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Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:37 pm**

Oh, on a related note, when people go 'Rifts is a Post-Apocalypse setting', that's true only in a very technical sense. It's centuries since the Cataclysm occurred, there are city/states and nations all over the Earth, the world has recovered and is much closer to a Wild West level with scattered pockets of civilization all over the place with larger nations having risen from the ashes. It's actually NOT a 'right after the end' Death World with everything trying to kill everything else and trying to do so all the time.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:40 pm**

cosmicfish wrote:The real issue is due diligence - at what point has one individual taken adequate steps to verify that killing another is justified?

Well-said.

The CS lumps in so many groups under one label that it's not rare to find CS soldiers who will kill Cactus People or Kraks or Fennodi on general principle, and the CS simply assumed that the demons trying to kill Kremin (a usually-good species!) must've been the Kremin's rebellous slaves and proof of their evil. D'norr Devilman are noted to be high on the extermination list, despite being mostly peaceful, overwhelmingly good, widely disliked by actual evil beings, and while a lot of them study magic they have no actual innate magic abilities. They're just humanoids with horns who like to study.

When in doubt, they default to 'evil, best to eliminate them on purpose,' even with species where even relatively brief interaction with will tell you are no worse than humans, and extended interaction with- and some of these have been around for centuries.

It's often not just that they don't check, but they actively assume the worst interpretation.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:45 pm**

Jorick wrote:There was another thread on these forums discussing why the CS is pretty much ignorant of most of the continent beyond the Domain of Man, given how fast their stuff can fly.

That ignorance cannot extend to a basic understanding of morality outside the CS, nor can it extend to their own records. This is pretty basic stuff.

Jorick wrote:In the books, very often it is noted that long distance patrols tend to not make it back. That is, the life expectancy of a squad of SAMAS (nothing to sneeze at, power-wise), or better, is a matter of hours in the wilderness. And they're not hunting anything. Just looking.

I would also like to see the reference on this one.

Jorick wrote:They, and the Vamp Kingdoms, and the Xiticix, the simvan, psystalker tribes, some of the Native Americans might be aggressively protective enough to be the same difference, Pecos bandits, other bandit groups (that one in New West?), Grim Reapers, Barbarians in the East, Splugorth Outposts, Mechanoids (and other random, yet probably frequent, occurrences), Calgary, any village lorded over by an evil dragon, necromancer, demon, etc. etc.

As another noted, that is a very interesting list that manages to completely miss a ton of legitimate governments while recognizing bandit groups and groups where humans have no say in the leadership.

Jorick wrote:Maybe the difficulty is in the word "justifies." It's wrong, what the CS does. But they're in a really crappy situation. That can be understood. And worked with.

How??? What realistic options for "working with" the CS exists? How many millions of lives do those options cost?

Jorick wrote:Plato is an ancient great horned dragon. He's almost invincible (one of the most powerful beings in the megaverse, a small step below a God). He can change how he looks. He can control your mind. He can pretend to be good or whatever he wants for his own purposes, and if the results are bad for him, he can just leave the dimension on a whim and start over somewhere else. No consequences at all. How do you trust such a thing?

By trusting him. Really, is that any worse than trusting some totalitarian dictator with a massive military, genetic engineering labs, and an army of enslaved psychic warriors? Plato hasn't done half what any Prosek has done, if you can trust the latter but not the former then you're xenophobic, not rational!

Jorick wrote:I've been trying to explain that. That's pretty much all I've been trying to explain. If you can understand that even "evil" nations do some good, and, more to the point, that "good" nations do some evil, than you can understand that humans do what humans do. This is different than demons doing what demons do. The CS is weak, in mral fiber and other ways, the way humans tend to be. Hence they are inherently not the "evil" of greatest import.

First of all, the existence of "always evil" or "always good" races does not change the scale of morality. Before the coming of the rifts, there were evil humans and good humans and in-between/selfish humans. Adding demons and supernatural predators doesn't magically mean that there are now only in-between/selfish humans just because there are more than just humans filling up the evil and good ends of the spectrum. It just means that the evil and good ones have more company!

Second, if any given race truly is "always evil" then it lacks a full range of free will, and without free will, how can there be morality? If "good" demons are not possible then what we think of as morality cannot apply to them - they are not sentient, they are essentially animals that happen to talk.

Jorick wrote:Rather, being "good" to humans means recognizing they make (sometimes horrible) mistakes, and they have to be worked with. Some evils are unworkable, and therefore greater. The CS, for all its faults, helps the good mission ultimately more than it hurts the good mission.

The CS commits massive and unnecessary acts of evil on a routine basis, at the expense of a great many peaceful and good beings who have no intention of attacking. If I sat on my front porch with an M-60 and hosed down everyone who passed by I might well kill some bad people, and would arguably be keeping my family safer, but I would also kill a lot of innocent people and no one would call me anything but a bad guy.

Jorick wrote:There was advocacy of retaliation, yes. I think it was Nightmask (maybe someone else? it was a while ago) who was using the dropping of nuclear bombs on Japan as an example of justified retaliation. There was a lot of discussion of what Lazlo should have done. There was discussion of how Tolkeen was right to stand and fight, rather than move.

That discussion is relevant. Is the CS so evil that it requires retaliation (or even genocide) like the demons and Xiticix do? If the answer is no, then we can use that as evidence that the CS is not the baddest of bad guys, and that they should be treated differently. For these reasons and for others discussed.

Retaliation and genocide are not the only options available. And while demons and the Xiticix may require such actions, the scope of damage inflicted by each group is more relevant than the percentage that must be killed. The Xiticix are a bigger problem than the CS, but not by much and no solution exists for them yet. Personally, I would think that the remaining powers of NA need to engineer some radical regime change in the CS, I do not see any realistic scenario where they "grow out of this" without expending more lives than that regime change would take.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:18 pm**

I think not making the CS more than just a bad guy is taking away from the potential of the story. It's a potential that I think is intentionally written into the books. It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

The denizens of Lazlo are lucky they got a benevolent dragon, one who suffered nothing, to help them and coax them into a civilization that is good. Most did not fair so well, and the lucky ones among them are led by those who have suffered too (or their progeny). Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Maybe the paranoia helped those misbegotten sufferers survive. It certainly seems like it, if only because of the amount of them that survived. Maybe now that they've survived, it's up to the good people to help them turn a new page. Because maybe without them, no one survives the Minion War, or the next major invasion on their own terms (without having to beg the Splugorth or something).

Why take that tension out of the story? Why not let your players learnt hat the guys behind the mask are scared? Maybe they can avoid killing the soldiers, help them. Maybe they can try to strike a deal with officers to save a village in danger of being attacked by a demon. Maybe the officer will betray them. Maybe he wont.

I have a scenario for a campaign in the Minion War I'd love to play out. It revolves around the hell pit in New Mexico (the one with Death etc.). The players would likely at least be part of a mercenary company I have devised as a backstory for many things, but maybe they're just on their own. Regardless, they can't take on this hell pit alone, even with a considerable force. It's tens of thousands of demons (along with everything else that comes with a hell pit). The point of the campaign would not be to defeat the demons. Rather, the point is to alert forces capable of doing something about it that the hell pit is there (also to learn the unique nature of the hell pit--which keeps it more secretive than others).

