Forums of the Megaverse®

I don't think anyone here said magic would be stomped. That's your distortion.

I said magic can counter tech and tech can counter magic. That statement was and is true.

Blue_Lion wrote:Magic does so much more than just deal damage. Magical forces are the best there is at gorilla warfare. Able to go invis to slip behind most troops teleport bombs cover a mind field with illusionary terrene. Sure if you have dog boys you might be able detect some of it but you still going to have problems with Magical gorilla warfare. Most mages also use tech to augment their abilities and TW tanker units can be a royal pain to destroy.
In addition magic can cripple tech in key areas, summon storms to stop all air travel is one example. I would not expect magical forces to attack large tech forces head on but instead bleed them.
Mages can also increase force threw summoning, and animation magic. Zombie suicide bombers can be a pain to deal with using a ley line to gather PPE then summon demon or to teleport into a enemy camp in the middle of the night or the chow hall during a meal.
Magic is a strategic resource that can drain foes resources and Moral. To say it will strait get waffle stomped is selling it short.

Sure dog boys, or the guys from PSI-division, or thermal sensors, or magnetic resonance sensors, or air mapping in real time, or just scouts worth damn. Minefields are nothing new and everyone who's ever deployed them has taken steps to hide them. The context of the concealment is magic, but their isn't anything in that idea that hasn't been around since the before the first world war. The CS has run into this before, they likely have formations and machines to deal with landmines, magic or no. Instead of teleporting bombs, a tech character could strap it to some sort of flight system, then launch it for the same effect. And military craft fly in storms all the time. It's one of the attributes that makes the USAF so good. And our aircraft aren't made out of MDC materials. It's not safe, and not recommended but it can be done. Not to mention that civilian aircraft fly above storms, all the time.

Magic as written, is geared for encounters, not war.

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

I think you have missed the point of the comment.
Magic and Tech can teleport, cross dimensions, travel in time, destroy things at a distance, read minds, Insert ability X, yadda yadda yadda. That really doesn't prove anything.
The point is that with out a specific objective that is to be accomplished, with a specific context (amount of resources for instance, or population densities, or costs, or what ever) then anyone can just randomly throw out the "oh yah, well ______" which probably will work here no better than it does in kindergarten rooms. Which is to say, it doesn't. There is no context, no way of judging what is better because there is no situation to compare. Thus anything used as an example is just that, an example, of different things. Its like asking the question "Which is the greatest fruit?" And then saying "Pineapples taste great." and "Banana's have potassium" Both are replies to the question...but since there is no context to 'greatest' neither reply actually answers anything.

Blue_Lion wrote:the plant or chain of plants would need to be spread out over 100's of miles.

Giving the scale of the clouds you are trying to create to get that amount of water in the air would require spreading it out. That is why I think it would take 100+ miles of installation. .

Idea: instead of hundreds of miles of immobile plants... what about if we built this steam-cloud generator into a boat that traveled along the coastline? Or even smaller units that could do this from river?

Then they could saturate an area and gradually move into drier areas at whatever speed rather than continuing to pump moisture into an already humid sky.

Then once it finally did dry up again (perhaps if the clouds could be coaxed in-land, not sure how to do that) it (or another cloud-boat) could come again on another ship and top it off.

Blue_Lion wrote:magic can negate tech but tech can not negate magic.

This depends on what magic and what tech we are talking about, tech can certainly impede the effects of magic, block damage from it, damage magical structures, etc.

Arguments to this effect will be difficult unless we identify what particular spell (I assume a warlock one?) the CS would want to counter. I'm not clear what specific magic is being discussed and need to know the spell to begin to imagine if tech can counter it.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Magic is too resource intensive to be efficient in war.

A magic school can turn out a few students a year. Boot camp and a power armor factory can turn out a few mecha pilots with mecha a month.

I'm not clear where you are getting all of this. Although I agree it's going to be easier (faster, more qualified people) to train a grunt than a LLW (or whatevs) I don't know where to get any guidelines on how many resources it takes to build power-armor.

If we look at the salary a grunt makes, PA is really expensive, and so are missiles. The CS can field many, but that's because they're so large, not necessarily because it's more efficient than magic.

PPE is free and renewable, it seems to be very efficient in terms of resources.

