Forums of the Megaverse®

Forar wrote:Xia is being produced by one guy, and manages to drop a small novel detailing the work going on roughly once a week.
[...]
Poor communication is not a given based on company size.

Oh, I know. At no point did I suggest it was a universal problem experienced by all small businesses.

What I DID say, quite literally, is that communications shortcomings are fairly typical for a small business. They're a small outfit, who don't have any dedicated PR staff or anyone skilled in public relations to make sure that what management is saying is both sufficiently detailed and relevant to the customer's needs.

(I'm not saying it's not a legitimate problem, I'm just saying it's not an uncommon problem for many companies dealing with customer interactions... particularly when they're in unfamiliar territory.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Forar wrote:Xia is being produced by one guy, and manages to drop a small novel detailing the work going on roughly once a week.
[...]
Poor communication is not a given based on company size.

Oh, I know. At no point did I suggest it was a universal problem experienced by all small businesses.

What I DID say, quite literally, is that communications shortcomings are fairly typical for a small business. They're a small outfit, who don't have any dedicated PR staff or anyone skilled in public relations to make sure that what management is saying is both sufficiently detailed and relevant to the customer's needs.

(I'm not saying it's not a legitimate problem, I'm just saying it's not an uncommon problem for many companies dealing with customer interactions... particularly when they're in unfamiliar territory.)

Small business or no the communication problem has gotten worse since the last update.

Sure, which can make Palladium's communications failures not surprising, and yet remain frustrating/disappointing all the same. Far too many people simply accept it as a given, when evidence to the contrary does exist.

Though for a company that has over three decades of expertise in the art of written communications, their issues in this matter remain funny. I'd give "small company that makes widgets" a more forgiving pass on that over one whose sole purpose is to communicate things in a written form constantly. Not that there aren't some noteworthy differences, but from an overhead view, it's kind of hilarious.

Fake edit: I'm not sure one can really say it's gotten that much worse. Sure, I was hoping for an update along with a bunch of the other backers, but as long as the next one pops up soon'ish and has hard hitting info (because their time line for July is ticking down quickly at this point), it's not impossible to continue to improve.

Forar wrote:Sure, which can make Palladium's communications failures not surprising, and yet remain frustrating/disappointing all the same. Far too many people simply accept it as a given, [...]

Well, in truth I think part of the problem is the fact that Palladium Books is a small outfit with just a couple staffers with too many balls in the air and with no trained juggler in sight. They're trying to simultaneously keep tabs on the in-house and external development of RRT, handle investor relations for same, keep their IP-owning stakeholder in the loop and the approvals process, continue development of other pending titles they've already announced, and manage any events they intend to attend.

That's a LOT to ask of six people on a good day.

Forar wrote:Though for a company that has over three decades of expertise in the art of written communications, their issues in this matter remain funny. I'd give "small company that makes widgets" a more forgiving pass on that over one whose sole purpose is to communicate things in a written form constantly.

Palladium Books has plenty of experience in the field of written communications... but there's a difference between communicating profusely and communicating effectively. I don't need to quote you all the major issues Palladium's books often have with layout and last-second editorial changes.

Kryptt wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Forar wrote:Xia is being produced by one guy, and manages to drop a small novel detailing the work going on roughly once a week.
[...]
Poor communication is not a given based on company size.

Oh, I know. At no point did I suggest it was a universal problem experienced by all small businesses.

What I DID say, quite literally, is that communications shortcomings are fairly typical for a small business. They're a small outfit, who don't have any dedicated PR staff or anyone skilled in public relations to make sure that what management is saying is both sufficiently detailed and relevant to the customer's needs.

(I'm not saying it's not a legitimate problem, I'm just saying it's not an uncommon problem for many companies dealing with customer interactions... particularly when they're in unfamiliar territory.)

Small business or no the communication problem has gotten worse since the last update.

How can it get any worse? Worse IMHO would be no communication for months or even worse than that them actually admitting the whole project was FUBAR.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Well, in truth I think part of the problem is the fact that Palladium Books is a small outfit with just a couple staffers with too many balls in the air and with no trained juggler in sight. They're trying to simultaneously keep tabs on the in-house and external development of RRT, handle investor relations for same, keep their IP-owning stakeholder in the loop and the approvals process, continue development of other pending titles they've already announced, and manage any events they intend to attend.

That's a LOT to ask of six people on a good day.

I would laugh if I could, but you'd think after THIRTY THREE YEARS of juggling they'd get a little better at it.

