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Ninjabunny wrote:Radar detects anything it can bounce off of and give a return. Birds can be detected as well. Radar comes back to the Radar operator as a bunch of static and mess. To see through this mess the operator ignores small things that are classified as not being aircraft or missiles. Aircraft give off a bigger radar signature and move at a fast speed and missiles move at very high speeds. Anything that does not match this is not tracked. That is how the F-22 Raptor is stealthy. It can be tracked on radar but at the size of a bird. If you were to try to track a F-22 then you would have to track every bird in the sky which would be ludicrous

It's a good thing we use computers for that now rather than have some poor kid staring at the screen trying to make sense of it.

Imagine what it could do with "super" tech!

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Radar detects anything it can bounce off of and give a return. Birds can be detected as well. Radar comes back to the Radar operator as a bunch of static and mess. To see through this mess the operator ignores small things that are classified as not being aircraft or missiles. Aircraft give off a bigger radar signature and move at a fast speed and missiles move at very high speeds. Anything that does not match this is not tracked. That is how the F-22 Raptor is stealthy. It can be tracked on radar but at the size of a bird. If you were to try to track a F-22 then you would have to track every bird in the sky which would be ludicrous

It's a good thing we use computers for that now rather than have some poor kid staring at the screen trying to make sense of it.

Imagine what it could do with "super" tech!

--flatline

As a brief note, radar and its ability to detect human-sized targets is more suited to another thread (and has also been bitterly fought over if memory serves) rather than this one.

Small note, just as sensors and sensory equipment gets better as years go by, so does technology to twart it. In the case of Chutes, we have fabrics now that are specially designed to give minimal return.

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Radar detects anything it can bounce off of and give a return. Birds can be detected as well. Radar comes back to the Radar operator as a bunch of static and mess. To see through this mess the operator ignores small things that are classified as not being aircraft or missiles. Aircraft give off a bigger radar signature and move at a fast speed and missiles move at very high speeds. Anything that does not match this is not tracked. That is how the F-22 Raptor is stealthy. It can be tracked on radar but at the size of a bird. If you were to try to track a F-22 then you would have to track every bird in the sky which would be ludicrous

It's a good thing we use computers for that now rather than have some poor kid staring at the screen trying to make sense of it.

Imagine what it could do with "super" tech!

--flatline

Quite a bit. I'm going to presume they can read energy signatures down to being able to identify the propulsion system, the ability to function despite interference from Ley Lines and other natural/supernatural electrical interference. I'm willing to bet that with an exceptionally alert A.I. you could even identify potential drop targets (such as guys with wing-suits and parachutes) but without that I'm thinking that drops are still a valid tactical approach used by militaries and spies the world over. The fact is that the Paratrooper O.C.C. does exist and so does the parachuting skill (in R:UE) so clearly they still teach people to use it and there would be reason. The argument isnt that the technology cannot detect them, its that it cannot detect them with any accuracy and without an energy signature the computer is just going to identify it as a standard non-combatant... unless possibly the creature's biological signs are identified as a hostile D-Bee (Gargoyle, Dragon, etc) and even then they are considerably large targets, easy to identify and to even do that the combat computer needs to be a robot or A.I. or that guy at the radar has to THINK to bother scanning it--and keep in mind the guy is taught that anything between X and Y is "just a bird." I'll give technology a LOT of credit in Rifts, I'll remind people that we cannot REALLY understand how advanced it is because they are so far beyond us BUT the exception is radar and radio which are specifically noted as being used because the magical energy around the earth from the Ley Lines screws with anything more advanced. As such, its safe to assume that in the case of radio and other broadcasting systems that they're not that much more advanced than us--BECAUSE they cannot be even though the technology exists.

Neurotic Cupcake wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Yes I am an idiot and I have no idea what I am talking about. I also just wander around talking about things I have no idea about because I think its entertaining to look stupid. So.................... if I was to look at the current stealth bomber it would be made out of "other" and not plastic... because I mean last I heard with the whole. Nevermind. I'm a moron who knows nothing about military technology.