It's hard to discuss armoring logistics when we don't have rules on like... how much energy/time/people it takes to build a suit of PA, what natural resources need to be mined, how long it takes to mine them, etc.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Whatever else magic has going for it, it takes too damn long. A bunch of it's best hits only work on one or two days a year.

This is a legitimate concern if people are relying on solstices and stuff in arguments about who will win a battle.

For the most part people ignore these events from what I've seen though. Magic is perfectly competent even without those boost periods.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Plus training from talented farm kid to mage takes a few years.

Technology, whatever it's limitations works everyday with the flick of a switch.

Training average farm kid into a grunt takes a few months.

At the end of this, magic's biggest and baddest are still vulnerable to tech when used enmass. Which is exactly what tech biggest and baddest, the Mechanoids, do best.

I'm not sure why the Mechanoids are being brought up here, I thought we were having a CS discussion. I also don't think grunts and mages necessarily die at equal rates, they fight differently. Mages can also equip their own grunts to go toe to toe with CS ones if need be, or just summon them.

I mean, if you want to get down to the gritty... it takes less time to make a zombie than it does to make a grunt, and you could make a zombie out of a child (same universal stats) in less time than it takes to grow a kid old enough to join the military. You could also breed monkeys and make zombies out of those since they mature faster. Now zombies can survive MDC now even without being dressed in armor (or power armor) per the Vampire Sourcebook update (seems mummies still suck though).

Zombie aim sure sucks of course, but it might be adequate if you have them stand around and simultaneous-attack any aggressors. There is also the golem option, perm SDC sucks but it allows mages to field a good amount of in-close brawlers to defend a fortress.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Instead of teleporting bombs, a tech character could strap it to some sort of flight system, then launch it for the same effect.

like what sean bean does in episode 7 (quicksand) of legends using a drone (according to https://www.laurensvanduijn.nl/wordpres ... ying-bomb/ called a DJJ phantom) which the CS could manage with a fusion block

Similar to porting but not the 'same', since porting can get you past a chain-link fence but a drone-bomb would require you to destroy the fence to center an explosion beyond it (assuming fenced roof)

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

A Mechanoid mothership is a single Mechanoid.

Killer Cyborg wrote:A Mechanoid mothership is a single Mechanoid.

Mechanoid motherships are big, how will they fit into a 6 inch tall astral domain?

Killer Cyborg wrote:A Mechanoid mothership is a single Mechanoid.

Good point.

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

That's not a strength of technology, numbers are a general strength either side can have.

Nightmask wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

That's not a strength of technology, numbers are a general strength either side can have.

Not really. Tech is easy. Magic is not. Tech, once you have it, can be popped out as fast as you can build it. Magic has to be trained. And even once someone has gained a spell, they have to teach it in the same slow process, over and over again. Or in game terms, spell levels and PPE are a function of character levels, where as weapons and armor are a function of starting equipment.

The Artist Formerly wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

That's not a strength of technology, numbers are a general strength either side can have.

Not really. Tech is easy. Magic is not. Tech, once you have it, can be popped out as fast as you can build it. Magic has to be trained. And even once someone has gained a spell, they have to teach it in the same slow process, over and over again. Or in game terms, spell levels and PPE are a function of character levels, where as weapons and armor are a function of starting equipment.

Tech isn't that easy, and a thousand guys who couldn't hit the side of a barn aren't going to be of much value compared to a hundred or even ten trained magic guys who can hit what they're aiming at. Particularly when those ten can or hundred can get in close without being detected and use attacks that get those thousand to attack each other. Quality and versatility are also on the side of magic, with the tech versatility comes down to 'do I use the railgun, laser, particle beam weapon, or grenades' because they don't have variety on their side.

Now, I know that, somewhere in one of the books, it mentions Mexico being kept dry by magic. I know I've seen it, but can't remember where. Where does it mention this?

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

The mechanics of the setting make it easier to field large numbers of tech users (as long as we're talking humans) which is, I think, what you're claiming. But numerical superiority isn't a strength of technology itself, merely a secondary effect of mass production of technology. If the setting had high technology but each item was hand crafted and took months to produce, suddenly your "key strength" would be gone.

If 5 mages were pitted against 5 grunts, what relative strengths do the grunts have compared to the mages? Of course, Rifts being Rifts, the only advantage that the grunts may have would depend on their skills since mages are allowed to use exactly the same weapons and armor as the grunts which is why tech vs magic discussions always seem a little surreal since everyone is pretending that the mages don't use technology even though we know they do (just look at their starting skills and equipment).