Yes, I know, first time is so hard, but damnit - simple updates, even without pictures. Jeez.
Its been a week, they have to at least have a glimmer of progress.

Tiree wrote:

Jorel wrote:If I make a poor financial investment...am I a victim? The signs were all there for those who cared to look.

This is why I didn't back the RRT. Even though I have been tempted to many of times, and even thought about purchasing the initial box set when its released.

Right now - If I plan on purchasing any RRT mini's - they will be purchased on the 2nd hand market at a fraction of their initial price.

And that's the reason I sought, and am continuing to seek a refund. Because I don't have confidence I'll recover what I spent on the secondary market. I imagine there were a significant minority of backers who went the profiteer route, either increasing their pledge, or backing in the first place, for a chance to make banko (the BC price vs retail is ridiculous). If the disgruntled aren't more than a handful, that could seriously depress the secondary market, and that's bad for almost everyone, with the exception of people who want the items without consideration for the future success of the game.

If people can get the product at less than a third of retail (what trying to recover my costs would set prices at), that means retailers are going to have trouble shifting stock even at discount. Retailers not shifting stock are going to be less likely to restock, or promote the game long term (and getting retailers to promote long term is hard enough). Which means less store-managed play. Without a decent amount of in-store promotion, it increases the discount offered, which snowballs the glut. Which depresses the price, which lowers the wholesale and retail rates PB generate.

While that might sound drastic, it's free market capitalism at work, and has happened more than a couple of times, at least locally. CCG's, collectible miniatures, several wargames (Chronopia/Wargods of Aegyptus stand out). Buying at 1/4 of retail doesn't matter that much if noone is wanting to play a "dead game".

Kendachi wrote:I would laugh if I could, but you'd think after THIRTY THREE YEARS of juggling they'd get a little better at it.

Yes, I know, first time is so hard, but damnit - simple updates, even without pictures. Jeez.
Its been a week, they have to at least have a glimmer of progress.

Nearly 12 days, if we wish to get specific. Just over 2 days (in that it's now morning and the update went out in the evening, as I recall) from the 2 week mark.

Considering the fact that they are supposedly on the verge of starting full blown production, and have a mere 100 days until the end of July (a generous reading of the "July, maybe June" target) for production and shipping, 12+ days really needs to represent a massive jump in the status of those last 11 figures (the ones we haven't seen test sprues of).

Anything but some seriously good news would just be an instance of the disparity between what they say and reality.

Or maybe the update will be "So, about July/Gencon.... yeah, no." and they're just delaying the inevitable backlash.

Kendachi wrote:I would laugh if I could, but you'd think after THIRTY THREE YEARS of juggling they'd get a little better at it.

Some people just aren't suited to managing that kind of PR affair... I'm definitely not. You all know what a masterful diplomat I'm not.

Morgan Vening wrote:If the disgruntled aren't more than a handful, that could seriously depress the secondary market, and that's bad for almost everyone, with the exception of people who want the items without consideration for the future success of the game.

That wouldn't be out of the norm for Palladium's Robotech line though... the vast majority of those who actually bought it have never played it. They use it more like an unofficial encyclopedia, since RT's never produced an official reference work.

no, it says the signs were there for all who cared to look that this would go exactly like this. That is all.

'Palladium is such an untrustworthy company we shouldn't have given them money without expecting massive delays, terrible communications, and other shenanigans' isn't exactly a heartening sentiment.

"Man, wow, it is my fault, the writing was on the wall that these guys suck! What was I thinking?"

you can ignore their past release history and the fact they were near bankruptcy not all that long ago all you want. That just means you didn't do your research.

Jorel wrote:you can ignore their past release history and the fact they were near bankruptcy not all that long ago all you want. That just means you didn't do your research.

I'm pretty sure I've seen statements from them that they have mostly recovered from those losses.

Are you saying that this is untrue?

I'm saying it looks to me like they have a history of making poor business decisions and their release history being so far from the reality of what they think it should be is also very telling. Had anyone looked at their history as a company it would not give them confidence in investing in that KS.

Ah, so no second chances for you, and yet here you are, and yet a backer you are.

So you intentionally made a poor choice backing the Kickstarter? That doesn't seem very wise.

Larry A wrote:However, constant harping on how "you should have known", "if you'd really done your research", "well, you're an 'investor' and sometimes 'investments' don't work out", etc., etc., etc.; IOW, blaming the backers for having backed the project, pretty much boils down into one thing:

"shut up! PEASANTS and pay that money you pledged, we have to have it for the sake of the holy shining Palladium!"

