Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[Nightmask]

No that's not how it works. You need something that actually says "the other is in error, this is why"

We have that, we have a clear statement in the core book that these mecha use protoculture energy sources, and a clear set of stats for the Macross and Masters Saga mecha that show they don't. This is all pretty cut and dry, as even your own quotations from the books illustrate.

No we have a clear set of stats from the Macross and masters Saga that show they do not use PC as its prime power source. Again its the car. My car is Gasoline powered, but it has a battery (chemical power) in it. Some Later models are pure electric. That does not mean I do not have a chemical battery, just that the battery is not the main powersource. Now do you have a quote that says the do NOT USE PROTOCULTURE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? If you do not have such a quote then you are arguing that lack of proof = proof of lack. This is a logical fallacy, to prove a position you can not just say 'there is nothing here that contradicts me' you need to actually say 'look here it says this works'[/quote]

The car battery isn't a secondary power source for a vehicle either, you can't run the car and get around on a car battery because it derives everything off the gasoline engine, the car battery itself is there for a very limited purpose of running at best a few minor systems and to get the gasoline engine started that does everything else.

It's also not a logical fallacy when he says you need proof that the vehicles in question actually have something that requires and runs off of protoculture or it doesn't exist, because a point is made as to what vehicles do in fact run on protoculture so without a declarative statement that a particular vehicle does use protoculture somewhere then it doesn't. One cannot simply say 'well it must have because this list over here assumed it did', particularly when said list still requires it to be factually known that the vehicle in question does in fact run on protoculture, since after all the main point of this thread is regarding refitting vehicles with an alternate energy source so that they can't be tracked. If the vehicles all emit protoculture signatures in spite of having no protoculture in them why would anyone bother refitting them or building new vehicles if for some bizarre reason all vehicles emit protoculture signatures whether they use it or not?

[eliakon]

No we have a clear set of stats from the Macross and masters Saga that show they do not use PC as its prime power source. Again its the car. My car is Gasoline powered, but it has a battery (chemical power) in it. Some Later models are pure electric. That does not mean I do not have a chemical battery, just that the battery is not the main powersource. Now do you have a quote that says the do NOT USE PROTOCULTURE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? If you do not have such a quote then you are arguing that lack of proof = proof of lack. This is a logical fallacy, to prove a position you can not just say 'there is nothing here that contradicts me' you need to actually say 'look here it says this works'

The car battery isn't a secondary power source for a vehicle either, you can't run the car and get around on a car battery because it derives everything off the gasoline engine, the car battery itself is there for a very limited purpose of running at best a few minor systems and to get the gasoline engine started that does everything else.

It's also not a logical fallacy when he says you need proof that the vehicles in question actually have something that requires and runs off of protoculture or it doesn't exist, because a point is made as to what vehicles do in fact run on protoculture so without a declarative statement that a particular vehicle does use protoculture somewhere then it doesn't. One cannot simply say 'well it must have because this list over here assumed it did', particularly when said list still requires it to be factually known that the vehicle in question does in fact run on protoculture, since after all the main point of this thread is regarding refitting vehicles with an alternate energy source so that they can't be tracked. If the vehicles all emit protoculture signatures in spite of having no protoculture in them why would anyone bother refitting them or building new vehicles if for some bizarre reason all vehicles emit protoculture signatures whether they use it or not?

I think you don't get how this works
The book says that there is something that can be detected (the invid sensors)
The books do not have anything ANYWHERE that says "nope actually there is nothing here to detect"

And yes I think your getting the point of this. The question is indeed, why convert to SLMH if SLMH does not provide invisibility. I contend (based on what the books state) that simply being Robotech Mecha is sufficient. Something in the mecha systems seems to use protoculture. We might not know what it is, but we can see that there is something there that the Invid can detect. Something in the mecha is powered by protoculture. This goes back to my car analogy
If I have a sensor that can detect Chemical Power Supplies (batteries)
I will detect all electric cars, since they run on batteries. I will detect all Ipods, and stun guns which run on batteries as well.
I will ALSO detect gasoline cars, which have batteries, even though they run on gasoline.

Protoculture is like that battery, it seems to be ubiquitous in Robotechnology, but it wasn't until late in the process that it was used as the main source of power. IF the battery/PC is ubiquitous (like say the pg 11 reference which says its the powersource for Robotechnology, which explains the list) then it doesn't HAVE to be seperatly listed in the mecha stats, anymore than the mecha stats need to list their oil weight for them to use oil.

[Seto Kaiba]

The car battery isn't a secondary power source for a vehicle either, you can't run the car and get around on a car battery because it derives everything off the gasoline engine, the car battery itself is there for a very limited purpose of running at best a few minor systems and to get the gasoline engine started that does everything else.

True, the car battery analogy eliakon used is probably a really bad one for his argument... on a normal gasoline or diesel vehicle, the 12V battery is only used as a keep-alive power supply for volatile memory, and for the starter. It's not even truly a stand-alone power supply, since it needs constant recharging using the energy the alternator produces from the running combustion engine. In practice, it's a glorified capacitor like the one on the Spartas' beam rifle... without an external power supply to keep it charged, it cannot function.

It's also not a logical fallacy when he says you need proof that the vehicles in question actually have something that requires and runs off of protoculture or it doesn't exist, because a point is made as to what vehicles do in fact run on protoculture so without a declarative statement that a particular vehicle does use protoculture somewhere then it doesn't.

That's pretty much the rule, yeah... if it ain't in print, then it doesn't exist. Even a reserve power supply would still be listed under the mecha's "Power System" stat if it existed, or under "Payload" if it were attached to one of the mecha's weapons.

One cannot simply say 'well it must have because this list over here assumed it did', particularly when said list still requires it to be factually known that the vehicle in question does in fact run on protoculture, [...]

Especially since we know for an absolute fact that Harmony Gold waltzed in not long after the core book went to print and torpedoed the assumption that all mecha in Robotech use protoculture, rendering that little assumption in the core book invalid by default.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think you don't get how this works
The book says that there is something that can be detected (the invid sensors)
The books do not have anything ANYWHERE that says "nope actually there is nothing here to detect"

I think it more likely that you're the one who doesn't get how this works.

The core book says "this can be detected because it runs on X".
The subsequent books come in and say "This runs on Y, not X".
There is no evidence to suggest that Y is detectable, or that X is still present on the vehicle despite it using Y instead.

I contend (based on what the books state) that simply being Robotech Mecha is sufficient. Something in the mecha systems seems to use protoculture.

Your contention is not supported by the text of the books themselves, sorry to say. There is NOTHING in the stats of the Macross or Masters Saga books that states that they use protoculture in any way, and both the core book and New Generation source book indicate that Invid only detect active protoculture powered tech, which we know those mecha are not because we're explicitly told in their respective books that those mecha are powered by nuclear fusion or, in the case of the SCA support mecha, hydrogen fuel cells. There is no text in the books that suggests Invid can detect either of those.

If I have a sensor that can detect Chemical Power Supplies (batteries)

But a car that doesn't have a battery wouldn't be detected, and you can run a car without its 12V battery.

IF the battery/PC is ubiquitous (like say the pg 11 reference which says its the powersource for Robotechnology, which explains the list) then it doesn't HAVE to be seperatly listed in the mecha stats, anymore than the mecha stats need to list their oil weight for them to use oil.

That's an IF that's not supported by the rules... if it's the power source for robotechnology, then it would by definition be listed in the "Power source" stat for those mecha, which it is not.

[Nightmask]

No we have a clear set of stats from the Macross and masters Saga that show they do not use PC as its prime power source. Again its the car. My car is Gasoline powered, but it has a battery (chemical power) in it. Some Later models are pure electric. That does not mean I do not have a chemical battery, just that the battery is not the main powersource. Now do you have a quote that says the do NOT USE PROTOCULTURE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM? If you do not have such a quote then you are arguing that lack of proof = proof of lack. This is a logical fallacy, to prove a position you can not just say 'there is nothing here that contradicts me' you need to actually say 'look here it says this works'

The car battery isn't a secondary power source for a vehicle either, you can't run the car and get around on a car battery because it derives everything off the gasoline engine, the car battery itself is there for a very limited purpose of running at best a few minor systems and to get the gasoline engine started that does everything else.

It's also not a logical fallacy when he says you need proof that the vehicles in question actually have something that requires and runs off of protoculture or it doesn't exist, because a point is made as to what vehicles do in fact run on protoculture so without a declarative statement that a particular vehicle does use protoculture somewhere then it doesn't. One cannot simply say 'well it must have because this list over here assumed it did', particularly when said list still requires it to be factually known that the vehicle in question does in fact run on protoculture, since after all the main point of this thread is regarding refitting vehicles with an alternate energy source so that they can't be tracked. If the vehicles all emit protoculture signatures in spite of having no protoculture in them why would anyone bother refitting them or building new vehicles if for some bizarre reason all vehicles emit protoculture signatures whether they use it or not?

I think you don't get how this works
The book says that there is something that can be detected (the invid sensors)
The books do not have anything ANYWHERE that says "nope actually there is nothing here to detect"

And yes I think your getting the point of this. The question is indeed, why convert to SLMH if SLMH does not provide invisibility. I contend (based on what the books state) that simply being Robotech Mecha is sufficient. Something in the mecha systems seems to use protoculture. We might not know what it is, but we can see that there is something there that the Invid can detect. Something in the mecha is powered by protoculture. This goes back to my car analogy
If I have a sensor that can detect Chemical Power Supplies (batteries)
I will detect all electric cars, since they run on batteries. I will detect all Ipods, and stun guns which run on batteries as well.
I will ALSO detect gasoline cars, which have batteries, even though they run on gasoline.

Protoculture is like that battery, it seems to be ubiquitous in Robotechnology, but it wasn't until late in the process that it was used as the main source of power. IF the battery/PC is ubiquitous (like say the pg 11 reference which says its the powersource for Robotechnology, which explains the list) then it doesn't HAVE to be seperatly listed in the mecha stats, anymore than the mecha stats need to list their oil weight for them to use oil.

