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Grug wrote:I hope I'm not coming off as too aggressive.
The op was about the the Brodkil not doing enough damage. And you didn't want to give the brodkil technology, cause you didn't want the player's to have access to that type of loot.

That's the common missreading.

No, the reason is in my main book a 3d6 rifle is 16k and 1. The villagers the brodkil steal from don't earn a great deal for the brodkil to steal 2. The brodkil don't save their stolen money - they enjoy life and spend their ill gotten gains on enjoyment as they really are tougher than a bunch of stuff in rifts anyway and 3. They can't steal the guns because the humans with such guns have a little bit of a brain in their head and don't just walk around alone as easy pickings (these guys saved their money and didn't buy a rifle and armour or bought them and hid them until they could join a group so as to gain strength in numbers). I don't feel this is a genius level of tactics for NPC humans. I just ran a simulation with a program - five guys with laser rifles can consistantly take down a brodkil. Just five guys. And if you'd argue there are more brodkil, there can just as much be more guys.

Which goes from 800 credits for a rifle to around 3k for a talisman.

Assuming whatever market force kept it at 30k is in play, yes. Perhaps the TV trope of 'magic is rare'?

I suspect rather than any sort of market force, people just want to have magic rare in their campaigns. Which like the moomoos you mention yourself, is one valid way of playing if you like.

eliakon wrote:

Noon wrote:
Do you lower the book price of weapons in your game, then?

Depends on who is buying and where. But yes. When my players contact a weapons manufacturer and say "I want to buy 20,000 rifles, with an option on 50,000 more (just happened in my most recent game). Then the manufacturer said "wonderful, looked at the cash payment." And started working out a huge discount (30% of list, with a bunch of freebies). The army that those PCs works for has a rifle (cost $900 it has been using, it pays $25 for)

What are the material and processing center costs of the rifles, if I understand the example correctly? They normally charge $900 but the material and process center cost is less than $25?

Why don't they just charge less normally, then? They'd make more sales?

Noon wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Noon wrote:

And I don't get where your side point comes from. I don't think anyone here has said anything about treasure built into monsters, other than some concern about the value of salvage....

Then you're missing comments like "Letting them have technology would benefit the player" - comments like this assume the only treasure to be had is the one on the monster.

For someone that decries that people are putting words in his mouth, I find it interesting that you are complaining about a quote that was never said. No one said anything about the tech being 'good loot' or any such. In fact the idea seemed to be that looting weapons was NOT a feasible way to get rich quickly (which would indicate that the weapons were not seen as the loot) Nor was there ever any comment that, in fact, there had to be loot.

Either I've mentioned 'good loot' or 'get rich quickly', or otherwise you've just put more words in my mouth without any evidence, just bluntly asserting it.

I imagine it feels like the height of debating for you? Ie, it wont get any better than this?

1) Personal attacks are not a form of debate, and in fact are reportable, so I would ask you not do so,
You have explicitly previously made it clear that you understand what an Ad Homenim attack is. Although you have been pretty free with making them.

Yes, I know what it is and if I were to note grammar or quote tag issues in your posts, it's a comment on your skills with such - not you (and please don't respond about my poor grammar - I wasn't commenting on your grammer (I didn't notice anything), this is just hypothetical example).

If you want to treat a comment on your skills (debating is a skill) as an attack on you, okay, that's how you treat it. I didn't and don't. If I wanted to make a personal attack, I'd have the guts to say it explicitly.

2) The words “Letting them have technology would benefit the player” were never typed in this session, so as such it is YOU who are putting words in people’s mouths

True, NM said "letting them have the technology they're said to favor would benefit the players".

To me, you're reading uncharitably. If you don't care, okay - but best to talk to people you do care to speak with charitably, then.

I am willing to continue this discussion provided you can keep it civil, stop leaping to the conclusion that everyone is misquoting you, and misquoting others. If that is not possible, then this is not a debate but just a shouting match, and I have little interest in that sort of activity.

If you are prepared to consider that you are misquoting, then as much I am prepared to consider I am misquoting.

If you only want me to consider it while you treat yourself as incapable of making such a mistake, that's an entirely lopsided affair and I'm not interesting in continuing that sort of discussion. Sure, only I am capable of misquoting.

Mutual consideration of error is just a basic rule of debate to me. However in alot of school debating teams it seems they teach them to never admit error - not even to themselves. So my idea of debate might be on the out.

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:It depends on whether, if one PC made a talisman and like gave it to another PC for, like, free - as a kind of team work, whether you'd say that isn't allowed, NM.

You really should read what I post, since I never said that wasn't anything that wouldn't be allowed, if anything your own arguments have been against anything like that. Certainly you've behaved as if technology, the preferred thing for Brodkil, could only somehow end up in their hands if they bought it and could never get into their hands otherwise

The more it costs in actual materials, the less likely anyone will just give them one. I'm not even saying these ones get it for free - the talismans are their wages for service.

and that as bandits they'd never be able to acquire such gear yet inexplicably mages would just be handing out magical gear that requires a high-level spell to craft along with large amounts of magical energy.

Mages never have a use for cheap soldiers is what you're saying. Okay.

Noon wrote:Or if one runs NPC mages like robots who can only ever charge book price because that's what's programmed into them, sure.

For people running games that way, I can see the problem in it.

