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Shorty Lickens wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Looonatic wrote:Well, right or wrong, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this train of thought.

And thats the buety of having multiple people with multiple views on things.

Also with multiple spellings of beauty.

If you have trouble remembering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPphDSc6ZEE

Good tasee the spellng nazis er .. my bad the Spelling Coalition's are round haha juss playin dude

I voted for the Gun Master in this list. Primarily because in my head John Woo is so much cooler than Sergio Leone. But I think this list is incomplete.

The Battle Mage gets the same sharpshooting, QuickDraw, and paired handgun skills as the gunslinger but on top of all of those gets magic as well. Taking a bunch of spells to augment your shooting ability can be an awesome game changer

If the Battle Mage was in the list, that's who would get my vote

I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

Thats pretty important cuz way too many people just stand out in the open and shoot. Realistically your guys should always be running or mounted while firing.

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

Okay, WHY can the paratrooper do that when there are other OCC that rightly have far more reason to do so than someone whose specialty is jumping out of flying vehicles and riding a parachute to the ground? What other less than believable features does the class have to go along with being immune to horror factor and having improbable shooting skill from moving vehicles?

Neurotic Cupcake wrote:It only takes the Combat Driving and 2nd or 3rd level, or just selecting the right Sharpshooting trick, to accomplish the same thing.

Combat driving only applies to land vehicles which means no hovercycles and such which are far faster and more useful (and it still has a -2 penalty).
The Sharpshooting skill halves your bonuses which could add up to a significant difference.
Only the Paratrooper (and the Vintex) are capabale of doing it at full bonuses.

Shorty Lickens wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

Thats pretty important cuz way too many people just stand out in the open and shoot. Realistically your guys should always be running or mounted while firing.

If you do this you are considered "Shooting Wild" and must roll a natural 15 or higher to strike or you automatically miss.

However, cover is key in a shootout so sometimes that is worth while if it means you can get to total or partial cover and thus force your opponent to have to make Called Shots to attack you (requiring the roll of a natural 12 or higher) or granting complete immunity to attack if they cannot draw line of fire to you.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

I don't allow Paratroopers in any of my games (or any of the OCC's from Merc Adventures for that matter). I think they have simply too much power for their class, Plus many of their special abilities are poorly justified and really unbalancing.

All the things in Rifts, from dragons to 80 kinda mages, entire books of Dbees, one of which is a big worm guy that literally interfaces with any weapon in the megaverse, to glitterboys ect ect ect, and Paratroopers and stuff are what you throw out? lol

I like the Paratrooper OOC. It was clearly written to be just a touch campy but I like it. The ignoring of HF is supposed to represent the mindset and training of someone willing to leap out of a perfectly good airplane for a living.

As for the training. *shrugs* They're trained to do, what they're trained to do. Just like RPA pilots are trained to fly robot power armor, glitter boy pilots are trained to pilot glitter boys and Juicers, whom are basically just super roid guys, but some how after being "Juiced" are trained like acrobatic ninja assassins. Noone questions those with all the funky skills they have. Paratroopers are trained to shoot on the move. It's one of the 'reasons' you take the class instead of 10 other classes alot like it.

My father was special forces before that he was 82nd Airborne, and a Ranger. I can tell ya. "Horror factor" isn't something I've ever associated with the man. lol

I like the ... Cold blooded? Blue blooded? I think they're in Merc Adventures too. But then I've always been hot natured, and rather hate heat. Something like that appeals on a primal level.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

I don't allow Paratroopers in any of my games (or any of the OCC's from Merc Adventures for that matter). I think they have simply too much power for their class, Plus many of their special abilities are poorly justified and really unbalancing.

All the things in Rifts, from dragons to 80 kinda mages, entire books of Dbees, one of which is a big worm guy that literally interfaces with any weapon in the megaverse, to glitterboys ect ect ect, and Paratroopers and stuff are what you throw out? lol

I like the Paratrooper OOC. It was clearly written to be just a touch campy but I like it. The ignoring of HF is supposed to represent the mindset and training of someone willing to leap out of a perfectly good airplane for a living.

As for the training. *shrugs* They're trained to do, what they're trained to do. Just like RPA pilots are trained to fly robot power armor, glitter boy pilots are trained to pilot glitter boys and Juicers, whom are basically just super roid guys, but some how after being "Juiced" are trained like acrobatic ninja assassins. Noone questions those with all the funky skills they have. Paratroopers are trained to shoot on the move. It's one of the 'reasons' you take the class instead of 10 other classes alot like it.

My father was special forces before that he was 82nd Airborne, and a Ranger. I can tell ya. "Horror factor" isn't something I've ever associated with the man. lol

I like the ... Cold blooded? Blue blooded? I think they're in Merc Adventures too. But then I've always been hot natured, and rather hate heat. Something like that appeals on a primal level.

Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

GenThunderfist wrote:Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

Very little power has any actual price to it, given your reasoning ALL characters should have a death sentence or otherwise horrible limitation because otherwise 'there's no fun in being an <insert OCC/race here> because it's got power but no real price'. There's nothing fun about having terrible prices attached so that you can't enjoy any of the power/features of a character.

Nightmask wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

Very little power has any actual price to it, given your reasoning ALL characters should have a death sentence or otherwise horrible limitation because otherwise 'there's no fun in being an <insert OCC/race here> because it's got power but no real price'. There's nothing fun about having terrible prices attached so that you can't enjoy any of the power/features of a character.

Never said specifically that their wasn't, or if I did I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as in, "not fun for me, as a GM or Player", so I just refuse to allow it. All of the players in my group don't seem to have a problem with this "Price of Power" concept so it's fun for all of us. If you want the power without a price, go a head, I just choose to play differently and the Merc. Adventures doesn't allow for that idea, so it becomes disqualified for use.

GenThunderfist wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

I don't allow Paratroopers in any of my games (or any of the OCC's from Merc Adventures for that matter). I think they have simply too much power for their class, Plus many of their special abilities are poorly justified and really unbalancing.

All the things in Rifts, from dragons to 80 kinda mages, entire books of Dbees, one of which is a big worm guy that literally interfaces with any weapon in the megaverse, to glitterboys ect ect ect, and Paratroopers and stuff are what you throw out? lol

I like the Paratrooper OOC. It was clearly written to be just a touch campy but I like it. The ignoring of HF is supposed to represent the mindset and training of someone willing to leap out of a perfectly good airplane for a living.

As for the training. *shrugs* They're trained to do, what they're trained to do. Just like RPA pilots are trained to fly robot power armor, glitter boy pilots are trained to pilot glitter boys and Juicers, whom are basically just super roid guys, but some how after being "Juiced" are trained like acrobatic ninja assassins. Noone questions those with all the funky skills they have. Paratroopers are trained to shoot on the move. It's one of the 'reasons' you take the class instead of 10 other classes alot like it.

My father was special forces before that he was 82nd Airborne, and a Ranger. I can tell ya. "Horror factor" isn't something I've ever associated with the man. lol

I like the ... Cold blooded? Blue blooded? I think they're in Merc Adventures too. But then I've always been hot natured, and rather hate heat. Something like that appeals on a primal level.

Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

1) They're pretty much ANTI-vamp types if anything and
2) There ARE penalties. Plenty of them
_____A: Initial cost os 2.5 to 3 MILLION. Much like Juicer conversions this often will put you in hock to someone for the proceedure, meaning you'll have to work for them for a number of years to pay it off.
_____B: You have to die..... no small thing. You take a potion, your blood all but freezes, they cut your wrists, drain all your blood. Kill you, then pump you full of some sort of magical cold blood crap. Several Magical rituals then you're buried for 2 days in the ground.
_____C: You get mental insanity from the process. This you may note is sort of like being a crazy, but more forced. You start off with 1-4 insanities from being killed and buried in the ground.
_____D: You're some sort of quisi-mortal quasi-immortal but NOT undead critter now.

Now, those are all costs to me. From the literal three million dollar start up, to being killed and filled with some sort of magical goop (( You don't REALLY know is going to work, meaning they might just take your 3 million and then kill you and throw you in a ditch as it's an 'underground' type operation)), and forced mental insanities, not to mention the loss of your humanity, all seem like pretty high costs to me. But that's me. I like to get deep into my char's and role play out motivations and mindsets. I don't just see them as lists and numbers.

Are they pretty powerful? Sure. But no more so than 30 other DBee/Supernatural creatures.

I do think it's kinda funny their natural enemies reside in places where the cold blooded suffer penalties from being.

GenThunderfist wrote:
I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

12 skills plus weapon preferences? I don't see that as unbalanced. Nothing there you don't find in Commandos or special forces troops.

GenThunderfist wrote:
I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

I think alot of people hear 'Paratrooper' and are just envisioning some guys with parachutes out of Saving Private ryan or something. If you read the writeup 'Paratrooper' is just the default nickname of the class. It states that "they are the equivalent of the Airborne, Navy SEALS, Ranges and Marines all rolled into one. That they're referred to Paratrooper for simplicity sake" These guys are basicly Delta force or SAS guys. But in rifts earth you can't really have a 'DELTA' or "SAS" OOC. So they're lumped under "Paratrooper". They're special forces troops that happen to have skill at air insertions. (( water too if you look)). At the very least they're SEAL analogs. They're supposed to be that well trained and stuff.

Noone would bat an eye if the OOC was labeled "DELTA/SEAL/SAS Top End, Elite Best of the Best Special Forces" which is what the write up says they ARE. lol

Again, are they a bit more powerful than your average CS grunt? yeah, but they're supposed to be. Just like one Delta or Seal is many times more than your average Army or navy enlisted grunt, so are these guys.