--flatline

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

flatline wrote:Magic and tech are simply different. Overwhelming force is easier to accomplish with tech, but it's also possible with magic.

To say that one is better than the other without specifying a specific goal in a specific context is meaningless.

--flatline

Who's the scariest mother ****er that magic has going for it? Generally I'd say the Dark of nightbane fame, but the Riathinor could be a serious contender for that too. Then compare to the mechanoids. Magic can do things tech can't but not meaningfully in a battle. Tech can teleport, cross dimensional boundries, and even travel in time. Both forward and backward.

Don't confuse numbers with power. Tech scales to large numbers better, but magic allows the concentration of power in a single individual.

Mechanoids are scary because there are generally a lot of them. A single mechanoid, however, is not so scary.

--flatline

We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

The mechanics of the setting make it easier to field large numbers of tech users (as long as we're talking humans) which is, I think, what you're claiming. But numerical superiority isn't a strength of technology itself, merely a secondary effect of mass production of technology. If the setting had high technology but each item was hand crafted and took months to produce, suddenly your "key strength" would be gone.

If 5 mages were pitted against 5 grunts, what relative strengths do the grunts have compared to the mages? Of course, Rifts being Rifts, the only advantage that the grunts may have would depend on their skills since mages are allowed to use exactly the same weapons and armor as the grunts which is why tech vs magic discussions always seem a little surreal since everyone is pretending that the mages don't use technology even though we know they do (just look at their starting skills and equipment).

--flatline

Basically. Getting five farm kids through basic training and into the field is easy. Getting five wizards trained up take years. Based on that idea alone, killing a grunt not nearly as big a loss as killing a mage. And if you're mages are strapped up like grunts, why have mages at all? Save the magic for support roles and let the fighters handle their business.

Nightmask wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

The Artist Formerly wrote:We must have been fighting different badguys.

Regardless, numbers is a key strength of technology over magic.

That's not a strength of technology, numbers are a general strength either side can have.

Not really. Tech is easy. Magic is not. Tech, once you have it, can be popped out as fast as you can build it. Magic has to be trained. And even once someone has gained a spell, they have to teach it in the same slow process, over and over again. Or in game terms, spell levels and PPE are a function of character levels, where as weapons and armor are a function of starting equipment.

Tech isn't that easy, and a thousand guys who couldn't hit the side of a barn aren't going to be of much value compared to a hundred or even ten trained magic guys who can hit what they're aiming at. Particularly when those ten can or hundred can get in close without being detected and use attacks that get those thousand to attack each other. Quality and versatility are also on the side of magic, with the tech versatility comes down to 'do I use the railgun, laser, particle beam weapon, or grenades' because they don't have variety on their side.

Magic weapons cannot be readily mass produced. Tech weapons can.

/Sub

wyrmraker wrote:Now, I know that, somewhere in one of the books, it mentions Mexico being kept dry by magic. I know I've seen it, but can't remember where. Where does it mention this?

Are you referring to Camazotz, the lord of bats?

/Sub

You do know it is possible for a human mage with 1 spell that is in N&SS mystic china to potentially destroy all life on earth. The spell summons the 4 horse men of apocalypse on the world it is cast even if they have already been defeated. In other words he could keep summing them over and over again now then can science match that?

Some one did say that the CS could just waffle stomp any magic force but that is just not true CS may have numbers but as per canon they suck at guerilla warfare and it has been proven on the battle field tactics that guerilla warfare can slow down, cripple and even at times defeat a much larger force.

Magical kingdoms for the most part do not just produce mages they also produce standard troops so they could create standard troops in the same amount of time as the CS. The limiting factor then comes down to size, recruitment and retention CS does have a larger size but they may be reaching the limits of finding new bodies. While magic has the option of when they run out of bodies to recruit they can create or summon fresh ones in lot less time.

Protecting the large amount of lands the CS has does require a significant portion of there troops so they could not deploy there entire army to take a magical kingdom. They can field an army larger than the magical kingdom has to but such an army would be slowed by gorilla warfare tactics. I do not think any magical kingdom in north America could field an army large enough to take any of the CS cities from them.

So I do not see either side having an easy win in a battle. But I do not see any NA kingdom of being likely to topple the CS.

