Why the CS?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

[Damian Magecraft]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

As long as we are throwing out quotes how about we remember this one?

"History is written by the winner"
in the long run wheather the CS is Good or Evil will all depend on who wins the war for survival...

[Zer0 Kay]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

[Zer0 Kay]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

As long as we are throwing out quotes how about we remember this one?

"History is written by the winner"
in the long run wheather the CS is Good or Evil will all depend on who wins the war for survival...

And the number of D-bees to Human ratio in the Megaverse. Bet goes to D-bees or a scorched Earth no writer.

[Zer0 Kay]

History is written by the social/academic elite (basically the ones telling the history).

Only if their on the surviving/ winning side history written by the looser is often burned or ignored. So any Britts? What does it say in your history books about the Revolution?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

[Zer0 Kay]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

But the scientists aren't fellow soldiers. Besides why do they need an alarm do they always sleep on the job?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

But the scientists aren't fellow soldiers. Besides why do they need an alarm do they always sleep on the job?

you just need a trip to the wood shed huh?

[Zer0 Kay]

RCSG are soldiers in the CS Army. They go though boot camp and all.

to quote.

"The RCSG group is a highly specialized branch of the service composed primarily of combat scientists who are charged withthe study and containment of the Rifts. Remember, while these are men of science, they are also trained soldiers. They are clever, inventive, observant, and can handle themselves in combat."

Plus they are allowed to use ley lines and try to control them.

"It is their mission to study and learn about how the Rifts and related dimensional phenomena work and how they might be controlled."

plus

"Furthermore, as scientific experts on ley lines and magic (as opposed to practitioners of magic who have a superior metaphysical understanding of how Rifts and magic works)"

So the ablity to float and heal is explained as scientific fact not magic.

Think of it as someone explaining how a hot air ballon can fly. to the uneducated that would seem like magic till they learned the scientific fact about it

Well that's interesting... so you just said that magic is science. It is only the greater understanding of the science that makes it seem like magic. Because floating in air and healing from a Rift when your buddies can't would be magic to me... especially when those powers are granted by the PPE from the Leyline.

It's like claiming that the basket of a hot air balloon is alright because we understand that so it is science, so we can use that, but the balloon itself is magic it and we must destroy it... hopefully RCSG guys will do that when their high in the air.

[Zer0 Kay]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

But the scientists aren't fellow soldiers. Besides why do they need an alarm do they always sleep on the job?

you just need a trip to the wood shed huh?

Ha I got the switch first

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

But the scientists aren't fellow soldiers. Besides why do they need an alarm do they always sleep on the job?

you just need a trip to the wood shed huh?

Ha I got the switch first

[dark brandon]

Correction I didn't say it, the book did.


I think it's just away the CS and RCSG justify it.

Remember the RCSG will not smell like a magice user to a Doy Boy they have normal ppe.

correct

[cornholioprime]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

The difference between the Revolutionary War and, say, the Conquests of the Soviet Empire IS quite profound, don't you think???

I don't seem to recall people dying by the millions because George Washington (Slave-owner though he was) was trying to force his view of the world upon others...

[cornholioprime]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

As long as we are throwing out quotes how about we remember this one?

"History is written by the winner"
in the long run wheather the CS is Good or Evil will all depend on who wins the war for survival...

Not quite true when History is observed/recorded by outside parties......which is the way things are today in the Real World and how Kevin has set things up in the Rifts Game: outside, (mostly) objective Observers who record History as accurately as they know how.

Not to mention the ultmate, most accurate Historians of Rifts, the Authors themselves...

[Janus]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

The difference between the Revolutionary War and, say, the Conquests of the Soviet Empire IS quite profound, don't you think???

I don't seem to recall people dying by the millions because George Washington (Slave-owner though he was) was trying to force his view of the world upon others...

Um nope not at all and not to those peopel affected by it. Also these peopel were still the end justifies the means. Do not think because these "heroes" gave us freedom that they are any different from any other radcial looking for change.

[cornholioprime]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

The difference between the Revolutionary War and, say, the Conquests of the Soviet Empire IS quite profound, don't you think???