I respect anyone elses game. MOST ESPECIALLY when they try and restrain power creep or over powered stuff in Rifts. I do it too. But in a game where the cat that walks into your campsight, might be a metamorphed dragon and one swipe from kitty's paw could rip your head off your shoulders and throw it 1000 yards before kitty breathes megadamage fire at the rest of the group, (( and that's a dragon that's been alive for MINUTES)). I don't see the DELTA/SEAL, "Paratrooper" as being Over powered.

GenThunderfist wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

Very little power has any actual price to it, given your reasoning ALL characters should have a death sentence or otherwise horrible limitation because otherwise 'there's no fun in being an <insert OCC/race here> because it's got power but no real price'. There's nothing fun about having terrible prices attached so that you can't enjoy any of the power/features of a character.

Never said specifically that their wasn't, or if I did I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as in, "not fun for me, as a GM or Player", so I just refuse to allow it. All of the players in my group don't seem to have a problem with this "Price of Power" concept so it's fun for all of us. If you want the power without a price, go a head, I just choose to play differently and the Merc. Adventures doesn't allow for that idea, so it becomes disqualified for use.

I address this misconception in my post above. The cold blooded indeed do have price, more than one and they're pretty steep.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

Very little power has any actual price to it, given your reasoning ALL characters should have a death sentence or otherwise horrible limitation because otherwise 'there's no fun in being an <insert OCC/race here> because it's got power but no real price'. There's nothing fun about having terrible prices attached so that you can't enjoy any of the power/features of a character.

Never said specifically that their wasn't, or if I did I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as in, "not fun for me, as a GM or Player", so I just refuse to allow it. All of the players in my group don't seem to have a problem with this "Price of Power" concept so it's fun for all of us. If you want the power without a price, go a head, I just choose to play differently and the Merc. Adventures doesn't allow for that idea, so it becomes disqualified for use.

I address this misconception in my post above. The cold blooded indeed do have price, more than one and they're pretty steep.

I understand the nature of a Cold-Blooded and I agree, the price is actually pretty bad. However, for their vampire power levels (being able to go toe to toe with a vampire easily counts and near vampiric) and vampire-like being, they don't end up nearly as poorly off as vampires do. I agree, the insanities suck, but but having to die to be born again? That's like paying $100 and getting $75 back. You only lost $25, so not that bad in the end. Yeah, I can see the social stigma that comes with RPing them, however, for me, they are far to powerful.

And, just to note here quickly, it's not like I let people play dragons and Cosmo-knights every other character either, so I'm not just picking at one OCC here, just the ones that are OP but just barley.

And yes, I think that a Men at Arms Rouge Scholar is OP.

At first level he gets Commando, which is blocked from just about every other character class with out taking away an OCC Related, then the 12 starting skills, which I admit are not what I remember them being. But then he gets 5 WP to begin with. Then 10 related skills, and 3 more secondary skills. All of those skills can be combat related, like taking boxing, kickboxing, acrobatics, gymnastics, wrestling, any military skill, etc.

You talk about training, yet this character's shear amount of skills doesn't suggest being trained to "do what they do" because apparently they do everything. Plus did you look at the freaking bonuses on top of that!? That's ridiculous. NO MILITARY OCC CAN COMPARE TO THIS MERCENARY! Even the CS Spec Ops or the Spec Forces out of the Mercenary book isn't this good. He get's an extra attack with a gun just because!

I'm all for taking in flavor text as viable arguments, but this OCC is just ridiculous in power. He gets bonuses in every combat related stat, plus bonuses in every role that regards that stat. Plus no HF, plus he apparently is a god with a gun and gets +1apm and bonuses to strike that would only be reserved for a specialty gunman, then, to cap it all off, he starts with a grand total of 30 skills, which grows to 46 by level 12. Unlike the Rouge Scholar, which is just about the only other class I can think of that can take this amount of skills, he is not locked out of any of the combat oriented skills, and is in fact, locked out of just about anything that will not help him in combat beyond Technical and Domestic.

So yes, I feel he is a touch overpowered. I would also like to point out, as a final nail in the proverbial coffin that unlike UNLIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER OCC IN THE MEGAVERSE he can take H2H Assassin if he freakin feels like it! He doesn't even have to be of an evil alignment, like everyone elses in any book. That is just stupid. I don't care about training, or spec ops, or no horror factor, or anything that has been presented as flavor text of the logic behind this monstrosity. No one, not even CS Spec Ops, can take H2H Assassin unless they are of an Evil class alignment. No one.

So, I ban it. You don't. Case closed.

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Johnnycat93 wrote: they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more thany most other mercenaries.

Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

The paratrooper OCC is bunk.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

I don't allow Paratroopers in any of my games (or any of the OCC's from Merc Adventures for that matter). I think they have simply too much power for their class, Plus many of their special abilities are poorly justified and really unbalancing.

All the things in Rifts, from dragons to 80 kinda mages, entire books of Dbees, one of which is a big worm guy that literally interfaces with any weapon in the megaverse, to glitterboys ect ect ect, and Paratroopers and stuff are what you throw out? lol

I like the Paratrooper OOC. It was clearly written to be just a touch campy but I like it. The ignoring of HF is supposed to represent the mindset and training of someone willing to leap out of a perfectly good airplane for a living.

As for the training. *shrugs* They're trained to do, what they're trained to do. Just like RPA pilots are trained to fly robot power armor, glitter boy pilots are trained to pilot glitter boys and Juicers, whom are basically just super roid guys, but some how after being "Juiced" are trained like acrobatic ninja assassins. Noone questions those with all the funky skills they have. Paratroopers are trained to shoot on the move. It's one of the 'reasons' you take the class instead of 10 other classes alot like it.

My father was special forces before that he was 82nd Airborne, and a Ranger. I can tell ya. "Horror factor" isn't something I've ever associated with the man. lol

I like the ... Cold blooded? Blue blooded? I think they're in Merc Adventures too. But then I've always been hot natured, and rather hate heat. Something like that appeals on a primal level.

My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description, they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more than most other mercenaries.

The Cold-Blooded is a concept I like, but I think the execution is poor. They are an alright RCC, they got pros and cons. What I am missing though is a solid back ground. This is a whole new type of magic augmentation with totally undescribed methodology, I would have liked to have seen a culture described out of this or some other variations using the same process.

I agree on the paratrooper, especially after playing the OCC and trying to figure out what kind of training the OCC infers the character has been through. At the end of the day my only recourse was that the paratrooper takes part in demon hunter mind and body hardening exercises and have a starting age somewhere between 25-30 in order to have learned all the skills they have. Seriously, when did the parachuting skill make someone impervious to horror factor?

Killer Cyborg wrote:The paratrooper OCC is bunk.

Well said.

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Where do you get the idea that someone whose job is falling really fast would somehow include being able to shoot with accuracy, particularly such accuracy that they'd have no penalties at all no matter how fast they're moving or in what? The job of the paratrooper is to fall fast, land on the ground safely, THEN start shooting. Shooting accurately while falling is hardly part of the job description, and by that reasoning ALL mercenaries should be able to shoot from fast-moving vehicles without penalties because accuracy in shooting is an essential part of all their jobs and far more so than a paratrooper.

Nightmask wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Where do you get the idea that someone whose job is falling really fast would somehow include being able to shoot with accuracy, particularly such accuracy that they'd have no penalties at all no matter how fast they're moving or in what? The job of the paratrooper is to fall fast, land on the ground safely, THEN start shooting. Shooting accurately while falling is hardly part of the job description, and by that reasoning ALL mercenaries should be able to shoot from fast-moving vehicles without penalties because accuracy in shooting is an essential part of all their jobs and far more so than a paratrooper.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, shooting from vehicles isn't a prime requisite of the other OCCs, if it was part of the training at all it would be secondary to their primary purpose.
If the prime part of your job is moving at speed in a combat situation, then that is the part of your job that is going to be trained to an exceptional standard before all others.
The notion that a Paratrooper wouldn't be trained to defend them selves while Paratrooping is a little far fetched - specially with the amount of training they receive. If they weren't trained to defend themselves while fulfilling their prime duty, then that amount of training would be pointless as the likelihood of them surviving more than a few missions would be extremely low.

Giant2005 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Where do you get the idea that someone whose job is falling really fast would somehow include being able to shoot with accuracy, particularly such accuracy that they'd have no penalties at all no matter how fast they're moving or in what? The job of the paratrooper is to fall fast, land on the ground safely, THEN start shooting. Shooting accurately while falling is hardly part of the job description, and by that reasoning ALL mercenaries should be able to shoot from fast-moving vehicles without penalties because accuracy in shooting is an essential part of all their jobs and far more so than a paratrooper.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, shooting from vehicles isn't a prime requisite of the other OCCs, if it was part of the training at all it would be secondary to their primary purpose.
If the prime part of your job is moving at speed in a combat situation, then that is the part of your job that is going to be trained to an exceptional standard before all others.
The notion that a Paratrooper wouldn't be trained to defend them selves while Paratrooping is a little far fetched - specially with the amount of training they receive. If they weren't trained to defend themselves while fulfilling their prime duty, then that amount of training would be pointless as the likelihood of them surviving more than a few missions would be extremely low.

Paratroopers being easy targets because you can't effectively defend yourself while speeding towards the ground is actually the reality of things, it's a lot more far-fetched that they'd be so skilled at shooting that they could do so without penalties while dropping towards the ground or in moving vehicles. Of which it's NOT a prime part of a paratroopers job to be capable of shooting from vehicles and not even a secondary part, and they certainly don't have a job where shooting while they're moving is part of the job. Really you're more than just stretching things to try and justify a bonus feature of a class that it simply doesn't warrant, especially when compared to other OCC that are far more focused on actually making use of vehicles and having to shoot from them.