Blue_Lion wrote:You do know it is possible for a human mage with 1 spell that is in N&SS mystic china to potentially destroy all life on earth. The spell summons the 4 horse men of apocalypse on the world it is cast even if they have already been defeated. In other words he could keep summing them over and over again now then can science match that?

IIRC, N&SS is not compatible with the rest of the megaversal rules.

However, can science match that? ABSOLUTELY. Science made a black hole projector. Science made fusion bombs. Science makes all sorts of nasty things, all of which can be mass produced.

Some one did say that the CS could just waffle stomp any magic force but that is just not true CS may have numbers but as per canon they suck at guerilla warfare and it has been proven on the battle field tactics that guerilla warfare can slow down, cripple and even at times defeat a much larger force.

They did not say the CS could waffle-stomp any magic force. They said the CS could've waffle stomped any of their opposition. That's not the same thing you said and if you leave out Atlantis, is arguable (I think elementals weren't used to their best effect, but meh).

Magical kingdoms for the most part do not just produce mages they also produce standard troops so they could create standard troops in the same amount of time as the CS.

...and what would those standard troops rely upon?

Technology.

The limiting factor then comes down to size, recruitment and retention CS does have a larger size but they may be reaching the limits of finding new bodies. While magic has the option of when they run out of bodies to recruit they can create or summon fresh ones in lot less time.

Yes. Magic has an advantage in the ability to summon troops...but it still can't mass produce its weapons, and the CS can.

Protecting the large amount of lands the CS has does require a significant portion of there troops so they could not deploy there entire army to take a magical kingdom.

In a matter of survival? They certainly can. They'd only protect the fortress cities and let the outlying areas take their chances.

They can field an army larger than the magical kingdom has to but such an army would be slowed by gorilla warfare tactics. I do not think any magical kingdom in north America could field an army large enough to take any of the CS cities from them.

Guerrilla warfare tactics aren't as effective in Rifts earth as they are today. We don't have individualized portable radar for every single person on the field. They do.

So I do not see either side having an easy win in a battle. But I do not see any NA kingdom of being likely to topple the CS.

It depends on which sides we're talking about.

/Sub

wyrmraker wrote:Now, I know that, somewhere in one of the books, it mentions Mexico being kept dry by magic. I know I've seen it, but can't remember where. Where does it mention this?

I don't have the book handy but there's a particular demon NPC with control over the weather who keeps rain at the absolute minimum possible (apparently even for magic it's not possible to force complete lack of rain on the area every day all year long) as per an alliance it has with one of the vampire intelligences. It requires powerful magical means to force it to rain against his wishes. At a minimum it should list it under the demon's entry regarding his bargain (fairly standard cowardly bullying thug sort).

Actually it is compatible. The spell is modified when cast in Rifts also see conversion book 1 talks about converting.
Wait some one in rifts has a black hole generator. Building those devices takes fare more time and resources than casting the spell.
The thing is that does not truly match it The mage in less than 15 seconds is starting something that potentially creates armies of troops.

Man portable radars in rifts can not detect people hiding in trees or bombs hidden under ground. Rifts has canon ways to defeat radar and most of the radar units are for air. And CS does not equip every one of there troops with such radars. Guerrilla warfare in rifts is still effective you are fooling yourself if you think it is not. The tactics of it change with tech and magic but it still works. Infarct with magic and tech like any magic force has it actually works better.

Atlantis is not north America I was talking about forces on north America.

I was paraphrasing not quoting and the difference between magic based opposition and force is petty distinction. The fact is they could not just waffle stomp that because it can do to much that they can't. If they could the magic based opposition known as the True Federation of Magic would have been waffle stomped oh wait they cant find it. The cant find a magic based city that opposes them. That is a fact in the books, magic based forces still use tech the CS does not use magic. Meaning the mages have more tools and the CS has more issues to deal with than just numbers.

You make it sound like the magical opposition just rushes in fights the CS head on, many do not. Regardless of the CS tech they are not all seeing all knowing. People can and do hide from them and ambush them.

