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To answer your question K-man, The Latest Printing.

The correct answer to any rules conflict is always the most recent printed material. So in the case of the Forager that's R:SB1r. You'll notice the latest printing of the RUE has it with the same stats as R:SB1r.

Jay05 wrote:My point, and one people seem to miss in countless threads about plot in PB is this: We're all playing in Kevin's sandbox. Period.

But we're not playing in Kevin's sandbox. He sells a product that consists of books filled with SUGGESTIONS on how we might run our own game. As a customer purchasing his product, I want the most value for my money. When I see something that diminishes the value of the product to me (like meta-plot), I am likely to be unhappy with it.

If Kevin was giving his material away for free, I'd gratefully accept it however he wants to write it (assuming I still found value in it), but as a paying customer, my expectations are different.

--flatline

If you're that unhappy with the product there's a solution. And it has nothing to do with KS changing the plotline of his world and again it is his and I don't care if you or I drop a million dollars it's still his and he'll move it forward as he sees fit, if you want something different, start an RPG company, and talk to me in 2035.

Jay05 wrote:If you're that unhappy with the product there's a solution. And it has nothing to do with KS changing the plotline of his world and again it is his and I don't care if you or I drop a million dollars it's still his and he'll move it forward as he sees fit, if you want something different, start an RPG company, and talk to me in 2035.

I'm sure Kevin would appreciate your suggestion that I take my business elsewhere.

Fortunately for Kevin, I do find value in some of his books and, as such, have acquired a decent collection of them. If Kevin publishes books that have sufficient value to me, I will continue to purchase them. He betters his chances of getting my money if he doesn't do things that diminish the value of the books to me like advancing the time line.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Jay05 wrote:If you're that unhappy with the product there's a solution. And it has nothing to do with KS changing the plotline of his world and again it is his and I don't care if you or I drop a million dollars it's still his and he'll move it forward as he sees fit, if you want something different, start an RPG company, and talk to me in 2035.

I'm sure Kevin would appreciate your suggestion that I take my business elsewhere.

Fortunately for Kevin, I do find value in some of his books and, as such, have acquired a decent collection of them. If Kevin publishes books that have sufficient value to me, I will continue to purchase them. He betters his chances of getting my money if he doesn't do things that diminish the value of the books to me like advancing the time line.

--flatline

And I'm sure he'd also appreciate you and others here insinuating that you know better than he how to advance his game. And you said it yourself SUFFiCIENT value. That must mean that you cherry pick from various books what you find useful do you not? That was a point I made earlier.

Jay05 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Jay05 wrote:If you're that unhappy with the product there's a solution. And it has nothing to do with KS changing the plotline of his world and again it is his and I don't care if you or I drop a million dollars it's still his and he'll move it forward as he sees fit, if you want something different, start an RPG company, and talk to me in 2035.

I'm sure Kevin would appreciate your suggestion that I take my business elsewhere.

Fortunately for Kevin, I do find value in some of his books and, as such, have acquired a decent collection of them. If Kevin publishes books that have sufficient value to me, I will continue to purchase them. He betters his chances of getting my money if he doesn't do things that diminish the value of the books to me like advancing the time line.

--flatline

And I'm sure he'd also appreciate you and others here insinuating that you know better than he how to advance his game. And you said it yourself SUFFiCIENT value. That must mean that you cherry pick from various books what you find useful do you not? That was a point I made earlier.

What he does in his game is entirely up to him. But as a businessman trying to sell his product to us, I would suspect that he does have an interest in hearing what we want and don't want to see in his product.

--flatline

I never said he doesn't want to hear from you or anyone else. However if an advancement in time only occurs every couple of decades or so and only advances in continuity by four years I really don't see the point in complaining about something one can adapt to or choose to alter to fit your homebrew continuity.

Which is plenty of time for your game to advance in ways that are no longer compatible with the metaplot and thus making the books less useful and thus making those books less worth purchasing. And Last I checked Palladium really can't afford for their books to be less likely to be purchased than they already are. And that is the folly of Metaplot. White Wolf ran full on into this and rebooted to get them selve out of the corner they painted them selves into.

Like I said, four years where the biggest change is the destruction of a kingdom which had not been fully discribed till the destruction was already in full swing which as I pointed out in another thread was something that he has stated he planned to do before the first Rifts book ever saw print years ago. Is not that big a change.

And yet look at the wrath it has stirred up. Look at how much that little thing has made it so that people are less interested in buying books. Which illustrates the folly of advancing metaplot.

Daeglan wrote:And yet look at the wrath it has stirred up. Look at how much that little thing has made it so that people are less interested in buying books. Which illustrates the folly of advancing metaplot.

Or people could I don't know... Adapt? Hmm what a concept.

