Better GB Killer!

[Zer0 Kay]

Too many quotes there Zer0 Kay your comments must have gotten cut off.

No... my stupid phone sucks. I ended up typing it in someone else's quote because I thought it was the bottom, cuz my phone wouldn't go down any farther. I thought it was the last line.

Sure sure blame the technology

I will its all out to get me.

[Zer0 Kay]

Still the CS centaur had issues firing the mini-missiles from the small conversion from robot to centaur, let alone robot or power armor. If it could even at-least drive something the size of a minivan, that's all I'd need!

mAybe it had nothing to do with the body form but because there are some issues with the CSs minimissile launcher.

It is a bit more complicated going from two to four legs than it is going from 6 to 40 feet tall.

[Zer0 Kay]

Too many quotes there Zer0 Kay your comments must have gotten cut off.

No... my stupid phone sucks. I ended up typing it in someone else's quote because I thought it was the bottom, cuz my phone wouldn't go down any farther. I thought it was the last line.

Sure sure blame the technology

Operator, Headspace, and Timing.

is that anything like a railgun has a magnet at the end of it

[Thinyser]

hehe

[GBAnnihilator]

Too many quotes there Zer0 Kay your comments must have gotten cut off.

No... my stupid phone sucks. I ended up typing it in someone else's quote because I thought it was the bottom, cuz my phone wouldn't go down any farther. I thought it was the last line.

Sure sure blame the technology

Operator, Headspace, and Timing.

is that anything like a railgun has a magnet at the end of it

I just shoot the things, I was probably just going off some old game.

[Killer Cyborg]

I d'now... It seems to me that the best Glitter Boy killer has already been invented. The Flying Titan. A dozen mini missiles, and it flies at 400 Mi/hr. If you need anything close combat wise, a vibro sword will work. The other benefit is that they are cheap relatively.

Interesting choice!

The most obvious downside to the Flying Titan against a GB is the relatively low 180 MDC. On a good roll of the dice, a GB could one-shot a FT.
The high speed (400 mph) that you note would provide the FT to either close in, or to keep out of range, with pretty fair effectiveness.
The dozen mini-missiles that it can carry could provide significant firepower, but they can only be fired in volleys of 4 maximum. Even with a high-end mini-missile, that's only 4d6x10 MD (40-240 MD, with an average of 140 MD) per attack.
If you hit with all 12 minis, using plasma missiles, that's 12d6x10 MD total damage from the missiles (assuming that all 12 hit), for an average of 420 MD. That's going to be significant damage against a GB, but it's NOT going to kill it. You'd need to pretty much roll all 6s for damage in order to kill the GB (720 MDC) AND you'd still have to polish off the GB with other weapons.

A better bet, I think, would be to use the option to carry Short Range missiles instead. You can only carry 6 of them total, but even though the total maximum damage range would be the same (12d6x10 MD), you could dish it out in a lower number of attacks. More importantly, you could dish it out from farther away: Short Range Armor Piercing Missiles, for example, have a range of 5 miles.
The GB can't shoot much past 2 miles.
In theory, you could dish out that average 420 MD, and the GB couldn't even shoot back.
In theory.

In practice... well, missiles can be shot down.
A Boom Gun is pretty much a guaranteed kill against any incoming missile, assuming a decent strike roll is made. At the least, that means dropping the volley by 1 missile (-1d6x10 MD for a mini-missile volley, or -2d6x10 MD for a short range missile volley), plus there's a 30% chance that half the other missiles will get blown up, or a 40% chance that the entire volley will be destroyed.
So if you're flat-out attacking the GB from out of range, he's going to have 1-2 chances to shoot down your entire volley of missiles.

The work-around for this would be to fire missile volleys as simultaneous attacks (if your GM allows that with ranged weapons), preventing the GB from defending against them. BUT that's not going to work if you're out of range- you can only simo when the GB is actually attacking you.
And the Flying Titan doesn't have enough MDC to trade blows with a GB for long- two average hits will kill you.

So even though missiles can be formidable, I don't think it'd work out that well in this case, not one-on-one.
That leaves the wing lasers (1d6 MD vs a GB, which is effectively useless), hand to hand (don't bother!), or a rifle carried by the pilot.
The rifle really isn't that bad of an option. The CS CTT-P40 Particle Beam Rifle only weighs like 89 lbs (iirc), and the Flying Titan provides augmented PS of 24, which means that you can carry 480 lbs, which is more than enough to use that rifle. That'd give you a decent finishing weapon, at 1d6x10 MD, as long as you're in 2,000'.

Better still, there's the CTT-M20 Missile Rifle. It weighs 110 lbs, which is still plenty light for something with PS 24. The built-in laser would be as useless as the wing lasers, but it can fire mini missiles in volleys of up to 4. Which means 4d6x10 MD, for up to 5 attacks.
Actually, PS 24 is high enough to use that weapon one-handed, so you could carry TWO of these things, firing them paired, for a potential of 8d6x10 MD per attack... although that would mean a penalty of -3 to strike with your primary hand, and -7 to strike with your other hand, not counting possible WP bonuses and such.
But you'd still be dead in 2 average hits from the Boom Gun.

Also, the Flying Titan isn't a CS product, so I don't see them using it.

A pair of Flying Titans, armed with CTT-P40s, might give a GB a good run for its money, potentially killing it.
To be sure, I'd throw 4 at it, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

After analyzing the Flying Titan vs. GB scenario, I've come to really like the CS missile Rifle, and I think that it'd be a powerful force against a GB.

With that in mind, I think that a CS Combat Borg might well be the best option.