There are few forces in the area that could do anything. Maybe the vampires, or Reid's Rangers, but they're locked in war with each other. The denizens of Colorado and further north have Calgary to contend with. Arzno, and the Lynn Srial are the most obvious, and they should be involved, but they do not have the numbers to hope to match. The Shadow Warriors (I think I remember the name correctly, the Splugorth mercenaries), would be around, and interested for Splugorth reasons.

But the only force in the area capable of matching those demons is Lone Star. The characters HAVE to convince the CS to trust them. To turn forces away from other hell pits and towards potentially THE most dangerous one of all. They have to coordinate with other forces. Etc. Etc.

Perhaps the CS is too stubborn, too foolish, to trust our heroes. But then all is truly lost. Game over.

The CS, at least those in Lone Star for this scenario, MUST come around for there to be a win. If the characters go into it with the idea that the CS is just evil, there is little they will be able to do to convince the CS to do the right thing. They have to be able to understand that there is a way to convince the CS to do the right thing.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:43 pm**

Jorick wrote:They, and the Vamp Kingdoms, and the Xiticix, the simvan, psystalker tribes, some of the Native Americans might be aggressively protective enough to be the same difference, Pecos bandits, other bandit groups (that one in New West?), Grim Reapers, Barbarians in the East, Splugorth Outposts, Mechanoids (and other random, yet probably frequent, occurrences), Calgary, any village lorded over by an evil dragon, necromancer, demon, etc. etc.

What did the psistalkers do that's so bad? A lot of them prefer to focus on foes like Xiticix, who aren't really a kingdom, or other hostile supernaturals. I guess some tribes are bad, but it varies a lot and plenty are good.

Some Native Americans are militantly isolationist, but I've heard of none who go out and do raids or conquests like the CS does. They tend to just stick to one territory and protect it strongly.

Bandits, Grim Reapers, barbarians, Xiticix, and Calgary aren't really governments, so much as roving threats everyone has to deal with, good or bad. Mechanoids aren't even currently on Earth, they just had a brief incursion that Archie largely dealt with.

Better governments than the CS, from my view, include the Colorado Baronies, the various Native tribes (all of them, I'd say, and there's a good number, about a dozen), the Lyn-Srial, the Cyberhorsemen of Ixion, Lazlo, New Lazlo, most of the other human kingdoms like Kingsdale and Arzno and MercTown, most of the cities in the magic zone like Psyscape, Magestar, Dweomer, and Stormspire, and Archie 3/Shemarrian territory for good measure.

Some of which are small and weak, a number of which are pretty substantial, but the list of North American governments, as opposed to random threats, that are worse than the CS is pretty short.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:13 pm**

Jorick wrote:I think not making the CS more than just a bad guy is taking away from the potential of the story. It's a potential that I think is intentionally written into the books. It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

The denizens of Lazlo are lucky they got a benevolent dragon, one who suffered nothing, to help them and coax them into a civilization that is good. Most did not fair so well, and the lucky ones among them are led by those who have suffered too (or their progeny). Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Maybe the paranoia helped those misbegotten sufferers survive. It certainly seems like it, if only because of the amount of them that survived. Maybe now that they've survived, it's up to the good people to help them turn a new page. Because maybe without them, no one survives the Minion War, or the next major invasion on their own terms (without having to beg the Splugorth or something).

Why take that tension out of the story? Why not let your players learnt hat the guys behind the mask are scared?

Sure you can alter the setting and change what is written to be different than the official setting sure.
You can house rule a change that alters the CS from actively, willingly evil to 'just scared and ignorant of the harm they do' sure.....
But that is not the written setting. That may apply to a small subset of the soldiers....
But the leadership is explicitly, and repeatedly laid out time and time again as calculatingly evil. As deliberately and knowingly causing death and suffering for others as a means to cement their own power.
There is no way what so ever to portray THAT as anything but evil.

Jorick wrote:Maybe they can avoid killing the soldiers, help them. Maybe they can try to strike a deal with officers to save a village in danger of being attacked by a demon. Maybe the officer will betray them. Maybe he wont.

I have a scenario for a campaign in the Minion War I'd love to play out. It revolves around the hell pit in New Mexico (the one with Death etc.). The players would likely at least be part of a mercenary company I have devised as a backstory for many things, but maybe they're just on their own. Regardless, they can't take on this hell pit alone, even with a considerable force. It's tens of thousands of demons (along with everything else that comes with a hell pit). The point of the campaign would not be to defeat the demons. Rather, the point is to alert forces capable of doing something about it that the hell pit is there (also to learn the unique nature of the hell pit--which keeps it more secretive than others).

There are few forces in the area that could do anything. Maybe the vampires, or Reid's Rangers, but they're locked in war with each other. The denizens of Colorado and further north have Calgary to contend with. Arzno, and the Lynn Srial are the most obvious, and they should be involved, but they do not have the numbers to hope to match. The Shadow Warriors (I think I remember the name correctly, the Splugorth mercenaries), would be around, and interested for Splugorth reasons.

But the only force in the area capable of matching those demons is Lone Star. The characters HAVE to convince the CS to trust them. To turn forces away from other hell pits and towards potentially THE most dangerous one of all. They have to coordinate with other forces. Etc. Etc.

Perhaps the CS is too stubborn, too foolish, to trust our heroes. But then all is truly lost. Game over.

The CS, at least those in Lone Star for this scenario, MUST come around for there to be a win. If the characters go into it with the idea that the CS is just evil, there is little they will be able to do to convince the CS to do the right thing. They have to be able to understand that there is a way to convince the CS to do the right thing.

Okay fine....you can set up a narrative situation in your game that hinges on the PCs using your custom house ruled changes to the meta-morality of the world.
More power to you. That does not change though how the setting is actually written, just how you want to have them be in your game.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:43 pm**

i wouldn't say that describing the CS as evil requires that most of humanity throughout history be evil.

it would require an awful lot of national governments to be more or less evil, with mostly selfish subjects, however. which makes a lot more sense than most of humanity being actively evil.

having said that, the vast majority of humanity seemed to be able to figure out that slaughtering civilians indiscriminately was wrong without any special prompting. we've formalized that into international law today, and certainly have less tolerance for it than at any previous point in history, but most of the time when you hear about particularly fearsome armies, the things that make them well-known for being not very nice are the kinds of things the CS does to their enemies (total extermination, targeting civilians, etc).

this is not to say that other nations' armies didn't do awful things (rape, plundering, destruction of property, enslavement, etc), but as far as "slaughtering everyone without exceptions", that's the sort of behaviour that gets you singled out as being a particularly awful group of people, and actually is not all *that* common.

that said, i do agree that it takes something away from the setting to make the CS anything less than a human evil. like i said, their actions are very understandable... they just aren't good.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:55 pm**

