Rolplaying Games and the 1-shot Kill

[Killer Cyborg]

I think bleeding is governed in SDC and it's 1 point per minute.

Yup.
Just like the coma rules allow you to survive negative HIT POINTS equal to your PE.
Straight RAW, MDC creatures can't bleed to death, and the can't survive at -1 MDC.
But it think it's reasonable to assume that MDC can be treated as HP and vice-versa in these contexts.

First of all, I agree with Alrik's last point completely.

Ok.
What do you feel that his last point was?

The quote above from KC makes me feel like we've been arguing over nothing. If we can reasonably use some rules to create other rules, then I think everything I've said is reasonable.

It is not reasonable to drop a 400+ MDC creature with a 1d6-2d6 MD attack.

If I combine the above statement with Blue Lion's earlier statement about death blows, then all of a sudden we have death blows against MDC monsters.

RUE already allows for Death Blows against MDC creatures, providing the attacking character a) knows how to perform a Death Blow), and b) the attacking creature is another Mega-Damage being.

I'm not sure I would even take it that far. If it's reasonable to wound/kill an SDC creature certain ways, then, only after taking into account the magical/supernatural nature of other beings, it's reasonable to allow some of them to be killed in certain ways, given reasonable choices/strategies, in specific situations.

That is loosely worded enough that I can agree with it. So that's something.

I think death blow, for instance, is something very specific, and not something that any human can use against another.

Agreed.

I also think it's reasonable to allow one human to kill another in a very specific instance, without depleting all SDC (for instance, the target is strapped down unable to move, and the character, or NPC, shoots them point blank through the eye). Is that taking things too far? Is that more against the RAW than allowing SDC rules to be modified for MDC beings?

It makes sense for SDC beings.
As I pointed out, the nature of MDC beings is not the same. An SDC being would be killed by smothering a grenade with its body, but an MDC being would not be.
Being Mega-Damage means that you work differently from normal flesh-and-blood beings.

I agree that yes, there are likely some situations where it is reasonable for a GM to say, "you technically have some MDC left, but you're dead anyway, BUT such situations would be where there was (as CB1 put it) "massive" damage inflicted.
But the damage inflicted would have to be well over 50% of the total HP for the vital (i.e., not just an arm or leg or toe) body part being hit.
If a MDC being gets shot in the head for 10 MDC, but it has 50 MDC in its the head, that's not massive damage. That's just a wound.
If a MDC being gets shot in the head for 25 MDC, and it has 50 MDC in its head, that's still not massive damage in my book, although it's significant.
45 MD...? I can see that, in some situations, if the GM invokes the optional CB1 rules.

If the answer to the above is "no?" then I agree to disagree. I just play the game differently. But to the extent, if any, that such choices should be made while playing the game, then I think one shot kills are viable, at least in some circumstances.

Certainly!
Provided that those circumstances are that enough damage is inflicted to justify the kill--either more MD than the target has MDC, or so very close to it that the GM invokes the optional rules from CB1.

OR, as I pointed out, a situation where it's not an insta-kill, but the kill IS technically inflicted by one-shot.
For example a dinosaur with 50 MDC to it's head, which is hit for a single 45 MD that leaves a wound from which the dinosaur can bleed out. We know that dinos CAN bleed out, because Yoho mentions it (IIRC). The most reasonable interpretation that I can see of how quickly that can happen is to apply the HP-bleeding rules to MDC, so the creature would drop in 5 minutes without any further damage being necessary.

It's not that one-shot kills are impossible. Heck, if you inflict more damage than the target has MDC, that's a one-shot kill--we ALL agree on that one.
The only question is when it's appropriate.
And according to the books, it's (optionally) appropriate against MDC creatures when "massive" damage is inflicted.
1d6 MD could be potentially "massive" to a target that only had 7 MDC.
But 1d6 MD would not be "massive" to a target that has hundreds of MDC.

With Alrik, he's changed the rules so that a 1d6 MD attack could technically inflict a lot more damage via bonuses, but even including a mortal's SDC PS damage bonus as a MD bonus with a vibro-knife attack, I still don't think that it qualifies as anything close to "massive.
He's free to play however he likes, of course... but I'm free to have my opinion of how he plays (as he is free to have his opinions of how I play), and I don't see any advantage to leveling the playing field this way instead of leveling the playing field by choosing targets that are more within the PCs' official power level, except perhaps it saves some effort on the part of the GM.