If you don't want people pointing out that the things you say aren't very bright, it's usually a good idea to make sure that you actually do know what you're talking about. Use sarcasm and hyperbole all you like, but that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Also Cupcape "Stealth aircraft are aircraft that use stealth technology to avoid detection through the experimental use of Cellon plastic transparent covering material.

Unlike you, I'm well aware. But that's not what you said. You said cloth and plastic make you invisible to radar. That was beyond ignorant. Beyond.

But I am so ******* stupid that I just forgot that I dont know anything about what I am saying. Oh man how embarrassing.

Yes it is.

Not to butt in or be rude or anything, because I think this argument is absolutely delightful...but it's hitting to close to home. I'm not trying to take over for the mods, but if you all aren't more careful this thread is going to get locked down. It's getting a little flamey...

Now back to buisness, continue the argument I kind of want to see where these points are leading too in terms of the deadliest gunman...

Ninjabunny wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Neurotic Cupcake wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Yes I am an idiot and I have no idea what I am talking about. I also just wander around talking about things I have no idea about because I think its entertaining to look stupid. So.................... if I was to look at the current stealth bomber it would be made out of "other" and not plastic... because I mean last I heard with the whole. Nevermind. I'm a moron who knows nothing about military technology.

If you don't want people pointing out that the things you say aren't very bright, it's usually a good idea to make sure that you actually do know what you're talking about. Use sarcasm and hyperbole all you like, but that was an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Also Cupcape "Stealth aircraft are aircraft that use stealth technology to avoid detection through the experimental use of Cellon plastic transparent covering material.

Unlike you, I'm well aware. But that's not what you said. You said cloth and plastic make you invisible to radar. That was beyond ignorant. Beyond.

But I am so ******* stupid that I just forgot that I dont know anything about what I am saying. Oh man how embarrassing.

Yes it is.

Not to butt in or be rude or anything, because I think this argument is absolutely delightful...but it's hitting to close to home. I'm not trying to take over for the mods, but if you all aren't more careful this thread is going to get locked down. It's getting a little flamey...

Now back to buisness, continue the argument I kind of want to see where these points are leading too in terms of the deadliest gunman...

It is leading no where in that area, but a great debate on the topic of radar

Yeah, I was hoping a subtle reminder would help the thread not get locked down tighter than a Nun on Sunday.

Ah well, it was a good thread while it lasted.

*funeral dirge in the background*

*tear* It brought...so many *choke* so much joy. *Sob* I'm just lucky...to...to...to have met it! *Hysterical tears and sobbing uncontrollably*

Ninjabunny wrote:

flatline wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Radar detects anything it can bounce off of and give a return. Birds can be detected as well. Radar comes back to the Radar operator as a bunch of static and mess. To see through this mess the operator ignores small things that are classified as not being aircraft or missiles. Aircraft give off a bigger radar signature and move at a fast speed and missiles move at very high speeds. Anything that does not match this is not tracked. That is how the F-22 Raptor is stealthy. It can be tracked on radar but at the size of a bird. If you were to try to track a F-22 then you would have to track every bird in the sky which would be ludicrous

It's a good thing we use computers for that now rather than have some poor kid staring at the screen trying to make sense of it.

Imagine what it could do with "super" tech!

--flatline

humans still check what the computer is tracking and humans program it, Honestly do you think airports tell there computers to track every bird sized object?

The FAA isn't concerned about mages flying above the tree line. In Rifts Earth, you do have to worry about something like that and so it would be mind bogglingly stupid to filter out such returns.

Come on flatline, this is just a post to argue.

If someone posts something that I know to be demonstrably wrong, I will reply (time and energy permitting).

--flatline

Ninjabunny wrote:Yeah don't count on that, this thread has already gone well beyond gunmen

NEVER!!

Allow me to bring this full circle...

INTRODUCING...

A para-shooting (get it) Assassin O.C.C. (Mercenaries) with a long range (hand held, likely the Triax suitcase one) sniper rifle (souped-up range from his operator buddy) a fully functional scope!