Just a few thoughts here on why magic might be useful
1) magic can be used to provide instant healing, allowing for a much higher turn around on causuilties than technology can
2) magic can be used to reanimate causilties into instant troops
3) magic can be used to raise the dead, meaning that causiltes can be brought back
4) magic CAN be used to 'mass produce' weapons (talismans and scrolls can both be easily produced in bulk)
5) magic can allow one to divine/predict the future
6) magic can allow for advanced forms of mind control, allowing for infiltration
7) magic can allow for teleportation (in Rifts canon there is no tech teleportation)
magic can allow for undetectable stealth/infiltration for both reconisance, sabotage, and assasinations
9) magic has no need for long logistical supply lines since it can make food, repair damaged equipment, recharge its own supplies, and its fuel is self contained

Yes technology has all sorts of very impressive things it can do. So does magic. It is easy to get in a mind set that one or the other is superior and simply look at the best examples of one and ignore or dismiss the equally strong examples of the other. As the technowizards have found neither is 'superior'

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now, I know that, somewhere in one of the books, it mentions Mexico being kept dry by magic. I know I've seen it, but can't remember where. Where does it mention this?

I don't have the book handy but there's a particular demon NPC with control over the weather who keeps rain at the absolute minimum possible (apparently even for magic it's not possible to force complete lack of rain on the area every day all year long) as per an alliance it has with one of the vampire intelligences. It requires powerful magical means to force it to rain against his wishes. At a minimum it should list it under the demon's entry regarding his bargain (fairly standard cowardly bullying thug sort).

I've mentioned him by name. I think you're referring to Camazotz, the Lord of Bats. He's got a deal with one of the VI's.

/Sub

Blue_Lion wrote:Actually it is compatible. The spell is modified when cast in Rifts also see conversion book 1 talks about converting.
Wait some one in rifts has a black hole generator. Building those devices takes fare more time and resources than casting the spell.

The thing is that does not truly match it The mage in less than 15 seconds is starting something that potentially creates armies of troops.

Don't count the time to build it unless you're going to count the time to develop the spell and learn magic.

Man portable radars in rifts can not detect people hiding in trees or bombs hidden under ground.

The book says noting about power armor radar not detecting people hiding in trees or bombs hidden underground. Also, bombs hidden underground would be technology.

Rifts has canon ways to defeat radar and most of the radar units are for air. And CS does not equip every one of there troops with such radars.

I should have said power armor suits.

Guerrilla warfare in rifts is still effective you are fooling yourself if you think it is not. The tactics of it change with tech and magic but it still works. Infarct with magic and tech like any magic force has it actually works better.

I didn't say it's not effective. I said it's not effective as it is today.

Atlantis is not north America I was talking about forces on north America.

I was addressing what you said.

I was paraphrasing not quoting and the difference between magic based opposition and force is petty distinction. The fact is they could not just waffle stomp that because it can do to much that they can't. If they could the magic based opposition known as the True Federation of Magic would have been waffle stomped oh wait they cant find it. The cant find a magic based city that opposes them. That is a fact in the books, magic based forces still use tech the CS does not use magic. Meaning the mages have more tools and the CS has more issues to deal with than just numbers.

When arming people en masse, it is easier to use tech, because tech can be mass produced and magic cannot.

You make it sound like the magical opposition just rushes in fights the CS head on, many do not. Regardless of the CS tech they are not all seeing all knowing. People can and do hide from them and ambush them.

Show me where I said that, please. All I said is that guerrilla tactics are not as effective as they are today.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:Man portable radars in rifts can not detect people hiding in trees or bombs hidden under ground.

The book says noting about power armor radar not detecting people hiding in trees or bombs hidden underground. Also, bombs hidden underground would be technology.

Perhaps he is referring to RUE p265:
"Radar, Mini...Can NOT track targets on ground level or flying under 200 feet..."

and this (same page):
"Radar, Military Unit (large)...Can NOT track targets on ground level or flying under 100 feet..."

Do we have reason to believe that Power Armor radar which, by definition, must be tiny, is more capable than the "Radar, Military Unit (large)" which is the size of a desk and weighs 300lbs?

--flatline

flatline wrote:Perhaps he is referring to RUE p265:
"Radar, Mini...Can NOT track targets on ground level or flying under 200 feet..."

and this (same page):
"Radar, Military Unit (large)...Can NOT track targets on ground level or flying under 100 feet..."

Do we have reason to believe that Power Armor radar which, by definition, must be tiny, is more capable than the "Radar, Military Unit (large)" which is the size of a desk and weighs 300lbs?

--flatline

What we know is that two of the radar systems specify that they cannot do something and the the third radar system does not mention that exclusion. There is no reason within canon to assume the third cannot.

