use homemake pdfs. They are moving much to slow in this department.

Part of the problem with all the books (Rifts) is that many of the tech, weapons, armor, gear ext really need a stat overhall, and updates.

I have almost all the Rifts books that i have now purchased twice, but i am more than willing and think it needs to be done is a whole new system of books.

I love Rifts alot, but when PB asked for help, my mentality is if they want my money and help then offer me something good to buy. A 2nd system brings them in a whole new profit, allows them to get some of the new generation gamers to jump in because face it, Rifts is a dying system when you consider how few retailers are now carrying it. Just because we are the old gamers that have been with Rifts for a long time, doesn't mean the company shouldn't be looking to attract the new generation that is going to pick up and continue PB's game line for the future. So sux that our books era will come to an end, but i can't see how PB wouldn't do it for it's own survival.

If PB doesn't do a new updated system and things stay the same way they are, which is in decline for them, then i give them 15 years of life before the last exhale leaves the corpse.

Rolling Bear wrote:

Supergyro wrote: My favorite example is "Burster #1 wants to set something on fire while Burster #2 wants to stop Burster #1". This is a very possible situation, but the Palladium system has no way to handle it and very few good guidelines on how to invent a way.
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Wouldn't it just be a save roll? Burster one starts fire, Burster 2 has to put it out, Burster 1 rolls save vs psionics to see if he can maintain the fire. There problem solved.

Kind of makes my point for me...

Burster #1 rolls the save? Does level matter? Using the above mechanic, a level 1 burster has a pretty good shot of putting out the fire of a level 15 burster... does that feel right? How about ISP? Should a burster who has only a few ISP left have a harder time than one who's got a full load of ISP?

It has perhaps also the other major major flaw.... nowhere in the book does it suggest this mechanic, you're shooting from the hip, and the reason the shooting from the hip is needed because the system has gaping holes in it.

Supergyro wrote: Using the above mechanic, a level 1 burster has a pretty good shot of putting out the fire of a level 15 burster... does that feel right?

Not really, but it's not a huge deal.

How about ISP? Should a burster who has only a few ISP left have a harder time than one who's got a full load of ISP?

Only in that he'll run out of psychic ammo first.

It has perhaps also the other major major flaw.... nowhere in the book does it suggest this mechanic, you're shooting from the hip, and the reason the shooting from the hip is needed because the system has gaping holes in it.

Bursters have one power that can create fires. They have another power that puts out fires.
What don't you get?

I don't understand why some think that if they release a new updated system that the old books are no longer usable. You can still use the old books. KS and the rest of those who work at PB are not going to raid your home and burn all your books so that you have to buy the newer ones. Those who refuse to get the new system are out of luck when it comes to the newer books yet they have never released a new edtion in the long years of the company existence. They have said they are making less profit and attracting less fans with the system as is. It's not exactly fair to say don't update and keep losing money.

I agreed that a rules compendium would be great. I would love to see some optional and house rules in print. While I don't Think the rules as is are in need of a new edition. I love options. Personally I don't care for percentile based skill systems. That doesn't mean they don't work. I just don't care for them. I would love to see a skill system based attribute rolls like castles and crusades. On my blog I'm looking at those options. I don't expect every one to agree with me. And I don't think palladium should change a game because I don't like something.

Not having a rule for every possible action and reaction doesn't mean a system is broken or incomplete. As a GM that is kind of your job to decide if something is a save roll or a skill roll. If one ability cancels out another ability. I for one don't need a game designer telling me how to run every single situation. If you do need a rules for every single possible action, then when it comes up make a ruling and write it down....there now you have a rule to govern that situation. Next time it comes up you know how to handle it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Bursters have one power that can create fires. They have another power that puts out fires.
What don't you get?

The fact that these powers are written without any way to oppose one another... unless of course you follow the rule of "Whichever power goes *last*" (the only in-game interpretation), but that leads to the following..

Attack #1...Level 15 Burster erupts flames.

Attack #2, level 1 Burster, puts him out, for 4 isp (a Level 1 burster is going to have 80 or more ISP... so 4 isp is not a big expenditure)

Attack #3, level 15 burster erupts flames again....

Attack #4, level 1 Burster puts him out again...

Assuming the level 1 Burster has average ISP, he and the level 15 guy will go back and forth around 20 times like this, yes, at the end the level 15 guy will have isp left and the level 1 guy wont... but this 'battle of wills' takes literally 20 exchanges or more and involves the level 15 burster getting extinguished by the level 1 burster around 20 times over the course of multiple combat rounds where neither is doing anything other than lighting and extinguishing......