Aerial view means that he doesnt have to deal with cover and according to the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. he gets +20% to his "prowl" because people don't look up.
So in the great battle, down he comes, unseen, snipe attack, head-shot (counts as Deathblow directly to HP with an M.D. weapon).

Hows that?

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Yeah don't count on that, this thread has already gone well beyond gunmen

NEVER!!

Allow me to bring this full circle...

INTRODUCING...

A para-shooting (get it) Assassin O.C.C. (Mercenaries) with a long range (hand held, likely the Triax suitcase one) sniper rifle (souped-up range from his operator buddy) a fully functional scope!

Aerial view means that he doesnt have to deal with cover and according to the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. he gets +20% to his "prowl" because people don't look up.
So in the great battle, down he comes, unseen, snipe attack, head-shot (counts as Deathblow directly to HP with an M.D. weapon).

Hows that?

Everytime he goes into combat he gets into a helicopter and jumps out some 5,000 feet above the earth? Seems a little ostentatious for 3 bandits but ok

GenThunderfist wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Yeah don't count on that, this thread has already gone well beyond gunmen

NEVER!!

Allow me to bring this full circle...

INTRODUCING...

A para-shooting (get it) Assassin O.C.C. (Mercenaries) with a long range (hand held, likely the Triax suitcase one) sniper rifle (souped-up range from his operator buddy) a fully functional scope!

Aerial view means that he doesnt have to deal with cover and according to the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. he gets +20% to his "prowl" because people don't look up.
So in the great battle, down he comes, unseen, snipe attack, head-shot (counts as Deathblow directly to HP with an M.D. weapon).

Hows that?

Everytime he goes into combat he gets into a helicopter and jumps out some 5,000 feet above the earth? Seems a little ostentatious for 3 bandits but ok

I had assumed that he only took high profile jobs.
If I was to "do it right" he also has tiny helicopters/drones as decoys and to give his enemies something to destroy so that he can land, straighten his tie, pack away his rifle into the suitcase and go home without anyone ever knowing he was there "The drones up here must have carried out the assassination." He doesn't even wear mega-damage armor because "he's just that damn good."

Akashic Soldier wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Ninjabunny wrote:Yeah don't count on that, this thread has already gone well beyond gunmen

NEVER!!

Allow me to bring this full circle...

INTRODUCING...

A para-shooting (get it) Assassin O.C.C. (Mercenaries) with a long range (hand held, likely the Triax suitcase one) sniper rifle (souped-up range from his operator buddy) a fully functional scope!

Aerial view means that he doesnt have to deal with cover and according to the Ley Line Walker O.C.C. he gets +20% to his "prowl" because people don't look up.
So in the great battle, down he comes, unseen, snipe attack, head-shot (counts as Deathblow directly to HP with an M.D. weapon).

Hows that?

Everytime he goes into combat he gets into a helicopter and jumps out some 5,000 feet above the earth? Seems a little ostentatious for 3 bandits but ok

I had assumed that he only took high profile jobs.
If I was to "do it right" he also has tiny helicopters/drones as decoys and to give his enemies something to destroy so that he can land, straighten his tie, back away his rifle into the suitcase and go home. Doesn't even wear mega-damage armor because "he's just that damn good."

"Well after paying for the bullets, the time, the effort, the skill, the fuel, and a little off the top for professionalism....YOU CAN'T AFFORD ME!"

GenThunderfist wrote:"Well after paying for the bullets, the time, the effort, the skill, the fuel, and a little off the top for professionalism....YOU CAN'T AFFORD ME!"

See, I knew I could somehow make parachuting important to the topic again. "Para-Shooter" like Alf before me, I kill me.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:"Well after paying for the bullets, the time, the effort, the skill, the fuel, and a little off the top for professionalism....YOU CAN'T AFFORD ME!"

See, I knew I could somehow make parachuting important to the topic again. "Para-Shooter" like Alf before me, I kill me.

I'm definatly changing my vote from Gun Master to Para-Shooter

juicer autododge and autoparry. combat bonuses apply with any weapon.

say652 wrote:juicer autododge and autoparry. combat bonuses apply with any weapon.