I get how things work just fine, thanks. You have a house rule that it all has unlisted protoculture systems so that they're always actively emitting protoculture so that a list that included things it shouldn't have is actually valid, rather than going by the more logical route that if it doesn't have protoculture then the sensor doesn't target them since they have no protoculture emission to detect.

What you actually have using your analogy is a sensor that detects gasoline and a list of vehicles thought to use gasoline only the list also included some vehicles that use diesel by mistake or someone thought the vehicle ran on gasoline. So rather than acknowledge the list is wrong with regards to the diesel engine vehicles instead you argue that the vehicles still use gasoline as well it's just not listed anywhere that they do so that the list still applies even though now it means the gasoline sensor detects vehicles as having gasoline even when they don't. Plus arguing that if a vehicle that previously ran on gasoline was refitted so it was now a diesel or electric vehicle it would still detect as a gasoline vehicle because 'well the list says Car X can be detected as a gasoline vehicle so it always can be detected as one even when it isn't'.

[eliakon]

I am going to make this my last post here, since it appears that we are going in circles.
I understand the contention that the sensor should be houseruled to not detect the mecha. I understand that there were changes made to the continiuity outside the game that have yet to be incorporated into the game. However I also feel that the sensor as written can also operate as written by simply assuming that the books as written are correct, and not bringing in the outside changes until such time as they are brought into the game.

So yes, you can make the mecha invisible in your game, that's your right. It is a perfectly plausible house rule, and fits.
Or you can make the mecha visible in your game, that's also your right, and it is the canon stance.

There is support for both contentions, however like most doctrinal disputes, neither side feels that the others citations are valid, and that only theirs should be used. Nothing is going to change that at this point.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] I understand the contention that the sensor should be houseruled to not detect the mecha. I understand that there were changes made to the continiuity outside the game that have yet to be incorporated into the game.

Apparently not, as the sensor rules as written only detect protoculture-powered vehicles and equipment, and it erroneously lists the pre-New Generation mecha as being protoculture-powered. The change was made already, that's why the Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books do not list those mecha as having ANY protoculture technology at all. I'm afraid you may be unclear on what "canon" means as well.

Making them detectable even though their stats do not indicate in any way that they use protoculture energy systems is a house rule. Making them invisible to Invid protoculture sensors is the rule as written, because no protoculture on the mecha means no protoculture energy to detect. In order for those vehicles to be detected by Invid protoculture sensors, their stats would need to list some form of protoculture energy system, and they do not do so.

[Nightmask]

I am going to make this my last post here, since it appears that we are going in circles.
I understand the contention that the sensor should be houseruled to not detect the mecha. I understand that there were changes made to the continiuity outside the game that have yet to be incorporated into the game. However I also feel that the sensor as written can also operate as written by simply assuming that the books as written are correct, and not bringing in the outside changes until such time as they are brought into the game.

So yes, you can make the mecha invisible in your game, that's your right. It is a perfectly plausible house rule, and fits.
Or you can make the mecha visible in your game, that's also your right, and it is the canon stance.

There is support for both contentions, however like most doctrinal disputes, neither side feels that the others citations are valid, and that only theirs should be used. Nothing is going to change that at this point.

I'm afraid you're mistaken on what the canon stance is, the canon stance is 'the sensor works on things that emit protoculture energy signatures', so it's very much the house rule that 'well it also works on these things even when they have no protoculture'. There's zero to support the position that the sensor works on things that don't have protoculture, because a bad list doesn't qualify as proof, particularly when the text goes out of its way to cover listing other things that may have protoculture as qualifying.

So again, canon is the sensor only works on things with active protoculture, so if it doesn't have protoculture the sensor doesn't work. It's very simple, if something doesn't have it it's safe, none of the mecha in that list can be detected if it's had its protoculture power source replaced with something else or if it never used it in the first place. Very simple, very logical, VERY canon.

It's also hardly a 'doctrinal dispute', doctrine has nothing to do with it. It's a simple matter of logic and what is and isn't factually valid.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, according to Louie's dialog, the designs of the shadow technology the humans have are fundamentally wrong somehow, though they don't know how or why.

That the technology can be wrong somehow is obvious, but the nature of the "wrongness" isn't known.

Given the Bio-Emulator was constructed on Earth, and it alters the PC signature, it is entirely possible it can be fixed.

The effort involved is likely also a factor... adapting their existing inventory of protoculture-powered mecha to shadow technology seems to have been a relatively minimally-invasive change, where completely redesigning their entire arsenal to use fusion could have cost them several of their vehicles entirely (like the Cyclones...)

Given IMU teams are able to switch SLMH to PC, the reverse should be possible (AGAC is about the same size as an Alpha). So if a team can improvise it in the field on Earth, the UEEF should be able to pull off something more professional with its vast resources. The Shadow Fighters had several features redesigned from previous Alpha models (VTOL, hand, shoulder pod, etc) after all. The Silverback (B-Mode) stock frame (no turret weapon) though is about right for an ASC PA suit, so it could transition to the Fuel-Cell stack instead of fusion.

Given that the Cyclones didn't get Shadow Systems to my knowledge (unless "Invasion" videogame is canon in that respect), their "vulnerability" to detection doesn't seem to be an issue for the UEEF. Even though Sue Grahm was part of a Shadow equipped force, her Cyclone doesn't seem to have the system given the Invid still targeted her (even though she wasn't firing on them to attract attention). So in the long term the Cyclone might have to wait until the next incarnation (VR-06x series or whatever number they are up to).

Wait, then why are you debating me on the detectability of VF-1s and so on? The RPG is specific about the Invid sensors and so on only detecting the expenditure of protoculture to generate bio-energy (in short, as fuel). eliakon cheerfully provided many quotes in his last post to that effect, not knowing they didn't support his claim.

Because I am not convinced at all that the PC energy emissions equate to PC fuel consumption (nor am I convinced SLMH doesn't involve PC, or that we can discount the notion of a "false-positive").

Recall the H-90 use with the "discovery" by Rand of PC tracking, he merely has to turn it on. By the RPGs reckoning such an action doesn't consume any of the available charges, so one could leave it on for 24hrs (or whatever) and not effect the payload. That points to PC applications being present that don't consume PC at all (or in the near term), but are still detectable.

Per the text of the books, the exact nature doesn't seem to be terribly relevant... only that the consumption of protoculture by engines, furnaces, generators, reactors, and other power supplies is what the Invid home in on and can "see".

It is very relevant though. How the signal is created can tell us if the PC must be consumed to emit its characteristic signature or not.

For example:
PC is consumed releasing a Gamma Ray (or photon, elementary particle, etc) that is different than if PC is consumed and it induces a current to flow in unused PC (creating an electro-magnetic field with certain properties). The first example limits what type of PC activity can actually detected compared to the other, as the 2nd really doesn't require PC to be consumed at all.

The RPG's text here throws the artificiality of that signal into a different context... the protoculture emission is natural, its harmonics are the artificial aspect. The device is, per the RPG, powered by a single protoculture cell. On reflection, the RPG's take does seem consistent with the dialogue though. Lancer never says they're trying to give a convincing impersonation of protoculture emissions, just activity (usage).

The Regis statement make it clear that it is possible to produce a synthetic signature though. Weather the HDBE was actually creating such a signal really isn't the question, it is if it is possible to create a synthetic/artificial signature. The Regis seems to think so, even Corg, but he doesn't think humans have the brains to do so (Corg may be overly biased though).

If the Regis thinks it is possible to create a synthetic signature, then it is possible to inadvertently do the same thing.

The RPG doesn't SAY that, though... or that SLMH is NOT still in production.

It is strongly hinted at though that SLMH is not in production as there is no actual reference to SLMH at all really outside of the IMU entires in the NG SB. I doubt the hidden ASC/RDF supply caches mentioned can keep the resistance and other users going for 10+ years, they might be lucky to get a 90day supply (and stretch it by non-use and a lower user count than the supply expected). SLMH production itself has requirements (energy, raw material, high pressure) that may prevent use, and even if one can pull that off it may attract the attention of the Invid.

[Jefffar]

Just a reminder not to talk about each other in your posts and instead focus on the subject at hand.

[Nightmask]

Wait, then why are you debating me on the detectability of VF-1s and so on? The RPG is specific about the Invid sensors and so on only detecting the expenditure of protoculture to generate bio-energy (in short, as fuel). eliakon cheerfully provided many quotes in his last post to that effect, not knowing they didn't support his claim.

Because I am not convinced at all that the PC energy emissions equate to PC fuel consumption (nor am I convinced SLMH doesn't involve PC, or that we can discount the notion of a "false-positive").

Recall the H-90 use with the "discovery" by Rand of PC tracking, he merely has to turn it on. By the RPGs reckoning such an action doesn't consume any of the available charges, so one could leave it on for 24hrs (or whatever) and not effect the payload. That points to PC applications being present that don't consume PC at all (or in the near term), but are still detectable.

No, what it points to is that all it takes is what amounts to a trivial amount of energy drain for an active system (such as turning it on so it's 'hot' as it were) to start generating a protoculture signature from something that runs on protoculture. If you've got something that detects the electromagnetic signal of an active electronic device but have it turned off you aren't going to detect it as you aren't drawing on its power source, but even a cell phone once turned on in passive mode is generating a signature. Same with the H-90, once he turned it on it was on and generating a signal he didn't have to be shooting anyone with it to produce that signal just have the systems powered up in stand-by mode. Just like the decoy wasn't powering anything (certainly not in the levels you'd expect for an energy weapon or giant mecha) but still gave off a signal, it didn't require anything but a trickle charge to run something and make a signal.

There's also no reason to think SLMH still requires some protoculculture, if it did some mention would be made of it. Instead though mention is made of trying to NOT make use of protoculture and switch to an alternative fuel source, you're hardly switching if you still have to use it, that's more of a hybrid fuel system and would require specific mention to accept the existence of it.