Main Body: 280 MDC, plus MI-B2 Medium Infantry Armor: 230 MDC.
Total MDC: 510
Robotic PS 36
PP 26
Speed 176 (120 mph)

Additional Hands & Arms (PS 20, PP 20)
Retractable vibro-blades in every arm (2d6 MD each)
Jetpack of some kind (built in, or just slap something on him)

Give him three of the CTT-M20 Missile rifles, so he can use them paired (-1* with primary hand, -5 with off hand) (no penalty, due to high PS) with his main hands, and dual-hand the third (I'd go with the -5 to strike for this as well, just to balance things a bit) with his extra limbs.
*The CTT-M20 has a built-in laser targeting sight that provides a flat +1 to strike)
1 mile range, with a potential damage output of 12d6x10 MD per attack (average of 410 MD). Even if the GB shoots one of the incoming missile volleys, and the entire volley detonates, that still leaves two more volleys coming at him for 8d6x10 MD (average of 280 MD).

If the GB focuses his fire on YOU, it'll take him an average of 5 hits to kill you (Boom Gun does an average of 105 MD per attack, and the borg has 510 MDC).
But if he focuses his fire on YOU, then all your missiles will get through (assuming successful strike rolls), and you'll drop the GB in 2 attacks, so he'll be dead if he tries to slug it out.
If the GB plays defensively, trying to shoot down incoming volleys, then he's not shooting YOU, and you can keep up combat until you run out of ammo or the GB dies (and the GB is going to die first.

[Mack]

Still the CS centaur had issues firing the mini-missiles from the small conversion from robot to centaur,

No, it has no issue firing the missiles. The location negatively affected the overall balance.

[GBAnnihilator]

After analyzing the Flying Titan vs. GB scenario, I've come to really like the CS missile Rifle, and I think that it'd be a powerful force against a GB.

With that in mind, I think that a CS Combat Borg might well be the best option.

Main Body: 280 MDC, plus MI-B2 Medium Infantry Armor: 230 MDC.
Total MDC: 510
Robotic PS 36
PP 26
Speed 176 (120 mph)

Additional Hands & Arms (PS 20, PP 20)
Retractable vibro-blades in every arm (2d6 MD each)
Jetpack of some kind (built in, or just slap something on him)

Give him three of the CTT-M20 Missile rifles, so he can use them paired (-1* with primary hand, -5 with off hand) (no penalty, due to high PS) with his main hands, and dual-hand the third (I'd go with the -5 to strike for this as well, just to balance things a bit) with his extra limbs.
*The CTT-M20 has a built-in laser targeting sight that provides a flat +1 to strike)
1 mile range, with a potential damage output of 12d6x10 MD per attack (average of 410 MD). Even if the GB shoots one of the incoming missile volleys, and the entire volley detonates, that still leaves two more volleys coming at him for 8d6x10 MD (average of 280 MD).

If the GB focuses his fire on YOU, it'll take him an average of 5 hits to kill you (Boom Gun does an average of 105 MD per attack, and the borg has 510 MDC).
But if he focuses his fire on YOU, then all your missiles will get through (assuming successful strike rolls), and you'll drop the GB in 2 attacks, so he'll be dead if he tries to slug it out.
If the GB plays defensively, trying to shoot down incoming volleys, then he's not shooting YOU, and you can keep up combat until you run out of ammo or the GB dies (and the GB is going to die first.

Awesome, I'll make that in my next game!

[Slight001]

Still the CS centaur had issues firing the mini-missiles from the small conversion from robot to centaur, let alone robot or power armor. If it could even at-least drive something the size of a minivan, that's all I'd need!

you did actually bother reading the text right?

It's experimental only 12 have been made and no more will be created. Moreover there is no mention of a failure to effectively use/fire the mini-missiles. The besides the failure to be truly superior to a conventional humanoid frame it is considered to inhuman/alien and therefore is not up for continued development.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the GB focuses his fire on YOU, it'll take him an average of 5 hits to kill you (Boom Gun does an average of 105 MD per attack, and the borg has 510 MDC).
But if he focuses his fire on YOU, then all your missiles will get through (assuming successful strike rolls), and you'll drop the GB in 2 attacks, so he'll be dead if he tries to slug it out.
If the GB plays defensively, trying to shoot down incoming volleys, then he's not shooting YOU, and you can keep up combat until you run out of ammo or the GB dies (and the GB is going to die first.

Brutal and efficient, add in simultaneous attack and jobs done. Nice.

Thanks!

I think the GB's best strategy would be to not attack, to try to wait out the Borg until the Borg attacked.
Then the GB should Dodge and/or Block Sacrifice.
If the Borg picks explosive missiles instead of AP or Plasma, then Rolling with Impact could be an option as well.
If the Borg runs out of missiles, then the GB can win the day (or, at least, survive it).

The GB could try to close in (using attacks only to move and dodge) for melee, but I think the Borg would have the edge in melee. It's physically stronger than the GB by 6 points, and it has four arms. It could grab the GB's arms with its main arms, and use the secondary arms to whittle the GB down with its vibro-blades, for example.
Give the Borg a Tail as well, just for another option.
Of course, in order to fight effectively in melee, the borg would have to drop its guns. A clever GB might close for melee, then try to chuck the guns in a lake or something, then run off for ranged combat... but the Borg's going to be stronger and faster (runs roughly 2x as fast as the GB), so that probably wouldn't work.

[GBAnnihilator]

Still the CS centaur had issues firing the mini-missiles from the small conversion from robot to centaur, let alone robot or power armor. If it could even at-least drive something the size of a minivan, that's all I'd need!

you did actually bother reading the text right?

