Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[eliakon]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

The idea that a subsystem on the UEDF and ASC mecha may use and emit protoculture energy is just an explanation to fit the existing rule.

I think I already noted that a list of vehicles thought to run on protoculture doesn't constitute a rule, the rule is 'this sensor tracks things that run on protoculture due to their protoculture emissions'. If a vehicle says it runs on or was converted to something that's not protoculture then it by definition doesn't go on the list because it no longer qualifies for the list. So claiming that 'well they must run on protoculture somewhere because they're on THE LIST' is assuming facts not in evidence, if they aren't explicitly said to run on protoculture then they don't and don't go on the list.

To put it another way, you have THE LIST of vehicles that DON'T run on protoculture, only for someone to refit one (say an electric car) so it runs on protoculture. Would you then argue that because it's explicitly on a list of vehicles that don't run on protoculture then the sensor can't track it, even though it's been explicitly altered to do so? I would hope not. So why then treat a list that's supposed to be derived from a rule as being sacrosanct and without error to the point of insisting that everything on the list must always be valid and remain on the list when the rule it derives from no longer applies? Because that list definitely is not a rule, the rule is regarding what the sensor tracks, the list itself is subject to the actual rule and is factually in error if it lists things that don't fit the rule, and one certainly can't say the information on all the other vehicles being no longer Protoculture-powered to be wrong because it requires insisting on things not factually known to exist in regards to them and to be directly contrary to what is said to be factually known to exist about them.

I mean I can't see why anyone would insist that that list is somehow a rule or that the actual rule isn't what it actually is when it requires contradicting so many other things, other than out of some need to slap a 'canon seal of approval' on the idea so you can give extra combat bonuses to the Invid against all the Earth mecha the Player characters are using even when the bonus shouldn't be there. Because some of the responses have left me with a 'oh no we can't have the PC running around with mecha that don't show up on the Invid sensors!' vibe.

because
1) the statement that 'this works on this' is pretty much the definition of a rule
2) changing the main drive of something may or may not change how all the smaller bits work
Again there is this assumption that A (this device emits protoculture emissions for some reason) equals B (that the device has protoculture as its main powersource) This is not stated in the books!
Thus while B=A, A=/=B. Similarly while !A=!B, !B=/=!A

[Nightmask]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

The idea that a subsystem on the UEDF and ASC mecha may use and emit protoculture energy is just an explanation to fit the existing rule.

I think I already noted that a list of vehicles thought to run on protoculture doesn't constitute a rule, the rule is 'this sensor tracks things that run on protoculture due to their protoculture emissions'. If a vehicle says it runs on or was converted to something that's not protoculture then it by definition doesn't go on the list because it no longer qualifies for the list. So claiming that 'well they must run on protoculture somewhere because they're on THE LIST' is assuming facts not in evidence, if they aren't explicitly said to run on protoculture then they don't and don't go on the list.

To put it another way, you have THE LIST of vehicles that DON'T run on protoculture, only for someone to refit one (say an electric car) so it runs on protoculture. Would you then argue that because it's explicitly on a list of vehicles that don't run on protoculture then the sensor can't track it, even though it's been explicitly altered to do so? I would hope not. So why then treat a list that's supposed to be derived from a rule as being sacrosanct and without error to the point of insisting that everything on the list must always be valid and remain on the list when the rule it derives from no longer applies? Because that list definitely is not a rule, the rule is regarding what the sensor tracks, the list itself is subject to the actual rule and is factually in error if it lists things that don't fit the rule, and one certainly can't say the information on all the other vehicles being no longer Protoculture-powered to be wrong because it requires insisting on things not factually known to exist in regards to them and to be directly contrary to what is said to be factually known to exist about them.

I mean I can't see why anyone would insist that that list is somehow a rule or that the actual rule isn't what it actually is when it requires contradicting so many other things, other than out of some need to slap a 'canon seal of approval' on the idea so you can give extra combat bonuses to the Invid against all the Earth mecha the Player characters are using even when the bonus shouldn't be there. Because some of the responses have left me with a 'oh no we can't have the PC running around with mecha that don't show up on the Invid sensors!' vibe.

because
1) the statement that 'this works on this' is pretty much the definition of a rule
2) changing the main drive of something may or may not change how all the smaller bits work
Again there is this assumption that A (this device emits protoculture emissions for some reason) equals B (that the device has protoculture as its main powersource) This is not stated in the books!
Thus while B=A, A=/=B. Similarly while !A=!B, !B=/=!A

Unfortunately your arguments fail there, since 'this is a list of things that we think run on this' is NOT a rule, it's a list that's created from the rule. If something no longer suits the rule then it no longer suits the list and therefor comes off the list. 'Well it still fits anyway' is simply not a rational argument since you among other things use circular reasoning that 'well it's on the list so it must belong on the list and anything elsewhere that says it doesn't must be wrong'.

Your second point fails because what we're explicitly told the sensor tracks is protoculture power sources, NOT that it tracks all those smaller bits OR that it tracks any and all protoculture even when not used as a power source. When you change what the sensor tracks then it no longer tracks it, that's basic logic. If you have a dog that can only track pickles and switch to peaches the dog can no longer track things because it can't track peaches. If you have a sensor that only tracks protoculture power sources then it can't track things that don't have protoculture power sources, again basic logic. It becomes illogical to insist that the item still has protoculture and can be tracked anyway because it was put on a list of things that could be tracked when it didn't belong on the list, since the list is derived from the rule regarding the sensor, the list is not the rule and it certainly doesn't change the rule that the sensor now tracks anything including things it's said it doesn't track.

Seriously, if someone gave you a list of 4 door cars that had some 2 door cars on it would you insist that they must be 4 door cars because they were on a list of cars with 4 doors? That the list and not the actual rule that the list is based on takes precedence? Because that's what insisting that non-protoculture using vehicles still can be track by a sensor that solely tracks protoculture power sources because they were on a list boils down to. The list is not a rule, the list is wrong in regards to any vehicles on the list that no longer use protoculture power sources, because the rule is that the list is supposed to only contain things with protoculture power sources and logically you take things off the list when they don't apply instead of insisting that they still remain on the list and that the RULE that the sensor only tracks things with protoculture power sources is wrong and it really tracks everything. Because again that's what your position boils down to when you insist things that don't have protoculture power sources remain on the list or try and insist that they still somehow run on it anyway in spite of it being made clear that they don't.

[eliakon]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

The idea that a subsystem on the UEDF and ASC mecha may use and emit protoculture energy is just an explanation to fit the existing rule.

I think I already noted that a list of vehicles thought to run on protoculture doesn't constitute a rule, the rule is 'this sensor tracks things that run on protoculture due to their protoculture emissions'. If a vehicle says it runs on or was converted to something that's not protoculture then it by definition doesn't go on the list because it no longer qualifies for the list. So claiming that 'well they must run on protoculture somewhere because they're on THE LIST' is assuming facts not in evidence, if they aren't explicitly said to run on protoculture then they don't and don't go on the list.

To put it another way, you have THE LIST of vehicles that DON'T run on protoculture, only for someone to refit one (say an electric car) so it runs on protoculture. Would you then argue that because it's explicitly on a list of vehicles that don't run on protoculture then the sensor can't track it, even though it's been explicitly altered to do so? I would hope not. So why then treat a list that's supposed to be derived from a rule as being sacrosanct and without error to the point of insisting that everything on the list must always be valid and remain on the list when the rule it derives from no longer applies? Because that list definitely is not a rule, the rule is regarding what the sensor tracks, the list itself is subject to the actual rule and is factually in error if it lists things that don't fit the rule, and one certainly can't say the information on all the other vehicles being no longer Protoculture-powered to be wrong because it requires insisting on things not factually known to exist in regards to them and to be directly contrary to what is said to be factually known to exist about them.

I mean I can't see why anyone would insist that that list is somehow a rule or that the actual rule isn't what it actually is when it requires contradicting so many other things, other than out of some need to slap a 'canon seal of approval' on the idea so you can give extra combat bonuses to the Invid against all the Earth mecha the Player characters are using even when the bonus shouldn't be there. Because some of the responses have left me with a 'oh no we can't have the PC running around with mecha that don't show up on the Invid sensors!' vibe.

because
1) the statement that 'this works on this' is pretty much the definition of a rule
2) changing the main drive of something may or may not change how all the smaller bits work
Again there is this assumption that A (this device emits protoculture emissions for some reason) equals B (that the device has protoculture as its main powersource) This is not stated in the books!
Thus while B=A, A=/=B. Similarly while !A=!B, !B=/=!A

Unfortunately your arguments fail there, since 'this is a list of things that we think run on this' is NOT a rule, it's a list that's created from the rule. If something no longer suits the rule then it no longer suits the list and therefor comes off the list. 'Well it still fits anyway' is simply not a rational argument since you among other things use circular reasoning that 'well it's on the list so it must belong on the list and anything elsewhere that says it doesn't must be wrong'.

again your fallacy is showing. This does NOT say "this is a list of things that we think run on this" it says "This is a list of things that use this in some way, shape or form. A=/=B remember?

Your second point fails because what we're explicitly told the sensor tracks is protoculture power sources, NOT that it tracks all those smaller bits OR that it tracks any and all protoculture even when not used as a power source.

Again, a fallacy. As long as there is ANY protoculture power source present its tracked, the list says that some sort of power source is tracked. It does not say that the primary source has to be protoculture, again !B=/=!A

When you change what the sensor tracks then it no longer tracks it, that's basic logic. If you have a dog that can only track pickles and switch to peaches the dog can no longer track things because it can't track peaches. If you have a sensor that only tracks protoculture power sources then it can't track things that don't have protoculture power sources, again basic logic. It becomes illogical to insist that the item still has protoculture and can be tracked anyway because it was put on a list of things that could be tracked when it didn't belong on the list, since the list is derived from the rule regarding the sensor, the list is not the rule and it certainly doesn't change the rule that the sensor now tracks anything including things it's said it doesn't track.Seriously, if someone gave you a list of 4 door cars that had some 2 door cars on it would you insist that they must be 4 door cars because they were on a list of cars with 4 doors? That the list and not the actual rule that the list is based on takes precedence? Because that's what insisting that non-protoculture using vehicles still can be track by a sensor that solely tracks protoculture power sources because they were on a list boils down to. The list is not a rule, the list is wrong in regards to any vehicles on the list that no longer use protoculture power sources, because the rule is that the list is supposed to only contain things with protoculture power sources and logically you take things off the list when they don't apply instead of insisting that they still remain on the list and that the RULE that the sensor only tracks things with protoculture power sources is wrong and it really tracks everything. Because again that's what your position boils down to when you insist things that don't have protoculture power sources remain on the list or try and insist that they still somehow run on it anyway in spite of it being made clear that they don't.

no number of false analogies will change the actual situation
This is not 2 door cars, or pickles
Lets look at the actual situation
Mecha 1 uses a Protoculture Plant for its main power (it is 'B') thus it can be tracked (it is 'A')
Mecha 2 uses a fusion plant for its main power (it is '!B') now if there is ANY protoculture of ANY sort in its systems it is 'A', if there is NO protoculture of ANY sort it is '!A'. The book says that Mecha 2 can be tracked (is 'A') there for, logically, some where in the mecha is some sort of protoculture that can be tracked.

In a car saying that I can detect 'electrical emisions' would let me detect batteries that are in use. Thus I can track electric cars. If we go back and say later that the cars arnt electric but are gasoline, then unless there is ALSO something that says that they don't have batteries or alternaters or any other electrical systems, then gasoline cars can be detected. Changing the gasoline car to another fuel still doesn't change the fact that there is still electronics in the system. Now you could make the car powered by steam, and if you then make it explicit that your steam car has NO electronics, then it is invisible
Electricity would be A. Main Power being electrical is B
Electric car is A and B
Gasoline car is A and !B
Steam car is !B and May either be A or !A, depending on text.

[jaymz]

Seriously, if someone gave you a list of 4 door cars that had some 2 door cars on it would you insist that they must be 4 door cars because they were on a list of cars with 4 doors?

No the insistence would be that it MUST have at least 2 other doors we do not know about even though we have no evidence to support the existence of 2 additional doors in the car. Also since it doesn't say that it DOESN'T have 2 additional doors we must assume it MUST have 2 additional doors even though again there is no evidence to support the actual existence of these 2 supposed additional doors....


/sarcasm


Do we see how silly the argument of "it MUST have PC even though it doesn't SAY it has PC" is yet?