My rule is to stick to the rules unless departure is necessary, and in this case I just don't see it as being necessary.

[Tor]

Is it possible for a person with a knife to kill an average human being with one well placed stab, and, if so, can this be expressed in the game where the knife does 1D6 SDC, and the average human has many more times that SDC and Hit points?

Considering that blood loss rules will result in a single stab killing pretty much anyone unless they can bind the injury, I don't see a problem.

As for instant knife death, I think that's covered via using techniques like death blow in conjunction with a weapon.

If you want shorter combats, use Morale rules.

That and economic rules too. Like the high cost of MDC repair making anyone with modern armor hesitant to engage in combat that puts them at risk. They would have to weigh the importance of the engagement against the credit cost of repairs.

Guys like the Megaversal Legion who can get free repairs forever via their labcoat weird-head guys, this won't be much of a factor. Or with Dweomer where you have legions of High Magi who know how to Mend the Broken your stuff. Or if people have a force field, or can put up some kind of magic/psionic protect. Or for bio-regenerating supernatural beings.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you want shorter combats, use Morale rules.

That and economic rules too. Like the high cost of MDC repair making anyone with modern armor hesitant to engage in combat that puts them at risk. They would have to weigh the importance of the engagement against the credit cost of repairs.

Indeed.
Losing only 10 MDC off your 80 MDC armor might seem like an easy victory, but 7 more fights like that and you're dead.
And either way, you have to pay for repairs, which means if the profit isn't high enough for you to afford repairs the it's not worth it to even start a fight.

[Tor]

Be wearing Plastic Man armor that costs 630 creds per MDC repaired. Fail to sneak up on opponent

Enemy with L-20 fires back at you with a pulse, average of 21 damage, costing you 13,230 creds.

He doesn't die from your first attack, and hits you with a second pulse, total cost to you now 26,460. More than the L-20 will net you. But hey, you can still make 5k off the cost of an e-clip, right? Still in the black.

Your second attack doesn't kill him, he hits you with a third pulse.

Now you in the red.

[Alrik Vas]

Still looking for the MDC breakdown on location.

If the head is say, 30% and your average beastie has 200 MDC, I think anything over 50 would qualify.

Not easy, even with my rules in damage. Then again, you aren't vaporizing the head in my scenario. You're applying direct damage to a weak spot. So we'll look at it again.

1d6+6 (weapon specialization, "fencing" that applies to any melee weapon) +10 PS bonus. 1d6+16, x2 surprise, +1 multiplier for vital called shot. So 1d6+16x3 before critical possibility. That's minimum 49, probably around 51.

Normally around 9 under normal rules.

Pretty big difference, and your average person even with these house rules isn't going to make the damage anyway, they won't have enough strength and technique.

Its possible, just uncommon. Though much more common than in the RAW, obviously as PC's tend to have the necessary skills.

[Alrik Vas]

Be wearing Plastic Man armor that costs 630 creds per MDC repaired. Fail to sneak up on opponent

Enemy with L-20 fires back at you with a pulse, average of 21 damage, costing you 13,230 creds.

He doesn't die from your first attack, and hits you with a second pulse, total cost to you now 26,460. More than the L-20 will net you. But hey, you can still make 5k off the cost of an e-clip, right? Still in the black.

Your second attack doesn't kill him, he hits you with a third pulse.

Now you in the red.

Or you body flip in your first action. Disarm on your next as he doesn't get a go in between and now you've got the knife and the rifle.

[Killer Cyborg]

Still looking for the MDC breakdown on location.

There isn't one, that I know of.
But if it's anything like it is for body armor, then a creature with 400 MDC to the main body, could have 300 MDC in its head.

The way the rules work make that unimportant, though, in that if a creature doesn't have a MDC by location breakdown, then the damage is applied to the main pool at x2-x3 damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

Be wearing Plastic Man armor that costs 630 creds per MDC repaired. Fail to sneak up on opponent

Enemy with L-20 fires back at you with a pulse, average of 21 damage, costing you 13,230 creds.

He doesn't die from your first attack, and hits you with a second pulse, total cost to you now 26,460. More than the L-20 will net you. But hey, you can still make 5k off the cost of an e-clip, right? Still in the black.

Your second attack doesn't kill him, he hits you with a third pulse.

Now you in the red.

Or you body flip in your first action. Disarm on your next as he doesn't get a go in between and now you've got the knife and the rifle.