We also don't have any reason to think there are 'false-positives' either, when you've got something calibrated for a particular thing it tends to not false-positive the more selective it is, and in science-fiction such things (unless someone uses it for a plot point) never happen and the sensors are always accurate. Considering protoculture is so different than conventional energy sources it's quite believable that there's no chance of registering false-positives simply by there not being anything close enough to it to cause such errors.

[Jefffar]

The Invid use a system sensitive enough to detect a handgun, so all it would take is some power running though some sot of protoculture using system to send out the appropriate reading. Again, that brings us back to what is a Protoculture Chip used for?

[Nightmask]

The Invid use a system sensitive enough to detect a handgun, so all it would take is some power running though some sot of protoculture using system to send out the appropriate reading. Again, that brings us back to what is a Protoculture Chip used for?

I imagine that really wouldn't matter, since nothing we know about them seems to make them out to be power sources (if they were then they'd logically run out and have to be replaced yet we never have any mention of them requiring regular replacement). Plus is there anything that says those chips actually go into mecha, particularly those in question that are said to explicitly not run on protoculture engines or the like?

Presumably it's the nature of using protoculture as a power source and putting it under load that causes the power source to emit the unique signal the sensor detects. Being configured in this power cell configuration makes it want to give off that signal once it's active.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, according to Louie's dialog, the designs of the shadow technology the humans have are fundamentally wrong somehow, though they don't know how or why.

That the technology can be wrong somehow is obvious, but the nature of the "wrongness" isn't known.

Given the Bio-Emulator was constructed on Earth, and it alters the PC signature, it is entirely possible it can be fixed. [...]

True enough, the exact nature of the "wrongness" isn't clear in-universe or out... but at present, the stance the story is taking is that Shadow Technology is beyond human understanding. Fixing it would require a very significant investment of time and energy, since they would first have to gain a working understanding of the principles behind it. I don't think they really have the time, considering it took them ten years to get even a basic grasp of robotechnology starting from zero, and they still haven't quite mastered that thirty-odd years later.

Given IMU teams are able to switch SLMH to PC, the reverse should be possible (AGAC is about the same size as an Alpha).

In theory, yes... though it's worth noting that that weird AGACs/Defender hybrid is said to use a protoculture reactor rather than a protoculture cell-based system. The Alpha's protoculture cell generator may pose other difficulties, mechanically. (Then there's the RPG's slightly worrying implication that converting hardware from one type of power system to another is extremely dangerous...)

Given that the Cyclones didn't get Shadow Systems to my knowledge (unless "Invasion" videogame is canon in that respect), their "vulnerability" to detection doesn't seem to be an issue for the UEEF. Even though Sue Grahm was part of a Shadow equipped force, her Cyclone doesn't seem to have the system given the Invid still targeted her (even though she wasn't firing on them to attract attention).

Whether the Cyclones (esp. the Super Cyclone, which was specially designed to fight the Invid) are supposed to have been shadow upgraded is certainly unknown... though since cyclones were at least as common as the Alpha fighters, you'd have to wonder why they wouldn't.

Because I am not convinced at all that the PC energy emissions equate to PC fuel consumption (nor am I convinced SLMH doesn't involve PC, or that we can discount the notion of a "false-positive").

The RPG certainly seems to be on the side of protoculture energy emissions being, specifically, the result of protoculture fuel being expended to generate bio-energy. They don't seem to even CONSIDER any passive applications of the stuff in the Invid sensing rules in either the core book or New Gen book.

Recall the H-90 use with the "discovery" by Rand of PC tracking, he merely has to turn it on. By the RPGs reckoning such an action doesn't consume any of the available charges, so one could leave it on for 24hrs (or whatever) and not effect the payload.

True, though since the weapon is supposed to be ENTIRELY protoculture-powered, it would appear that they can detect the protoculture cells it uses for power in an active state even if they aren't actually discharging beyond a negligible level. I suppose this could mean that protoculture power systems have to "excite" a raw protoculture fuel into a state where it can discharge its bio-energy, and that what the Invid "see" isn't really the process of generation itself, but rather some kind of characteristic frequency given off by protoculture in that discharge state... like a running generator that isn't supplying current to anything.

The Regis statement make it clear that it is possible to produce a synthetic signature though. Weather the HDBE was actually creating such a signal really isn't the question, it is if it is possible to create a synthetic/artificial signature. The Regis seems to think so, even Corg, but he doesn't think humans have the brains to do so (Corg may be overly biased though).

WRT the text of the RPG and so on... Corg appears to have been right. The bio-emulator is amplifying and/or tweaking the emissions of a protoculture cell, rather than producing an entirely artificial signature.

The Invid use a system sensitive enough to detect a handgun, so all it would take is some power running though some sot of protoculture using system to send out the appropriate reading. Again, that brings us back to what is a Protoculture Chip used for?

But what the Gallant is using for power is a protoculture e-clip, which is a protoculture energy generator that would be outputting protoculture energy to the gun. It's an active application of protoculture, not a passive one like using it as a semiconductor material.

[guardiandashi]

maybe its interpretation and maybe its just my view but I was always under the impression that protoculture as a fuel not as a tech base per se was a core part of the robotech transformation and adaption systems.
personally I ignore the current claim that macross and southern cross military mecha DO NOT use protoculture to be an in error retcon.

now as far as 1st gen macross equipment I always felt the protoculture was heavily involved in the jump to make robotechnology work. southern cross was a refined version of the same stuff, (with more of the non transformable stuff relying on nuclear and fusion power sources and more likely to NOT use protoculture systems due to their limited supplies, IE only use it where its really needed not just to make stuff perform a little bit better...

in the new generation stuff they got away from the heavy protoculture enhanced fusion power plants and went with a lot more protoculture cell operated things basically running them on pc batteries. the problem rapidly comes up tho that if you have a limited supply of pc fuel and everything runs on these pc batteries you are in trouble. with the 1st generation stuff the mecha were IMO pc enhanced nuclear (fusion typically) and so while the mecha needed reaction mass, and fusion fuel, topped off the pc use was such a slow trickle through the system that it could last for years of operation on the equivalent of 1-2 pc cells used by an alpha

[jaymz]

I know the interpretation I go with right now is the Synchro tech (which if we recall is ALSO sabotaged/ a trap) can be fixed but in order to fix it the shadow tech is rendered inoperative.

[Seto Kaiba]

maybe its interpretation and maybe its just my view but I was always under the impression that protoculture as a fuel not as a tech base per se was a core part of the robotech transformation and adaption systems.

Ah, that'd be somewhat more in line with the way Robotech approached the usage of protoculture in the years before Harmony Gold hired Tommy Yune and had him reboot the continuity. Their original position on its importance was that it was absolutely essential to robotechnology, and that it was a fundamental component without which controlling a transforming robot would've been all but impossible. After the fanbase's en masse rejection of Robotech 3000, Harmony Gold sort of went the other way and reduced its importance bit by bit... until it'd become just another rare and exotic power source with no noteworthy properties. I think that Harmony Gold probably did it to appease the vocal majority who didn't like the novels or the RT3K take on the stuff as pseudo-magical.

The way it's written up in the RPG's current edition, protoculture isn't really necessary for all but a few applications of robotechnology... its usage seems to be more of a matter of convenience, since it makes for compact, high-endurance power supplies.

[ShadowLogan]

In theory, yes... though it's worth noting that that weird AGACs/Defender hybrid is said to use a protoculture reactor rather than a protoculture cell-based system. The Alpha's protoculture cell generator may pose other difficulties, mechanically. (Then there's the RPG's slightly worrying implication that converting hardware from one type of power system to another is extremely dangerous...)

Not quite. While the Ares had the SLMH reactor replaced with a PC reactor (the same as the Windowmaker), they both still run off PC Cells (8 each, 4 and 14days respectively). So we have the PC cells acting more like gas-tanks for a PC reactor rather than the site where the "magic" happens. This also would be consistent with the way the Cyclone ('cycle mode) appears in POV shots in NG#2/Ep62 of the sensor and "Curtain Call" refueling port depiction (VR-041).

WRT the text of the RPG and so on... Corg appears to have been right. The bio-emulator is amplifying and/or tweaking the emissions of a protoculture cell, rather than producing an entirely artificial signature.

The basic point though is not necessarily if the Bio-Emulator was creating a synthetic signature. The basic point is if it is possible under any circumstance to have a synthetic signature. The only place it gets discussed in the show is in connection to the HDBE.

though since cyclones were at least as common as the Alpha fighters, you'd have to wonder why they wouldn't.

There could be a min. size for the actual Shadow Device that prevents the system from being crammed into such a small platform with the available technology of the UEEF (Haydonites may not want to share everything). Plus the Cyclone has little room for internal growth, unlike the other mecha, so it may not be as forgiving with new hardware installation (and the hardware might have certain placement requirements to).

They don't seem to even CONSIDER any passive applications of the stuff in the Invid sensing rules in either the core book or New Gen book.

There may not be any real passive applications of the stuff that don't result in an active PC energy signature though. Consider how many different ways (in general) that there are to detect the release/use of energy (not all apply to all circumstances, and by no means is this a complete list):
-visible light
-heat, IR
-radioactive particles (neutrons, gamma rays, X-rays, etc)
-flow of electrons (which will cause electric/magnetic fields to be created)
-pressure waves/movement
-radio waves, microwaves
-formation of new compounds (fuel cell, internal combustion engine) or atomic atoms (fusion/fission)

Until we can characterize what the emission that is actually detected, "active" PC can really mean anything including non-consumption uses. Now some of these can be characterized similar to the dialogue, while others can't (re: HDBE and SD descriptions in 85ep).

I suppose this could mean that protoculture power systems have to "excite" a raw protoculture fuel into a state where it can discharge its bio-energy, and that what the Invid "see" isn't really the process of generation itself, but rather some kind of characteristic frequency given off by protoculture in that discharge state... like a running generator that isn't supplying current to anything.