Nope, that's definitely not my attitude... Jorel summed it up nicely, but to put my own spin on it, I can't imagine a valid excuse for not having seen this sort of problem brewing given the particular problems both of the prime movers behind the project are prone to... namely a tendency to over-promise and under-deliver and a casual disregard for announced delivery dates.

I mean, these are not secrets. In fact, some would argue that they're among the defining traits of the respective companies.

Forar wrote:'Palladium is such an untrustworthy company we shouldn't have given them money without expecting massive delays, terrible communications, and other shenanigans' isn't exactly a heartening sentiment.

"Man, wow, it is my fault, the writing was on the wall that these guys suck! What was I thinking?"

Eh... more like the upset backer should be saying to himself "Why was I willing to throw my money at this when I did not make myself aware of the risks involved or understand that the end result of the project is a goal, not a guarantee.

Some of the backers are reacting like Palladium sold them a Macross Bandai DX Chogokin and what arrived was a Toynami MPC.

As has been hashed out repeatedly, Palladium went on at length about how much work ND was putting into things, and how they were mostly helping with some rules testing and handling the license. We all knew they were involved, we didn't know that they'd become the sole point of contact and so busy that they has 1/3 of the company (err, 2 people) doing work on the project every single work day for an entire year with little to show for it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:I mean, these are not secrets. In fact, some would argue that they're among the defining traits of the respective companies.

Some of the backers are reacting like Palladium sold them a Macross Bandai DX Chogokin and what arrived was a Toynami MPC.

The first part is why I'm upset with PB/nd. I had some soda pop minis from one of their game lines. Their miniatures look like they stepped right out of of an anime. So I kinda was expecting bandai quality. Talk about egg on my face.lol

For the second now I now better. So either I don't back the next one or go in for only $20 instead. I'm not a fan of southern cross but this game will need other factions for it to survive.

Kryptt wrote:The first part is why I'm upset with PB/nd. I had some soda pop minis from one of their game lines. Their miniatures look like they stepped right out of of an anime. So I kinda was expecting bandai quality. Talk about egg on my face.lol

I wasn't all that impressed by what I saw on their website... it seemed more typical of the stuff that we see when American movies and TV shows try to throw mecha in. Big clunky egg-shaped walker with an anemic looking set of limbs. They look like those boring mecha from Avatar.

Kryptt wrote:For the second now I now better. So either I don't back the next one or go in for only $20 instead. I'm not a fan of southern cross but this game will need other factions for it to survive.

Well, I think a big part of the problem there has nothing to do with backers (directly)... the other 2/3 of Robotech are not remembered nearly as fondly (or, often, not remembered at all) as Macross. They opened with their strongest lineup, and it's all downhill from there. Especially considering that the other two's mecha merchandise are, according to other licensees, "not worth even trying" and "an abysmal failure" respectively.

(I actually consider the failure of the MOSPEADA based merch tragic, since I rather like that show and its designs.)

Larry A wrote:Give it up, they are deliberately ignoring anything that doesn't fit the "you invested, you are stupid, this is like real investments in the markets, so shut up and don't try to get your money back like any good little Palladium drone".

Actually, that's not true. I've repeatedly acknowledged that the backers have a right to be upset given that the project they backed has not, thus far, produced satisfactory results. I take exception to them claiming victim status for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to, the fact that the backing of Robotech RPG Tactics WAS an investment and a good investor is always aware of the risks involved and the possibility of failure. I haven't said anyone was stupid for investing in the game... though I'll admit I have said that blindly throwing money at a proposal isn't especially wise or clever, and loses you a right to sympathy when the result is exactly what anyone who looked into the respective track records from the parties involved would expect.

If the backers want their money back as an expression of their discontent, I say give it to them. Since they're owed merchandise, it's not like they're unsecured creditors. The problem with that is that you'd have to prove the issues with the game are their fault and demonstrate that they've not delivered what they promised... and that's a very tall order when the complaint is quality-based, and the timeline issues may not actually be their fault.

Larry A wrote:ROFLMAO, trust me, the timeline issues are ALL Palladium's fault.

Really, I'm not convinced that the timeline issues are entirely Palladium's fault.

While I don't doubt that some portion of the timeline issues are down to Palladium's involvement, my own experience with the people involved in Harmony Gold's side of the approvals process has me thinking that there's a significant portion of the deadline slippage can be attributed to Harmony Gold needing to run all the material produced for the game past their legal counsel and then through an unnecessarily byzantine and time-consuming management review.