Nightmask wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Where do you get the idea that someone whose job is falling really fast would somehow include being able to shoot with accuracy, particularly such accuracy that they'd have no penalties at all no matter how fast they're moving or in what? The job of the paratrooper is to fall fast, land on the ground safely, THEN start shooting. Shooting accurately while falling is hardly part of the job description, and by that reasoning ALL mercenaries should be able to shoot from fast-moving vehicles without penalties because accuracy in shooting is an essential part of all their jobs and far more so than a paratrooper.

Aside from the obvious exceptions, shooting from vehicles isn't a prime requisite of the other OCCs, if it was part of the training at all it would be secondary to their primary purpose.
If the prime part of your job is moving at speed in a combat situation, then that is the part of your job that is going to be trained to an exceptional standard before all others.
The notion that a Paratrooper wouldn't be trained to defend them selves while Paratrooping is a little far fetched - specially with the amount of training they receive. If they weren't trained to defend themselves while fulfilling their prime duty, then that amount of training would be pointless as the likelihood of them surviving more than a few missions would be extremely low.

Paratroopers being easy targets because you can't effectively defend yourself while speeding towards the ground is actually the reality of things, it's a lot more far-fetched that they'd be so skilled at shooting that they could do so without penalties while dropping towards the ground or in moving vehicles. Of which it's NOT a prime part of a paratroopers job to be capable of shooting from vehicles and not even a secondary part, and they certainly don't have a job where shooting while they're moving is part of the job. Really you're more than just stretching things to try and justify a bonus feature of a class that it simply doesn't warrant, especially when compared to other OCC that are far more focused on actually making use of vehicles and having to shoot from them.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that you are more likely to be stretching in this case?
You said it yourself that there is no active defence they could use while falling to the Earth. The only means they have of keeping themselves alive is by offence - with that in mind, it can only be extremely foolish to train a soldier to that extent but opt to not train them in their only means of survival during their prime role as a soldier.
Without training them to shoot while falling or giving them some supernatural means of defending themselves while falling uncontrollably, they aren't soldiers they are corpses. You are saying that they would be trained to be the ultimate soldier who parachutes but that they shouldn't be trained to have any possible means of surviving a combat drop.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Johnnycat93 wrote: they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more thany most other mercenaries.

Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

I think that the SF troops are top guns, not paratroopers. And I don't think ANYONE should be able to fire accuately when moving that fast.

The SF troops are trained to be Special Forces. Paratroopers are trained to combine all the strengths of every Special Forces class known with their limited knowledge of history.

Giant2005 wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Paratroopers being easy targets because you can't effectively defend yourself while speeding towards the ground is actually the reality of things, it's a lot more far-fetched that they'd be so skilled at shooting that they could do so without penalties while dropping towards the ground or in moving vehicles. Of which it's NOT a prime part of a paratroopers job to be capable of shooting from vehicles and not even a secondary part, and they certainly don't have a job where shooting while they're moving is part of the job. Really you're more than just stretching things to try and justify a bonus feature of a class that it simply doesn't warrant, especially when compared to other OCC that are far more focused on actually making use of vehicles and having to shoot from them.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that you are more likely to be stretching in this case?
You said it yourself that there is no active defence they could use while falling to the Earth. The only means they have of keeping themselves alive is by offence - with that in mind, it can only be extremely foolish to train a soldier to that extent but opt to not train them in their only means of survival during their prime role as a soldier.
Without training them to shoot while falling or giving them some supernatural means of defending themselves while falling uncontrollably, they aren't soldiers they are corpses. You are saying that they would be trained to be the ultimate soldier who parachutes but that they shouldn't be trained to have any possible means of surviving a combat drop.

No I'm quite sure it's fair to say that you're the one stretching things more than a bit. Nor have I even remotely said that they're trained to be the 'ultimate soldier' (That would be the Special Forces OCC if any), nor have I or anyone else said that they can't fire a weapon while falling just that they don't rate such special benefit as being able to do so without penalty. All you have to do is look back at history to see that people parachuting into dangerous areas generally WERE corpses if there wasn't anything to distract the troops on the ground or some kind of tacit agreement not to shoot them until they had landed.

Sorry but just because they're sitting ducks parachuting into an area there doesn't come with it a justification for them having supernatural aiming skills to compensate; they're just sitting ducks and have to hope no one shoots them as they're coming down or that they're able to hit whoever is shooting at them in spite of the penalties. Because they will be shooting at a penalty. That's just how things go.

Johnnycat93 wrote:I disagree, special forces are trained to be the best of the best.

Best of the best "at certain things" .. Special Forces by definition are a highly skilled unit that "specializes" at certain things ..

They are in fact not the best of the best at all things ..

Giant2005 wrote:Paratroopers are trained to combine all the strengths of every Special Forces class known with their limited knowledge of history.

Wrong. Paratroopers are trained to be highly mobile light infantry .. thus being able to jump from aircraft during war time scenario's to fight and engage the enemy on their territory.

Wait, do paratroopers really use parachutes in a setting where jet packs and flying power armor are a reality?

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Yet another example of authors writing something that seems cool to them without thinking things through.

--flatline

GenThunderfist wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:Nah, I get your point but I have to concede to Johnnycat on this one. I mean, the Cold Blooded is basically a Vamp, but without any of the penalties. That reminds me of a post about playing a juicer without the threat of death, I mean where's the fun in power if you don't have to pay any real cost for it.

I get the point of the Paratrooper, but he has way to many skills for what his character is. It's not even related skills and secondary skills, he just starts with too many skills in that OCC. It can really unbalance a game.

I respect your choice to allow it, and love it for that matter, but that thing, like most of the Merc. Adventures source book, is just too much. In fact, I would only allow it if the player were to be gaming with a dragon and a glitterboy

Very little power has any actual price to it, given your reasoning ALL characters should have a death sentence or otherwise horrible limitation because otherwise 'there's no fun in being an <insert OCC/race here> because it's got power but no real price'. There's nothing fun about having terrible prices attached so that you can't enjoy any of the power/features of a character.

Never said specifically that their wasn't, or if I did I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as in, "not fun for me, as a GM or Player", so I just refuse to allow it. All of the players in my group don't seem to have a problem with this "Price of Power" concept so it's fun for all of us. If you want the power without a price, go a head, I just choose to play differently and the Merc. Adventures doesn't allow for that idea, so it becomes disqualified for use.

I address this misconception in my post above. The cold blooded indeed do have price, more than one and they're pretty steep.

I understand the nature of a Cold-Blooded and I agree, the price is actually pretty bad. However, for their vampire power levels (being able to go toe to toe with a vampire easily counts and near vampiric)

Again you're sort of misrepresenting them. They are strong but not as strong as vampires. Yes they're minor MDC beings but no more so than a dozen other MDC Dbees or supernatural creatures. They actually have MORE weaknesses as they can be hurt by bone weapons and (( Wood?Maybe.. I remember the bone though))

It's -not- like they're invulnerable to all weapons EXCEPT wood or holy water like a vamp. If you shoot a Cold Blooded with a laser pistol he takes damage. He can't be "Turned" into a vampire, but neither can dragons or other supernaturals.

GenThunderfist wrote: and vampire-like being, they don't end up nearly as poorly off as vampires do.

Other than daylight and water not bothering them, how are the vampires so poorly off. You can shoot one in the face with the strongest laser rifle on the planet and they'll laugh at you. They have supernatural strength, the mist thing, nigh on instant regeneration, ect ect ect.

GenThunderfist wrote: I agree, the insanities suck, but but having to die to be born again? That's like paying $100 and getting $75 back. You only lost $25, so not that bad in the end. Yeah, I can see the social stigma that comes with RPing them, however, for me, they are far to powerful.

Well we clearly play differently. I happen to think having to die, and being resurrected via some shady magic (( it's hinted that it's some kind of old necro magic, but not 'bad' necro magic as they're instinctively the enemies of necromancers and undead)) that's only performed in illegal type secret underground back alley magic shops, to the tune of 3million and up to I think 5.5 million just to have it done.. and having to DIE... be pumped fully nasty magic blue goo, buried, go insane.. and come back is a HELL of a big price. yes you're now a supernatural creature (( that's the point)) but you lose a lot. Your "Well you're paying 100 and getting 75 back, seems to imply you just hand wave it to get to where you're going (( the end result)) when I play, I play for motivations and stuff. The people that do this, are clearly not doig so for giggles. Something BAD has happened to them, or around them. Their family was ripped from their arms and eaten in front of them by vampires or something. If you do this (( and it -has- to be a willing procedure or it automatically fails. You can't be caught and converted)) Then you're doing so for a REALLY REALLY Strong motivation. It'd be 100% easier to get a borg conversion or something if all you wanted was power, and you didn't have to go insane or lose your humanity to do it. It's written to be a rather tragic sort of thing. "A monster I am, least a monster I become" Type. One that has given up soooo much to fight the evil, that your motivations to take that step had to be huge.

The end result is a minor MDC supernatural class. And it's not weak, not by far, but it's nothing to a dragon, or a demon, ect ect ect. You do state you don't just let people play dragons so it's cool if you restrict it. (( Your game after all)) I just think 1) You're thinking they're alot more powerful than they really are, and 2) Are -not- really looking at the penalties and costs that come with being one of these things. lol

GenThunderfist wrote:
And, just to note here quickly, it's not like I let people play dragons and Cosmo-knights every other character either, so I'm not just picking at one OCC here, just the ones that are OP but just barley.

And yes, I think that a Men at Arms Rouge Scholar is OP.

Ok now we're talking about the Paratrooper

GenThunderfist wrote:
At first level he gets Commando, which is blocked from just about every other character class with out taking away an OCC Related,

He's a Delta/SEAL/SAS. Of course he can get commando. That's what the HTH was built for. This type of character.

GenThunderfist wrote: then the 12 starting skills, which I admit are not what I remember them being. But then he gets 5 WP to begin with. Then 10 related skills, and 3 more secondary skills. All of those skills can be combat related, like taking boxing, kickboxing, acrobatics, gymnastics, wrestling, any military skill, etc.