Hard to body flip somebody when you've just failed to sneak up on them, and they've shot you.
Unless you were trying to sneak up on them from essentially melee range in the first place, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, getting into specifics. If you're in melee range, you can. Lasers don't seem to have an inherent knockdown or push back.

Also, Tor's post seems to suggest the knife wielding character won initiative, even though they failed to get free surprise attack.

[eliakon]

Well, getting into specifics. If you're in melee range, you can. Lasers don't seem to have an inherent knockdown or push back.

Also, Tor's post seems to suggest the knife wielding character won initiative, even though they failed to get free surprise attack.

well the first issue is that Body Flip/Throw uses the attackers momentum to flip them....if they are standing there shooting you then you cant really use it on them.....not to mention that depending on how you read the rules H2H Basic and Expert might need to wait till level 8 to get to use the maneuver.

The second is that again Body Flip/Throw may be really easy to parry (It may or may not get the persons full strike bonus in H2H)

The third is the question of if you can do a Body Flip/Throw if you have a weapon in your hand (and I would not want to be totally unarmed.....but hey, if you want to bring your kung-fu to a laser fight go ahead)

[Alrik Vas]

well the first issue is that Body Flip/Throw uses the attackers momentum to flip them....if they are standing there shooting you then you cant really use it on them.....not to mention that depending on how you read the rules H2H Basic and Expert might need to wait till level 8 to get to use the maneuver.

Yeah, the maneuvers are listed at the beginning of the forms, then as you read it looks like you don't get them until later. It's kind of a mess. I tend to take it as you can do it, you're just getting PP bonuses until the form grants specific modifiers to the maneuver.

As to it being something that uses an enemy's momentum against them, if that were a requirement for throwing someone on the ground, fighting would be pretty bizarre. Though I suppose you could think of it as the initial grab to throw is pulling them off balance, tiling their momentum in your favor. /shrug

That's not something I concern myself with all the time. I tend to just think of it as a damaging knockdown with smaller bonuses that can be parried, as dedicated sweeps generally have to be dodged.

The second is that again Body Flip/Throw may be really easy to parry (It may or may not get the persons full strike bonus in H2H)

As stated above, I agree with this. It could indeed be easily parried (as defensive modifiers tend to outstrip strike bonuses of all kinds). However, it's the smarter move considering your knife isn't going to temporarily incapacitate them either.

The third is the question of if you can do a Body Flip/Throw if you have a weapon in your hand (and I would not want to be totally unarmed.....but hey, if you want to bring your kung-fu to a laser fight go ahead)

First, as a black belt in kempo kung fu, and knowing quite a few folks who went through line training in the army and marines, it isn't that hard to take someone down with one arm, because you can still use the rest of your body to make it happen. Foot positioning is key to takedowns.

Also, if you're already closed in at melee range, the person with the rifle would be at a disadvantage unless they've got some intense training using their rifle as a bludgeon and defensive weapon in close. Most don't. A rifle just gets in the way and gives an attacker something else to grab.

That's my take based off experience, anyway. it isn't easy, but nothing about fighting really is.

[SpiritInterface]

Palladium doesn't have any one shot kills, even Death Blow isn't a one shot kill. Kevin has purposely excluded instant death from the game, except when using MD weapons on SDC targets. You get the same effect by doing so much damage in a single shot as to overwhelm the damage capacity of the target. But that's just massive power as opposed to skill.

There is no way for the skilled sniper to take the one killing shot, or the skilled soldier/assassin to perform the one killing thrust of a blade.

[Alrik Vas]

That is more or less true, and more or less the problem. At least from my point of view.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium doesn't have any one shot kills, even Death Blow isn't a one shot kill. Kevin has purposely excluded instant death from the game, except when using MD weapons on SDC targets. You get the same effect by doing so much damage in a single shot as to overwhelm the damage capacity of the target. But that's just massive power as opposed to skill.

There is no way for the skilled sniper to take the one killing shot, or the skilled soldier/assassin to perform the one killing thrust of a blade.

Sure there is; make sure that you're attacking with a weapon that's up to the job.
No matter how skilled a person is, they're not going to one-shot-kill an elephant with an icepick.

Hell, I'd say that a good deal of skill is knowing to pick the right weapon against the right target.