For their own safety, Harmony Gold has to make sure that nothing in the game could be interpreted as a violation of Studio Nue and Big West's copyrights on the Macross IP. They can ill afford to have to defend against a copyright infringement lawsuit. Likewise, they have to ensure that nothing which goes into the game falls outside the scope of what their licensing agreement gives them permission to use for Robotech merchandise, for much the same reason. Then, of course, every layer of management in Harmony Gold that exists above the Robotech "creative" team will want to review and approve the material... because having input is much easier than doing actual work.

To give you an idea of how BAD the delays at Harmony Gold are... it was taking them MONTHS to get a news post FOR THEIR OWN WEBSITE through approvals. The creation of their Facebook page and their Twitter account were a desperate last gasp effort to sidestep some of the problems.

Larry A wrote:Was what was written on the Kickstarter true or not? If true, we should have seen boxes of sprues sitting at Palladium many months ago, if not, well, we all know what that is called. In either case, nobody there to catch the blame but Palladium.

I'm sure it was meant to be true... before various parties poked their oars in and so on. Excessive optimism WRT release dates is a hallmark of Harmony Gold and Palladium's business practices.

I think they are new to some of this and that is why they didn't know the extent of the time and money it would take. I think when he said we might actually see it in October 2013, that he actually believed those words as he typed them.

I have no doubt he also believed NG1 and 2 would be out by September 2012 as originally stated in the Insider campaigns. That's the problem.

Larry A wrote:Then Palladium shouldn't have taken the lead spot...although if rumor control is correct, it is taken over the lead spot, in this project.

IF so*, the question then becomes why did Palladium take the lead on this? Was it just the "powers that be" wanting to have more control over the project, or did Harmony Gold step in and say they wanted a first tier licensee managing this?

Larry A wrote:Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance.

... and achieves added alliterative appeal!


* Emphasis on the "if" for the benefit of the moderators.

I'm sure a big part of the unexpected time was also the fact they brought in so much more money. That meant more work and likely they felt the need to oversee it more and quite possibly HG had certain conditions we didn't know about.

Jorel wrote:I'm sure a big part of the unexpected time was also the fact they brought in so much more money. That meant more work and likely they felt the need to oversee it more and quite possibly HG had certain conditions we didn't know about.

something tells me other then the initial approvals HG doesn't really have any input into this project that Some "people" are implying.

I don't think they are approving stuff repeatedly, but I think a part of the delay could have been they didn't have those approvals before the KS wrapped and are now possibly just some of the ones that were experimental. Or maybe the VFs. Who knows. I hear HG is very controlling of the IP so I would imaging at least one copy of the renders of the final designs of each piece has to cross their desk at some point in the pre production process. PB doesn't have free reign to just put out stuff like the Super VEF-1 or whatever the holdup was.

Jorel wrote:I don't think they are approving stuff repeatedly, but I think a part of the delay could have been they didn't have those approvals before the KS wrapped and are now possibly just some of the ones that were experimental. Or maybe the VFs. Who knows. I hear HG is very controlling of the IP so I would imaging at least one copy of the renders of the final designs of each piece has to cross their desk at some point in the pre production process. PB doesn't have free reign to just put out stuff like the Super VEF-1 or whatever the holdup was.

oh you mean the hold up when Palladium "Forgot" to send the final approvals to China on the Veritech ? yeah wonder how much time was lost when Palladium dropped the ball there.

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'm sure a big part of the unexpected time was also the fact they brought in so much more money. That meant more work and likely they felt the need to oversee it more and quite possibly HG had certain conditions we didn't know about.

something tells me other then the initial approvals HG doesn't really have any input into this project that Some "people" are implying.

I'm vaguely curious why the word "people" ended up in quotation marks... is there some rumor going 'round that I'm an AI, or perhaps an extremely erudite badger?

Just from Palladium's own commentary WRT the RPG and Harmony Gold's own statements about wanting to keep licensees on a (proverbial) short leash to ensure the consistency and accuracy of their work (with an obvious ulterior motive of preventing them from doing anything that might provoke a lawsuit from Japan), I would have to say it would be extremely out of character for Harmony Gold to NOT insist upon reviewing a project like RRT in its final form before release. They've done it with the final manuscript version of every RPG book so far.

On a few occasions, Kevin has even been helpful enough to let us know when a manuscript has ended up at Harmony Gold for review, and IIRC there's been at least one case where they returned the manuscript with a list of required changes.