Whether you're killed by a lesser or a greater evil...you're still dead. Small consolation if you're killed by somebody who's convinced he's doing the right thing in killing you because he sees you as a threat, or being killed by somebody who really wants to see you die for plain fun.
Either way, tread carefully around people with a track record for killing other people and who will try to kill you.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:11 pm**

Shark_Force wrote:i wouldn't say that describing the CS as evil requires that most of humanity throughout history be evil.

it would require an awful lot of national governments to be more or less evil, with mostly selfish subjects, however. which makes a lot more sense than most of humanity being actively evil.

having said that, the vast majority of humanity seemed to be able to figure out that slaughtering civilians indiscriminately was wrong without any special prompting. we've formalized that into international law today, and certainly have less tolerance for it than at any previous point in history, but most of the time when you hear about particularly fearsome armies, the things that make them well-known for being not very nice are the kinds of things the CS does to their enemies (total extermination, targeting civilians, etc).

this is not to say that other nations' armies didn't do awful things (rape, plundering, destruction of property, enslavement, etc), but as far as "slaughtering everyone without exceptions", that's the sort of behaviour that gets you singled out as being a particularly awful group of people, and actually is not all *that* common.

Rome was generally nicer in it's conquests. And let's not forget that even while technically at 'peace,' it effectively is raiding many of it's neighbors constantly, provided said neighbors include D-bees or mages.

that said, i do agree that it takes something away from the setting to make the CS anything less than a human evil. like i said, their actions are very understandable... they just aren't good.

Right, they are far from the only nation to act that way in history, and there are some worse still.

The Aztecs raided their neighbors often to obtain human sacrifices.

And Assyria? Yikes! Those people were scary.

Spartans as well.

They're evil, but they are an understandable human evil, who's actions have killed large numbers of innocents and good people and will kill many more unless their course is changed.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:40 pm**

Jorick wrote:I think not making the CS more than just a bad guy is taking away from the potential of the story. It's a potential that I think is intentionally written into the books.

Yes, it is, but that potential that exists for just about every villain out there. The CS is special because they are the main human villain, a potential for redemption but also a stunning example of the potential for evil in ordinary humanity. No one is trying to take that potential away, no one is trying to say that there are not good elements, all we are trying to say is that their current (and likely future) status is one of evil.

Oh, and Germany had a lot of potential too. It was realized by defeating them military and then killing or imprisoning those leaders that weren't already dead when we got to them. Is there any reason to think that a fictional government modeled on the Third Reich would not realize its own potential through a similar process?

Jorick wrote:It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

I have a lot of problems with that adjudication. I just asked my museum curator wife what she thought of your statement, and she categorically disagreed with it. Almost all cultures have a level of morality that they're comfortable calling good, otherwise they would take steps to change it! And even still, the kinds of behaviors that you are describing were notable exceptions, not standard, morally acceptable practices!

Jorick wrote:Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Perhaps because the original Chi-Town was not nearly as bad, and the worst transgressions are only a few generations old? I am not sure if there is a canon history of Chi-Town other than the comments of Erin Tarn, but in the century since the Coming of the Rifts she considers the Prosek dynasty to be a NEW evil. They don't have to invent, they could just ask their grandparents.

And again, my point is not that this type of evil is not understandable - it is, is was modeled on the very real evil of the Third Reich - my point is just that it is in fact evil.

Jorick wrote:Why take that tension out of the story? Why not let your players learnt hat the guys behind the mask are scared? Maybe they can avoid killing the soldiers, help them. Maybe they can try to strike a deal with officers to save a village in danger of being attacked by a demon. Maybe the officer will betray them. Maybe he wont.

I don't think you take it out, I think you use it as intended. Most of the CS military is bad enough to be obvious villains. If you want to write an adventure where some soldiers are seeing some truth and realizing the immorality of their orders and masters, nothing is stopping you, and indeed, there are published works out there that do that very thing to some extent or another. But that doesn't need to and shouldn't be every adventure. The CS offers plenty of irredeemably evil soldiers around the conflicted ones that you cherish so much, and I see no problem with PC's offing them when they have demonstrated their character.

Jorick wrote:I have a scenario for a campaign in the Minion War I'd love to play out... But the only force in the area capable of matching those demons is Lone Star...

Then do that. But if it is that bad a problem then there are likely many other powers that will play into things, like from big formal groups like Lazlo and Larsen's Brigade and the JLA to informal groups like the one that formed in Africa to fight the Four Horsemen. If you want to contrive that Lone Star is the only reasonable opponent, then do so, but don't expect me to buy it. And as a player, don't expect me to go to Lone Star while there is still a possibility that the old guy in the village might possibly be an ancient dragon or such.

Come to think of it, I might try and draw the CS into it in the hopes that they will be severely weakened, but not out of anything shared between us. Maybe invite the JLA in to clean up whatever CS troops survive the battle.

And wouldn't this be an excellent task for Tolkeen to handle? Oops?

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:23 pm**

The CS is still in Imperium of Man mode. They act like it's M41 and the daemons are subverting them from the inside, causing the race to fracture.

Now if we could get the idiots who they're killing to stop summoning said daemons, they might relax a bit. Not to say its the mage's fault. From the perspective of many here, magic users seem to be the victim, and blaming the victim isn't really a solution.

I would propose greasing the emperor, but that isn't something that's going to end well, and isn't a moral, good guy path to victory.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:25 pm**

cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

I have a lot of problems with that adjudication. I just asked my museum curator wife what she thought of your statement, and she categorically disagreed with it. Almost all cultures have a level of morality that they're comfortable calling good, otherwise they would take steps to change it! And even still, the kinds of behaviors that you are describing were notable exceptions, not standard, morally acceptable practices!

Standards that they consider good, yes. Not standards that we consider good. Very common "exceptions." Remember, as we researched earlier in the thread, the concept of "genocide" wasn't even created until middle of the 20th century. Maybe people didn't like the idea of murder or killing in general, but that often stopped when dealing with an "other." Killings lots of another kind of person was often considered a good thing. It still is in many cases.

cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Perhaps because the original Chi-Town was not nearly as bad, and the worst transgressions are only a few generations old? I am not sure if there is a canon history of Chi-Town other than the comments of Erin Tarn, but in the century since the Coming of the Rifts she considers the Prosek dynasty to be a NEW evil. They don't have to invent, they could just ask their grandparents.

And again, my point is not that this type of evil is not understandable - it is, is was modeled on the very real evil of the Third Reich - my point is just that it is in fact evil.

As I keep saying, there are very significant differences between the CS and the Nazis. The "reality" of the monsters they fight being the most significant. The fact that a subordinate general is afraid of having his attempt at genocide being discovered another. Certainly, given the confines of what was considered "good" by many of the peoples your museum friend studies, the CS is within bounds.

cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:I have a scenario for a campaign in the Minion War I'd love to play out... But the only force in the area capable of matching those demons is Lone Star...