I understand Jefffar's point as he is trying to explain how to pigeonhole the earlier generation mecha to fit the list. It is understandable (hell personally I rewrote everything and it ALL runs on PC) to do so, but the simple answer is this:

They don't use PC. Since the Earth forces have no clue about the Invid sensor they had no reason NOT to use PC on newer mecha so they did. once they found out it's too late and too time consuming to revert back. Especially with a technology being given to them to alleviate the Invid Sensor issue. Reversion will be a goal NOW (as of the end of TSC) unless they defeat the Haydonite sabotage and find more PC to use (IE track down the SDF-3) but their is no direct need to yet as the Invid are no longer a threat anyway by all accounts.

I am not sure why it is such a big issue anyway. The MAJORITY of mecha used in the New Gen era will be New Gen era mecha as it is the most plentiful to be found by and large. Also seeing as the bulk of the people on earth have ZERO clue about this sensor (as evidenced by Scott's and his merry Band's surprise over it) those operating non PC mecha wouldn't even know they HAD an advantage anyway and therefore would not act on that advantage. Furthermore, the Invid STILL shoot at things that shoot at them so it's like you won;t get attack when you shoot at them and it says right there in the systems write up that they can and o recognize some weapons of war that the human use. Especially when encountering them on a regular basis. The troops themselves may not be bright but the local controlling brain may be a little more discerning.

Trying to make it work as per that one line is really a waste of time and thoroughly unneeded anyway be it mechanically speaking or story wise.

[jaymz]

Uh for the record it does not state it tracks PC "use in some way, shape or form" though. It says it tracks PC power sources/PC emissions. In order to emit PC there has to be an indication there is PC TO emit. The lack of anything indicating that PC is present to be emitted negates what it can track.

These mecha not using PC isn't exactly some BANE of advantage to the players as they shouldn't even know this is a possibility and if they DO act on it they need to smacked for metagaming.

[Nightmask]

I think I already noted that a list of vehicles thought to run on protoculture doesn't constitute a rule, the rule is 'this sensor tracks things that run on protoculture due to their protoculture emissions'. If a vehicle says it runs on or was converted to something that's not protoculture then it by definition doesn't go on the list because it no longer qualifies for the list. So claiming that 'well they must run on protoculture somewhere because they're on THE LIST' is assuming facts not in evidence, if they aren't explicitly said to run on protoculture then they don't and don't go on the list.

To put it another way, you have THE LIST of vehicles that DON'T run on protoculture, only for someone to refit one (say an electric car) so it runs on protoculture. Would you then argue that because it's explicitly on a list of vehicles that don't run on protoculture then the sensor can't track it, even though it's been explicitly altered to do so? I would hope not. So why then treat a list that's supposed to be derived from a rule as being sacrosanct and without error to the point of insisting that everything on the list must always be valid and remain on the list when the rule it derives from no longer applies? Because that list definitely is not a rule, the rule is regarding what the sensor tracks, the list itself is subject to the actual rule and is factually in error if it lists things that don't fit the rule, and one certainly can't say the information on all the other vehicles being no longer Protoculture-powered to be wrong because it requires insisting on things not factually known to exist in regards to them and to be directly contrary to what is said to be factually known to exist about them.

I mean I can't see why anyone would insist that that list is somehow a rule or that the actual rule isn't what it actually is when it requires contradicting so many other things, other than out of some need to slap a 'canon seal of approval' on the idea so you can give extra combat bonuses to the Invid against all the Earth mecha the Player characters are using even when the bonus shouldn't be there. Because some of the responses have left me with a 'oh no we can't have the PC running around with mecha that don't show up on the Invid sensors!' vibe.

because
1) the statement that 'this works on this' is pretty much the definition of a rule
2) changing the main drive of something may or may not change how all the smaller bits work
Again there is this assumption that A (this device emits protoculture emissions for some reason) equals B (that the device has protoculture as its main powersource) This is not stated in the books!
Thus while B=A, A=/=B. Similarly while !A=!B, !B=/=!A

Unfortunately your arguments fail there, since 'this is a list of things that we think run on this' is NOT a rule, it's a list that's created from the rule. If something no longer suits the rule then it no longer suits the list and therefor comes off the list. 'Well it still fits anyway' is simply not a rational argument since you among other things use circular reasoning that 'well it's on the list so it must belong on the list and anything elsewhere that says it doesn't must be wrong'.

again your fallacy is showing. This does NOT say "this is a list of things that we think run on this" it says "This is a list of things that use this in some way, shape or form. A=/=B remember?

Nothing fallacious about my reasoning, the sensor doesn't say 'tracks anything that uses protoculture in any fashion' but 'tracks protoculture energy sources', with the list supposed to be a list of things that use protoculture as a power source. Since we know the list contains things said to not make use of protoculture the list is factually in error, NOT the various entries on various vehicles that say that they don't use protoculture. It is illogical to insist that all those other entries are wrong instead of a single list.

Your second point fails because what we're explicitly told the sensor tracks is protoculture power sources, NOT that it tracks all those smaller bits OR that it tracks any and all protoculture even when not used as a power source.

Again, a fallacy. As long as there is ANY protoculture power source present its tracked, the list says that some sort of power source is tracked. It does not say that the primary source has to be protoculture, again !B=/=!A

Again, not a fallacy. The list is clearly intended to list things that run on protoculture, as examples of what the sensor applies to, if something does not run on protoculture than it cannot be tracked. Since there are zero entries on any of those vehicles regarding other protoculture power systems (of which protoculture chips even if they were stated to be installed are NOT power sources, if they were we'd have an entry saying so and how often they required replacement since they clearly couldn't run forever) then they don't exist, if they don't exist then those vehicles can't be tracked by that sensor. It would be a fallacious argument to insist that they must still have some somewhere because they're on the list, with the fallacy being that the list must be right and can't instead be wrong given it ascribes a level of infallibility to the list maker that's not believable, especially when it requires inventions of things not said to exist to make it remain on the list. The more you insist on things not shown to exist to support your point the more obvious you make it that the point is wrong.

When you change what the sensor tracks then it no longer tracks it, that's basic logic. If you have a dog that can only track pickles and switch to peaches the dog can no longer track things because it can't track peaches. If you have a sensor that only tracks protoculture power sources then it can't track things that don't have protoculture power sources, again basic logic. It becomes illogical to insist that the item still has protoculture and can be tracked anyway because it was put on a list of things that could be tracked when it didn't belong on the list, since the list is derived from the rule regarding the sensor, the list is not the rule and it certainly doesn't change the rule that the sensor now tracks anything including things it's said it doesn't track.Seriously, if someone gave you a list of 4 door cars that had some 2 door cars on it would you insist that they must be 4 door cars because they were on a list of cars with 4 doors? That the list and not the actual rule that the list is based on takes precedence? Because that's what insisting that non-protoculture using vehicles still can be track by a sensor that solely tracks protoculture power sources because they were on a list boils down to. The list is not a rule, the list is wrong in regards to any vehicles on the list that no longer use protoculture power sources, because the rule is that the list is supposed to only contain things with protoculture power sources and logically you take things off the list when they don't apply instead of insisting that they still remain on the list and that the RULE that the sensor only tracks things with protoculture power sources is wrong and it really tracks everything. Because again that's what your position boils down to when you insist things that don't have protoculture power sources remain on the list or try and insist that they still somehow run on it anyway in spite of it being made clear that they don't.

no number of false analogies will change the actual situation
This is not 2 door cars, or pickles
Lets look at the actual situation
Mecha 1 uses a Protoculture Plant for its main power (it is 'B') thus it can be tracked (it is 'A')
Mecha 2 uses a fusion plant for its main power (it is '!B') now if there is ANY protoculture of ANY sort in its systems it is 'A', if there is NO protoculture of ANY sort it is '!A'. The book says that Mecha 2 can be tracked (is 'A') there for, logically, some where in the mecha is some sort of protoculture that can be tracked.

In a car saying that I can detect 'electrical emisions' would let me detect batteries that are in use. Thus I can track electric cars. If we go back and say later that the cars arnt electric but are gasoline, then unless there is ALSO something that says that they don't have batteries or alternaters or any other electrical systems, then gasoline cars can be detected. Changing the gasoline car to another fuel still doesn't change the fact that there is still electronics in the system. Now you could make the car powered by steam, and if you then make it explicit that your steam car has NO electronics, then it is invisible
Electricity would be A. Main Power being electrical is B
Electric car is A and B
Gasoline car is A and !B
Steam car is !B and May either be A or !A, depending on text.

I gave no false analogies, they were dead on point.

As far as your examples go, the list cannot be used as proof that Mecha2 has some kind of protoculture power system to it that's just unlisted. The list itself is in question (no matter how much you want to insist that the list is infallibly perfect), one that's meant to be compiled based on vehicles that have protoculture power systems. If said list had not been given and instead the readers expected to compile the list themselves you certainly wouldn't be including those Fusion-powered vehicles because nowhere does it say they use protoculture in any fashion.

Remember one is supposed to reason FORWARD, rather than trying to invent things going BACKWARDS to try and make something work that doesn't. You look at the criteria for the sensor then determine what things it applies to, if something doesn't meet those criteria then they don't go on a list of things it applies to. You clearly know that those fusion-powered mecha have nothing in their entries that they make any use of protoculture, if they did you'd quickly point to the entry to prove that they belong on the list, but they don't. They don't have such an entry because they don't have any protoculture that they use, so clearly they don't go on a list of things that the protoculture sensor can track. Basic logic.

[Nightmask]

Uh for the record it does not state it tracks PC "use in some way, shape or form" though. It says it tracks PC power sources/PC emissions. In order to emit PC there has to be an indication there is PC TO emit. The lack of anything indicating that PC is present to be emitted negates what it can track.

These mecha not using PC isn't exactly some BANE of advantage to the players as they shouldn't even know this is a possibility and if they DO act on it they need to smacked for metagaming.

You're quite right that it's not something you'd expect to matter much anyway, since the mecha that aren't trackable aren't that common and it's not like they can't still shoot at the non-protoculture mecha they just lose some bonuses to combat. It's not like you're giving the characters some kind of super-advantage just evening things out a bit since THEY don't get to enjoy extra bonuses.

However it's not like it should be impossible for the PC in-character to figure out the existence of the sensor, I mean we DID see it happen fairly early in the Invid Invasion section of Robotech and were wondering how the Invid kept finding them as easily as they did before that. So characters should be able to figure out that those protoculture systems are being tracked, and if they have the non-protoculture systems they probably wouldn't have evidence come there way to realize the sensor exist.

[glitterboy2098]

given that SLMH is going to be much rarer and harder to get in the new gen period, i think giving Macross and southern cross period mecha an advantage against the invid is a fair balance. sure they'd be better at fighting invid.. but you'd have to avoid uneeded combat because you have only a fraction of the operational time per fill up protoculture mecha have.. and finding more requires quite a bit more effort and time.

[jaymz]

given that SLMH is going to be much rarer and harder to get in the new gen period, i think giving Macross and southern cross period mecha an advantage against the invid is a fair balance. sure they'd be better at fighting invid.. but you'd have to avoid uneeded combat because you have only a fraction of the operational time per fill up protoculture mecha have.. and finding more requires quite a bit more effort and time.

Not to mention that the characters wouldn't even know it IS an advantage they have nor any reason to find out it is.

[Seto Kaiba]

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

As that explicit correction has yet to appear, the rule still stands.

An explicit correction has already been issued via the Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books... all the pre-New Generation human mecha do not use protoculture. Full stop. Until such time as one of you provides explicit proof from the Macross Saga or Masters Saga source books that the VF-1, old destroids, and/or Army of the Southern Cross military hardware use protoculture in any way, shape, or form, there is absolutely zero factual basis for asserting that the Invid's supposed ability to detect those mecha is anything other than the most obvious of errors.

Nobody has yet been able to provide a single piece of evidence to that effect.

Therefore, in the complete and profound absence of any protoculture-based systems for the VF-1, the "old Destroids", and Army of the Southern Cross equipment, there is no cogent argument for suggesting that those mecha are detectable to the Invid.

Put simply and bluntly, your explicit correction is already there... those mecha are powered by fusion, not by a protoculture power system.

EDIT: In fact, the New Generation book clearly indicates that if you're not powered by protoculture, you're invisible to the Invid sensors. Fancy that.

At no point do the rules say, suggest, hint, or otherwise indicate that any Invid ability to detect protoculture works on any application of protoculture apart from power generation. Please refer to the following examples from the core book (Manga Ed., 2nd Printing) and New Generation source book (1st Printing):

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 11, Right Column, 2nd Paragraph
That is why a human can turn off his Protoculture powered mecha and abandon it in plain view without fear of it being destroyed or confiscated. If the Invid does not sense an active Protoculture engine or energy source, it ignores the item.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 11, Right Column, 2nd Paragraph
If there is no sign of life, danger, or Protoculture, then it is as unimportant as the rock laying next to it. This is also why the Invid ignore crashed spaceships, and ancient abandoned military bases that contain human mecha, vehicles, ammunition, and other supplies.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 12, Right Column, 3rd Paragraph
After all, the Invid only seem to target and destroy those who openly oppose them or use Protoculture (like the weapons, Cyclones, and Veritechs of the Expeditionary Forces).