Well you certainly sound like you're running NPC mages like robots, having them slaving away churning out talismans for tech-favoring creatures like Brodkil and doing it for free for the sole purpose of ensuring that the PC group can't find anything of value after their battles.

Okay, you've got it in your head its just to deny you the players anything of value at all (because there will be no other treasure, of course). Your argument hinges upon this.

Do you have any examples of your own play where play did not favour your character, but instead of a GM conspiracy it seemed just how the game world would be? Like maybe there was no treasure - but it didn't seem a miserly GM denying it, it just seemed to make sense you get no loot?

I'm kinda thinking any time play does not favour you, you just treat it as GM miserlyness regardless.

Noon wrote:

Grug wrote:I hope I'm not coming off as too aggressive.
The op was about the the Brodkil not doing enough damage. And you didn't want to give the brodkil technology, cause you didn't want the player's to have access to that type of loot.

That's the common missreading.

No, the reason is in my main book a 3d6 rifle is 16k and 1. The villagers the brodkil steal from don't earn a great deal for the brodkil to steal 2. The brodkil don't save their stolen money - they enjoy life and spend their ill gotten gains on enjoyment as they really are tougher than a bunch of stuff in rifts anyway and 3. They can't steal the guns because the humans with such guns have a little bit of a brain in their head and don't just walk around alone as easy pickings (these guys saved their money and didn't buy a rifle and armour or bought them and hid them until they could join a group so as to gain strength in numbers). I don't feel this is a genius level of tactics for NPC humans. I just ran a simulation with a program - five guys with laser rifles can consistantly take down a brodkil. Just five guys. And if you'd argue there are more brodkil, there can just as much be more guys.

time and time again you ignore flaws in your own argument and world setting.

asked before which books you even have, but you did not answer a wilks laser rifle i assume you mean doing 3d6 is $18k (resale most likely $1800 hardly enough to fix the armor if even one shot lands decent damage) even more extreme when you find 6D6 for 24K or 1D6x10 for 40k guns

now a low end job (CS grunt) pays 1700 a month on top of a lot of perks, many occ's start with "black market item worth X amount" meaning you could literally dig up a pre rift toaster, book or DVD and sell it to a collector through the black market on average you could buy it used in a month or two off of someone upgrading to a better weapon, 3-4 months of a resale agent making a profit, a busy prostitute charging a 100 creds a turn could get one in a few days, a merc taking even a low level contract could probably get a few depending how much the bounty was for (broodkill would make very good bounty hunters with their SN PS, 7-8 attacks per melee and natural invisibility)

now take into account, lots of new stronger guns are on the market the price for a wilks rifle could lower 10-20% (it is still a cheap ,popular and well known brand so there will always be a demand for it)


now #1 how much do your villagers make?, how do they make it? you said your players started with nothing and now have MD armor and weapons (presumably it did not take them years to do this and the NPC villagers could do the same)

#2 no, not "THE Brodkil" you mean YOUR broodkill, by canon they are lazy while not in combat but they have no need to spend money on "enjoyment" since one of the things they enjoy is taking what they want off weaker people (and possibly buying that plasma ejector off of someone they could not just take it from, since they have little need for money otherwise)

#3 according to you humans are too poor to own guns most of the time (and some that managed to buy a cheap pistol and some light armor just hide it hoping to team up with other people they trust not to slit their throat in their sleep and take their stuff ...i would not trust an idiot like that to be tactically aware enough to handle a SDC firearm let alone a MD laser) and you pit 1 retarded broodkill against 5 fully armed humans? the typical raiding party for broodkill is listed as from 6-24 are you going to have bands of 30-120 fully armed humans? what exactly did you arm them with and what armor did you give them? broodkill regenerate 2D6 MDC per hr armor does not regenerate (did you use your gimped lower MDC broodkill in this "simulation" of yours?)

broodkill might like to fight but they are not stupid and ambush predators easily able to hit when a band of humans is sleeping, or by picking them off one by one, even if the numbers were even (5 humans vs 5 broodkill) in the initial ambush 5 invisible broodkill suddenly appearing in melee range doing 2d6 MD each to one or two humans for an action or two, then once they are seen/wounded turing invisible again and running off to heal, only to do it again

i would bet that if you got 10 people here to run a trial of 5 RMB armored infantry type players vs 5 Brodkil (not your modified lower MDC broodkill) even without tech you would see the broodkill have a much higher win rate

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:It depends on whether, if one PC made a talisman and like gave it to another PC for, like, free - as a kind of team work, whether you'd say that isn't allowed, NM.

You really should read what I post, since I never said that wasn't anything that wouldn't be allowed, if anything your own arguments have been against anything like that. Certainly you've behaved as if technology, the preferred thing for Brodkil, could only somehow end up in their hands if they bought it and could never get into their hands otherwise

The more it costs in actual materials, the less likely anyone will just give them one. I'm not even saying these ones get it for free - the talismans are their wages for service.

and that as bandits they'd never be able to acquire such gear yet inexplicably mages would just be handing out magical gear that requires a high-level spell to craft along with large amounts of magical energy.

Mages never have a use for cheap soldiers is what you're saying. Okay.

Noon wrote:Or if one runs NPC mages like robots who can only ever charge book price because that's what's programmed into them, sure.

For people running games that way, I can see the problem in it.

Well you certainly sound like you're running NPC mages like robots, having them slaving away churning out talismans for tech-favoring creatures like Brodkil and doing it for free for the sole purpose of ensuring that the PC group can't find anything of value after their battles.