Which is what I am getting at. We really do no know what the Invid actually are seeing as "active PC energy", so we really do not know what qualifies as "active PC energy". The characteristic frequency may not even require a permanent discharge of energy (ex. in combustion/nuclear fuel), merely the transfer of energy through it (ex. flow of electrons in a wire) since BY THE RULES some/all PC-Energy Clips are rechargeable.

No, what it points to is that all it takes is what amounts to a trivial amount of energy drain for an active system (such as turning it on so it's 'hot' as it were) to start generating a protoculture signature from something that runs on protoculture.

In the near term the usage is trivial, but in the LONG TERM the amount of energy consumed should matter, but game mechanically it is not accounted for.

There's also no reason to think SLMH still requires some protoculculture, if it did some mention would be made of it. Instead though mention is made of trying to NOT make use of protoculture and switch to an alternative fuel source, you're hardly switching if you still have to use it, that's more of a hybrid fuel system and would require specific mention to accept the existence of it.

Actually there is. SLMH in the real world requires massive amount of pressure if the SLMH is pure Hydrogen (theory predicts creating alloys reduces the required pressure). SLMH only seems to have become possible coincidentally with the arrival and development of RTnology, so PC may be involved in the process. It would also allow one to stretch their supply of PC.

It would also explain why the UEEF didn't simply switch back to SLMH fuel long ago for mecha to get the same benefits as Shadow Tech gives pure PC fuel to Invid Sensors.

As far as mentioning it, you'll notice that SLMH mecha types are specifically identified on the "apply" list for the Invid PC Sensor. So either those mecha use PC in some other fashion, have a "false positive" (coincidence), or SLMH involves PC. Individually a GM can go with any one of these 3 as an explanation for why these supposed PC-free platforms register based on the available information in the RPG and TV series (where SLMH is a figment of the RPG)

We also don't have any reason to think there are 'false-positives' either,

Except the TV series pretty much tells us that a synthetic signature is possible, which can lead to a "false positive".

[Nightmask]

No, what it points to is that all it takes is what amounts to a trivial amount of energy drain for an active system (such as turning it on so it's 'hot' as it were) to start generating a protoculture signature from something that runs on protoculture.

In the near term the usage is trivial, but in the LONG TERM the amount of energy consumed should matter, but game mechanically it is not accounted for.

Because there's little reason to, players would quickly stop leaving things turned on if they hadn't sense enough due to knowing about the sensor to not do so in the first place since it attracts enemy attacks. If they didn't have sense enough to leave things turned off until absolutely necessary well they'd likely end up dead fairly soon anyway waving that big flag saying 'Here we are!' all the time, well before it would matter.

There's also no reason to think SLMH still requires some protoculculture, if it did some mention would be made of it. Instead though mention is made of trying to NOT make use of protoculture and switch to an alternative fuel source, you're hardly switching if you still have to use it, that's more of a hybrid fuel system and would require specific mention to accept the existence of it.

Actually there is. SLMH in the real world requires massive amount of pressure if the SLMH is pure Hydrogen (theory predicts creating alloys reduces the required pressure). SLMH only seems to have become possible coincidentally with the arrival and development of RTnology, so PC may be involved in the process. It would also allow one to stretch their supply of PC.

It would also explain why the UEEF didn't simply switch back to SLMH fuel long ago for mecha to get the same benefits as Shadow Tech gives pure PC fuel to Invid Sensors.

As far as mentioning it, you'll notice that SLMH mecha types are specifically identified on the "apply" list for the Invid PC Sensor. So either those mecha use PC in some other fashion, have a "false positive" (coincidence), or SLMH involves PC. Individually a GM can go with any one of these 3 as an explanation for why these supposed PC-free platforms register based on the available information in the RPG and TV series (where SLMH is a figment of the RPG)

I gather you've skipped or ignored the long back and forth earlier over that, regarding the list being obviously in error for including mecha that don't use protoculture since that's one of the options you leave out that should be obvious. As noted earlier if you had a vehicle that ran on gasoline and converted it to diesel then a list that had the vehicle down as a gasoline-driven vehicle would be in error, it would NOT mean that the vehicle still uses gasoline somehow when it clearly doesn't.

If someone gave me a list of fruits but included some vegetables as well I wouldn't insist that it must mean the vegetables were actually fruits instead I'd logically conclude the list was in error. So when given a list that's supposed to include vehicles that run on protoculture but it includes vehicles that don't then the obvious conclusion is that the list is in error not that they use it anyway when told that they don't.

We also don't have any reason to think there are 'false-positives' either,

Except the TV series pretty much tells us that a synthetic signature is possible, which can lead to a "false positive".

No, that's an intentional effort to create the required signature (which would obviously be easily done just by hooking a protoculture cell to some sort of load, like just tossing an H-90 that's turned on into the bushes would generate a signature as a decoy), that's not a false positive. Deliberate decoys are entirely different than something by some fluke having the ability to generate the same signature in spite of not having protoculture.

[ShadowLogan]

Because there's little reason to, players would quickly stop leaving things turned on if they hadn't sense enough due to knowing about the sensor to not do so in the first place since it attracts enemy attacks. If they didn't have sense enough to leave things turned off until absolutely necessary well they'd likely end up dead fairly soon anyway waving that big flag saying 'Here we are!' all the time, well before it would matter.

Actually the players could use it as an improvised lure. And it isn't like the Invid are going to detect and respond to every activation of PC given that people can use and move around using it with periods of non-contact, so turning it on as a lure could require a large amount of time before it is spotted. From the time the Bio-Emulator was turned on and the Invid arrived, was a good portion of time (enough for a bath, do the dishes for 7 people, have a party).

I gather you've skipped or ignored the long back and forth earlier over that, regarding the list being obviously in error for including mecha that don't use protoculture since that's one of the options you leave out that should be obvious.

I actually took part in that. I do not see the list as in error, since that is an explicit statement that those units are vulnerable to an Invid PC sensor, but there is no explicit statement regarding them now being "Stealthed" towards that sensor. It doesn't come up in the Macross Saga SB, nor the Masters Saga SB, nor the NG SB.

No, that's an intentional effort to create the required signature (which would obviously be easily done just by hooking a protoculture cell to some sort of load, like just tossing an H-90 that's turned on into the bushes would generate a signature as a decoy), that's not a false positive. Deliberate decoys are entirely different than something by some fluke having the ability to generate the same signature in spite of not having protoculture.

Fraid not the Regis says "...almost as if it was being synthetically produced". While the actual detected signal may not be purely Synthetic, the Regis is stating that it is possible to produce a synthetic signal, which allows for "false-positives" to exist.

[Nightmask]

Because there's little reason to, players would quickly stop leaving things turned on if they hadn't sense enough due to knowing about the sensor to not do so in the first place since it attracts enemy attacks. If they didn't have sense enough to leave things turned off until absolutely necessary well they'd likely end up dead fairly soon anyway waving that big flag saying 'Here we are!' all the time, well before it would matter.

Actually the players could use it as an improvised lure. And it isn't like the Invid are going to detect and respond to every activation of PC given that people can use and move around using it with periods of non-contact, so turning it on as a lure could require a large amount of time before it is spotted. From the time the Bio-Emulator was turned on and the Invid arrived, was a good portion of time (enough for a bath, do the dishes for 7 people, have a party).

So you think not even a day qualifies as a 'large amount of time'? No, that's not a lot of time that's pretty quick.

I gather you've skipped or ignored the long back and forth earlier over that, regarding the list being obviously in error for including mecha that don't use protoculture since that's one of the options you leave out that should be obvious.

I actually took part in that. I do not see the list as in error, since that is an explicit statement that those units are vulnerable to an Invid PC sensor, but there is no explicit statement regarding them now being "Stealthed" towards that sensor. It doesn't come up in the Macross Saga SB, nor the Masters Saga SB, nor the NG SB.

Well see, that's where you're in error, you're treating the list not just as being infallible but that it being irrelevant whether or not the vehicles still run on the very thing that's the reason why some of those can be detected and tracked by that sensor when the nature of the list is based on what the sensor detects. I apparently need to repeat this again to explain.

Fact: We have a sensor stated to detect things powered by protoculture. It doesn't detect things that aren't if it did we'd be told it did.

We have a list, a list that is made clear that it's meant to be a non-exhaustive list of some things thought to be powered by protoculture that the sensor would track. It is NOT a list of things that can always be detected by the sensor whether or not they have protoculture in them because the sensor doesn't detect things without it.

The list we have clearly has things on it that don't run on protoculture, if they did it would be made explicitly clear that they do in their write-ups. Being on that list does NOT mean that they must run on it anyway when they explicitly do not, and it's certainly not logical to insist that the write-ups on the vehicles must be wrong and they must run on it anyway.

Removing the protoculture power source from one of those items and replacing it with a non-protoculture power source means it logically no longer belongs on that list, because that list again is only meant to include things that run on protoculture and if you remove the protoculture then logically it can't detected anymore because it no longer has the protoculture that the sensor detects and tracks. It simply cannot remain on the list when only thing that makes it trackable is removed, that's not logical.

There does not need to be some kind of 'well these things are now undetectable' statement because basic logic says that they are, if they went back and said the VF-1 runs on Cheese Whiz they don't have to say 'so now the vehicle doesn't get tracked by the protoculture sensor' because that's self-evident: no protoculture no tracking. The previous list of some vehicles that ran on protoculture at the time ceases to be valid in regards to it, because it now no longer runs on it. The list simply is not and cannot continue to apply to vehicles that don't run on protoculture because its purpose is to only contain things that run on protoculture.