It's experimental only 12 have been made and no more will be created. Moreover there is no mention of a failure to effectively use/fire the mini-missiles. The besides the failure to be truly superior to a conventional humanoid frame it is considered to inhuman/alien and therefore is not up for continued development.

I don't have the book, but the point was is that I was just going to use an actual pilot for the Coalition version of the Rocket Bike.

[Killer Cyborg]

The thing is, at 400mph, I could fly around the GB and he would have a negative to hit me from the speed.

THAT is kind of one of Rifts' tragically under-explained areas.
Yes, according to RUE 361, shooting at a moving target means that you're -1 to strike for 20 mph and under, with an additional -1 to strike for every 50 mph of the target speed, with an additional -1 to strike if the target is taking evasive action.
So technically, the GB would be at -9 to strike you if you're flying at full speed.
But it's unclear when exactly this penalty is supposed to apply.
If it applies all the time, then aerial dogfights would end up having an INSANE number of misses. Two jets traveling at Mach 1 would each be effectively unable to hit the other one except on a Natural 20, for example.
Not something that necessarily comes up a lot in Rifts, but in Robotech it would be very problematic.

Likewise, anybody flying around in power armor should technically have to fire Wild, because they're firing from a moving vehicle, which would exacerbate the above problem.

Many (most?) GMs that I'm aware of tend to assume that vehicles and mecha/bots/PA ignore that kind of penalty for shooting at a moving target, and/or for firing Wild while flying around.

[Zer0 Kay]

The thing is, at 400mph, I could fly around the GB and he would have a negative to hit me from the speed.

THAT is kind of one of Rifts' tragically under-explained areas.
Yes, according to RUE 361, shooting at a moving target means that you're -1 to strike for 20 mph and under, with an additional -1 to strike for every 50 mph of the target speed, with an additional -1 to strike if the target is taking evasive action.
So technically, the GB would be at -9 to strike you if you're flying at full speed.
But it's unclear when exactly this penalty is supposed to apply.
If it applies all the time, then aerial dogfights would end up having an INSANE number of misses. Two jets traveling at Mach 1 would each be effectively unable to hit the other one except on a Natural 20, for example.
Not something that necessarily comes up a lot in Rifts, but in Robotech it would be very problematic.

Likewise, anybody flying around in power armor should technically have to fire Wild, because they're firing from a moving vehicle, which would exacerbate the above problem.

Many (most?) GMs that I'm aware of tend to assume that vehicles and mecha/bots/PA ignore that kind of penalty for shooting at a moving target, and/or for firing Wild while flying around.

But KC there is a lot of misses in dog fighting most of a burst misses while the pilot brings the line of tracers onto target. Sure most combat computers have a leading cursor on the HUD but it assumes the target is going to continue on its course.

I think the speed dodge bonus should be comparative, so if one person is going 761 mph and the tail is going 711 mph they should only get the penalty for 50 mph.

full speed penalty unless target is being tailed or a combat computer is present (cc adds reason to have read instruments)
Combat computer only receives half penalty when not tailing, full penalty if not tailing and the target makes a successful pilot skill for evasive maneuvers
A tail only receives the speed penalty of the difference in speed
A tail with a combt computer only receives half the penalty of the difference in speed if the target makes a successful pilot skill roll for evasive maneuvers

[Killer Cyborg]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

[kaid]

I d'now... It seems to me that the best Glitter Boy killer has already been invented. The Flying Titan. A dozen mini missiles, and it flies at 400 Mi/hr. If you need anything close combat wise, a vibro sword will work. The other benefit is that they are cheap relatively.

One on one though even if the flying titan landed every mini missile for max damage it may not be enough to punch through the MDC of a GB unfortunately. Although this type of tactic is one that works pretty well vs the GB so it is a really nice option.

It is one reason the ulti max is a pretty good GB killer. If it can get into range it has the missile payload to guarantee it can smoke a GB if it can stay up long enough to launch them all.

Another cheap way of if not outright killing a GB of at least crippling it massively from well outside the GBs range is the NG missile man sampson variant. Big load of short range missiles and a good amount of mini missiles. I believe it has 10 short range missiles and most short range missiles have 5 mile range. Also given they are short ranged and thus guided missiles volleys of four or more are not dodgeable although one can still roll with the impact or sacrifice arms.

[Zer0 Kay]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

I'd guess that much, but your talking the whole burst missing I was just saying that most of the burst misses. Basically the same gun on a land based vehicle will do less damage when mounted on an aircraft. With an experienced fighter pilot or with a green pilot and a combat computer most burst will probably hit, unless the target is also experienced then the hits decrease.

USAF wouldn't put so much money into DARPA for guided shells if accuracy was good enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

I'd guess that much, but your talking the whole burst missing I was just saying that most of the burst misses. Basically the same gun on a land based vehicle will do less damage when mounted on an aircraft. With an experienced fighter pilot or with a green pilot and a combat computer most burst will probably hit, unless the target is also experienced then the hits decrease.

USAF wouldn't put so much money into DARPA for guided shells if accuracy was good enough.

Really not sure how you're applying this to the game rules.

[Zer0 Kay]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

I'd guess that much, but your talking the whole burst missing I was just saying that most of the burst misses. Basically the same gun on a land based vehicle will do less damage when mounted on an aircraft. With an experienced fighter pilot or with a green pilot and a combat computer most burst will probably hit, unless the target is also experienced then the hits decrease.

USAF wouldn't put so much money into DARPA for guided shells if accuracy was good enough.

Really not sure how you're applying this to the game rules.

That last part... I'm not. I'm just saying IRL they miss enough that the USAF is not only willing to invest in research for guided bullets but to consider loading 2000 of these puppies onto every fighter.

