Forums of the Megaverse®

Any fan made software that i am award of usually gets shut down by PB.

There is a fan podcast if sort that has a forum here. Gateway to the megaverse.

Hm, that's sad on the software side. Two of my ladies asked me tonight if the Rifts system (the Palladium system, I explained to them) was similiar to D20, the Unisystem or Cthulu, since they were trying to put their characters on their Ipads and could find templates for all of those systems. I was hoping someone on here would be working on one, since I remember typing out a character sheet template years and years ago and leaving them for people to use in our gaming group/store, and I figured someone more tech savy (say, who can use a smart phone ) would be on it.

Hm, Gateway huh? That didn't turn up when I searched RPG podcasts, I'll have to look into it! Is it officially supported at all, or fan made?

How about we discuss a plan rather than push blame off onto retailers, the publisher, or other players. None of those are inside our ability to control and only serve to distract from possible solutions. Here's mine:

1. Secure a public venue and host a consistent, weekly, game session.
2. Inform local vendors of the location and time of the session (if they are not the actual site of the game).
i. Suggest that the proprietor order copies of the core rules, indicating that you intend to incentivise purchase.
3. Reduce the necessary effort for players to participate to the bare minimum.
i. Pregenerate easy to use characters.
ii. Prepare handouts summarizing frequently referenced rules, especially any houserules that have been added.
iii. Have plenty of dice, scratch paper, pencils, etc.
4. Run high quality gaming sessions that emphasize exciting setting elements, player agency, and action. Be a cordial host and a patient teacher of the game.
5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.
6. ???
7. Profit.

That's more or less how I've been doing it in Klamath for the last year or so. I've sold at least four copies of the core rules and I have a full table almost every week. The store owner stocks very little in the way of RPGs, it's more of a card shop, but Rifts is represented.

Bill wrote:How about we discuss a plan rather than push blame off onto retailers, the publisher, or other players. None of those are inside our ability to control and only serve to distract from possible solutions. Here's mine:

1. Secure a public venue and host a consistent, weekly, game session.
2. Inform local vendors of the location and time of the session (if they are not the actual site of the game).
i. Suggest that the proprietor order copies of the core rules, indicating that you intend to incentivise purchase.
3. Reduce the necessary effort for players to participate to the bare minimum.
i. Pregenerate easy to use characters.
ii. Prepare handouts summarizing frequently referenced rules, especially any houserules that have been added.
iii. Have plenty of dice, scratch paper, pencils, etc.
4. Run high quality gaming sessions that emphasize exciting setting elements, player agency, and action. Be a cordial host and a patient teacher of the game.
5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.
6. ???
7. Profit.

That's more or less how I've been doing it in Klamath for the last year or so. I've sold at least four copies of the core rules and I have a full table almost every week. The store owner stocks very little in the way of RPGs, it's more of a card shop, but Rifts is represented.

1-4 - Exactly what do you think we HAVE been doing? That is precisely what Megaversal Ambassadors DO.

5 - So in order to let people play I should require they OWN the core book and I should also (as per the other part of #2) tell the vendor to purchase copies of said books "just in case" they might sell because I require the players to own the core book just to play in the game? Honestly that is pretty counter-intuitive to getting people to play.


To HAVE a plan, we have to come with HOW to get around the items you claim we are pushing blame on.

#1-4 is in our control and MANY of us already do this as much as we can. This isn't new or a plan. It ISN'T working for many of us.

#5 seems counter-intuitive to enticing people to play and get into the game as you are requiring the own books just to play.

If this is your plan, have at it as most of us have already been doing that (at least #1-4) for years.

Bill wrote:5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.

Let me see If I can put this into how the average gamer will view this...
"You are holding certain core book character classes hostage? Unless I buy the book?"
"Come on guys... we dont want to play this game... its fans are *******."

Now the requiring the World Books for their classes is acceptable and a common practice in the hobby.

Ninjabunny wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Bill wrote:How about we discuss a plan rather than push blame off onto retailers, the publisher, or other players. None of those are inside our ability to control and only serve to distract from possible solutions. Here's mine:

1. Secure a public venue and host a consistent, weekly, game session.
2. Inform local vendors of the location and time of the session (if they are not the actual site of the game).
i. Suggest that the proprietor order copies of the core rules, indicating that you intend to incentivise purchase.
3. Reduce the necessary effort for players to participate to the bare minimum.
i. Pregenerate easy to use characters.
ii. Prepare handouts summarizing frequently referenced rules, especially any houserules that have been added.
iii. Have plenty of dice, scratch paper, pencils, etc.
4. Run high quality gaming sessions that emphasize exciting setting elements, player agency, and action. Be a cordial host and a patient teacher of the game.
5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.
6. ???
7. Profit.