As I pointed out in my previous example, 'this is a list of some vehicles that run on gasoline' stops being valid for any vehicle that no longer runs on gasoline, a vehicle simply can't remain on the list if it now runs on diesel because it's not a list of 'vehicles that run on fossil fuels' but a list of 'vehicles that run on gasoline'. It would be like trying to insist a 2-door car must actually have 4-doors because it was on a list of cars with 4-doors, the list can't possibly be right and it would sound quite bizarre to try and insist that the list had to be right and the car just has some hidden doors and really is a 4-door.

I mean, would you actually honestly insist that the 2-door was a 4-door because it was on a list of 4-door vehicles? Or would you go 'well the list is wrong this vehicle doesn't belong on it because it only has 2-doors not 4'? Because currently you're insisting that a 2-door car is actually a 4-door even when you can see it only has 2-doors for no other reason than it was on a list of 4-door cars.

No, that's an intentional effort to create the required signature (which would obviously be easily done just by hooking a protoculture cell to some sort of load, like just tossing an H-90 that's turned on into the bushes would generate a signature as a decoy), that's not a false positive. Deliberate decoys are entirely different than something by some fluke having the ability to generate the same signature in spite of not having protoculture.

Fraid not the Regis says "...almost as if it was being synthetically produced". While the actual detected signal may not be purely Synthetic, the Regis is stating that it is possible to produce a synthetic signal, which allows for "false-positives" to exist.

Note the 'almost', and again no just because you can deliberately make the signal that does not mean that 'false positives' are possible. From what I remember of the episode the complaint was about the signal being too regular, meaning it appeared like an obvious attempt to bait a trap (that was in the end ignored) rather than having the variations in signal one would expect from a protoculture system being used in a normal fashion. Basically the load was too perfect, it didn't look like what you'd expect from say an H-90 being in active use.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not quite. While the Ares had the SLMH reactor replaced with a PC reactor (the same as the Windowmaker), they both still run off PC Cells (8 each, 4 and 14days respectively).

Actually, isn't the word they use "canister", not "cell"? That may be something different.

There may not be any real passive applications of the stuff that don't result in an active PC energy signature though. Consider how many different ways (in general) that there are to detect the release/use of energy (not all apply to all circumstances, and by no means is this a complete list): [...]

True, though if the Invid ONLY detect a running protoculture power system as the RPG states... then passive applications of protoculture may be non-detectable because they're not emitting that characteristic emission that the Invid have evolved to detect. There's no mention of passive applications that DO emit that energy signature.

Which is what I am getting at. We really do no know what the Invid actually are seeing as "active PC energy", so we really do not know what qualifies as "active PC energy".

Per the text of the RPG, it's power generation and nothing else... but that's perhaps a function of the way HG and the RPG have reduced protoculture's overall relevance to "that power source we use" instead of the main piece of plot-spackle holding Robotech together.

As far as mentioning it, you'll notice that SLMH mecha types are specifically identified on the "apply" list for the Invid PC Sensor. So either those mecha use PC in some other fashion, have a "false positive" (coincidence), or SLMH involves PC.

There's also the option you left out... the one that, as far as Harmony Gold is concerned, is actually correct and most consistent with the text... that the list itself is in error and those mecha don't use protoculture.

[Tiree]

From what I have gathered off of this whole conversation:

The RPG does not do the following:
Cover every aspect of the show
Cover any sense of reality of technology progression
Define what Protoculture is
Define how SLMH is made
Define how the Invid Sensors detect Protoculture

In other words, the RPG has huge gaps!

I have had the chance to talk to Jason Marker several times while he was working for Palladium. His idea's and insights mean a lot more to me about how the RPG was supposed to work than Tommy Yune. But then again I find that Carl Macek had more to say about the Robotech Universe than Tommy too...

With that being said Jason had mentioned the following (and paraphrasing):
1. He had plans on a SLMH and Protoculture Hybrid power source. I am assuming this is probably on some kind of source material that diverges from the planned RT Universe. But it was supposed to be a supercharging energy source, probably something similar to NOS
2. Marines on Tirol had Hovertanks and they did run on Protoculture. Probably a variation of the current Mecha.
3. When I brought up the idea that I was going to describe the SLMH Fuel Stack as a Protoculture Canister/Cell, he liked the idea and not had thought of it.

I also subscribe to the idea that at least for the ASC mecha - the SLMH tanks use Fuel Stacks, and they are interchangeable with Protoculture
Protoculture Chips are in use - and when power is going through them, emulate a protoculture signature. All mecha and PE-Clips use protoculture chips somewhere in their design. It is what gives the mecha excessive maneuverability and ease of use (IE - no need for Mecha Combat Basic)
All Zentraedi, Masters, and Invid Mecha use protoculture canisters of some sort. The Zentraedi and Masters mecha use the protoculture slug, which actually is a PC Canister. The Invid adapted this technology for themselves. So when the Humans designed their new generation of mecha, they utilized the same standardized shape

Somewhere along the line, I expect to see Protoculture be used for everything. From a fuel source, to food, to medicinal. I have it with characteristics of a liquid metal alloy. Conductive, with a very low resistance threshold. But I feel until Protoculture is well defined, and defined I mean able to clearly state shape, size, weight, and where its in, etc... . We are going to have debates like this adnasium. And I doubt it will happen, because they won't want conversions to Rifts to happen with this edition.

[Lt Gargoyle]

but conversions to rifts is what its all about anymore.

I agree with your Tiree, there are to many gaps and no real plan to fix them. So each gm should do as he or she chooses and have fun with it.

[ShadowLogan]

Actually, isn't the word they use "canister", not "cell"? That may be something different.

No they use the term "cell", which is consistent with the Cyclone, Silverback, Alpha, and Beta entries in the Main Book concerning their respective power systems.

In the show though, IINM they use the two interchangably.

True, though if the Invid ONLY detect a running protoculture power system as the RPG states... then passive applications of protoculture may be non-detectable because they're not emitting that characteristic emission that the Invid have evolved to detect. There's no mention of passive applications that DO emit that energy signature.

The problem is how does one define what actually qualifies as an active vs passive application w/re to PC energy use.

Per the text of the RPG, it's power generation and nothing else... but that's perhaps a function of the way HG and the RPG have reduced protoculture's overall relevance to "that power source we use" instead of the main piece of plot-spackle holding Robotech together.

The thing is "power generation" can be detected in a variety of ways, which means you may not actually have to consume PC to be subject to the "power generation" detector.

There's also the option you left out... the one that, as far as Harmony Gold is concerned, is actually correct and most consistent with the text... that the list itself is in error and those mecha don't use protoculture.

HG's "correct view" though really isn't supported by the series and is based on a single line (apparently) that doesn't actually say what they think it does, and ignore other instances of conflicting dialogue. That those mecha may not use PC as a PRIMARY FUEL IS possible, but there is evidence PC can be found in secondary use ("Chips") that can certainly find their way into mecha.

So you think not even a day qualifies as a 'large amount of time'? No, that's not a lot of time that's pretty quick.

"large", "small", etc are to vague of terms and are completely relative. Earth is a large rocky planet in the solar System, but it is positively small next to the gas giant planets or the sun.

Well see, that's where you're in error, you're treating the list not just as being infallible but that it being irrelevant whether or not the vehicles still run on the very thing that's the reason why some of those can be detected and tracked by that sensor when the nature of the list is based on what the sensor detects. I apparently need to repeat this again to explain.

The facts are still the facts. The IPC description does list the mecha as being vulnerable to detection. And there is no mention made in the books previously mentioned that they are now explicitly stealthy. That they have changed primary fuel is noted, but they can still be using PC in other applications found on board them to give them away that don't use up PC as it would in a fuel state (and SLHH itself might involve PC).

Note the 'almost', and again no just because you can deliberately make the signal that does not mean that 'false positives' are possible. From what I remember of the episode the complaint was about the signal being too regular, meaning it appeared like an obvious attempt to bait a trap (that was in the end ignored) rather than having the variations in signal one would expect from a protoculture system being used in a normal fashion. Basically the load was too perfect, it didn't look like what you'd expect from say an H-90 being in active use.

Yes I note the "almost" part. I dismiss is it, because the context relating to "almost" applies to the Bio-Emulator result and not weather such a synthetic signal is possible in any circumstance. You'll note Corg's reply is that he doesn't think humans are capable of such deception, not that a synthetic signal itself is not possible.

[jaymz]

Has anyone seen the puddle of goo that used to be a dead horse?

I am sorry Shadowlogan but it is more logical that the single line from TSC is in partial error than it is to logically stretch that all mecha in two subsequent books MUST have protoculture emissions of some kind due to that one line.

The other side of it is, though, no one would even know the non PC mecha were invisible (relatively speaking) to the Invid PC sensors anyway as they didn't know the Invid HAD PC sensors to begin with. Had they known this with any real amount of time prior to reflex point, to continue to use PC, shadow technology notwithstanding due to it's likely uncommonality overall as opposed to the commonality in reclamation fleet, would be sheer lunacy.

Play it as you wish but the fact is the line says powered by, which would be the cause of the emissions. Not some unsaid, unseen, unpublished source of PC. Without ANYTHING to show PC usage in the Macross and Masters era Mecha, the leap in logic to say they MUST is much farther than leap in logic of the previous list being in partial error.

[Nightmask]

So you think not even a day qualifies as a 'large amount of time'? No, that's not a lot of time that's pretty quick.

"large", "small", etc are to vague of terms and are completely relative. Earth is a large rocky planet in the solar System, but it is positively small next to the gas giant planets or the sun.

All well and good except we're talking in the context of how long a protoculture cell in this case could last in a passive, trickle charge drain situation rather than how much is quickly burned through using it to generate energy blasts. So not even a day is small amount of time over how long we can reasonably expect the cell to hold out when it's not considered a thing to worry about in game else we'd be told that if you left a gun turned on it'd take X amount of time to run down.

Well see, that's where you're in error, you're treating the list not just as being infallible but that it being irrelevant whether or not the vehicles still run on the very thing that's the reason why some of those can be detected and tracked by that sensor when the nature of the list is based on what the sensor detects. I apparently need to repeat this again to explain.