[Zer0 Kay]

At the same time id guess the miss rate of an entire burst by skilled pilots is likely under 50%. But that is because they don't pull the trigger unless the probability to hit is high and how do we do that in a game?

Real life the pilot maneuvers in behind the target (a task in itself) and as he is maintaining the tail he tries to get his cross hairs over the lead reticule on his hud and won't pull the trigger until then, unless he is better than the computer and the target is doing evasives and he can put his cross hairs where the lead indicator should be but hasn't moved to yet.
In game we roll to get tail, we roll to maintain it, we roll to strike adding bonuses for targeting aids.

Not very analogous. Basically irl there are many misses, just not many misses with the weapon.

So should that translate in game to few misses or a lot of misses? One way wastes more ammo than real life the other makes it easier than real life. To add in something where the gun doesn't use ammo unless there's a hit also makes it inaccurate because irl pilots do miss. Or should we really stop trying to emulate real life?

[Zer0 Kay]

Maybe weapon systems should have a percentage or we roll once to get on lead indicator and again to fire. The opponent gets difference in vehicle dodge bonuses, because a more agile craft will be more likely to dodge than two aircraft of the same type, and his dodge roll which is applied against both attack rolls.
If the first attack roll misses the second roll is not made. The second roll is made at a plus... Lets say 1/lvl so a 1st level is more likely to pull the trigger even if they see the target rolling to prepare for an opposed roll out, while a veteran will adjust for it.

[Nightmask]

Just out of curiosity, what criteria are being used to base the idea of an improved glitter boy killer around?

[wyrmraker]

For the criteria on any unit designed to fight Glitter Boys, I personally figured that non-laser would be a good foundation, with melee attacks to help negate the range advantage of the Boom Gun. Tack on additional attacks to outpace the Glitter Boy pilot's attacks, add on small squad tactics in an urban area to further decrease those advantages, and you're probably on a winning track.

[kaid]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

I'd guess that much, but your talking the whole burst missing I was just saying that most of the burst misses. Basically the same gun on a land based vehicle will do less damage when mounted on an aircraft. With an experienced fighter pilot or with a green pilot and a combat computer most burst will probably hit, unless the target is also experienced then the hits decrease.

USAF wouldn't put so much money into DARPA for guided shells if accuracy was good enough.

Really not sure how you're applying this to the game rules.

That last part... I'm not. I'm just saying IRL they miss enough that the USAF is not only willing to invest in research for guided bullets but to consider loading 2000 of these puppies onto every fighter.

It is also some what a factor of modern warplanes they are making have such small payloads of ammunition for their on board guns they cannot afford any misses.

[Zer0 Kay]

A lot of misses.
95% misses?

I'd guess that much, but your talking the whole burst missing I was just saying that most of the burst misses. Basically the same gun on a land based vehicle will do less damage when mounted on an aircraft. With an experienced fighter pilot or with a green pilot and a combat computer most burst will probably hit, unless the target is also experienced then the hits decrease.

USAF wouldn't put so much money into DARPA for guided shells if accuracy was good enough.

Really not sure how you're applying this to the game rules.

That last part... I'm not. I'm just saying IRL they miss enough that the USAF is not only willing to invest in research for guided bullets but to consider loading 2000 of these puppies onto every fighter.

It is also some what a factor of modern warplanes they are making have such small payloads of ammunition for their on board guns they cannot afford any misses.

A-10 with it being designed around the gun only carries 1170 (its max is 13xx) the f-22 is 480 rounds. Fighters are now expected to take out as many enemy plains as they can with missiles then bug out, the cannon is for emergency use only.

[kaid]

I think the new f-35 specs show the default internal cannon has like 3 seconds worth of ammunition. So when you have that little extra and by dint of you using the gun at all means the situation has already degraded to worst case scenario land they want all the accuracy they can muster. Also when you are dealing with near mach or faster speeds bullet deflection becomes and issue and anything that helps counteract it the better.

[Zer0 Kay]

I think the new f-35 specs show the default internal cannon has like 3 seconds worth of ammunition. So when you have that little extra and by dint of you using the gun at all means the situation has already degraded to worst case scenario land they want all the accuracy they can muster. Also when you are dealing with near mach or faster speeds bullet deflection becomes and issue and anything that helps counteract it the better.

the aircraft usually fly at cruising to engage in dog fights. Something about maneuvers at high speeds, excessive G-force and stuff. Now if they ever get a drone to dogfight at high speeds that'd be awesome!

[Zer0 Kay]

I think the new f-35 specs show the default internal cannon has like 3 seconds worth of ammunition. So when you have that little extra and by dint of you using the gun at all means the situation has already degraded to worst case scenario land they want all the accuracy they can muster. Also when you are dealing with near mach or faster speeds bullet deflection becomes and issue and anything that helps counteract it the better.

that's probably six bursts.

[kaid]

Back on the topic of the GB killer one issue with mini missile or any missile attacks on them is a GB can chose to do the sacrifice the arms of which their arms are pretty durable or after doing that once or twice attempt to roll with the impact for half damage. Given a GB's extreme armor both of these tactics wind up working better for GB than they do for most other units.

[Zer0 Kay]

Back on the topic of the GB killer one issue with mini missile or any missile attacks on them is a GB can chose to do the sacrifice the arms of which their arms are pretty durable or after doing that once or twice attempt to roll with the impact for half damage. Given a GB's extreme armor both of these tactics wind up working better for GB than they do for most other units.

hmm are you allowed to use the sacrifice your arms in a power armor where your squishy arms may be sacrificed too... Unless you always use the go Joe rule too.

[Shark_Force]

why wouldn't you be able to?

sure, you risk losing your arms. potentially, you risk losing your torso by *not* blocking with your arms.