That's more or less how I've been doing it in Klamath for the last year or so. I've sold at least four copies of the core rules and I have a full table almost every week. The store owner stocks very little in the way of RPGs, it's more of a card shop, but Rifts is represented.

1-4 - Exactly what do you think we HAVE been doing? That is precisely what Megaversal Ambassadors DO.

5 - So in order to let people play I should require they OWN the core book and I should also (as per the other part of #2) tell the vendor to purchase copies of said books "just in case" they might sell because I require the players to own the core book just to play in the game? Honestly that is pretty counter-intuitive to getting people to play.


To HAVE a plan, we have to come with HOW to get around the items you claim we are pushing blame on.

#1-4 is in our control and MANY of us already do this as much as we can. This isn't new or a plan. It ISN'T working for many of us.

#5 seems counter-intuitive to enticing people to play and get into the game as you are requiring the own books just to play.

If this is your plan, have at it as most of us have already been doing that (at least #1-4) for years.

Maybe it's just me but isn't this what has been said for almost 7 pages now! WE have done all WE can.

I seem to recall the last seven pages being similar. As a side note, you have to be really careful in suggesting things like that to your local game store. They might slap a lifetime ban on you for "demanding" they carry something they have no intention on carrying. They don't care about losing your business because of the Magic players. That is where they make their big money so they don't care about you (roleplayers in general not anybody on this board specifically).

Ninjabunny wrote:My local store orders in any book you want for you they won't order in extra copies unless you are buying them. In fact in my years of going there they have only ordered in a extra book twice (both times for me ) CoC and AFMBE, they knew they would sell and they did the day after I picked up my copies. They do the bulk of business from Warhammer minis, comics and CCG We role players are a beloved client base but we only make up a small fraction of the business they get.

And those others are a higher repeat purchase base than we are to boot...
Priority From the owners perspective...
Assume every customer visits once a week.
CCGs- Boosters every visit
Minis- Supplies every 2 visits, a new mini every 3
Comics- new book every 4 visits (Most collectors buy multiple titles so more like 1 purchase every visit)
RPGs- Core books (once) and maybe a supplement every 8 to 12 visits.

If the new generation of gamers has taught me anything, RPG sales are all about dice. They might actually out perform Warhammer in the 'plastic-crack' competition. Not that this helps anything, just blew my mind that people wanted dice for every different character, themes, ect.

Eashamahel wrote:If the new generation of gamers has taught me anything, RPG sales are all about dice. They might actually out perform Warhammer in the 'plastic-crack' competition. Not that this helps anything, just blew my mind that people wanted dice for every different character, themes, ect.

I can't say that's exactly a new generation thing? I'd buy a new set of dice with every new game I ran or played in. Chessex owns at least 5% of my soul, those glorious bastards.



My GM is even worse than me - he's even got 2 of the D20s that flash bright red when you roll a 20 and a set of softball sized foam dice (though those are more for stress relief assaults on various players than actually using) on top of bags n bags of dice.

hahaha, alright, I admit, I may have bought a set I liked when I first started, then an extra, different D20 for rolling NPC attacks, so it didn't somehow cosmically polute my character dice. And themed WoD dice. I guess it's the same for everyone, I just don't like to admit it

Eashamahel wrote:If the new generation of gamers has taught me anything, RPG sales are all about dice. They might actually out perform Warhammer in the 'plastic-crack' competition. Not that this helps anything, just blew my mind that people wanted dice for every different character, themes, ect.

Definitely not a new generation thing. I have loads and loads of dice. Some are for specific characters and then tons of "general purpose" dice.

Icefalcon wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:If the new generation of gamers has taught me anything, RPG sales are all about dice. They might actually out perform Warhammer in the 'plastic-crack' competition. Not that this helps anything, just blew my mind that people wanted dice for every different character, themes, ect.

