Laser Systems & Other Useless Skills?

[lather]

If you think that those inventions are absurd, that there are more reasonable inventions that any old Operator could be expected to come up with, let me know where you draw the line, and give some examples of the kinds of things that you think the average Operator should be able to invent.

A system to insert into EBAs that gets charged by the wearer walking; this can be used to power the heating and cooling system of the suit or it could be used for some other applications such as powering biomedical systems.

There's really too many to list.

But it's implied that they do it often enough to be "adventurers."

And if you're spending years or decades of your life in a lab, trying to create new inventions, you're not an adventurer.

So nowhere does it say an Operator must adventure all of his life and never spend significant chunks of time on personal pursuits or never settle into a community.

It's just implied that they adventure and doesn't even restrict the nature of adventure. So he may be seeking out components, information, other knowledgable people...all in the pursuit of doing something.

Furthermore, an invention need not require decades of life in a lab.

They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class.

Where in the books does it say this?

That part where it says they seek more knowledge about their craft - being mechanics and electronics. That's geeky.

No; that's inquisitive.

Irrelevant semantics.

Also the last paragraph (perhaps even the last sentence you read about the class) of the O.C.C. summary says "inventive".

lol
Yeah, they use it once, in describing the personality of the class that is overall described as "a super-mechanic and repairman" who "can fix just about anything that has gears and wires."

Well it is the last sentence and not the first. Typically I read the last sentence last and as the summation. They are described overall as repairmen and lovers of mechanics and electronics - you're not telling the whole story about the class, or you're just not getting the whole story. They fix stuff. They also invent stuff. Sometimes those fields mix.

Okay; name the other ways that characters can invent things in the game.
Then explain which of these methods the Operator uses.

By applying the character's skills and intelligence to invent something that solves a problem, something that provides entertainment, or something that improves knowledge and understanding of how something works. The Operator is free to use all of these.

As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.

You just let PCs invent whatever the hell they feel like, whenever they feel like it?

No and no. That would be silly.

So what were you saying there?

I'm saying that absurdity has no place in the choices players make for their characters.

[lather]

As opposed to computerless, information-relaying diodes?

They exist today. They'd exist in spades in Rifts.

Actually, those diodes relay information sent by computers. Good luck relaying anything through them without one.

It's a component for building equipment....equipment that uses the component.

You really, really need to look at the picture in my sig. It's describing my feelings perfectly as I read your post.

I know what you mean. Maybe you should stop.

[Mechanurgist]

I'm curious as to how many GMs actually call for characters to use the Laser Systems (Communications: Laser) skill.

For years I've wondered why several skills are even in the skills section (Math, Basic and Math, Advanced especially) since they really don't add anything to the game (at least the games I run/play), and only seem to add to the time it takes to create the character in the first place.

I don't know, maybe I've been exposed to too much d20 system (which has it's own problems), but I'm wondering if it is time to consider renovating Palladium's skills section.

Long past time, IMHO. In my games I rewrite the skills to create a short list of 20-30 skills that cover nearly everything. That way I can actually remember it without having to reference books all the time. I prefer broad skill categories, and things like Basic Math and Laser Communications are far too granular. I'd never require my players to roll for something like basic math or using a radio. I really don't see the fun in doing so.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you think that those inventions are absurd, that there are more reasonable inventions that any old Operator could be expected to come up with, let me know where you draw the line, and give some examples of the kinds of things that you think the average Operator should be able to invent.

A system to insert into EBAs that gets charged by the wearer walking; this can be used to power the heating and cooling system of the suit or it could be used for some other applications such as powering biomedical systems.

There's really too many to list.

That's the kind of thing I assumed you were thinking about.
Nets out the same.

Why don't we have MDC EBA today?
Not because nobody wants to invent it, but because wanting to invent something doesn't mean you CAN invent it.
Even if you're an engineer.

But it's implied that they do it often enough to be "adventurers."

And if you're spending years or decades of your life in a lab, trying to create new inventions, you're not an adventurer.

So nowhere does it say an Operator must adventure all of his life and never spend significant chunks of time on personal pursuits or never settle into a community.

True enough.
And if an Operator wanted to retire from adventuring, and dedicate his life to a new invention, then he could have a chance at succeeding.

Which is far cry from invention being a key part of the class.

