Which mecha is the true successor to the VF-1: Alpha or Beta

[Jefffar]

A little firepower at the proper place and time always beats a lot of firepower that can't get to where it can be of use.

A booster pack carrying Logan would have incredible speed and agility, perhaps beating out all of the boosted or unboosted veritech fighter in that regard. It could avoid fire and set up shots like nobody's business. Yes it isn't going to wreck capital ships (unless the booster pods had some sort of fitting permitting an anti-ship weapon to be carried), but it will be able to intercept and destroy most mecha, aircraft and aerospace fighters nicely.

Against the (generally) light and agile mecha of the Zentraedi, it'd be a real winner.

[ShadowLogan]

Equal its speed and maneuverability, perhaps... but the Logan's armament is so light that it feels like kind of a waste unless those FAST packs add substantial additional armament.

In terms of GUNS the Logan might actually qualify as hitting harder than the AGAC when we look at the entire package:
-Logan Nose Tri-Cannon vs AGAC Nose/Head Laser: Logan Out ranges and out damages
-Logan EU-20 vs AGAC IWS-40. Mixed bag. The EU-20 out ranges the IWS-40 (>2x). IWS-40 though hits harder (75%). Technically they both have access to "effectively unlimited payloads", they just go about it differently. The AGAC can also mount two, but one is standard.

The IWS-40 could be integrated as part of the FAST PACK System if one really wanted to.

That is in 2E, in 1E RT it wasn't even a contest going to the Logan in terms of guns (I actually think they neutred the Logan in several respects moving to 2E).

Now missiles, yes the Logan is deficient in. It can carry 4 SRM (or 2 MRM) vs the 12 cluster missiles the AGAC carries (per Infoepdia, since the 2E RPG does not give an easy number of missiles to work with for the AGAC, and x2 extra hardpoints?), whatever they are supposed to be in the 2E RPG. Since the AGAC's missiles are in bins, those bins could be carried over giving the Logan 12 Cluster Missiles easily and its baseline missiles.

Whether or not there's a flat stretch of hull to bolt something is less important than the practicalities of implementation... the Logan doesn't really have as robust a means of deceleration as the VF-1 or an Alpha-Beta combiner, for instance.

Even assuming it can not (see below): Why can't the FAST PACK system address that issue?

The Logan has two noticeable maneuvering thrusters in the shoulders (1E RPG Jet Lasers, used in "Volunteers" as thrusters), something we don't easily see in any other mecha (other than VTOL ports or rear facing engines) in RT. In Guardian mode there is a thruster on the chest capable of slowing the mecha down ("Southern Cross").

[Seto Kaiba]

A little firepower at the proper place and time always beats a lot of firepower that can't get to where it can be of use.

True, but in this case we're invariably dealing with situations where the quantity of the firepower is AT LEAST as important as quality.

(There is a reason the successful main fighters have missiles out the wazoo. The Logan is basically out of ordinance after its first attack.)

Against the (generally) light and agile mecha of the Zentraedi, it'd be a real winner.

One on one, perhaps... but against a foe that has numbers on its side, the Logan's at a distinct disadvantage even if it gets a slight boost to mobility.

In terms of GUNS the Logan might actually qualify as hitting harder than the AGAC when we look at the entire package:

Now missiles, yes the Logan is deficient in. It can carry 4 SRM (or 2 MRM) vs the 12 cluster missiles the AGAC carries (per Infoepdia, since the 2E RPG does not give an easy number of missiles to work with for the AGAC, and x2 extra hardpoints?), whatever they are supposed to be in the 2E RPG.

Considering the AGACs is supposed to be straight-up superior to the Logan, it feels like the RT2E writers kind of dropped the ball on this one...

I'd assume there's some kind of compatibility issue WRT the missiles and other weapons, otherwise we're back at "Why don't we just stick the Alpha's SRMs into the VF-1's MLOPs and create a super-high-performance fighter that carries 180 missiles?"

Even assuming it can not (see below): Why can't the FAST PACK system address that issue?