Definitely not a new generation thing. I have loads and loads of dice. Some are for specific characters and then tons of "general purpose" dice.

not all hobbyists are like that but a large number are...
In the game club (close to 150 full time members) I belong to; 3 of us have what are referred to (by some) as the Dice bags of Shame (I prefer the name "BFoD" big freaking bag o' dice) (huge collections of spare dice for those that forget or do not have sets of their own as yet) but most of the players do own at least one set of dice.
I think 3/4 of us own more than one set.
Typically 3 sets
One set of traditional polyhedrals
One set of 24 d6s (for those d6 die pool games)
One set of 30 d10s (WoD games)
Then maybe 1/2 of that own more than 3 sets...
and then there are the 3 of us I mentioned earlier (point of interest: We are the only GMs in the group as well...)

Damian Magecraft wrote:(point of interest: We are the only GMs in the group as well...)

You know, now that you mention it I think only two people that I know with big bags of dice are not GM's.

I don't know why everyone missread Bill - he didn't say you HAD to own the books.

OMG, he's going to run a city rats game at a game shop - how DARE he!?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.

Let me see If I can put this into how the average gamer will view this...
"You are holding certain core book character classes hostage? Unless I buy the book?"
"Come on guys... we dont want to play this game... its fans are *******."

So nightmask is right and the players are right to feel they are entitled to play whatever they like?

If the players can stomach a restricted choice of classes, then they can stomach this. It's no different.

If they players can't accept a restricted choice but we simply must accept them into play anyway, well welcome back to 'some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate.' as someone put it.

Noon wrote:I don't know why everyone missread Bill - he didn't say you HAD to own the books.

OMG, he's going to run a city rats game at a game shop - how DARE he!?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:5. Incentivise purchase of the core book by requiring it for permission to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users. Incentivise purchase of supplements by requiring that the books be present at the table for the GM to review before any character class can be approved.

Let me see If I can put this into how the average gamer will view this...
"You are holding certain core book character classes hostage? Unless I buy the book?"
"Come on guys... we dont want to play this game... its fans are *******."

So nightmask is right and the players are right to feel they are entitled to play whatever they like?

If the players can stomach a restricted choice of classes, then they can stomach this. It's no different.

If they players can't accept a restricted choice but we simply must accept them into play anyway, well welcome back to 'some closet munchkin looking for a game group to mentally/emotionally dominate.' as someone put it.

restricting a class or power because you do not want it in your game is different from restricting a core book class because you do not own the book. (but you knew that when you replied looking to start a flame war... you are so easy to read).
Note: he says he allows unrestricted access if and only if they purchase the Core book... No misreading that.
That is holding the class hostage... it does nothing to further the idea that the fan base is not a bunch of Toxic Fanbois; If anything it perpetuates the myth.

And the concept of holding core classes hostage to monetary expenditures is unacceptable in this hobby by any standard. (we are not pay per play web sites).

Now it is a common practice to restrict access to alternate classes from supplemental books by requiring that
1. the person using said class has access to said supplement (usually by owning it).
2. Access to said supplement be available to the GM (either by him owning or letting him read over the book)
3. Said supplement be physically present at the game table (for when a questionable power/ability is used it can be verified by a spot check).

WAIT WAIT GUYS, I GOT IT. HOT CHICKS IN BATHING SUITS AND IMPLIED TENTACLE PORN.

Oh wait. They already tried that. Damnit.

My requirement to purchase the book is based on the practical experience of needing to have one available for quick reference when playing a spell caster or psychic. I don't have multiple copies of the core book to float around the table and I don't allow electronic copies at the table. Nobody has ever walked away from my game because of the requirement either.

Perhaps I am better at delivering my justification than others would be though. I also have a very positive relationship with the owner of my local store, whic others may lack. It has taken time and effort to accomplish, I've run games there for two years, but he trusts that when I suggest he bring product in it will sell. I've chosen to work with the community that exists and promote the game on its merits.

I live in an isolated rural town with a small population. There's not a lot of gamers here, but somehow I end up with a full table every week (eight people tonight). Maybe all of the MAs are doing the best they can and maybe they can do better. Fixating on things we can't change won't help though.

Why don't you allow electronic copies?

I personally think they could do with some fully flesh out adventures. While the hook, line and sinkers are nice... for people new to the world and mechanics, it could be a little more difficult.

You'd have to format adventures more akin to party make up.

So you have an adventure "For 4-6 players of low to medium power. 1 Magic user strongly recommended" or "For 3-5 players of high power."

Sure, they wouldn't appeal to everyone, but it's the biggest component I've felt is missing from Rifts. Many people new, really need clear cut adventures. Not only does it help ease, but it also helps GMs and players get a feeling for how to play Rifts... because it's a game like no other.