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 14, Right Column, 2nd Paragraph
However, shut off the Protoculture engine or feed, and the device becomes a meaningless hunk of machinery, unless the Invid was in pursuit and saw the pilot bail out from the Protoculture-powered vehicle.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 15, Left Column, 4th Paragraph
Even small amounts of Protoculture, such as that used in the Gallant handgun, are detected. However, the moment the Protoculture engine, furnace, or power supply is turned off, the signal disappears and can NOT be sensed or traced.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 15, Right Column, 1st Paragraph
Since the Invid do not understand human machinery (it all looks the same to them), a human can stop his mecha in the middle of a field and turn it off (stopping the Protoculture energy signal), and run and hide.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 16, Left Column, 1st Paragraph
However, shut off the Protoculture engine or power supply and the Protoculture visual instantly disappears. [...] Furthermore, Invid chase down and capture - or more likely destroy - anyone who was seen using a protoculture powered device.

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 43, Right Column, 3rd Paragraph
+4 to strike when protoculture targeting mecha sensors are used (effective only against targets using Protoculture and not cloaked by Shadow technology).

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game - Page 185, Right Column, Payload Entry
40 blasts per standard energy clip, but a Protoculture Energy Clip provides 830 single M.D. pistol shots. Note: When this weapon uses a Protoculture Energy Clip, it can be sensed, seen, and tracked by the Invid the second it is turned "on".

Robotech: the New Generation Sourcebook - Page 30, Left Column, 2nd Paragraph
The character gains the Invid's ability to see and sense active Protoculture. [...] This ability also enables the Protoculture Bloodhound to see when Protoculture energy is powering weapons [...]

Robotech: the New Generation Sourcebook - Page 30, Left Column, 3rd Paragraph
The character can sense the presence of active Protoculture anywhere within 400 feet [...] This ability works as a kind of "sixth sense" with which the mutant can feel or sense when Protoculture powered generators, machines, and mecha are near. [...] If only sensing the Protoculture, and not seeing it directly, the character can only identify the general type of power source (human, Robotech Master/Zentraedi, or Invid).

and the smoking gun...

Robotech: the New Generation Sourcebook - Page 52, Left Column, 2nd Paragraph
Simple by design, the Banshee has a low-maintenance rotary engine and flex-fuel system that allows it to use nearly any combustible fuel - not Protoculture cells - making it invisible to Invid Protoculture sensors..

Is an ironclad statement that vehicles that don't use protoculture power sources are invisible to Invid sensors clear-cut enough for you?

[Nightmask]

given that SLMH is going to be much rarer and harder to get in the new gen period, i think giving Macross and southern cross period mecha an advantage against the invid is a fair balance. sure they'd be better at fighting invid.. but you'd have to avoid uneeded combat because you have only a fraction of the operational time per fill up protoculture mecha have.. and finding more requires quite a bit more effort and time.

Not to mention that the characters wouldn't even know it IS an advantage they have nor any reason to find out it is.

Well no, they might figure it out if/when they have to use the protoculture-powered mecha due to not being able to find enough fuel for their mecha or due to their mecha being destroyed. They could notice differences in combat and how it seemed that the enemy had an easier time hitting them compared to their old mecha, or that (as happened in the anime) that they were now being far more easily tracked down and attacked in the newer protoculture-powered mecha. Something like that would eventually be noticed and questioned, after all the characters generally have normal to above-average IQ and some likely have OCC that explicitly deal with things like intelligence gathering.

[jaymz]

given that SLMH is going to be much rarer and harder to get in the new gen period, i think giving Macross and southern cross period mecha an advantage against the invid is a fair balance. sure they'd be better at fighting invid.. but you'd have to avoid uneeded combat because you have only a fraction of the operational time per fill up protoculture mecha have.. and finding more requires quite a bit more effort and time.

Not to mention that the characters wouldn't even know it IS an advantage they have nor any reason to find out it is.

Well no, they might figure it out if/when they have to use the protoculture-powered mecha due to not being able to find enough fuel for their mecha or due to their mecha being destroyed. They could notice differences in combat and how it seemed that the enemy had an easier time hitting them compared to their old mecha, or that (as happened in the anime) that they were now being far more easily tracked down and attacked in the newer protoculture-powered mecha. Something like that would eventually be noticed and questioned, after all the characters generally have normal to above-average IQ and some likely have OCC that explicitly deal with things like intelligence gathering.

I certainly wouldn't volunteer that info on it though and unless they specifically question it.....well unfortunately it is there in black and white and there is no way to keep them from automatically going "AHA!" even if their character might not. I would make them make IQ checks or perception checks (or make secret ones on their behalf) the next time the go out to see if they take notice of the WHY behind the easier targeting and tracking. I just hate it when people metagame though.

[Nightmask]

given that SLMH is going to be much rarer and harder to get in the new gen period, i think giving Macross and southern cross period mecha an advantage against the invid is a fair balance. sure they'd be better at fighting invid.. but you'd have to avoid uneeded combat because you have only a fraction of the operational time per fill up protoculture mecha have.. and finding more requires quite a bit more effort and time.

Not to mention that the characters wouldn't even know it IS an advantage they have nor any reason to find out it is.

Well no, they might figure it out if/when they have to use the protoculture-powered mecha due to not being able to find enough fuel for their mecha or due to their mecha being destroyed. They could notice differences in combat and how it seemed that the enemy had an easier time hitting them compared to their old mecha, or that (as happened in the anime) that they were now being far more easily tracked down and attacked in the newer protoculture-powered mecha. Something like that would eventually be noticed and questioned, after all the characters generally have normal to above-average IQ and some likely have OCC that explicitly deal with things like intelligence gathering.

I certainly wouldn't volunteer that info on it though and unless they specifically question it.....well unfortunately it is there in black and white and there is no way to keep them from automatically going "AHA!" even if their character might not. I would make them make IQ checks or perception checks (or make secret ones on their behalf) the next time the go out to see if they take notice of the WHY behind the easier targeting and tracking. I just hate it when people metagame though.

Well you can't avoid it completely, and for some it might be necessary to insist that 'hey my character should be able to figure that out' when they have GM that want to prevent them from catching on and keep them from finding ways to get around the sensor problem.

[ShadowLogan]

i would also point out that 'recharge' can also apply in non-electrical situations. refilling a propane tank, compressed air bottle, and similar is often called recharging. the EU-13 might not have a battery, instead a tank of PC it uses in a powerplant of some kind to generate power for the gun. given that protoculture is described as a physical material in the show, this would make some sense.

Then why not use the clear refueling? Since "recharge" will generally not be thought of in those terms.

A mecha using protoculture in any form is a pretty important piece of information which the single line in TSC does not prove they do since as it has already

A mecha using PC as FUEL is a pretty important piece of information, but PC in other applications may be omitted since those mecha are on the Protoculture Sensor hit list already, and likely are not going to require replacement of those components outside damage and long term use that would be covered by regular maintenance. None of the 3 saga SBs mention that SLMH mecha are actually invisible to the sensors explicitly, it is only by implicit means.

A rules correction (and the rule is that the Invid Protoculture Targeting System provides a bonus against UEDF and ASC mecha) requires an explicit correction, not an implicit one.

I agree with this. They took the time to mention ASC mecha in the NG period in the Masters SB, but no one mentions the mecha actually being invisible to the IPTS. They didn't mention RDF mecha in the NG period until the NG SB, and again there is no explicit mention of the fact.

So either SLMH mecha are vulnerable to PC detection for some reason (false positive, SLMH contains PC, or PC components) OR all those mecha have to switch to PC due to a lack of fuel as implied in the Ares and Widowmaker IMU entries. I was looking over the random salvage table for UEDF:ASC facilities in the NG SB, SLMH fuel is not one of the items to be salvaged individually, the best you might do is a fueled mecha, where the UEEF crash site in the NG SB does allow PC fuel to be recovered separately.

Since the Earth forces have no clue about the Invid sensor they had no reason NOT to use PC on newer mecha so they did. once they found out it's too late and too time consuming to revert back.

No, but they have encountered similar technology before. Dana calls out that the Bioroids (Invid Fighter) have an "armored energy sensor", and IINM the Zentraedi mention detecting reflex activity a few times (so post FoA, the uEDF would be familiar with the concept of energy sensors) and as Reflex is equated to PC use...

The BIF sensor is mentioned in the Infopedia writeup. I don't have ep/quotes handy to cite, but they are there.

In order to emit PC there has to be an indication there is PC TO emit. The lack of anything indicating that PC is present to be emitted negates what it can track.

The indication is in the IPTS description though.

PC acting as a capacitor (a common electronics component) would be discharging energy, qualifying as PC energy use. Even the PC "chips" in the series, if they are transistors (what computer chips are made of) would discharge energy as part of their operation, so again would qualify as PC energy use.

Is an ironclad statement that vehicles that don't use protoculture power sources are invisible to Invid sensors clear-cut enough for you?

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) but an ASC vehicle so was not on the list. It doesn't establish that the ASC/RDF mecha aren't using PC in some form other than fuel.

[Seto Kaiba]

Then why not use the clear refueling? Since "recharge" will generally not be thought of in those terms.

Possibly because a protoculture cell doesn't recharge like a battery... if the process of reusing a protoculture cell involves replenishing the protoculture inside of it (as the RPG seems to hint at) rather than simply plugging it into something and waiting for the voltage level to rise, it may be "recharging" in the sense of a propane cylinder or other gas tank.

A mecha using PC as FUEL is a pretty important piece of information, but PC in other applications may be omitted since those mecha are on the Protoculture Sensor hit list already, [...]

This argument still doesn't hold water, because the text of that list indicates the reason those vehicles are supposedly detectable is that they're powered by protoculture. We have a statement from the New Gen's source book that not being powered by protoculture makes you invisible to the Invid, and the RPG's stats for those vehicles clearly indicate they are not using protoculture for power.

One would think that rather neatly caps it as invalid.

I agree with this. They took the time to mention ASC mecha in the NG period in the Masters SB, but no one mentions the mecha actually being invisible to the IPTS. They didn't mention RDF mecha in the NG period until the NG SB, and again there is no explicit mention of the fact.

Shockingly enough, because those mecha are generally not relevant to the Invid Invasion period. It's only in books where they start diverging from what's in the series and talking about material from one saga being in events from another that we start getting statements to the effect of "if it's not protoculture-powered, the Invid can't see it".

So either SLMH mecha are vulnerable to PC detection for some reason (false positive, SLMH contains PC, or PC components) OR all those mecha have to switch to PC due to a lack of fuel as implied in the Ares and Widowmaker IMU entries.

Or those mecha are invisible, as the text of the new generation source book indicates they should be, and it's up to the GM to figure out how to cope with it.

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

The VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are not protoculture-powered, therefore they are invisible to the Invid.

[guardiandashi]

Then why not use the clear refueling? Since "recharge" will generally not be thought of in those terms.

Possibly because a protoculture cell doesn't recharge like a battery... if the process of reusing a protoculture cell involves replenishing the protoculture inside of it (as the RPG seems to hint at) rather than simply plugging it into something and waiting for the voltage level to rise, it may be "recharging" in the sense of a propane cylinder or other gas tank.

A mecha using PC as FUEL is a pretty important piece of information, but PC in other applications may be omitted since those mecha are on the Protoculture Sensor hit list already, [...]

This argument still doesn't hold water, because the text of that list indicates the reason those vehicles are supposedly detectable is that they're powered by protoculture. We have a statement from the New Gen's source book that not being powered by protoculture makes you invisible to the Invid, and the RPG's stats for those vehicles clearly indicate they are not using protoculture for power.

One would think that rather neatly caps it as invalid.

I agree with this. They took the time to mention ASC mecha in the NG period in the Masters SB, but no one mentions the mecha actually being invisible to the IPTS. They didn't mention RDF mecha in the NG period until the NG SB, and again there is no explicit mention of the fact.

Shockingly enough, because those mecha are generally not relevant to the Invid Invasion period. It's only in books where they start diverging from what's in the series and talking about material from one saga being in events from another that we start getting statements to the effect of "if it's not protoculture-powered, the Invid can't see it".

So either SLMH mecha are vulnerable to PC detection for some reason (false positive, SLMH contains PC, or PC components) OR all those mecha have to switch to PC due to a lack of fuel as implied in the Ares and Widowmaker IMU entries.

Or those mecha are invisible, as the text of the new generation source book indicates they should be, and it's up to the GM to figure out how to cope with it.