As for the why of things, I'd say the functionality differences could be a matter of design requirements and intent of use. For example, a 14" gun cannot really aim well at distances of twenty feet, but a pistol can, though the 14" gun can demolish a tank without blinking and no pistol on earth can do that. Similarly, the USS Winston Churchill (a destroyer) cannot outrun the USS Freedom (a littoral combat ship)...but the USS Winston Churchill can do things the USS Freedom cannot.

In this case, the two radar systems with specified limitations may not be designed to detect targets that are small and won't pose a threat to a base or the like, whereas the radar systems designed for power armor may be designed to detect anything that'll be a threat to the power armor alone and not a larger group of people.

/Sub

If I recall right from the book (blanket statement says radar in rifts can not track ground) by default all radar can not track ground unlessit says it can. Will check again when I have time. There are acceptations in CS war there are robot based units say they can track ground vehicles but there is a penalty to do so.

And to just be a devils advocate here....the whole argument 'magic VERSUS technology' is flawed in its premise. It is almost impossible to NOT use technology in some way. Swords are technology, levers are technology, needles, clothes, fire.....in fact by strict definition MAGIC is technology.
Once again the whole "No context makes arguments pointless" thing raises its head

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology

eliakon wrote:And to just be a devils advocate here....the whole argument 'magic VERSUS technology' is flawed in its premise. It is almost impossible to NOT use technology in some way. Swords are technology, levers are technology, needles, clothes, fire.....in fact by strict definition MAGIC is technology.
Once again the whole "No context makes arguments pointless" thing raises its head

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology

Indeed.

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:Now, I know that, somewhere in one of the books, it mentions Mexico being kept dry by magic. I know I've seen it, but can't remember where. Where does it mention this?

I don't have the book handy but there's a particular demon NPC with control over the weather who keeps rain at the absolute minimum possible (apparently even for magic it's not possible to force complete lack of rain on the area every day all year long) as per an alliance it has with one of the vampire intelligences. It requires powerful magical means to force it to rain against his wishes. At a minimum it should list it under the demon's entry regarding his bargain (fairly standard cowardly bullying thug sort).

pretty sure that's actually in south america 1, and the place you're thinking of is colombia, not mexico.

i could be wrong though.

as to the general subject of whether magic can mass-produce weapons... that's not entirely certain.

we don't have any canon TW talisman wood-lathes. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. we don't have any canon TW magic scroll printing presses. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. we don't have any canon TW globe of fire micro-factory. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. we don't have any TW ironwood armour factories. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. we don't have any canon TW bone magic devices that convert various bones into useful magical items. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. we don't have any canon TW zombifiers or mummification devices. but that doesn't mean they couldn't be made.

what we *do* know is that there are canon large organizations that make extensive use of magic and/or TW devices, and there are entire societies where many, most, or even all of the citizens are magic-users within the megaverse. it may not be a *common* path to take, but it is apparently entirely possible.

for example, the lassinikes (aliens unlimited) are a society where literally every person uses magic, officially at least.

the UWW in the phase world setting have fleets of TW ships and marines armed extensively with magic and TW weapons.

stormspire in the federation of magic mass-produces TW weapons and vehicles to sell to adventurers, and have specifically gone out of their way to be able to sell to anyone, not just mages and psychics.

the xiticix have a small variety of what are essentially TW weapons (fairly good ones at that) which are mass-produced as well. they don't have enough for every single xiticix warrior iirc, but when you consider that there are millions upon millions of xiticix warriors even if only one in three (which iirc is the number i recall) have the TK rifles, you've still got a bunch of bugs that have probably produced a few hundred million TK-rifles (depending on which estimate you believe, it may "only" be 1-2 million TK rifles if 1/3 of the warriors have them... but the xiticix book would strongly suggest that there are several hundred million xiticix as a bare minimum)

likewise, the splugorth have produced *billions* of TW power armour suits for their kydian minions, as well as all the equipment for their slaver barges and accompanying troops (each BWW has a TW armour talisman and access to various TW weapons), in addition to all of the stuff that they sell.

as i recall, there is a nation in north america (queen-somethingorother) that makes extensive use of TW weaponry to arm their regular troops.

there is a city of true atlanteans in south america that uses TW tech almost exclusively for their military, including power armour.

