Chi-Town destroyed during Siege of Tolkeen?

[Vrykolas2k]

Im telling you it's cause magic users are too simple minded and one track minded...

How are they going to put together some elaborate plan to get a bomb they dont have into a highly organized bastion of human salvation like Chi-Town when they cant think past their next Blood Sacrifice or the nearest Supernatural Intelligence they can find to worship and con to give them just a sliver of it's power...

Look everyone knows that magic caused the Rifts and anyone dumb enough to delve into these dark arts is obviously going to be deranged by it's power. It's not hard to understand why these type of people cant figure out something like this... come on...

Barney

Actually, everyone knows it was technology that brought the Rifts, and the return of magic. Had it not been for nukes...

[Toc Rat]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

That "explanation" has been used for about a zillion years now, but at some point, even that has to go out the window in the "real" world.

Plato the Dragon: Let's go kill the Xiticix!!!

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Why should we do this thing, killing other Sentient Life???

Plato: Because, left to their own devices, the Xiticix pose a Threat to all on the Continent.

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Oh. We see. So why shouldn't we formulate a long-term plan against the CS, if even a M.A.D. Scenario?? Left to their own devices, don't they ALSO pose a Threat to all on the Continent? Doesn't EVERY Argument that apply to the Xiticix, ALSO apply to the Coalition States??

Plato: Well...uh, yeah..... but..... [Insert Writer's Fiat here]

CLAP CLAP CLAP

[Proseksword]

It's a huge chorus of Nega-Psychics that stand around chanting "I see nothing, I hear nothing, there is no magic, there are no dragons" that blocks out all attempts made by other factions from destroying Chi-Town.

[Toc Rat]

Darn it! I forgot I wasn't posting on this thread any more...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

That "explanation" has been used for about a zillion years now, but at some point, even that has to go out the window in the "real" world.

Plato the Dragon: Let's go kill the Xiticix!!!

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Why should we do this thing, killing other Sentient Life???

Plato: Because, left to their own devices, the Xiticix pose a Threat to all on the Continent.

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Oh. We see. So why shouldn't we formulate a long-term plan against the CS, if even a M.A.D. Scenario?? Left to their own devices, don't they ALSO pose a Threat to all on the Continent? Doesn't EVERY Argument that apply to the Xiticix, ALSO apply to the Coalition States??

Plato: Well...uh, yeah..... but..... [Insert Writer's Fiat here]

yup followed by watching new lazlo being used as a speed bump by the coalition war machine headed to lazlo and FOM.

[Killer Cyborg]

Quote="Killer Cyborg"

-Lack of inside information to teleport the bombs to.

That's what non-psychic, non-magic, non-D-Bee scouts are for. A little photo surveylance and a good caster has all he needs to use Teleport: Superior.

Getting ANY spies inside Chi-Town would likely be difficult.

-Lack of effective explosives (Even long range missile don't have a great blast radius)

A) Quantity can make up for quality.
B) There's always that TW WMD I brought up last time this came up... and now that RUE has rules to make such a thing you can't claim there's no way to make one.

But I CAN point out that the players only decide what they want to try to build, not what they actually get.
You can TRY to make your TW WMD, but it's up to the GM to allow or disallow it. I have a feeling that KS would disallow it, as would I.

-Unwillingness to make the CS even MORE ticked off.

If the blast takes out Prosek and his son, the resulting fight for the reigns of power would all but paralyze the CS. Maybe even plunge it into civil war. It's wroth the risk.

IF you could be sure of taking them both out, then I could see it.
Maybe the mages are just still waiting for the right time when all the factors click.

-Unwillingness to risk the teleported nuke ending up off course and destroying innocent lives

FOM terrorists don't care about innocient lives or colateral damage. So long as Coalition citizens and/or soldiers die as a result, they're happy.

A mis-teleported nuke could end up in the middle of Dweomer or some other place with non-CS citizens.

-Unwillingness to risk the nuke going off course and detonating a few feet away from the caster

A few safety precautions can mitigate that danger into nothing more than a procedureial step. For instance a thrity seconed timer would do the trick just fine. No where near enough time for it to be defused on the receiving end, but more than enough for them to jam in a deactivation key should it fail to go.

Plenty of time for it to be defused by a Mind melter or other CS psychic with telemechanic abilities.
(Granted, it would be a large coincidence if the bomb landed right next to one)

[cornholioprime]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

That "explanation" has been used for about a zillion years now, but at some point, even that has to go out the window in the "real" world.

Plato the Dragon: Let's go kill the Xiticix!!!