Again, this isn't some huge giagantic sort of list. I had the lone star book open beside me after replying to Dog boys being able to be cyberknights and I glanced at the page. A navy "Sea dog" has just as many 17 class skills+3 WPs + HTH Expert. +5 other +4 secondary. And that was very much literally, just where I had the book open. If a normal CS navy dog has just as many skills. Where's the outrage about a Paratrooper having them?

GenThunderfist wrote:
You talk about training, yet this character's shear amount of skills doesn't suggest being trained to "do what they do" because apparently they do everything.

1) I've shown they don't have some huge amount of skills over other classes and
2) They're ---highly trained ELITE special forces----- yes, they ARE Trained quite well. Your words seem to take the "Seals, Airborne, specialforces, marines all rolled into one" Quote from the class and toss it out like these guys are just grunts that have parachutes. That's not what they are.

GenThunderfist wrote:
Plus did you look at the freaking bonuses on top of that!? That's ridiculous. NO MILITARY OCC CAN COMPARE TO THIS MERCENARY! Even the CS Spec Ops or the Spec Forces out of the Mercenary book isn't this good. He get's an extra attack with a gun just because!

Yes. They hare highly trained. I'll totally stipulate that. They do have some nice bonouses. But it's not like they're other worldly. I think alot of that, is that the CS Special ops were written in... I think 96? There IS power creep in Rifts. Anyone that tells you different is trying to sell you something. This class is better than the CS and the Special forces in the merc book. Because it's purposefully written to be so. Just like, Airborne are better than normal army grunts, and Rangers are better than airborne, and Special Forces Are better than rangers, and SEALS are better than special forces, ect ect ect (( yes I know they often have to hit every rung along the way to get to the top levvels I'm just putting them up beside one another in an example.)) These guys (( the Paratrooper OOC )) Are at the top, or near the top of the pile for Military OOCs. They ARE the Deltas and the Seals. That they're better than just the Special forces or Rangers isn't surprising.

Opening up the CS book. CS Commandos get 14 class skills 4 WPs, HTH Commando, 4 other and 2 secondary. So the Paratrooper has like 5 more skills than the commando? Some more, but not "OMG!!! THE OVERPOWERZ!" Type more. (( I think it's funny the commando gets less skills than a sea dog. lol)) The EOD Gets 25 plus a page or two of special skills. A ranger gets 15 class skills 1 wp, HTH, 7 other, 6 seconday, that's 29 skills. That's one less than the Paratrooper. RPA trops get 18 class skills, 1 wp, hth, +6 other, +5 secondary, so they tie the Paratrooper at 30 skills. CS Special forces get 17 base skills 4 wps,HTHCommando, 4 other, 4 secondary. So that's 29 skills. Only one less than the paratrooper.

So you're "OMG THE PARATROOPER GETS SOOO MANY MORE SKILLS THAN EVEN THE CS SPECIAL FORCES" and what not.. isn't really all that dramatic. They have one skill more than CS Special forces. Yes they do have OOC bonuses. But they're not all that much. The Paratrooper was written AFTER the 1996 Cs war campaign book when more OOC's started getting bonuses. Their marksmanship, while impressive, is only a +2 to strike on called shot or +1 to strike with a burst or spry. Yes they do get +1 attack per melee (( which IS nice)) but when you look at CS juicers and how many they get per round, the Paratrooper is hardly unbalanced.

Is the Paratrooper a bit better than Special forces? yes. Is Delta team or the SEALS better than just standard green berets? Yes. This is the step you're seeing with the ooc. Nothing TOO dramatic.

GenThunderfist wrote:
I'm all for taking in flavor text as viable arguments, but this OCC is just ridiculous in power.

But when you open the books and line it up with the others.. it's not. It's a hand full of bonous, better. Not ridiculous. The biggest thing there is the immunity to HF. which can simply be ignored if you want.(( Though in 20+years of playing HF rarely comes up in our games. So it's no big deal for our groups))

GenThunderfist wrote:
He gets bonuses in every combat related stat, plus bonuses in every role that regards that stat.

He's an Elite, best of the best combat monkey. That's what they do. The bonous aren't THAT much. And if you want to take him down to standard Special forces power you can just not allow those bonous. Again, the book was written after the rifts base books. When more and more OOCs started getting bonous' at start. NONE of the CS classes get those. they came later. So you can either give them to the CS classes, or if you like take away the class bonous. No huge thing.

GenThunderfist wrote:
Plus no HF, plus he apparently is a god with a gun and gets +1apm and bonuses to strike that would only be reserved for a specialty gunman

He IS a specialty gunman. You're comparing Delta/SEALS to grunts.

GenThunderfist wrote:
then, to cap it all off, he starts with a grand total of 30 skills, which grows to 46 by level 12.

So do all classes. Maybe not the exact 42 number but they all get more 'Other' skills or secondary skills as they class up. As pointed out above whhen you stack them up beside other military classes the differeneces are minimal. Beside CS Special forces you're talking 1 skill and the bonouses. Which to me, is the difference between Green Berets (( Trained special forces. IMPRESSIVE AND DEADLY IN THEIR OWN RIGHT)) and DELTA/SEALS, the Best of the Best.

GenThunderfist wrote:

Unlike the Rouge Scholar, which is just about the only other class I can think of that can take this amount of skills, he is not locked out of any of the combat oriented skills, and is in fact, locked out of just about anything that will not help him in combat beyond Technical and Domestic.

Again. I suggest you open the books and actually compare. I did so just flipping through a few books at hand and the "AMOUNT OF SKILLS" isn't ungodly beside other classes. It's not that it's that big a deal to me, but you're acting like they're supermen, when they're not THAT Much more than the other classes. You're acting like they've got like 10 or 15 more skills than others, and you're talking... 1... to 5 more. They are a bit better than special forces. But it's not the sort of difference you're implying.

GenThunderfist wrote:
So yes, I feel he is a touch overpowered. I would also like to point out, as a final nail in the proverbial coffin that unlike UNLIKE EVERY SINGLE OTHER OCC IN THE MEGAVERSE he can take H2H Assassin if he freakin feels like it! He doesn't even have to be of an evil alignment, like everyone elses in any book. That is just stupid. I don't care about training, or spec ops, or no horror factor, or anything that has been presented as flavor text of the logic behind this monstrosity. No one, not even CS Spec Ops, can take H2H Assassin unless they are of an Evil class alignment. No one.

Isn't that a prereq of the hand to hand? I.E. You have to be of evil or selfish alignment to take the HTH, anyway, so making it doubly prereq is just redundant? I honestly can't remember. I don't' think I've ever in 20+Years of playing tried for it. lol

GenThunderfist wrote: So, I ban it. You don't. Case closed.

And that's totally ok. Just realize that the differences that you perceive to be so great, aren't really that different when you actually put the classes up side by side.

I very much applaud people that try and keep the power level of their game respectable. I very much do. I just don't see this class, when put up beside a Juicer, Crazy, Dragon, ect ect ect ect ect to be anything to freak over.

And for the record. I'd play them with out the horror factor thing or bonuses. Just like I'd use the "Laser swords" if their damage was less than vibro blades.

Colt47 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:I think the Paratrooper should also have been included. They are the only OCC that can shoot from a moving vehicle without penalty - that is something worthy of candidacy.

I don't allow Paratroopers in any of my games (or any of the OCC's from Merc Adventures for that matter). I think they have simply too much power for their class, Plus many of their special abilities are poorly justified and really unbalancing.

All the things in Rifts, from dragons to 80 kinda mages, entire books of Dbees, one of which is a big worm guy that literally interfaces with any weapon in the megaverse, to glitterboys ect ect ect, and Paratroopers and stuff are what you throw out? lol

I like the Paratrooper OOC. It was clearly written to be just a touch campy but I like it. The ignoring of HF is supposed to represent the mindset and training of someone willing to leap out of a perfectly good airplane for a living.

As for the training. *shrugs* They're trained to do, what they're trained to do. Just like RPA pilots are trained to fly robot power armor, glitter boy pilots are trained to pilot glitter boys and Juicers, whom are basically just super roid guys, but some how after being "Juiced" are trained like acrobatic ninja assassins. Noone questions those with all the funky skills they have. Paratroopers are trained to shoot on the move. It's one of the 'reasons' you take the class instead of 10 other classes alot like it.

My father was special forces before that he was 82nd Airborne, and a Ranger. I can tell ya. "Horror factor" isn't something I've ever associated with the man. lol

I like the ... Cold blooded? Blue blooded? I think they're in Merc Adventures too. But then I've always been hot natured, and rather hate heat. Something like that appeals on a primal level.

My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description, they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more than most other mercenaries.

The Cold-Blooded is a concept I like, but I think the execution is poor. They are an alright RCC, they got pros and cons. What I am missing though is a solid back ground. This is a whole new type of magic augmentation with totally undescribed methodology, I would have liked to have seen a culture described out of this or some other variations using the same process.

I agree on the paratrooper, especially after playing the OCC and trying to figure out what kind of training the OCC infers the character has been through. At the end of the day my only recourse was that the paratrooper takes part in demon hunter mind and body hardening exercises and have a starting age somewhere between 25-30 in order to have learned all the skills they have. Seriously, when did the parachuting skill make someone impervious to horror factor?

Killer Cyborg wrote:The paratrooper OCC is bunk.

Well said.

Yeah, then look at the CS Special forces.... they have one less skill than the paratrooper.

I think people are just going off what someone has said and not really compared.

Nightmask wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Where do you get the idea that someone whose job is falling really fast would somehow include being able to shoot with accuracy, particularly such accuracy that they'd have no penalties at all no matter how fast they're moving or in what? The job of the paratrooper is to fall fast, land on the ground safely, THEN start shooting. Shooting accurately while falling is hardly part of the job description, and by that reasoning ALL mercenaries should be able to shoot from fast-moving vehicles without penalties because accuracy in shooting is an essential part of all their jobs and far more so than a paratrooper.

