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Nawww...I'm thinking goatee with pointed ears!

Kevin (And Anti-Kevin) Both deny this. Aprently Anti-Steve designed a Game that was Universal... and not completly-beyond-human-understand-complex.

If Kevin and Steve Jackson got married, what would their children look like?

As for the OP, it doesn't matter what they are called, they are the nails needed to complete their commander's master peice. And if a few of those nails break, well, you have a whole bucket of nails to replace them with.

Nelzie wrote:The Second Robotech War only lasted for 1 year, hardly the 5 years the preceding Robotech War lasted

Umm, the 2nd Robotech War lasted almost 2 years (Jan. 2029 to June 2020). The 1st Robotech War lasted a little over 2 years (the second 'season' of The Macross Saga was called Reconstruction and is considered to be post-war).

in the end the Robotech Masters just left, they didn't attempt and all destructive all out assault

What the @%^$! Did you even WATCH the show? The final 2 episodes (The Invid Connection and Catastrophe)are about the Final Offensive by both the UEF and the Robotech Masters. Furthermore, per dialogue in Catastrophe, The Lost City and Ghost Town the fighting was planetwide AND the Masters attempted their own version of The Rain of Death.

and then crash land all over the planet and sit around for years duking it out.

Uh, yea they did. As per the Narrator from The Invid Invasion

The Narrator: The Armies of the Southern Cross, weary from constant battles with the Robotech Masters prove no match for the inspired, battle hungry Invid.

They hardly ignore the Southern Cross in the old RPG.

I never said they did, but the amount of information that was gotten wrong far exceeded any other gaff made in the old edition of the RPG.

CavScout wrote:How do you know they are REF?

Nothing says they aren't and dialogue from several different episodes in The New Generation talk about the REF forces that returned to battle the Robotech Masters.

CavScout wrote:This actually cuts against your other suggestions that Leonard was head honcho even over the REF. If Leonard was the headman of all military forces, REF and ASC, he should have had the ability, and authority, to order forces to return to Earth. Instead, he is told they are getting nothing.

Here are a few thoughts by SgtAnjay from 2 years back. He summed up this situation far better than I ever could, so I defer to his wisdom:

SgtAnjay wrote:......the headquarters of the United Earth Forces are going to be on Earth. It's ridiculous to propose otherwise. That means that the leader of the United Earth Forces is going to be on Earth, commanding the United Earth Forces. That person is shown to be Leonard every single time, without fail, without mention of a missing superior, without any dialogue showing Leonard defer to anyone else outside of the Prime Minister, and without mention of any military rank which would supersede Supreme Commander.

SgtAnjay wrote:the top of the military chain of command will be on Earth. That way, they can advise civilian authorities, lobby for the military's needs to the civilians directly, manage the resources of the force as a whole so that all branches recieve their due, whether in terms of money, supplies, equipment, or personnel, oversee the force to make sure they're performing their assigned duties, determine overarching strategy from the point of view of the entire UEF as opposed to any particular post or front, and a million other tasks that come with that job. Being an officer is about more than telling your guys to make the enemy go boom, and sometimes the most important part is the administrative side. You dont, wont, and cant do it from a combat fleet out in space, that's for sure. Anyway, only one person is shown having that authority, or bears an appropriate tittle (which "admiral" is definately not): Leonard.

Sgt Anjay wrote:The implication that sending a distress call when Earth has been attacked and blockaded from space to a far-flung and powerful branch of your space forces is somehow s subservient act is likewise silly; what do you want them to send, an "all's well"? Now, once the mayday is recieved what they can spare to send back can be left up to the commander out in the field to determine, especially if they're in the middle of an engagement themselves at the time. That judgement would traditionally be up for review if it was lacking when he returned, of course, though the circumstances made that pretty unlikely in the REF's case.

CavScout wrote:It is my impression that Leonard and the ASC were requesting help not ordering reinforcements.