Which is stupid.

A more solid system would involve some sort of opposed roll, something that's level, mental endurance, possibly ISP dependent and is settled in one attack round or less. Most major systems currently on the market work this way, which makes opposing rolls a cinch.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Supergyro wrote: Using the above mechanic, a level 1 burster has a pretty good shot of putting out the fire of a level 15 burster... does that feel right?

Not really, but it's not a huge deal.

[quote]

The player of a level 15 Burster sure as anything would like to be able to avoid being counteracted by a level 1 newbie, it's difficult to imagine anyone getting up to level 15 who, upon being countermanded by a level 1 NPC and a GM with a snarky attitude, wouldn't think 'this system needs some work'.

It's not the only place, Rifts has many places where levels and abilities are negated completely by poorly written rules (Psionics are poor, the skill system is atrocious for this, and magic also has many problems here too), and a reboot could address and fix these things.

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Supergyro wrote: Using the above mechanic, a level 1 burster has a pretty good shot of putting out the fire of a level 15 burster... does that feel right?

Not really, but it's not a huge deal.

The player of a level 15 Burster sure as anything would like to be able to avoid being counteracted by a level 1 newbie, it's difficult to imagine anyone getting up to level 15 who, upon being countermanded by a level 1 NPC and a GM with a snarky attitude, wouldn't think 'this system needs some work'.

Anybody who didn't go into the game with a preconception that low-level characters are supposed to be completely overpowered in every arena by high-level characters.

It's not the only place, Rifts has many places where levels and abilities are negated completely by poorly written rules (Psionics are poor, the skill system is atrocious for this, and magic also has many problems here too), and a reboot could address and fix these things.

I agree that many of the rules are poorly written, and that a reboot could fix many, many issues.
On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.
In Rifts, a level 1 Glitter Boy is still likely to tear up a level 15 Glitter Boy in a fight, though he'll probably come out the loser.
This is not a flaw so much as a feature.
Though I would agree that they should be more organized about their approach.

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there, or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there,

A +1 to damage doesn't matter very much either, but it's nice to have them.

or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

I think I get where you're coming from, but is that really the only way you can see it?

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

The payoff is roleplaying.
You get that as soon as you start playing.
I agree that things should be streamlined and easier, but I don't understand the obsession with leveling.
It's nice to go up levels, but it's not the point of the game, not in Rifts, not that I'm aware of.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there,

A +1 to damage doesn't matter very much either, but it's nice to have them.

or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

I think I get where you're coming from, but is that really the only way you can see it?

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

The payoff is roleplaying.
You get that as soon as you start playing.
I agree that things should be streamlined and easier, but I don't understand the obsession with leveling.
It's nice to go up levels, but it's not the point of the game, not in Rifts, not that I'm aware of.

The old Marvel Super Heroes RPG had a similar problem, pretty much what you started with for stats and powers is what you had as advancing was very difficult so what you rolled up for your character was pretty much it. Didn't stop it's fans from loving the game and still be playing it nearly 20 years after the last book was published. Rifts gives you good options for RP and not having to follow the AD&D or MMORG dynamic of starting out fighting grasshoppers until you get enough levels you can fight cats you can start out rough and tough.

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there, or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

Now every time this phrase comes up in relation to Palladium characters I get confused...
just what do you mean by labor intensive?
Character generation has never taken me more than one hour and typically only takes 15 minutes. This seems to be the standard for any game system (in my experience). Level up takes at its longest 15 minutes and typically only takes roughly 5 minutes. Again in my experience this is the hobby standard.

I like that about rifts. I like the fact that there is not a lot of power bloat as you level. Unlike some games where at level 1 an ally cat could do you in and at level 10 you can go toe to toe with a dragon or two.

I cant see being an average joe being any fun in rifts.

I always liked that even if my group was level 5 I could bring in a new player with his level one character and he could hold his own. In rifts level feels more like experience level not power level. I don't have to adjust every encounter to the level of the party.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there, or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

Now every time this phrase comes up in relation to Palladium characters I get confused...
just what do you mean by labor intensive?
Character generation has never taken me more than one hour and typically only takes 15 minutes. This seems to be the standard for any game system (in my experience). Level up takes at its longest 15 minutes and typically only takes roughly 5 minutes. Again in my experience this is the hobby standard.

my group and I always have fun with one night of creating characters for a upcoming game, order pizza get sodas and beer and my get in a short adventure to set the stage for the upcoming adventure.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there, or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

Now every time this phrase comes up in relation to Palladium characters I get confused...
just what do you mean by labor intensive?
Character generation has never taken me more than one hour and typically only takes 15 minutes. This seems to be the standard for any game system (in my experience). Level up takes at its longest 15 minutes and typically only takes roughly 5 minutes. Again in my experience this is the hobby standard.