[ShadowLogan]

Palladium doesn't have any one shot kills, even Death Blow isn't a one shot kill. Kevin has purposely excluded instant death from the game, except when using MD weapons on SDC targets. You get the same effect by doing so much damage in a single shot as to overwhelm the damage capacity of the target. But that's just massive power as opposed to skill.

There is no way for the skilled sniper to take the one killing shot, or the skilled soldier/assassin to perform the one killing thrust of a blade.

I can think of several places where it is possible in the 1st Edition Robotech, and a smaller list in 2E. In 1E Robotech you could kill a Zentreadi Regult Battlepod with 1 decent roll on a GU-11 full burst or with 1 high grade SRM (or better). Invid Sensor Eyes are one shot kill possible, with the right weapon.

IIRC I've seen rules that can allow it in other places to, but can't think of off hand where they where (might have been for SDC side of things, but MDC doesn't protect SDC/HP completely from MD attacks).

[Alrik Vas]

If there's one thing that's always bothered me about the general abstraction of "health" in RPG's it's the idea of "Oh, they're shooting at me? With a Capper using beebee rounds? Yeah, not gonna dodge that. Most it can do is 6 and I've got 400 health."

If health doesn't mean anything until you've taken "massive" damage, I'd rather all damage be massive.

[Killer Cyborg]

If there's one thing that's always bothered me about the general abstraction of "health" in RPG's it's the idea of "Oh, they're shooting at me? With a Capper using beebee rounds? Yeah, not gonna dodge that. Most it can do is 6 and I've got 400 health."

Not sure what a capper is, but 6 damage to somebody with 400 isn't much.
Mike Tyson doesn't have to dodge a punch from a toddler.

If health doesn't mean anything until you've taken "massive" damage, I'd rather all damage be massive.

Headline:
Mike Tyson Killed By Toddler

[Alrik Vas]

Sorry, disagree entirely with the comparison. Maybe you could go with Mike Tyson killed by badger with unnaturally sharp teeth and claws.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry, disagree entirely with the comparison. Maybe you could go with Mike Tyson killed by badger with unnaturally sharp teeth and claws.

Nah. 1d6 to 400 is more toddler & Tyson difference.
Or we could go back to the ice pick and the elephant.

That's what the damage system represents: how tough things/creatures are specifically in relation to the damage that's dealt.
If a brick wall has 400 SDC, and you're really skillful with your fists, you're not going to be able to punch it down in any meaningful time no matter how skilled you are.
If you have a gun that inflicts 1d6-2d6 damage, and you're shooting at that brick wall, you're not going to be able to shoot that wall down in any meaningful time, no matter how skilled you are.
If you're up against a demon/monster that's literally as tough as a brick wall, and you have your skilled fists or your 2d6 pistol, then guess what?
You can get x2-x3 damage by aiming for vitals, so you can kill it faster... but you're still essentially fighting a brick wall with the wrong weapons.
That's what the 400 health MEANS; it's telling you that whatever has that much health is physically tough enough to withstand one hell of a lot of damage.

[Tor]

Or you body flip in your first action. Disarm on your next as he doesn't get a go in between and now you've got the knife and the rifle.

Getting close enough to do that would probably require more prowl rolls than getting in range to shoot them with a gun.

Bonus to your tactic is being able to salvage the armor though.

*kind of thinks there should be a chance for people to automatically drop weapons when tackled or body flipped as they try to cushion the fall or get shocked by the impact*

Tor's post seems to suggest the knife wielding character won initiative, even though they failed to get free surprise attack.

My post discussed shooting a guy who also had a gun, where's this knife stuff coming from? I think you added that.

the first issue is that Body Flip/Throw uses the attackers momentum to flip them....if they are standing there shooting you then you cant really use it on them

The momentum of their moving body can be initiated by you

The second is that again Body Flip/Throw may be really easy to parry (It may or may not get the persons full strike bonus in H2H)

I think it gets the strike bonus when used as an attack but not when it's used as an automatic defense (Aikido, classic CWC commando, etc)

I figure Alrik meant to imply it was a surprise attack so it couldn't be defended against.

In that case I'd probably want to go for an automatic knockout from behind, some martial arts give that at low levels. If you had an accomplice an Entangle or Hold could also work while they disarmed from the front.

[slade the sniper]

Here is a little something to make combat scary, but probably not faster.