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

The VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are not protoculture-powered, therefore they are invisible to the Invid.

nitpick, not running on protoculture fuel does not make you invisible to the invid they can see after all, its just that if you run on protoculture your are screaming hey stupid kick me yes I said kick me you (insert profanity) .....

so in modern terms I would say that the protoculture signature is like running an active radar in an environment where people are tossing HARM type munitions around or the stereotypical waving a red cape or similar at a bull etc.

you are being noisy and annoying and they do respond by trying to swat you.

the thing is an active machine that is not giving off protoculture emissions may still get you swatted, its not like they are complete idiots (ok well the low level ones are ... but) if you don't trigger their active, automatic kill responses (like using protoculture does) you can do things like run around a corner and lean against the wall and they might just walk right on by because they "forgot" that you were the threat that was shooting at them 10 seconds before

[Seto Kaiba]

nitpick, not running on protoculture fuel does not make you invisible to the invid they can see after all, its just that if you run on protoculture your are screaming hey stupid kick me yes I said kick me you (insert profanity) .....

Invisible to their protoculture sensors, y'know... which is about the only thing that really marks you out as a threat to them, short of actively trying to kill them yourself. The way the book phrases it, if you're not using protoculture or pursuing the obnoxious little space lobsters around with a sledgehammer and a tub of melted butter, the majority of their grunts aren't going to care or respond even if they DO see you. Their ability to sense protoculture power generation is their primary means of threat detection and assessment, and the few other means they possess are all kind of rubbish. If you're not using protoculture, not only will you likely not be classified as a threat if they see you, you're likely to escape detection altogether unless you get up in their faces.

[eliakon]

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.
This is like saying that a line about 'semi trucks run on disel, and are thus invisible' proves that all earth vechicles are invisible

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule" Now, if you have a ASC Mecha (or any other object on the list) that has an explicit statement that it is invisible I would be fascinated to see it. Until your back to "nuh uh, the list is wrong 'cause I say so, and since I get to pick all the definitions of the words I'll just prove it by changing what was written to match what I want it to say."

[Nightmask]

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.
This is like saying that a line about 'semi trucks run on disel, and are thus invisible' proves that all earth vechicles are invisible

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule" Now, if you have a ASC Mecha (or any other object on the list) that has an explicit statement that it is invisible I would be fascinated to see it. Until your back to "nuh uh, the list is wrong 'cause I say so, and since I get to pick all the definitions of the words I'll just prove it by changing what was written to match what I want it to say."

Uh no, you prove a list wrong by showing that things that are on the list are wrongly on the list, which has been done repeatedly. Because 'it's on the list so the list must be right' is simply wrong, they don't have to go back and put on everything that 'this doesn't run on protoculture so isn't tracked by the sensor' because basic logic should make it clear that the criteria to be on the list 'has a protoculture power source' is how you create the list, there needs to be no entry under those non-protoculture power sourced items to tell you that 'no these things aren't tracked by the sensor' because that should be beyond obvious, nor should you need someone from Palladium to tell you 'hey those vehicles no longer run on protoculture so you need to take them off that list' because you ought to be able to manage that yourself instead of expecting them to do everything for you.

[eliakon]

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.
This is like saying that a line about 'semi trucks run on disel, and are thus invisible' proves that all earth vechicles are invisible

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule" Now, if you have a ASC Mecha (or any other object on the list) that has an explicit statement that it is invisible I would be fascinated to see it. Until your back to "nuh uh, the list is wrong 'cause I say so, and since I get to pick all the definitions of the words I'll just prove it by changing what was written to match what I want it to say."

Uh no, you prove a list wrong by showing that things that are on the list are wrongly on the list, which has been done repeatedly. Because 'it's on the list so the list must be right' is simply wrong, they don't have to go back and put on everything that 'this doesn't run on protoculture so isn't tracked by the sensor' because basic logic should make it clear that the criteria to be on the list 'has a protoculture power source' is how you create the list, there needs to be no entry under those non-protoculture power sourced items to tell you that 'no these things aren't tracked by the sensor' because that should be beyond obvious, nor should you need someone from Palladium to tell you 'hey those vehicles no longer run on protoculture so you need to take them off that list' because you ought to be able to manage that yourself instead of expecting them to do everything for you.

but you HAVENT shown that the list is wrong.
You have shown that:
Things that were not on the list, are not on the list
That if you change the definitions of the words on the list, that the list is wrong
That if you ignore any other usages of the words, and pick one specific narrow word the list is wrong
As yet I have not seen anything that says "This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."
for the logic challenged though, once again Protoculture Powered =/= Has protoculture in some way, there for !protoculture powered =/= !has protoculture in some way. The banshee is the opposite, with IS valid !protoculture in anyway = ! Protocultured powered. but you need to prove the forward of the statement, not that its reverse is true.
Prove that No protoculture MAIN POWER PLANT = no protoculture OF ANY SORT.

[Nightmask]

Was the Banshee Hovercycle on the list for the IPTS? No it isn't, because it is not an ASC mecha (at least by the way the RPG uses the term) [...]

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.
This is like saying that a line about 'semi trucks run on disel, and are thus invisible' proves that all earth vechicles are invisible

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule" Now, if you have a ASC Mecha (or any other object on the list) that has an explicit statement that it is invisible I would be fascinated to see it. Until your back to "nuh uh, the list is wrong 'cause I say so, and since I get to pick all the definitions of the words I'll just prove it by changing what was written to match what I want it to say."

Uh no, you prove a list wrong by showing that things that are on the list are wrongly on the list, which has been done repeatedly. Because 'it's on the list so the list must be right' is simply wrong, they don't have to go back and put on everything that 'this doesn't run on protoculture so isn't tracked by the sensor' because basic logic should make it clear that the criteria to be on the list 'has a protoculture power source' is how you create the list, there needs to be no entry under those non-protoculture power sourced items to tell you that 'no these things aren't tracked by the sensor' because that should be beyond obvious, nor should you need someone from Palladium to tell you 'hey those vehicles no longer run on protoculture so you need to take them off that list' because you ought to be able to manage that yourself instead of expecting them to do everything for you.

but you HAVENT shown that the list is wrong.
You have shown that:
Things that were not on the list, are not on the list
That if you change the definitions of the words on the list, that the list is wrong
That if you ignore any other usages of the words, and pick one specific narrow word the list is wrong
As yet I have not seen anything that says "This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."
for the logic challenged though, once again Protoculture Powered =/= Has protoculture in some way, there for !protoculture powered =/= !has protoculture in some way. The banshee is the opposite, with IS valid !protoculture in anyway = ! Protocultured powered. but you need to prove the forward of the statement, not that its reverse is true.
Prove that No protoculture MAIN POWER PLANT = no protoculture OF ANY SORT.

Can't prove negatives, plus as has been pointed out repeatedly the sensor doesn't track 'Protoculture of any sort' it tracks 'protoculture power sources'. So until you can show that the things wrongly on the list EXPLICITLY have protoculture power sources in spite of the ONLY power source they have listed NOT being protoculture then no matter how much YOU try and change definitions and twist words then they do NOT go on the list. There is no getting around that. There is no 'prove there isn't any protoculture in them anywhere or they go on the list', there is 'prove that they have a protoculture power source or they don't belong on the list'.

Since again, the sensor explicitly tracks protoculture POWER Sources, no matter how much you try and change the CANON material regarding the sensor so that an invalid list is valid (which it STILL wouldn't be since you STILL can't point to explicit notation that those non-Protoculture powered mecha use protoculture in some other form) the list is in fact invalid. You yank out the protoculture engine from a vehicle then that vehicle no longer goes on the list, period, end of discussion. It doesn't remain on the list because it once qualified because now it doesn't. If something is revealed to never have had protoculture involved at all (let alone to meet the protoculture power source requirement of the sensor) then again it doesn't go on the list and needs to be removed.

You yank the gasoline engine out of a car and replace it with a propane-powered engine then the car no longer goes on a list of gasoline engine cars, someone tells you a steam locomotive runs on gasoline when it actually runs on coal then you take it off the list of gasoline-powered devices you don't insist it has gasoline involved in its construction somewhere.

You don't need Palladium to tell you that something you should have the ability to determine doesn't go on the list needs to be removed, you should be able to do that yourself instead of inventing non-existent things so that the items remain on a list that they don't belong on because you are treating the list as being immutable and infallible when no list is. If you want to change the canon material so that everything has protoculture in it in spite of it not being so in the books and that the protoculture tracking sensor tracks all protoculture instead of just the protoculture power sources it says it tracks thereby tracking your house-rule of 'everything has protoculture whether it says so or not' you're free to do so, but in a discussion regarding the actual canon material the sensor doesn't track anything and everything and there is no phantom protoculture built into everything to ensure it can be tracked by the Invid.

[eliakon]

Uh no, you prove a list wrong by showing that things that are on the list are wrongly on the list, which has been done repeatedly. Because 'it's on the list so the list must be right' is simply wrong, they don't have to go back and put on everything that 'this doesn't run on protoculture so isn't tracked by the sensor' because basic logic should make it clear that the criteria to be on the list 'has a protoculture power source' is how you create the list, there needs to be no entry under those non-protoculture power sourced items to tell you that 'no these things aren't tracked by the sensor' because that should be beyond obvious, nor should you need someone from Palladium to tell you 'hey those vehicles no longer run on protoculture so you need to take them off that list' because you ought to be able to manage that yourself instead of expecting them to do everything for you.

but you HAVENT shown that the list is wrong.
You have shown that:
Things that were not on the list, are not on the list
That if you change the definitions of the words on the list, that the list is wrong
That if you ignore any other usages of the words, and pick one specific narrow word the list is wrong
As yet I have not seen anything that says "This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."
for the logic challenged though, once again Protoculture Powered =/= Has protoculture in some way, there for !protoculture powered =/= !has protoculture in some way. The banshee is the opposite, with IS valid !protoculture in anyway = ! Protocultured powered. but you need to prove the forward of the statement, not that its reverse is true.
Prove that No protoculture MAIN POWER PLANT = no protoculture OF ANY SORT.

Can't prove negatives

That's a real problem for the "we have proved this doesn't exist" crowd then isn't it?

as has been pointed out repeatedly the sensor doesn't track 'Protoculture of any sort' it tracks 'protoculture power sources'. So until you can show that the things wrongly on the list EXPLICITLY have protoculture power sources in spite of the ONLY power source they have listed NOT being protoculture then no matter how much YOU try and change definitions and twist words then they do NOT go on the list. There is no getting around that. There is no 'prove there isn't any protoculture in them anywhere or they go on the list', there is 'prove that they have a protoculture power source or they don't belong on the list'.

and again you ignore that there are possible 'power sources' besides 'my main power source is this'
A lightbulb on a nuclear submarine is not nuclear powered, its electric powered, that light bulb on a disel sub is....still electric powered.

Since again, the sensor explicitly tracks protoculture POWER Sources.

Yep, power sources, all power sources, any and all power sources, not just primary protoculure reactors.

no matter how much you try and change the CANON material regarding the sensor so that an invalid list is valid (which it STILL wouldn't be since you STILL can't point to explicit notation that those non-Protoculture powered mecha use protoculture in some other form)

you mean no notation other than the list itself, and the many times the list is referred to in the various books as 'this is the list of things that have protoculture'?

the list is in fact invalid. You yank out the protoculture engine from a vehicle then that vehicle no longer goes on the list, period, end of discussion. It doesn't remain on the list because it once qualified because now it doesn't. If something is revealed to never have had protoculture involved at all (let alone to meet the protoculture power source requirement of the sensor) then again it doesn't go on the list and needs to be removed.

no, you yank out the protoculture engine, and ANY OTHER SYSTEMS THAT USE PROTOCULTURE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM and it comes off the list. As Shadow Logan has pointed out, if you have a theoretical 'protoculture chip' or 'protoculture capacitor' then you need to remove them.

You yank the gasoline engine out of a car and replace it with a propane-powered engine then the car no longer goes on a list of gasoline engine cars, someone tells you a steam locomotive runs on gasoline when it actually runs on coal then you take it off the list of gasoline-powered devices you don't insist it has gasoline involved in its construction somewhere.

but the gasoline car and propane car can STILL be on a list of 'vehicles that have electrical systesms'
You need to compare apples to apples

You don't need Palladium to tell you that something you should have the ability to determine doesn't go on the list needs to be removed, you should be able to do that yourself instead of inventing non-existent things so that the items remain on a list that they don't belong on because you are treating the list as being immutable and infallible when no list is. If you want to change the canon material so that everything has protoculture in it in spite of it not being so in the books and that the protoculture tracking sensor tracks all protoculture instead of just the protoculture power sources it says it tracks thereby tracking your house-rule of 'everything has protoculture whether it says so or not' you're free to do so, but in a discussion regarding the actual canon material the sensor doesn't track anything and everything and there is no phantom protoculture built into everything to ensure it can be tracked by the Invid.