The Logan has two noticeable maneuvering thrusters in the shoulders (1E RPG Jet Lasers, used in "Volunteers" as thrusters), something we don't easily see in any other mecha (other than VTOL ports or rear facing engines) in RT. In Guardian mode there is a thruster on the chest capable of slowing the mecha down ("Southern Cross").

Actually, there is a vernier array visible in an analogous placement on the VF-1... but that's beside the point.

The deceleration vernier on the Logan is suited for gradual deceleration from slow-speed flight in the show, but I doubt it's got the oomph necessary to counter the kind of thrust that you'd get from a booster comparable to the VF-1's FAST pack. That's one of the orders-of-magnitude differences between the VF-1 and its successors, the sheer, redonkulous amount of thrust.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

N/M....my sense of humor sometimes gets the better of me....

[ShadowLogan]

Considering the AGACs is supposed to be straight-up superior to the Logan, it feels like the RT2E writers kind
of dropped the ball on this one...

"Supposedly", just look at Marie Crystal's performance in a Logan in "Volunteers" vs any of her AGAC flights in space. Per the animation both Logan guns are just as effective at smashing Blue Bioroids as the GU-11 is against Regults in terms of one-burst/blast-hit kills. The game stats don't really reflect that (actually they never reflected that).

The most logical explanation for the AGAC supplanting the Logan has nothing to do with how poorly the the Logan "supposedly" did, it was that the Logan was already on the way out and the AGAC was on the way-in.

I'd assume there's some kind of compatibility issue WRT the missiles and other weapons, otherwise we're back at "Why don't we just stick the Alpha's SRMs into the VF-1's MLOPs and create a super-high-performance fighter that carries 180 missiles?"

I don't think there would be some kind of compatibility issue, or at least if there is it doesn't have to stand. Aircraft do receive updates in their life spans to be able to use new systems and technology (including weapons), this would be no different.

For a compatibility issue to really stick, you need an actual reason like the weapon's size is to big, or heavy. Heaviness might be a factor for the Logan, but if the FAST PACKs actually are doing their job and bringing more capability to the mecha, it shouldn't be a problem.

The deceleration vernier on the Logan is suited for gradual deceleration from slow-speed flight in the show,
but I doubt it's got the oomph necessary to counter the kind of thrust that you'd get from a booster comparable to the VF-1's FAST pack. That's one of the orders-of-magnitude differences between the VF-1 and its successors, the sheer, redonkulous amount of thrust.

We could go back and forth on the apparent "effectiveness" of the thrusters in question, but I think even in a negative
situation it still begs the question I asked earlier: if it is an issue, why can't the FAST PACKS also be used to address the
issue?

It can't because, duh!, its the Logan and EVERYONE knows it sucks. Why do you have to complicate this simple narrative with things like "facts"? Jeez, get with the program SL!

I thought the program was people are confusing the "Logan" with the "Sylphid" on screen. After all the "Sylphid" does nothing but blowup and fire blanks and look silly (or ugly), which is basically the inaccurate claim for the Logan.

[Seto Kaiba]

"Supposedly", just look at Marie Crystal's performance in a Logan in "Volunteers" vs any of her AGAC flights in space. Per the animation both Logan guns are just as effective at smashing Blue Bioroids as the GU-11 is against Regults in terms of one-burst/blast-hit kills.

She does a pretty stand-up job against the Bioroids in the AGACs... but by the latter half of the series the "Robotech Masters" are improving, and she's increasingly out of focus.

I don't think there would be some kind of compatibility issue, or at least if there is it doesn't have to stand. Aircraft do receive updates in their life spans to be able to use new systems and technology (including weapons), this would be no different.

For a compatibility issue to really stick, you need an actual reason like the weapon's size is to big, or heavy. Heaviness might be a factor for the Logan, but if the FAST PACKs actually are doing their job and bringing more capability to the mecha, it shouldn't be a problem.

There's that, yeah... with the Logan's minimal wing surface and less than stellar aerodynamics, I'm still not convinced it'd actually be able to get airborne, let alone carry ordinance.