What!? First of all, most of the juicer combat bonuses are for Hand to Hand combat (like any bonuses). Yes, you get a bonus to auto-dodge a bullet, however you still the get the penalty of dodging a bullet. And that's if you see the attacker and know that it is being aimed for you, etc. etc. -- like any ranged combat.

Next, juicer's are not MD, nor can they negate energy attacks (like the Psi-Slinger), which means that they are at a serious disadvantage to the Gun Master OCC, or the Gun Slinger, or Psi-Slinger. Really they are not suited for ranged combat like the other OCCs are.

Heck, the Gunmaster gets an auto dodge with dog boxing AND gets a bonus to dodging bullets. A juicer is outgunned on so many level here.

GenThunderfist wrote:

say652 wrote:juicer autododge and autoparry. combat bonuses apply with any weapon.

What!? First of all, most of the juicer combat bonuses are for Hand to Hand combat (like any bonuses). Yes, you get a bonus to auto-dodge a bullet, however you still the get the penalty of dodging a bullet. And that's if you see the attacker and know that it is being aimed for you, etc. etc. -- like any ranged combat.

Next, juicer's are not MD, nor can they negate energy attacks (like the Psi-Slinger), which means that they are at a serious disadvantage to the Gun Master OCC, or the Gun Slinger, or Psi-Slinger. Really they are not suited for ranged combat like the other OCCs are.

Heck, the Gunmaster gets an auto dodge with dog boxing AND gets a bonus to dodging bullets. A juicer is outgunned on so many level here.

The problem is here (which I was trying to show with "The Para-Shooter") is that no single O.C.C. is the best... its always going to be on a case by case instance. The only way for it to work is if people made some sort of non-bias Beyonder style "Megaverse's greatest gunfighter" contest and players entered characters until only one person was left.

For instance: The Juicer with a Splynn Magic Net Gun and hand Pistols, fires, closes into close-combat within the blink of an eye as the Psi-Slinger reels back and is engulfed in the net and cops a lethal double tap to the head from the Juicer before he even hits the ground. The Juicer's tattered scarf dances in the wind as blood pools out of the Psi-Slinger's head.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:

say652 wrote:juicer autododge and autoparry. combat bonuses apply with any weapon.

What!? First of all, most of the juicer combat bonuses are for Hand to Hand combat (like any bonuses). Yes, you get a bonus to auto-dodge a bullet, however you still the get the penalty of dodging a bullet. And that's if you see the attacker and know that it is being aimed for you, etc. etc. -- like any ranged combat.

Next, juicer's are not MD, nor can they negate energy attacks (like the Psi-Slinger), which means that they are at a serious disadvantage to the Gun Master OCC, or the Gun Slinger, or Psi-Slinger. Really they are not suited for ranged combat like the other OCCs are.

Heck, the Gunmaster gets an auto dodge with dog boxing AND gets a bonus to dodging bullets. A juicer is outgunned on so many level here.

The problem is here (which I was trying to show with "The Para-Shooter") is that no single O.C.C. is the best... its always going to be on a case by case instance. The only way for it to work is if people made some sort of non-bias Beyonder style "Megaverse's greatest gunfighter" contest and players entered characters until only one person was left.

For instance: The Juicer with a Splynn Magic Net Gun and hand Pistols, fires, closes into close-combat within the blink of an eye as the Psi-Slinger reels back and is engulfed in the net and cops a lethal double tap to the head from the Juicer before he even hits the ground. The Juicer's tattered scarf dances in the wind as blood pools out of the Psi-Slinger's head.

I'll agree to that, but I still would maintain that a Juicer's combat bonuses and auto-dodge don't make him the best ranged fighter, as you even showed, he closed the gap first, then killed the Psi-Slinger. I never said that he couldn't beat everyone in Hand to Hand, just not ranged.

GenThunderfist wrote:I'll agree to that, but I still would maintain that a Juicer's combat bonuses and auto-dodge don't make him the best ranged fighter, as you even showed, he closed the gap first, then killed the Psi-Slinger. I never said that he couldn't beat everyone in Hand to Hand, just not ranged.