Or, I can assume the list is accurate, and not invent non-canon reasons why to take them off the list.
again your choosing to make the list what you want "These things are powered solely and primarily by protoculutre" not what it says ""these things contain some form of protoculture power supply"

[Seto Kaiba]

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.

The entry clearly states that the reason the bike is invisible to Invid sensors is because it is not powered by a protoculture power source. That confirms the repeatedly stated fact that, unless a mecha, vehicle, or device uses protoculture as its power source, it is not detectable by Invid sensors. At no point anywhere in the text of any book is the Invid ability to detect protoculture applied to anything other than power generation.

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule"

I think you may not understand how "burden of proof" works... you're arguing against the text that says that the Invid detect protoculture used to generate power. The argument that VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC military hardware is detectable is beyond the absurd. It depends on NOT reading the text of the books which only ever ascribes the Invid ability to detect protoculture energy to active protoculture power sources, and a failure to note that Macross Saga and Masters Saga books clearly indicate that the listed mecha aren't using the stuff.

As luck would have it, the reflex denials your argument and those like it depend upon don't use protoculture either... so at least the Invid won't notice how baseless they are.

Things that were not on the list, are not on the list

Actually, we've conclusively demonstrated that the VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are on that list wrongly, because later books establish that they are not protoculture-powered, and that equipment that isn't protoculture-powered is invisible to Invid protoculture sensors.

"This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."

Had you actually bothered to read the books, you would notice that the Invid are only said to detect energy produced by protoculture power systems and sources... something the RPG does not place aboard any of the mecha in question. Until you provide proof, from the text, that explicitly places protoculture-based energy systems aboard those mecha, you can't make a cogent argument.

Prove that No protoculture MAIN POWER PLANT = no protoculture OF ANY SORT.

I have a better challenge for you... prove that no mention of protoculture anywhere somehow means that those mecha use protoculture anyway.

[eliakon]

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.

The entry clearly states that the reason the bike is invisible to Invid sensors is because it is not powered by a protoculture power source. That confirms the repeatedly stated fact that, unless a mecha, vehicle, or device uses protoculture as its power source, it is not detectable by Invid sensors. At no point anywhere in the text of any book is the Invid ability to detect protoculture applied to anything other than power generation.

no, power systems, there is, again, a big difference. This bike was never on the list, ergo its not any sort of proof that the list is wrong.

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule"

I think you may not understand how "burden of proof" works... you're arguing against the text that says that the Invid detect protoculture used to generate power. The argument that VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC military hardware is detectable is beyond the absurd. It depends on NOT reading the text of the books which only ever ascribes the Invid ability to detect protoculture energy to active protoculture power sources, and a failure to note that Macross Saga and Masters Saga books clearly indicate that the listed mecha aren't using the stuff.

that would be 'SOURCES, you know anything that is actually using protoculture in some way that is powered. Like the hypothetical protoculture chips'

Things that were not on the list, are not on the list

Actually, we've conclusively demonstrated that the VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are on that list wrongly, because later books establish that they are not protoculture-powered, and that equipment that isn't protoculture-powered is invisible to Invid protoculture sensors.

No you have conclusively demonstrated that you don't like the list as written, and you feel that it should be changed to reflect how you feel the system works.

"This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."

Had you actually bothered to read the books, you would notice that the Invid are only said to detect energy produced by protoculture power systems and sources... something the RPG does not place aboard any of the mecha in question. Until you provide proof, from the text, that explicitly places protoculture-based energy systems aboard those mecha, you can't make a cogent argument.

Er, once again I have read the books. And once again, it doesn't have to be a power plant. It could be, as has been suggested before, either some sort of pc chip, or a rechargeable pc 'capacitor' type device. Either of which would make the books as written correct, and since we don't have ANYTHING about how the mechanics of robotechnology work, are still perfectly plausible.

Prove that No protoculture MAIN POWER PLANT = no protoculture OF ANY SORT.

I have a better challenge for you... prove that no mention of protoculture anywhere somehow means that those mecha use protoculture anyway.

Easy, I look to the Invid list and see "these use protoculture"
Then I look to the books that came out AFTER the macros and masters books (new generation, genesis pits) and note that they can STILL see those (they refer to the list, as written)
okay, so the books say that there is some sort of protoculture power supply. What it is I don't know, but the books say its there.
okay that was easy, your turn, where is a line that says there ISN'T protoculture. as in an active line that says its not there. There isn't one is there?
You can make all the claims you want that the list isn't valid, but you don't have an actual source to back up that claim. I don't have to know WHAT the source of the PC is, just that its there. It very well could be the PC chips, which are mentioned in the macros anime. None of us here know how those work, and the sources don't say. But it would seem to fit the facts.
PC chips are put in tech. When PC chips are energized, a some sort of rechargeable PC cell (a capacitor style device) is energized. That energy is now detectable.
Again, I don't know how it works, but the list says that it DOES work.

[jaymz]

One problem. It is established that IF mecha have a secondary power source (or a back up) of any kind it would be listed under the power system section, just as it was for the Alpha's and Beta's fusion generators.

Now, the Macross mecha DO in fact list their secondary or additional power sources, NONE of which used are listed as using protoculture. They also list their back up or secondary power sources as running on hydrogen. This shows ZERO reason for there to be any OTHER power sources on board as they do specifically list the power sources they ACTUALLY have.

Master era mecha only ever list one type of power source and based on the previous precedent set by both Macross and TSC of listing any secondary power systems on board, it is only logical to conclude that Masters era mecha do not have back up or secondary systems on board.

To continue to argue that these mecha MUST have some kind of secret unknown protoculture power source is ludicrous since the books go out of their way to list any and all power sources on board.....repeatedly.

But I suspect the only response I'll get to this is effectively "NUH-UH the list says they do!!!!" because god forbid the list in a single line of one book could possibly be in error instead of saying the author of two subsequent books got ALL of the mecha wrong somehow even though these things were actually vetted by HG before going to print.

And before anyone says HG just rubber stamps, I'll remind any of you who wish to do so that HG is who put the kybosh on the original UEEF Marine Sourcebook for whatever reasons those may be which shows they do NOT rubber stamp anything/everything Palladium does but actually shows they look it over to make sure it fits what they think it should be.

[guardiandashi]

No the entry states that something that was never on the list to begin with, is ivisible.

The entry clearly states that the reason the bike is invisible to Invid sensors is because it is not powered by a protoculture power source. That confirms the repeatedly stated fact that, unless a mecha, vehicle, or device uses protoculture as its power source, it is not detectable by Invid sensors. At no point anywhere in the text of any book is the Invid ability to detect protoculture applied to anything other than power generation.

So yes, it DOES matter. You can't prove that a list is wrong, by going over grabing something that was not on the list, and saying "hey look, this breaks your rule"

I think you may not understand how "burden of proof" works... you're arguing against the text that says that the Invid detect protoculture used to generate power. The argument that VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC military hardware is detectable is beyond the absurd. It depends on NOT reading the text of the books which only ever ascribes the Invid ability to detect protoculture energy to active protoculture power sources, and a failure to note that Macross Saga and Masters Saga books clearly indicate that the listed mecha aren't using the stuff.

As luck would have it, the reflex denials your argument and those like it depend upon don't use protoculture either... so at least the Invid won't notice how baseless they are.

Things that were not on the list, are not on the list

Actually, we've conclusively demonstrated that the VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are on that list wrongly, because later books establish that they are not protoculture-powered, and that equipment that isn't protoculture-powered is invisible to Invid protoculture sensors.

"This should not be on the list because it does not have any form of protoculture whatsoever, thus it can't be tracked" This is NOT the same as "well the main engine isn't PC, and thus I will just assume that inspite of the list, it doesn't have any other PC elements to it, so I can now assume the list was wrong"
You cant just say "the list is wrong, and the evidence is that, I assume the list is wrong."

Had you actually bothered to read the books, you would notice that the Invid are only said to detect energy produced by protoculture power systems and sources... something the RPG does not place aboard any of the mecha in question. Until you provide proof, from the text, that explicitly places protoculture-based energy systems aboard those mecha, you can't make a cogent argument.


actually that's not EXACTLY that it says, Protoculture Targeting System:
locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting protoculture energy this would apply to list {snip} and any protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device

so yes it is quite possible a "protoculture Chip" depending on exactly what it did could emit a protoculture signal even if its not powered by a protoculture generator

[jaymz]

The funny part in all of this?

I have posed this scenario using letters in place of book names and mecha to several non robotech or gaming fans.

Book A says this sensor detects P power used by units X, Y and Z. Unit X is published in Book A, the same book that has the sensor.

Book B says unit Y uses H power.

Books C says unit Z also uses H power.

Neither book indicates that units Y or Z use P power in any way shape or form.

Based on this information would

A - Assume the list is made inaccurate by Book B and C showing that Units Y and Z do not use P power in any way

or

B - Assume Units Y and Z MUST use P power even though Books B and C, the books that actually publish these units, indicate they do not use it in any way, for no other reason than the list in Book A says they do?

Every single one of them answered:

A - Assume the list is made inaccurate by Book B and C showing that Units Y and Z do not use P power in any way

[jaymz]

so yes it is quite possible a "protoculture Chip" depending on exactly what it did could emit a protoculture signal even if its not powered by a protoculture generator

Except that there is ZERO indication any such thing is ever used in these mecha. Ever.

[jaymz]

To go further, even if these PC chips WERE present the only emission you would get is an electrical one since it would be electrical power going through them, as emissions are the result of power usage. No PC power, no PC emissions.

[Seto Kaiba]

no, power systems, there is, again, a big difference. This bike was never on the list, ergo its not any sort of proof that the list is wrong.

I have no idea where you're getting this... if we have a clear-cut statement that, because it does not use a protoculture power source for energy, a vehicle is invisible to the Invid, logically that should apply exactly as the Invid sensor rules say it should. If you're not using generating protoculture energy to power your mecha, your mecha is not detectable to Invid sensors.

that would be 'SOURCES, you know anything that is actually using protoculture in some way that is powered. Like the hypothetical protoculture chips'

Strictly speaking, a "power source" is something that is supplying power... which means it is, therefore, consuming protoculture as a fuel. No such systems are present on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha... therefore the list is wrong because those mecha don't meet the basic precondition for being on that list.

Er, once again I have read the books. And once again, it doesn't have to be a power plant. [...]

The books clearly and repeatedly establish that only protoculture power sources (engines, generators, cells, reactors, feeds, etc.) are detected by the Invid. At no point, in any book, is it ever suggested that there's any other application of protoculture BESIDES energy generation that is visible to the Invid.

Easy, I look to the Invid list and see "these use protoculture"

But that's a known error, because it classifies those mecha as protoculture-powered and they're not. Find an actual statement that those mecha use protoculture.

Then I look to the books that came out AFTER the macros and masters books (new generation, genesis pits) and note that they can STILL see those (they refer to the list, as written)

Actually, it doesn't say that. In fact, the Genesis Pits book rule for "Sense Protoculture" is strictly limited to just vehicles and/or devices that use protoculture power, and Invid experiments that live on protoculture. Genesis Pits's text also repeatedly reiterates that using protoculture power is what makes technology detectable to Invid sensors. The New Generation source book rules for mutants also indicates that it's only technology that is powered by protoculture that is detectable, as previously quoted. The New Generation book also contains what amounts to an explicit statement that not using protoculture power makes a vehicle undetectable to protoculture sensors for the hover bike.

okay, so the books say that there is some sort of protoculture power supply. What it is I don't know, but the books say its there.

That's the fun part... the books say no such thing. You're asserting that they do, even though there isn't any such statement ANYWHERE in the text, because you don't like the facts.

actually that's not EXACTLY that it says, Protoculture Targeting System:
locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting protoculture energy this would apply to list {snip} and any protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device

Go back to the preceding pages, and read exactly what emits protoculture energy... the ONLY items which are EVER listed are POWER SOURCES. Engines, generators, cells, etc. That fact remains consistent across every book that mentions the Invid at all. The New Generation and Genesis Pits books make it very clear that what the Invid detect is protoculture-powered hardware (and they actually phrase it that way), as well as stating outright that NOT being protoculture-powered renders a system invisible to the Invid sensors.

This is why it's important to read the whole thing instead of fixating on one sentence that doesn't jive with later publications at all.

so yes it is quite possible a "protoculture Chip" depending on exactly what it did could emit a protoculture signal even if its not powered by a protoculture generator

Doesn't matter. Protoculture chips aren't mentioned in the RPG at all, and the stats for those mecha do not place any protoculture of any kind on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha. Until someone comes up with explicit statements from the books that place a protoculture system aboard those mecha, the argument that they're still somehow detectable to the Invid will be fallacious beyond salvaging.