the biomancers of the jungle elf kingdom may not have industrialized production of biomancy items, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be anything remotely like a shortage. the biomancers of lemuria, on the other hand (from what i've heard) probably *could* be described as having industrialized the production of various biomancy items. or, at the very least, have produced them on such a large scale that they're commonly available.

magic in north america may not generally speaking be fully industrialized or mass produced, but i have to say that you're really treading on thin ice if you are suggesting that it *cannot* be fully industrialized or mass produced, because to all appearances in at least a few cases that has already happened. whether or not north america on rifts earth is going to have their magical industrial revolution any time soon is up for debate, but it sure as heck doesn't look to be impossible by any means from where i'm standing..

eliakon wrote:And to just be a devils advocate here....the whole argument 'magic VERSUS technology' is flawed in its premise. It is almost impossible to NOT use technology in some way. Swords are technology, levers are technology, needles, clothes, fire.....in fact by strict definition MAGIC is technology.
Once again the whole "No context makes arguments pointless" thing raises its head

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology

You are way off the debate with that. It was that a opposition force using magic and tech(as most magical forces use both.) is will not be just waffle stomped into the ground by the Pure traditional tech of the CS.

In game terms tech and magic are treated as two different things.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:And to just be a devils advocate here....the whole argument 'magic VERSUS technology' is flawed in its premise. It is almost impossible to NOT use technology in some way. Swords are technology, levers are technology, needles, clothes, fire.....in fact by strict definition MAGIC is technology.
Once again the whole "No context makes arguments pointless" thing raises its head

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology

You are way off the debate with that. It was that a opposition force using magic and tech(as most magical forces use both.) is will not be just waffle stomped into the ground by the Pure traditional tech of the CS.

In game terms tech and magic are treated as two different things.

My point was that the argument that 'magic just using tech proves tech is superior' argument is false on its face. So is, trying to define a 'pure magic using' force. Which means that ANY magic using force already has the advantage of using magic + tech (by definition) and that any force not so using magic then is at a disadvantage.
As for curbstomping....Its ludicrously easy to set up any number of hypothetical situations where, by manipulating the base line assumptions, I can have any foregone conclusion I want. I can just as easily set things up for a magical kingdom to curbstomp a tech one, as for a tech one to do the curbstomping. It doesn't prove anything about the relative merits of the abilities in question since its not about the abilities, its about the underlying assumptions being used.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:And to just be a devils advocate here....the whole argument 'magic VERSUS technology' is flawed in its premise. It is almost impossible to NOT use technology in some way. Swords are technology, levers are technology, needles, clothes, fire.....in fact by strict definition MAGIC is technology.
Once again the whole "No context makes arguments pointless" thing raises its head

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technology

You are way off the debate with that. It was that a opposition force using magic and tech(as most magical forces use both.) is will not be just waffle stomped into the ground by the Pure traditional tech of the CS.

That's like saying "an opposition using both cats AND mammals..."
It's missing the point that the first is a sub-category of the second.

In game terms tech and magic are treated as two different things.

Only sometimes, like the references to "the twin sciences: magic and technology" and such.
But not always.

When do the rules treat magic as tech?
I know it has similar abilities but I do not think the rules ever address it as tech.

Would physics vs Metaphysics debate be any better?

Blue_Lion wrote:When do the rules treat magic as tech?
I know it has similar abilities but I do not think the rules ever address it as tech.

Would physics vs Metaphysics debate be any better?

Would it be any worse?

Blue_Lion wrote:When do the rules treat magic as tech?
I know it has similar abilities but I do not think the rules ever address it as tech.

Would physics vs Metaphysics debate be any better?

Its right in the same place where the rules define what 'tech' is...ie never. There is no real definitions of what is, or is not tech, or where tech stops and magic starts, or when they both become 'cosmic' (like the Dominators) Its a great big nebulous area that requires a HUGE amount of specific, narrow definitions to have any sort of real meaningful discussion. Because otherwise your back to the "Are swords tech? Discuss" area.

The Artist Formerly wrote:Not really. Tech is easy. Magic is not. Tech, once you have it, can be popped out as fast as you can build it. Magic has to be trained. And even once someone has gained a spell, they have to teach it in the same slow process, over and over again. Or in game terms, spell levels and PPE are a function of character levels, where as weapons and armor are a function of starting equipment.