To me labour intensive is it is alot of work to create many characters in Rifts. You prolly know the system over all pretty well but to a new person it is astounding. Then there is what kind of games / characters you play, as the mid to high strength games will be utilizing alot more features from multiple books. Then there is rules governing what your character can do, which may be spread out amongst multiple books.

You need to look up what your stat bonuses equate to, you need to be able to show where all your bonuses come from, what your ranged attack bonus is, your melee attack bonus, str chart depending on what cat you are in, the list goes on. Other systems you need to do simular things to this but many newer systems it is alot easier to get this info, and alot of the time there is a simple formula to figureing out your bonus, you don't have multiple strike bonuses to figure out, why PP doesn't follow suit to adding to ranged ext. I can make a character in other newer systems much faster than i can Rifts as i need to index multiple books and look many things up on charts ext that take more time in Rifts than other more streamlined systems.

More general note;
One of the things i feel is killing PB's success is they are holding on to the current system with a death grip so not to alienate some of thier long time customers. That is a mistake, because without new customers they aren't keeping a larger customer base, they are out of the limelight as many game shops choose not to carry thier product anymore which goes hand in hand with not reaching out to get new generations of gamers to continue the popularity of a game.

The reason thier profits keep shrinking is because they aren't getting new customers, the system doesn't compare well in a new gen gamers mind compared to other newer systems out there, it is alot more work and the system has alot of issues, and i mean alot more issues than newer game systems out there tend to have.

I'm one of the vet gamers of PB, but it is also my kind of gamer that keeps PB holding on, but at the same time many of us that would hold angst against PB for a new system are killing the system.

A new system would cause some of thier customers to not be customers, but many of the current customers would buy the next edition of the system, as well as a new system that is more streamlined would attract new gamers, and i'm thinking it would encourage game shops to once again start carrying a new Rifts system. So if a new system would cause PB to lose some of it's customers, i definately think it would be worth it for how many new or rehashed gamers would become customers.

SamtheDagger wrote:

Nether wrote:

SamtheDagger wrote:I will simply post here that I am entirely opposed to a new version of Rifts if it makes all of my World Books, Conversion Books, Adventure Guides, and others obsolete. One of my favorite things about Palladium is that they have never required you to buy a whole brank-spanking new shelf of books just to play a new edition of their games. As long as there is backwards-compatibility, I don't care whether Rifts gets a new edition, but I think the system plays just fine as it is.

What do you think is already happening with the revised books?

In order to have up to date books and all the adjusted info you have to buy the revised books as well. Well instead of getting a fully revised for system 2.0 which uses a udated system to begin with, instead you get to buy revised books that only have a handful of pages that are added or different and with a bit more content. So now you can havea shelf full of say 30-40 rifts books, and eventually you can add a shelf to have another 30-40 rifts books that are the revised versions.

You might be against PB giving you a 2nd edition because it might invalidate your stash of books, but really how it hurts a company to not reinvent some of thier material and upgrade it so that they can keep on selling product to stay in business.

I think the company is well within it's right and has given it's fans a long run on the current system, but now they need to step out of the past and into the now with newer books, products and a system 2.0. Many of us want it, and it will make us happy while making PB some much needed profits not to mention a breath of fresh air that game stores would be more likely to pick up a new edition vs dead old one.

1) The revised books actually contain new content and cut out some of the old. While I would prefer a Vampire Kingdoms 2 World Book over a Vampire Kingdoms revised book, I am not strictly opposed to their current policy on revised editions because they aren't the kind of revisions that invalidate old content.
2) The actual number of books that have been revised is very small in comparison to the Palladium Books library.
3) I would rather they keep putting out sourcebooks that advance the Palladium storyline, develop new areas of the settings, and introduce new rules like new magic systems, OCCs, and of course, monsters. I continue to buy their new products because they keep coming out with good ideas.

Colt47 wrote:And your collection of books aren't going to go anywhere. I've still got an entire shelf of 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons books, and I still use them even though 4.0 is the product line they are currently pushing. Heck, I know people who still play 2.0 dungeons and dragons! Also, all that content from the previous palladium rifts would still be useful even if they update the system, because largely the ideas behind all that content can be carried over to a new edition.