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Why should we do this thing, killing other Sentient Life???

Plato: Because, left to their own devices, the Xiticix pose a Threat to all on the Continent.

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Oh. We see. So why shouldn't we formulate a long-term plan against the CS, if even a M.A.D. Scenario?? Left to their own devices, don't they ALSO pose a Threat to all on the Continent? Doesn't EVERY Argument that apply to the Xiticix, ALSO apply to the Coalition States??

Plato: Well...uh, yeah..... but..... [Insert Writer's Fiat here]

yup followed by watching new lazlo being used as a speed bump by the coalition war machine headed to lazlo and FOM.

And therein lies your Problem.

One of the problems with Extremists is their ...well......EXTREME Approach to most everything.

THEY are the ones who force their Opponents into a corner.

Don't take my word on it; just look at the real world.

Anti-War Types constantly tell us, "Don't go fight the Terrorists; you'll only antaginize them."

However, being the extremists that they are, ANYTHING that you do except accede 100% to their Demands, will antagonize them. Likewise with the CS.

Which is yet another BIG problem with the Magic-Using nations in General and how they're written in their struggle ith the CS. The CS has had eighty-plus years of showing conclusively that THEY WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY if you're not 100% the way they want you to be, yet the Magic-Using Nations are written SO stupidly, they continuously act as if they CAN barter for Peace with the CS, no matter how many Magic Users it has crushed already -and no matter how many times Prosek says, publicly, that he'll wipe them ALL out given half the chance.

Does anybody REALLY believe that the Magic-Using Nations wouldn't have at least developed some sort of M.A.D Scenario by now that would have given even the CS pause??

They would have, IMHO, if the Authors had allowed those nations to act like Real People do..

[Dead Boy]

-Lack of effective explosives (Even long range missile don't have a great blast radius)

There's always that TW WMD I brought up last time this came up... and now that RUE has rules to make such a thing you can't claim there's no way to make one.

Who ever said this was an op run by PCs and thus governed by a GM? As with last time, I'm refering to a TW WMD made by a team of evil masters at their craft within the FOM, backed by the kind of money and resources such a serious undertaking would require. Once they prefected the design after an investment of years of time and billions of credits, the mass production of more would have a far greater success rate. THEN, after all is set, then the teleportation volleys are launched.

And as far as scoutting the city out from the inside out, dude, it's not as if there are no criminals in Chi-Town's lower levels that couldn't be bought to either sneak someone in or do the photo-recon themselves.

[The Beast]

Not sure if anyone brought this up yet.....

The CS does uses psychics. Mostly Psi-stalkers but the do have others as well. It is possible that such plots have been tried, and psychics, with dog boys and tech people helping, have detected these plots and stopped them. This probably wouldn't work for a lone wolf suicidal bomber with a teleport scroll though.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

lets play a game called "common sense"

First every major nation in north america is going to have(or at least try to have) spies within everyother nations.

So the good natured people in Lazlo hear of a plan to destroy chi-town by ways of a pro-magic/anti-cs terrorist group based in New Lazlo .
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

That "explanation" has been used for about a zillion years now, but at some point, even that has to go out the window in the "real" world.

Plato the Dragon: Let's go kill the Xiticix!!!

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Why should we do this thing, killing other Sentient Life???

Plato: Because, left to their own devices, the Xiticix pose a Threat to all on the Continent.

Lazlo Coucil of Learning: Oh. We see. So why shouldn't we formulate a long-term plan against the CS, if even a M.A.D. Scenario?? Left to their own devices, don't they ALSO pose a Threat to all on the Continent? Doesn't EVERY Argument that apply to the Xiticix, ALSO apply to the Coalition States??

Plato: Well...uh, yeah..... but..... [Insert Writer's Fiat here]

yup followed by watching new lazlo being used as a speed bump by the coalition war machine headed to lazlo and FOM.

And therein lies your Problem.

One of the problems with Extremists is their ...well......EXTREME Approach to most everything.

THEY are the ones who force their Opponents into a corner.

Don't take my word on it; just look at the real world.

Anti-War Types constantly tell us, "Don't go fight the Terrorists; you'll only antaginize them."

However, being the extremists that they are, ANYTHING that you do except accede 100% to their Demands, will antagonize them. Likewise with the CS.

Which is yet another BIG problem with the Magic-Using nations in General and how they're written in their struggle ith the CS. The CS has had eighty-plus years of showing conclusively that THEY WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY if you're not 100% the way they want you to be, yet the Magic-Using Nations are written SO stupidly, they continuously act as if they CAN barter for Peace with the CS, no matter how many Magic Users it has crushed already -and no matter how many times Prosek says, publicly, that he'll wipe them ALL out given half the chance.