The facts are still the facts. The IPC description does list the mecha as being vulnerable to detection. And there is no mention made in the books previously mentioned that they are now explicitly stealthy. That they have changed primary fuel is noted, but they can still be using PC in other applications found on board them to give them away that don't use up PC as it would in a fuel state (and SLHH itself might involve PC).

Yeah, again, no. That's not a fact, that list does not mean that once it's on the list it's always on the list even when why it qualified for that list is removed. You take the gasoline engine out of a car and replace it with one that runs on propane it's no longer a gasoline engine powered car, period. The car no longer goes on that list of gasoline-powered vehicles and no amount of insisting that it must still run on gasoline for no other reason than it was on a list of gasoline-powered vehicles will make that true.

From your adamant insistence that the car still runs on gasoline even when it doesn't I can only conclude that you in the games you run want to ensure that the players are stuck with their characters having to deal with Invid being able to track them and gain combat bonuses against them by house-ruling the Protoculture sensor as a 'track anything sensor', but feel you need to convince people that it's really canon due to the fact some people consider doing anything not by the book like it was a religious heresy even when the book is clearly in error.

The book is clearly in error, you know the book is in error, you know that those mecha can't actually be tracked by the sensor because they don't run on Protoculture anymore but because you want them trackable anyway you choose to insist that illogical things contrary to the actual facts make sense because it suits your 'I want to make sure the Invid can find them and get an easier chance to hit them' desires.

Note the 'almost', and again no just because you can deliberately make the signal that does not mean that 'false positives' are possible. From what I remember of the episode the complaint was about the signal being too regular, meaning it appeared like an obvious attempt to bait a trap (that was in the end ignored) rather than having the variations in signal one would expect from a protoculture system being used in a normal fashion. Basically the load was too perfect, it didn't look like what you'd expect from say an H-90 being in active use.

Yes I note the "almost" part. I dismiss is it, because the context relating to "almost" applies to the Bio-Emulator result and not weather such a synthetic signal is possible in any circumstance. You'll note Corg's reply is that he doesn't think humans are capable of such deception, not that a synthetic signal itself is not possible.

You dismiss a lot when it disproves your point, which is why you're trying to argue that a trap meant to bait Invid by generating a protoculture signal to you doesn't actually use the very thing that is most logical and rational to use in order to make it function.

[ShadowLogan]

All well and good except we're talking in the context of how long a protoculture cell in this case could last in a passive, trickle charge drain situation rather than how much is quickly burned through using it to generate energy blasts. So not even a day is small amount of time over how long we can reasonably expect the cell to hold out when it's not considered a thing to worry about in game else we'd be told that if you left a gun turned on it'd take X amount of time to run down.

And how long does the RPG actually expect someone to have the system turned on in a standby mode?

The book is clearly in error, you know the book is in error, you know that those mecha can't actually be tracked by the sensor because they don't run on Protoculture anymore but because you want them trackable anyway you choose to insist that illogical things contrary to the actual facts make sense because it suits your 'I want to make sure the Invid can find them and get an easier chance to hit them' desires.

No the book is not in error. All the later books tell us is that PC is not used as the primary fuel/energy source. They can still have PC present in some other application that can give them away (dialogue in the show establishes production and installation of PC chips into circuit boards).

Your car analogy is flawed, since we don't know what the Invid are detecting that they associate with an active gasoline engine. Is it the exhaust, some IR aspect, is it the electric/magnetic field(s) from the flowing electricity to the battery and other electrical systems in the vehicle, etc? Without knowing that, you could say they switch from gasoline to diesel, battery, natural gas, or hydrogen as an energy source thinking you are now safe, but still be detectable to it depending on what they actually are looking for.

You dismiss a lot when it disproves your point, which is why you're trying to argue that a trap meant to bait Invid by generating a protoculture signal to you doesn't actually use the very thing that is most logical and rational to use in order to make it function.

I do not dismiss the dialogue here. The fact is that you seem to be taking the HDBE example differently than intended. It isn't here to show that IT (HDBE) was producing a synthetic signature, it is here to show if it is at all possible to produce a synthetic signature at all.

Is the HDBE producing a pure synthetic signature. No. By all accounts it does not.

However, the dialogue DOES LEAVE OPEN THE POSSIBILITY THAT SUCH A SYNTHETIC SIGNATURE IS POSSIBLE IN GENERAL. And if you can produce a synthetic signature w/o actual protoculture, then you can have a "false-positive"..

[SailorCallie]

From what I have gathered off of this whole conversation:

The RPG does not do the following:
Cover every aspect of the show
Cover any sense of reality of technology progression
Define what Protoculture is
Define how SLMH is made
Define how the Invid Sensors detect Protoculture

Especially the SLMH part, I'd like to learn more about the aforementioned.

[Seto Kaiba]

The RPG does not do the following:
Cover every aspect of the show

It isn't supposed to... and since Harmony Gold is somewhat prone to making knee-jerk changes to things, the RPG can be charitably described as trying to hit a moving target with only marginal success. The natural end result of that process is something that, like the previous edition, often bears just a slight resemblance to its source material.

Cover any sense of reality of technology progression
Define what Protoculture is

Those are flaws in Robotech itself, not the RPG... the lack of a coherent technical progression is mainly brought about by the fact that the original three shows were at wildly different tech levels and the Harmony Gold adaptation (inadvertently) put them in roughly descending order of technological sophistication when it comes to their original settings and depictions of mecha performance. So the end result is that there's that need to explain why a mecha with markedly worse capabilities and performance than the original generation somehow counts as more advanced and worth having... hence Tommy Yune's decision to try and rationalize things by making the poorly-explained multipurpose plot-spackle called protoculture unique to only that very last generation which would otherwise be considered comically inferior.

Define how SLMH is made

To be fair, Tommy made it sound like Palladium picked it because they thought it sounded cool... rather than because they'd actually picked it for practical reasons.

Define how the Invid Sensors detect Protoculture

First they'd have to define how protoculture works... and that's something they'll never do because it's pretty much impossible to find an explanation that fits the mutually contradictory depictions of the stuff.

In other words, the RPG has huge gaps!

Did anyone else read this and immediately think of that narmy line from that one Doom comic about huge guts?

I have had the chance to talk to Jason Marker several times while he was working for Palladium. His idea's and insights mean a lot more to me about how the RPG was supposed to work than Tommy Yune. But then again I find that Carl Macek had more to say about the Robotech Universe than Tommy too...

Whether Harmony Gold would've actually approved any of that... well, I doubt it. Tommy seems to want the series to distance itself from protoculture as much as possible. The way RTSC set things up, it feels like he'd planned to get rid of protoculture for good and have humanity adopt whatever protoculture-free system that the Haydonites use, effectively eliminating the reason for any more wars. I suppose we'll find out later, but I bet they'd can the idea of Marines on Tirol using hover tanks too... considering Harmony Gold panders to the fandom's general antipathy for the Masters Saga and Southern Cross Army.

No they use the term "cell", which is consistent with the Cyclone, Silverback, Alpha, and Beta entries in the Main Book concerning their respective power systems.

I wasn't talking about those, though... but rather, the protoculture reactors that the IMUs had... I'm pretty sure they say canisters instead of cells.

Oh, hmm... they actually say "canisters" in one sentence, and "cells" in the very next one.

The problem is how does one define what actually qualifies as an active vs passive application w/re to PC energy use.

Per the RPG, the only described active use is power generation...

The thing is "power generation" can be detected in a variety of ways, which means you may not actually have to consume PC to be subject to the "power generation" detector.

Strictly speaking, if a power source is enabled it's consuming fuel even if it's just at a slow rate...

HG's "correct view" though [...]

Is the only one that really matters in the long run, for purposes of factuality... they're the ones who are the ultimate arbiter of what is and what ain't for Robotech.

No the book is not in error. All the later books tell us is that PC is not used as the primary fuel/energy source.

Strictly speaking, it really and truly is in error... because it describes the mecha of the first two sagas as being protoculture-powered and we know they're not. In order for there to be protoculture systems there for Invid sensors to detect, they would have to actually be listed in the stats (for the RPG's purposes). The rules do not mention or address the subject of anything being detectable apart from protoculture energy generation.

[Nightmask]

All well and good except we're talking in the context of how long a protoculture cell in this case could last in a passive, trickle charge drain situation rather than how much is quickly burned through using it to generate energy blasts. So not even a day is small amount of time over how long we can reasonably expect the cell to hold out when it's not considered a thing to worry about in game else we'd be told that if you left a gun turned on it'd take X amount of time to run down.

And how long does the RPG actually expect someone to have the system turned on in a standby mode?

Doesn't matter now does it? Just that we know that something in standby like a weapon is enough to make the power cell emit the protoculture signature.

The book is clearly in error, you know the book is in error, you know that those mecha can't actually be tracked by the sensor because they don't run on Protoculture anymore but because you want them trackable anyway you choose to insist that illogical things contrary to the actual facts make sense because it suits your 'I want to make sure the Invid can find them and get an easier chance to hit them' desires.

No the book is not in error. All the later books tell us is that PC is not used as the primary fuel/energy source. They can still have PC present in some other application that can give them away (dialogue in the show establishes production and installation of PC chips into circuit boards).

Yes the book is clearly in error. The later books make it clear that they don't run on protoculture, they don't say 'protoculture is used as a secondary fuel/power source' so there is no protoculture used to power anything on them, if there were we'd be told about having to renew it at some point (even in the original books the first Veritechs are said to have a 20 year power supply, even though it wouldn't come up in practical terms in a campaign to run out of fuel).

Using protoculture in the creation of microchips doesn't constitute the mecha running on protoculture, and while we see and here mention of 'protoculture chips' we don't have anything that says those chips specifically go into mecha at all, and if those chips were all it took to be detectable we wouldn't have the list make it clear that they detect protoculture POWER sources, not protoculture CHIPS.