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I don't think they are approving stuff repeatedly, but I think a part of the delay could have been they didn't have those approvals before the KS wrapped and are now possibly just some of the ones that were experimental. Or maybe the VFs. Who knows. I hear HG is very controlling of the IP so I would imaging at least one copy of the renders of the final designs of each piece has to cross their desk at some point in the pre production process. PB doesn't have free reign to just put out stuff like the Super VEF-1 or whatever the holdup was.

oh you mean the hold up when Palladium "Forgot" to send the final approvals to China on the Veritech ? yeah wonder how much time was lost when Palladium dropped the ball there.

I haven't heard any mention of those needing to go to HG. it is possible, but they may have approved the renders and that may have been enough. Don't know the real ramifications to that delay.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Asterios wrote:

Jorel wrote:I'm sure a big part of the unexpected time was also the fact they brought in so much more money. That meant more work and likely they felt the need to oversee it more and quite possibly HG had certain conditions we didn't know about.

something tells me other then the initial approvals HG doesn't really have any input into this project that Some "people" are implying.

I'm vaguely curious why the word "people" ended up in quotation marks... is there some rumor going 'round that I'm an AI, or perhaps an extremely erudite badger?

Just from Palladium's own commentary WRT the RPG and Harmony Gold's own statements about wanting to keep licensees on a (proverbial) short leash to ensure the consistency and accuracy of their work (with an obvious ulterior motive of preventing them from doing anything that might provoke a lawsuit from Japan), I would have to say it would be extremely out of character for Harmony Gold to NOT insist upon reviewing a project like RRT in its final form before release. They've done it with the final manuscript version of every RPG book so far.

On a few occasions, Kevin has even been helpful enough to let us know when a manuscript has ended up at Harmony Gold for review, and IIRC there's been at least one case where they returned the manuscript with a list of required changes.

He has made no mentions of anything like that recently. Nothing has been sent to HG for approval in a while now from the info given in the Press Releases. They have a history of working together and that means they may have more leeway than other licensees.

Jorel wrote:He has made no mentions of anything like that recently. Nothing has been sent to HG for approval in a while now from the info given in the Press Releases.

At this juncture I'd point out two things...

The first is that the "Murmurs" and other updates are far from a detailed and comprehensive source of info about the current state of affairs. (I know, preaching to the choir...)

The second is that if there hasn't been any mention of sending things out for approvals, one of two things could be true... either they haven't finalized enough material for it to be worth submitting to Harmony Gold to review (shipping is expensive), or what little they have has already been approved and therefore you're not going to see any improvement in quality.

Jorel wrote:They have a history of working together and that means they may have more leeway than other licensees.

Both Harmony Gold and Palladium's own comments on this suggest that, while they do have a history, it does not afford them additional leeway and that Harmony Gold is actively interested in ensuring that its licensees are producing material that it considers "acceptable". Indeed, because Palladium's books have been pretty much the sum total of new Robotech development, the reverse is likely true... they've probably been under tighter scrutiny than usual.

They thought having the renders done was 98% of the work. I think that may be the source of that one. I found something out recently that verified exactly what I said in your quote above. I'm not gonna share but it made me more firm in my belief that is for sure. Solid as a rock firm. They are in over their head and rely on ND for all info in relation to this endeavor. If ND said we could have this job out in October 2013, then Kevin types that and hits send without thought of repurcussions...at the time. If ND says they can only do something a certain way, PB has to believe that. They really don't have a choice. They cannot hire an outside group like ND to follow and question all of ND decisions to make sure everything they are told by ND is legit. They really do have to trust whatever ND says. Kevin's fault is releasing that info to the general public. He should have researched the current minis industry but if he doesn't think pdf is a viable option how do you think he perceives researching on a computer. Prolly pretty daunting.

Jorel wrote:They are in over their head and rely on ND for all info in relation to this endeavor. If ND said we could have this job out in October 2013, then Kevin types that and hits send without thought of repurcussions...at the time. If ND says they can only do something a certain way, PB has to believe that. They really don't have a choice. They cannot hire an outside group like ND to follow and question all of ND decisions to make sure everything they are told by ND is legit. They really do have to trust whatever ND says. Kevin's fault is releasing that info to the general public. He should have researched the current minis industry but if he doesn't think pdf is a viable option how do you think he perceives researching on a computer. Prolly pretty daunting.