Does anybody REALLY believe that the Magic-Using Nations wouldn't have at least developed some sort of M.A.D Scenario by now that would have given even the CS pause??

They would have, IMHO, if the Authors had allowed those nations to act like Real People do..

yes this is all good but still doesn't answer the questions
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

[Killer Cyborg]

-Lack of effective explosives (Even long range missile don't have a great blast radius)

There's always that TW WMD I brought up last time this came up... and now that RUE has rules to make such a thing you can't claim there's no way to make one.

Who ever said this was an op run by PCs and thus governed by a GM?

You lost me.
Are the NPCs in your games, and their actions, controlled by someone other than the GM...?

And as far as scoutting the city out from the inside out, dude, it's not as if there are no criminals in Chi-Town's lower levels that couldn't be bought to either sneak someone in or do the photo-recon themselves.

As I've said before, I picture the lower levels as having all sorts of problems that the upper levels don't have.
I picture terrorist bombs going off there periodically, and blowing up a bunch of downsiders that the upper level people don't care about.

[Vrykolas2k]

Personally, I think the end results of the SoT should have been left campaign-specific... as should any damage/ destruction of any CS cities.

[cornholioprime]

yes this is all good but still doesn't answer the questions
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

ALL of the Questions go out the Window when you're a City-State, or anyone for that matter, struggling to survive against as implacable foe.

You could ask the EXACT same Questions about the Xiticix, Atlantis (should Splynncryth decide that he'd like the North American Continent to add under his belt), the Vampire Kingdoms, or even Nxla.

And the Answer is: "They left us no choice. We HAD to ultimately take the Action that we did, anyway."

Real World examples:

How many "good-natured Souls" would STILL be opposed to the Nuclear Bombing of Japan if they'd taken the time to study and figure out what the Generals knew: By the most conservative estimates, kill a few hundred thousand people NOW, or kill up to a million Americans and up to SEVEN MILLION Japanese Civilians??

Should the Allies have NOT gone to fight against Hitler's Germany because of the VERY REAL possibility that the D-Day Invasion "would have turned south real quick?"

Should we base our decision to directly confront Islamic Radicals strictly on the question of how "other Nations will react to the Attack?"

Should we NOT have did what we could in the Cold War to slow the Soviets' World Communist Government Ambitions (by introducing M.A.D., supporting Opposing Forces wherever the Soviets were attempting to destabilize and then 'convert' a given Country, etc.), because we were afraid of "how the Soviets would respond to the Attack??"

..Again, the answer to both the Real World AND the Game World Scenarios is "We simply don't have a choice."

The only thing is, in the Real World, our Leaders (at least the ones who actually lead, Past or Present, Liberal or Conservative, Here or abroad) actually step up to the plate and make the hard decisions, the way that Human Beings ALWAYS do when they're backed into a corner.

However, it seems that in Rifts, Kevin doesn't allow the Magic-Using nations to......

[cornholioprime]

***Cornholioprime uses Supernatural Strength to pull the Topic back onto track***

So how about it, Mech-Viper?? And if you would, take off any "pro" or "anti" CS Hat that you've got on and humor me for a moment.

1]] For whatever reason, You're a Supernatural Creature, or a Magic User, or just a Plain Jane Mutant, and you're here on Rifts Earth in a Community/Town/City-State with similar people. You consider this your home just as any other Creature born here would.

2]] Your Enemy has made it clear that if you show him a Hostile Action, he'll kill you.

3]] BUT...your Enemy has ALSO stated that if you leave him to his own devices, he'll gather his strength/forces, and KILL YOU ANYWAY. He further demonstates this with almost every Military Action that he makes. He has clearly demonstrated that he means wat he says by destroying one of your neighbors.

What do you do when your back's against the wall??

You know the Answer as well as I, and were the Game written more realistically (at least Rifts North America), then the Magic-Using Nations wouldn't be handled in quite the way that they are.

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

[Dead Boy]

Who ever said this was an op run by PCs and thus governed by a GM?

You lost me.
Are the NPCs in your games, and their actions, controlled by someone other than the GM...?