Your car analogy is flawed, since we don't know what the Invid are detecting that they associate with an active gasoline engine. Is it the exhaust, some IR aspect, is it the electric/magnetic field(s) from the flowing electricity to the battery and other electrical systems in the vehicle, etc? Without knowing that, you could say they switch from gasoline to diesel, battery, natural gas, or hydrogen as an energy source thinking you are now safe, but still be detectable to it depending on what they actually are looking for.

My car analogy is just fine, since the sensor specifically says it tracks protoculture power sources, all of your examples would mean it's not tracking protoculture power sources but things not related to protoculture. So basically you're arguing that the book is wrong and that the sensor doesn't track protoculture at all and works on anything. So the basic fact of the book and anime, that they have a sensor that tracks things that run on protoculture, is something you're now saying is wrong. All to insist that a list that's supposed to derive from what the sensor can track doesn't track anything related to the sensor restrictions at all and instead completely contrary to the sensor's stated purpose it instead tracks everything.

You dismiss a lot when it disproves your point, which is why you're trying to argue that a trap meant to bait Invid by generating a protoculture signal to you doesn't actually use the very thing that is most logical and rational to use in order to make it function.

I do not dismiss the dialogue here. The fact is that you seem to be taking the HDBE example differently than intended. It isn't here to show that IT (HDBE) was producing a synthetic signature, it is here to show if it is at all possible to produce a synthetic signature at all.

Is the HDBE producing a pure synthetic signature. No. By all accounts it does not.

However, the dialogue DOES LEAVE OPEN THE POSSIBILITY THAT SUCH A SYNTHETIC SIGNATURE IS POSSIBLE IN GENERAL. And if you can produce a synthetic signature w/o actual protoculture, then you can have a "false-positive"..

You really don't understand or just don't want to understand what a false positive is, that an intentional attempt to replicate something has nothing to do with and provides no basis at all for the idea that false positives are also possible. Protoculture is sufficiently unusual it's quite likely that it's impossible for something to accidentally create such a false positive, that only by intent can you create such a signal. Just like you can't have something accidentally fold you somewhere but have to intentionally build something to make it happen.

[Tiree]

Define how SLMH is made

To be fair, Tommy made it sound like Palladium picked it because they thought it sounded cool... rather than because they'd actually picked it for practical reasons.

It was actually picked because Palladium had a Rocket Scientist as a technical adviser...

From what I gathered is that HG/Tommy rubber stamps whatever goes through the Palladium meat grinder. They just make sure any large chunks of gristle doesn't make it into the book.

[glitterboy2098]

metallic hydrogen is supposed to be produced at high pressures, like those inside gas giants. the stabilized liquid form is beleived to form at a specific set of pressures where it becomes metastable and retains its metallic state even after pressure is removed.

if i had to guess, SLMH would be produced using antigrav generators, probably powered by dedicated nuclear reactors*, set up to compress hydrogen within a specific area. basically a 'pinch' system where raw hydrogen is fed in on one side, the SLMH comes out he other. things like ionizing lasers might play a role too (those, and the use of lithium catalysts, have been suggested as ways to produce metallic hydrogen at lower pressures)

*because earth didn't know they had an unlimited supply of PC from the matrix on the SDF-1, they obviously weren't using it extensively at the time. frankly i wouldn't be surprised to find out the reflex furnaces they were using employed SLMH rather than PC.. might explain why they were so huge..

[Jefffar]

So in other words, SLMH is very hard to produce?

[glitterboy2098]

heck yeah.. you need a fairly major super high tech scifi industrial infrastructure to even begin to think about it. and since the UEEF hasn't been using it for their main stuff, i doubt they have many facilities to produce the material already built and online. and building such facilities would likely take more than a year, even if only assuming normal start up problems common to any big industrial project.. much less all the things that could really get screwed up.

the only reason earth would use it in macross and southern cross saga's is that between earths oceans, jupiter and saturn's atmospheres, the kuiper belt, and the oort cloud.. the supply of hydrogen in the sol system alone is pretty much unlimited. while even after salvaging from the grand fleet, their supply of protoculture is finite. in macross saga they're relying entirely on the contents of the SDF-1's fuel tanks.. and since they didn't find the matrix back in 1999, they obviously weren't siphoning off all that much. people would notice when a ship contains a supply of fuel greater than the ships total volume.
and if you beleive that they knew the exact location of the matrix before leaving earth (i don't*), they still buried the thing where it couldn't be used, and left the ASC thinking that the supply of protoculture they had in storage was the whole amount earth would have access to for the next couple centuries (minimum).. you can bet they stuck to SLMH so they could ration the PC use, since PC is the only stuff that makes earth's FTL starships work. think peak oil, but with no real option to stop using oil to fuel your ocean going transports and warships, while facing a hostile naval power. you'd resort to any other option for anything you can avoid using oil for. but in your navy you'd use oil for some of those things just to make logistics simpler on a ship.


*i suspect they knew it was in the ruins of the SDF-1, but not where, and had little desire to dismantle a massive radioactive wargrave to find out. not telling the ASC would simply be a case of "if we tell them, they'll rip the SDF-1 apart to find it"

[Jefffar]

Huh.

So probably the Protoculture fueled reflex furnaces were used to make SLMH initially. I wonder if this could have left SLMH with elements of a Protoculture signature.

[glitterboy2098]

given they didn't even know what the stuff was at the time, i doubt they used protoculture fueled anything to make SLMH. more likely they just hooked several fission reactors together.. basically mcguyvering sufficent power. if the antigravity fields were focused enough, you probably wouldn't need a lot of power (at least compared to floating a multi-megatonne starship)

[ShadowLogan]

I wasn't talking about those, though... but rather, the protoculture reactors that the IMUs had... I'm pretty sure they say canisters instead of cells.

Oh, hmm... they actually say "canisters" in one sentence, and "cells" in the very next one.

The two seem to be interchangeable in use/meaning as it is shown in the series. The Ares mentions both, depending on the heading and the Widowmaker only uses "cells". The "railgun" uses "canisters". Technically the Condor and Conbat mention PC reactors, but they also have the same standard equipment as the Alpha and Beta (in other words they use Cells too, at least by a strict interpretation. it also leaves open the possibilities of "Shadow" variants I would think to).

Per the RPG, the only described active use is power generation...

Not quite. They put an emphasis in the text on "actively using Protoculture Energy", but that doesn't mean the material has to be consumed given that in certain applications PC can be recharged per the RPG (ex Eu-13). So you could have PC acting as a capacitor (or other rechargable aspect) that is charged from conventional energy, and when it discharges... That would be a more efficient use of a limited supply for the UEDF eras than using the material as a primary fuel source for every mecha (leaving the main drain on the supply to the starship RF and FD).

Strictly speaking, it really and truly is in error... because it describes the mecha of the first two sagas as being protoculture-powered and we know they're not. In order for there to be protoculture systems there for Invid sensors to detect, they would have to actually be listed in the stats (for the RPG's purposes). The rules do not mention or address the subject of anything being detectable apart from protoculture energy generation.

The only reason I can see that it would not mentioned PC is if the PC is present in a secondary role as part of a sub-system in a recharable position (as opposed to consumption) where re-fueling is not necessary. Or SLMH actually involves PC on some level.

So probably the Protoculture fueled reflex furnaces were used to make SLMH initially. I wonder if this could have left SLMH with elements of a Protoculture signature.

It really depends on what the Protoculture signature actually is, and how SLMH responds to that type of signal if an imprint can be made on it.

Doesn't matter now does it? Just that we know that something in standby like a weapon is enough to make the power cell emit the protoculture signature.

Yes actually it should matter. If you leave the weapon on long enough, when does it start consuming shots, or how long will one shot worth of PC last to act as bait.

Yes the book is clearly in error. The later books make it clear that they don't run on protoculture, they don't say 'protoculture is used as a secondary fuel/power source' so

No the book isn't. The later books make it clear the main fuel isn't PC, but they are sufficiently vague about subsystems that PC can be used in those roles using a "rechargable PC cells" present based on the original entry. No one says the resistance seeks out SLMH vehicles/mecha for their stealthiness in the NG SB.

You really don't understand or just don't want to understand what a false positive is

A false-postive is basically when you detect something that is not actually present.

Protoculture is sufficiently unusual it's quite likely that it's impossible for something to accidentally create such a false positive, that only by intent can you create such a signal.

The problem here we actually do not know what is being detected based on the dialogue. We know it is associated with PC energy by the Invid, but we can not characterize it beyond that.

And it would not be impossible for someone or something thing to accidentally create a false-positive. Improbable maybe, but not impossible. And if systems are based upon PC using systems, they have even better odds at replicating "IT", since we don't know what "IT" actually is.

[Seto Kaiba]

From what I gathered is that HG/Tommy rubber stamps whatever goes through the Palladium meat grinder. They just make sure any large chunks of gristle doesn't make it into the book.

Really? Because Tommy gave me quite the opposite impression... that he actually does read this stuff, with an intent to can anything that flies too boldly in the face of the direction he wants the series to go in. That's why I'm rather dubious that a protoculture-powered hover tank would pass unchallenged... or a protoculture/SLMH hybrid engine. Tommy seems pretty fixated on pandering to the general anti-Masters sentiment and minimizing protoculture's importance.

So in other words, SLMH is very hard to produce?

With modern technology... it's impossible.

If you can control gravity? Then it should be child's play.

Not quite. They put an emphasis in the text on "actively using Protoculture Energy", [...]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in order to actively be using protoculture energy they'd have to have an active protoculture power source either in or connected to the device in question.

The only reason I can see that it would not mentioned PC is if the PC is present in a secondary role as part of a sub-system in a recharable position (as opposed to consumption) where re-fueling is not necessary. Or SLMH actually involves PC on some level.

There's no evidence that protoculture is a truly "rechargeable" resource... recharging cells seems to be more on the order of replenishment. However, if it was a rechargeable subsystem power source, we'd expect to see it listed like we do the capacitor banks for various guns.