Then do that. But if it is that bad a problem then there are likely many other powers that will play into things, like from big formal groups like Lazlo and Larsen's Brigade and the JLA to informal groups like the one that formed in Africa to fight the Four Horsemen. If you want to contrive that Lone Star is the only reasonable opponent, then do so, but don't expect me to buy it. And as a player, don't expect me to go to Lone Star while there is still a possibility that the old guy in the village might possibly be an ancient dragon or such.

Come to think of it, I might try and draw the CS into it in the hopes that they will be severely weakened, but not out of anything shared between us. Maybe invite the JLA in to clean up whatever CS troops survive the battle.

And wouldn't this be an excellent task for Tolkeen to handle? Oops?

No. Lone Star is the only area power with a great enough force. Tolkeen isn't close. For all we know, Tolkeen would be ground zero for the Demon invasion, as its remains are, and it, like Chi-Town and the Cyber Knights and the Splugorth are dealing with other hell pits.

Yes, going after Tolkeen was a great error, but that's the point. It's why we know there's depth to the Coalition, including much of its leadership, and that they aren't just stormtroopers. The Tolkeen war could be enough to change many minds, as happens with the CS soldier Kevin was nice enough to let us follow through the siege.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:31 pm**

Jorick wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

I have a lot of problems with that adjudication. I just asked my museum curator wife what she thought of your statement, and she categorically disagreed with it. Almost all cultures have a level of morality that they're comfortable calling good, otherwise they would take steps to change it! And even still, the kinds of behaviors that you are describing were notable exceptions, not standard, morally acceptable practices!

Standards that they consider good, yes. Not standards that we consider good. Very common "exceptions." Remember, as we researched earlier in the thread, the concept of "genocide" wasn't even created until middle of the 20th century. Maybe people didn't like the idea of murder or killing in general, but that often stopped when dealing with an "other." Killings lots of another kind of person was often considered a good thing. It still is in many cases.

Except that in the Palladium Universe we have this cool alignment system that tells us what is good and what is evil.
I would be fascinated to see a justification of genocide as not violating the good alignment rules.....

Jorick wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Perhaps because the original Chi-Town was not nearly as bad, and the worst transgressions are only a few generations old? I am not sure if there is a canon history of Chi-Town other than the comments of Erin Tarn, but in the century since the Coming of the Rifts she considers the Prosek dynasty to be a NEW evil. They don't have to invent, they could just ask their grandparents.

And again, my point is not that this type of evil is not understandable - it is, is was modeled on the very real evil of the Third Reich - my point is just that it is in fact evil.

As I keep saying, there are very significant differences between the CS and the Nazis. The "reality" of the monsters they fight being the most significant. The fact that a subordinate general is afraid of having his attempt at genocide being discovered another.

Considering that we still don't know what it was at the camps that was unauthorized (was it the torture, the ineffecent costs, or the genocide...) its pretty far fetched to claim that it was the one part that has been explicitly supported by the books as a CS goal .....

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:40 pm**

eliakon wrote:Considering that we still don't know what it was at the camps that was unauthorized (was it the torture, the ineffecent costs, or the genocide...) its pretty far fetched to claim that it was the one part that has been explicitly supported by the books as a CS goal .....

We know exactly what was unauthorized. EVERY SINGLE THING about them. The process of the death camp starving, working, torturing, mass killing the prisoners who were civilians, women, children etc. was against the rules.

Deon, the soldier we follow through the books saves the prisoners, and refuses to "mist" the camp (meaning not just the prisoners, but the buildings, the evidence thatt such camps exist) against the orders of Drogue. He later finds Drogue by accident and kills him because he's so disgusted.

He's not a unique case. Constantly the books explain the mentality of those around Drogue and the reaction people have to such actions. How Drogue's battle plans are too bloodthirsty, and how the camps, the very idea of them, is so terrible that Drogue can not let anyone know about them. Please read the books. It's not a mystery. It's not ambiguous. Death Camp, explicitly modeled after the concentration camps of the Nazis, are too much for the CS. Clear as day.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:48 pm**

Jorick wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:It also requires ignoring all of human history and refusing to understand human action. Why do people do evil things? Throughout history, according to the standards set forth here, the great majority of humanity has been evil. I have no problem with that adjudication. But somehow, despite all that humanity has been through, it did reach some level of morality that we're comfortable calling good.

I have a lot of problems with that adjudication. I just asked my museum curator wife what she thought of your statement, and she categorically disagreed with it. Almost all cultures have a level of morality that they're comfortable calling good, otherwise they would take steps to change it! And even still, the kinds of behaviors that you are describing were notable exceptions, not standard, morally acceptable practices!

Standards that they consider good, yes. Not standards that we consider good. Very common "exceptions." Remember, as we researched earlier in the thread, the concept of "genocide" wasn't even created until middle of the 20th century. Maybe people didn't like the idea of murder or killing in general, but that often stopped when dealing with an "other." Killings lots of another kind of person was often considered a good thing. It still is in many cases.

Evil is still evil no matter how you try and dress it up, particularly in an RPG setting where there are objective and effectively cosmic laws that define without equivocation good and evil, and the CS is evil. The racists that felt killing blacks was okay because 'well they aren't really people they're just animals' were evil, they made excuses to dehumanize a segment of the population so they could try and go 'but it wasn't really murder it was just killing an animal'. The CS does the same thing, which is one of the many reasons why they're evil.

Also, just because we didn't create a specific WORD for genocide until the 20th century doesn't mean that somehow genocide didn't exist prior to that point.

Jorick"[quote="cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:Why should it be obvious to such people, what is good and not, when it is obvious, according to the standards set forth here, to maybe a portion of the last 3-4 generations of human beings in our actual reality?

Perhaps because the original Chi-Town was not nearly as bad, and the worst transgressions are only a few generations old? I am not sure if there is a canon history of Chi-Town other than the comments of Erin Tarn, but in the century since the Coming of the Rifts she considers the Prosek dynasty to be a NEW evil. They don't have to invent, they could just ask their grandparents.

And again, my point is not that this type of evil is not understandable - it is, is was modeled on the very real evil of the Third Reich - my point is just that it is in fact evil.

As I keep saying, there are very significant differences between the CS and the Nazis. The "reality" of the monsters they fight being the most significant. The fact that a subordinate general is afraid of having his attempt at genocide being discovered another. Certainly, given the confines of what was considered "good" by many of the peoples your museum friend studies, the CS is within bounds.[/quote]

No, just no. The reality is most of those the CS kills are decent peaceful beings whose only 'crime' was not being human, and the CS is NOT within the bounds of 'good', it just isn't. The fact one general went and added in extra torture sessions before killing his victims does NOT qualify as 'proof' that the CS is somehow 'good' and not really genocidal, that's just nonsense. The fact someone like Hitler or Stalin would think the CS was within the bounds of Good just kills any attempts to try and spin it that 'well if the CS thinks they're doing good then they must be good', because Hitler and his ilk weren't good and neither is the CS.

Jorick wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:I have a scenario for a campaign in the Minion War I'd love to play out... But the only force in the area capable of matching those demons is Lone Star...