I think you missed the point. I like more sourcebooks for the game system I am currently playing. I keep buying them. Keep 'em coming. Don't do an edition switch on me and end the run of the game I like to play.

New source books don't bring in new customers. They don't address the breaks in the current system, nor compete with streamlined newer system. The thing i find with my younger gamers in my groups is they want quicker resolution to actions, as in not taking 3 hours to play out 5 minutes of combat, but more like 20 min to play out the same game spans or less.

The only people that i have seen post against a new system on these boards have been the people that are vets and have been playing this game for many years and know it very well.

Sureshot wrote:I don't understand why some think that if they release a new updated system that the old books are no longer usable. You can still use the old books. KS and the rest of those who work at PB are not going to raid your home and burn all your books so that you have to buy the newer ones. Those who refuse to get the new system are out of luck when it comes to the newer books yet they have never released a new edtion in the long years of the company existence. They have said they are making less profit and attracting less fans with the system as is. It's not exactly fair to say don't update and keep losing money.

Kami forbid that company wants not invalidate their old books, because I tell you what Palladium keep a stock of those old books, they have an interest in not making that product void. I mentioned this several time it ignored in every thread but it is VERY important to remember!

Killer Cyborg wrote:A +1 to damage doesn't matter very much either, but it's nice to have them.

Sometimes that +1 is barely worth the ink needed to print it and not worth the time it takes to page through the books in order to determine that you have now obtained it at level 4.

And some things are useless, like that 1D6 kick attack you get from hand-hand expert at level 5, but if you took Gymnastics, you have that 2d4 kick attack from level 1, but no worries, you may not have taken gymnastics, and your punch is 1D4, so that extra, on average, point of damage may be useful, but it's SDC damage, so it's needlessly complicated and kind of useless at the same time....

The page-scavenger hunt that is levelling in Palladium is particularly annoying when you see the page and see that this is yet another level where you either get nothing or worse, get something useless.

Unless you're fighting vampires while wearing wooden clogs, at which point it's a *lifesaver*.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think I get where you're coming from, but is that really the only way you can see it?

Yes, cost/benefit. If the cost (time investment required) is high, then the benefit (fun) should be high.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The payoff is roleplaying.
You get that as soon as you start playing.

Roleplaying is what happens when you're not levelling. If levelling is time intensive and complex (because, for example, your Hand-hand level bonuses are on page 37, your weapon proficiency bonuses are on 32, your skill bonuses are all different, and require going through pages 25-33 as you level up each skill *individually*, your OCC level bonuses are on whatever page your OCC is on, and don't forget page 9, where you get that all important 1D6 HP's per level, if your character has power armor, magic, or psionics, then there are more pages to go through as you determine the minor modifications to your spells/power armor because maybe you got a +1 to strike at level 2 and maybe you didn't), then it should have a large payoff (your character is markedly improved once you've gone through all that page flipping). If, however, after all that page flipping, all you've done is used up a bunch of ink and not really changed anything very much, you've just lost a lot of time you could have spent roleplaying.

Sit a new person down and show them how to level up a character, their head will spin. This is a problem fewer and fewer games have as unified systems make levelling simpler and more intuitive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I agree that things should be streamlined and easier, but I don't understand the obsession with leveling.
It's nice to go up levels, but it's not the point of the game, not in Rifts, not that I'm aware of.

It's not an obsession, it's just a place where the Palladium system is particularly weak, and I think a new system should hypothetically address where the previous one is weak.

I do sometimes wax-poetic, but that's because the image of wooden clog wearing Scandinavian girls kickdancing vampires to death amuses me greatly, Jah!

Nether wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:On the other hand, Palladium's system, especially Rifts, is front-loaded for the most part. You start off about as powerful as you're going to get in many ways, or the power you gain isn't necessarily that connected to leveling.

This is not a flaw so much as a feature.

If levels don't matter very much, they shouldn't be there, or at least the experience and levelling system should be very quick and simple (which it currently isn't).

A game that requires a large time expenditure to give experience and a labor intensive levelling up system (as you figure out the skill bonuses, different for every skill, the 1d6 hp, any occ bonuses, and figure out whether you get that all important +1 or not to your strike bonus when you're using daggers) should have a large payoff when you're done, instead of a lot of book looking, number crunching, only to realize that after all that pencilling that the character is pretty much the same.

Being 'top loaded' *and* 'labor intensive' is not a feature, it's a flaw.