I don't seem to recall people dying by the millions because George Washington (Slave-owner though he was) was trying to force his view of the world upon others...

Um nope not at all and not to those peopel affected by it. Also these peopel were still the end justifies the means. Do not think because these "heroes" gave us freedom that they are any different from any other radcial looking for change.

???

[Janus]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

The difference between the Revolutionary War and, say, the Conquests of the Soviet Empire IS quite profound, don't you think???

I don't seem to recall people dying by the millions because George Washington (Slave-owner though he was) was trying to force his view of the world upon others...

Um nope not at all and not to those peopel affected by it. Also these peopel were still the end justifies the means. Do not think because these "heroes" gave us freedom that they are any different from any other radcial looking for change.

???

Well you asked if I thought the difference between the COnquests of the Soviet Union and the revolution was profound. I merely said not to those quite in the middle of it who believed being on that field of battle fighting for what they believed in was not exactly like sitting home with ma and the kids. Also Let us look at some other great Americn heroes. Custer wiped out a villiage of women and children, or even the entire American Nation sending the Cherokee on a little hike. NOw I am not justifying antone actions or downplaying atrocities, obviously through the years there have been plenty (the Holocaust comes to mind). However I am not going to not include American leaders based on history painting them as patriotic sons either. Man is the problem and generally located globally, Rifts is not any different. The men there have a need for survival and they see the CS as the means to an end. They are not looking at an individual and saying well he only conjured that fireball once to light the camp fire I guess he is alright (in early America, you got burned cause of a mole in the wrong place and someone calling you a witch), hey he seems alright even though he has been that jedi mind trick on everyone he meets to get an extra sandwich (yeah I could see wanting to hang with someone who can read my mind and act against my will) or even this mean looking fellow is alright he only eats the flesh of humans whe he is really hungry...you were done woth that sandwich right. Does the CS classifying all the DBs, men of magic, psionics, mutants, etc as dangers that must be stopped at all costs bad? Maybe, but NA is no longer a melting pot of ideas, it is untamed wildernesss that you fight to survive in. Does their illiterate and easily led soldiers who blindly follow the propaganda do any good because they wipe out DBs, etc, maybe if peopel want to live in a land that they believe is more like prerifts. The CS makes a nice villian and is painted that way to keep the world of rifts alive. They are a tool and plot device. The CS hierarchy has evil alignments, but not all the soldiers do. The soldiers for the most part follow their orders and try their best to do what is right for their family, friends, and emperor. When you are out in the field where peopel are dying by untamed magics, you tend to shoot first and question why later. Maybe in this day and age I would befriend the little magic user...until like in the movies he conjures forth a demon of the abyss and then it is time to call in the national guard.

[Zer0 Kay]

Correction I didn't say it, the book did.


I think it's just away the CS and RCSG justify it.

Remember the RCSG will not smell like a magice user to a Doy Boy they have normal ppe.

So you didn't say it. Eh... maybe don't really care, just having some fun.
I think the dogboys and psistalkers senses kinda get mucked up around Leylines seeing as how their trying to track PPE in an ambient background of even higher PPE. Like trying to track a drop of rain in a river.

[Zer0 Kay]

Sounds like your ego is getting as large so Yes to what?

the guards shotting the RCSG

So you agree a xeno/mystic-phobic culture would zap the hell out of em especially if it was just the grunts and not higher-ups who figured they have their uses.

no, i think grunts assigned to the RCSG would know better, then to open fire on thier fellow soldiers unless a alarm was sounded

But the scientists aren't fellow soldiers. Besides why do they need an alarm do they always sleep on the job?

you just need a trip to the wood shed huh?

Ha I got the switch first

Oh common now... put the hatchet down

Oh your not going to use it on me... what a releif so what are you doing? Why are you hacking at that branch? Darn no emote for running and screaming like a little girl.

[Zer0 Kay]

Correction I didn't say it, the book did.


I think it's just away the CS and RCSG justify it.

Remember the RCSG will not smell like a magice user to a Doy Boy they have normal ppe.

correct

And again wouldn't the Leyline act like a river to a tracking dog?