Then do that. But if it is that bad a problem then there are likely many other powers that will play into things, like from big formal groups like Lazlo and Larsen's Brigade and the JLA to informal groups like the one that formed in Africa to fight the Four Horsemen. If you want to contrive that Lone Star is the only reasonable opponent, then do so, but don't expect me to buy it. And as a player, don't expect me to go to Lone Star while there is still a possibility that the old guy in the village might possibly be an ancient dragon or such.

Come to think of it, I might try and draw the CS into it in the hopes that they will be severely weakened, but not out of anything shared between us. Maybe invite the JLA in to clean up whatever CS troops survive the battle.

And wouldn't this be an excellent task for Tolkeen to handle? Oops?

No. Lone Star is the only area power with a great enough force. Tolkeen isn't close. For all we know, Tolkeen would be ground zero for the Demon invasion, as its remains are, and it, like Chi-Town and the Cyber Knights and the Splugorth are dealing with other hell pits.

Yes, going after Tolkeen was a great error, but that's the point. It's why we know there's depth to the Coalition, including much of its leadership, and that they aren't just stormtroopers. The Tolkeen war could be enough to change many minds, as happens with the CS soldier Kevin was nice enough to let us follow through the siege.

No, Lone Star isn't the only powerful force around, nor would Tolkeen have been ground zero for a Demon Invasion since they didn't even end up dealing with demons until AFTER the demonic hordes of the CS set about slaughtering their citizens and that only as a desperate measure to try and PROTECT their people. The CS is very much stormtroopers, heck they even have what amount to programmed killer clones in the form of their Skelebots (although I imagine in spite of the game material making it clear the Skelebots were programmed to kill anything that wasn't a CS trooper you'll insist that they weren't and really were programmed to simply peacefully transport people from the war zone).

Also, error implies someone simply made a mistake and didn't really mean to do what they did. The CS did not err, the CS with great malice aforethought carefully planned over more than a decade the slaughter of everyone in Tolkeen, developing advanced weapons and pumping out skelebots in the millions for the sole purpose of killing everyone in Tolkeen. Their intentions were to kill everyone and EVERYTHING in the books makes that perfectly clear and the ONLY reason they wanted to do so was because Tolkeen was a place of magic users and aliens, not because Tolkeen was a threat or an evil empire like the CS but simply because it existed.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:53 pm**

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote:Considering that we still don't know what it was at the camps that was unauthorized (was it the torture, the ineffecent costs, or the genocide...) its pretty far fetched to claim that it was the one part that has been explicitly supported by the books as a CS goal .....

We know exactly what was unauthorized. EVERY SINGLE THING about them. The process of the death camp starving, working, torturing, mass killing the prisoners who were civilians, women, children etc. was against the rules.

Deon, the soldier we follow through the books saves the prisoners, and refuses to "mist" the camp (meaning not just the prisoners, but the buildings, the evidence thatt such camps exist) against the orders of Drogue. He later finds Drogue by accident and kills him because he's so disgusted.

He's not a unique case. Constantly the books explain the mentality of those around Drogue and the reaction people have to such actions. How Drogue's battle plans are too bloodthirsty, and how the camps, the very idea of them, is so terrible that Drogue can not let anyone know about them. Please read the books. It's not a mystery. It's not ambiguous. Death Camp, explicitly modeled after the concentration camps of the Nazis, are too much for the CS. Clear as day.

You really just don't seem to be getting it, the purpose of the war was to kill everyone, the purpose was not to collect prisoners and spend time torturing and working them to death first. Deon is also one of the exceptions, he's not an example of normal CS behavior. Normal CS behavior IS to vaporize everyone, taking prisoners unless they might have useful information on the other hand is not. I mean I just can't figure out how you're thinking anything that you're saying has any relation to the actual books, when 'kill them all' is in black and white for the CS's policies with long paragraphs and chapters devoted to just how much of an evil empire they are and the atrocities they routinely commit.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:05 am**

Jorick wrote:Standards that they consider good, yes. Not standards that we consider good.

Not what I said, so let me clarify - the standard of morality that characterize western cultures of recorded history were by and large less "good" than modern societies and moralities, but the only cultures that were anywhere near as bad as the CS are notable for being outliers, unusual cases that ran counter to the norms of the day.

Jorick wrote:Very common "exceptions."

Not in the same league as the CS, no.

Jorick wrote:Remember, as we researched earlier in the thread, the concept of "genocide" wasn't even created until middle of the 20th century.

That's sort of my point, and it was created in response to a few specific groups that represent a pretty small portion of modern history and society. Remember that WWII Germany had 90 million people out of about 2.3 billion worldwide, enacted a genocide that lasted roughly 4 years, and they represent the greatest attempt at genocide ever recorded!

Jorick wrote:Maybe people didn't like the idea of murder or killing in general, but that often stopped when dealing with an "other."

Yes, except for the "often" part. Even in WWII Germany there are numerous known (and presumably many more UNknown) cases of soldiers refusing to participate in the genocide. Cases similar to the CS are pretty danged rare. And, ya know, remarkably evil.

Jorick wrote:As I keep saying, there are very significant differences between the CS and the Nazis. The "reality" of the monsters they fight being the most significant. The fact that a subordinate general is afraid of having his attempt at genocide being discovered another. Certainly, given the confines of what was considered "good" by many of the peoples your museum friend studies, the CS is within bounds.

The reality of the monsters is arguable (since I'm arguing it!), since a great many of those targeted are either no threat at all or are a threat only because the know they are targets of the CS and have decided to shoot first! And while Drogue may have been hiding what he is doing, I don't recall the leadership being horrified about it. And my museum WIFE still disagrees with your assessment.

Jorick wrote:No. Lone Star is the only area power with a great enough force. Tolkeen isn't close. For all we know, Tolkeen would be ground zero for the Demon invasion, as its remains are, and it, like Chi-Town and the Cyber Knights and the Splugorth are dealing with other hell pits.

Tolkeen isn't really there, thanks to the CS. And like I said, I'm sure you can contrive a situation to fit your needs and reactions to them, I don't think I or my typical players and fellow GM's would respond the same way. You think Lone Star is the only one close enough and strong enough? I think that I would be willing to cast my net a little wider to avoid even temporarily allying myself with a Coalition State.

Jorick wrote:Yes, going after Tolkeen was a great error, but that's the point. It's why we know there's depth to the Coalition, including much of its leadership, and that they aren't just stormtroopers.

Except that the regrets with the war are with the execution, not the decision. They don't regret their moral failings, they regret not doing it better! Not sure what depth that shows!

Jorick wrote:The Tolkeen war could be enough to change many minds, as happens with the CS soldier Kevin was nice enough to let us follow through the siege.

Kevin was a soldier on the ground. That his mind was changed doesn't mean that the Generals and other leaders were swayed, and the Coalition propaganda machine still has a captive audience and a lot of horse manure to spread around. I would be astonished to see the CS soften their stance in any real way in future books.