Part of this answer is in the writeup. "Paratrooper" is just what they've named the class in the book to single it out from other special forces classes. It states directly in thewrite up, to quote

"The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers nad Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

Again, people are reading the title (( Which to be honest I do think is kinda misleading)) and just envisioning Airborne. Which, while are better trained than average grunts, are NOT what is being represented in the class.

The Class is 'Delta Force/SEAL/SAS'... but you can't name a class that.. as there is no more delta or sas or really SEALS (( though the CS has the equivalent))

Just as Delta or the Seals ARE trained to shoot from moving vechiles, boats, cars, ect, so are these guys. It's something your standard trooper is not trained in.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Johnnycat93 wrote: they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more thany most other mercenaries.

Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

I think that the SF troops are top guns, not paratroopers. And I don't think ANYONE should be able to fire accuately when moving that fast.

To this, I would ask a simple question:
Do you rank
Airborne
Rangers
Green Berets
Special Forces
SEALs
SAS
And Delta

All at the same level of training? I'm going to guess no. You'd put some at one level. Some a bit above them, and some at the absolute top of the pile. Right?

If I'm right, this ooc represents that 'top of the pile'. and yes, Delta and SEALs are trained to move from moving vechiles be they choppers or fast attack boats, or cars, ect.
It's training that's above the training directly below it.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Johnnycat93 wrote: they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more thany most other mercenaries.

Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

I think that the SF troops are top guns, not paratroopers. And I don't think ANYONE should be able to fire accuately when moving that fast.

The SF troops are trained to be Special Forces. Paratroopers are trained to combine all the strengths of every Special Forces class known with their limited knowledge of history.

I disagree, special forces are trained to be the best of the best.

To quote the book.

""The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers and Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

flatline wrote:Wait, do paratroopers really use parachutes in a setting where jet packs and flying power armor are a reality?

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Yet another example of authors writing something that seems cool to them without thinking things through.

--flatline

lol I'm actually not in disagreement with this on the surface. But again I point out 'Paratrooper' is just the tile they're giving to their "Super Elite Special forces" like Delta.

"The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers nad Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

The use of chutes, I can only guess is many 1000s of times cheeper than jet packs or flying armor. For the price of one jet pack you can out fit a chalk of 100 to 1000 (( depending on the jetpack)) troops with chutes and get boots on the ground.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:My issue with them isn't their power level necessarily, it's more a matter of how they justify having that power. The paratrooper can fire from moving vehicles, which I don't get how that applies to the job description,

You don't think it is justified for a soldier that falls to the Earth at high speed as a significant part of its job description to be able to shoot accurately while doing so?

Johnnycat93 wrote: they get amazing bonuses to strike with long range bonuses, their OCC bonuses are one of the highest of an un-augmented mercenary that I have seen. Plus they get an insane amount of initial skills, close to those of a rogue scholar and more thany most other mercenaries.

Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

I think that the SF troops are top guns, not paratroopers. And I don't think ANYONE should be able to fire accuately when moving that fast.

To this, I would ask a simple question:
Do you rank
Airborne
Rangers
Green Berets
Special Forces
SEALs
SAS
And Delta

All at the same level of training? I'm going to guess no. You'd put some at one level. Some a bit above them, and some at the absolute top of the pile. Right?

If I'm right, this ooc represents that 'top of the pile'. and yes, Delta and SEALs are trained to move from moving vechiles be they choppers or fast attack boats, or cars, ect.
It's training that's above the training directly below it.

That's the thing, I don't think they should be top of the pile. I consider it to be unlikely that ANY standard mercanary OCC should start off with more abilities than coalition SF, seeing as the coalition takes time and effort to make sure that their soldiers are the best trained and equiped on the continent. And as a paratrooper you should be a paratrooper, yet with the class you can instead invest in having amazing PA Commando skills. I just don't see that level of training and experience available at first level, thats not even counting all of the bonuses they get for "marksmanship" or whatever.

Well again, when you stack them up side by side, the class has 1 skill more than CS special forces.

It seems by and large most people have a problem with the title of the class more than anything. "A paratrooper should be a paratrooper" sort of thing, when I've pointed out, even in the class write up itself it says that's just a label. They're much more than 'Just paratroopers'

They're ment to be Delta/Seal/SAS type training. "The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers and Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

Perhaps if the OOC title was 'Elite Top End Special Forces" there'd be less flack?

First of all, I feel as though my arguments were misinterpruted. I agree, alone or with a just a couple of the bonuses, they arn't that bad. I am argueing that with all of the listed bonuses they are ridiculous. Yes, the sea dog gets more skills, and the commando gets applicable skills. HOWEVER, neither of them get the shear amount of bonuses and skills that this OCC does. I know about power creep. I mean look at Triax 2, those poor gargoyles never stood a chance in the first place...but the Paratrooper is ridiculous.

Here is a quote straight from the book about their ungodly training :

Mercenary Adventures pg. 30 wrote:All paratroopers are very well paid, second only to special forces operatives.

And before I hear about it, no. You cannont be more skilled and paid less, that's crap in the Merc. world, which is entirely what this is based off. I never have disagreed that they don't deserve Commando, or a solid amount of skills, or maybe some bonuses like every OCC will get from time to time. What I am saying is that, in comparison to any other mercenary or specially trained fromal army soldier, they have to much. They are better at level 1 than just about anyone.

Also you made the arguement that they are worse than a Juicer. Of course the Juicer is better! That's never been the debate, and honestly isn't anywhere close to what I have been talking about. I have never said that this un-agumented human could slap around a crazy, juicer, dragon, juicer varient, master psychic, cosmo-knight, cyber-knight, Supernatural D-Bee, vampires, high level mages, Godlings, Gods and Goddesses, the entire forces of the CS, all of the NGR, all of Free Quebec, gargoyles, demons, the old ones, promethians, the kreeghor, the CCW, the Trans Galatic Empire, the UWW, all of Deval, a nightbane, a night lord, a nuke, a heavy combat borg, a tank, a CS Death Head with full armored division, The lord of the deep, the Ticondaroga, any of the Splugorth, any Veritech, any of the Invid, the SDF-1, Germany's Black Forest, the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse, the Warlords of Russia, The Geofront Military, Japan...I think I made my point.

All I have said is that he is to powerful as an unagumented human.
Yes, he is highly trained. Yes, he should get at least Commando. Yes, he should get a good number of skills. Yes, he deserves some sort of bonus to reflect his background. The problem is that its all just to much to put together like it is. His combination of a choice of two of the more powerful H2H skills, 30 starting skills, unlimited racial restrictions, and high level bonuses, is just simply to much to say "training did it". I just cannot see how any training short of a lifetime in the military, plus probably some slight form of augmentation could pull this off.

Also, in note to the Assassin skill, yes you are supposed to be of an Evil alignment. However the Paratrooper OCC makes a special note to point out that you may take this instead of Commando if you want to. Nothing about alignment, which it should say if alignment was a factor. Which is ridiculous in and of itself really.

@Flatline

More than value (as mentioned by Pepsi Jedi) there are tactical advantages to parachutes. Primarily stealth. Radar is going to pickup a nuclear powered rocket pack or power armour like *snaps his fingers* THAT nearly every time but parachutes are small, portable (about the size of a backpack; and considering its Rifts maybe even smaller) and they give off no heat and won't show up as even a blip on a radar. Paratroopers are supposed to be Commando's, which is why they drop in, hit hard and get out.

Now, Hand to Hand: Assassin (but you're not evil?!) I think this is a blunder in a big way BUT if you flex your brain muscles for just a second and think about it... it can make sense. For instance, you can teach someone how to fire a gun. This does not mean that they are evil because you CAN shoot someone in the head with it. However, once they start running around indiscriminately shooting people in the head with it... well... lets just say that is NOT the actions of a Principled person.

Likewise I believe you can train someone in the art of assassination (remember it is defined as quick take downs, dirty tricks, garrotes, slit throats, etc) but the second they start using this fighting style their alignment is going to start dropping. Maybe you have to be an assassin, maybe your county needs you, maybe its just... maybe its just this one guy... then one more guy... but you don't do any other missions and you are a pacifist but you're the best at what you do. This guy could probably be a "Good Aligned" character so long as he hates doing his JOB, DOESNT do it often and beats himself up over it and tries to make penance for the killings he has performed everyday. However, the guy that is the hot-head crack assassin that brings down "bad guys" left and right... his alignment plummets and he quickly loses grip on perspective, reality and becomes a self-centered evil person.

At least that is how I interpret that. They have an educational system that can teach them an evil skill. It would then become their job to perform said skill, however if they didn't there is nothing within the rules that says they have to be evil.

GenThunderfist wrote:First of all, I feel as though my arguments were misinterpruted. I agree, alone or with a just a couple of the bonuses, they arn't that bad. I am argueing that with all of the listed bonuses they are ridiculous. Yes, the sea dog gets more skills, and the commando gets applicable skills. HOWEVER, neither of them get the shear amount of bonuses and skills that this OCC does. I know about power creep. I mean look at Triax 2, those poor gargoyles never stood a chance in the first place...but the Paratrooper is ridiculous.

Here is a quote straight from the book about their ungodly training :

Mercenary Adventures pg. 30 wrote:All paratroopers are very well paid, second only to special forces operatives.

And before I hear about it, no. You cannont be more skilled and paid less, that's crap in the Merc. world, which is entirely what this is based off. I never have disagreed that they don't deserve Commando, or a solid amount of skills, or maybe some bonuses like every OCC will get from time to time. What I am saying is that, in comparison to any other mercenary or specially trained fromal army soldier, they have to much. They are better at level 1 than just about anyone.