Pretty sure to run the factories that produce weapons you will need to be training elec/mech/robot/weap engineers which is also a slow years-long process to educate them.

Subjugator wrote:IIRC, N&SS is not compatible with the rest of the megaversal rules.

Chi Magic is perfectly compatible. Although there are some compatability problems regarding how dodging and WP skills work, that's unrelated to the discussion.

Subjugator wrote:tech can be mass produced and magic cannot.

Both can be. If you can make assembly lines to create power armor, you can make them to create mystic power armor.

If you can make assembly lines to build e-clips you can have assembly lines to build talismans.

While access to high magic is usually restricted... so too is access to high tech.

Mundanes could easily be given loads of magical talismans or scrolls (as could zombies) if necessity mandated. That magicians haven't done that may be less trust in fellow man compared to CS, or simply a lack of necessity because it's so good.

An assembly line is technology.

KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

A dozen mages near a ley line can produce hundreds of Talisman each day. Thousands if they can summon the appropriate assistants.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Subjugator wrote:KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

A dozen mages near a ley line can produce hundreds of Talisman each day. Thousands if they can summon the appropriate assistants.

--flatline

Good luck getting a dozen mages who all know Talisman together, working on the same project.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Subjugator wrote:KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

A dozen mages near a ley line can produce hundreds of Talisman each day. Thousands if they can summon the appropriate assistants.

--flatline

Good luck getting a dozen mages who all know Talisman together, working on the same project.

A single mage with 50 assistants who can absorb PPE from a ley line can create 240 Talisman per hour.

--flaltine

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Subjugator wrote:KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

A dozen mages near a ley line can produce hundreds of Talisman each day. Thousands if they can summon the appropriate assistants.

--flatline

Good luck getting a dozen mages who all know Talisman together, working on the same project.

A single mage with 50 assistants who can absorb PPE from a ley line can create 240 Talisman per hour.

--flaltine

Better.

So the next issue is (surprise, surprise), the Guilds and other competitors.

Then the issue after THAT is that you're choosing the integrity of the rules over the integrity of the setting.
IF things worked as the rules describe, then by all logic the face of Rifts Earth would be quite different, because the technology you describe would logically be used enough to change the balance of power between various groups and nations, and it would have made these changes long before the current setting descriptions.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Subjugator wrote:KC's point aside, to mass produce magic requires lots and lots of people who know magic. To mass produce tech you need a few people who know tech.

/Sub

A dozen mages near a ley line can produce hundreds of Talisman each day. Thousands if they can summon the appropriate assistants.

--flatline

Good luck getting a dozen mages who all know Talisman together, working on the same project.

A single mage with 50 assistants who can absorb PPE from a ley line can create 240 Talisman per hour.

--flaltine

Better.

So the next issue is (surprise, surprise), the Guilds and other competitors.

That would depend on the GM.

Then the issue after THAT is that you're choosing the integrity of the rules over the integrity of the setting.

This is what happens when rules and setting are not designed together. Palladium has always had these issues. It is up to the GM to either adjust the setting to account for what the rules allow or to create limiting mechanisms with house rules.

--flatline

as noted, some places appear to have *already* industrialized magic and are mass producing it.

just because it isn't widely done in north america doesn't mean it can't be done. there are parts of the megaverse where it *is* being done, and some of those parts are even on rifts earth.

Hm.
Well, I think that Stormspire is doing it.
Anybody else mentioned as mass producing magic?

the splugorth, the united worlds of warlock, the lemurians, the true atlantean city in south america (manoa i think?), some city of dwarves in north america (i'm too lazy to look it up, it's the place where regular soldiers and such all use TW fire musket things and there's a lot of kisentite too iirc. queensbury or queenston or something like that?), the xiticix. possibly others that i've missed, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Magefire I think is the TW version of Nurni enterprises, think the had info on it in Merc, town or merc ops.

Shark_Force wrote:the splugorth, the united worlds of warlock, the lemurians, the true atlantean city in south america (manoa i think?), some city of dwarves in north america (i'm too lazy to look it up, it's the place where regular soldiers and such all use TW fire musket things and there's a lot of kisentite too iirc. queensbury or queenston or something like that?), the xiticix. possibly others that i've missed, but those are the ones that come to mind.

I don't recall any of those mentioning mass production.
The xiticix I'm pretty positive do NOT use it.