Now every time this phrase comes up in relation to Palladium characters I get confused...
just what do you mean by labor intensive?
Character generation has never taken me more than one hour and typically only takes 15 minutes. This seems to be the standard for any game system (in my experience). Level up takes at its longest 15 minutes and typically only takes roughly 5 minutes. Again in my experience this is the hobby standard.

To me labour intensive is it is alot of work to create many characters in Rifts. You prolly know the system over all pretty well but to a new person it is astounding. Then there is what kind of games / characters you play, as the mid to high strength games will be utilizing alot more features from multiple books. Then there is rules governing what your character can do, which may be spread out amongst multiple books.

You need to look up what your stat bonuses equate to, you need to be able to show where all your bonuses come from, what your ranged attack bonus is, your melee attack bonus, str chart depending on what cat you are in, the list goes on. Other systems you need to do simular things to this but many newer systems it is alot easier to get this info, and alot of the time there is a simple formula to figureing out your bonus, you don't have multiple strike bonuses to figure out, why PP doesn't follow suit to adding to ranged ext. I can make a character in other newer systems much faster than i can Rifts as i need to index multiple books and look many things up on charts ext that take more time in Rifts than other more streamlined systems.

More general note;
One of the things i feel is killing PB's success is they are holding on to the current system with a death grip so not to alienate some of thier long time customers. That is a mistake, because without new customers they aren't keeping a larger customer base, they are out of the limelight as many game shops choose not to carry thier product anymore which goes hand in hand with not reaching out to get new generations of gamers to continue the popularity of a game.

The reason thier profits keep shrinking is because they aren't getting new customers, the system doesn't compare well in a new gen gamers mind compared to other newer systems out there, it is alot more work and the system has alot of issues, and i mean alot more issues than newer game systems out there tend to have.

I'm one of the vet gamers of PB, but it is also my kind of gamer that keeps PB holding on, but at the same time many of us that would hold angst against PB for a new system are killing the system.

A new system would cause some of thier customers to not be customers, but many of the current customers would buy the next edition of the system, as well as a new system that is more streamlined would attract new gamers, and i'm thinking it would encourage game shops to once again start carrying a new Rifts system. So if a new system would cause PB to lose some of it's customers, i definately think it would be worth it for how many new or rehashed gamers would become customers.

some people dont like change, most game shops now carry computers for that bastard rpg game World of Warcraft, and clueless , if the same person comes in once a month and asked PB and leaves emptied handed , well that is a lose sale

Saitou Hajime wrote:Kami forbid that company wants not invalidate their old books, because I tell you what Palladium keep a stock of those old books, they have an interest in not making that product void. I mentioned this several time it ignored in every thread but it is VERY important to remember!

I heard you no need to repeat it. It may not be possible to do so. In a perfect world it would be possible to have a new edtion while not invalidating the previous one. Unfortunaterly we do not live in a perfect world. If they can update the system while making it backwards compitable more power to them. If not I see no reason why the should keep losing profit by keeping the old one in print. Do not get me wrong I would rather they not invalidate the older books. Yet if PB needs to do so to survive then they have to what needs to be done.

Would a simple clean up with backward compatibility be enough for those crusading for a change in the system? And If it is a huge change what percentage of current players do you think it would turn away.

Why would you take the chance of turning away die hard fans for the possibility of gaining new fans.
After all from the looks of it those diehards are the only reason the game is still alive today.

Personally I think just the cleaning up of a lot of the newer games is great. Chaos earth looks great on the inside, I love how is laid out.

I think some people calling out for a new system are really calling out for more detail. They want a rule for every possible action and reaction. Which really could be added with out changing what is already written. Although If you understand that palladium is really an old school system that leaves a lot of those rules up to the GM and doesn't dictate to you how to do every thing.

2 people opposing each other in non-combat situations is not particularly uncommon to find. heck, 2 people directly opposing each other in combat but in a manner other than strike vs parry/dodge isn't uncommon either.

wanting rules to cover something like that isn't unreasonable, it certainly isn't the same thing as wanting rules for every specific situation, rather it's a very common event to happen and rifts doesn't really have any particularly good rules for it.

there's lots of stuff that could use improving in rifts. i don't think it needs to be made unrecognisable, and i don't think it even needs to be changed to the point where you'd need anything more than a simple conversion guide to bring all the old material up-to-date. but i do think there is definitely room for changing things around quite a bit, filling in some of the gaping holes, and definitely organising material better.

i doesn't need to be a full-on change to make it like most other RPG systems these days. but it definitely does need updating.