Also you made the arguement that they are worse than a Juicer. Of course the Juicer is better! That's never been the debate, and honestly isn't anywhere close to what I have been talking about. I have never said that this un-agumented human could slap around a crazy, juicer, dragon, juicer varient, master psychic, cosmo-knight, cyber-knight, Supernatural D-Bee, vampires, high level mages, Godlings, Gods and Goddesses, the entire forces of the CS, all of the NGR, all of Free Quebec, gargoyles, demons, the old ones, promethians, the kreeghor, the CCW, the Trans Galatic Empire, the UWW, all of Deval, a nightbane, a night lord, a nuke, a heavy combat borg, a tank, a CS Death Head with full armored division, The lord of the deep, the Ticondaroga, any of the Splugorth, any Veritech, any of the Invid, the SDF-1, Germany's Black Forest, the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse, the Warlords of Russia, The Geofront Military, Japan...I think I made my point.

All I have said is that he is to powerful as an unagumented human.
Yes, he is highly trained. Yes, he should get at least Commando. Yes, he should get a good number of skills. Yes, he deserves some sort of bonus to reflect his background. The problem is that its all just to much to put together like it is. His combination of a choice of two of the more powerful H2H skills, 30 starting skills, unlimited racial restrictions, and high level bonuses, is just simply to much to say "training did it". I just cannot see how any training short of a lifetime in the military, plus probably some slight form of augmentation could pull this off.

Also, in note to the Assassin skill, yes you are supposed to be of an Evil alignment. However the Paratrooper OCC makes a special note to point out that you may take this instead of Commando if you want to. Nothing about alignment, which it should say if alignment was a factor. Which is ridiculous in and of itself really.

I get what you're saying. I still just point simply to the CS Special forces. The difference being the 1 skill. Just one. Not tons. And the OOC bonuses. if you take those away, they're pretty much the same.

So that being said. 1 skill and the bonous' being the only difference. I don't think they're THAT huge a difference that can NOT be explained by the fact they're meant to be Delta's or SEALs.

the HTH assassin, if the skill itself requires an alignment thing then it's covered there. the paratrooper might have the option, but the skill itself has the prerequisite of being evil or selfish so it's covered.

All in all it's your game, your choices I just don't see literaly

1 single skill.
And a hand full of +1 to strike or +2 to parry bonous' being THAT much a difference to suddenly elevate the class to overpowered.



I ----do----- agree they're probably the strongest of the non augmented military classes. I DO think they're stronger than the others.

Totally. 100% agree.

TOTALLY agree.

I just think they're SUPPOSED to be. They are the Delta's or the Seals. As opposed to Green Berets or Rangers. For me, thhat's cool.

And again, I very much stipulate, if I played in your game and you went 'you can't have the OOC bonuses and you're deducted one skill!" to put them on par with CS Special forces. I'd high five you and say "party on Wayne." and not even blink an eye. Wouldn't bother me even in the slightest.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Well again, when you stack them up side by side, the class has 1 skill more than CS special forces.

It seems by and large most people have a problem with the title of the class more than anything. "A paratrooper should be a paratrooper" sort of thing, when I've pointed out, even in the class write up itself it says that's just a label. They're much more than 'Just paratroopers'

They're ment to be Delta/Seal/SAS type training. "The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers and Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

Perhaps if the OOC title was 'Elite Top End Special Forces" there'd be less flack?

yes, they have one more skill THAN ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY TRAINED UNITS ON THE CONTINENT. They have bonuses far beyond any other mercenary, and even if they where renamed "SUPER DUPER SOLDIER DUDE" I wouldn't allow them, because they still have too much power for their job description. I mean they can actually make better PA pilots then dedicated PA pilots.

They tie with the number of skills as the RPA class. It's part of the point. They're not that super crazy over and beyond. The only difference is the OOC bonuses, which aren't THAT much. +1 to strike and such. it does help, but it's not like they're ungodly. Seriously, Open the books and compare them side by side. The differences are minor.

Neurotic Cupcake wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:More than value (as mentioned by Pepsi Jedi) there are tactical advantages to parachutes. Primarily stealth. Radar is going to pickup a nuclear powered rocket pack or power armour like *snaps his fingers* THAT nearly every time but parachutes are small, portable (about the size of a backpack; and considering its Rifts maybe even smaller) and they give off no heat and won't show up as even a blip on a radar.

I think you have radar confused with something else.

I know that high-tech future sensors are going to read heat and that radar generally cannot detect anything that is made out of plastic or cloth (which is why stealth planes are made out of plastic). I was just trying to keep it as short as possible since people have sent me private complaints about my "long winded" posts where I explain things to people like they are children.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:And a hand full of +1 to strike or +2 to parry bonous' being THAT much a difference to suddenly elevate the class to overpowered.

I am going to bring up the White Rose Knights AGAIN.

Here is a class with bonuses to strike, parry and dodge in addition to magical abilities from extreme training. While people are attacking a dedicated Man at Arms for having simular bonuses. In my opinion a lot of Men at Arms should have these bonuses BECAUSE they do not have the skills of the Adventurers and Scholars (which means they level up more slowly in addition to normally requiring more experience to level) AND they lack the versatility or combat control of the general Practitioner of Magic. Case in point--is it overpowered that they are immune to horror factor? Not at all! Would I like to see a similar ability on more Men at Arms O.C.C.'s YES. Because it would give them something other than a little Cybernetics. It would mean they could contribute more in a game session because they could play the roll of someone who "is not afraid" to dash in there and grab his buddies and then get the hell out. I'm talking of course as a game master who pays careful attention to the quantity his players can contribute because of how the experience points system works in this game, from ideas to actions, no one has it harder than the poor Man at Arms who can often do little more than point and shoot.

So to stay on point, the Paratrooper probably shouldn't be Superior to the CS Commando but its just a matter of having better training. The USA has the largest and best funded military in the world but Australia still has better soldiers. For all your experience in war you guys some to us to train your guys because we train our guys BETTER. Like that, this is just a case of the CS Commando's training not being "as good" as the Paratroopers. It doesn't need to be. Keep in mind that the Paratrooper isn't walking around in Coalition Deadboy EBA either. Its the little details that matter; Rifts is all about situation and circumstance.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Well again, when you stack them up side by side, the class has 1 skill more than CS special forces.

It seems by and large most people have a problem with the title of the class more than anything. "A paratrooper should be a paratrooper" sort of thing, when I've pointed out, even in the class write up itself it says that's just a label. They're much more than 'Just paratroopers'

They're ment to be Delta/Seal/SAS type training. "The Paratroopers of Rifts Earth are the equivalent of 20th century Airborne, Navy SEALS, Army Rangers and Marines all rolled into one lethal package. Referred to as "Paratroopers' For simplicity's sake, these men and women are equally at home under the water, or riding on it, moving in on fast attack vehicles or parachuting in from the sky above"

Perhaps if the OOC title was 'Elite Top End Special Forces" there'd be less flack?

yes, they have one more skill THAN ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY TRAINED UNITS ON THE CONTINENT. They have bonuses far beyond any other mercenary, and even if they where renamed "SUPER DUPER SOLDIER DUDE" I wouldn't allow them, because they still have too much power for their job description. I mean they can actually make better PA pilots then dedicated PA pilots.

They tie with the number of skills as the RPA class. It's part of the point. They're not that super crazy over and beyond. The only difference is the OOC bonuses, which aren't THAT much. +1 to strike and such. it does help, but it's not like they're ungodly. Seriously, Open the books and compare them side by side. The differences are minor.

You know what the RPA can't take? Warships or ships, but the Paratrooper can. The Paratrooper can take ever skill the RPA can, plus more. You could have more Elite combats, mor physical skills, more weapon skills, anything.

The RPA has the same number of skills. So the Paratrooper doesn't get all of them plus more. They get the same amount. to GET the same skills the RPA has you have to use alot of 'other' skills on the paratrooper. *shrugs* So what's the damage? you can do the exact same thing with CS Special forces. Or Commando.

You're correct in saying that the paratrooper can take robot combat and power armor stuff, but so can most of the military OOCs. I'm unsure what the problem here is. RPA's get other skills to take stuff that the paratrooper gets. You can do that with MOST oocs. Many people do. I've seen some vagabonds here that could curb stomp your sterotypical Special forces guys. lol

Akashic Soldier wrote:@Flatline

More than value (as mentioned by Pepsi Jedi) there are tactical advantages to parachutes. Primarily stealth. Radar is going to pickup a nuclear powered rocket pack or power armour like *snaps his fingers* THAT nearly every time but parachutes are small, portable (about the size of a backpack; and considering its Rifts maybe even smaller) and they give off no heat and won't show up as even a blip on a radar. Paratroopers are supposed to be Commando's, which is why they drop in, hit hard and get out.

A parachute has no tactical advantages over a jet pack.

Size: They've both the size of a jet pack except that once you deploy a chute, it's HUGE. With a HUGE radar signature. Even if it's a special chute with no radar signature, the guy hanging from it has a radar signature. In a ideal world, the chute is deployed below radar coverage, but that assumed that there's 100s of miles between radar stations and that you know where those stations are so you can drop far away from them. Anyone with a helmet can have radar in Rifts earth, so that assumption doesn't hold water anymore.

Stealth: Jump from a plane and fall quickly towards the earth and then:
a) fire the jet pack in the last couple of seconds to land safely on the earth
b) deploy a chute and hang for minutes in the air, vulnerable to ground fire, being detected by enemy radar, and maybe getting dragged off course by a gust of wind.

Cost: a chute is probably significantly cheaper than a jet pack. Because it makes sense to spend a lot of money training these guys to be your elite troops just so you can skimp on equipment, right?

Extraction: Once the job is done you can fly out on your chute...no, that's the jet pack. The chute is a liability in this case because it can't get you out, yet you need to grab it unless you're willing to leave it behind as evidence of your mission.