Okay, you've got it in your head its just to deny you the players anything of value at all (because there will be no other treasure, of course). Your argument hinges upon this.

Do you have any examples of your own play where play did not favour your character, but instead of a GM conspiracy it seemed just how the game world would be? Like maybe there was no treasure - but it didn't seem a miserly GM denying it, it just seemed to make sense you get no loot?

I'm kinda thinking any time play does not favour you, you just treat it as GM miserlyness regardless.

you should understand that given how many times you bring up "free talismans for your team mates" why people get stuck on that, you did mention i remember that they are working for this 'undead god' or whatever for the cheap power, but of course tech always has been stronger in straight up damage (you know the thing broodkill like and respect as 'strength') and the brodkil can just as easily sell their services for tech weapons, with better range , higher damage and using standard E-clips found anywhere and bought/charged easily

most mages in need of 'cheap soldiers' would probably sumon and bind them, make golems, raise skeliton's , mummy's or zombies etc

now not to answer for nightmask (but since they did manage to explain what i was trying to a few posts before i'll try tossing a hand in here too) "NM" didn't say the players would get nothing at all, they specifically said "after their battles." and given how terrified you seem of letting the players have anything of value it's not a far leap to assume whatever pay they get (and really "tresure? this isn't D&D there are not brodkill smuggling chests of gold coins) is probably low

you seem to be the type that likes grand epic scale games (assuming this undead god thing can afford the MD weapons to be a threat) but your players don't seem to know or are into it , otherwise they'd probably not be penny pinching trying to sell everything they got their hands on or giving it away to people in need


and for the last part again can't answer for NM, but i have been in games that things did not go my way, but that's just the way it was, either because i did not make the rolls or there was some other unexpected thing going on
but people have already pointed out the world you made does not make sense and it collapses in on itself because your logic is faulty , you really are being a miser, and an egotistical one at that

eliakon wrote:

Grug wrote:You are correct flatline. It is the talisman via the level 13 (I think 13) spell.
Now some books do state that an alchemist can recharge them too. But who knows what the alchemist population is in rifts.

Which is useful, but irrelevant since no canon talisman/item works like the proposed device. Ergo its a custom homebrewed enchantment, which means that with out any more knowledge about it we can even speculate about its costs in any meaningful way.

Not homebrewed: "only the sorcerer who made it, or an alchemist, can recharge it." (PF 215)

Giant2005 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Grug wrote:You are correct flatline. It is the talisman via the level 13 (I think 13) spell.
Now some books do state that an alchemist can recharge them too. But who knows what the alchemist population is in rifts.

Which is useful, but irrelevant since no canon talisman/item works like the proposed device. Ergo its a custom homebrewed enchantment, which means that with out any more knowledge about it we can even speculate about its costs in any meaningful way.

Not homebrewed: "only the sorcerer who made it, or an alchemist, can recharge it." (PF 215)

Shouldn't be hard to find one of those given the setting presented to us magic not technology is dominant, such that Talismans are easily found in the hands of dirt poor bandits (something of an oxymoron that) so there must be plenty of Alchemists around to recharge them.

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:It depends on whether, if one PC made a talisman and like gave it to another PC for, like, free - as a kind of team work, whether you'd say that isn't allowed, NM.

You really should read what I post, since I never said that wasn't anything that wouldn't be allowed, if anything your own arguments have been against anything like that. Certainly you've behaved as if technology, the preferred thing for Brodkil, could only somehow end up in their hands if they bought it and could never get into their hands otherwise

The more it costs in actual materials, the less likely anyone will just give them one. I'm not even saying these ones get it for free - the talismans are their wages for service

There's far more than simply material cost involved in things, something you keep ignoring. PPE to cast such an expensive spell isn't that easy to pull off, the spell itself isn't easy to acquire, and those talismans are poor wages that tech-favoring sorts like Brodkil would be really unlikely to be bought off with considering they only have a few uses and they have to go back to the guy who made them to get them recharged unlike an energy weapon that has far more shots before it runs down and can be recharged in a much wider range of places so that they aren't basically 'wage slaves' living in what amounts to a company town because it's the only place they can spend their company money at.

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:and that as bandits they'd never be able to acquire such gear yet inexplicably mages would just be handing out magical gear that requires a high-level spell to craft along with large amounts of magical energy.

Mages never have a use for cheap soldiers is what you're saying. Okay.

Not even remotely what I said, as in 'not even in the same universe'. You on the other hand certainly seem to think magic items that require a high level and therefor rare spell are in abundance and that every mage has the spell and goes around crafting Talismans to hand out to even the lest valuable of minions rather than providing them with cheap and far more plentiful energy weapons that have far more 'charges' and can deal far more damage and far cheaper overall.

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:Or if one runs NPC mages like robots who can only ever charge book price because that's what's programmed into them, sure.

For people running games that way, I can see the problem in it.

Well you certainly sound like you're running NPC mages like robots, having them slaving away churning out talismans for tech-favoring creatures like Brodkil and doing it for free for the sole purpose of ensuring that the PC group can't find anything of value after their battles.

Okay, you've got it in your head its just to deny you the players anything of value at all (because there will be no other treasure, of course). Your argument hinges upon this.

Do you have any examples of your own play where play did not favour your character, but instead of a GM conspiracy it seemed just how the game world would be? Like maybe there was no treasure - but it didn't seem a miserly GM denying it, it just seemed to make sense you get no loot?