If that's true then ND should hang along with PB for screwing things up bad. I mean before the ks started I had some anima tactics figs and they were great. But how nd or PB let the mechs be turned into tiny parts with so many of them is beyond me. ND is still involved and they should be held accountable like PB. After all there the experts. If things are this slow with RRT it could be because nd is busy working on everybody else's work but the RRT models. Sigh

I'm pretty sure ND was involved in at least 2 other KS campaigns I dealt with...Mega Man the Board Game and Games & Gears Battle Boards. I know they have recently had, maybe having right now their own KS. I imagine they may have their hands in too many things right now and RRT is getting the short end of the stick. I wouldn't ND to sit idly by while waiting on PB's every whim, but I would expect to give them a priority on on some level. And if they are waiting on packages to ship from China then ND should be working on other people's projects. Pretty sure Wayne recently said it was his fault for not checking progress on a recent delay. Not sure how something like that washed out, but it doesn't sound like ND to me.

Soda Pop Miniatures was involved with Relic Knights, and while that one had massive (roughly 1 year?) delays, assuming they actually make delivery in the near future as is currently being stated, at least the models don't seem to come in 20+ pieces, so at least some of their personnel are capable of doing original work* without that kind of piece count.

*Let's not get started on the 'it was the only way possible with those old designs!' argument. I'm stating that they simply seem capable of doing nicely detailed models without absurd parts counts, that's it.

So, it might be ND, but we have other examples of their work that make it appear to not be the standard at which they work (same with the seam complaints; I'm sure they're not all perfect, but I'm not seeing a ton of terrible seams in the pics they're showing off, which could be through better assembly/careful trimming/gap filling/priming/painting, or even just selective photography).

That was my point as well. We are more like investors in this case.

Nightfactory wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Ultimately, the Kickstarter's backers are not victims by any stretch of the imagination. If you invest in a company and you get burned on your investment because you had unrealistic expectations or you didn't bother to do your research beforehand, the only person you have to blame is yourself.

Well stated. I think this is especially true for people who are already familiar with Palladium and it's history of slow project development. But whether or not someone is familiar with the company's history, the decision to invest is that of the investor; nobody forced their hand.

Once I saw a homeless guy in Chicago on the street with a sign saying he needed money "to get back home for thanksgiving" so I gave him $5. Almost a year later, I saw the same guy with the same sign. Does that make me a "victim"? No, because I willingly gave him the money.

The "victim" argument being used here holds the implication that the buyer has absolutely no responsibility and puts all the blame on the seller. That's not how it is in real life. If someone makes a blind investment (as I did with the street guy), they might get burned and it stinks if that happens. But nobody who voluntarily forks over their dough on a investment can later claim they were 'victimized' unless there is evidence of criminal intent in the seller. Obviously that is not the case here.

Are serious!lmaol So you'd rather troll this thread and blame the backers for PB incompetence.lol. Your a real piece of work there guy. Your not the only fanboy giving that weak excuse. You'd do PB a favor if you didn't enable them so much. Many backers were told ND were doing the lions share of the work. Now PB has taken over and this project is going downhill fast. I don't put all the blame on PB or even Kevin himself, ND and HG should share in it as well.

I don't see myself as a victim but I do wish I had know about how PB is late with everything they say there putting out.

He is saying both parties are responsible. No one made people give Palladium money to Kickstart the RRT. And anyone giving money away should likely research how it will be spent if they care. If they don't then they should be cool to give blindly not expect results. Yes, PB is at fault, but the backers who didn't research have their share of the blame in their own unhappiness.

Nightfactory wrote:

Kryptt wrote:Are serious!lmaol So you'd rather troll this thread and blame the backers for PB incompetence.lol. Your a real piece of work there guy.

Love your selective ethics, my friend. If someone agrees with you, they're a 'good guy', but if they disagree then they are a 'troll'.
Using that argument, you are a 'troll' too, dear sir.

Your not the only fanboy giving that weak excuse.

I'm not a fanboy; I'm a realist. Nor is it an excuse. If anybody is making an excuse, it is you and those those who blindly forked over cash for a very ambitious project that is clearly beyond the scope of Palladium's normal work. Palladium has a very long history of having a difficult time meeting production goals. Anyone who is remotely familiar with the company should know this. So it should come as no surprise whatsoever that the RRT project would be any different.

If you don't do your research, or got onboard with pie-in-the-sky expectations, who is to blame for that? You are.

I never said those who don't agree with me are trolls. In fact some of those I disagree with have made some valid points about RRT. It's just this excuse keeps coming up and after a while it loses it's point. You can call me a troll all you want but I've noticed that PB fans will start a flame war just to get threads closed. So if anything it's the hard core fanboys who are trolls. So please keep on trolling my friend, your doing wonders for PB by proving all the dirt about PB true. You do know your defending a company who's owner doesn't have a problem insulting some of there loyal fans.