As I said, in an age where jet packs exist, no case can be made for using a chute except as a diversion.

--flatline

Giant2005 wrote:Somebody has to be top dog when it comes to un-augmented humans. It stands to reason that the one with the greatest training should be considered top dog. Reading the Paratrooper fluff makes it fairly obvious that they have the highest training of the Soldier OCCs.
I do agree that they get way too many skills though - their combat training should take too much time to cater for much in the way of scholarly pursuits.

Pretty much. The Paratrooper OCC is a super-soldier through superior training, vs others like the Borg, Crazy and Juicer that are augmented. To me it's pretty much comparing a Delta Force or FBI HRT operator vs your standard soldier. To me if someone can train to become a Cyber-Knight, along with all their powers and abilities, then the Paratrooper should also be within that range.

In any event I've been playing a Paratrooper OCC since the book was released. None of the other players with Men-At-Arms OCC's have problems "competing" with me, and I don't know of any complaints to the GM that my character has somehow eclipsed another character. The biggest problem I see with it is lack of back story on the OCC itself. Something my GM and I hammered out eventually.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:First of all, I feel as though my arguments were misinterpruted. I agree, alone or with a just a couple of the bonuses, they arn't that bad. I am argueing that with all of the listed bonuses they are ridiculous. Yes, the sea dog gets more skills, and the commando gets applicable skills. HOWEVER, neither of them get the shear amount of bonuses and skills that this OCC does. I know about power creep. I mean look at Triax 2, those poor gargoyles never stood a chance in the first place...but the Paratrooper is ridiculous.

Here is a quote straight from the book about their ungodly training :

Mercenary Adventures pg. 30 wrote:All paratroopers are very well paid, second only to special forces operatives.

And before I hear about it, no. You cannont be more skilled and paid less, that's crap in the Merc. world, which is entirely what this is based off. I never have disagreed that they don't deserve Commando, or a solid amount of skills, or maybe some bonuses like every OCC will get from time to time. What I am saying is that, in comparison to any other mercenary or specially trained fromal army soldier, they have to much. They are better at level 1 than just about anyone.

Also you made the arguement that they are worse than a Juicer. Of course the Juicer is better! That's never been the debate, and honestly isn't anywhere close to what I have been talking about. I have never said that this un-agumented human could slap around a crazy, juicer, dragon, juicer varient, master psychic, cosmo-knight, cyber-knight, Supernatural D-Bee, vampires, high level mages, Godlings, Gods and Goddesses, the entire forces of the CS, all of the NGR, all of Free Quebec, gargoyles, demons, the old ones, promethians, the kreeghor, the CCW, the Trans Galatic Empire, the UWW, all of Deval, a nightbane, a night lord, a nuke, a heavy combat borg, a tank, a CS Death Head with full armored division, The lord of the deep, the Ticondaroga, any of the Splugorth, any Veritech, any of the Invid, the SDF-1, Germany's Black Forest, the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse, the Warlords of Russia, The Geofront Military, Japan...I think I made my point.

All I have said is that he is to powerful as an unagumented human.
Yes, he is highly trained. Yes, he should get at least Commando. Yes, he should get a good number of skills. Yes, he deserves some sort of bonus to reflect his background. The problem is that its all just to much to put together like it is. His combination of a choice of two of the more powerful H2H skills, 30 starting skills, unlimited racial restrictions, and high level bonuses, is just simply to much to say "training did it". I just cannot see how any training short of a lifetime in the military, plus probably some slight form of augmentation could pull this off.

Also, in note to the Assassin skill, yes you are supposed to be of an Evil alignment. However the Paratrooper OCC makes a special note to point out that you may take this instead of Commando if you want to. Nothing about alignment, which it should say if alignment was a factor. Which is ridiculous in and of itself really.

I get what you're saying. I still just point simply to the CS Special forces. The difference being the 1 skill. Just one. Not tons. And the OOC bonuses. if you take those away, they're pretty much the same.

So that being said. 1 skill and the bonous' being the only difference. I don't think they're THAT huge a difference that can NOT be explained by the fact they're meant to be Delta's or SEALs.

the HTH assassin, if the skill itself requires an alignment thing then it's covered there. the paratrooper might have the option, but the skill itself has the prerequisite of being evil or selfish so it's covered.

All in all it's your game, your choices I just don't see literaly

1 single skill.
And a hand full of +1 to strike or +2 to parry bonous' being THAT much a difference to suddenly elevate the class to overpowered.



I ----do----- agree they're probably the strongest of the non augmented military classes. I DO think they're stronger than the others.

Totally. 100% agree.

TOTALLY agree.

I just think they're SUPPOSED to be. They are the Delta's or the Seals. As opposed to Green Berets or Rangers. For me, thhat's cool.

And again, I very much stipulate, if I played in your game and you went 'you can't have the OOC bonuses and you're deducted one skill!" to put them on par with CS Special forces. I'd high five you and say "party on Wayne." and not even blink an eye. Wouldn't bother me even in the slightest.

I could see lowering them to a level, but if you look at any other Merc. OCC available from any of the standard Merc. books, as in not a backstory where you are playing an ex-CS operative, I just don't think they should be that powerful. The CS, NGR, FQ, etc. are all highly powerful military nations who make sure that their troops are literally the best of the best when it comes to being classified as Spec Ops and such.

I understand and agree that the Paratrooper OCC is highly trained, but honestly, most of those skills and bonuses would represent a lifetime of achievement in the military and wouldn't be straight out of boot camp. I would limit the bonuses to a minimum, halve the starting available OCC Related, and remove the Horror Factor Modification and probably give them a +2 to save and +1 at 3, 6, 9, 11, 13, 15. This would be more along the lines of a highly competent merc. soldier to me, keeping in mind that they are supposed to be second to the SF OCC. If you read the text it mentions how they are first strike, but then they fall back to support the SF teams. This should mean that they are slighly worse off than the SF. My modifications, to me at least, seem like they would put the OCC into a more balance position if you were to follow the canon text.

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:@Flatline

More than value (as mentioned by Pepsi Jedi) there are tactical advantages to parachutes. Primarily stealth. Radar is going to pickup a nuclear powered rocket pack or power armour like *snaps his fingers* THAT nearly every time but parachutes are small, portable (about the size of a backpack; and considering its Rifts maybe even smaller) and they give off no heat and won't show up as even a blip on a radar. Paratroopers are supposed to be Commando's, which is why they drop in, hit hard and get out.

A parachute has no tactical advantages over a jet pack.

Size: They've both the size of a jet pack except that once you deploy a chute, it's HUGE. With a HUGE radar signature. Even if it's a special chute with no radar signature, the guy hanging from it has a radar signature. In a ideal world, the chute is deployed below radar coverage, but that assumed that there's 100s of miles between radar stations and that you know where those stations are so you can drop far away from them. Anyone with a helmet can have radar in Rifts earth, so that assumption doesn't hold water anymore.

Stealth: Jump from a plane and fall quickly towards the earth and then:
a) fire the jet pack in the last couple of seconds to land safely on the earth
b) deploy a chute and hang for minutes in the air, vulnerable to ground fire, being detected by enemy radar, and maybe getting dragged off course by a gust of wind.

Cost: a chute is probably significantly cheaper than a jet pack. Because it makes sense to spend a lot of money training these guys to be your elite troops just so you can skimp on equipment, right?

Extraction: Once the job is done you can fly out on your chute...no, that's the jet pack. The chute is a liability in this case because it can't get you out, yet you need to grab it unless you're willing to leave it behind as evidence of your mission.

As I said, in an age where jet packs exist, no case can be made for using a chute except as a diversion.

--flatline

Simple case. Chute costs a few 100 credits. Jetpacks cost MANY times more. A gasoline powered one jumps to 38,000 bucks. $50,000 for electric or 350,000 for nuclear.
Now... assuming you do it on the cheep, go for Gaoline at 38,000, Lets assume you pay for good parachutes and go $500 each. Using the cheepest Jetpack and pretty expensive chutes, you're looking at being able to put SEVENTY SIX Parachute troops on the ground, instead of ONE jet pack troop.

THAT is the case for using chutes. And as per palladium's rules

Here's Palladium's write up for the parachuting skill which also points out some things.:

Military: Parachuting: This skill includes the methods, procedures, and techniques of parachuting, packing the chute, skydiving techniques, precision landing, landing without injury, and
practice of jumping from a high altitude aircraft. The advantage of parachuting is secrecy, since the troopers' insertion into enemy territory is silent and often goes unnoticed. The following three methods are the ones most commonly used by modern paratroopers:
High-Altitude-High-Opening (HAHO) jumps take place from a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. As the paratroopers drop, they travel laterally to the desired drop zone (DZ) where they wish to land. This technique is used to "throw off enemy units since they will probably search for paratroopers directly beneath the path of the aircraft.
High-Altitude-Low-Opening (HALO) operations also begin at 25,000 to 30,000 ft (7620 to 9144 m) but the paratrooper does not pop the chute until an altitude of 4,000 ft (1220 m), or even less. The jump takes place so rapidly that there is little chance for the paratroopers to be viewed after the chutes open.

The most dangerous method is Low-Altitude-Low-Opening (LALO) drops. The jump is made at the mere height of 300 to 500 ft (91 to 152 m). If there are any complications (a failed roll), the paratrooper is likely to be injured (broken bones) or killed (30% chance)! Even if the jump goes without a hitch, there is a 20% chance of taking 6D6 S.D.C. from an awkward landing, even if wearing M.D. armor.