They are also geeky. Geeks are inventive in their drive to gain more and deeper understanding of their craft. "Inventive" is also one of the summarising adjectives for the class.

Where in the books does it say this?

That part where it says they seek more knowledge about their craft - being mechanics and electronics. That's geeky.

No; that's inquisitive.

Irrelevant semantics.

I agree, actually.
Your whole "Operators = geeks = inventive = inventors" should have been rightfully dismissed without comment, instead of focussing on the words you were attempting to use.
My bad.

Also the last paragraph (perhaps even the last sentence you read about the class) of the O.C.C. summary says "inventive".

lol
Yeah, they use it once, in describing the personality of the class that is overall described as "a super-mechanic and repairman" who "can fix just about anything that has gears and wires."

Well it is the last sentence and not the first. Typically I read the last sentence last and as the summation. They are described overall as repairmen and lovers of mechanics and electronics - you're not telling the whole story about the class, or you're just not getting the whole story. They fix stuff. They also invent stuff. Sometimes those fields mix.

No, they don't invent stuff.
They might be inventive in their personality, but that doesn't make them inventors.

That's why there's nothing in the class description that describes them inventing anything.

Okay; name the other ways that characters can invent things in the game.
Then explain which of these methods the Operator uses.

By applying the character's skills and intelligence to invent something that solves a problem, something that provides entertainment, or something that improves knowledge and understanding of how something works. The Operator is free to use all of these.

In other words, there are none.
Just people making stuff up that they think would be cool.
No actual rules for it anywhere.

As for capability to invent; Operators have the same capability has Vagabonds do: 100%. This is a choice the Player makes about the Character.

You just let PCs invent whatever the hell they feel like, whenever they feel like it?

No and no. That would be silly.

So what were you saying there?

I'm saying that absurdity has no place in the choices players make for their characters.

Odd that I got the opposite meaning from your post.

[The Beast]

Cyberpunk's GM Guide had some guidelines for players inventing stuff. It was basicly 4 levels. I'll paraphrase here:

0 = Exsiting tech put to a new use. Every operator should be able to do that.

1 = A mod, refinement, or improvement of exsisting tech. Every operator worth his salt should be able to do that. That book points out that really drastic changes should require hours of R&D, and require serious effort from the PC.

2 = New tech for an exsiting use. This is something like inventing a railgun (we already have guns). The book recomends that not only should PCs not be able to come up with this kind of stuff (unless they're major geniuses and devote a good chunk of their lives to it), but even GMs (who control all the government & corporations) should stay away from using this level of tech.

3 = New tech for a new idea. This is inventing stuff like fire, the wheel, electric power, the Bomb. Players should never come up with this stuff, and neither should GMs.

Applying this to Rifts Earth, the Golden Age of Man would have seen a fair amount of stuff from level 2 (Glitter Boys, SAMAS, energy weapons, cybernetics), lots of stuff from the first two levels, and at least one thing from level 3 (the Japanese scientists who rediscovered PPE and activated a tech-based dimensional portal on Dec 23, 2098).

[Jesterzzn]

In my mind McGuyver was the ultimate Operator...and if you want to suggest he didn't invent things (speaking of situations that require a skill roll...) you better be ready to fight, cause them fight'n words.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I want to try and clear up some confusion (because I think a part of this conversation is a grammar issue at this point). First, I'll state MacGuyver didn't invent things. He built things from very unusual parts (more of a Jury-Rig skill). This, in its very core, is where the problem I believe i coming in.

1) I believe what lather (and others who are saying "invent") really mean is that they can build existing ideas and technology from scratch. So if they find the blue prints, guidelines, taught how a laser communication device works (the skill) they can build one from already existing parts. They're not "inventing" the device, they're building it from things available (such as the MacGuyver reference).

2) What Killer Cyborg and others are referring to is actually inventing things. This is coming up with entirely new things, or a drastic alteration to already existing things (making a helicopter submarine, don't ask where I got that reference from ) is something an operator should not be able to do.

I believe this is the heart of the difference here. And if I am misunderstanding anything then my apologies. Individual parties who see my break down as inaccurate may feel free to say so. Hopefully that helped some. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Jesterzzn]

First, I'll state MacGuyver didn't invent things. He built things from very unusual parts (more of a Jury-Rig skill). This, in its very core, is where the problem I believe i coming in.