Please let it go. We are all pent up and bent because of the delays. Whether it is a little or a lot there is a lot of negative energy going on. Maybe drop the insulting comments and talk about something productive and if you don't have anything invested in RRT you likely cannot relate to the aggravation that goes with the waiting. So how about talking about constructive things we can do about the unrest eh? Great. I'd prefer that before someone gets a warning for getting heated about something silly.

Kryptt wrote:In fact some of those I disagree with have made some valid points about RRT.

Under most circumstances, agreeing with someone you generally disagree with is a pretty high compliment to the strength of the argument. It's easy to agree with people you like, it's much harder to openly agree with someone you think is a jerk.

... though sometimes it backfires. >.>

I think most of us agree here. Maybe not about who is ultimately to blame or what we'd like done, but we can agree where we see a problem that needs fixing.

If you are concerned about the delay and it is a surprise to you, then you didn't research who you were blindly giving money to. You have much of the responsibility as well as PB. They are doing business as usual right now. A little research would have shown anyone they suck at deadlines.

Larry A wrote:Any "you should have known"/"well, it's an investment" defences are jokes...it's like saying that because the restaurant served you something different than you ordered from the menu, that it's your fault for not going into the kitchen and cooking it yourself.

Eh... this smacks of a faulty analogy, IMO.

To amend your restaurant analogy, what the backers did would be like going to a restaurant and telling the waitress to bring you something with chicken in it... and then getting upset when they bring you a plate of chicken fingers instead of the bowl of chicken tortellini soup a little later than you'd have liked. All you had actually ordered was something with chicken in it, so you have very little right to complain unless what you got was fundamentally unfit for human consumption.

You gave them your money on the sole condition that they deliver a Robotech tabletop game. There were no promises that the game would be on a level of quality competitive with industry front-runners and the issues with lateness and quality among the partners are so well-known that there are virtually no valid excuses for having not been aware beforehand. All you were promised in exchange for your donation was the delivery of a Robotech tabletop game.

This is not a contract for an existing product... this is the backers funding the development of a product that didn't exist yet. They bear the same risk as a regular investor, that the product they've funded the development of will turn out to be something different from what they expected. As long as the product they delivers meets the letter of what they promised (number and type of models), they've lived up to their end of the agreement.

I don't understand. If someone here has a grip with PB and wants to vent, why not let him? Why continue to attack him. He and many backers are not happy with PB and he has every right to be upset. All of you enablers are only reinforceing the negative pr that PB smothers itself in. I know I'll be jumped on too for this post and my message will be ignored because I'll just be dumped as a silly cabal member. I notice whenever people post on here it has to be what feels like praises for PB. I know my post will probably get picked apart and argued against, but many of you "fan-friends" are driving away potential new customers and extra money in PB coffers.

If the game takes of then we backers are only the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the wargaming community is the same. When they migrate here it'll be locked threads all over the place and the negative pr of PB will continue. Only this time it'll be worse because now the whole gaming community will be talking about. Heck their talking about it now on several online forums.

Well thank you and G'night.

Palladium has responsibility in this issue, but so do we as backers. That is the point being made. Anyone who wants to act like an abused victim has a right to point out where PB has harshed them and most of us would agree. But this was predictable and anyone that missed that fact has themselves to blame for throwing away money. Plain and simple. If you didn't look at their history as a company and bought into this cause you saw the name Robotech you deserve to be upset...with yourself as well as Palladium. People need to grow up and own their part of the responsibility. PB needs to do that as well.

I jumped in because I loved the PB RT RPG books when I was a teen and I love macross even more. That's why I jumped into the ks. I like a great many others didn't know about PB lack of competence. I saw ND and thought they make pretty good miniatures. Then for me like for many others I saw the vf breakdown and thought this doesn't seem right. It got much, much worse when Wayne showed the spartan. It's not only backers that are calling PB one of the worst gaming companies it's a lot of folks who RPG or wargame.

I don't feel like a victim but I do feel supremely let down by PB.

Kryptt wrote:I don't understand. If someone here has a grip with PB and wants to vent, why not let him? Why continue to attack him. He and many backers are not happy with PB and he has every right to be upset. [...]