That was just an example. Lets change the scenario just a fraction... it is no longer Scarf-Juicer it is Hyperion Icarus Juicer. Now he has bigger guns than the Psi-Slinger, greater maneuverability (the Psi-Slinger has -1 to strike for every 50mph the thing can move which equates to about -3 or -4 if I recall correctly) on top of his increased Dodge bonus and the ability to gain access to cover and better line of sight than the Psi-Slinger and this isn't even giving Hyperion Icarus Juicer a name or gimmick. His autododge and increased speed makes him a difficult target to hit and he can attack more often than the Psi-Slinger because he does not always have to use a dedicated dodge and most of the time the Psi-Slinger is going to have to make Called Shots (which eat attacks) or not be able to attack him at all (in the case of total cover).

And though it might not seem like the Hyperion Juicer or the Samas Pilot are gun fighters I would argue that they are (especially since there is a dedicated Gun Fighter Samas model).

Likewise, now the Psi-Slinger is a Quick Flex D-Bee (gaining Auto-Dodge) and and just happens to have a Rush habit. Now the situation has changed again. Ya know?

And moreover I am just assuming they were fighting in an Old West-style town if they're in a ruined city or on an ocean liner or in a volcano that is moments from erupting... it all changes things. You just can't nail down any one O.C.C., the best you can hope to do is pick out that ONE GUY who is the best by way of being the guy currently holding the reputation or record for BEING the best.

I think that's one of the reason I love Rifts so much... everything you do matters because nearly everything is circumstantial.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

GenThunderfist wrote:I'll agree to that, but I still would maintain that a Juicer's combat bonuses and auto-dodge don't make him the best ranged fighter, as you even showed, he closed the gap first, then killed the Psi-Slinger. I never said that he couldn't beat everyone in Hand to Hand, just not ranged.

That was just an example. Lets change the scenario just a fraction... it is no longer Scarf-Juicer it is Hyperion Icarus Juicer. Now he has bigger guns than the Psi-Slinger, greater maneuverability (the Psi-Slinger has -1 to strike for every 50mph the thing can move which equates to about -3 or -4 if I recall correctly) on top of his increased Dodge bonus and the ability to gain access to cover and better line of sight than the Psi-Slinger and this isn't even giving Hyperion Icarus Juicer a name or gimmick. His autododge and increased speed makes him a difficult target to hit and he can attack more often than the Psi-Slinger because he does not always have to use a dedicated dodge and most of the time the Psi-Slinger is going to have to make Called Shots (which eat attacks) or not be able to attack him at all (in the case of total cover).

And though it might not seem like the Hyperion Juicer or the Samas Pilot are gun fighters I would argue that they are (especially since there is a dedicated Gun Fighter Samas model).

Likewise, now the Psi-Slinger is a Quick Flex D-Bee (gaining Auto-Dodge) and and just happens to have a Rush habit. Now the situation has changed again. Ya know?

And moreover I am just assuming they were fighting in an Old West-style town if they're in a ruined city or on an ocean liner or in a volcano that is moments from erupting... it all changes things. You just can't nail down any one O.C.C., the best you can hope to do is pick out that ONE GUY who is the best by way of being the guy currently holding the reputation or record for BEING the best.

I think that's one of the reason I love Rifts so much... everything you do matters because nearly everything is circumstantial.

Yeah, there are defiantly a lot of variables. All that aside though. Assuming perfect conditions, without any enhancements other than abilities. (So just looking at the OCC Stats and Natural Abilities, using max rolls for all stats and adding in the bonuses) I stand by my choice of the Gun Master none the less. He's really OP most of the time, but I love the little guy. He's one of my favorite classes, even with the Outside of China modifiers.

enhancer wrote:In reference to the Paratrooper O.C.C, they are definitely a bad idea.

Yup.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

enhancer wrote:In reference to the Paratrooper O.C.C, they are definitely a bad idea.

Yup.

I believe the opposite - the other OCCs are the bad idea.
The other OCCs don't usually offer any kind of bonus for their training, when it comes to combat they are no better at it than anyone else. The Paratrooper fixes the mistake that the other OCCs were hindered by.