I also think books of premade characters, minus equipment and a name, could really help too. Most people we've introduced to Rifts always run a character we've made for them. After a little while they get to reading through enough books that they find a character they want to make. Then we step them through it.


-------------------------

On a different thought... in response to the comments about the game system: What do you feel the response would be if Palladium suddenly decided that the way to go is to develop a new mechanic and move the world forward, making all previous books obsolete? Sure, there'd be people to buy the new books, but I think there'd be a huge number of people crying foul.

And regarding the kitchen sink, we play it because it's a kitchen sink setting. It does skill and experience to properly GM though.

I disallow electronic books because I know all too well how easy it is to acquire pirated copies and one of my objectives is to sell books, supporting both the store where we play and Palladium. Obviously people can pick up used books off the internet for a fraction of the retail price and it contributes nothing to either the store or Palladium, but I've found that most folks will buy books off the shelf or order them from the store when I explain my motives. I'm very persuasive.

glitterboy2098 wrote: if you had continued reading, you would find i included an explanation, it just wound up on page 2.

the problem isn't the system. its the fact that the palladium fandom just won't stop complaining about the system.

You're right, it would have been better from me to read the four pages before writing a reply.
Unfortunately, it wouldn't change anything.

Before the "you hate Palladium" or "you're a bad GM", no I don't hate Palladium.
Rifts is my very first RPG and has a special place in my heart, and about my abilities of game mastering, even I'm very far from being perfect, I have very few problems during my games.
In the last 10 years, I mastered only 3 times a game of Rifts (two of them a total disaster ... because of a player who is a Rifts GM himself) and then, suddenly, there was a huge problem, I discovered D&D 3.5 and L5R and many other RPG, and then, one day, I open a Rifts book, and I thought "This is crap".
The game system is utterly outdated. Even if I try to forget the problem for me, players can noticed several issues and among them, the lack of flexibility to with your character.

You see, even if I make offerts to play Rifts, there will be problems.
But hey, we are missing the main point.
This is a game, players must have fun, GM must have fun. Why am I suppose to make efforts for mastering a game ???

How is it working ? I give money to a RPG company and I have a product that please me.
I bought nearly 20 books from PB in 90's, few in 2000', and since then, none, because there was nothing I wanted.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
in palladium it's "yeah, palladium's rules are [explitive], they should rewrite the game to be more like [insert popular game here], but kevin is a [derogatory comment] and won't listen to the fans"
every single ******* time.

That doesn't make sense AT ALL and I don't see people here asking PB to rewrite Rifts to make is closer to another game.
But I remind Kevin doing derogatory comments about D20 and D&D, trying to explain that no second Edition of Rifts is in the pipe.

glitterboy2098 wrote: the key thing to getting more people to play? making the enviroment friendly. making sure the people trying to bring in new players are creating a personal enviroment, both in their game and in the fandom, that is conductive to making new players feel at home and feel they can enjoy this game.

Sure, it's what I do ... with D&D and soon Shadows of Esteren.
You know what ? Just thinking about creating new character sheets is painful.

glitterboy2098 wrote: hell, i'm writing a book for palladium, i love this game and the company, and there are days when all the complaining makes ME want to never come back to these forums.

i've run PB games. i've played a lot of PB game's. i write PB game material. and i've found that if your 'fighting' the system, your doing it wrong. the palladium system actually flows pretty easily and smoothly when your not trying to force it to conform to some other ruleset's expectations.

I know that I post just my modest opinion about the subject, and I hope that you know that your opinion is just another one.
Now, could stop trying to read my mind paying attention to the fact that MANY posters have problem with the system ?

glitterboy2098 wrote: and i don't house rule. if something comes up, i will make a judgement call and use that call as precident if it occurs again, but the need has happened very rarely. guess what? the system still works.

You know, my last games were about a dimensionnal/temporal loop and there is quite few games that allow that easily, but with Rifts, there isn't even the beginning of a problem.
In one of that game, with totally new players, I played without thinking about the game system, that was quite pleasant.

Bill wrote:I disallow electronic books because I know all too well how easy it is to acquire pirated copies and one of my objectives is to sell books, supporting both the store where we play and Palladium. Obviously people can pick up used books off the internet for a fraction of the retail price and it contributes nothing to either the store or Palladium, but I've found that most folks will buy books off the shelf or order them from the store when I explain my motives. I'm very persuasive.

Stuff I know I want, I order straight from Palladium (haven't found a local store to order through).

Stuff I'm not really interested in but find for less than $5, I'll grab used just to see if I'll like it. And I feel no guilt at all.