Ronin78 wrote:I think some people calling out for a new system are really calling out for more detail. They want a rule for every possible action and reaction. Which really could be added with out changing what is already written. Although If you understand that palladium is really an old school system that leaves a lot of those rules up to the GM and doesn't dictate to you how to do every thing.

No - I am calling out for simplification, and reduction of rules and simplifying character creation. Mainly a simplification of character creation.

Why are there over 250 skills, and some are basically duplication of others. Skills that cross over from one category to another. Why do we have several classes that pretty much do the exact same thing.

I want internally consistency. If you say that the Glitterboy is the end all be all technology of pre-rifts design, then stick to your guns and say so! Don't come back in 3 books later and say, oh we found this rifted city from the golden age and look they have better technology!

Tiree wrote:Why are there over 250 skills, and some are basically duplication of others. Skills that cross over from one category to another. Why do we have several classes that pretty much do the exact same thing.

Are these not all options? As a GM I choose how I want to handle most of this. I'm not sure I see having options to choose from as a bad thing. Pick a skill list you like. Ignore any thing that contradicts the one you like. Two OOCs do the same thing? Eliminate one. Use the one with the cooler name!

I guess being the GM for my group gives me a different perspective on having too much to choose from. I pick and choose what OCC/RCC will be allowed and what is restricted. I choose which skills will be allowed.

I also choose how to handle things not covered in the rules. That is what in my mind a GM does. I don't need 400+ pages of just rules in a main book. Don't get me wrong I used to like games like that. I used to run HERO and GURPS. And even in those I ignored a lot of the rules. I don't need to know in exact feet how far a knight will fly if he is hit by a lance in a joust and both are moving 20 miles/hr. I don't need that rule and formula for figuring it out in my game.

I really haven't seen anything any one has posted that "needs cleared up" that could not be done with a skill roll, a Savings throw, or simply a judgment call by a GM. How is it that the system has been around and played since the early 80's and people get past these speed bumps. Yet others hit a situation that should be a judgement call from a GM. Seems this is either a rule lawyer wanting to argue a GM. Or a GM needing it in print to prove a rules lawyer wrong.

I'm not saying I think every thing in the books is optimal to me. I don't like percentile skills. Instead I divide skill levels by 5. So a 45 skill becomes a 9. Roll under your skill on a d20. But just because I don't like % rolls doesn't mean its broken. I don't expect any game system to totally cater to my taste.

This is all of course subjective. Just weird to me that my old games of rifts ran good for roughly 5 or so years starting back in high school. And now I'm getting back into it and reading and running games. And I didn't know the system was broken till some one told me on this forums. Sure I've seen arguments about power level and how Maga damage is stupid. But those are subjective in my eyes.

Rolling Bear wrote:

Tiree wrote:

Ronin78 wrote:I think some people calling out for a new system are really calling out for more detail. They want a rule for every possible action and reaction. Which really could be added with out changing what is already written. Although If you understand that palladium is really an old school system that leaves a lot of those rules up to the GM and doesn't dictate to you how to do every thing.

No - I am calling out for simplification, and reduction of rules and simplifying character creation. Mainly a simplification of character creation.

Why are there over 250 skills, and some are basically duplication of others. Skills that cross over from one category to another. Why do we have several classes that pretty much do the exact same thing.

I want internally consistency. If you say that the Glitterboy is the end all be all technology of pre-rifts design, then stick to your guns and say so! Don't come back in 3 books later and say, oh we found this rifted city from the golden age and look they have better technology!

I LOVE the skill selection, it makes every character unique. If you have 40 or 50 skills to choose from and each occ starts with 15-20 on average your characters are going to start looking a lot alike. I enjoy making vastly different characters that don't mirror each other.

Ah - see that's where the problem is. I LOVE Robotech. I really like the new books. The format, the quick character creation, etc. Problem: The player gets around 30 skills (or less), unless they dual(or triple) MOS the system. The player gets around 3-15 choices at character generation, and most of those choices are pre-defined. Which I am very cool with on the amount of skills. But when you have only a limited number of choices and a selection of 250 skills, it is very tough to get what you want or feel that you need.

Rifts Skills have been going up in number whenever somebody comes across a new setting. Do we really need to have Skiing as a skill? Parachuting? Acrobatics? (We have Gymnastics aren't they similar?).