Maybe you should pitch Palladium on the idea of writing a book where the CS changes their ways and fulfills their potentials as the leaders of good in humanity.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:12 am**

Nightmask wrote: [stuff]

You're not even arguing with me anymore man. You're ignoring my points, all that I've made in this thread, to the same extent you argued with the OP to begin with.

You looked only at the title and not the content.

Yes, genocide DID exist earlier than the word. That's exactly what I'm saying. It wasn't considered evil, or even that special of a thing. Before we get confused, that is a separate conversation.

I already covered the implications of there being an inherent "good" and "evil" in this universe and how that changes a moral compass significantly. There are even explicitly evil creatures. Mortal humans are not those things. Developing societies are ignored by champions of good. Even societies, supposedly good, but that make lots of mistakes, like the CCW, are befriended by Cosmo Knights. It's tough being a mortal without power in this universe. There are greater evils.

The reality that you see that "most of those the CS kills are decent peaceful beings" is not supported by the text. I quoted so much to you, about what makes a CS hero. You refuse to read. You will tell me that it's me who refuses to read. Please. Read what I quote you and respond to that. It's still there. Read the Siege books.

The "proof" is that the General didn't "just add extra torture sessions." His very plan to mimic the Nazi extermination program was the problem. The people of the CS could not handle it. The soldiers of the CS could not handle it. The officers, except for those allied to Drogue, could not handle it. The idea of treating innocents like that was too much. Even the way Drogue conducted battle, by explicitly attacking and killing undefended civilians made the war planners back home uncomfortable. Karl went along with it, though it wasn't what he had considered, but the battle had been going so badly, and he didn't really care. So his advisers were too scared to speak up. Now that Drogue is nothing but a shameful failure, who is blissfully missing in action (actually dead), the tide has turned back to the old guard.

The people of the CS believe they are fighting an enormous threat all the time. They actually are. Their problem is not being able to tell the difference between aliens that mean to eat their souls, and aliens that, for all moral purposes, are just like them. This is far different than a society, like Nazi Germany, that simply, as a society, with no existential threat at all, believes that people who are just like them, are not at all like them, for basically petty reasons. They invented, as a society, over the course of hundreds of years, an existential threat to be afraid of. The CS did not have to invent that fear.

Tolkeen is geographically ground zero for the Demon invasion. It is the first place the Demons are encountered. Perhaps it would have been some other place had Tolkeen been around. Or perhaps Tolkeen, because of the magic triangle and whatever else they had going on in terms of ley lines, would be ground zero still, just cause it's an easy place to get in.

The mistake of Tolkeen is that it didn't have to be an enemy. Pretty sure we agree on that. What I'm trying to imply by "mistake" is that with a little less ignorance, the CS could behave much differently. Their fear is justified through truly horrific experience. Fear is hard to overcome. But it can be overcome. Demon evil is not gonna change no matter what.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:14 am**

Jorick wrote:We know exactly what was unauthorized. EVERY SINGLE THING about them. The process of the death camp starving, working, torturing, mass killing the prisoners who were civilians, women, children etc. was against the rules.

Since you know the book so well, can you give me a reference to this? I can find the part where Drogue's tactics divide the army in two along moral lines, and I can find the part where many who oppose him still go along with it because ,they are spineless human supremacists, and I can find the part where the Emperor doesn't like the tactics because he appreciates the goal but is worried about the appearance and propaganda problems. I can't find where Drogue was operating as a rogue, defying his superiors.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:16 am**

This is getting nowhere.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:29 am**

cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:We know exactly what was unauthorized. EVERY SINGLE THING about them. The process of the death camp starving, working, torturing, mass killing the prisoners who were civilians, women, children etc. was against the rules.

Since you know the book so well, can you give me a reference to this? I can find the part where Drogue's tactics divide the army in two along moral lines, and I can find the part where many who oppose him still go along with it because ,they are spineless human supremacists, and I can find the part where the Emperor doesn't like the tactics because he appreciates the goal but is worried about the appearance and propaganda problems. I can't find where Drogue was operating as a rogue, defying his superiors.

I did earlier in the thread...reading everything I write instead of nitpicking the occasional post would help the conversation.

Siege on Tolkeen 5. Shadows of Evil starting on Page 101. "Incriminating Evidence," and all the other stuff after.

Also see Siege 2: Coalition Overkill, starting on Page 16 "A Rising Evil" (or even the preceding section as well re. the mess the Coalition got itself into), to red about the difference between the Second Wave and what we can understand as the CS as usual before them.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:47 am**

Jorick wrote:
Nightmask wrote: [stuff]

You're not even arguing with me anymore man. You're ignoring my points, all that I've made in this thread, to the same extent you argued with the OP to begin with.

You looked only at the title and not the content.

Yes, genocide DID exist earlier than the word. That's exactly what I'm saying. It wasn't considered evil, or even that special of a thing. Before we get confused, that is a separate conversation.

I already covered the implications of there being an inherent "good" and "evil" in this universe and how that changes a moral compass significantly. There are even explicitly evil creatures. Mortal humans are not those things. Developing societies are ignored by champions of good.

source?

Jorick wrote: Even societies, supposedly good, but that make lots of mistakes, like the CCW, are befriended by Cosmo Knights. It's tough being a mortal without power in this universe. There are greater evils.

again source. AND a citation that the CCW qualifies in any way as an evil society. Because otherwise the argument that "non-evil people get befriended by good beings" as no relevance on a discussion about evil societies.

Jorick wrote:The reality that you see that "most of those the CS kills are decent peaceful beings" is not supported by the text. I quoted so much to you, about what makes a CS hero. You refuse to read. You will tell me that it's me who refuses to read. Please. Read what I quote you and respond to that. It's still there. Read the Siege books.

Okay, try again.
Book and Page, where does it explicitly say that the CS is a hero (not that the CS says it is the hero, but as an ex-cathedra third person statement)

Jorick wrote:The "proof" is that the General didn't "just add extra torture sessions." His very plan to mimic the Nazi extermination program was the problem. The people of the CS could not handle it. The soldiers of the CS could not handle it. The officers, except for those allied to Drogue, could not handle it. The idea of treating innocents like that was too much. Even the way Drogue conducted battle, by explicitly attacking and killing undefended civilians made the war planners back home uncomfortable. Karl went along with it, though it wasn't what he had considered, but the battle had been going so badly, and he didn't really care. So his advisers were too scared to speak up. Now that Drogue is nothing but a shameful failure, who is blissfully missing in action (actually dead), the tide has turned back to the old guard.

Citations for the specific claim that the mimicking of the extermination program was a problem. (I ask because the books have said explicitly that the Proseks are genocidal, that they are modeling their actions on the Nazis, and that the war in Tolkeen was supposed to kill everyone. Which sort of calls into question claims to the contrary)

Jorick wrote:The people of the CS believe they are fighting an enormous threat all the time. They actually are.

No, they are not. They are fighting a small threat and a lot of imaginary threats that only exist in their head. There is a HUGE difference

Jorick wrote:Their problem is not being able to tell the difference between aliens that mean to eat their souls, and aliens that, for all moral purposes, are just like them.