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

[guardiandashi]

no, power systems, there is, again, a big difference. This bike was never on the list, ergo its not any sort of proof that the list is wrong.

I have no idea where you're getting this... if we have a clear-cut statement that, because it does not use a protoculture power source for energy, a vehicle is invisible to the Invid, logically that should apply exactly as the Invid sensor rules say it should. If you're not using generating protoculture energy to power your mecha, your mecha is not detectable to Invid sensors.

that would be 'SOURCES, you know anything that is actually using protoculture in some way that is powered. Like the hypothetical protoculture chips'

Strictly speaking, a "power source" is something that is supplying power... which means it is, therefore, consuming protoculture as a fuel. No such systems are present on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha... therefore the list is wrong because those mecha don't meet the basic precondition for being on that list.

Er, once again I have read the books. And once again, it doesn't have to be a power plant. [...]

The books clearly and repeatedly establish that only protoculture power sources (engines, generators, cells, reactors, feeds, etc.) are detected by the Invid. At no point, in any book, is it ever suggested that there's any other application of protoculture BESIDES energy generation that is visible to the Invid.

Easy, I look to the Invid list and see "these use protoculture"

But that's a known error, because it classifies those mecha as protoculture-powered and they're not. Find an actual statement that those mecha use protoculture.

Then I look to the books that came out AFTER the macros and masters books (new generation, genesis pits) and note that they can STILL see those (they refer to the list, as written)

Actually, it doesn't say that. In fact, the Genesis Pits book rule for "Sense Protoculture" is strictly limited to just vehicles and/or devices that use protoculture power, and Invid experiments that live on protoculture. Genesis Pits's text also repeatedly reiterates that using protoculture power is what makes technology detectable to Invid sensors. The New Generation source book rules for mutants also indicates that it's only technology that is powered by protoculture that is detectable, as previously quoted. The New Generation book also contains what amounts to an explicit statement that not using protoculture power makes a vehicle undetectable to protoculture sensors for the hover bike.

okay, so the books say that there is some sort of protoculture power supply. What it is I don't know, but the books say its there.

That's the fun part... the books say no such thing. You're asserting that they do, even though there isn't any such statement ANYWHERE in the text, because you don't like the facts.

actually that's not EXACTLY that it says, Protoculture Targeting System:
locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting protoculture energy this would apply to list {snip} and any protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device

Go back to the preceding pages, and read exactly what emits protoculture energy... the ONLY items which are EVER listed are POWER SOURCES. Engines, generators, cells, etc. That fact remains consistent across every book that mentions the Invid at all. The New Generation and Genesis Pits books make it very clear that what the Invid detect is protoculture-powered hardware (and they actually phrase it that way), as well as stating outright that NOT being protoculture-powered renders a system invisible to the Invid sensors.

This is why it's important to read the whole thing instead of fixating on one sentence that doesn't jive with later publications at all.

so yes it is quite possible a "protoculture Chip" depending on exactly what it did could emit a protoculture signal even if its not powered by a protoculture generator

Doesn't matter. Protoculture chips aren't mentioned in the RPG at all, and the stats for those mecha do not place any protoculture of any kind on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha. Until someone comes up with explicit statements from the books that place a protoculture system aboard those mecha, the argument that they're still somehow detectable to the Invid will be fallacious beyond salvaging.

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

you know what I am done pointing out that you do have several nuance details where you are wrong, ...
and just say this is exactly why retcons (Retroactive continuity changes)really suck because frankly all the robotech (macross) not macross 2 units WERE at least partially protoculture enhanced, and the robotech masters were chasing the sdf-1 BECAUSE their entire civilization and power sources REQUIRED protoculture and the last source of it was in the matrix (generator) zor(prime) hid in the sdf-1

[eliakon]

no, power systems, there is, again, a big difference. This bike was never on the list, ergo its not any sort of proof that the list is wrong.

I have no idea where you're getting this... if we have a clear-cut statement that, because it does not use a protoculture power source for energy, a vehicle is invisible to the Invid, logically that should apply exactly as the Invid sensor rules say it should. If you're not using generating protoculture energy to power your mecha, your mecha is not detectable to Invid sensors.

because it wasn't ever in doubt if the bike was detectable, this has as much validity as saying that a dodge caravan can't be detected.

that would be 'SOURCES, you know anything that is actually using protoculture in some way that is powered. Like the hypothetical protoculture chips'

Strictly speaking, a "power source" is something that is supplying power... which means it is, therefore, consuming protoculture as a fuel. No such systems are present on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha... therefore the list is wrong because those mecha don't meet the basic precondition for being on that list.

like a rechargeable power cell/capacitor?

Er, once again I have read the books. And once again, it doesn't have to be a power plant. [...]

The books clearly and repeatedly establish that only protoculture power sources (engines, generators, cells, reactors, feeds, etc.) are detected by the Invid. At no point, in any book, is it ever suggested that there's any other application of protoculture BESIDES energy generation that is visible to the Invid.

again, like a capacitor?

Easy, I look to the Invid list and see "these use protoculture"

But that's a known error, because it classifies those mecha as protoculture-powered and they're not. Find an actual statement that those mecha use protoculture.

saying that its not valid, because its in error, as proof that its not valid and thus in error, is circular logic at its worst. It's not a 'known error' its a "I don't like this" there is a significant difference

Then I look to the books that came out AFTER the macros and masters books (new generation, genesis pits) and note that they can STILL see those (they refer to the list, as written)

Actually, it doesn't say that. In fact, the Genesis Pits book rule for "Sense Protoculture" is strictly limited to just vehicles and/or devices that use protoculture power, and Invid experiments that live on protoculture. Genesis Pits's text also repeatedly reiterates that using protoculture power is what makes technology detectable to Invid sensors. The New Generation source book rules for mutants also indicates that it's only technology that is powered by protoculture that is detectable, as previously quoted. The New Generation book also contains what amounts to an explicit statement that not using protoculture power makes a vehicle undetectable to protoculture sensors for the hover bike.

When it says "refer to" and then sends you back to the base book for how various things work, then yes it is referring to the sensor.

okay, so the books say that there is some sort of protoculture power supply. What it is I don't know, but the books say its there.

That's the fun part... the books say no such thing. You're asserting that they do, even though there isn't any such statement ANYWHERE in the text, because you don't like the facts.

No, the books DO say it, YOUR the one saying you don't like facts. When the book says "there is a protoculture power supply to detect in these things." then, guess what? Its saying....there is a protoculture supply.

actually that's not EXACTLY that it says, Protoculture Targeting System:
locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting protoculture energy this would apply to list {snip} and any protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device

Go back to the preceding pages, and read exactly what emits protoculture energy... the ONLY items which are EVER listed are POWER SOURCES. Engines, generators, cells, etc. That fact remains consistent across every book that mentions the Invid at all. The New Generation and Genesis Pits books make it very clear that what the Invid detect is protoculture-powered hardware (and they actually phrase it that way), as well as stating outright that NOT being protoculture-powered renders a system invisible to the Invid sensors.

This is why it's important to read the whole thing instead of fixating on one sentence that doesn't jive with later publications at all.

Again your choosing to take two different things, claim that they are the same thing, and then use one to justfy the other. The PTS says what it says, It does not say to go look at what OTHER things say, which btw still fits.

so yes it is quite possible a "protoculture Chip" depending on exactly what it did could emit a protoculture signal even if its not powered by a protoculture generator

Doesn't matter. Protoculture chips aren't mentioned in the RPG at all, and the stats for those mecha do not place any protoculture of any kind on the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC mecha. Until someone comes up with explicit statements from the books that place a protoculture system aboard those mecha, the argument that they're still somehow detectable to the Invid will be fallacious beyond salvaging.

The game book places some sort of protoculture system on those mecha in the stats for the PTS. What that system IS, may not be specified, but officially there is something. The fallacy is that you get to say that the list is in error since your evidence that the list is wrong is...that the list is wrong.

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

No, its only case of arguing that the books are correct, that there is something that can be detected. Again If I detect electrical systems I will detect electric cars....and gasoline cars that have electrical systems. Even if the gasoline car doesn't have a specific stat block about the electrical system it still there, unless it is explicitly stated to be removed.

Arguing that the book is wrong is the definition of arguing against the book and arguing against canon.

I know you don't like the rule. I get that. But the rule exists. To change the rule you need actual POSITIVE evidence of error, not just a statement "the rule is wrong, because its wrong."

[Nightmask]

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

No, its only case of arguing that the books are correct, that there is something that can be detected. Again If I detect electrical systems I will detect electric cars....and gasoline cars that have electrical systems. Even if the gasoline car doesn't have a specific stat block about the electrical system it still there, unless it is explicitly stated to be removed.

Problem is you're just wrong, that sensor doesn't track electricity it tracks protoculture power sources. You just keep insisting that the sensor that tracks gasoline doesn't actually track gasoline, that it's just tracking electricity, even though that's completely contrary to what we actually know about the sensor. Since we know there are vehicles on the list that don't use protoculture that's definitive proof that the list is wrong, since the sensor tracks a specific fuel while it's being used and since they don't use that fuel then they can't have the signature to be tracked by.

Arguing that the book is wrong is the definition of arguing against the book and arguing against canon.

I know you don't like the rule. I get that. But the rule exists. To change the rule you need actual POSITIVE evidence of error, not just a statement "the rule is wrong, because its wrong."

Except you're the one arguing that the book is wrong, and you're the one insisting that positive evidence that the LIST (not the rule, the LIST) is wrong doesn't exist. Again, the list is NOT a rule, the rule is what we're told the protoculture sensor detects, which is an active protoculture power source. The rule tells us what belongs in the list, things with active protoculture power sources, if it doesn't have one then it doesn't go on the list. The list is wrong because it violates the rule regarding what goes on the list by listing things that that don't belong there.

You violate the book and canon even more by insisting that even if the protoculture power source is removed it still runs on and detects as a protoculture-powered device, for no other reason than 'well at some point it was on this list and it can never come off', as if the list somehow means more than the actual material on the items that were put on the list that don't belong there. So no matter how much you insist you're 'by the book' you aren't, because 'by the book' is that the sensor only tracks active protoculture power systems and if something doesn't explicitly note it has one then it doesn't belong on the list. Since the list has things on it that don't belong it is by definition wrong.

[Seto Kaiba]

you know what I am done pointing out that you do have several nuance details where you are wrong, ...

They only appear to be incorrect because you're taking them out of the broader context of the rules to which they belong. Excessive cherry-picking is pretty much the only thing lending any illusion of credibility to that argument that the fusion-powered mecha are detectable by sensors that only detect vehicles and so on which are protoculture-powered.

and just say this is exactly why retcons (Retroactive continuity changes)really suck because frankly all the robotech (macross) not macross 2 units WERE at least partially protoculture enhanced, and the robotech masters were chasing the sdf-1 BECAUSE their entire civilization and power sources REQUIRED protoculture and the last source of it was in the matrix (generator) zor(prime) hid in the sdf-1

Strictly speaking, when Harmony Gold and Palladium jointly established that the human mecha of the first two sagas did not use protoculture, they weren't actually retconning anything. No canon source had posited that those mecha used protoculture, and the show doesn't actually say it either. (Of course, that first bit owes a lot to the fact that, prior to the reboot, there was no canon at all...) It was simply a common (though quite logical) assumption made by many licensees and so on that those mecha used protoculture.

The reason for the problem here, and thus the fallacious argument about Invid protoculture sensors detecting mecha that don't use protoculture, is that Palladium was shooting at a moving target. Harmony Gold decided to establish those mecha didn't use protoculture AFTER the core book went to print. That's why the rule the thread has so exhaustively debated treats those mecha as though they were protoculture-powered, when all their stats clearly indicate they are not.

because it wasn't ever in doubt if the bike was detectable, this has as much validity as saying that a dodge caravan can't be detected.

Amazingly enough, there's no evidence to suggest the VF-1 is detectable since it runs on fusion and all of the Invid sensor rules say they only detect protoculture power supplies in operation. The bike is no different from the VF-1 or old Destroids, except in that it's minor enough to have not been mentioned in the core book when they made their soon-to-be-fallacious assumption about how certain mecha were powered.

like a rechargeable power cell/capacitor?

That would fall under "power sources" if it were a protoculture energy cell... but no such technology is listed among the stats for the VF-1, old Destroids, or ASC military hardware. They all use fusion, fuel cells, or an assortment of more conventional capacitors. If there is no protoculture listed in their stats, then under the oft-repeated descriptions in the rules for the Invid sensors and sensory abilities, they are not detectable... explicit mention of this fact is provided in the hover bike's stats.

again, like a capacitor?