Jay05 wrote:Like I said, four years where the biggest change is the destruction of a kingdom which had not been fully discribed till the destruction was already in full swing which as I pointed out in another thread was something that he has stated he planned to do before the first Rifts book ever saw print years ago. Is not that big a change.

See, that's one of the complaints that I have, about how SoT was done.
Writing-wise, that's a bad move, because it's a LOT harder for people to care about something that they know virtually nothing about.

Jay05 wrote:

Daeglan wrote:And yet look at the wrath it has stirred up. Look at how much that little thing has made it so that people are less interested in buying books. Which illustrates the folly of advancing metaplot.

Or people could I don't know... Adapt? Hmm what a concept.

Or they could Oh I don't know voice what they want.

The only reason that the Sot caused so much controversy imo because in some cases it ignored canon and pretty much made it a one sided CS win. Im not saying the CS should have lost. They needed more than a slap on the wrist. Which is what imo they go in Sot.

Sureshot wrote:The only reason that the Sot caused so much controversy imo because in some cases it ignored canon and pretty much made it a one sided CS win. Im not saying the CS should have lost. They needed more than a slap on the wrist. Which is what imo they go in Sot.

Not to turn this into yet another "how things should have gone," but I think it'd have been more realistic to have a paragraph or two in some wordbook mentioning that the CS invaded Tolkeen, won, and that it took about a year.
Of course, if Palladium had spent a lot of time building up the city BEFORE the war, showing us how mighty it was, and how important it was, then I could see making a big deal over it.
But as it was, it seemed like an over-blown "much books about nothing" kind of affair.
And I have no idea why so many people cling to the notion that this relatively minor kingdom should have been expected to stand up to a nation of millions.

Tolkeen got inflated by FoM, but not enough to pretend that this was anything like a fair fight, even with the CS waging two wars at once.

Akashic Soldier wrote:To answer your question K-man, The Latest Printing.

The correct answer to any rules conflict is always the most recent printed material. So in the case of the Forager that's R:SB1r. You'll notice the latest printing of the RUE has it with the same stats as R:SB1r.

I do not see the Triax Forager in RUE. Has it been added? What date/print run do you have? My RUE is Second Printing January 2007.

I'd love to just say the most recent printing take priority (which to me is the most logical answer), but there is a problem when playing a game over the internet (Which is pretty much the only way to play unless you live in Michigan). This might work for MY library to use the most recent printing, but I have no idea what is in the potential player's library, what books he owns, and what printings me might have (pre- or post- 2006). This is why they need to be consistent. Now, I am forced to post stats and clarifications when I shouldnt need to if I ran a game using Foragers.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Sureshot wrote:The only reason that the Sot caused so much controversy imo because in some cases it ignored canon and pretty much made it a one sided CS win. Im not saying the CS should have lost. They needed more than a slap on the wrist. Which is what imo they go in Sot.

Not to turn this into yet another "how things should have gone," but I think it'd have been more realistic to have a paragraph or two in some wordbook mentioning that the CS invaded Tolkeen, won, and that it took about a year.
Of course, if Palladium had spent a lot of time building up the city BEFORE the war, showing us how mighty it was, and how important it was, then I could see making a big deal over it.
But as it was, it seemed like an over-blown "much books about nothing" kind of affair.
And I have no idea why so many people cling to the notion that this relatively minor kingdom should have been expected to stand up to a nation of millions.

Tolkeen got inflated by FoM, but not enough to pretend that this was anything like a fair fight, even with the CS waging two wars at once.

The bolded part is the part that always got me. They even did it wrong with the SoT books - Tolkeen and Freehold weren't described until the last book! The first book should have set the stage and shown the major players, particularly the ones like Tolkeen that had never been described before.

That being said i never got the impression that Tolkeen was a "minor kingdom" - it was described as being a major haven for magic uers - but i would agree that it was certainly never going to end any other way. They were one nation of a few million souls (total, combatants and noncombatants, in the entire Kingdom) up against FOUR nations of MANY millions. Basically, they were one nation the size of the smaller CS states up against the entire batch of them - yeah, it was never going to end any other way.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:That being said i never got the impression that Tolkeen was a "minor kingdom" - it was described as being a major haven for magic uers -

Well, "relatively" minor.
In this case, relative to the Coalition States.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:That being said i never got the impression that Tolkeen was a "minor kingdom" - it was described as being a major haven for magic uers -

Well, "relatively" minor.
In this case, relative to the Coalition States.

I'd call it major in comparison to most individual Coalition states, but not to the Coalition States as a whole.

/Sub

Stonefur wrote:

Subjugator wrote:If you look in prior threads, they're looking into rules modifications. I don't know that it's a matter of priority as much as it is size of the job.