No their problem is that they have no desire to try to tell the two apart. That they automatically assume that all Xenos is Evil.

Jorick wrote:This is far different than a society, like Nazi Germany, that simply, as a society, with no existential threat at all, believes that people who are just like them, are not at all like them, for basically petty reasons. They invented, as a society, over the course of hundreds of years, an existential threat to be afraid of. The CS did not have to invent that fear.

Except that neither of them invented anything over the course of hundreds of years anything.
The Nazis created their hatred over the course of a single government rule.

Jorick wrote:Tolkeen is geographically ground zero for the Demon invasion. It is the first place the Demons are encountered. Perhaps it would have been some other place had Tolkeen been around. Or perhaps Tolkeen, because of the magic triangle and whatever else they had going on in terms of ley lines, would be ground zero still, just cause it's an easy place to get in.

I am going to assume that this is something to do with your personal game worlds history.....

Jorick wrote:The mistake of Tolkeen is that it didn't have to be an enemy. Pretty sure we agree on that. What I'm trying to imply by "mistake" is that with a little less ignorance, the CS could behave much differently. Their fear is justified through truly horrific experience. Fear is hard to overcome. But it can be overcome. Demon evil is not gonna change no matter what.

No their fear is not justified. THATS THE POINT. The books make this explicit. The fear was deliberately created by the first Prosek. He MANUFACTURED the fear as a TOOL to fuel his ascension to power. A path that he carved on the backs of hundreds of thousands of innocent dead in the FoM war. This artificial fear has been systematically built and maintained by a deliberate propaganda campaign designed to suppress the truth and replace it with false stories that support the narrative that the powers that be want told. A fear that is put to the lie by every other state on North America (and indeed the planet) that manages to survive with out the atrocities that the CS indulges in. THAT survival is the chief 'crime' of many of these other states. That they dare to survive and thus show the CS propaganda as a lie.
THAT is why the CS is evil

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:01 am**

eliakon wrote: stuff

The CS has heroes. It's not a hero itself.

Megaverse in Flames book talks about where the demons come.

That Jews were considered second class citizens in large part because their "blood" made them villainous was a fact, even at a legal level for well over a hundred years (I don't recall when it was first officially so). Look up texts regarding "The Jewish Question" in Germany, which is a discussion primarily over whether Jews should be emancipated and why they shouldn't be.

I don't know how the threats, plural, that the CS is fighting can be considered small.
Please read older responses for other citations.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:14 am**

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote: stuff

The CS has heroes. It's not a hero itself.

Then how does that prove its not the villain....

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote: stuff
Megaverse in Flames book talks about where the demons come.

can you be a bit more specific. That's a rather large book.....

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote: stuff

That Jews were considered second class citizens in large part because their "blood" made them villainous was a fact, even at a legal level for well over a hundred years (I don't recall when it was first officially so). Look up texts regarding "The Jewish Question" in Germany, which is a discussion primarily over whether Jews should be emancipated and why they shouldn't be.

I would say that since the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim (that no, the Nazis really didn't create any sort of hatred state, but that it was really a pre-existing condition)
Specifically I would ask for support that the Nuremburg Race laws of 1935 were, in fact, not new.

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote: stuff

I don't know how the threats, plural, that the CS is fighting can be considered small.
Please read older responses for other citations.

The threats that literally every other nation on North America is also dealing with? Oh wait, if we take those out (because if Lazlo can also deal with it then its not special to the CS) then quite literally the CS major threat is.....
The enemies that the CS has purposefully created for itself..
Hmmmm, I am not impressed.
Yes the Xixtic are a problem. But that is one that is inherent to living in North America, and is being faced by others, not just the CS.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:05 am**

cosmicfish wrote:This is getting nowhere.

Pretty much. It's baffling the lengths some go through to defend the CS and try to make them out as misunderstood good guys, humanity's last hope, or some other excuse for how they aren't the human supremacist, xenophobic, genocidal empire that they actually are. They're explicitly written to be the fictional counter-part of the RL Nazis from WWII, taken up to eleven. Their genocidal war against Tolkeen alone massively destabilized the region and increased the threat to everything living in the area due to what Tolkeen was forced to resort to to fight back and defend its people as well as the simple loss of its stabilizing presence.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:59 am**

cosmicfish wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
cosmicfish wrote: Tolkeen made some bad snap decisions

Didn't they build up their military for years before the siege?

Yes... but is having a military evil? I was referring to summoning demons, I don't recall them doing that (as a nation) prior to the invasion! I really don't see your point.

You said "bad snap decisions" not "evil snap decisions."
Building up a military for years is not a snap decision.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:20 am**

cosmicfish wrote:The intelligence of the Xiticix is intentionally and canonically alien and ill-defined, but I thought the higher classes were categorized as having "regular" intelligence. I was wrong there, they are not sentient as far as I can tell (for the purposes of this discussion). And the "regurgitate into sludge" thing is only by a small fraction and is not limited to sentient creatures, like it is with vampires and the like.

It is still them devouring people.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Actions as necessary to prevent this expansion and associated loss of life are justifiable. Whether or not that permits their genocide depends a lot on what other options are available and/or have been tried.

"Permits" by whose standards...?

The standards of those making the decision against the absolute moralities of the Palladium multiverse.

Sounds like a GM's call.

And most groups committing genocide don't consider their victims to be people, their opinion doesn't really count, any more than a cannibal's opinion of "good food to eat".

So if we find out someday that trees are sentient, then humanity is evil for slaughtering them, regardless of our ignorance.

So in the case of Aliens, Nuking them from orbit was an evil act, since there were still individual xenos who had not yet tried to kill Ripley and company?

No. They did not appear sentient or communicative (precluding discussion), she had sampled a large portion of that specific population without finding any "good" ones (suggesting that statistically they were all "bad"), she had observed their collective evil behavior outside of duress (i.e., prior to her arrival they had elected to kill their noncombatant captives), and the belief (true, no less) that allowing them to remain would alive would result in their killing more people.

I'd say that the CS has sampled a large portion of mages, without finding any "good" ones by CS standards.
I'd also say that the CS has observed collectively evil behavior by mages outside of duress, and that the CS fears that allowing mages to exist would result in more people dying.

Conversely, the CS is targeting sentients with whom they can and do communicate,

Yes, but communication doesn't matter much when an impasse is reached.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Look at history.
Look at the actions of our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, where our troops have trouble telling which groups are enemies and which aren't.
Take Vietnam, for example, where the US troops had trouble telling the VC from innocent locals.
Look at the colonization of America, and all the stuff that happened because the settlers and military had trouble telling the difference between a hostile Indian tribe and a non-hostile one.

In Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam, the trouble of parsing hostiles from civilians was and is difficult... but we still do it, and we still absorb the cost of our errors as an alternative to turning to evil, and we still punish those who decide that distinctions between innocent and evil are too hard or meaningless. If we followed the CS model in ANY of those wars, it is likely World War III would have already started, and it would be the US against the world!