No, the only problem is in taking this particular semantics debate seriously.

[The Beast]

Where's my popcorn?

[lather]

Just people making stuff up that they think would be cool.

That's how invention usually works.

And since there's nothing like building something with his own hands for an Operator...they probably build things they think are cool.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just people making stuff up that they think would be cool.

That's how invention usually works.

No, that's how daydreaming and mental masturbation usually works.
Invention requires real-world effort and results.

And since there's nothing like building something with his own hands for an Operator...they probably build things they think are cool.

Sure, they build things.
They don't invent them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyberpunk's GM Guide had some guidelines for players inventing stuff. It was basicly 4 levels. I'll paraphrase here:

0 = Exsiting tech put to a new use. Every operator should be able to do that.

Agreed.

1 = A mod, refinement, or improvement of exsisting tech. Every operator worth his salt should be able to do that. That book points out that really drastic changes should require hours of R&D, and require serious effort from the PC.

Depends.
In some cases, I think that the existing tech is going to be as good as possible, especially where high-end weapons are concerned.

2 = New tech for an exsiting use. This is something like inventing a railgun (we already have guns). The book recomends that not only should PCs not be able to come up with this kind of stuff (unless they're major geniuses and devote a good chunk of their lives to it), but even GMs (who control all the government & corporations) should stay away from using this level of tech.

3 = New tech for a new idea. This is inventing stuff like fire, the wheel, electric power, the Bomb. Players should never come up with this stuff, and neither should GMs.

Exactly.
Operators can do level 0 stuff, maybe level 1 stuff depending, but NOT level 2 stuff, not as a rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I want to try and clear up some confusion (because I think a part of this conversation is a grammar issue at this point). First, I'll state MacGuyver didn't invent things. He built things from very unusual parts (more of a Jury-Rig skill). This, in its very core, is where the problem I believe i coming in.

1) I believe what lather (and others who are saying "invent") really mean is that they can build existing ideas and technology from scratch. So if they find the blue prints, guidelines, taught how a laser communication device works (the skill) they can build one from already existing parts. They're not "inventing" the device, they're building it from things available (such as the MacGuyver reference).

2) What Killer Cyborg and others are referring to is actually inventing things. This is coming up with entirely new things, or a drastic alteration to already existing things (making a helicopter submarine, don't ask where I got that reference from ) is something an operator should not be able to do.

I believe this is the heart of the difference here. And if I am misunderstanding anything then my apologies. Individual parties who see my break down as inaccurate may feel free to say so. Hopefully that helped some. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

I tend to think that lather and myself are both using that second definition.
Either way, you got me right.

[lather]

Just people making stuff up that they think would be cool.

That's how invention usually works.

No, that's how daydreaming and mental masturbation usually works.
Invention requires real-world effort and results.

Yes and the idea is the first part of inventing; it's generally the first part of any effort.

Unless they're accidental inventions, which happen.

However, that's not the kind of invention you're talking about.

Sure, they build things.
They don't invent them.

Except when they do.

Anyway, I'm done with your reindeer games. Sorry, Beast, I hope you didn't get settled.

[The Beast]

Anyway, I'm done with your reindeer games. Sorry, Beast, I hope you didn't get settled.

Huh? You lost me here. If anything I'm closer to agreeing with KC than anyone else is...

[Killer Cyborg]

Just people making stuff up that they think would be cool.

That's how invention usually works.

No, that's how daydreaming and mental masturbation usually works.
Invention requires real-world effort and results.

Yes and the idea is the first part of inventing; it's generally the first part of any effort.

I never said that Operators couldn't dream.
It takes more steps than that one in order to invent.

Sure, they build things.
They don't invent them.

Except when they do.

And when exactly would that be?
Book and page number...?

No...?

Anyway, I'm done with your reindeer games.

Ha!
You sleigh me!

[Natasha]

Anyway, I'm done with your reindeer games. Sorry, Beast, I hope you didn't get settled.

Huh? You lost me here. If anything I'm closer to agreeing with KC than anyone else is...

Probably something about your popcorn comment. I'm just guessing though.

[lather]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Meanwhile...

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

Meanwhile...

an insignificant dwarf waddles by.