[Mechghost]

Mount a pair of WI-GL20 on something - burst of AP = 3d6x10 MD at 3000FT - each. That would put some hurt on a GB if you mount them on something where you have gunner(s) for them, the pilot dodges and the gunner(s) hose the GB, it can dodge or shoot.

[Aaryq]

Mount a pair of WI-GL20 on something - burst of AP = 3d6x10 MD at 3000FT - each. That would put some hurt on a GB if you mount them on something where you have gunner(s) for them, the pilot dodges and the gunner(s) hose the GB, it can dodge or shoot.

The CS is great at copying existing things. Why not put a pair of the Automatic Grenade Launchers (Let's call it the CGL-20) in the laser turret of a sky cycle. It goes back into the tank killer mentality school of thought: High mobility, lightly armored, designed to take out that big beast in the field.
Even if the CS pays Black Market price (I'm sure a sky cycle costs them at least 1/3 less than the 1m price tag) even if the whole team gets blown out of the sky if they can destroy the GB or even score a mobility kill (or weapon system kill) their GB-packing opponents will still be at a significant financial loss compared to the CS.

Fly in groups of 2-4
Locate the GB position
Fly NAP of the Earth and flank them
Flip a 180 and ascend
Hit them from the rear, specifically targeting weak points that have been beaten to the ground
Send in skelebots and grunts to mop up
???
Profit

Option 2:
Take those modified Mark-V's that fire the long range MLRS system (don't have my books in front of me)
Send forward some commandos or SF to serve as forward observers
Call for fire
Lots of little pieces

[wyrmraker]

If the GB focuses his fire on YOU, it'll take him an average of 5 hits to kill you (Boom Gun does an average of 105 MD per attack, and the borg has 510 MDC).
But if he focuses his fire on YOU, then all your missiles will get through (assuming successful strike rolls), and you'll drop the GB in 2 attacks, so he'll be dead if he tries to slug it out.
If the GB plays defensively, trying to shoot down incoming volleys, then he's not shooting YOU, and you can keep up combat until you run out of ammo or the GB dies (and the GB is going to die first.

Brutal and efficient, add in simultaneous attack and jobs done. Nice.

Thanks!

I think the GB's best strategy would be to not attack, to try to wait out the Borg until the Borg attacked.
Then the GB should Dodge and/or Block Sacrifice.
If the Borg picks explosive missiles instead of AP or Plasma, then Rolling with Impact could be an option as well.
If the Borg runs out of missiles, then the GB can win the day (or, at least, survive it).

The GB could try to close in (using attacks only to move and dodge) for melee, but I think the Borg would have the edge in melee. It's physically stronger than the GB by 6 points, and it has four arms. It could grab the GB's arms with its main arms, and use the secondary arms to whittle the GB down with its vibro-blades, for example.
Give the Borg a Tail as well, just for another option.
Of course, in order to fight effectively in melee, the borg would have to drop its guns. A clever GB might close for melee, then try to chuck the guns in a lake or something, then run off for ranged combat... but the Borg's going to be stronger and faster (runs roughly 2x as fast as the GB), so that probably wouldn't work.

True, but this whole discussion thread just makes me reflect on the fact that if all of this special work is necessary to defeat 1 G.B. then Glitter Boys are even more BadA$$ then I'd previously thought. I mean, I've always thought of them as tough, but when you consider all the work on this discussion thread just to "create a better GB Killer"... kinda makes you think.

And like you just pointed out, a good pilot could even counter your Combat 'Borg (potentially). So, Free Quebec had literally an Army of these, plus specialty models, trained in how to maximize them on a battlefield. I don't know, after reading this thread and adding in the tactics explained in the Free Quebec book the C.S. had to be taking Tremendous losses! I mean I know the C.S. had numerical advantage and in war that means ALOT, but still I'm going to guess tremendous losses!

To be honest, the Classic Glitter Boy is, pound for pound, probably the toughest, hardest-hitting unit on Rifts Earth. It was designed to be awesome, from it's very conception at the origin of what would eventually become the Rifts setting. Tack on the 'Legendary Neemans' to the Golden Age mystique of the Glitter Boy, and suddenly bad guys run like crazy when they hear a pack of Glitter Boys is coming to break up a bandit camp.

As for game stats, the Glitter Boy has the highest MDC by weight, and no other weapon short of non-Terrestrial tank weaponry can outpace it for damage. This is even more true now that the old Burst rules have been dropped from RUE. Add on the Descended Glitter Boy Pilot OCC to truly maximize the performance. Even at first level, a single Glitter Boy can be a force to be reckoned with. True, the machine has a few limitations, but for the most part the Glitter Boy is tops insofar as being able to suck up and dish out damage.

Now take that single unit, and mass-produce it. Train pilots in it's use. Take that Golden Age tech and diversify. That is exactly what Free Quebec has done. Not only do they have thousands of units, but a solidly thought out resupply setup for their front line war machines.

Suddenly Free Quebec is a viable threat to Prosek's power base, using a combination of legendry and Golden Age technology that they won't share (or allow to be stolen, depending on the viewpoint). While Quebec lacks the sheer volume of the CS military machine, they do have the home field advantage and localized training to keep the battle in their favor, i.e. out in the open. So that means that, given this kind of force, a dedicated Glitter Boy Killer powered armor or robot would be desirable.

[Zer0 Kay]

Mount a pair of WI-GL20 on something - burst of AP = 3d6x10 MD at 3000FT - each. That would put some hurt on a GB if you mount them on something where you have gunner(s) for them, the pilot dodges and the gunner(s) hose the GB, it can dodge or shoot.