Emerson states in Mind Games that they have been brought back from their mission in deep space.

Nelzie wrote:Review the timeline as presented in Robotech: TSC RPG.

The 1st Robotech War is shown as lasting as a "Hot War" for approximately 5 years, starting in 2009 and ending in 2014.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? The 1st Robotech War lasted a little over 2 years in the Tv series.

The 2nd Robotech War is shown as beginning in one year and then ending in the next. Essentially the time they cover is one year, give or take a few months/weeks.

states that approximately one year after the Robotech Masters leave, the Invid arrive and kick everyone's behind and mentions how some survivors of the UEDF and the Southern Cross Armies flee into space. (This opens the doors pretty wide open to include all sorts of Southern Cross mecha/ships and battloids in TSC and or Invid Invasion games.)

Okay, again, the Tv series clearly states the Masters lead an all-out final offensive against the Earth. They did not have the ability to leave Earth since their city-ships were down to less than 5 days worth of power. They could not space-fold. These are all facts from the Tv series.

Which was nothing, compared to the final push that the Zentraedi under the command of Dolza perpetrated against the Earth. The Robotech Masters simply couldn't afford to waste that much energy on the assault, as was made clear many times during the show to explain why they didn't spacefold over Earth and instead used a less energy intensive and significantly slower interstellar drive to reach Earth.

What part of Final Offensive did not make sense? It was their final attempt to pacify the planet in order to retrieve the Protoculture Factory from The Ruins of the SDF-01.

I recall all the Robotech Masters ships leaving Earth behind.

You would be recalling wrong.

The Southern Cross Armies had essentially lost their command structure and were reeling from the final push that the Robotech Masters made. Without that solid command structure and the damage done across the planet (which wasn't nearly as bad as what the Zentraedi did) it was no wonder that they put up virtually no defense against the onslaught of the Invid.

Militaries are designed to survive the loss of the upper command. Its called 'Instant Promotion'. Second of all, the UEG detected the Invid a full day before their arrival (Frostbite) and ordered cities to be evacuated. Since the UEF uses lots of subsurface facilities (reference the 15th ATACs battalion laager and the TASC's landing field with fighter bunkers built into the side of a mountain), they would simply have laid hidden and let the Invid attack those big old empty cities. The Invid brought nothing but numbers to the table and did to the UEF what had been done, in turn, to the Masters by the UEF: destroy them logistically. The Invid could afford to lose a swarm of mecha where the UEF could not afford to lose many. Simple.

We have already been over this chestnut, haven't we?

What chestnut is that, pray tell?

Nelzie wrote: Review the timeline as presented in Robotech: TSC RPG.

The 1st Robotech War is shown as lasting as a "Hot War" for approximately 5 years, starting in 2009 and ending in 2014.

My RPG book says the War Offically ended in 2011.
and as Far as Dates... the Master war started in Jan 2029, ends in June 2030. 18 months.
the Rt.com time line says the 1st robotech war started in Feb 2009, and ends in April 2011: 26 months.
Every sorce of Canon on Robotech says the War Ended in 2011. Reconstruction was the Period 2011-2014.

CavScout wrote:So you can’t substantiate the claim that they were REF. Ironically, you seem to be relying on the “lack of proof of absence” that this marine proponents do.

Nor can you state they aren't. Mexican standoff.

No doubt REF troops returned and engaged the Masters, but can we nail down that they arrived prior to the Masters Saga’s conclusion?

Only that they arrived and did battle with the Masters.

In my opinion, the Master’s War didn’t end with the destruction of the Masters flagship over the mounds. There were too many Masters vessels left and the first episode of the Invid Invasion indicates a long-drawn out battle.

We are in complete agreement. I think a lower-level war went on between the UEF and demobilized Masters forces well into the Invid Invasion (months at least), with all 3 sides blasting the snot out of each other. There probably were actions against surviving forces on those city-ships, guys holding out and topping off their mecha with whatever they could get out of the ships generators etc.