If this were a healthy eco-system, purchasing from the secondary market would still help since primary buyers would be more willing to purchase books as they come out knowing they can sell it used if they don't like it.

--flatline

Bill wrote:I disallow electronic books because I know all too well how easy it is to acquire pirated copies and one of my objectives is to sell books, supporting both the store where we play and Palladium. Obviously people can pick up used books off the internet for a fraction of the retail price and it contributes nothing to either the store or Palladium, but I've found that most folks will buy books off the shelf or order them from the store when I explain my motives. I'm very persuasive.

Then you have been very lucky...
I know many players who (like myself) will judge if a system is worth expending their hard earned money on how well they like the more "complex" characters like the mage.
By telling them they can not see how one interacts by playing one without purchasing the book first will just make them look else where.

notafraid2die wrote:Pre-generated, run of the mill, bad guys would be nice. Covering all levels. When I sit down to write a campaign, I'm all about... until I get to the npc generation. Especially the canon fodder.

When I have some time I will put some together for my pre-gen thread. Anyone got requests?

Dog Pack
I.S.S Team
Dead Boy Squad

What else?

RuneKatana wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:When I have some time I will put some together for my pre-gen thread. Anyone got requests?

Dog Pack
I.S.S Team
Dead Boy Squad

What else?

Not requests per se, but just suggestions

• A group of cultists with a magic user or two
• Go-gang, maybe a couple of juicers & wannabes
• Highwaymen (flavor-wise it could be regular bandits, Pecos, or just whatever is indiginous to the area. This wouldn't change stats or equipment much)
• Splugorth slaver group
• Mystic Knights / other high powered merc group
• Squad of ARCHIE bots
• A couple different "packs" of random generated monsters from RMB
• A group of pretty much anything from Conversion Book 1. I love Gigantes and Rahu-Men.

Excellent suggestions. Will do. I won't have an opening until next week, but I'll get on it.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:I disallow electronic books because I know all too well how easy it is to acquire pirated copies and one of my objectives is to sell books, supporting both the store where we play and Palladium. Obviously people can pick up used books off the internet for a fraction of the retail price and it contributes nothing to either the store or Palladium, but I've found that most folks will buy books off the shelf or order them from the store when I explain my motives. I'm very persuasive.

Then you have been very lucky...
I know many players who (like myself) will judge if a system is worth expending their hard earned money on how well they like the more "complex" characters like the mage.
By telling them they can not see how one interacts by playing one without purchasing the book first will just make them look else where.

You can't make all of the people happy all of the time.

To be honest, my target audience isn't jaded grognards that need to understand how everything works before they buy. It's fresh-faced kids who are easily excited by possibilities. Everybody's welcome at my table, but I make no promises of accommodation or that they'll like the product. And really, if it became that big an issue, I'd be happy to sit down with somebody outside of a session and discuss with them all of the joys and pains of playing a mage in this game. And if they still really wanted to play one before they bought a copy of the book we could work something out. I made my rules for my convenience and everyone I've encountered recognizes that this is my hobby, not my job, so they cut me some slack.

Bill wrote:To be honest, my target audience isn't jaded grognards that need to understand how everything works before they buy. It's fresh-faced kids who are easily excited by possibilities. Everybody's welcome at my table, but I make no promises of accommodation or that they'll like the product. And really, if it became that big an issue, I'd be happy to sit down with somebody outside of a session and discuss with them all of the joys and pains of playing a mage in this game. And if they still really wanted to play one before they bought a copy of the book we could work something out. I made my rules for my convenience and everyone I've encountered recognizes that this is my hobby, not my job, so they cut me some slack.

To be Honest...
You said it yourself...
Your target audience is from a small town
If you tried that in a large urban area you would find things work a tad differently.
And here is a shocker for you...
Not every mage player is a "jaded grognard."
Wizard was my first character ever in the hobby (it was the only the character of interest to me back then). If the GM had told me I had to buy the books before I could play one do you think I would have bothered with the hobby? There were plenty of other things out there to hold my interest besides Roleplaying.
I deal with more new to the hobby magic users than any other type of player.
What you propose sounds more like this...

"I will teach you how to play chess but unless you spend your hard earned money on this expensive chess set I am not going show you how the more complex pieces like the Rook, Knight, Bishop, and Queen work."

Damian Magecraft wrote:restricting a class or power because you do not want it in your game is different from restricting a core book class because you do not own the book. (but you knew that when you replied looking to start a flame war... you are so easy to read).