/Sub

The Meta- Plot doesn't seem to be hurting for material. How big a job was all that meta plot creation compared to a working, accessible set of rules? Anything relevant to the other 95% of my response?

That meta-plot isn't hurting for material is your perspective. To my perspective, I want more fluff. There's only so many different pistols, rifles, OCCs, and the like that I can use.

The answers to rest of your post aren't known to me. I'd love to have a character generator, and spent a very long time trying to make one for my own games, but my software development skills are not what they could be (though since I've taken a job doing that for a living, maybe it'll get better). I was trying to help with what I could help with and trying to shed some light on something that I thought you might not have known already. If all it'll do is honk you off when I try to help as far as I can (but can't answer everything for you), then you're welcome to not read my posts.

/Sub

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:That being said i never got the impression that Tolkeen was a "minor kingdom" - it was described as being a major haven for magic uers - but i would agree that it was certainly never going to end any other way. They were one nation of a few million souls (total, combatants and noncombatants, in the entire Kingdom) up against FOUR nations of MANY millions. Basically, they were one nation the size of the smaller CS states up against the entire batch of them - yeah, it was never going to end any other way.

Hm. I'm not so sure.

Tolkeen could never have attacked the CS and won, but defending is a different story.

You and four other SAMAS pilots are flying along on patrol and you see a Glitter Boy. You radio him and tell him to leave. He very firmly tells you that he's not going anywhere.

If you attack him, you'll certainly win...but is it worth the cost?

/Sub

Killer Cyborg wrote:Not to turn this into yet another "how things should have gone," but I think it'd have been more realistic to have a paragraph or two in some wordbook mentioning that the CS invaded Tolkeen, won, and that it took about a year.
Of course, if Palladium had spent a lot of time building up the city BEFORE the war, showing us how mighty it was, and how important it was, then I could see making a big deal over it.
But as it was, it seemed like an over-blown "much books about nothing" kind of affair.
And I have no idea why so many people cling to the notion that this relatively minor kingdom should have been expected to stand up to a nation of millions.

Tolkeen got inflated by FoM, but not enough to pretend that this was anything like a fair fight, even with the CS waging two wars at once.

Yeah I never liked how Tolkeen was detailed in the last book of the Sot. Where the city gets destroyed. I do disagree that the tolkeen was a minor power. Could they have stopped the Cs no. Yet would have loved to see some of the Cs states at least hit with a spell or two of legend. Imo both sides should have gone one big battle winner takes all with the CS winning. Except the Cs had taken one hell of a beating and would take years to recover. Certainly in no shape to continue expanding.

Yeah, this might become a dead horse, so I'm not going to post specifics, but in the end, SOT happened and was a CS victory. As canon, we must respect that fact because all future books will be written as if this was the case.

Kagashi wrote:Yeah, this might become a dead horse, so I'm not going to post specifics, but in the end, SOT happened and was a CS victory. As canon, we must respect that fact because all future books will be written as if this was the case.

...unless we're willing to adapt the new material to the current state of our game world.

Respecting (or at least acknowledging) canon is only important when discussing canon. It has no effect on our games unless we let it.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Yeah, this might become a dead horse, so I'm not going to post specifics, but in the end, SOT happened and was a CS victory. As canon, we must respect that fact because all future books will be written as if this was the case.

...unless we're willing to adapt the new material to the current state of our game world.

Respecting (or at least acknowledging) canon is only important when discussing canon. It has no effect on our games unless we let it.

--flatline

Which would imply taking or leaving meta-plot as I pointed out and you argued against as published meta-plot is canon. So which is it? Can you ignore metaplot (canon) or not?

Jay05 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Yeah, this might become a dead horse, so I'm not going to post specifics, but in the end, SOT happened and was a CS victory. As canon, we must respect that fact because all future books will be written as if this was the case.

...unless we're willing to adapt the new material to the current state of our game world.

Respecting (or at least acknowledging) canon is only important when discussing canon. It has no effect on our games unless we let it.

--flatline

Which would imply taking or leaving meta-plot as I pointed out and you argued against as published meta-plot is canon. So which is it? Can you ignore metaplot (canon) or not?

I can and I do, the but more material I have to ignore, the less value a particular book has for me. If there's not enough value left, I won't buy the book. Instead of wasting 40 pages on meta-plot, give me 40 more pages of useful material. Instead of devoting a book to meta-plot that I will never buy because I have no use for it, write a book that I will have a use for so that I'll be willing to spend my money on it.

--flatline

There really aren't that many books with that much meta plot. Africa? Over and done, take or leave. Juicer Uprising? Over and done take or leave what other books aside from SOT which has been talked about ad-nausium, do you consider having too much meta-plot?