Again I agree that if it were ME.. I'd WANT the Jetpack... but jetpacks are expensive. When you can field 75 more people for the same price, the 'reason' becomes quite clear.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Simple case. Chute costs a few 100 credits. Jetpacks cost MANY times more. A gasoline powered one jumps to 38,000 bucks. $50,000 for electric or 350,000 for nuclear.
Now... assuming you do it on the cheep, go for Gaoline at 38,000, Lets assume you pay for good parachutes and go $500 each. Using the cheepest Jetpack and pretty expensive chutes, you're looking at being able to put SEVENTY SIX Parachute troops on the ground, instead of ONE jet pack troop.

THAT is the case for using chutes. And as per palladium's rules

Here's Palladium's write up for the parachuting skill which also points out some things.:

Military: Parachuting: This skill includes the methods, procedures, and techniques of parachuting, packing the chute, skydiving techniques, precision landing, landing without injury, and
practice of jumping from a high altitude aircraft. The advantage of parachuting is secrecy, since the troopers' insertion into enemy territory is silent and often goes unnoticed. The following three methods are the ones most commonly used by modern paratroopers:
High-Altitude-High-Opening (HAHO) jumps take place from a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. As the paratroopers drop, they travel laterally to the desired drop zone (DZ) where they wish to land. This technique is used to "throw off enemy units since they will probably search for paratroopers directly beneath the path of the aircraft.
High-Altitude-Low-Opening (HALO) operations also begin at 25,000 to 30,000 ft (7620 to 9144 m) but the paratrooper does not pop the chute until an altitude of 4,000 ft (1220 m), or even less. The jump takes place so rapidly that there is little chance for the paratroopers to be viewed after the chutes open.

The most dangerous method is Low-Altitude-Low-Opening (LALO) drops. The jump is made at the mere height of 300 to 500 ft (91 to 152 m). If there are any complications (a failed roll), the paratrooper is likely to be injured (broken bones) or killed (30% chance)! Even if the jump goes without a hitch, there is a 20% chance of taking 6D6 S.D.C. from an awkward landing, even if wearing M.D. armor.

Again I agree that if it were ME.. I'd WANT the Jetpack... but jetpacks are expensive. When you can field 75 more people for the same price, the 'reason' becomes quite clear.

50k for an electric jetpack is less than what you're spending on his weapons.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Simple case. Chute costs a few 100 credits. Jetpacks cost MANY times more. A gasoline powered one jumps to 38,000 bucks. $50,000 for electric or 350,000 for nuclear.
Now... assuming you do it on the cheep, go for Gaoline at 38,000, Lets assume you pay for good parachutes and go $500 each. Using the cheepest Jetpack and pretty expensive chutes, you're looking at being able to put SEVENTY SIX Parachute troops on the ground, instead of ONE jet pack troop.

THAT is the case for using chutes. And as per palladium's rules

Here's Palladium's write up for the parachuting skill which also points out some things.:

Military: Parachuting: This skill includes the methods, procedures, and techniques of parachuting, packing the chute, skydiving techniques, precision landing, landing without injury, and
practice of jumping from a high altitude aircraft. The advantage of parachuting is secrecy, since the troopers' insertion into enemy territory is silent and often goes unnoticed. The following three methods are the ones most commonly used by modern paratroopers:
High-Altitude-High-Opening (HAHO) jumps take place from a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft. As the paratroopers drop, they travel laterally to the desired drop zone (DZ) where they wish to land. This technique is used to "throw off enemy units since they will probably search for paratroopers directly beneath the path of the aircraft.
High-Altitude-Low-Opening (HALO) operations also begin at 25,000 to 30,000 ft (7620 to 9144 m) but the paratrooper does not pop the chute until an altitude of 4,000 ft (1220 m), or even less. The jump takes place so rapidly that there is little chance for the paratroopers to be viewed after the chutes open.

The most dangerous method is Low-Altitude-Low-Opening (LALO) drops. The jump is made at the mere height of 300 to 500 ft (91 to 152 m). If there are any complications (a failed roll), the paratrooper is likely to be injured (broken bones) or killed (30% chance)! Even if the jump goes without a hitch, there is a 20% chance of taking 6D6 S.D.C. from an awkward landing, even if wearing M.D. armor.

Again I agree that if it were ME.. I'd WANT the Jetpack... but jetpacks are expensive. When you can field 75 more people for the same price, the 'reason' becomes quite clear.

50k for an electric jetpack is less than what you're spending on his weapons.

--flatline

And you can land 100 troops in Parachutes for the one guy in the electric jetpack.

You want one guy in a jetpack, or 100 troops on the ground? in a perfect world, sure we'd all have unlimited funds, but you asked for a reason people would use Parachutes instead of jetpacks, and the answer is simple. If you can land 75 to 100 troops for the same price as ONE troop... it's not hard to make that call.


Again, the first time I looked at it I was like "Wow man, who would do that in a setting that had jetpacks" then you look and see the literal 100 to 1 conversion and it makes all kinds of sense.

flatline wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:@Flatline

More than value (as mentioned by Pepsi Jedi) there are tactical advantages to parachutes. Primarily stealth. Radar is going to pickup a nuclear powered rocket pack or power armour like *snaps his fingers* THAT nearly every time but parachutes are small, portable (about the size of a backpack; and considering its Rifts maybe even smaller) and they give off no heat and won't show up as even a blip on a radar. Paratroopers are supposed to be Commando's, which is why they drop in, hit hard and get out.

A parachute has no tactical advantages over a jet pack.

Size: They've both the size of a jet pack except that once you deploy a chute, it's HUGE. With a HUGE radar signature. Even if it's a special chute with no radar signature, the guy hanging from it has a radar signature. In a ideal world, the chute is deployed below radar coverage, but that assumed that there's 100s of miles between radar stations and that you know where those stations are so you can drop far away from them. Anyone with a helmet can have radar in Rifts earth, so that assumption doesn't hold water anymore.

Stealth: Jump from a plane and fall quickly towards the earth and then:
a) fire the jet pack in the last couple of seconds to land safely on the earth
b) deploy a chute and hang for minutes in the air, vulnerable to ground fire, being detected by enemy radar, and maybe getting dragged off course by a gust of wind.

Cost: a chute is probably significantly cheaper than a jet pack. Because it makes sense to spend a lot of money training these guys to be your elite troops just so you can skimp on equipment, right?

Extraction: Once the job is done you can fly out on your chute...no, that's the jet pack. The chute is a liability in this case because it can't get you out, yet you need to grab it unless you're willing to leave it behind as evidence of your mission.

As I said, in an age where jet packs exist, no case can be made for using a chute except as a diversion.

--flatline

I know for a FACT that Parachutes do not show up on radar. Also, these days they can be steered... actually that's been true for a long long time now. Plus, I figure y'know... jet packs are LOUD... like I dunno a jet engine.

Plus!

WING SUIT!
Wing-Suit/Parachute

Akashic Soldier wrote:
I know for a FACT that Parachutes do not show up on radar.

And where did you learn this fact? Either you've misunderstood something or someone has lied to you.

If you had said that parachutes aren't tracked by radar, that would mostly be true since for the most part, military radar are concerned with aircraft and missiles and filter out such things as birds and bats and large bugs. But that's a post processing step. The radar most definitely "sees" those things. The radar sees anything that reflects enough signal to stand out from the background noise. A parachute definitely qualifies. So does the man hanging from it.

On Rifts Earth, you would most definitely not filter out man sized targets moving too slow to be a plane.

Also, these days they can be steered... actually that's been true for a long long time now. Plus, I figure y'know... jet packs are LOUD... like I dunno a jet engine.

You've got 100 square miles to search for something that made a 2 second whooshing sound. Good luck!

--flatline

30 seconds of googling returned this: http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-271576.html

Look at the first response: "Never seen Hot Air Balloons in the area, but our Watchman radar has no problem picking up microlights, and even detects parachutes from a paradropping sight a good 15 miles away! "

--flatline

Neurotic Cupcake wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:I know for a FACT that Parachutes do not show up on radar.

As I meant to imply in my first reply, you're clearly thinking of something else. Parachutes, man-sized targets, small birds, large insects... they all show up. Stealth aircraft avoid it through other means. That you think it avoids radar because they're made out of 'plastic' should have been one of those "Did I really just say that, because that sounds $#@&ing stupid?" moments in your life.

Yes I am an idiot and I have no idea what I am talking about. I also just wander around talking about things I have no idea about because I think its entertaining to look stupid. So.................... if I was to look at the current stealth bomber it would be made out of "other" and not plastic... because I mean last I heard with the whole. Nevermind. I'm a moron who knows nothing about military technology.

PS: Last time I checked ground radar could not detect anything smaller 15ft in dynamiter which is why they scramble aircraft to investigate sightings of odd area phenomena that do not show up on radar but have visual confirmation. Likewise, identifying targets at a known location such as the parachute drop point is different than doing standardized scans. Also Cupcape "Stealth aircraft are aircraft that use stealth technology to avoid detection through the experimental use of Cellon plastic transparent covering material.

But I am so ******* stupid that I just forgot that I dont know anything about what I am saying. Oh man how embarrassing.

Ninjabunny wrote:Radar detects anything it can bounce off of and give a return. Birds can be detected as well. Radar comes back to the Radar operator as a bunch of static and mess. To see through this mess the operator ignores small things that are classified as not being aircraft or missiles. Aircraft give off a bigger radar signature and move at a fast speed and missiles move at very high speeds. Anything that does not match this is not tracked. That is how the F-22 Raptor is stealthy. It can be tracked on radar but at the size of a bird. If you were to try to track a F-22 then you would have to track every bird in the sky which would be ludicrous

So yes it could detect a human or prarachute but highly doubtful it would be tracked. So yes no. To fly below radar is below 500AGL which would be 500ft at sea level. Radar travels in a straight line and the earth curves. The radar will eventually keep going in a straight line going higher in altitude. It also can not see around or through mountains, hills, buildings etc.

Thank you so much. I was half way through writing a small essay and drawing up diagrams in paint and you just went and saved me hours of work with a paragraph.