Yes actually it should matter. If you leave the weapon on long enough, when does it start consuming shots, or how long will one shot worth of PC last to act as bait.

True, but the question is whether the idle state power consumption is enough to actually cause a noticeable drain on the protoculture power cells driving something like a Gallant. It may simply be that whatever "smart keep-alive" the Gallant and other energy small arms use just doesn't draw enough juice to start depleting the cells noticeably (as in, losing shots) within what could be considered a reasonable span of time... say, a day, week, month. For instance, the PHEV I'm currently sitting next to could, if we kept it in a warm, dry place, maintain its keep-alive function off battery power for weeks without more than a minute loss of range on its battery pack.

No the book isn't. The later books make it clear the main fuel isn't PC, but they are sufficiently vague about subsystems that PC can be used in those roles using a "rechargable PC cells" present based on the original entry. No one says the resistance seeks out SLMH vehicles/mecha for their stealthiness in the NG SB.

No source says SLMH vehicles are detectable... the main book asserts the VF-1, destroids, etc. are powered by protoculture PERIOD. There is no mention of secondary fuels or sub-systems using protoculture, therefore for rules purposes there is no protoculture there.

[ShadowLogan]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in order to actively be using protoculture energy they'd have to have an active protoculture power source either in or connected to the device in question.

And a discharging rechargeable PC-energy cell (which a capacitor role can be) doesn't qualify as "active PC" now given the EU-13 entry?

There's no evidence that protoculture is a truly "rechargeable" resource... recharging cells seems to be more on the order of replenishment. However, if it was a rechargeable subsystem power source, we'd expect to see it listed like we do the capacitor banks for various guns.

Well they don't qualify what they mean by "rechargeable", but it appears in the EU-13 entry, and one of the mechanical skills description (in two places) off the top of my head. And just because something can be recharged, doesn't mean it can do so indefinitely.

Why would they need to indicate a rechargeable subsystem like a capacitor when such things can be found in lots of electronics devices that certainly made their way into mecha designs? Capacitors do not need to be used for the guns only, they ARE in the various circuit boards (computer, radio, monitors, etc), radar, and other electronics that are without question present in mecha.

True, but the question is whether the idle state power consumption is enough to actually cause a noticeable drain on the protoculture power cells driving something like a Gallant...

Agreed that is part of the question. In the short term, the "idle" drain will be minimal, but in the long term that "idle" use should impact performance. The problem is "long term" really isn't defined or considered by the writers (not the first time Palladium has missed something like this with their RPG lines).

No source says SLMH vehicles are detectable... the main book asserts the VF-1, destroids, etc. are powered by protoculture PERIOD. There is no mention of secondary fuels or sub-systems using protoculture, therefore for rules purposes there is no protoculture there.

Unless you ignore the entry in the Main Book that says PC is used by those specific mecha in some form. The later books only require the PC to be pushed to a role where they are not the primary fuel, but still involved in the power system (like a Capacitor). And by the show, we know that PC found its way into roles in electronics (chips), and the RPG establishes the idea that there are applications where it is "rechargeable", so there is certainly precedent enough from both sources that PC can be present in a non-fuel role to give it away as "actively using PC energy (since the components are discharging energy in a manner of speaking).

[glitterboy2098]

i would also point out that 'recharge' can also apply in non-electrical situations. refilling a propane tank, compressed air bottle, and similar is often called recharging. the EU-13 might not have a battery, instead a tank of PC it uses in a powerplant of some kind to generate power for the gun. given that protoculture is described as a physical material in the show, this would make some sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

glitterboy2098 pretty much beat me to the punch with what I was going to say WRT "recharging".

As far as the rest, just re-read one of my previous posts about the text explicitly identifying the VF-1 et. al. as protoculture powered when they're not.

[eliakon]

glitterboy2098 pretty much beat me to the punch with what I was going to say WRT "recharging".

As far as the rest, just re-read one of my previous posts about the text explicitly identifying the VF-1 et. al. as protoculture powered when they're not.

Yerp, if you get to define the term "Protoculture Powered" to mean "explicitly uses protoculture as its primary/sole source of motive power, and must be mentioned as such in the text" then you are correct. If you don't get the luxury of defining the term so as to have the conclusion be a part of the premise, then its not so cut and dried.

[jaymz]

It isn't luxury. A mecha using protoculture in any form is a pretty important piece of information which the single line in TSC does not prove they do since as it has already beaten to death that line predates the change by HG in regards to protoculture use by earlier generation mecha. Continuing to assign such a thing to those mecha is illogical.

[eliakon]

It isn't luxury. A mecha using protoculture in any form is a pretty important piece of information which the single line in TSC does not prove they do since as it has already beaten to death that line predates the change by HG in regards to protoculture use by earlier generation mecha. Continuing to assign such a thing to those mecha is illogical.

If its so important though, then why not have a line that says their was an error? This logic goes both ways.

[Nightmask]

It isn't luxury. A mecha using protoculture in any form is a pretty important piece of information which the single line in TSC does not prove they do since as it has already beaten to death that line predates the change by HG in regards to protoculture use by earlier generation mecha. Continuing to assign such a thing to those mecha is illogical.

If its so important though, then why not have a line that says their was an error? This logic goes both ways.

Because you shouldn't require a line for people to recognize that 'well this doesn't go on this list anymore because it no longer fits the criteria', one should be able to manage the basics of going 'this list is supposed to only list proto-culture powered items, if it lists one that isn't then it must be removed from the list' NOT 'well it's on a list of things that are supposed to be protoculture powered so even though everything says it doesn't it must still do so'. The logic doesn't go both ways.

If you put a blind person on a list of sighted people that list is obviously in error, you don't need a note later on saying 'this list is in error that blind person doesn't go on it' you should be able to manage that much yourself. It's such an obvious thing there shouldn't be a need to make an obvious note about the error, that's a convenience not a requirement (and Palladium hardly has reason to reprint the books over such a tiny error that people should be able to make the corrections about themselves instead of insisting the error isn't an error and that everything else is in error).

[eliakon]

It isn't luxury. A mecha using protoculture in any form is a pretty important piece of information which the single line in TSC does not prove they do since as it has already beaten to death that line predates the change by HG in regards to protoculture use by earlier generation mecha. Continuing to assign such a thing to those mecha is illogical.

If its so important though, then why not have a line that says their was an error? This logic goes both ways.

Because you shouldn't require a line for people to recognize that 'well this doesn't go on this list anymore because it no longer fits the criteria', one should be able to manage the basics of going 'this list is supposed to only list proto-culture powered items, if it lists one that isn't then it must be removed from the list' NOT 'well it's on a list of things that are supposed to be protoculture powered so even though everything says it doesn't it must still do so'. The logic doesn't go both ways.

If you put a blind person on a list of sighted people that list is obviously in error, you don't need a note later on saying 'this list is in error that blind person doesn't go on it' you should be able to manage that much yourself. It's such an obvious thing there shouldn't be a need to make an obvious note about the error, that's a convenience not a requirement (and Palladium hardly has reason to reprint the books over such a tiny error that people should be able to make the corrections about themselves instead of insisting the error isn't an error and that everything else is in error).

Again this is defining the question. Yes if your definition of 'emits protoculture energy' is 'uses protoculture as is main power' then its an error. That however is not explicitly stated in the books, there for it is an assumption to claim that is the definition. As has been shown there are other possible uses of protoculture that would still fit both books. Thus if there are two possible interpretations, one that supports a printed book, and one that invalidates a printed book, I think it is reasonable to ask that there be an actual line invalidating something rather than just an assumption that 'this is how it works, even though we are not told that explicitly'.
This is not about blind people, using an unrelated absurd example does not do anything to invalidate the current actual issue.

[jaymz]

As it pertains to Macros and master era mecha, it doesn't say that it DOES use protoculture either. A single line that is demonstrably in error in a book not containing those mecha does not make it so.

[Jefffar]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

The idea that a subsystem on the UEDF and ASC mecha may use and emit protoculture energy is just an explanation to fit the existing rule.

[Nightmask]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

The idea that a subsystem on the UEDF and ASC mecha may use and emit protoculture energy is just an explanation to fit the existing rule.

I think I already noted that a list of vehicles thought to run on protoculture doesn't constitute a rule, the rule is 'this sensor tracks things that run on protoculture due to their protoculture emissions'. If a vehicle says it runs on or was converted to something that's not protoculture then it by definition doesn't go on the list because it no longer qualifies for the list. So claiming that 'well they must run on protoculture somewhere because they're on THE LIST' is assuming facts not in evidence, if they aren't explicitly said to run on protoculture then they don't and don't go on the list.

To put it another way, you have THE LIST of vehicles that DON'T run on protoculture, only for someone to refit one (say an electric car) so it runs on protoculture. Would you then argue that because it's explicitly on a list of vehicles that don't run on protoculture then the sensor can't track it, even though it's been explicitly altered to do so? I would hope not. So why then treat a list that's supposed to be derived from a rule as being sacrosanct and without error to the point of insisting that everything on the list must always be valid and remain on the list when the rule it derives from no longer applies? Because that list definitely is not a rule, the rule is regarding what the sensor tracks, the list itself is subject to the actual rule and is factually in error if it lists things that don't fit the rule, and one certainly can't say the information on all the other vehicles being no longer Protoculture-powered to be wrong because it requires insisting on things not factually known to exist in regards to them and to be directly contrary to what is said to be factually known to exist about them.

I mean I can't see why anyone would insist that that list is somehow a rule or that the actual rule isn't what it actually is when it requires contradicting so many other things, other than out of some need to slap a 'canon seal of approval' on the idea so you can give extra combat bonuses to the Invid against all the Earth mecha the Player characters are using even when the bonus shouldn't be there. Because some of the responses have left me with a 'oh no we can't have the PC running around with mecha that don't show up on the Invid sensors!' vibe.