[Vrykolas2k]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Meanwhile...

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

Meanwhile...

an insignificant dwarf waddles by.

Well said.

[Dog_O_War]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

Meanwhile...

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

First; do gravity-powered air conditioning systems exist already?
If yes, then you are not inventing, but adapting - this is what we call designing, which I already mentioned. As well, you're pulling a Homer Simpson here; you're doing something that is akin to adding a clock to a toothbrush. This is not something that requires an inventor, or even someone with all the necessary skills to invent both a clock and a toothbrush (or in the above case, a gravity-powered air conditioning system and a bullet-proof vest).

If no, then go ahead. The GM will continue the game as you spend years toiling with the theory of such a device, as this is what inventors do; they take theory and make it fact.

Besides this, the difficulty here isn't that there are no rules for inventing things, it's that you don't seem to understand what invention actually entails. That's years of experiments, tests, and refinements to create a working design. Once theory has become fact, then people like Operators can adapt and modify these things. Remember; an engineer is only taught things that have been tested, not given the means to create things that have not. That is an entirely different ballgame here.

[dark brandon]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

I think you're being overly semantic on this part. I'd say Wilderness Survival roll would allow someone to know how to build an igloo, especially if the character is from up north...

[Dog_O_War]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

I think you're being overly semantic on this part. I'd say Wilderness Survival roll would allow someone to know how to build an igloo, especially if the character is from up north...

I too would say so, but as in the example presented - he has the GM saying "no" arbitrarily, basically because (I'd assume) he didn't know better. Either way, it does take hours and is not something you do "for the night". The last blurb is the best answer, as the player (if he knew how long it actually takes to build an igloo) would've known this. And should've said this. Semantics or no, the situation was skewed - and that is what I was pointing out.

[lather]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

I wonder how igloos get built if building them means you're going to freeze to death before finishing. Interesting. Perhaps you're just making **** up about the time of day and about the PC's intentions for the igloo?

To say nothing of the semantics you're piling onto the scenario already pointed out.

If no, then go ahead. The GM will continue the game as you spend years toiling with the theory of such a device, as this is what inventors do; they take theory and make it fact.

The theory is really simple. The construction is, as far as I know, also simple. I've never actually seen it. But in a world of fireballs....

Besides this, the difficulty here isn't that there are no rules for inventing things, it's that you don't seem to understand what invention actually entails. That's years of experiments, tests, and refinements to create a working design.

Book and page number?

[Vrykolas2k]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

Meanwhile...

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

First; do gravity-powered air conditioning systems exist already?
If yes, then you are not inventing, but adapting - this is what we call designing, which I already mentioned. As well, you're pulling a Homer Simpson here; you're doing something that is akin to adding a clock to a toothbrush. This is not something that requires an inventor, or even someone with all the necessary skills to invent both a clock and a toothbrush (or in the above case, a gravity-powered air conditioning system and a bullet-proof vest).

If no, then go ahead. The GM will continue the game as you spend years toiling with the theory of such a device, as this is what inventors do; they take theory and make it fact.

Besides this, the difficulty here isn't that there are no rules for inventing things, it's that you don't seem to understand what invention actually entails. That's years of experiments, tests, and refinements to create a working design. Once theory has become fact, then people like Operators can adapt and modify these things. Remember; an engineer is only taught things that have been tested, not given the means to create things that have not. That is an entirely different ballgame here.

And I'm Alaskan, and happen to know how long it takes to build a small survival igloo (not one of those large, all-winter affairs).
It can be done "for the night".

[Killer Cyborg]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Igloo construction would fall under Wilderness Survival.
Unless, of course, your character was the first one to ever build one.
Then he'd need an ability that would let him invent new kinds of buildings.

Meanwhile...

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

I'd be pretty surprised if a character had all the necessary skills for inventing that.

Either way, it's not about the skills. Invention is a class ability.

[Dog_O_War]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Wrong. first of all, it takes hours to build an igloo (I know, I'm Canadian). This means that you're going to freeze to death before you even "build it for the night". Second of all, you have the GM going "no" arbitrarily because he doesn't know better.
Third, the GM actually offers the proper solution to this problem; dig a hole.

I wonder how igloos get built if building them means you're going to freeze to death before finishing. Interesting. Perhaps you're just making **** up about the time of day and about the PC's intentions for the igloo?