A capacitor isn't energy generation, it's energy storage... and there is not any mention of any protoculture capacitor technology. The Invid detect protoculture energy production.

saying that its not valid, because its in error, as proof that its not valid and thus in error, is circular logic at its worst. It's not a 'known error' its a "I don't like this" there is a significant difference

No, I'm saying it's not valid because the printed stats for the mecha don't support it, and because the official canon indicates it's not correct.

When it says "refer to" and then sends you back to the base book for how various things work, then yes it is referring to the sensor.

Yet when it talks about those sensors and sensory abilities, it only ever mentions protoculture-powered gear.

No, the books DO say it, YOUR the one saying you don't like facts. When the book says "there is a protoculture power supply to detect in these things." then, guess what? Its saying....there is a protoculture supply.

There is no statement to that effect anywhere in the books, I'm afraid. If there were, I'm certain you would have quoted it by now. There is no mention of protoculture anywhere in the human mecha stats for the first two sagas.

I know you don't like the rule. I get that. But the rule exists. To change the rule you need actual POSITIVE evidence of error, not just a statement "the rule is wrong, because its wrong."

The problem with your assertion is that Harmony Gold canon and the fact that protoculture is never even mentioned in connection with the mecha in question in their stats IS positive evidence of error, along with the MANY specific references to the Invid only detecting protoculture-powered hardware.



Also, why are you all so deadset on ignoring jaymz?

[eliakon]

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

No, its only case of arguing that the books are correct, that there is something that can be detected. Again If I detect electrical systems I will detect electric cars....and gasoline cars that have electrical systems. Even if the gasoline car doesn't have a specific stat block about the electrical system it still there, unless it is explicitly stated to be removed.

Problem is you're just wrong, that sensor doesn't track electricity it tracks protoculture power sources. You just keep insisting that the sensor that tracks gasoline doesn't actually track gasoline, that it's just tracking electricity, even though that's completely contrary to what we actually know about the sensor. Since we know there are vehicles on the list that don't use protoculture that's definitive proof that the list is wrong, since the sensor tracks a specific fuel while it's being used and since they don't use that fuel then they can't have the signature to be tracked by.

No I am saying that the sensor detects protoculture (electricity). The new generation mecha are powered by protoculture (electric cars), the old style mecha are powered by fusion (gasoline) but they still have some sort of protoculture systems inside them (electrical systems)
again the statement 'does not use protoculture as its main powersource' does not equal 'has no protoculture'

Arguing that the book is wrong is the definition of arguing against the book and arguing against canon.

I know you don't like the rule. I get that. But the rule exists. To change the rule you need actual POSITIVE evidence of error, not just a statement "the rule is wrong, because its wrong."

Except you're the one arguing that the book is wrong, and you're the one insisting that positive evidence that the LIST (not the rule, the LIST) is wrong doesn't exist. Again, the list is NOT a rule, the rule is what we're told the protoculture sensor detects, which is an active protoculture power source. The rule tells us what belongs in the list, things with active protoculture power sources, if it doesn't have one then it doesn't go on the list. The list is wrong because it violates the rule regarding what goes on the list by listing things that that don't belong there.

Uh, the list is a rule. Its a specific list of what is detectable by the sensor. Again it does not say 'Is primarily powered by protoculture'

You violate the book and canon even more by insisting that even if the protoculture power source is removed it still runs on and detects as a protoculture-powered device, for no other reason than 'well at some point it was on this list and it can never come off', as if the list somehow means more than the actual material on the items that were put on the list that don't belong there. So no matter how much you insist you're 'by the book' you aren't, because 'by the book' is that the sensor only tracks active protoculture power systems and if something doesn't explicitly note it has one then it doesn't belong on the list. Since the list has things on it that don't belong it is by definition wrong.

No I say that unless you remove the protoculture power sources from the mecha you cant hide. The fusion reactor is not the source of the emissions, ergo removing it wont change the emissions.
Your insistence that only the main powerplant is relevant to the sensor is your opinion, but it is not backed by the book.


You need to separate what the books say, and what you want them to say.
the books say 'there is protoculture on these mecha, though that protoculture may not be the main reactor"
what you want them to say is "we changed our mind, there is no protoculture"
but that's not what it says.

[Seto Kaiba]

No I am saying that the sensor detects protoculture (electricity). The new generation mecha are powered by protoculture (electric cars), the old style mecha are powered by fusion (gasoline) but they still have some sort of protoculture systems inside them (electrical systems) [...]

But there's no evidence whatsoever anywhere in the RPG that that's the case... you're asserting there is, but have yet to provide any actual evidence in the form of... well... anything.

again the statement 'does not use protoculture as its main powersource' does not equal 'has no protoculture'

Ironically, for the purposes of the RPG, which treats protoculture power sources as the only detectable use of the stuff... it actually DOES. If it doesn't use protoculture as its power source, it doesn't use protoculture.

No I say that unless you remove the protoculture power sources from the mecha you cant hide. The fusion reactor is not the source of the emissions, ergo removing it wont change the emissions.
Your insistence that only the main powerplant is relevant to the sensor is your opinion, but it is not backed by the book.

Actually, his assertion IS backed up by the book... because the only sources of protoculture energy that are identified in the core book, New Generation book, and Genesis Pits book, are protoculture power supplies like protoculture-driven engines, furnaces, reactors, cells, and other power supplies.

You need to separate what the books say, and what you want them to say.

Considering the substance of your fallacies, you may want to take your own advice before dispensing it to others...

the books say 'there is protoculture on these mecha, though that protoculture may not be the main reactor"
what you want them to say is "we changed our mind, there is no protoculture"
but that's not what it says.

The books do not say anything of the kind...

[Nightmask]

The argument that they should still be detected, or that there is some undocumented protoculture power source aboard those mecha, is entirely a case of arguing against the books, against common sense, and against Palladium's own writing practices... not to mention canon.

No, its only case of arguing that the books are correct, that there is something that can be detected. Again If I detect electrical systems I will detect electric cars....and gasoline cars that have electrical systems. Even if the gasoline car doesn't have a specific stat block about the electrical system it still there, unless it is explicitly stated to be removed.

Problem is you're just wrong, that sensor doesn't track electricity it tracks protoculture power sources. You just keep insisting that the sensor that tracks gasoline doesn't actually track gasoline, that it's just tracking electricity, even though that's completely contrary to what we actually know about the sensor. Since we know there are vehicles on the list that don't use protoculture that's definitive proof that the list is wrong, since the sensor tracks a specific fuel while it's being used and since they don't use that fuel then they can't have the signature to be tracked by.

No I am saying that the sensor detects protoculture (electricity). The new generation mecha are powered by protoculture (electric cars), the old style mecha are powered by fusion (gasoline) but they still have some sort of protoculture systems inside them (electrical systems)
again the statement 'does not use protoculture as its main powersource' does not equal 'has no protoculture'

Which is dead wrong, protoculture isn't electricity, it's protoculture. Electrical systems aren't protoculture systems they're electrical systems and the sensor clearly tracks protoculture POWER sources NOT electricity.

Arguing that the book is wrong is the definition of arguing against the book and arguing against canon.

I know you don't like the rule. I get that. But the rule exists. To change the rule you need actual POSITIVE evidence of error, not just a statement "the rule is wrong, because its wrong."

Except you're the one arguing that the book is wrong, and you're the one insisting that positive evidence that the LIST (not the rule, the LIST) is wrong doesn't exist. Again, the list is NOT a rule, the rule is what we're told the protoculture sensor detects, which is an active protoculture power source. The rule tells us what belongs in the list, things with active protoculture power sources, if it doesn't have one then it doesn't go on the list. The list is wrong because it violates the rule regarding what goes on the list by listing things that that don't belong there.

Uh, the list is a rule. Its a specific list of what is detectable by the sensor. Again it does not say 'Is primarily powered by protoculture'

No, the list isn't a rule, the list is a selection of things made up FROM the rule. The rule is 'this sensor detects things that have active protoculture power systems', therefor the list should only contain things that have such systems, if something is on the list but the item itself when looked at doesn't fit the rule then it doesn't belong on the list. It certainly doesn't mean that the the list trumps the actual item in question or the actual rule.

You violate the book and canon even more by insisting that even if the protoculture power source is removed it still runs on and detects as a protoculture-powered device, for no other reason than 'well at some point it was on this list and it can never come off', as if the list somehow means more than the actual material on the items that were put on the list that don't belong there. So no matter how much you insist you're 'by the book' you aren't, because 'by the book' is that the sensor only tracks active protoculture power systems and if something doesn't explicitly note it has one then it doesn't belong on the list. Since the list has things on it that don't belong it is by definition wrong.

No I say that unless you remove the protoculture power sources from the mecha you cant hide. The fusion reactor is not the source of the emissions, ergo removing it wont change the emissions.
Your insistence that only the main powerplant is relevant to the sensor is your opinion, but it is not backed by the book.

*laughs* Talk about someone who's dead wrong, you've actually convinced yourself that your house rule so all mecha can be tracked is actually canon to the books instead of contrary to the books. About the only thing right about that is Fusion reactors don't produce protoculture power signatures, what's amazingly wrong is the insistence that mecha generate a protoculture power signature without having any actual protoculture involved in powering them or even in them.

You need to separate what the books say, and what you want them to say.
the books say 'there is protoculture on these mecha, though that protoculture may not be the main reactor"
what you want them to say is "we changed our mind, there is no protoculture"
but that's not what it says.

Seems like you need to heed your own words, the books don't even remotely say any of what you claim. What the books say is 'these mecha don't use protoculture', they don't say 'well they still have some protoculture anyway' which is what you want them to say. The books say 'this sensor only tracks active protoculture power sources' not 'it tracks everything'. The books don't say 'these mecha have some protoculture power sources, they just aren't the main ones' the books say 'these non-protoculture power systems are what these mecha run on'.

If as Seto points out you actually had book references to the effect that those mecha actually do have protoculture power sources somewhere you'd have already pointed them out, but because they don't you can't.

[Seto Kaiba]

If as Seto points out you actually had book references to the effect that those mecha actually do have protoculture power sources somewhere you'd have already pointed them out, but because they don't you can't.

Don't forget that I was able to provide, from the New Generation source book, an explicit statement that not being protoculture-powered makes a vehicle invisible to Invid sensors.

[Nightmask]

If as Seto points out you actually had book references to the effect that those mecha actually do have protoculture power sources somewhere you'd have already pointed them out, but because they don't you can't.

Don't forget that I was able to provide, from the New Generation source book, an explicit statement that not being protoculture-powered makes a vehicle invisible to Invid sensors.

Wouldn't go and do that I assure you. It just baffles me the apparent burning need that the sensor be a 'track anything' sensor in contradiction to its canon status as an 'active protoculture-power source' sensor only some have. It's not like the non-trackable vehicles would be that common (the original Invid Invasion book doesn't really list any non-protoculture mecha) or that it would give some kind of overwhelming advantage to a PC group (after all they're outnumbered like a million to one and it certainly wouldn't let them kill Invid troopers with impunity). It's not like invisibility to the sensor translates into actual invisibility where they can't be detected by anything.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wouldn't go and do that I assure you. It just baffles me the apparent burning need that the sensor be a 'track anything' sensor in contradiction to its canon status as an 'active protoculture-power source' sensor only some have.

A few people have suggested, elsewhere, that it's because I'M defending the rules as written here... there's a certain prestige attached to contradicting me in some parts of the fandom, for reasons that amuse the heck out of me. Though, honestly, I think it's partly because the fusion thing is OSM-derived, and partly because it's actually turning the Alpha's big advantage (longevity at the expense of performance) into a liability again (giving away your position every time you switch on, while the older, higher-spec mecha are invisible to the enemy).

It's not like the non-trackable vehicles would be that common (the original Invid Invasion book doesn't really list any non-protoculture mecha) or that it would give some kind of overwhelming advantage to a PC group (after all they're outnumbered like a million to one and it certainly wouldn't let them kill Invid troopers with impunity). It's not like invisibility to the sensor translates into actual invisibility where they can't be detected by anything.

Indeed... the RPG even repeats (via a cut-and-paste summation) that the mecha of the Macross Saga are EXCEEDINGLY RARE museum pieces by the time the Invid show up, and that even the ASC hardware is on the rare side. That slight advantage of not giving your position away is 1. one of the fundamental things that makes the resistance seem even remotely practical (the RPG asserts the resistance fighters are AWARE of the Invid ability to track protoculture and react accordingly) and 2. not really enough to make up the massive difference in numbers, since the weapon damages didn't scale properly, so the armaments of previous generations aren't that much killier than what the New Gen has.

(Now it'd be totally broken if you threw in something like Macross R's YF-27-5, which would be both invisible to the Invid AND literally capable of becoming invisible to the naked eye and cameras.)