Do you have any examples of people who do not agree with you, but you do not take to be starting a flame war?

Just use the report button if you think so - someone who wants to start a flame war does not care if you insinuate that. The only person who would care is someone to whom it would be a false insinuation. Or do you think someone just here to make a fuss would somehow care about your brackets?

Note: he says he allows unrestricted access if and only if they purchase the Core book... No misreading that.
That is holding the class hostage... it does nothing to further the idea that the fan base is not a bunch of Toxic Fanbois; If anything it perpetuates the myth.

And the concept of holding core classes hostage to monetary expenditures is unacceptable in this hobby by any standard.

I don't know how you arrive at this standard. So Bill didn't have to buy a rifts main book in order to play? He had to hand over money in order to play a core class.

Okay, you've got this idea that the core classes (once someones bought a book) have to be released for use to anyone you invite to play rifts. Can't expect them to buy the books themselves, it's all on the person who bought the book (paid to play) originally.

I don't know why, but you do.

I'm not aware of any such requirement.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:To be honest, my target audience isn't jaded grognards that need to understand how everything works before they buy. It's fresh-faced kids who are easily excited by possibilities. Everybody's welcome at my table, but I make no promises of accommodation or that they'll like the product. And really, if it became that big an issue, I'd be happy to sit down with somebody outside of a session and discuss with them all of the joys and pains of playing a mage in this game. And if they still really wanted to play one before they bought a copy of the book we could work something out. I made my rules for my convenience and everyone I've encountered recognizes that this is my hobby, not my job, so they cut me some slack.

*snip*
Wizard was my first character ever in the hobby (it was the only the character of interest to me back then). If the GM had told me I had to buy the books before I could play one do you think I would have bothered with the hobby? There were plenty of other things out there to hold my interest besides Roleplaying.
*snip*

So we'd be down a player who thinks it is the GM job and not a hobby for the GM?

I think another thing that would get more people to play rifts is, if GM'ing is a job, stop making it a job and make it a hobby. Because hobbies are fun and unpaid jobs are a kind of slavery - which is kinda less fun.

"I will teach you how to play chess but unless you spend your hard earned money on this expensive chess set I am not going show you how the more complex pieces like the Rook, Knight, Bishop, and Queen work."

If every occ HAS to be available like every chess piece HAS to be available, I'd agree with you.

I think you keep imagining it like this
Bill: "You can play ANY of these classes!"
Player: "Okay, I'll play this one *points at LLW*"
Bill: "PAYWALL PAYWALL PAYWALL!"

When it's
Bill: "Hey, you can play a city rat or a vagabond or a headhunter in this game I'm running"
Player: "Okay. Hey, what about these other classes?"
Bill: "Yeah, they are a bit more complicated so I'd prefer if you have the books for those"
Player "Okay, cool. I'll be a head hunter..."

Noon wrote:I think you keep imagining it like this
Bill: "You can play ANY of these classes!"
Player: "Okay, I'll play this one *points at LLW*"
Bill: "PAYWALL PAYWALL PAYWALL!"

That is exactly how the original post came across

Bill wrote:5. Incentivise purchase of the core book

Encourage buying the core book (that is what incentivise means

by requiring it

Last time I checked Require meant to make necessary...

for permission

For consent (to allow)

to use the more complex character options, such as psychics and magic users.

this is pretty straight forward... Psychics and magic users are classes available in the core book that makes them core classes.
So what does it mean?
well translated into simple terms...
Encourage buying the book by making it necessary to allow the use of select core classes.
And that is what would be called holding classes hostage.
"Sorry you cant play that class because you did not spend $40 on the RUE."
That is exactly how that reads.

When it's
Bill: "Hey, you can play a city rat or a vagabond or a headhunter in this game I'm running"
Player: "Okay. Hey, what about these other classes?"
Bill: "Yeah, they are a bit more complicated so I'd prefer if you have the books for those"
Player "Okay, cool. I'll be a head hunter..."

Did you notice it was only after someone pointed out what he said sounded like as you put it "PAYWALL PAYWALL PAYWALL" that further explanation was given making it seem like he meant something else?
In debate we call that back pedaling.

SmilingJack wrote:In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

Guys, let's not have this devolve into an argument that will get the thread locked. Please? I am having a good time debating this and would like to see it stay open a bit longer.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

Could you clarify that KC?