Then there are which skills give me bonuses to other skills. Why is it inconsistent that this skill says if I have this skill, I get +x% but this other skill says it gives +x%. Then there are the pre-req's. Did the Game Designer/Freelancer think 'Oh this guy should get this skill' and forgets that it needs a slew of others, so the Player now has to write down those skills because it wasn't provided for in the base Class. But the player has to take account that they need all those skills if they chose it as an optional skill.

I find that a major cleanup of the rules is needed. I like the basic and core of the Palladium System. I just want the next version to go beyond, scale it down. Make it so I don't have to pour over the books to find that gem of a rule.

I am a rather new customer to Rifts, and I really do understand why you who have bought for thousands of dollars want new books to be compatiable with the old version, should they choose to reset/revamp system.

But to me and my playergroup, these are the things that we do not like (We play with the RUE book):

* Rules are too spread out over the whole book, and it is not always logical where you can find a specific rule, stuff aboit history/background are the same.
* Some professions seem to be updated, while others are just cut-and-paste from old edition book.
* Combats takes too long RL time with all actions/melee
* Some spells & psionic powers seem to need better rules
* There are too much stuff in RUE that requires you to buy other books to understand, where we think that a main book should not demand you to buy other books to be able to play.
* EQ pages are too focused on combat/armor instead of general stuff
* Some rules need better clarification: What minus should X have with perception when Y succeed with Prowl in different degrees (if they have 50% prowl and roll 05, 15, 35 etc)
* If KS took away all his personal messages about what he had for plans & his type of gaming, there would be enough space to add the few spell listings for Elemental Fusionists that are lacking in RUE.
* Rules about dual classings and if these can be done with those who have RCC (For example, can a Dragon become a mer (if he decides to join a company in shapeshifted form, or can a Psi stalker become a Vagabond, can a Techno-wizard dual class into Psychic class or can a PCC dual class into another PCC?
* I would like a better map than the baclk and white that has been reprinted over and over again, about how at least North America (or even just USA looks in Rifts)
* Better explanation of how much a credit is worth to amodern person
* Rules for creation of animals /and or some simple stats on some animals, not much is needed but a few would be nice
* Rules for creation of D-Bees /and or some simple stats on some D-Bees, not much is needed but a few would be nice
* Rules for creation of mutant humans
* Better info on Chi Town and Coalition States

So if they do a revamp, I would personally be happy to see some of these changes in it. I understand that some do not care about it - but to me/my group, we would be happy and think that it is needed.

Dunia wrote:I am a rather new customer to Rifts, and I really do understand why you who have bought for thousands of dollars want new books to be compatiable with the old version, should they choose to reset/revamp system.

But to me and my playergroup, these are the things that we do not like (We play with the RUE book):

* Rules are too spread out over the whole book, and it is not always logical where you can find a specific rule, stuff aboit history/background are the same.
* Some professions seem to be updated, while others are just cut-and-paste from old edition book.
* Combats takes too long RL time with all actions/melee
* Some spells & psionic powers seem to need better rules
* There are too much stuff in RUE that requires you to buy other books to understand, where we think that a main book should not demand you to buy other books to be able to play.
* EQ pages are too focused on combat/armor instead of general stuff
* Some rules need better clarification: What minus should X have with perception when Y succeed with Prowl in different degrees (if they have 50% prowl and roll 05, 15, 35 etc)
* If KS took away all his personal messages about what he had for plans & his type of gaming, there would be enough space to add the few spell listings for Elemental Fusionists that are lacking in RUE.
* Rules about dual classings and if these can be done with those who have RCC (For example, can a Dragon become a mer (if he decides to join a company in shapeshifted form, or can a Psi stalker become a Vagabond, can a Techno-wizard dual class into Psychic class or can a PCC dual class into another PCC?
* I would like a better map than the baclk and white that has been reprinted over and over again, about how at least North America (or even just USA looks in Rifts)

So if they do a revamp, I would personally be happy to see some of these changes in it. I understand that some do not care about it - but to me/my group, we would be happy and think that it is needed.
* Better explanation of how much a credit is worth to amodern person
* Rules for creation of animals /and or some simple stats on some animals, not much is needed but a few would be nice
* Rules for creation of D-Bees /and or some simple stats on some D-Bees, not much is needed but a few would be nice
* Rules for creation of mutant humans
* Better info on Chi Town and Coalition States

None of that has to change the system in radical way, most of it is editing. I not a fan of duel Classing because of the issues it can bring up. Basiclly how ever the book can't be done to fix all of this in the main book.