I'm kinda thinking any time play does not favour you, you just treat it as GM miserlyness regardless.

You are of course dead wrong on that on all points, and I haven't 'gotten it in my head' your own posts have all been about how to ensure that your brodkil are a threat while having nothing the PC group can make off with of value. That's not me, that's all what you yourself have said. You've stated you don't want your brodkil to have energy weapons or gear because then the PC can take them and resell them or use them, therefor you have made it clear that you are skewing things against the group so that they only have losses and no gains (outside of experience) when encountering them. Since you seem to be using them as your primary threat to the group you're intentionally arranging it so that all they do is damage the group and the group can't even recoup any of their losses, so that how they started seems to be the best they'll have right up to the boss battle, rather than having grown and become seasoned and equipped for such a battle. Even the average Nintendo Hard video game has better payoffs.

Plus since everyone's so dirt poor in your game there's no reasonable expectation of even finding any rewards anywhere, how does anyone even have money to pay them to do the mercenary thing for them when you've got it that no one can even afford the cheapest of energy weapons or body armor? Your setting sounds so subsidence level that there can't be any kind of businesses or economy because no one has any money for anything and barely managing to feed themselves and find clothing and shelter.

Really, there's earning what you acquire so as to improve things in some fashion and then there's 'why am I wasting my time playing this game? I'm not getting anywhere, I'm only being beat down and spinning my wheels'. Every fight doesn't have to have something useful but at least SOME ought to, and 'well all their opponents have magic stuff so that it's useless to the group so they can't make a credit anywhere' comes under the heading of 'GM making sure the group is kept poor and wanting'.

Giant2005 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Grug wrote:You are correct flatline. It is the talisman via the level 13 (I think 13) spell.
Now some books do state that an alchemist can recharge them too. But who knows what the alchemist population is in rifts.

Which is useful, but irrelevant since no canon talisman/item works like the proposed device. Ergo its a custom homebrewed enchantment, which means that with out any more knowledge about it we can even speculate about its costs in any meaningful way.

Not homebrewed: "only the sorcerer who made it, or an alchemist, can recharge it." (PF 215)

Yes that applies to the Talisman spell. Whatever this is, its not the Talisman spell

it requires sacrificing 30 MD to get
it takes a turn to activate
and then it lets you through Firebolt spells with every attack for a turn

[quote="Noon"}I'm thinking of giving them amulets that after one round let the brodkil cast firebolt each attack, for one melee. I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players and it doesn't quite match theme - the brodkil generally use their toughness to get through life and spend their loot on pleasure, not tactically apt things. Anyway, the amulet will burn out after that but is maybe worth 100 credits for materials if sold, so the players get some loot. Also the brodkil has to give up about 30 MDC of it's own to gain this power.[/quote]

Its a unique enchantment unlike anything in any book.....ergo its totally homebrew.

eliakon wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Grug wrote:You are correct flatline. It is the talisman via the level 13 (I think 13) spell.
Now some books do state that an alchemist can recharge them too. But who knows what the alchemist population is in rifts.

Which is useful, but irrelevant since no canon talisman/item works like the proposed device. Ergo its a custom homebrewed enchantment, which means that with out any more knowledge about it we can even speculate about its costs in any meaningful way.

Not homebrewed: "only the sorcerer who made it, or an alchemist, can recharge it." (PF 215)

Yes that applies to the Talisman spell. Whatever this is, its not the Talisman spell

it requires sacrificing 30 MD to get
it takes a turn to activate
and then it lets you through Firebolt spells with every attack for a turn

[quote="Noon"}I'm thinking of giving them amulets that after one round let the brodkil cast firebolt each attack, for one melee. I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players and it doesn't quite match theme - the brodkil generally use their toughness to get through life and spend their loot on pleasure, not tactically apt things. Anyway, the amulet will burn out after that but is maybe worth 100 credits for materials if sold, so the players get some loot. Also the brodkil has to give up about 30 MDC of it's own to gain this power.

Its a unique enchantment unlike anything in any book.....ergo its totally homebrew.[/quote]

It also breaks so you can't recharge/reuse it, to ensure it's worthless to the PC group. Assuming that's a permanent MDC loss it also means those Brodkil are the dumbest brodkil ever, using an item that permanently weakens them which is completely contrary to their devotion to strength and being ruthless thugs taking what they want. The talisman in question does the opposite of give them strength, it makes them weak and pitiful as it eats away at their MDC and doesn't even last any kind of length to make it worthwhile. Unless those fireballs rivaled a Glitter Boy's Boomgun in damage capacity and range those talismans really don't sound like anything a brodkil would ever want to use, unlike a nice reliable energy weapon that doesn't siphon away their toughness.

Let's remember what's important. If everyone is having fun, then the GM is doing just fine.

Creating encounters where the players come out behind even if they win might be exactly what the group wants.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Let's remember what's important. If everyone is having fun, then the GM is doing just fine.

Creating encounters where the players come out behind even if they win might be exactly what the group wants.

--flatline

Well that is something we're trying to figure out, since what we've heard so far doesn't sound like fun. Certainly how it's been presented it doesn't sound like the group could be having much fun.

Rappanui wrote:unlimited use of fire bolt? Sounds like a custom spell.. or a power circle converted into a talisman..