The First Nations (Inuit for reference) take a few hours during the day to construct an igloo. This is because there is a distinct lack of light (not that this is a problem with modern technology). But the fact that you are "building one for the night" assumes that you've travelled/hunted all day, and are looking to rest.
The difference between day-time arctic weather and night-time arctic weather can be as severe as a 30 degree celcius drop; this means that you're going from weather that your coat protects against to weather your coat doesn't protect against - because it takes hours to build one and you have very limited light during the days up there.

For reference, instead of stating that I don't know what I'm talking about, do some research yourself instead of laying out baseless and unsupported accusations.

To say nothing of the semantics you're piling onto the scenario already pointed out.

The "semantics" of this scenario are listed for reference that you don't know what you're talking about. See, I could say "welp I'ma construct a two-story house for the night, because I have trades X, Y, and Z" and it wouldn't be unreasonable for the GM to say "impossible - you clearly don't know how long or tough it is to build a house".

This is what I'm saying to you here, and now. That's the "semantics" of it.

If no, then go ahead. The GM will continue the game as you spend years toiling with the theory of such a device, as this is what inventors do; they take theory and make it fact.

The theory is really simple. The construction is, as far as I know, also simple. I've never actually seen it. But in a world of fireballs....

Like the underpants gnomes of Southpark, you're missing a step here.
"step one: get underwear."
"step three:.....Profit!"

Yeah, it don't work that way. I'll fill you in on your missing step here;
Step one: Theorize the invention.
Step two: Figure out the mechanics, math, and science of the theory.
Step three: Construct the invention.

Without performing step two, you cannot achieve step three.

Besides this, the difficulty here isn't that there are no rules for inventing things, it's that you don't seem to understand what invention actually entails. That's years of experiments, tests, and refinements to create a working design.

Book and page number?

There are none.
Because invention is entirely up to the GM whether you can or cannot.
So when you say that "I have all the relevant skills", I offer that instead you show me where the relevant skills for invention are.

[Dog_O_War]

And I'm Alaskan, and happen to know how long it takes to build a small survival igloo (not one of those large, all-winter affairs).
It can be done "for the night".

Really now?

So how long does it take to construct one? And (more pointedly) how different is it than say..... a hole?

[lather]

And I'm Alaskan, and happen to know how long it takes to build a small survival igloo (not one of those large, all-winter affairs).
It can be done "for the night".

Really now?

So how long does it take to construct one? And (more pointedly) how different is it than say..... a hole?

A hole has no cover.
So it'd be a covered hole.
Amazingly, though, apparently a character couldn't come up with that on his own.

[lather]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Igloo construction would fall under Wilderness Survival.
Unless, of course, your character was the first one to ever build one.
Then he'd need an ability that would let him invent new kinds of buildings.

I can't keep up with the absurdity you're throwing up.

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

I'd be pretty surprised if a character had all the necessary skills for inventing that.

Apparently.
Since an Operator has all the necessary skills for inventing that. Being a mechanical engineer of CS-level, being an electrical engineeer of CS-level, he has everything he needs, I'll go ahead and consider you surprised.

Either way, it's not about the skills. Invention is a class ability.

Invention is a process, it's not an ability.

[Dog_O_War]

And I'm Alaskan, and happen to know how long it takes to build a small survival igloo (not one of those large, all-winter affairs).
It can be done "for the night".

Really now?

So how long does it take to construct one? And (more pointedly) how different is it than say..... a hole?

A hole has no cover.
So it'd be a covered hole.
Amazingly, though, apparently a character couldn't come up with that on his own.

Also, /facepalm (as I bet you still haven't looked at the picture in my sig).

[Killer Cyborg]

PC: I'll construct an igloo for the night.
GM: You can't.
PC: I can't use my Wilderness Survival skill?
GM: Book and page number for igloo construction? No? Perhaps you'd like to dig a hole instead?

Igloo construction would fall under Wilderness Survival.
Unless, of course, your character was the first one to ever build one.
Then he'd need an ability that would let him invent new kinds of buildings.

I can't keep up with the absurdity you're throwing up.

Well, take your time.
When you do catch up, you can let me know what you think is absurd about that.