If a Player Character were to embark on this plan, what would your reaction be? "Ok, you got a dozen years to set asside? 'Cause that's how long it will take you to even prefect that TW Super Bomb you have in mind." In effect you as the GM would never allow it to happen simply by making it too difficult for the players to make it work, by the rules or otherwise. NPCs on the other hand are not hindered by GM's in this way, because in this context of this board what they can and can't are more so governed by the laws of logic and probability, and not any one single GM who simply doesn't want such a thing in his particular game. As such, given that the CS has powerful enemies in the FOM, with virtually unlimited magic and material resources, who have been scheeming and planning multiple ways of destroying it, I think that the majority of us here can at the very least agree that it is possible that such well-backed FOM Terrorist can and probably do exist.

As with last time, I'm refering to a TW WMD made by a team of evil masters at their craft within the FOM, backed by the kind of money and resources such a serious undertaking would require. Once they prefected the design after an investment of years of time and billions of credits, the mass production of more would have a far greater success rate. THEN, after all is set, then the teleportation volleys are launched.

Sounds like such and investment in time, money, and energy would have a decent change of being discovered by spies or just passed on by someone wanting to make a buck or see the FoM fail.

Such a big project should be done in another dimension so the CS can't touch you. They just get the end product.

You mean like in the City of Bronze in FOM territory, where no CS operative even has an inkling where its front door is? That's not that big of a step for them.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

***Cornholioprime uses Supernatural Strength to pull the Topic back onto track***

So how about it, Mech-Viper?? And if you would, take off any "pro" or "anti" CS Hat that you've got on and humor me for a moment.

1]] For whatever reason, You're a Supernatural Creature, or a Magic User, or just a Plain Jane Mutant, and you're here on Rifts Earth in a Community/Town/City-State with similar people. You consider this your home just as any other Creature born here would.

2]] Your Enemy has made it clear that if you show him a Hostile Action, he'll kill you.

3]] BUT...your Enemy has ALSO stated that if you leave him to his own devices, he'll gather his strength/forces, and KILL YOU ANYWAY. He further demonstates this with almost every Military Action that he makes. He has clearly demonstrated that he means wat he says by destroying one of your neighbors.

What do you do when your back's against the wall??

You know the Answer as well as I, and were the Game written more realistically (at least Rifts North America), then the Magic-Using Nations wouldn't be handled in quite the way that they are.

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

humor you? sure why not, but if i do agree with you then the debate is over

[dark brandon]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

[Zer0 Kay]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

[Zer0 Kay]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

[Mech-Viper Prime]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

[Zer0 Kay]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

Both part, they probably wouldn't... maybe that's FQ's reason for not attacking they don't have a way of annihilating them yet and they think they'll run.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

Both part, they probably wouldn't... maybe that's FQ's reason for not attacking they don't have a way of annihilating them yet and they think they'll run.

the mortal enemy is a friendly joke, line of thinking as in magic can beat tech every time they face, honestly everybody would play both side different

[Zer0 Kay]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

Both part, they probably wouldn't... maybe that's FQ's reason for not attacking they don't have a way of annihilating them yet and they think they'll run.

the mortal enemy is a friendly joke, line of thinking as in magic can beat tech every time they face, honestly everybody would play both side different

Well in that case I hate you too and no not every time only when there side is smarter and doesn't depend on the loyalties of evil creatures.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

Both part, they probably wouldn't... maybe that's FQ's reason for not attacking they don't have a way of annihilating them yet and they think they'll run.

the mortal enemy is a friendly joke, line of thinking as in magic can beat tech every time they face, honestly everybody would play both side different

Well in that case I hate you too and no not every time only when there side is smarter and doesn't depend on the loyalties of evil creatures.

[Zer0 Kay]

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that if the CS were more like Free Quebec or the NGR in terms of "foreign" Policy, then the "bury your heads" stance of the NA Magic Kingdoms would make a great deal more sense in Game. Free Quebec, as written, doesn't seem to be hellbent on "Saving the Earth for the Humans," as evidenced by their "tolerance" of Lazlo....

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

CS takes out Tolkeen... easily. FQ is scared of the tiny Lazlo... overestimate magic much? Oh wait that book would actually use magic correctly and FQ would loose against the small, in comparison to Tolkeen, magic nation.

hardly my motral enemy, and just because of that line of thinking

What the heck are you talking about??

which part? mortal enemy? or the line of thinking? honest i think it would be a great fight FQ vs Lazlo, but i think lazlo would F U and just move the town to a more quiet area, they dont strike me as the stand and fight types

Both part, they probably wouldn't... maybe that's FQ's reason for not attacking they don't have a way of annihilating them yet and they think they'll run.

the mortal enemy is a friendly joke, line of thinking as in magic can beat tech every time they face, honestly everybody would play both side different

Well in that case I hate you too and no not every time only when there side is smarter and doesn't depend on the loyalties of evil creatures.