Step one: make the to hit roll.
Step two: if it hits, make the damage roll normally.
Step three: damage done divided by total MDC/SDC of what you just shot...so you get a percentage. So you just shot the 400 MDC brodkil with 17 MD = 0.0425 or 4%. Now roll a d100 to see if you get an instant kill by getting a 4 or less. If you don't get an instant kill, you just take the 17 MD off the brodkil, so now it has 383 MD.

It does add an extra roll, but the deadliness of the combat should make combat less likely...and will lead to faster combats, because once the percentages reach ~50% death comes much faster.

-STS

[ShadowLogan]

That's what the damage system represents: how tough things/creatures are specifically in relation to the damage that's dealt.

Not entirely. The system does fudge the numbers to alter the survivability equation in both terms of damage output/soak. So it is not strictly speaking representing how tough an item/creature actually is alone, but also includes the equivalent of "plot shields". Without this "fudging" or "plot shielding" going on we wouldn't see some of the scaling issues that the system seems to present (like 'giant robots with less MDC per kg than power armor OR body armor, and the tiny farie has even more or vehicles with big honking weapons that have crappy performance).

[Killer Cyborg]

That's what the damage system represents: how tough things/creatures are specifically in relation to the damage that's dealt.

Not entirely. The system does fudge the numbers to alter the survivability equation in both terms of damage output/soak. So it is not strictly speaking representing how tough an item/creature actually is alone, but also includes the equivalent of "plot shields". Without this "fudging" or "plot shielding" going on we wouldn't see some of the scaling issues that the system seems to present (like 'giant robots with less MDC per kg than power armor OR body armor, and the tiny farie has even more or vehicles with big honking weapons that have crappy performance).

I don't know that we have the same understanding of the term "plot shielding."

[Blue_Lion]

I thought plot shielding was when you can not kill something simply because the plot says so.

The DC system does not include plot shielding but is a way to track the survivability of something. The DC system actually is tracked separately than plot/story as it is a numerical formula that does not change with the plot.

[Alrik Vas]

Just think there's a severe difference (more than x2 damage vs the total) between repeated strikes against the toughest part of something and a more precise attack vs a softer location.

I also think the damage of a lot of weapons is underestimated and the toughness of many target's of flesh is overestimated.

I know the rules, even if I didn't before they've been explained very well in this thread. This is about changing them to suit style of gaming, or leaving them be.

Think we've all made our points, not much is going to come from continuing as we've started in circles a few times already.

[Killer Cyborg]

When comparing fictional weapons against fictional creatures, I don't think that the creator of the fiction coul logically be said to be either overestimating or underestimating.

[slade the sniper]

Just think there's a severe difference (more than x2 damage vs the total) between repeated strikes against the toughest part of something and a more precise attack vs a softer location.

I also think the damage of a lot of weapons is underestimated and the toughness of many target's of flesh is overestimated.

I know the rules, even if I didn't before they've been explained very well in this thread. This is about changing them to suit style of gaming, or leaving them be.

Think we've all made our points, not much is going to come from continuing as we've started in circles a few times already.

I agree fully with the above statements and opinions.

-STS

[Alrik Vas]

When comparing fictional weapons against fictional creatures, I don't think that the creator of the fiction coul logically be said to be either overestimating or underestimating.

Sure, those are my thoughts, my opinion formed from experience. Its the author's creation, but the consumer can change things if they'd like parts of it to be different.

I think you've made a lot of good points about the rules, KC, I've got some things to think about and that's never bad.

[Killer Cyborg]

When comparing fictional weapons against fictional creatures, I don't think that the creator of the fiction coul logically be said to be either overestimating or underestimating.

Sure, those are my thoughts, my opinion formed from experience. Its the author's creation, but the consumer can change things if they'd like parts of it to be different.

I think you've made a lot of good points about the rules, KC, I've got some things to think about and that's never bad.

[Tor]

When comparing fictional weapons against fictional creatures, I don't think that the creator of the fiction coul logically be said to be either overestimating or underestimating.

Except in cases of calculating the wrong averages of dice rolls

[Jorick]

I was thinking that we're focusing a lot on Brodkil and Dinosaurs. I don't have a problem with a one shot kill on these things, perhaps partly because I don't think of them as necessary arch-villains. I like the idea of a very skilled shooter being able to drop something that is in most cases hard to drop in a short time. I think that possibility creates some of the excitement that comes with playing OCCs of a certain type, where just a few points to strike can make the difference between a great gunman and a not-so-great one.