Missiles aren't exactly plug-and-play, though, so there is the distinct possibility that the UEDF/ASC upgraded its missile tech in the period between the Logan and the AGACs and didn't bother to upgrade the Logan or couldn't due to some limiting factor.

We could go back and forth on the apparent "effectiveness" of the thrusters in question, but I think even in a negative
situation it still begs the question I asked earlier: if it is an issue, why can't the FAST PACKS also be used to address the
issue?

The Logan's transformation doesn't exactly afford it the opportunity to point its engines in the direction opposite travel, and having a great big rocket nozzle on the front of the pack would make placing the sensors for weapons systems extremely difficult.

[ShadowLogan]

She does a pretty stand-up job against the Bioroids in the AGACs... but by the latter half of the series the "Robotech Masters" are improving, and she's increasingly out of focus.

While the Masters can be said to be "improving", they can also be said to be "running on empty" more and more as the series progresses, so it might wash. It should also be noted that Dennis Brown makes a statement about the AGAC being a "no match" for the new Biroids (you don't hear that kind of talk from pilots in other VFs).

There's that, yeah... with the Logan's minimal wing surface and less than stellar aerodynamics, I'm still not convinced it'd actually be able to get airborne, let alone carry ordinance.

Missiles aren't exactly plug-and-play, though, so there is the distinct possibility that the UEDF/ASC upgraded its missile tech in the period between the Logan and the AGACs and didn't bother to upgrade the Logan or couldn't due to some limiting factor.

You are right, missiles aren't plug-and-play, they have to go through certification and such. If the Logan didn't get upgraded though, it could mean it is on the way out and the return on investment is not worth it. Which brings me back to my early view that the Logan isn't being replaced because it did "poorly", it's just on its way out (likely due to age).

But you don't need wing surface area to mount ordinance though. According to the Infopedia, the native launchers are on the forearm/wing root (2E RPG calls it fuselage). The Logan's ability to get airborne, even with ordinance could be achieved by raw thrust alone.

Being able to take off is important, but there are avenues that would allow it. The Logan could have something like a JATO rocket allowing it take off in Fighter mode on the ground, the FAST PACKs themselves could provide the extra power to accommodate the extra weight (they are used in "Viva Miryia" for takeoff), etc.

[quote="Seto"]The Logan's transformation doesn't exactly afford it the opportunity to point its engines in the direction opposite travel, and having a great big rocket nozzle on the front of the pack would make placing the sensors for weapons systems extremely difficult.

[quote]
The Logan has to assume a full on Guardian to be able to point engines for breaking, in which case it has the center chest one, two in the shoulders, and two more in the legs. All of which are shown to be able to alter the Logan's vector individually, combined they could be x3 more potent. We do have to consider the possibility that those engines are not shown at full power in those instances due to relatively low speeds they are used at.

That though is only one way to setup the FAST packs. You could put:
-thrust vectoring on the main engines
-dedicated engine in a blister(s) for the main engine dorsal pod
-the breaking thrusters in the forearm
-the breaking thrusters in the leg, would need two smaller ones on each leg setup sort of like the VHT-1's
-on a new location not analogous to the VF-1 (like on the shoulders if the dorsal pods are on the twin engines)
-high thrust capacity maneuvering thrusters so it can execute a 180 turn for breaking
-reconfiguration technology into the dorsal pack so it can re-position itself like VF legs (Alpha/Beta/VF-1) for breaking manovers only on top. We know the FAST PACKs on the VF-1 are re-positionable ("Vivia Miryia"), so the basic premise is sound, we just need to evolve it
-afterburner like capacity into baseline engines via FAST PACKs, this might require the baseline nozzles to be replaced (staying behind even after the rest might be jettison) while running a propellant lines (presumably armored)
-alteration hardware (as part of the FAST PACK Package) onto some of the baseline engines nozzle geometry for increased thrust (this will have to alter the pressure at exit and/or the nozzle exit area)
-new engines up to the task IN the Logan

[Seto Kaiba]

While the Masters can be said to be "improving", they can also be said to be "running on empty" more and more as the series progresses, so it might wash.

Maybe, but they were running on empty when the saga began too...