It is clear that there was very little contact and information sharing going on between the REF and ASC by the time of the Masters Saga.

Actually, all we can determine is that contact between the REF and UEF ceased when the Masters interdicted communications in the series. All else is rampant speculation.

Even when Earth herself is besieged, the REF all but tells the ASC they are on their own (Carpenter’s mission).

Like Anjay said, Reinhardt would have the authority to withhold rotating troops back if he were heavily engaged (which is implied by the Eulogy flashback). Its an interesting coincidence that General Reinhardt says 'No' but Admiral Hunter (according to Scott in Eulogy) says 'Yes'. Perhaps Reinhardt was removed from his position?

If Leonard was the supreme command of both the ASC and REF he could order REF forces to reinforce Earth, regardless of what the local REF commanders thought. I never get the impression that Leonard could do that.

I can only tell you what Anjay said.

Again, have anything to show they are REF forces?

Nothing to show they aren't. About the only thing even remotely available as far as animation is concerned is both the footage of the wrecked Ardennes-class Heavy Cruiser from Khyron's Revenge and The Sentinels Toy Fair Video that shows the REF with Southern Cross-style warships. Everything else is conjecture (based on Narrator comments).

Ooohh-RRAAHHH!!!

CavScout wrote:I think it is pretty clear that the ASC was limited to Earth based forces only. We see an extremely well equipped space force and do see forces operating deep within the solar system.

I can only tell you that Emerson says they were brought back from deep space.

deep space
–noun
space beyond the limits of the solar system.

If Leonard was the Supreme commander over the REF, no local REF commander would be able to over-ride his orders.

Like Anjay said, the order to not rotate back troops when heavily engaged can come up for review. All we know is that Reinhardt said 'No' and Hunter said 'Yes'.

But, if you are going to use it, you should be able to support it, no?

As I said, I can only tell you what Anjay has said.

Again, saying “you can’t prove me wrong” is not the same, nor carries the same weight of evidence, as being able to support your conclusion.

The Tv series says that REF forces came back and fought the Masters, including Colonel Wolfe, Lunk, Nader and The Old Coots.

Scott Samson wrote:

CavScout wrote:

Scott Samson wrote: It's cool to see this much attention applied to the Marines, be it fictional or otherwise.

That seems to be the biggest problem. People with a personal interest in a specific branch or service arm letting it cloud their ability to look at Robotech objectively.

No, really its about people nitpicking a topic to death of a fictional world of a GAME.

This no different than people upset over Star Wars and the Special Editions. Or you can go to real world scenarios - like the 2000 election.

Yes your right - it doesn't matter till someone has their panties in a twist. If the show specifically had Marines in it, and then was written out, how would you feel?

I feel the Army got jipped by Palladium and Harmony Gold, due to the RL great PR the Marines have. I don't want to say that I think the Marines are bad - they just have great PR department. I wish the Army had as good of one!

CavScout wrote:That’s fine but really doesn’t tell us who they were.

Yes.

All which would indicate that neither was subservient to Leonard.

Not if Leonard ordered Reinhardt to be sacked and replaced by Hunter.

Ok, but if you can’t back it, don’t use it. That’s all I am saying. It does seem silly to throw something out there and then when it is question shout out, “sorry, not my idea guys”.

No, I was merely stating that Anjay said it far better than I ever could. My arguing the point may not make the point as well as he did.

We both agree Masters fighting continued post the last TV episode of the Masters Saga.

Yes, though the war was 'officially over'.

CavScout wrote:I know I am wasting my time but, any evidence for this?

No evidence that it didn't happen.

Again, if Leonard was the supreme commander of both the ASC and REF forces, local REF forces would have to respond to and follow his orders. It wouldn't be optional based on your own local engagements.

Anjay said otherwise. I trust his judgement.

Aaaand with that, I'm locking this thread.