Dang this has made quite a nest

[Toc Rat]

yes this is all good but still doesn't answer the questions
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

Why haven't your "pure good natured" souls stopped the CS then?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yes this is all good but still doesn't answer the questions
Now how many pure good natured souls are going to let it happen if they can stop it? What will happen afterwards it goes off without a hitch? What happens it the plans goes off but turns south real quick? What happens if it goes off and nothing major happens? How will every other nation react to it? What will be the Coalition States reaction to the attack?

Why haven't your "pure good natured" souls stopped the CS then?

my elven ley line walker has a couple of times

[cornholioprime]

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

I don't remember reading that; but if true as you have stated it, then it makes even MORE of an Argument as to why the Magic-Using nations should be acting differently than written.

Not even the CS would have attacked as readily the City-State of Tolkeen, if only the Writers had allowed Tolkeen to act the way most any Nation-State would in Real Life or in Game, when faced with an enemy that so clearly shows that NOTHING short of Total Annihilation for its opponents will suffice.

If the NGR, El Dorado, Dweomer, the Forces of Light on Wormwood, or the Free World Council were written to act the same way that the NA Magic-Using Nations do, they'd have all most likely been overrun by now by their ruthless, implacable, Enemies...

[Vrykolas2k]

Personally, I think the end results of the SoT should have been left campaign-specific... as should any damage/ destruction of any CS cities.

I'm only one person, but I agree...

Naturally, voices of logic like ours are virtually ignored by the insane... erm, righteously wrathful... posters.

[dark brandon]

Note: Quebec's policy isn't much different than CS. It's stated in the Rifts main book and Rifts Ultimate Edition, Quebec would very much like to wipe lazlo off the face of the earth, the only reason they haven't is they don't feel they are strong enough.

I don't remember reading that; but if true as you have stated it, then it makes even MORE of an Argument as to why the Magic-Using nations should be acting differently than written.

Not even the CS would have attacked as readily the City-State of Tolkeen, if only the Writers had allowed Tolkeen to act the way most any Nation-State would in Real Life or in Game, when faced with an enemy that so clearly shows that NOTHING short of Total Annihilation for its opponents will suffice.

If the NGR, El Dorado, Dweomer, the Forces of Light on Wormwood, or the Free World Council were written to act the same way that the NA Magic-Using Nations do, they'd have all most likely been overrun by now by their ruthless, implacable, Enemies...

Really, who knows what would have happend. If lazlo would have attacked CS in defence of tolkeen, there's a good chance Quebec would have used this opportunity to attack lazlo. As stated, lazlo and tolkeen together didn't have chance, but lets say they gave it the good old college try anyways. CS would be hurt, but this would be the best opportunity for Quebec to find peace with CS and attack lazlo from their end. If lazlo already said they couldn't do it, how much chance will they have vs. Quebec and CS?

And quebec doesn't attack Lazlo because they don't feel strong enough (RMB and RUE, in the "world" section describing FQ), but what if now they saw their chance to take out a much hated enemie?

[Toc Rat]

Really, who knows what would have happend. If lazlo would have attacked CS in defence of tolkeen, there's a good chance Quebec would have used this opportunity to attack lazlo. As stated, lazlo and tolkeen together didn't have chance, but lets say they gave it the good old college try anyways. CS would be hurt, but this would be the best opportunity for Quebec to find peace with CS and attack lazlo from their end. If lazlo already said they couldn't do it, how much chance will they have vs. Quebec and CS?

And quebec doesn't attack Lazlo because they don't feel strong enough (RMB and RUE, in the "world" section describing FQ), but what if now they saw their chance to take out a much hated enemie?

Pg. 139 Free Quebec book, on Lazlo it says :"Free Quebec has no plans to invade, destroy sabotage or otherwise harm the kingdom." It goes on farther to say. "In keeping with their nonaggressive, isolationist policies, unless Lazlo begins to expand close to them or pose some tangible threat, the government and Military of Quebec are content to leave them alone."

This more then any other passage I feel most illustrates the difference between FQ and the Coalition under Chi-Town's (prosek) rule. The CS is a xenophobic expansionistic nation. Free Quebec is a xenophobic isolationist nation. In other words their feelings can be sumed up thus, "You leave us alone, we'll leave you alone."

That being the case I believe it highly unlikely that Free Qubec would have launched a war against Lazlo, or any other nation, that did not directly threaten them. As the passage says, as long as Lazlo doesn't expand it's borders in to what FQ considers it's land, they are happy to not get involved in a war.