That you consider this a debate is part of the problem. I'm not here to beat any of you or prove some kind of point. I'm sharing what's worked for me. You are creating a hostile environment, not conducive to bringing new people into the community. If I had a thinner skin, I'd be long gone. So I propose that step one of our combined efforts to broaden the player base be that you and a few others around here lighten up.

Bill wrote:That you consider this a debate is part of the problem. I'm not here to beat any of you or prove some kind of point.

Debates are not always about winning or losing. They are about presenting your salient points in an attempt to change perception in the person or persons you are debating with. It can be used to reach a common consensus, among other things.

Bill wrote:I'm sharing what's worked for me.

I appreciate your sharing your viewpoints but not the snark added to incite others.

Bill wrote:You are creating a hostile environment, not conducive to bringing new people into the community. If I had a thinner skin, I'd be long gone. So I propose that step one of our combined efforts to broaden the player base be that you and a few others around here lighten up.

I am not the one causing a hostile environment. I have kept my comments rather light, considering.

Icefalcon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

Could you clarify that KC?

Ask 10 different Rifts fans why the like the game, and you'll get 3d4 different answers.
Some people play it as a zany cartoon, some play it as a fairly serious drama, and some play it in-between.
Some think that the mega-cliches (the rehashes of modern stereotypes for each region) are THE POINT of the game, and some think that they're a tragic failing on the part of some writers in some books.
Some think that the game is supposed to make sense. Some think that it's actively NOT supposed to make sense.
And that's not even getting into the different views of the rules.

Ha! That comment was actually in response to Damian. That you took it the way you did is illustrative though. You guys are so wrapped up in this game of pseudointellectual one-upsmanship that you had to respond. I reiterate, lighten up.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

Could you clarify that KC?

Ask 10 different Rifts fans why the like the game, and you'll get 3d4 different answers.
Some people play it as a zany cartoon, some play it as a fairly serious drama, and some play it in-between.
Some think that the mega-cliches (the rehashes of modern stereotypes for each region) are THE POINT of the game, and some think that they're a tragic failing on the part of some writers in some books.
Some think that the game is supposed to make sense. Some think that it's actively NOT supposed to make sense.
And that's not even getting into the different views of the rules.

Thanks for the clarification. I think I see where you are going with this. I can even agree to a point. For example, we should all know that the game is a dystopian post-apocalypse setting (because it says so in the intro). However, some people do not even agree with that. Is that more where you are going with this?

Bill wrote:Ha! That comment was actually in response to Damian. That you took it the way you did is illustrative though. You guys are so wrapped up in this game of pseudointellectual one-upsmanship that you had to respond. I reiterate, lighten up.

I took it as directed at me because you posted that after two of my posts without quoting who it was directed at. Even given that is was directed another poster does not preclude my refuting your logic.

Sigh. By working so hard to prove me wrong, you prove me right. I hope you have a good night.

Icefalcon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SmilingJack wrote:In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

Could you clarify that KC?

Ask 10 different Rifts fans why the like the game, and you'll get 3d4 different answers.
Some people play it as a zany cartoon, some play it as a fairly serious drama, and some play it in-between.
Some think that the mega-cliches (the rehashes of modern stereotypes for each region) are THE POINT of the game, and some think that they're a tragic failing on the part of some writers in some books.
Some think that the game is supposed to make sense. Some think that it's actively NOT supposed to make sense.
And that's not even getting into the different views of the rules.

Thanks for the clarification. I think I see where you are going with this. I can even agree to a point. For example, we should all know that the game is a dystopian post-apocalypse setting (because it says so in the intro). However, some people do not even agree with that. Is that more where you are going with this?

Pretty much.
In the past, I've said that Rifts is more of a rorschach blot than a RPG, because we all seem to see in it whatever we want to see in it.
This can be a strength, in that it draws in a very wide variety of people.
But it's a weakness, because those people aren't easily able to interact with each other, because they're not really playing the same game.
Without a common vision, there cannot be a common cause.
Everybody wants different things, and Kevin tries to please them all (or most of them, anyway).
The result is a system and setting that's built by committee, and the net result is that many are alienated while a small few are incredibly pleased.
Which is fine if you only want a small, niche market... but it's not so good if you want a broad audience.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Pretty much.
In the past, I've said that Rifts is more of a rorschach blot than a RPG, because we all seem to see in it whatever we want to see in it.
This can be a strength, in that it draws in a very wide variety of people.
But it's a weakness, because those people aren't easily able to interact with each other, because they're not really playing the same game.
Without a common vision, there cannot be a common cause.
Everybody wants different things, and Kevin tries to please them all (or most of them, anyway).
The result is a system and setting that's built by committee, and the net result is that many are alienated while a small few are incredibly pleased.
Which is fine if you only want a small, niche market... but it's not so good if you want a broad audience.