PC: I'd like to construct a gravity powered air conditioning system for my bullet proof vest.
GM: You can't.
PC: I have all the necessary skills, don't I?
GM: Yes, but you don't you have a book and page number for invention do you? Didn't think so. You can roll on your Mechanical Engineer skill to see if you build a see-saw though. How does that sound instead?

I'd be pretty surprised if a character had all the necessary skills for inventing that.

Apparently.
Since an Operator has all the necessary skills for inventing that. Being a mechanical engineer of CS-level, being an electrical engineeer of CS-level, he has everything he needs, I'll go ahead and consider you surprised.

All I'm getting from this is that:
a) You think that the CS has gravity-powered A/C for their armor.
b) You think that you can invent something that already exists in mass use.

Either way, it's not about the skills. Invention is a class ability.

Invention is a process, it's not an ability.

It's both.
Versatile word.

[Prysus]

Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.

Greetings and Salutations. This was early last page, but I must admit I'm curious: Which book(s) and class(es)? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious to read it (because of this thread, but it may be useful in a story arc for an upcomng game that I run as well). Thank you for your time and patience, and appreciate any help. Please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.

Greetings and Salutations. This was early last page, but I must admit I'm curious: Which book(s) and class(es)? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious to read it (because of this thread, but it may be useful in a story arc for an upcomng game that I run as well). Thank you for your time and patience, and appreciate any help. Please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys.

I might have actually misspoken there.

Ninjas & Superspies has rules for Gizmoteers constructing various things, but contrary to my memory there is nothing there about actually inventing new things. Closest would be the hacker gizmoteers ability to write their own viruses/programs.
Apparently, even Gizmoteers don't have rules for making brand new inventions.


Heroes Unlimited might have something, but I can't find my book.

[lather]

And I'm Alaskan, and happen to know how long it takes to build a small survival igloo (not one of those large, all-winter affairs).
It can be done "for the night".

Really now?

So how long does it take to construct one? And (more pointedly) how different is it than say..... a hole?

A hole has no cover.
So it'd be a covered hole.
Amazingly, though, apparently a character couldn't come up with that on his own.

Also, /facepalm (as I bet you still haven't looked at the picture in my sig).

I did.
And then I answered your question.

[lather]

there is nothing there about actually inventing new things.

That's because the GM doesn't need rules to handle when PCs invent things. That's because the GM doesn't need rules for every thing a PC undertakes. Just some common sense will get the GM through.

[Killer Cyborg]

there is nothing there about actually inventing new things.

That's because the GM doesn't need rules to handle when PCs invent things. That's because the GM doesn't need rules for every thing a PC undertakes. Just some common sense will get the GM through.

No, it's because they're not supposed to invent new things.

If you can find anything in the books that says that they ARE, then present it.

If not, then you're just making assumptions out of thin air.

[lather]

That totally ignores the fact that any character can invent. That totally ignores the fact that engineers tinker and invent. That totally ignores the fact that anybody who is as passionate about their craft is going to invent within their craft.

[Killer Cyborg]

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Only if you assume that the only people who exist in the world fall into those specific OCCs described, and that nothing ever happens due to chance or circumstances beyond the control of the individual.

[lather]

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Only if you assume that the only people who exist in the world fall into those specific OCCs described, and that nothing ever happens due to chance or circumstances beyond the control of the individual.

False dichotomy.

[Vrykolas2k]

Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.

Greetings and Salutations. This was early last page, but I must admit I'm curious: Which book(s) and class(es)? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious to read it (because of this thread, but it may be useful in a story arc for an upcomng game that I run as well). Thank you for your time and patience, and appreciate any help. Please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys.

I might have actually misspoken there.

Ninjas & Superspies has rules for Gizmoteers constructing various things, but contrary to my memory there is nothing there about actually inventing new things. Closest would be the hacker gizmoteers ability to write their own viruses/programs.
Apparently, even Gizmoteers don't have rules for making brand new inventions.


Heroes Unlimited might have something, but I can't find my book.

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Zing!!!

[Killer Cyborg]

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Only if you assume that the only people who exist in the world fall into those specific OCCs described, and that nothing ever happens due to chance or circumstances beyond the control of the individual.

False dichotomy.

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Killer Cyborg]

Tell that to Palladium.
There are classes in the Megaverse that include rules for inventing things.
Operators are not one of them.