The problem comes from the possible abuse. If a player can one-shot something with 400 MDC then what's the challenge. We've raised the argument that the possibility of the player being one shot adds balance.

However, similar to KCs point that the enemies can simply be made weaker (in order to speed combat, or create heroic cinematic scenes) so too can enemies be more difficult to kill. I don't think MDC is the determinant factor. Not everything can be reasonably one shot. Brodkil and Dinosaurs, as it seems to me, obviously, are creatures that reasonably have vulnerabilities that are similar to human vulnerabilities, despite large amounts of MDC. But robots aren't, and neither are things like Murder Wraiths, or anything that regenerates.

For instance, I don't think I can come up with a reasonable way to one shot a Murder Wraith (a personal fave) short of doing a lot (the full requisite amount) of damage with the right weapon. The supernatural nature of many beings in Rifts is creates ample opportunity for limiting the players' ambitions. The difficulty is not based on pure DC, but the nature and ability of the opponent.

In general, I think many of the monsters, like Brodkil, are horrific only to the the "average" denizen of Rifts Earth, or in large numbers. I think heroes/the well trained adventurers should be able to overcome many obstacles in rare form. But there are plenty more obstacles out there that would give even the hardiest gunfighter pause. Those beings don't have to be measured, or scaled, simply along DC lines. Meet a vampire unprepared, and you'll never do enough damage. Face a (experienced) dragon hatchling head on without magical countermeasures, or without knowing what you're up against and what to make plans for, and you'll likely be outplayed before you can get a shot off. Entities, fairies, Demons, Coalition robots, and countless other possible opponents are so much more than their MDC (even when they have comparatively very little of it).

I see no real negative to allowing one shots in reasonable situations. I think it adds an element of verisimilitude, and increases the intensity in other situations. You can't one shot a murder wraith, but it can definitely one shot you. Be prepared, do your research, make good plans, hire help if you have to, or die.

[Killer Cyborg]

In general, I think many of the monsters, like Brodkil, are horrific only to the the "average" denizen of Rifts Earth, or in large numbers.

Try fighting one by the official RUE rules, using a CS Grunt or equivalent.

[Q99]

When comparing fictional weapons against fictional creatures, I don't think that the creator of the fiction coul logically be said to be either overestimating or underestimating.

Agreed.

Try fighting one by the official RUE rules, using a CS Grunt or equivalent.

Exactly. Which is part of why I don't like 'empty the clip' quick kills, it reduces the threat of high-MDC monsters that are clearly supposed to be quite dangerous.

[Alrik Vas]

I allow emptying the magazine, long bursts and all that...but the damages aren't x10 or anything. Maybe they would be if you were at extreme close range, or maybe i'd just say multiply 1 shot by the number of rounds left in the mag. /shrug

In either case, I agree about a lot of mechanized targets, as well as things without any kind of reasonable physiology to take advantage of. Of course, you could argue that if you know the internal weak points and have a specialized weapon, it could disable something like a 'bot or whatever, but that's up to the particulars of the situation.

[slade the sniper]

You could use lore skills or tech skills to know about those weak points. It would make them useful in combat so the rogue scholar and operator become combat multipliers instead of people you have to protect in combat.

-STS

[eliakon]

I guess one of the problems I have with the '1HK' and 'fast combat' things is that it changes the feel of the setting. If I can routinely wipe out groups of gargoyles and broadkil with no sweat by using massive damage mods for my weapons it sort of cheapens the idea that the NGR is just barely holding on with their massive armies.....if it was that easy why doesn't anyone but the PCs do it? ......It ends up being like in a video game where the army will be getting destroyed by a force that is annihilating a city....and here comes a group of PCs that wipe out all the monsters for them......
Most games doing this are not that bad....but the thought to me is this "why complain that super tough monsters are super tough? Why not use easy monsters for easy fights, hard monsters for hard fights, and tough monsters for tough fights."
Sure Broadkil are hard to kill, take a long time to die and are a general pain to fight.......
....but that is sort of their job. They were never intended to be 'fluff' monsters, they were intended to be something that a couple of could scare guys in power armor......don't blame them for doing their job. If you need something easier try a nice Troll, or a mining cyborg, or a demon goblin, or......