The CS is great at copying existing things. Why not put a pair of the Automatic Grenade Launchers (Let's call it the CGL-20) in the laser turret of a sky cycle. It goes back into the tank killer mentality school of thought: High mobility, lightly armored, designed to take out that big beast in the field.
Even if the CS pays Black Market price (I'm sure a sky cycle costs them at least 1/3 less than the 1m price tag) even if the whole team gets blown out of the sky if they can destroy the GB or even score a mobility kill (or weapon system kill) their GB-packing opponents will still be at a significant financial loss compared to the CS.

Fly in groups of 2-4
Locate the GB position
Fly NAP of the Earth and flank them
Flip a 180 and ascend
Hit them from the rear, specifically targeting weak points that have been beaten to the ground
Send in skelebots and grunts to mop up
???
Profit

Option 2:
Take those modified Mark-V's that fire the long range MLRS system (don't have my books in front of me)
Send forward some commandos or SF to serve as forward observers
Call for fire
Lots of little pieces

what? Ya can't do profit without at least 3 steps.

[Shark_Force]

to be fair, within the context of the thread people keep complaining about using multiple other units to defeat a glitterboy. and yet, that is almost definitely the exact tactic that the CS would use, so it really shouldn't be disqualified.

for example, my artillery scheme. well within the CS technology levels (it uses WWII-era tech plus a targeting computer; we know the CS has targeting computers, and we can fairly safely assume they have the ability to make WWII-era artillery; cannons, howitzers, etc).

but everyone's ignoring it because they're all busy looking for ways to do it basicaly one-on-one. never mind that for the cost of one glitter boy, you could probably have a dozen other power armours. never mind that body armour and a laser rifle will basically set you back about 100,000 credits, meaning you can afford to outfit ~250 infantry (of course, training and such will add to the cost, so you're not *really* getting that many infantry, but suppose it's "only" 100 dog boys or something) and probably also give them some light fast transport vehicles as well.

yes, you're going to suffer losses. but we know the CS is ok with that. it's only this much trouble when you're limited to dealing with a glitter boy one-on-one. when you instead make it "equivalent budget" it's a lot easier. if you make it "the CS has a larger budget because they're many times larger than free quebec" it gets even more possible. when you then add in beyond that "and we don't really care all that much about dog boy or skelebot casualties, or even really about human casualties" it becomes much more realistic.

so charging in a hundred dog boys with light SDC vehicles will cost 50 dog boys their life? so long as they just spent half as many resources to destroy/capture your resources, the CS doesn't care all that much (plus, there's a chance the ones that lost their armour didn't even die, and all of their weapons are still intact, plus if their armour is modular you can probably reuse large portions of that, too).

(that said, the only reason they'd use that plan over my artillery scheme is because afaict the people in charge of rifts don't seem to like artillery, and thus almost none has ever been put into print even though it's incredibly useful and should cost a lot less than robot vehicles and such).

[kaid]

why wouldn't you be able to?

sure, you risk losing your arms. potentially, you risk losing your torso by *not* blocking with your arms.

Well remember that the GB also has the reinforced pilot compartment. Losing the arms still would have to punch through that extra layer of protection before hurting the pilot. GB are stupidly durable to battle damage.

[Zer0 Kay]

why wouldn't you be able to?

sure, you risk losing your arms. potentially, you risk losing your torso by *not* blocking with your arms.

Well remember that the GB also has the reinforced pilot compartment. Losing the arms still would have to punch through that extra layer of protection before hurting the pilot. GB are stupidly durable to battle damage.

your right I never thought of it that way. So after blowing off the arms there are these non reflective human strength armored arms still there. They should called it the Shrek cuz its got layers

[glitterboy2098]

why wouldn't you be able to?

sure, you risk losing your arms. potentially, you risk losing your torso by *not* blocking with your arms.

Well remember that the GB also has the reinforced pilot compartment. Losing the arms still would have to punch through that extra layer of protection before hurting the pilot. GB are stupidly durable to battle damage.

your right I never thought of it that way. So after blowing off the arms there are these non reflective human strength armored arms still there. They should called it the Shrek cuz its got layers

even tougher..under the armored pilots compartment layer the pilot is usually wearing MDC body-armor roughly equal to an urban warrior suit.. so to harm the pilot you have to blow through body, then pilot compartment, then body armor.. a combination that runs about 970 mdc total for the main body. (770 + 150 +50), not counting the effects of the laser damage reduction. Glitterboy's are one of the only PA suits that has an official mention of being able to wear body armor under it.

[kaid]

why wouldn't you be able to?

sure, you risk losing your arms. potentially, you risk losing your torso by *not* blocking with your arms.

Well remember that the GB also has the reinforced pilot compartment. Losing the arms still would have to punch through that extra layer of protection before hurting the pilot. GB are stupidly durable to battle damage.

your right I never thought of it that way. So after blowing off the arms there are these non reflective human strength armored arms still there. They should called it the Shrek cuz its got layers

It is easy to forget because the GB is only one of a couple power armors anywhere in rifts that has the reinforced pilot protection. And the only other ones I can think of only have it because they are more robot vehicles than power armor.

[kaid]

Hehe the GB may be a one trick pony but by god they do that trick REALLY REALLY well.