The skill system is good i think, simply roll percentile or gain x amont of bonuses. Combat tends to take too long when teh players don't know what their character is going to do, or players (especially in my local group) like to do stuff that is just out of touch with reality in combat like special moves that they saw Neo do or something they saw on blade, or even worse yet, something that their hand to hand skill wouldn't allow.

Well - people's mileage may vary with the Skills - I believe there should be a tighter reign on the skills, but expand them using specializations (yes PB has done this - see Robotech TSC)

I would also like to have a 'mook' factor. Basically where the Heroes are Heroes, and the Villains drop in short order. But that would be reworking the HP/SDC/MDC system in order to accomplish this. And I think the best way to do this is by getting rid of HP or SDC and creating an ever increasing new stat that can work with MDC and SDC combat. A Heroic Factor or Hero Point system. Where damage from near misses, explosions, and what not that would normally affect a character is taken off this new stat. It works against MDC and SDC Combat, thus the Player can run around with or without armor and power armor. This also means that Armor can be reduced in protection, because of the new stat.

It's an idea to toss out there, to make the game quicker. Especially if only named villains and certain npc's get it. It also makes the Heroes stand up and stand out. And it allows for GM's to create characters using the OCC's and leveling the NPC appropriately vs. under powering them in order for them not to be combat/skill gods with a ton of protection (and this can be used megaversally)

Tiree wrote:I would also like to have a 'mook' factor. Basically where the Heroes are Heroes, and the Villains drop in short order.

Use more SDC villains.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tiree wrote:I would also like to have a 'mook' factor. Basically where the Heroes are Heroes, and the Villains drop in short order.

Use more SDC villains.

This or the NPC gets knocked out in one shot. Unless the NPC is important to the story I see no reason why the bank robberr with the gun should not get knocked out by one punch/blast etc.

Tiree wrote:I would also like to have a 'mook' factor. Basically where the Heroes are Heroes, and the Villains drop in short order.

I like a game where every single opponent can be dangerous. If villans would drop like flies just to have the players feel that they are the heroes. I would happily ditch PB.

Tiree wrote:But that would be reworking the HP/SDC/MDC system in order to accomplish this. And I think the best way to do this is by getting rid of HP or SDC and creating an ever increasing new stat that can work with MDC and SDC combat. A Heroic Factor or Hero Point system. Where damage from near misses, explosions, and what not that would normally affect a character is taken off this new stat. It works against MDC and SDC Combat, thus the Player can run around with or without armor and power armor. This also means that Armor can be reduced in protection, because of the new stat.

I am not a fan of MDC/SDC but I dislike the idea of a Hero point system in Rifts. Unless the Villans get 'Vilain point'' stats where they can shake off your MDC attacks just as easy as you can shake of theirs. But then again, if both had such stats the whole systems could be scrapped.

Just to put this in relation. I do use a lot of SDC in my games. Making MD weapons king of the battlefield. Why did I do this? Because I had players just wearing thief armor all the time. Now they don't do so, they can go around wearing no armor and SDC pistol sidearms. But once someone brings out an MD pistol people are toast.

What does a Hero Point system do, helps in those situations. Now Dunia this can also be used by villains as I mentioned earlier. But what this system does is give a regenerating damage protection/armor of sorts to players. It means they don't have to repair as often. But then again, I run a very gritty low power low money game.

I too run a game that is darker than what is mentioned in the R:UE. I put more subtle and personal horror into it, and although my players have some MD weapons/MDC armor, they seldom use it as it costs too much to repair and recharge E-Clips and stuff. I have also put a ''price of magic/psionics'' into the game, not to limit the players but to make magic more personal and special.

But me and my players we like it when the players are heroes, not because they are better than everyone else and have hero-points, but because they choose to stand against the evil that exist, in all its forms. They are the heroes as they chose to stand between the evil and the victims and do it because no one else dares to do it. that to me is a real hero.
If I want to have heroes that per default is better, then I can play PB hero game, DC or Marvel.

Tiree wrote:Just to put this in relation. I do use a lot of SDC in my games. Making MD weapons king of the battlefield. Why did I do this? Because I had players just wearing thief armor all the time. Now they don't do so, they can go around wearing no armor and SDC pistol sidearms. But once someone brings out an MD pistol people are toast.

What does a Hero Point system do, helps in those situations. Now Dunia this can also be used by villains as I mentioned earlier. But what this system does is give a regenerating damage protection/armor of sorts to players. It means they don't have to repair as often. But then again, I run a very gritty low power low money game.

I understand almost everything you said there, except the part where you use Hero Points in a "Gritty" game.