[Jorick]

I guess one of the problems I have with the '1HK' and 'fast combat' things is that it changes the feel of the setting. If I can routinely wipe out groups of gargoyles and broadkil with no sweat by using massive damage mods for my weapons it sort of cheapens the idea that the NGR is just barely holding on with their massive armies.....if it was that easy why doesn't anyone but the PCs do it? ......It ends up being like in a video game where the army will be getting destroyed by a force that is annihilating a city....and here comes a group of PCs that wipe out all the monsters for them......
Most games doing this are not that bad....but the thought to me is this "why complain that super tough monsters are super tough? Why not use easy monsters for easy fights, hard monsters for hard fights, and tough monsters for tough fights."
Sure Broadkil are hard to kill, take a long time to die and are a general pain to fight.......
....but that is sort of their job. They were never intended to be 'fluff' monsters, they were intended to be something that a couple of could scare guys in power armor......don't blame them for doing their job. If you need something easier try a nice Troll, or a mining cyborg, or a demon goblin, or......

Well, there's lots of gargoyles and Brodkil. Armies of them. Hard to carefully one shot them all. The NGR does have sniper rifles that shoot them out of the sky (and do a lot of MDC). Hard to shoot them all like that. And the humans are vulnerable to the Gargoyles attacks as well. In real life, armies are always "just barely holding on" and it's in large part because people can get one shot pretty easily.

I don't think I ever imagined or would play just everyone getting one shot all over. If it's SDC flesh against MDC then yes. If it's shooting weak spots, then the shooter has to be pretty good. It doesn't just happen. A Brodkil (with MOM conversion even) can mangle PA to uselessness pretty quick (especially if you play the Brodkil as trying to hit weak spots, which are given stats in PA).

If you play both straight up, attack main body MDC, Brodkil aren't really that hard to kill (assuming you're in a kind of normalish Rifts group) compared to an awful lot of other stuff out there (even stuff in the main book). I suppose I disagree that they're really anything but meatier, more viscous bandits/mercs. They're presented like simvan and wild psi-stalkers (until they get MOM conversion in NGR). Nothing to sneeze at, and you can play them tough, especially in numbers, but a neuron beast, for example, or thornhead, is something else.

[Alrik Vas]

I guess one of the problems I have with the '1HK' and 'fast combat' things is that it changes the feel of the setting. If I can routinely wipe out groups of gargoyles and broadkil with no sweat by using massive damage mods for my weapons it sort of cheapens the idea that the NGR is just barely holding on with their massive armies.....if it was that easy why doesn't anyone but the PCs do it? ......It ends up being like in a video game where the army will be getting destroyed by a force that is annihilating a city....and here comes a group of PCs that wipe out all the monsters for them......
Most games doing this are not that bad....but the thought to me is this "why complain that super tough monsters are super tough? Why not use easy monsters for easy fights, hard monsters for hard fights, and tough monsters for tough fights."
Sure Broadkil are hard to kill, take a long time to die and are a general pain to fight.......
....but that is sort of their job. They were never intended to be 'fluff' monsters, they were intended to be something that a couple of could scare guys in power armor......don't blame them for doing their job. If you need something easier try a nice Troll, or a mining cyborg, or a demon goblin, or......

I'd like to point out that there's nothing easy about the method I shared. Called shots cost you and don't always work. You need to deal 10% damage or 50, whichever is more, the called shot is -6 and the target gets a saving throw that is modified by their PE. If any of these factors don't go in your favor, it's a no go. Plus if the target is wearing armor, you can't even make the attempt until that's been destroyed.

It's not exactly routine.

[Blue_Lion]

I guess one of the problems I have with the '1HK' and 'fast combat' things is that it changes the feel of the setting. If I can routinely wipe out groups of gargoyles and broadkil with no sweat by using massive damage mods for my weapons it sort of cheapens the idea that the NGR is just barely holding on with their massive armies.....if it was that easy why doesn't anyone but the PCs do it? ......It ends up being like in a video game where the army will be getting destroyed by a force that is annihilating a city....and here comes a group of PCs that wipe out all the monsters for them......
Most games doing this are not that bad....but the thought to me is this "why complain that super tough monsters are super tough? Why not use easy monsters for easy fights, hard monsters for hard fights, and tough monsters for tough fights."
Sure Broadkil are hard to kill, take a long time to die and are a general pain to fight.......
....but that is sort of their job. They were never intended to be 'fluff' monsters, they were intended to be something that a couple of could scare guys in power armor......don't blame them for doing their job. If you need something easier try a nice Troll, or a mining cyborg, or a demon goblin, or......