So are you advocating for a streamlining of the system? Not necessarily the rules but the setting itself?

Bill wrote:Sigh. By working so hard to prove me wrong, you prove me right. I hope you have a good night.

now who is trying to one up who?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:Sigh. By working so hard to prove me wrong, you prove me right. I hope you have a good night.

now who is trying to one up who?

I was going to leave it alone because he clearly believes I am attempting to be antagonistic.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Bill wrote:Sigh. By working so hard to prove me wrong, you prove me right. I hope you have a good night.

now who is trying to one up who?

I was going to leave it alone because he clearly believes I am attempting to be antagonistic.

Please eberyone knows thats my job.

I bow before the Ninjabunny's expertise.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Get people to agree on what Rifts IS.

I always thought this was an interesting point of the game. I liked the old, gritty, P.A. survival in a wold of madness, some others like the comedy, the super-heroics, the whatever-it-is.

As long as the game included a bit of everything, everyone was at least somewhat happy, and if this book wasn't like that concept, it was okay, because you didn't NEED every book to play. The issue to me was that it wasn't a constant back-and-forth between different styles, the game seemed to progress directly AWAY from the stated original style and towards another one. Even just a quick look at how Long used to draw people in Rifts and how Perrez does it, where only the bad guys wear armour, the good guys fight in tight fitting shirts and leather jackets, ect, shows how everything changed.

At this point, or I suppose some time ago now, deciding on WHAT the game is supposed to 'feel' like and it's themes would probably just alienate a far number of their long-term fans, who, I can only assume, are their main customer base.

Unfortunately I can tell you exactly how we as the community can get more people to play Rifts... Generally we cannot, I've had fliers out - I've carted four boxes of books to the FLGS to let people paw over to get them excited about playing... I had four-six who were interested, two who turned in sheets and I can't tell you how many who said the rules were drek but the setting was cool and the mechs and stuff were shiny.

I offered to walk everyone individually through the character creation process, I offered to leave my books that I've invested a very heavy chunk of change into with the more trusted of these folks and got the same response every time. "Meh." is the politest way to put it.

You can bend over backwards to support a game but if the company makes no attempt to meet you halfway there's no way to bring in more players.

PB has repeatedly slapped down software programs (four I know of for sure, all of them character generators)... Refused any and all constructive criticism, can't get a book out on time after posting release dates (which leads to FLGS not carrying anything by Palladium). The list goes on and on and on - but mainly Jaymz and Ninjabunny have it right; we can't do anything else until PB cleans up their act and actually meets us halfway.

I know that I would never participate in any game where the GM force me to buy a core book or any supplement.
From the culture where I come from, the GM is the one with the books, you sit down with the GM and make the character together - so that there is a good communication between the player and GM. maybe some will buy a book, but if it happens, it is more if that player himself/herself wans to be a GM at a later day.

Dunia wrote:I know that I would never participate in any game where the GM force me to buy a core book or any supplement.
From the culture where I come from, the GM is the one with the books, you sit down with the GM and make the character together - so that there is a good communication between the player and GM. maybe some will buy a book, but if it happens, it is more if that player himself/herself wans to be a GM at a later day.

From the culture you come from...how big are the normal parties? In some games I've run, I could pull that off, but in others, it'd take me weeks just to get all those characters created.

Marrowlight wrote:

Dunia wrote:I know that I would never participate in any game where the GM force me to buy a core book or any supplement.
From the culture where I come from, the GM is the one with the books, you sit down with the GM and make the character together - so that there is a good communication between the player and GM. maybe some will buy a book, but if it happens, it is more if that player himself/herself wans to be a GM at a later day.

From the culture you come from...how big are the normal parties? In some games I've run, I could pull that off, but in others, it'd take me weeks just to get all those characters created.

Agreed. I have run groups as large as 22 people.

I'm not sure how any player is supposed to feel like he's contributing much to the party at that size. That's not a group of PC's, that's a mercenary company on the hoof. Not sure how you manage to give everyone adequate screentime.

Anything much over 8 is really pushing it. With the Palladium System unless you're playing P. Fantasy it seems to me that anything over 6 is pushing it actually.

How do you handle all the inevitable logistics issues? How do you keep the extraneous players from just getting bored?