Greetings and Salutations. This was early last page, but I must admit I'm curious: Which book(s) and class(es)? I'm not doubting you, but I am curious to read it (because of this thread, but it may be useful in a story arc for an upcomng game that I run as well). Thank you for your time and patience, and appreciate any help. Please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys.

I might have actually misspoken there.

Ninjas & Superspies has rules for Gizmoteers constructing various things, but contrary to my memory there is nothing there about actually inventing new things. Closest would be the hacker gizmoteers ability to write their own viruses/programs.
Apparently, even Gizmoteers don't have rules for making brand new inventions.


Heroes Unlimited might have something, but I can't find my book.

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Zing!!!

I assume that noise was my point flying right past her...?

[Vrykolas2k]

More like her point nailing you.
Just because there isn't a rule in the book for it doesn't mean a character can't do it.

[Killer Cyborg]

More like her point nailing you.
Just because there isn't a rule in the book for it doesn't mean a character can't do it.

Never said that it always did mean that.
Hence the whoosh noise.

But yeah... way to nail me on something that I never said.

As a rebuttal, I'll disprove her claim that puppets only speak latin.
That'll show her!

[Killer Cyborg]

That totally ignores the fact that any character can invent. That totally ignores the fact that engineers tinker and invent.

Any character can do anything the GM allows them to.
This does not mean that the character class is supposed to do it.
You want to have your operator invent a new power source, or a vagabond come up with the cure for cancer, that certainly can happen.
Just don't pretend that it's intended for it to be the norm for the class.

That totally ignores the fact that anybody who is as passionate about their craft is going to invent within their craft.

Yeah, I tend to ignore fact that aren't facts.

[lather]

That totally ignores the fact that any character can invent. That totally ignores the fact that engineers tinker and invent.

Any character can do anything the GM allows them to.
This does not mean that the character class is supposed to do it.
You want to have your operator invent a new power source, or a vagabond come up with the cure for cancer, that certainly can happen.
Just don't pretend that it's intended for it to be the norm for the class.

If it falls within their craft of electrical and mechanical engineering, it's intended for Operators.

That new power source may have been the result of a necessary repair. So might that gravity powered air conditioner. Or it might have been the result of a idea that came to him while working on something else - such as while working on some EBA and getting the bright idea that using the energy generated by walking, then a gravity powered air conditioner is effectively free energy. He has the skills and the geeky mind to pursue the invention. Operators are eccentric and they are at their core inventive engineers; it this trait which has gained them the knowledge to fix or modify just about anything. Theirs is a knowledge that goes beyond reading technical manuals. Their pursuit of knowledge and inventive drives enables them to be masters of their craft. It is that inventive drive that makes them masters of their craft.

That totally ignores the fact that anybody who is as passionate about their craft is going to invent within their craft.

Yeah, I tend to ignore fact that aren't facts.

And this just ignores reality.

For people like Operators are leaps and bounds ahead of the average engineer in skill and geekyness. To expand your knowledge and understanding you tinker and play around with inventions that may or may not fail. You tinker and play around with inventions to escape the monotony of settling into your craft. Writers, artists, musicians, engineers, it doesn't really matter who you are, you just have to have geeky passion. Which Operators have in spades.

So, yea, invention is a part of the Operator class.

[Killer Cyborg]

That totally ignores the fact that any character can invent. That totally ignores the fact that engineers tinker and invent.

Any character can do anything the GM allows them to.
This does not mean that the character class is supposed to do it.
You want to have your operator invent a new power source, or a vagabond come up with the cure for cancer, that certainly can happen.
Just don't pretend that it's intended for it to be the norm for the class.

If it falls within their craft of electrical and mechanical engineering, it's intended for Operators.

Although those skills could be used for invention, if invention is within your capability, it doesn't fall under those skills.
Those skills are neither a prerequisite for nor a guarantee of the ability to invent.

That new power source may have been the result of a necessary repair. So might that gravity powered air conditioner. Or it might have been the result of a idea that came to him while working on something else - such as while working on some EBA and getting the bright idea that using the energy generated by walking, then a gravity powered air conditioner is effectively free energy. He has the skills and the geeky mind to pursue the invention. Operators are eccentric and they are at their core inventive engineers; it this trait which has gained them the knowledge to fix or modify just about anything. Theirs is a knowledge that goes beyond reading technical manuals. Their pursuit of knowledge and inventive drives enables them to be masters of their craft. It is that inventive drive that makes them masters of their craft.