I'd like to point out that there's nothing easy about the method I shared. Called shots cost you and don't always work. You need to deal 10% damage or 50, whichever is more, the called shot is -6 and the target gets a saving throw that is modified by their PE. If any of these factors don't go in your favor, it's a no go. Plus if the target is wearing armor, you can't even make the attempt until that's been destroyed.

It's not exactly routine.

10% is allot lower than the damage requirement for the optional rule in conversion book 1.

[Alrik Vas]

If it isn't clear that I'm using different rules by now, I'm not sure how to carry on...

But I assume by your comment that you think it's too low?

I don't, because you need to do 50 for anything under 500 MDC, and more for anything over. Most enemies with around 1000, which you'd only need to do 100 for, have ridiculous PE bonuses, which make them highly resilient to the tactic. As a side note, anything immune to pain, by class or other effect, is immune to this kind of kill effect, as that's the save they're attempting.

[eliakon]

*blinks* Wait....so juicers are immune? *fears Alriks juicers suddenly*

[Killer Cyborg]

*blinks* Wait....so juicers are immune? *fears Alriks juicers suddenly*

Crazies too, iirc.
And psychics with the right power.

[Alrik Vas]

Aside the most extreme examples (mega/ultra/dragon), no juicer or crazy would survive 50md unarmored anyway.

[Noon]

Alrik, you don't seem to realise that the odds eventually come. If there's a one in two hundred chance of being one shot killed, after about 200 attacks, that character is dead.

If you were talking about one shot being made unconcious and slowly dying, I'd get you.

But a one shot kill is a character who will just eventually die (unless your campaign ends before the odds of his death come up - and even then he might still die early)

Actually, I do very much realize it. And even more so, if I were advocating for any hit being a kill, the odds are better than 1:200, even better than 1:20.

That's why I wouldn't play with all hits kill. My post calls the abstraction of health in RPGs out, I think there is a better, more intense and more exciting way to do it. I think a one hit kill should be more possible, but rarely automatic.

It takes skill and the right tools. Odds are that planning and tactical awareness make it happen more reliably than just casting the die and hoping for luck. What I find bothersome is the hero padding a lot of games do, but I don't think it should be completely unforgiving either. It is still a game and they're supposed to be fun. Though I like tense, hair raising challenges.

In terms of play you'd actually need it the other way around, as I see it. The players would use planning and tactical awareness to remove opponents capacity to lucky one shot kill.

Because typically it's not super interesting to hear the GM say 'oh yeah, the enemy were super clever - I made up their plan then judged their plan as clever as well, and so they got the capacity to one shot kill you...and by chance did!'.

It might work out if the players have moves they can make to turn off the enemies one shot kill capacities.

[Alrik Vas]

What GM worth the dice they roll goes "hrr hrr" all over their players like that?

However, I see the point of you saying players should plan to keep from dying. Totally with you on that.

Lastly, as far as things to remove getting 1 shot, body armor, force fields, magic, psionics, dodging, taking cover. Most of that works pretty well when avoiding death.

[eliakon]

But if the PCs are immune to this then why do the NPCs have this vulnerability?
Only NPCs are weak to clever plans?

[Alrik Vas]

Of course not. NPC's with access to...dodging...are just as protected. If they wear armor, or use magical/psionic/tech force fields, even more so. If they can immunize themselves to pain, they are utterly unaffected.

In order for this to work you have to hit a fleshy target. Robots, mecha, golems, zombies (unless the book says they die from headshots) are all immune. They don't have physiology to take advantage of.

[eliakon]

I was responding to the
Because typically it's not super interesting to hear the GM say 'oh yeah, the enemy were super clever - I made up their plan then judged their plan as clever as well, and so they got the capacity to one shot kill you...and by chance did!'.
bit.

[Alrik Vas]

Ah, there was no quote and I thought it was directed at me. Heh. I was confused you'd ask that, glad it was a misunderstanding on my part.

[Killer Cyborg]

What GM worth the dice they roll goes "hrr hrr" all over their players like that?

However, I see the point of you saying players should plan to keep from dying. Totally with you on that.

Lastly, as far as things to remove getting 1 shot, body armor, force fields, magic, psionics, dodging, taking cover. Most of that works pretty well when avoiding death.

That gets back to the setting.
If an unarmored brodkil could get one-shotted, then brodkil as a rule would wear armor when expecting trouble, just like anybody else.