It should also be noted that Dennis Brown makes a statement about the AGAC being a "no match" for the new Biroids (you don't hear that kind of talk from pilots in other VFs).

Yeah, but then again the Masters had the ASC outmatched pretty heavily the entire course of the war... just because Dennis says the AGACs was outmatched doesn't mean the other craft available weren't.

You are right, missiles aren't plug-and-play, they have to go through certification and such. If the Logan didn't get upgraded though, it could mean it is on the way out and the return on investment is not worth it. Which brings me back to my early view that the Logan isn't being replaced because it did "poorly", it's just on its way out (likely due to age).

Considering the Logan's low wing surface area and lozenge-shaped main body, I'm inclined to attribute the Logan's alleged deficient performance to it being pressed into service in a role it was never designed for. With minimal missile armament but a hefty fixed-forward gun, you have to suspect this was never meant to be anything more than a close air support plane intended to strafe light ground targets.

The same could be said for pretty much the entire Southern Cross Army. It was a force set up to a fight a land war, which found itself in the unenviable position of having to fight a space war instead.

But you don't need wing surface area to mount ordinance though. According to the Infopedia, the native launchers are on the forearm/wing root (2E RPG calls it fuselage). The Logan's ability to get airborne, even with ordinance could be achieved by raw thrust alone.

You need wing surface to compensate for the drag problem imposed by hung weaponry... the Logan's wings are pretty inadequate for an aircraft of its size, and its profile isn't exactly lifting body material either.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, but then again the Masters had the ASC outmatched pretty heavily the entire course of the war... just because Dennis says the AGACs was outmatched doesn't mean the other craft available weren't.

True, but given that Dennis's statement exists for the AGAC and there is a lack of any such a blunt statement elsewhere in connection to a given mecha. I don't recall any statements about the AGAC to be the "superior" design either in dialogue, just "new" so it being "superior" maybe nothing more than an assumption.

Then again the apparent performance issue may not have anything to do with technology for the UEDF/UEEF, but rather training and tactics and such.

Considering the Logan's low wing surface area and lozenge-shaped main body, I'm inclined to attribute the Logan's alleged deficient performance to it being pressed into service in a role it was never designed for. With minimal missile armament but a hefty fixed-forward gun, you have to suspect this was never meant to be anything more than a close air support plane intended to strafe light ground targets.

The Logan's design does support CAS. However elements of its design actually seem geared toward space combat roles of:
-fighter vs fighter based on the VF-1 who on screen scored ~110 cannon kills vs ~20kills with missiles (Super adds ~10kills by missiles, none by cannon) and ~7kills I don't have recorded how (I'm also ignoring melee, damage, and crippling). That is total kills for the 36ep, I can filter out episodes if need be that don't involve space combat.
-it's shape seems ideal for re-entry given other "lifting body designs" with their small physical wings compared to the body that have been studied for missions at re-entry in mind
-it's shape is ideal for high speed/altitude flight where large wings aren't as useful (this though would likely require updating the Logan's airspeed/altitude to be similar to 1E RPG instead of the nerfing for 2E RPG/Infopedia)
-it's size and mass would be attractive to space missions, not to mention the logistics of supporting it's weapons

You need wing surface to compensate for the drag problem imposed by hung weaponry... the Logan's wings are pretty inadequate for an aircraft of its size, and its profile isn't exactly lifting body material either.

That though is if we are talking about atmospheric work, if we are talking about space work the drag problem is non-existent, which is where the FAST PACKS are intended to be deployed. In space is also the only time the Logan uses (implied) external mounted missiles in the show.

As far as atmospheric work goes though, they could overcome the drag problem of the hung weaponry if the Logan can generate more thrust than we are led to believe. Do we know what the actual thrust and drag levels are in this matter?

Granted if we are talking about this in relation to the FAST PACKs and/or modular add-ons, you could include such options as additional wings in the mix, either as actual replacement wings (something the Logan can likely do better than other 85ep VFs) or an over-sized "auxiliary" wing (it doesn't have to be as limited in size as baseline, the result could give it a bi-plane-ish look depending on how the baseline wing is used in this configuration).