[GBAnnihilator]

to be fair, within the context of the thread people keep complaining about using multiple other units to defeat a glitterboy. and yet, that is almost definitely the exact tactic that the CS would use, so it really shouldn't be disqualified.

for example, my artillery scheme. well within the CS technology levels (it uses WWII-era tech plus a targeting computer; we know the CS has targeting computers, and we can fairly safely assume they have the ability to make WWII-era artillery; cannons, howitzers, etc).

but everyone's ignoring it because they're all busy looking for ways to do it basicaly one-on-one. never mind that for the cost of one glitter boy, you could probably have a dozen other power armours. never mind that body armour and a laser rifle will basically set you back about 100,000 credits, meaning you can afford to outfit ~250 infantry (of course, training and such will add to the cost, so you're not *really* getting that many infantry, but suppose it's "only" 100 dog boys or something) and probably also give them some light fast transport vehicles as well.

yes, you're going to suffer losses. but we know the CS is ok with that. it's only this much trouble when you're limited to dealing with a glitter boy one-on-one. when you instead make it "equivalent budget" it's a lot easier. if you make it "the CS has a larger budget because they're many times larger than free quebec" it gets even more possible. when you then add in beyond that "and we don't really care all that much about dog boy or skelebot casualties, or even really about human casualties" it becomes much more realistic.

so charging in a hundred dog boys with light SDC vehicles will cost 50 dog boys their life? so long as they just spent half as many resources to destroy/capture your resources, the CS doesn't care all that much (plus, there's a chance the ones that lost their armour didn't even die, and all of their weapons are still intact, plus if their armour is modular you can probably reuse large portions of that, too).

(that said, the only reason they'd use that plan over my artillery scheme is because afaict the people in charge of rifts don't seem to like artillery, and thus almost none has ever been put into print even though it's incredibly useful and should cost a lot less than robot vehicles and such).

Yes Artillery can fire from great distances, but most of the things on Rifts Earth can close those distances FAST (Mystic Portal, Rifter, Japanese Robots,..ect)! Then even if the opponent isn't moving, the Artillery only gets one shot before they all scatter. It would also need to be doing insane damage to compensate, especially if fighting a GB.

[wyrmraker]

to be fair, within the context of the thread people keep complaining about using multiple other units to defeat a glitterboy. and yet, that is almost definitely the exact tactic that the CS would use, so it really shouldn't be disqualified.

for example, my artillery scheme. well within the CS technology levels (it uses WWII-era tech plus a targeting computer; we know the CS has targeting computers, and we can fairly safely assume they have the ability to make WWII-era artillery; cannons, howitzers, etc).

but everyone's ignoring it because they're all busy looking for ways to do it basicaly one-on-one. never mind that for the cost of one glitter boy, you could probably have a dozen other power armours. never mind that body armour and a laser rifle will basically set you back about 100,000 credits, meaning you can afford to outfit ~250 infantry (of course, training and such will add to the cost, so you're not *really* getting that many infantry, but suppose it's "only" 100 dog boys or something) and probably also give them some light fast transport vehicles as well.

yes, you're going to suffer losses. but we know the CS is ok with that. it's only this much trouble when you're limited to dealing with a glitter boy one-on-one. when you instead make it "equivalent budget" it's a lot easier. if you make it "the CS has a larger budget because they're many times larger than free quebec" it gets even more possible. when you then add in beyond that "and we don't really care all that much about dog boy or skelebot casualties, or even really about human casualties" it becomes much more realistic.

so charging in a hundred dog boys with light SDC vehicles will cost 50 dog boys their life? so long as they just spent half as many resources to destroy/capture your resources, the CS doesn't care all that much (plus, there's a chance the ones that lost their armour didn't even die, and all of their weapons are still intact, plus if their armour is modular you can probably reuse large portions of that, too).

(that said, the only reason they'd use that plan over my artillery scheme is because afaict the people in charge of rifts don't seem to like artillery, and thus almost none has ever been put into print even though it's incredibly useful and should cost a lot less than robot vehicles and such).

Yes Artillery can fire from great distances, but most of the things on Rifts Earth can close those distances FAST (Mystic Portal, Rifter, Japanese Robots,..ect)! Then even if the opponent isn't moving, the Artillery only gets one shot before they all scatter. It would also need to be doing insane damage to compensate, especially if fighting a GB.

That is not necessarily the case. If an Operator can compensate for recoil and such on artillery, a series of mobile artillery cannons can easily be created with the technologies available to the CS. However, given the current inventories that we as players are aware of, it may well be cheaper and simpler for the CS to repeatedly saturate a region from 200+ miles away with missiles.

[Killer Cyborg]

LRMs FTW.

[Zer0 Kay]

to be fair, within the context of the thread people keep complaining about using multiple other units to defeat a glitterboy. and yet, that is almost definitely the exact tactic that the CS would use, so it really shouldn't be disqualified.

for example, my artillery scheme. well within the CS technology levels (it uses WWII-era tech plus a targeting computer; we know the CS has targeting computers, and we can fairly safely assume they have the ability to make WWII-era artillery; cannons, howitzers, etc).

but everyone's ignoring it because they're all busy looking for ways to do it basicaly one-on-one. never mind that for the cost of one glitter boy, you could probably have a dozen other power armours. never mind that body armour and a laser rifle will basically set you back about 100,000 credits, meaning you can afford to outfit ~250 infantry (of course, training and such will add to the cost, so you're not *really* getting that many infantry, but suppose it's "only" 100 dog boys or something) and probably also give them some light fast transport vehicles as well.

yes, you're going to suffer losses. but we know the CS is ok with that. it's only this much trouble when you're limited to dealing with a glitter boy one-on-one. when you instead make it "equivalent budget" it's a lot easier. if you make it "the CS has a larger budget because they're many times larger than free quebec" it gets even more possible. when you then add in beyond that "and we don't really care all that much about dog boy or skelebot casualties, or even really about human casualties" it becomes much more realistic.

so charging in a hundred dog boys with light SDC vehicles will cost 50 dog boys their life? so long as they just spent half as many resources to destroy/capture your resources, the CS doesn't care all that much (plus, there's a chance the ones that lost their armour didn't even die, and all of their weapons are still intact, plus if their armour is modular you can probably reuse large portions of that, too).