There's no "attacking" going on here... and the backers do have a right to be upset about the way both Palladium and Ninja Division have handled the Kickstarter. However, a number of people do feel that the backers are not justified in these hysterical threats of legal action and paranoid rumor-mongering over a largely imagined set of offenses and their own unrealistic expectations.

Kryptt wrote:I notice whenever people post on here it has to be what feels like praises for PB. I know my post will probably get picked apart and argued against, but many of you "fan-friends" are driving away potential new customers and extra money in PB coffers.

Actually, Kryptt... you'll find it's the substantial amount of negative press being generated by the backers who somehow thought this project would be exempt from Palladium's usual problems with hitting release date targets, or would be of top-shelf quality despite being made by companies that aren't even close to being front-runners in their industry and are mostly industry virgins, is going to be an enormous negative factor in the game's survival.

Who's going to buy the game if you're all preemptively telling the world how the backers all got ripped off and the game's completely unplayable because the miniatures suck? The message the unwarranted, and unduly exaggerated, complaints send is that the game is garbage. People will still buy the game if it has some issues but is otherwise serviceable. People won't buy the game if everyone says it's garbage.

Kryptt wrote:If the game takes of then we backers are only the tip of the iceberg.

There won't be any more to that iceberg if you preemptively drive everyone away by telling them that it's unbuildable, unplayable garbage because it doesn't conform to some imagined standard the backers were never promised or because it was delivered late... even though almost every Kickstarter is delivered late.

Kryptt wrote:That's why I jumped into the ks. I like a great many others didn't know about PB lack of competence.

That's why any good investor does a little research about the company he's investing in before throwing money at it. You'll get no sympathy for making a decision based on ignorance when you complain that you got burned.

Delays in a vastly overfunded KS are common, but it goes a long way when the company behind the KS acknowledges that there will be delays and sets up at least believable deadlines. Honesty goes a long way in keeping backers satisfied. Sadly PB made it their business model to lie about release dates to their customers.

I am a backer on a different KS, which was supposed to come out last year, roughly same as RRT. While their updates are not regular (2-4 weeks between updates), they keep the backers informed what's going on, and they offer some insight into the product they are doing. Things like "We are now working on X and Y, and playtesting Z. Here is a sample from one of the rules sections we are now working on. Or here is an excerpt from the fiction we are writing for this project. Or that the project will be delayed because of this, that or the other." Sure, some of the backers are unhappy, but for the most part they see that what they are waiting for is being worked on, why it is taking so long, and they get to see bits and pieces of the finished product.

Instead all we are seeing is designers talking about how awesome this thing is going to be, and that there are delays for some reasons. I don't care what you think about your game, talk is very cheap as far as PB is concerned. Show me how awesome the game is, don't tell me. While those familiar with PB practices are not surprised by the delays, this being a KS, it brings people from outside the PB fan base. There are a lot of people who are Robotech fans, but not PB fans. With a public (not in house) crowdfunding project PB is airing out their dirty laundry for all to see, and general public does not like what they are seeing.

However good the game might be, it must overcome its first impression, which is not good. It must also overcome PBs name on it, as that name is enough for stores not to carry the product. And then, there must be post release support. I am not talking about later eras, I am talking about demos, tournament support, timely releases of new product. Good luck with that.

yanko128 wrote:Delays in a vastly overfunded KS are common, but it goes a long way when the company behind the KS acknowledges that there will be delays and sets up at least believable deadlines. Honesty goes a long way in keeping backers satisfied. Sadly PB made it their business model to lie about release dates to their customers.

While I do firmly believe they lied about the 98% done and going to production within 45 days proclamations, I don't think they lied about the current release date which is officially "definitely June"... which is probably worse and shows additional problems at Palladium beyond just the initial inability to communicate the truth about their progress. Changing the date from Feb to June back in January along with split shipping lessening the actual amount of product was a believable deadline. The problem is that apparently almost nothing about what caused the delay in the first place changed prior to the new deadline being set and since. They set the new believable deadline and then continued their same flawed business as usual routine that resulted in the delay in the first place. Just to clarify, I'm not just talking about PB but also ND which has effectively disowned there biggest project to date in favor of only hawking their new shinies as well as the one they own completely themselves after buying out CMON. Both companies are likely significantly at fault with a smaller dose of delay blame on HG and *insert chinese factory here* as minority contributors. With so many missed delivery dates and blown "reserved factory time", the robotech project likely isn't a priority any more over in china and the factory is likely just squeezing the work in whenever they have time. Obviously the preceeding is just conjecture much like most of the info on the first page of the Kickstarter including the various backsliding delivery dates and promises so YMMV.