[Zer0 Kay]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

As long as we are throwing out quotes how about we remember this one?

"History is written by the winner"
in the long run wheather the CS is Good or Evil will all depend on who wins the war for survival...

Not quite true when History is observed/recorded by outside parties......which is the way things are today in the Real World and how Kevin has set things up in the Rifts Game: outside, (mostly) objective Observers who record History as accurately as they know how.

Not to mention the ultmate, most accurate Historians of Rifts, the Authors themselves...

Ah however how many people in the CS read Tarn's books?

[Zer0 Kay]

I still say attacking the CS gets you stuff, and stuff is always cool

So work for the Naruni, they have cooler stuff.

[Zer0 Kay]

SO what would make them less of a villain? Accepting every one and everything. Me thinks that could be very harmful. NOt all demons and monsters are friendly not all are evil. I think that indivdual soldiers have to say well it is either him or me and in the Rifts world it is a very real possibility that if they err on the side well they may be good Mr. CS may be lunch. I think Kevin did a good job as painting these guys evil. However I think we over look the tendancy that when we go adventuring our PCs sometimes shoot first and ask questions never. Wher lies the difference? The PC lets people read?

One way of extremism is not a substitute for another. The CS should be more gray, if you will, then just black and white.

They cannot be more gray. Their armor is black. I do not think that the CS are evil mostly because they fight to uphold their belief system. I think they have very grounded fears. They take extreme measures, but then we are now in an extreme time period. It is a shame that Prosek is considered diabolical when paranoid seems to fit more. The CS veiws itself to be good and beleives itself to be fightig for humanity. This may be propaganda from the higher ups, but to the masses that are CS and who live in the CS this is what they stand for. This is what makes them excellent villains. They are only seeing things in the black and white of the world, there is no gray for them. Personally i thkn they just look cool. I have no particular leanings toward them one way or another. I just wanted to see what everyones reaction would be to see someone come out and sing their laurels. Not much, but really good interaction and debate. I am impressed.

Pardon my harsh "language" and response, but too damn bad. What they want, and what they do to get it, are two DIFFERENT things. You know, the old axiom of "the ends do not justify the means" and all that.

In the Real World, virtually EVERY Despot, Magalomaniac, and would-be tyrant thorughout History has thought that (s)he was either protecting against a percieved threat, gaining needed resources, or most insidously, believed that their System of doing things would make the world more or less perfect if only everyone in the whole world was forced to act the same way.

Hitler, Stalin, the Thugees, the Khmer Rouge, Chairman Mao, Reverend Jim Jones, and Torquemada ALL believed that what they were doing would change the world for the better. But they were all STILL evil.

Likewise in Game, a Mage that sacrifices a Child, or a Coalition Military Official giving the command to kill that selfsame Child are BOTH still committing evil acts, no matter how well they attempt to justify their actions to themselves or others.

As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions...

Include in your list of people George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc etc Revolutionary War heroes.

The difference between the Revolutionary War and, say, the Conquests of the Soviet Empire IS quite profound, don't you think???

I don't seem to recall people dying by the millions because George Washington (Slave-owner though he was) was trying to force his view of the world upon others...

Um nope not at all and not to those peopel affected by it. Also these peopel were still the end justifies the means. Do not think because these "heroes" gave us freedom that they are any different from any other radcial looking for change.

???