Not unlimited, just for a single melee. You can replace all your attacks with fire bolts instead, you just have to sacrifice 30 MDC for those few shots, I'm sure it's something that would be exceptionally appealing over a laser rifle with 3 times the shots and no need to lose MDC and dealing as much or more damage.

Nightmask wrote:

Rappanui wrote:unlimited use of fire bolt? Sounds like a custom spell.. or a power circle converted into a talisman..

Not unlimited, just for a single melee. You can replace all your attacks with fire bolts instead, you just have to sacrifice 30 MDC for those few shots, I'm sure it's something that would be exceptionally appealing over a laser rifle with 3 times the shots and no need to lose MDC and dealing as much or more damage.

don't forget the first post "another power I gave them that makes them give up 80 MDC, that brings them down to 140 MDC, which is probably about the point the players were getting a little tired of the battle"

so brodkil gave up 110 MDC for a crap talisman and another as yet unidentified homebrew power

(also with better salvage to use , or sell and get some heavy damage weapons they probably wouldn't get bored of fighting in the time it takes to inflict 140 mdc)

PSI-Lence wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Rappanui wrote:unlimited use of fire bolt? Sounds like a custom spell.. or a power circle converted into a talisman..

Not unlimited, just for a single melee. You can replace all your attacks with fire bolts instead, you just have to sacrifice 30 MDC for those few shots, I'm sure it's something that would be exceptionally appealing over a laser rifle with 3 times the shots and no need to lose MDC and dealing as much or more damage.

don't forget the first post "another power I gave them that makes them give up 80 MDC, that brings them down to 140 MDC, which is probably about the point the players were getting a little tired of the battle"

so brodkil gave up 110 MDC for a crap talisman and another as yet unidentified homebrew power

(also with better salvage to use , or sell and get some heavy damage weapons they probably wouldn't get bored of fighting in the time it takes to inflict 140 mdc)

Yes, the 'well they're too lazy and unmotivated tactically' description of brodkil to try and explain why they'd go with that stuff just doesn't fly either when you actually take any time to think about it. Lazy doesn't equal stupid, nor does having limited tactical planning ability. Weapons are a source of strength and power (just try and convince a gang banger that guns don't give you power), and all lazy means is 'well I just beat this dude up and stole his stuff rather than working a job and buying it' when you're talking about brutish thug sorts that only respect strength.

Lazy or motivated something like a brodkil particularly a bandit is going to want energy weapons because they're a sign of strength and power AND because they're very much actual strength and power, the magical replacements provide the exact opposite of strength and do a much better job ensuring they end up dead rather than winners to fight again another day. Word should end up getting around that those 'rewards' are schmuck bait and the brodkil do anything but work for someone using them as cannon fodder and arranging it so that they're sure to lose.

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:It depends on whether, if one PC made a talisman and like gave it to another PC for, like, free - as a kind of team work, whether you'd say that isn't allowed, NM.

You really should read what I post, since I never said that wasn't anything that wouldn't be allowed, if anything your own arguments have been against anything like that. Certainly you've behaved as if technology, the preferred thing for Brodkil, could only somehow end up in their hands if they bought it and could never get into their hands otherwise

The more it costs in actual materials, the less likely anyone will just give them one. I'm not even saying these ones get it for free - the talismans are their wages for service

There's far more than simply material cost involved in things, something you keep ignoring. PPE to cast such an expensive spell isn't that easy to pull off,

Are you saying your way of playing is the one true way? In that it just has to be hard to pull off?

It's just 500 PPE - there are plenty of ways to get that together! Just by regular rules use.

Maybe you love magic being supa rare in your games - but it's no reason to tell someone that there's just one way to play (no, you said 'it isn't that easy to pull off', not 'in my game it isn't that easy to pull off')

the spell itself isn't easy to acquire,

If you've nerfed shifters or the rifts ultimate edition has nerfed shifters, okay.

and those talismans are poor wages that tech-favoring sorts like Brodkil would be really unlikely to be bought off with considering they only have a few uses and they have to go back to the guy who made them to get them recharged unlike an energy weapon that has far more shots before it runs down and can be recharged in a much wider range of places so that they aren't basically 'wage slaves' living in what amounts to a company town because it's the only place they can spend their company money at.

You've repeatedly called upon 'favouring' as if it makes a point.

Are you saying that if someone favours an option, they get that option available to them?

If that's how it is in your game, cool.

But when favouring in no way affects whether you get access to what you favour, 'favouring' makes absolutely no point at all.

You can't always get what you want.

But if you try sometimes, you just might find...

...what you neeeeeed....

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:and that as bandits they'd never be able to acquire such gear yet inexplicably mages would just be handing out magical gear that requires a high-level spell to craft along with large amounts of magical energy.

Mages never have a use for cheap soldiers is what you're saying. Okay.

Not even remotely what I said, as in 'not even in the same universe'. You on the other hand certainly seem to think magic items that require a high level and therefor rare spell are in abundance and that every mage has the spell and goes around crafting Talismans to hand out to even the lest valuable of minions rather than providing them with cheap and far more plentiful energy weapons that have far more 'charges' and can deal far more damage and far cheaper overall.

You think it's really, really hard to get PPE. You're not prepared to say that's in your own campaign - you think it's just the one true way to play the game - but since you think it's really really hard to get PPE and laser rifles become cheap in comparison to how hard it is, I'll pay in that circumstance you are correct.