I understand how you see things.
I'm just pointing out that you are wrong.

For people like Operators are leaps and bounds ahead of the average engineer in skill and geekyness.

Yup.
That's what makes them superior repair-men.

To expand your knowledge and understanding you tinker and play around with inventions that may or may not fail. You tinker and play around with inventions to escape the monotony of settling into your craft. Writers, artists, musicians, engineers, it doesn't really matter who you are, you just have to have geeky passion. Which Operators have in spades.

So, yea, invention is a part of the Operator class.

No, it's not.
Invention is not part of geekiness or geeky passion, nor of the desire to create.
A person can be the biggest geek in the world, and be passionately driven to create, dedicate his/her entire live to his passion, and STILL not invent anything new.
Invention is an event, not an ability, and it's an event you can't just will to happen.
For every one new invention, there are countless failures from people who are just as qualified on paper, and who have just as much drive or more.

[lather]

the ability to invent.

Invention is an event, not an ability, and it's an event you can't just will to happen.

Hm. You're contradicting yourself. Also, I never said it was something that a PC just wills to happen.

Invention is not part of geekiness or geeky passion, nor of the desire to create.

Yes; of course, I never said it is. I said that it's the result.

A person can be the biggest geek in the world, and be passionately driven to create, dedicate his/her entire live to his passion, and STILL not invent anything new.

I never said they will invent anything, just that they'd want to and try to.

For every one new invention, there are countless failures from people who are just as qualified on paper, and who have just as much drive or more.

Irrelevant.

[Dog_O_War]

the ability to invent.

Invention is an event, not an ability, and it's an event you can't just will to happen.

Hm. You're contradicting yourself. Also, I never said it was something that a PC just wills to happen.

Semantics.

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Zing!!!

Wow - how completely out of context, not to mention a skewed example that is nothing more than spam. And then we've got El'zinger here chiming in like a point was made.[/rude]

The book doesn't list rules for invention - that does not mean invention is impossible for the NPC's or for the GM. It just means that there are no rules for the PCs to use to invent stuff. This makes it entirely a GM/PC collaboration on the subject. Not a "I'm the PC so I can do whatever I want!" enterprise.

[Vrykolas2k]

the ability to invent.

Invention is an event, not an ability, and it's an event you can't just will to happen.

Hm. You're contradicting yourself. Also, I never said it was something that a PC just wills to happen.

Semantics.

That just means everyone is dreaming about these wonderful technologies, while they're actually huddled around a fire in a cave.
Since no-one can invent anything. There aren't rules for it.
That also means they don't know how to use flint for spears or arrows.
Not that the bow exists since it had to be invented.

Zing!!!

Wow - how completely out of context, not to mention a skewed example that is nothing more than spam. And then we've got El'zinger here chiming in like a point was made.[/rude]

The book doesn't list rules for invention - that does not mean invention is impossible for the NPC's or for the GM. It just means that there are no rules for the PCs to use to invent stuff. This makes it entirely a GM/PC collaboration on the subject. Not a "I'm the PC so I can do whatever I want!" enterprise.

The point, as I read it, is that since there are no rules for invention, nothing gets invented in the game, at least according to you and KC.
"I just came up with a great idea for my Operator to try and research/invent..."
"No. There are no rules governing your OCC being able to invent anything."
But I'll be watching your posts carefully from now on to see if you do anything similar to her.
In fact, I think I see a couple of "spams" from you in this very thread... being somewhat skewed in and of themselves (and in at least one instance being pretty close to an actual personal attack)...
Hell, anyone who's ever watched the show Star Trek knows Scotty, who's basically an Operator, invents something to keep the Enterprise going on a fairly regular basis. He uses his electrical/mechanical engineer skills in unorthodox ways in nearly every episode. I think people who play their Operators in a similar way need an xp award, not a "No, your OCC can't do that, you need to be a... well, the OCC doesn't seem to exist."
I'd just have them roll two or three times, and if all two or three rolls were successful, possibly at negatives depending on the situation, then the device works more or less as it should, and can probably be improved upon later.