Well you asked if I thought the difference between the COnquests of the Soviet Union and the revolution was profound. I merely said not to those quite in the middle of it who believed being on that field of battle fighting for what they believed in was not exactly like sitting home with ma and the kids. Also Let us look at some other great Americn heroes. Custer wiped out a villiage of women and children, or even the entire American Nation sending the Cherokee on a little hike. NOw I am not justifying antone actions or downplaying atrocities, obviously through the years there have been plenty (the Holocaust comes to mind). However I am not going to not include American leaders based on history painting them as patriotic sons either. Man is the problem and generally located globally, Rifts is not any different. The men there have a need for survival and they see the CS as the means to an end. They are not looking at an individual and saying well he only conjured that fireball once to light the camp fire I guess he is alright (in early America, you got burned cause of a mole in the wrong place and someone calling you a witch), hey he seems alright even though he has been that jedi mind trick on everyone he meets to get an extra sandwich (yeah I could see wanting to hang with someone who can read my mind and act against my will) or even this mean looking fellow is alright he only eats the flesh of humans whe he is really hungry...you were done woth that sandwich right. Does the CS classifying all the DBs, men of magic, psionics, mutants, etc as dangers that must be stopped at all costs bad? Maybe, but NA is no longer a melting pot of ideas, it is untamed wildernesss that you fight to survive in. Does their illiterate and easily led soldiers who blindly follow the propaganda do any good because they wipe out DBs, etc, maybe if peopel want to live in a land that they believe is more like prerifts. The CS makes a nice villian and is painted that way to keep the world of rifts alive. They are a tool and plot device. The CS hierarchy has evil alignments, but not all the soldiers do. The soldiers for the most part follow their orders and try their best to do what is right for their family, friends, and emperor. When you are out in the field where peopel are dying by untamed magics, you tend to shoot first and question why later. Maybe in this day and age I would befriend the little magic user...until like in the movies he conjures forth a demon of the abyss and then it is time to call in the national guard.

Major difference between the CS and the US... There are still Native Americans living in the US, there are still people from all over the world who come to the US for citizenship. As token as it may be the US has tried to make reperations with the offended. After WWII we helped the Japanese back to their feet. Now then I doubt in a CS/Nazi conquerored world their would be anything other living than the master race. They'd probably kill off all the psychers and ALL mutants, once they secured the planet. I'm waiting for a marque on the side of Chi-Town that says For Humans by Humans...Human Power...Go home D-Bee we don't want to have to see...One Planet one people, find your own.

[cornholioprime]

I wouldn't consider Custer an american hero..he got it handed to him at bighorn for being an idiot...

Custer is/was an abomination to all who have ever worn the uniform of the American Soldier...even by the barbaric "Rules" of War in times past.

Not long ago, I discovered the "un-whitewashed" version of how the man (sic) actually operated.

He used such cowardly tactics in battle against the Indians, and even towards his own troops, that even Nazis looked good by comparison.

At least they fought man-to-man, head on......

[dark brandon]

I wouldn't consider Custer an american hero..he got it handed to him at bighorn for being an idiot...

Custer is/was an abomination to all who have ever worn the uniform of the American Soldier...even by the barbaric "Rules" of War in times past.

Not long ago, I discovered the "un-whitewashed" version of how the man (sic) actually operated.

He used such cowardly tactics in battle against the Indians, and even towards his own troops, that even Nazis looked good by comparison.

At least they fought man-to-man, head on......

Custer was a hero up until recently. For that matter, he wasn't the only one, from what I understand, he would be a decent model for a typical general of the time. To Hear what the american army did to not just the japanise, and indians but to mexicans and blacks and mormans as well. Grant is another one of them "heroes/villains" types...

NOw I am not justifying antone actions or downplaying atrocities, obviously through the years there have been plenty (the Holocaust comes to mind). However I am not going to not include American leaders based on history painting them as patriotic sons either. Man is the problem and generally located globally, Rifts is not any different.

I think his point still stands though.

As token as it may be the US has tried to make reperations with the offended. After WWII we helped the Japanese back to their feet. Now then I doubt in a CS/Nazi conquerored world their would be anything other living than the master race. They'd probably kill off all the psychers and ALL mutants, once they secured the planet.

As you said, they are token and mostly it seems only done for political sakes than righting the wrong. For the japanese, we tried, but it was almost pathetic attempts and even to this day there are japanese americans who are waiting for reperations for something that happend over 50 years ago. And that's just for them. We still have other people, again, indians to blacks.

As for how the CS world would go, We can't really be sure after all it is just a game where even the laws of physics don't apply fully, so who's to say how something as minor as 'human nature' will react to things. Personally, I see it as evolving on the level of turning into a more "romanesk" type government than stay it's current dictatorship. I don't see them ever giving out any type of reperations for anything, but if a world ends up becoming to the point where people feel much safer than they do in the current rifts timeline, you may have something evolve into a society that is willing to let 'things' visit.