It just doesn't appear that hard to me - it seems dang easy to get together PPE (out of combat).

Noon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Noon wrote:Or if one runs NPC mages like robots who can only ever charge book price because that's what's programmed into them, sure.

For people running games that way, I can see the problem in it.

Well you certainly sound like you're running NPC mages like robots, having them slaving away churning out talismans for tech-favoring creatures like Brodkil and doing it for free for the sole purpose of ensuring that the PC group can't find anything of value after their battles.

Okay, you've got it in your head its just to deny you the players anything of value at all (because there will be no other treasure, of course). Your argument hinges upon this.

Do you have any examples of your own play where play did not favour your character, but instead of a GM conspiracy it seemed just how the game world would be? Like maybe there was no treasure - but it didn't seem a miserly GM denying it, it just seemed to make sense you get no loot?

I'm kinda thinking any time play does not favour you, you just treat it as GM miserlyness regardless.

You are of course dead wrong on that on all points,

Why 'of course'? That makes absolutely no sense - what, I have the mark of 'the wrong' on me?

I should really stop - I doubt you'd agree with me the sky is blue, about now.

and I haven't 'gotten it in my head' your own posts have all been about how to ensure that your brodkil are a threat while having nothing the PC group can make off with of value.

Again the assumption treasure has to be built into the monster - because here I haven't built one in then you falsely assume the PC 'have nothing the PC group can make off with of value'

Then some other poster tries to deny anyone says that. It's tiresome.

That's not me, that's all what you yourself have said. You've stated you don't want your brodkil to have energy weapons or gear because then the PC can take them and resell them or use them,

Words put in my mouth.

therefor you have made it clear that you are skewing things against the group so that they only have losses and no gains (outside of experience) when encountering them. Since you seem to be using them as your primary threat to the group you're intentionally arranging it so that all they do is damage the group and the group can't even recoup any of their losses, so that how they started seems to be the best they'll have right up to the boss battle, rather than having grown and become seasoned and equipped for such a battle. Even the average Nintendo Hard video game has better payoffs.

Words put in my mouth.

Plus since everyone's so dirt poor in your game there's no reasonable expectation of even finding any rewards anywhere, how does anyone even have money to pay them to do the mercenary thing for them when you've got it that no one can even afford the cheapest of energy weapons or body armor? Your setting sounds so subsidence level that there can't be any kind of businesses or economy because no one has any money for anything and barely managing to feed themselves and find clothing and shelter.

Really, there's earning what you acquire so as to improve things in some fashion and then there's 'why am I wasting my time playing this game? I'm not getting anywhere, I'm only being beat down and spinning my wheels'. Every fight doesn't have to have something useful but at least SOME ought to, and 'well all their opponents have magic stuff so that it's useless to the group so they can't make a credit anywhere' comes under the heading of 'GM making sure the group is kept poor and wanting'.

Whoever ran that game for you really burnt you, didn't they?

You've really got something to say to the guy that ran that bad game for you - but the best you've got is a surrogate in me.

Let it out. He really, really annoyed you. Just let it all out on the surrogate. All out.

But I'm never gunna make up for that bad game that other GM made you play in.

I know, it sucked - he never let you have anything, did he?

Noon wrote: I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players

words directly from your mouth

and you'll notice once again you misread someone else's quote


" your brodkil are a threat while having nothing the PC group can make off with of value."


see that? 'make off with' as in nothing they can take from the broodkill , doesn't say they have absolutely nothing else of value, though if fights with broodkill took so long i bet they have some 1d6 pistols and can't afford even a decent laser rifle so doesn't sound like they are getting much in reward but sounds a lot like they are getting it in both end's

It is pertty much impossible for a Brodkil to have nothing of value to the players.
Their eyes sell for 4,000 credits each, their claws sell for 5,000-10,000 credits each and their tongue sells for 15,000 credits.
Even if they replace all of that with Bionic counterparts, the Bionics still have value. the only way you are going to be able to make killing a Brodkil worthless is by making him some kind of invalid that has everything of value already removed and replaced with nothing.

Giant2005 wrote:It is pertty much impossible for a Brodkil to have nothing of value to the players.
Their eyes sell for 4,000 credits each, their claws sell for 5,000-10,000 credits each and their tongue sells for 15,000 credits.
Even if they replace all of that with Bionic counterparts, the Bionics still have value. the only way you are going to be able to make killing a Brodkil worthless is by making him some kind of invalid that has everything of value already removed and replaced with nothing.

I guess he needs a magical death-bomb immolator that instantly disintegrates the bodies upon death so that they're the ultimate in resource draining/give back nothing opponents since that seems to be their purpose. That seems to be what all fights are meant to be, drains on resources, or at least all brodkil fights are meant to be worthless.

PSI-Lence wrote:

Noon wrote: I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players

words directly from your mouth

Read it again.

Giant2005 wrote:It is pertty much impossible for a Brodkil to have nothing of value to the players.
Their eyes sell for 4,000 credits each, their claws sell for 5,000-10,000 credits each and their tongue sells for 15,000 credits.
Even if they replace all of that with Bionic counterparts, the Bionics still have value. the only way you are going to be able to make killing a Brodkil worthless is by making him some kind of invalid that has everything of value already removed and replaced with nothing.

Do they? What book is that in? Is it to alchemists?

I might suggest that to players next time (I think it'd be more bad ass to sell their demon hearts - but the cannon police might get me for such a huge change, so better not of course).