(that said, the only reason they'd use that plan over my artillery scheme is because afaict the people in charge of rifts don't seem to like artillery, and thus almost none has ever been put into print even though it's incredibly useful and should cost a lot less than robot vehicles and such).

Yes Artillery can fire from great distances, but most of the things on Rifts Earth can close those distances FAST (Mystic Portal, Rifter, Japanese Robots,..ect)! Then even if the opponent isn't moving, the Artillery only gets one shot before they all scatter. It would also need to be doing insane damage to compensate, especially if fighting a GB.

That is not necessarily the case. If an Operator can compensate for recoil and such on artillery, a series of mobile artillery cannons can easily be created with the technologies available to the CS. However, given the current inventories that we as players are aware of, it may well be cheaper and simpler for the CS to repeatedly saturate a region from 200+ miles away with missiles.

Cuz the CS doesn't have access to the current inventories that we as players are aware of. They recovered a lot of pre rifts stuff they didn't recover ALL of it, they didn't even recover most of it. Seriously if the CS found the GB do you think they wouldn't produce it? I'd guess that somewhere in the U.S. especially where GBs are prevalent that there should be some Japanese tech since one of the companies in Japan was developing with the company that made GBs.

[Zer0 Kay]

LRMs FTW.

Long Range Missiles From The West? Huh??

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm surprised that they don't have a setup like the one that the US Army was considering where a Stryker is modified so it only has the drivers position and the entire rear of the vehicle is vertical missile launch tubes. The unit follows behind an advancing line, designated soldiers are equipped with an under barrel laser marker that remote launches a missile from the vehicle. That would be awesome if they did that with a Mark V APC. those things are so tall they could have four SRM per VLT, 2 MRM per VLT or 1 LRM... heck with the tech they should have they could have a mix of missiles on board and allow the soldiers to call up whatever they need.

[Shark_Force]

Yes Artillery can fire from great distances, but most of the things on Rifts Earth can close those distances FAST (Mystic Portal, Rifter, Japanese Robots,..ect)! Then even if the opponent isn't moving, the Artillery only gets one shot before they all scatter. It would also need to be doing insane damage to compensate, especially if fighting a GB.

i dunno. i bet you can afford a *lot* of pre-rifts artillery for 25 million credits.

just as one example, if they were still on the market i could buy 5 iron bolt tanks (electric engine, 6 plus missiles for gasoline), each of which can fire two volleys of 6 long range missiles, and has 120 mini-missiles in reserve (but can "only" fire those mini-missiles ten at a time). i could buy close to 20 iron maidens, each of which has 24 mini-missiles that can fire in volleys of 10.

if i was just buying a mountaineer or big boss to tow some simple artillery weapons, i bet i could buy a lot of them. and while stuff does move quickly, closing the distance when that distance is 10+ miles is not going to happen *that* quickly (especially considering that infantry is still a thing, and they won't move particularly faster on rifts earth than they do today. but even a glitter boy at 60 m/h is going to take 10 minutes. a little over 8 to get into firing range, if there are no hills in the way - after all, artillery is indirect fire). consider: in world war 1, it was a thing to basically shell the area right in front of an advancing wave of your own troops while they marched along behind it. in world war 1. that was how accurate artillery could be ~90 years ago, that you could with confidence just march your troops along behind a wall of explosions (which made it hard to see them, and also destroyed barbed wire and mines etc in their path). hook up a 22nd century targeting computer to handle the calculations, and have a simple mechanical control system to handle aiming, (and some guy with a laser distance measuring device to give some feedback), and imagine what that can do. and when you're dropping shells that explode in a large area, dodging is relative. sure, it won't get many direct hits. but it doesn't need to. it's hitting an entire area. except that "it" in this case is probably 20+ guns, each of which are dropping an explosive equivalent to a short-range missile warhead or better.

now, it's gonna take a lot more crew to man those things. heck, it'll even take a lot more men to crew those iron heart tanks. but the simple fact is, for 25 million credits, you can buy a *lot* of firepower, and the CS is not short on people to operate equipment by any means.

[Thinyser]

Forget howitzers just use 120mm mortars! They have a max range of 7200 meters (4.47 miles) so you could sit well outside the range of the boomgun and lob in shells from 10 of these stationed all around the GB, and assuming you could use MD explosives (that were equivalent to mini missiles for damage) in the warheads you could take him out with ease.

With 3 Sky Cycles you could probably carry the parts to assemble the gun and 9-15 shells. Once each team sets up the gun and drops off the ammo they leave one man to bombard the target while the other two engage the target from the air with mini-missiles, or just circle the battle and take measurements and act as the spotters to target the mortars.
With a little tech enhancement of laser guided mortars you significantly up the lethality as the other sky cycles can paint the target with a laser so if it moves while the mortars are aloft they still drop on target.

Yeah its 30 soldiers, 30 sky cycles, 10 mortar tubes and 90/150 shells (though not all would likely get used) But everybody stays safe out of sight behind terrain AND at extended range that the boom gun cannot touch. So I figure the investment is about the same 25 million as one GB and pilot but its spread out over many parts and likely to survive with minimal damage if not completely unscathed.

[Shark_Force]

7200 meters is short range for artillery. if you get the ridiculously large ones, you can get something crazy like 20 miles (and of course, if you go all nazi germany, you can get one that will shoot from a railroad in france to london).

but even more standard stuff can get close to 10 miles (15+ kilometers was what i found in a quick search about artillery ranges) for the smaller ones.