[jaymz]

And all this so the players can't negate a +4 strike bonus that, unless they go looking and trying to figure it out, the characters shouldn't even know about making it pointless as they shouldn't be able to take advantage of it in the first place UNTIL they figure it out for themselves and any player using out of game knowledge to make sure they figure it out without grounds to do so IN game is going to get a swift kick in the ass from me as the GM.

[Nightmask]

Wouldn't go and do that I assure you. It just baffles me the apparent burning need that the sensor be a 'track anything' sensor in contradiction to its canon status as an 'active protoculture-power source' sensor only some have.

A few people have suggested, elsewhere, that it's because I'M defending the rules as written here... there's a certain prestige attached to contradicting me in some parts of the fandom, for reasons that amuse the heck out of me. Though, honestly, I think it's partly because the fusion thing is OSM-derived, and partly because it's actually turning the Alpha's big advantage (longevity at the expense of performance) into a liability again (giving away your position every time you switch on, while the older, higher-spec mecha are invisible to the enemy).

I think that's more of a general human phenomenon most commonly seen on the Internet, the need to contradict and try to prove wrong a perceived authority on something and thereby gain status by being the victor. I run into it on occasion on other sites (I've been told I should be flattered and see it as some kind of compliment, I just see it as a depressing waste of time).

I think it though does lean more towards just wanting all the mecha to be trackable and slant things against the PC group rather than just to prove you wrong.

[jaymz]

(Now it'd be totally broken if you threw in something like Macross R's YF-27-5, which would be both invisible to the Invid AND literally capable of becoming invisible to the naked eye and cameras.)

Which wouldn't matter anyway as nothing could catch it or hit it at the range it can fire anyway....

[Nightmask]

And all this so the players can't negate a +4 strike bonus that, unless they go looking and trying to figure it out, the characters shouldn't even know about making it pointless as they shouldn't be able to take advantage of it in the first place UNTIL they figure it out for themselves and any player using out of game knowledge to make sure they figure it out without grounds to do so IN game is going to get a swift kick in the ass from me as the GM.

Thing is though the GM SHOULD be giving them a chance to figure it out, it's not like the anime PC group were geniuses yet the 'Wilderness Scout' was the one who clued in on things. It shouldn't be extremely difficult to figure out that when you're running your mecha or have your weapons powered up you seem to deal with more threats and they seem to know where you are. Doesn't mean they'd be able to do much however unless the GM explicitly made the non-detectable mecha available as well, at best they'd have to resort to what we see in the anime of using non-protoculture vehicles to transport their protoculture-powered mecha around and only power them up when in active combat.

[jaymz]

Not saying it should be impossible but unless the characters (not the players) have some reason to notice then the player better not have them notice just because they (the player) knows about it. Invid still shoot at what is shooting at them PC be-damned. If they are being fired at only when they attack there is zero reason to suspect it. If they are being ambushed and tracked down constantly that's another thing and would be grounds to start thinking over why. trying to say "oh we notice this" in the first scenario to me won't fly, saying it in the second scenario would. make more sense?

[Seto Kaiba]

And all this so the players can't negate a +4 strike bonus that, unless they go looking and trying to figure it out, the characters shouldn't even know about making it pointless as they shouldn't be able to take advantage of it in the first place UNTIL they figure it out for themselves [...]

Or they pick an OCC that already IC-ly knows about it... like those resistance fighters in the New Generation source book. You know the ones I mean, the ones on the same page as that hilariously terribad pic of a guy who seems to belong to the UEEF's Village People cover band.

(Now it'd be totally broken if you threw in something like Macross R's YF-27-5, which would be both invisible to the Invid AND literally capable of becoming invisible to the naked eye and cameras.)

Which wouldn't matter anyway as nothing could catch it or hit it at the range it can fire anyway....

True... that'd break the game on a bunch of levels, even if you didn't scale damages correctly. Something about being able to dispense consequence-free nuclear fireballs from a hundred-plus kilometers away takes rather a lot out of the Invid as a threat.

I think it though does lean more towards just wanting all the mecha to be trackable and slant things against the PC group rather than just to prove you wrong.

Personally, I think the way it's written seems like a fair tradeoff... hydrogen fueling stations are supposed to be common-ish in larger communities, but there's an inherent danger in flying in to get the stuff and there's lower overall endurance (under the RPG version, anyway). Protoculture offers more endurance in the field, but that comes at the price of added enemy attention that'll force you to use more energy.

It'd be one thing if the weapon damages scaled organically according to their stats, but the numbers are the usual Palladium arbitrary assignment, so there's no real progression in weapon damages. The VF-1 would be broken as hell if it were both invisible to Invid sensors AND had weapons that were identified and scaled correctly.

[jaymz]

So let 's see, what have we got thus far....

Invid sensor detects protoculture usage.
Sensor has a generic list of things it can detect thus assuming these things use protoculture.

Specific mecha that are to be on that list show no protoculture usage whatsoever in their primary OR secondary/back-up power systems/sources which logically indicates they should not be included on the list of things to be detected.

Precedent is set that primary and secondary power systems are listed in the mecha write ups and not only that specify their power type. Alpha is Primary PC, secondary back up is fusion. Beta as well. VF-1 is two primary fusion turbines with a third fusion generator all using SLMH. Destroids use Fusion reactors using SLMH with a hydrogen turbine as a secondary backup. ASC mecha are all single primary power systems/sources that are fusion reactor/turbine based using SLMH or a hydrogen fuel stack.

The books are quite specific about the type and number of power sources/systems the mecha have, so arguing that some unknown secret PC power source MUST be present is asinine.

[ShadowLogan]

Possibly because a protoculture cell doesn't recharge like a battery... if the process of reusing a protoculture cell involves replenishing the protoculture inside of it (as the RPG seems to hint at) rather than simply plugging it into something and waiting for the voltage level to rise, it may be "recharging" in the sense of a propane cylinder or other gas tank.

Saying PC cells can be recharged, when there are several ways that statement can be taken can create issues. It would be clearer to state "refill" or "refuel" than "recharge".

This argument still doesn't hold water, because the text of that list indicates the reason those vehicles are supposedly detectable is that they're powered by protoculture. We have a statement from the New Gen's source book that not being powered by protoculture makes you invisible to the Invid, and the RPG's stats for those vehicles clearly indicate they are not using protoculture for power.

The RPG really is only going down to the basic system level in vehicles and mecha though. At the component level for some of those systems, energy discharging components (capacitors, transistors, battery, etc) are the involved, and we know from the show that PC can find its way into circuit boards so an active PC emission can be present w/o the use of PC as a fuel.

Shockingly enough, because those mecha are generally not relevant to the Invid Invasion period. It's only in books where they start diverging from what's in the series and talking about material from one saga being in events from another that we start getting statements to the effect of "if it's not protoculture-powered, the Invid can't see it".

That might hold water if not for the TRM SB actually takes the time to talk about each mecha during the Invid Invasion/occupation period briefly and omits the aspect they are invisible to the IPTS, which one would think would be an attractive reason to acquire them.

Or those mecha are invisible, as the text of the new generation source book indicates they should be, and it's up to the GM to figure out how to cope with it.

Unlikely the mecha are invisible as the ones in question get singled out and mentioned specifically in the list. It really doesn't require the GM to figure anything out beyond saying that the mecha use PC in some unspecified form that gives them away to maintain consistency across the books.

The text for IPTS puts an emphasis on "actively using PC energy", it doesn't require the mecha to be powered by PC it only really requires it to be using PC energy, which can manifest if the PC is discharging energy at an electrical component level and not just the main energy source. And the reality is no one really knows just what the PC energy detected actually is, just that it is associated with PC energy use.

DOES NOT MATTER.

The entry clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes you invisible to the Invid.

The VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha are not protoculture-powered, therefore they are invisible to the Invid.

It does matter. By the RPG's terminology, the Banshee is a VEHICLE and NOT A MECHA. Mecha by indicated in the IPTS have PC present, later descriptions of said mecha merely push the use to a sub-layer that most people don't think about.

One problem. It is established that IF mecha have a secondary power source (or a back up) of any kind it would be listed under the power system section, just as it was for the Alpha's and Beta's fusion generators.

From an electrical component perspective, they also have additional components that can "emitt" or "release" or "discharge" energy that aren't even mentioned or considered from the Power System entry.

[jaymz]

One problem. It is established that IF mecha have a secondary power source (or a back up) of any kind it would be listed under the power system section, just as it was for the Alpha's and Beta's fusion generators.

From an electrical component perspective, they also have additional components that can "emitt" or "release" or "discharge" energy that aren't even mentioned or considered from the Power System entry.

Except that to emit anything there has to be a usage of said thing. In order to emit PC energy it has to use PC energy which the books go out of their way to show they do not have.

Running electricity through even the so called "unmentioned anywhere in the text PC chips" would not emit a PC signature. It would emit an electrical one. An electrical signature generated by SLMH or hydrogen power sources/supplies/systems. If you were to take readings off present microchips and processors that electrical currents run through them, do yet get an electrical signature or a base component signature? You get an electrical one not a copper and certainly not whatever else the component materials are. No PC power, no PC emissions or energy usage to detect.


Seriously, why is it THAT difficult to see this?


The earlier car analogy is actually a very good one.

A sensor can detect cars that use gasoline, including Volkswagens.

However I buy a Volkswagen with diesel engine.

Should my Volkswagen still be detected by that sensor? MUST it have some sort of gasoline power in it since it is on the list?

It still has many systems that are the same, such as a battery, alternator and electrical wiring but it's emissions are NOT gasoline.

Why would a gas emission sensor detect diesel emissions? Why would anyone argue it would?

And believe me their is a significant difference between gas emissions and diesel emissions to those who know about the two. I had to as a commercial truck driver and the various emission standards my Truck had to meet on an annual basis.

The above is the EXACT same argument as we having over the PC sensor.

However the only argument I have seen, even though much evidence has been shown to the contrary (lack of indication of PC in said mecha and the fact the books go out of their way to list any and all power sources/systems along with what they use), is that BECAUSE it is ON the LIST it MUST have PC. Does no one see how ridiculous a position this is?

[Seto Kaiba]

Saying PC cells can be recharged, when there are several ways that statement can be taken can create issues. It would be clearer to state "refill" or "refuel" than "recharge".

But if they're talking a pressure vessel or other fluid container used for vehicular power, "recharge" would be the correct term.

The RPG really is only going down to the basic system level in vehicles and mecha though. At the component level for some of those systems, energy discharging components (capacitors, transistors, battery, etc) are the involved, [...]

Yes, but if the rules don't specifically mention something... then it either doesn't exist or is not so important that it'll have any tangible effect on the game. There is no mention of any protoculture-powered or -based systems aboard the VF-1, the old Destroids, and the ASC mecha. If it's not mentioned, it's not there... and never mind that the rules for the Invid sensors clearly indicate that the sensors (and senses) only detect a running protoculture power system... which we know for a fact those mecha do not use.

and we know from the show that PC can find its way into circuit boards so an active PC emission can be present w/o the use of PC as a fuel.

Onto circuit boards in what context? The show doesn't say. If protoculture is being used as a semiconductor material for integrated circuits, it wouldn't be consuming or generating energy, it would merely be a conductor for microvoltage electricity, and thus under the definitions in the book would not generate any emissions that the Invid could detect.

That might hold water if not for the TRM SB actually takes the time to talk about each mecha during the Invid Invasion/occupation period briefly and omits the aspect they are invisible to the IPTS, which one would think would be an attractive reason to acquire them.

They shouldn't need to mention them being invisible, because the rules clearly state only mecha that rely on protoculture power systems are invisible to those sensors, and the Masters Saga source book clearly states those mecha use nuclear fusion or fuel cells. Furthermore, the New Generation source book explicitly states that not using protoculture makes a vehicle invisible to the Invid sensors... and the specific example used is, shockingly, a Southern Cross Army vehicle.

Unlikely the mecha are invisible as the ones in question get singled out and mentioned specifically in the list. It really doesn't require the GM to figure anything out beyond saying that the mecha use PC in some unspecified form that gives them away to maintain consistency across the books.

If the GM bothers to actually read the books or exercise any common sense upon reading the stats, they'd be able to spot the error for an error instantly and apply the letter and spirit of the rules accordingly by making those mecha 1. rare and 2. invisible to the Invid the way multiple books indicate they should be. If the GM wants to add some protoculture power source to make the mecha detectable, that would be a house rule.

The text for IPTS puts an emphasis on "actively using PC energy", it doesn't require the mecha to be powered by PC it only really requires it to be using PC energy,

In order to actively be using protoculture energy, the vehicle or device would need to have a protoculture power source aboard it, per the rules. Only power generation produces protoculture energy emissions.

Please actually read the books, because your argument is not supportable via the text.