But lets get back to it not being about what the Brodkil would have on them/in them, but instead people telling me my intent is to remove all loot (because not adding extra loot is the same as not adding any loot, apparently).

Noon wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:

Noon wrote: I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players

words directly from your mouth

Read it again.

it still say's the same thing as the first time you posted it

Noon wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It is pertty much impossible for a Brodkil to have nothing of value to the players.
Their eyes sell for 4,000 credits each, their claws sell for 5,000-10,000 credits each and their tongue sells for 15,000 credits.
Even if they replace all of that with Bionic counterparts, the Bionics still have value. the only way you are going to be able to make killing a Brodkil worthless is by making him some kind of invalid that has everything of value already removed and replaced with nothing.

Do they? What book is that in? Is it to alchemists?

I might suggest that to players next time (I think it'd be more bad ass to sell their demon hearts - but the cannon police might get me for such a huge change, so better not of course).

But lets get back to it not being about what the Brodkil would have on them/in them, but instead people telling me my intent is to remove all loot (because not adding extra loot is the same as not adding any loot, apparently).

nobody said remove "all" loot , but you are gimping brodkil and trying to say that's the way that makes sense, nobody cares that you completely ignore canon on this (though you should have opened with "i don't want canon examples i want people to stroke my ego and tell me my way is 'teh koolz'") many people pointed out that even in the world you set your economy makes no sense same for your reasoning on brodkil and magic weapons over tech

people have given you dozens of examples on how brodkil could get the weapons much easier than the "talismans" and ways to counter balance what *you* think is "extra loot" but you always ignore that (do you not understand? we could try explaining in smaller words) and fight people about how it doesn't make sense because you don't want it too


one thing i always ignore from canon is alignment but assuming you aren't any "good" player ripping teeth, claws eyes and organ out of brodkill would see a slide in alignment

Noon wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It is pertty much impossible for a Brodkil to have nothing of value to the players.
Their eyes sell for 4,000 credits each, their claws sell for 5,000-10,000 credits each and their tongue sells for 15,000 credits.
Even if they replace all of that with Bionic counterparts, the Bionics still have value. the only way you are going to be able to make killing a Brodkil worthless is by making him some kind of invalid that has everything of value already removed and replaced with nothing.

Do they? What book is that in? Is it to alchemists?

I might suggest that to players next time (I think it'd be more bad ass to sell their demon hearts - but the cannon police might get me for such a huge change, so better not of course).

But lets get back to it not being about what the Brodkil would have on them/in them, but instead people telling me my intent is to remove all loot (because not adding extra loot is the same as not adding any loot, apparently).

Alchemists or any magic store really.
It is described in the Necromancy section - they are the ones that really want that stuff.
Necromancers pay a lot more for that stuff though, the prices I listed are what the stores buy them for.

Noon, what exactly were you looking for with your original post, or this topic in general?

Was it just a I created this item, with this ability, and these drawbacks to make my Brodkil do a bit more damage for a short time, do you guys like it, or could you help me improve upon it, or is there another way to do this?

Becasue that is what I took away from the original post, and it appears that is what others took away as well. So far it seems like most everyone else says ok that is fine it is your game you can do what you want. But based on canon we would have just done it this way.

You seem to be the one that is unwilling to accept that the rest of us would have handled it differently than you did.

Or were you just looking for a quick, oh that is an interesting way to do things, nice job?

What exactly were you looking for with your original post and this topic?

42dragon,

'Anyone else find that supernatural creatures barely put a scratch into players (well, the ones that are iconic of rifts, but only do 1D6 to 2D6 MD)? Especially if the player has armour of ithan?'

To extend that; also unintelligent creatures who do not wield weapons and do 1D6 to 2D6).

You seem to be the one that is unwilling to accept that the rest of us would have handled it differently than you did.

Does it just 'seem to' be that way or are you just saying it is the case?

Assuming it's the former, I think the open minded approach would to be to humour that it could be you and/or others that can't accept someone did something differently. Shall we both (you and me!) consider that as possibly applying to ourselves? I'm not really interested in the lopsided version where only I have to consider I might be while yourself and others are immune from considering it could apply to yourselves - that just seems incredibly biased (unless I'm speaking with deities or something)

Noon wrote:42dragon,

'Anyone else find that supernatural creatures barely put a scratch into players (well, the ones that are iconic of rifts, but only do 1D6 to 2D6 MD)? Especially if the player has armour of ithan?'

To extend that; also unintelligent creatures who do not wield weapons and do 1D6 to 2D6).

You seem to be the one that is unwilling to accept that the rest of us would have handled it differently than you did.

Does it just 'seem to' be that way or are you just saying it is the case?

Assuming it's the former, I think the open minded approach would to be to humour that it could be you and/or others that can't accept someone did something differently. Shall we both (you and me!) consider that as possibly applying to ourselves? I'm not really interested in the lopsided version where only I have to consider I might be while yourself and others are immune from considering it could apply to yourselves - that just seems incredibly biased (unless I'm speaking with deities or something)

out of 4 pages nobody has agreed you were right, and that's even trying to work within your rules you laid out, you are unwilling to say "tech doesn't exist in my world" (if you were running it as a palladium fantasy it might work) but when people point out how your world collapses in on itself when trying to be supported by your "logic" you ignore it, you also ignore direct questions that would have you prove your world doesn't make sense if you answered the question

I think this thread is pretty much tapped out of any relevance....