[dark brandon]

Really, who knows what would have happend. If lazlo would have attacked CS in defence of tolkeen, there's a good chance Quebec would have used this opportunity to attack lazlo. As stated, lazlo and tolkeen together didn't have chance, but lets say they gave it the good old college try anyways. CS would be hurt, but this would be the best opportunity for Quebec to find peace with CS and attack lazlo from their end. If lazlo already said they couldn't do it, how much chance will they have vs. Quebec and CS?

And quebec doesn't attack Lazlo because they don't feel strong enough (RMB and RUE, in the "world" section describing FQ), but what if now they saw their chance to take out a much hated enemie?

Pg. 139 Free Quebec book, on Lazlo it says :"Free Quebec has no plans to invade, destroy sabotage or otherwise harm the kingdom." It goes on farther to say. "In keeping with their nonaggressive, isolationist policies, unless Lazlo begins to expand close to them or pose some tangible threat, the government and Military of Quebec are content to leave them alone."

This more then any other passage I feel most illustrates the difference between FQ and the Coalition under Chi-Town's (prosek) rule. The CS is a xenophobic expansionistic nation. Free Quebec is a xenophobic isolationist nation. In other words their feelings can be sumed up thus, "You leave us alone, we'll leave you alone."

That being the case I believe it highly unlikely that Free Qubec would have launched a war against Lazlo, or any other nation, that did not directly threaten them. As the passage says, as long as Lazlo doesn't expand it's borders in to what FQ considers it's land, they are happy to not get involved in a war.

RMB: 150 "FQ sees lazlo as a growing problem, but does not feel that they are powerful enough to tackle them in an armed conflict. At this point their policy is one of neutrality, as long as lazlo leaves them alone, they will leave them alone. At least for the time being."

RUE: 21 "FQ sees lazlo as a growing problem, but does not feel that they are powerful enough to tackle them in an armed conflict. At this point their policy is one of neutrality, as long as lazlo leaves them alone, they will leave them alone. At least for the time being."

(yeah, same thing). basically, the only reason they haven't attacked, even by the new book is that they don't feel they can take them. Now, if they could take them, I'm not sure what we'd see. From what i've read, they would try to take Lazlo apart.

And non-aggressive as they are, i'm almost sure if lazlo was waring with CS, making them weaker, Quebeck would probably attack them form a second front. Alone, FQ can't take them, but maybe with CS"s help they could.

To me, this says FQ would probably be just as much expantionist as CS, if they had the power.

[Toc Rat]

We will agree to disagree then. Once again we both look at the same information and draw two completly different conclusions.

Free Quebec, formally the second most powerful of the Coalition States, should have suffcient power now to take on Lazlo. Certainly when factoring the benevolent hand of God that will no doubt shine upon them as not only a former CS state but also a tech using nation.

One other thing to keep in mind is that the information presented in the Rifts Core book and Rifts UE, is that they are strictly Erin Tarn's take on the world. While accurate for the most part, she is not infallible and does not have all the information. The data given to us in the FQ book on the other hand is OOC information given as such by the writers.

Not that any of that will matter to your view I'm sure. Hmm but then if it did it would mean we actually agreed on something again! I'm not sure if we're allowed to do that more then once a year...

[Larsen]

since I've never read sot I just wanted to add that it would be cool to play in a post sot chi-town where the cs's attempt to destroy tolkein succeeded but at the price of their capital. To play as a city-rat there who now has to deal with his dwellings in ruins.

[Toc Rat]

since I've never read sot I just wanted to add that it would be cool to play in a post sot chi-town where the cs's attempt to destroy tolkein succeeded but at the price of their capital. To play as a city-rat there who now has to deal with his dwellings in ruins.

An interesting setting idea! I wonder who the new head of the CS would be? Iron Heart? It has always struck me as a wanting more n more power. Would the Coalition remain an empire or go back to it's pre-emperor state and become a republic once more? This idea has possibilities...

[Mech-Viper Prime]

since I've never read sot I just wanted to add that it would be cool to play in a post sot chi-town where the cs's attempt to destroy tolkein succeeded but at the price of their capital. To play as a city-rat there who now has to deal with his dwellings in ruins.

An interesting setting idea! I wonder who the new head of the CS would be? Iron Heart? It has always struck me as a wanting more n more power. Would the Coalition remain an empire or go back to it's pre-emperor state and become a republic once more? This idea has possibilities...

jean of fq is just as bad as karl
then Benford of lonestar but he would sucker a good general to be a puppet ruler as he pulled the stings behind the throne
its not like they will give miss tarn the job

[Killer Cyborg]

Who ever said this was an op run by PCs and thus governed by a GM?