I have never found that supernatural creatures have a hard time hurting player characters.

Especially if you use a creature or moster like the Brodkil that also use technology, then the pendulum swings to way in favor of the creature. And it doesn't require you to make up a magic item, that provides a very small temporary damage boost and at the same time significantly weakens the user.

I think the LLW is about level 8 now. So that's 80 MDC regains with one attack by casting armour of ithan. I think the duration between battles does more damage to him, effectively, than the supernatural creatures (ie, the armour of ithan duration elapses and it is 'destroyed' that way far more so by time than by enemies)

Also in campaigns where what you favour using is what you get access to, sure, the Brodkil use laser rifles or whatever tech. I've already acknowledged that.

Edit to add: I presume people take some amount of canon sparsity of resources to apply - for example you wouldn't have a Brodkil in Rifts Australia have the exact same amount of tech it'd have in your campaigns north America?

Ie, folk don't just read it that because Brodkil favour tech, that in Rifts Australia they'd get whatever they want.

hypothetical example: I'm running a north America campaign. I'm just asking whether people accept that one canon (sparsity of resources) can affect another canon (Brodkil favour tech weapons and thus get tech weapons)?

Noon wrote:I think the LLW is about level 8 now. So that's 80 MDC regains with one attack by casting armour of ithan. I think the duration between battles does more damage to him, effectively, than the supernatural creatures (ie, the armour of ithan duration elapses and it is 'destroyed' that way far more so by time than by enemies)

Also in campaigns where what you favour using is what you get access to, sure, the Brodkil use laser rifles or whatever tech. I've already acknowledged that.

Edit to add: I presume people take some amount of canon sparsity of resources to apply - for example you wouldn't have a Brodkil in Rifts Australia have the exact same amount of tech it'd have in your campaigns north America?

Ie, folk don't just read it that because Brodkil favour tech, that in Rifts Australia they'd get whatever they want.

hypothetical example: I'm running a north America campaign. I'm just asking whether people accept that one canon (sparsity of resources) can affect another canon (Brodkil favour tech weapons and thus get tech weapons)?

I would think that Brodkil stuck in Australia would WANT "big shootaz with moar dakka" they would use what was available of course, but they would be all over tech (or tw) weapons in a heartbeat. As a result I would think that they would be one of the most likely to have tech weapons in an encounter, since they would be likely to try to get some, and are perfectly capable of looting and stealing.
I also would expect them to be the types armed with flamethrowers since that is a terror weapon in Australia.

^this

australia has tech weapons too

and since your "brodkil" are obviously at least mid level (with the MDC they can afford to give away for "talisman's") they have had a while to get their hands on tech weapons

eliakon wrote:As a result I would think that they would be one of the most likely to have tech weapons in an encounter, since they would be likely to try to get some, and are perfectly capable of looting and stealing.

If they had an equal choice between magic and tech, I absolutely agree they'd choose tech.

Even if they slightly had to do more work to get the tech in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd put some effort in.

If tech took a huge amount of life threatening effort or just can't be gained, in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd resent ending up having to use magic.

Noon wrote:

eliakon wrote:As a result I would think that they would be one of the most likely to have tech weapons in an encounter, since they would be likely to try to get some, and are perfectly capable of looting and stealing.

If they had an equal choice between magic and tech, I absolutely agree they'd choose tech.

Even if they slightly had to do more work to get the tech in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd put some effort in.

If tech took a huge amount of life threatening effort or just can't be gained, in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd resent ending up having to use magic.

as pretty much everyone in this thread has pointed out the magic 'talismans' you "give them" are more life threatening than anything else
even if magic had a 50/50 foothold for availability with technology (which it does not) technology in this regard is still vastly superior

you keep saying how they are 'lazy' but you do realize they *like* combat and killing right? that's not 'work' it's *fun* , the lazyness comes in when it doesn't involve just taking what they want, brodkill would be too lazy to farm, or do factory work for money when they can just rip the arms off someone...and then rip the gun out of their dangling hands

brodkil are also not stupid they like strength and technology makes them stronger, would they throw away a ruin sword if they found one? probably not, but would they give up nearly half their mdc for a crappy "talisman" and "other special power" that you gave them? no

Noon wrote:

eliakon wrote:As a result I would think that they would be one of the most likely to have tech weapons in an encounter, since they would be likely to try to get some, and are perfectly capable of looting and stealing.

If they had an equal choice between magic and tech, I absolutely agree they'd choose tech.

Even if they slightly had to do more work to get the tech in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd put some effort in.

If tech took a huge amount of life threatening effort or just can't be gained, in a choice between tech and magic, I'd agree they'd resent ending up having to use magic.

Except you're rigging it in favor of magic, from contriving tech being far more rare and impossible to acquire than it actually is and making out magic to be implausibly plentiful and common. Especially given the magic you're insisting that they'd accept they wouldn't because it runs contrary to their nature, it takes strength from them making them weak and gives them no real benefit. You've stopped running a Rifts game when your setting is magic-dominant and technology practically non-existent, and monsters that revere strength and favor technology take and use weak magic trinkets that do more to leave them weak and vulnerable rather than strong.

Let's remember everyone, that this is a game where we are meant to have fun.

As you all continue to discuss this great game, try to get along. Try not to put words into each others mouths [or posts as the case is].