You lost me.
Are the NPCs in your games, and their actions, controlled by someone other than the GM...?

If a Player Character were to embark on this plan, what would your reaction be? "Ok, you got a dozen years to set asside? 'Cause that's how long it will take you to even prefect that TW Super Bomb you have in mind." In effect you as the GM would never allow it to happen simply by making it too difficult for the players to make it work, by the rules or otherwise. NPCs on the other hand are not hindered by GM's in this way, because in this context of this board what they can and can't are more so governed by the laws of logic and probability, and not any one single GM who simply doesn't want such a thing in his particular game. As such, given that the CS has powerful enemies in the FOM, with virtually unlimited magic and material resources, who have been scheeming and planning multiple ways of destroying it, I think that the majority of us here can at the very least agree that it is possible that such well-backed FOM Terrorist can and probably do exist.

The rules of logic and probability state that some things are possible and some things are impossible.
It's up to the GM to decide what techno-wizardy works and what doesn't.
As a GM, I would rule that a TW WMD could NOT be made. Just like I would rule that nobody on Rifts Earth can make any more ICBMs; the pre-rifts ones are all that are there.

Even if it IS possible, there's nothing saying that the R&D time wouldn't be measured in thousands of years.

Once again, it sounds like you are acting as if NPCs were somehow beyond the control of the GM.

[Qev]

Even if it IS possible, there's nothing saying that the R&D time wouldn't be measured in thousands of years.

Thousands of years? We, with our pathetic 20th century technology, went from pure theory to ICBMs within around 20 years (the first ICBM ever tested was the R-7, back in 1954, I believe). For a civilization as advanced and war-driven as those of Rifts Earth, I could see them developing insanely high-yield devices in a very short time.

This all really does come down to GM's call, obviously, since it's their game! Just from a logical standpoint, everyone would be developing these sorts of devices, as fast as possible, even if just for the deterent value.

Hey, maybe we should start a CS vs. Magic-Using Nations roleplay thread, everyone who likes the CS on one side, everyone who likes their enemies on the other, and we could see how a war would really turn out! Uh... I think we might need a referee, tho...

[Larsen]

since I've never read sot I just wanted to add that it would be cool to play in a post sot chi-town where the cs's attempt to destroy tolkein succeeded but at the price of their capital. To play as a city-rat there who now has to deal with his dwellings in ruins.

An interesting setting idea! I wonder who the new head of the CS would be? Iron Heart? It has always struck me as a wanting more n more power. Would the Coalition remain an empire or go back to it's pre-emperor state and become a republic once more? This idea has possibilities...

jean of fq is just as bad as karl
then Benford of lonestar but he would sucker a good general to be a puppet ruler as he pulled the stings behind the throne
its not like they will give miss tarn the job

I was thinking very similair things about bradford myself. He lefts someone who appears to be strong take command and establish say iron heart as the capital but in reality is controlled and abused by bradford and his institute in lone star gets all the power for themselves.

[Daniel Stoker]

Even if it IS possible, there's nothing saying that the R&D time wouldn't be measured in thousands of years.

Thousands of years? We, with our pathetic 20th century technology, went from pure theory to ICBMs within around 20 years (the first ICBM ever tested was the R-7, back in 1954, I believe). For a civilization as advanced and war-driven as those of Rifts Earth, I could see them developing insanely high-yield devices in a very short time.

You're assuming that the level of progression in technology will continue to progress like it has and after a time we won't hit a plateau of where we can 'go'.



Daniel Stoker

[Qev]

You're assuming that the level of progression in technology will continue to progress like it has and after a time we won't hit a plateau of where we can 'go'.


Daniel Stoker

Why do people put there name in the end of a post like its some kind of formal letter? We already know your name. Its call a profile/avatar. Stop thinking its cool. Its not.

To each their own, Captain Solo.

As for Daniel's post... well, they already have nuclear technology in Rifts; it's everywhere. Every robot vehicle or war machine has a nuclear power plant. They're obviously well versed in nuclear physics; knowledgable enough to create mini-nukes, which is actually harder to do than creating great big city-buster nukes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even if it IS possible, there's nothing saying that the R&D time wouldn't be measured in thousands of years.

Thousands of years? We, with our pathetic 20th century technology, went from pure theory to ICBMs within around 20 years (the first ICBM ever tested was the R-7, back in 1954, I believe). For a civilization as advanced and war-driven as those of Rifts Earth, I could see them developing insanely high-yield devices in a very short time.

On the other hand, places like Phase World that are supposedly way more advanced than Rifts Earth aren't that much more powerful.

In any case, we're talking about Techno-Wizardy, which isn't technology so much as it is magic. And magic can evolve pretty slowly.

This all really does come down to GM's call, obviously, since it's their game! Just from a logical standpoint, everyone would be developing these sorts of devices, as fast as possible, even if just for the deterent value.

No.
Logically, everybody would be trying to develop these sorts of devices.

[Killer Cyborg]

You're assuming that the level of progression in technology will continue to progress like it has and after a time we won't hit a plateau of where we can 'go'.


Daniel Stoker

Why do people put there name in the end of a post like its some kind of formal letter? We already know your name. Its call a profile/avatar. Stop thinking its cool. Its not.

To each their own, Captain Solo.

As for Daniel's post... well, they already have nuclear technology in Rifts; it's everywhere. Every robot vehicle or war machine has a nuclear power plant. They're obviously well versed in nuclear physics; knowledgable enough to create mini-nukes, which is actually harder to do than creating great big city-buster nukes.

Actually, I mentioned to Kevin that he might patch things by simply explaining that the laws of physics got altered a bit when the Rifts came, and that nukes just aren't as powerful as they used to be.
I don't know if he'll go with that idea or not, but he liked it.

[cornholioprime]

I think there should of been a back lash against the Fortress City of Chi-Town. Like a big portion got ported away or an annihalation TW Nuke or something went off. Not this Coalition going all over and kicking but while the fortress stand unscathed with no scratches and sparkles. That doesn't seem realistic.

Hence my Sig.

Don't get me wrong: without Super-Nukes of their own, I don't see ANY one Force on Rifts Earth besides Atlantis and the Vampire Kingdoms being able to destroy the CS outright.

But to hear The Man describe the City-State, Chi-Town's Outer Walls probably don't even have Graffiti on them......

[cornholioprime]

Actually, I mentioned to Kevin that he might patch things by simply explaining that the laws of physics got altered a bit when the Rifts came, and that nukes just aren't as powerful as they used to be.
I don't know if he'll go with that idea or not, but he liked it.

I would think that it was far enough in the future, with so many nuke powered weapons or devices having been made over the years, plus the environment is so hostile, the fissionable material is just hard to find in vast quantities.

Why waste it in a nuke when you would power a dozen PA or robots and lay a better swath of destruction?

Unfortunately, that wont be the case for a long, long time.

As I recall, the Transuranic Elements are quite plentiful in the Earth's crust, even by our Real World, "primitive" Refinement Standards (which in the Real World is quite a good thing; it's the main thing that makes Nukes so damned expensive to build).........

[Vrykolas2k]

Still think it all should have been campaign specific.
Not a railroad.

[Qev]

Actually, I mentioned to Kevin that he might patch things by simply explaining that the laws of physics got altered a bit when the Rifts came, and that nukes just aren't as powerful as they used to be.
I don't know if he'll go with that idea or not, but he liked it.

Scotching the nuclear forces probably wouldn't work like that... fission and fusion reactors would no longer work, and depending how far this effect went, the Sun would probably go out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, I mentioned to Kevin that he might patch things by simply explaining that the laws of physics got altered a bit when the Rifts came, and that nukes just aren't as powerful as they used to be.
I don't know if he'll go with that idea or not, but he liked it.

Scotching the nuclear forces probably wouldn't work like that... fission and fusion reactors would no longer work, and depending how far this effect went, the Sun would probably go out.

All depends on how the rules of physics were changed.
I don't completely understand how all of them work now, so I can't say for sure what sort of effects changing them might have.

[Qev]

All depends on how the rules of physics were changed.
I don't completely understand how all of them work now, so I can't say for sure what sort of effects changing them might have.

Well, Rifts is fantasy... but that sort of solution to the problem seems rather contrived to me.

Some sort of magical nuclear damping field could be going on... but still, shouldn't that also affect nuclear reactors, making them unfeasible?

IRL, anyway, even slight changes to the strengths of the fundamental forces would cause all sorts of havoc. Weakening the strong force would make fusion release less energy... but would also make the nuclei of heavier atoms unstable; strengthening it makes fusion harder to achieve but more energetic (I think).

Some people like to use the peculiarly exacting balance of forces in our universe as evidence for Intelligent Design.

Of course, there is some evidence that the fine structure constant may be changing over time... which would be really, really weird if it turns out to be true.