Yes, because we live in a more enlightened, simpler time.
But the difficulties that we have in present day show that the behavior of the CS would not be unusual in more extreme circumstances, such as Rifts Earth provides.

And as for the colonization of the Americas, we fought alongside large numbers of native Americans right up to the point where we disarmed the last ones and put them on reservations - the problems Europeans had were not really about identifying hostiles. If you still want to give that one a run, I might hand you over to my wife, she did her masters thesis on colonial/native interaction, I just read the danged thing.

It depends on which part of the timeline you're looking at, and which problems you're looking at.
Ask your wife if the native practice of blood revenge ever caused any problems with white settlers, and if the white settlers responses were always accurately directed to the right tribe.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that in Rifts, as you say, the stakes are higher.
Also, there are more factors.
That human waving at you from the hillside might be a dragon.
That guy selling you fruit might be a mind melter or mind bleeder.
That soldier fighting next to you might be an Auto-G, or he might be possessed.

Sure, and what are the odds of those, compared to the cost of being wrong? What methods do you have for determining the truth before acting lethally based on suspicion? Paranoia does not justify evil.

No, it doesn't.
But justified paranoia can cause evil.

Killer Cyborg wrote:LOOK at history.
Look at how paranoid humans have gotten in times of danger, and how they've treated people who are different from them.
The CS behavior in their extreme circumstances is not particularly unusual, considering the sheer number and varieties of enemies they're up against, all the unknown and unseen powers that many of these enemies have.

And look how often western civilizations have later apologized for those actions, too. Saying that people can be coerced, or pushed, or led, or get scared into evil actions explains how they got there but does not make their actions any less evil, nor does it forgive what they have done.

I'd say that it makes their actions less evil than if they committed those actions in a vacuum, and that explanation can go a long way toward forgiveness.
One man kills an innocent child that he knows for a fact is innocent.
Another man kills an innocent child that he carelessly mistakes for a threat.
Are their actions equally evil in your eyes?

Killer Cyborg wrote:In today's modern world, sure.
A few hundred years ago?
Nope.

Why is that even a standard?

Why would the modern world's views be a standard for Rifts Earth?

Why does what was acceptable a few hundred years ago matter to any of this?

Because the standards of Rifts Earth are closer to the standards of hundreds of years ago than they are to present day.

Killer Cyborg wrote:A few hundred years from now, after an apocalypse?
Nope.
Judging a society that's hundreds of years apart from us with modern eyes isn't exactly a fair judgment.

True, but the CS is being judged by their contemporaries, and outside the NGR (who aren't exactly paragons of virtue themselves) found wanting.

Which contemporaries? Erin Tarn? The city of Lazlo?
They are likewise judged to be evil by their contemporaries.

Plus, as has been noted on here already, Palladium does have an absolute morality that gives us an exacting standard against which to judge, and while individual "lesser" members of the CS may pass that standard the leadership and actions of the nation do not.

The Palladium alignment system--that absolute morality that you refer to--does NOT apply to nations AFAIK, but only to individuals.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:22 am**

Nightmask wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:This is getting nowhere.

Pretty much.

Of course.
It never was going to go anywhere.

It's baffling the lengths some go through to defend the CS and try to make them out as misunderstood good guys, humanity's last hope, or some other excuse for how they aren't the human supremacist, xenophobic, genocidal empire that they actually are.

They are certainly human supremacists, and they're certainly xenophobic.
I haven't seen anybody deny that.

They're not genocidal, though. At least not yet.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:23 am**

Just a reminder as there have been some complaints in this thread.

While the board rules state a preference for merging multiple consecutive posts from the same poster into a single large post, ultimately you are responsibility for the legibility of your own posts and particularly large posts that respond to multiple different posts may become unreadable causing your points to be ignored. Hit the preview button before you ubmit and ask yourself if this post should be better broken up into a series of posts.

Also, watch the formatting on your quoting. It is best to not break up a quote into small single lines of text as that makes it difficult to track who said what and the contexts of the post. Instead quote entire paragraphs or entire posts to respond to and leave the formatting intact which leads back to the author of said post.

Again, these aren't rules points, but instead suggestions on how to make your points more legibly.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:07 am**

Shark_Force wrote:if the emperor's wife had been kidnapped by someone using a laser pistol, would you consider that legitimate cause to declare war on everyone who has a laser pistol?

This would approach a fair comparison if all magic did was allow you to fire energy blasts.

It may start off that way, but what it leads to is "I accidentally a portal of winged demons into your suburbia" stuff. Exactly this happened preceding the CS ban on magic.

Plus: if I am in the habit of keeping unvetted people with laser pistols away from the Emperor's waifu, I will also be in the habit of keeping unvetted mages away from her, since they are like laser pistols you can't disarm.

Except it's not just a laser pistol, it's something which can mind control the Emperor's guards into stepping aside, or help kidap the Emperor's wife.

The distance you need to keep mages away, the controls you need to put in place, are much bigger than with a mere laser pistol.

Shark_Force wrote:would you consider it reasonable to declare war on a nation that did not in fact participate in the attack, and completely ignore the nation that did participate in the attack?

Even though Tolkeen pulled out of the FoM and did not participate in it's attack on Chi-Town, they still use the same dangerous magicks that FoM experimented with and which resulted in many deaths in the CS burbs. They were allowing otherworldly creatures to be summoned to this planet, which could escape and go harm people. Were they being held accountable for this?

Shark_Force wrote:not every single person living in CS territory is evil. but an uncomfortably large amount are

What amount is that?

15% of the soldiers are described as being evil, but I am not sure what proportion of the civilians are.

"People living in CS territory" also includes D-Bees and rogue scholars and wizards, doesn't it?

Shark_Force wrote:imagine we were to put you in a room with 10 random people. how many of them do you think would be willing to kill an unarmed foe?

Many, if the foe were beating them to death with fists instead of a weapon. Or if the unarmed foe was trying to obtain a weapon.

Shark_Force wrote:how many of them do you think would kill or torture people for the fun of it?

'Torture for pleasure' is something even an anarchist can do (they're just not likely to). Pleasure encompasses more than fun. It could cover the satisfaction one gets at a sense of justice, like "they deserve this".

Being able to torture for pleasure doesn't mean Miscreants/Diabolics are just going to start doing this randomly to people, they will still have a thought process behind why they do it.

When we consider this narrowing-down, it is entirely plausible that 2/10 people in the elevator would do this.

Say for example: a mugger attacks you and stabs you in the leg, but then you overpower them, disarm them, and get on top, and they surrender, and you are now able to get away. But then you keep hitting them as 'payback' for them trying to kill you. That qualifies as torturing for pleasure, because you are no longer fighting in self defense, but using excessive force out of malice/sadism. Even if, all things considered, it's justified eye-for-eye stuff.

Shark_Force wrote:how many would betray their friends (not just some random person, but their actual friends)?

Also something an Anarchist may do.

I think a lot of people would do this. Maybe not to ALL their friends, but a lot of people have casual friends that they do not value very highly.

Shark_Force wrote:how many of them do you think will see nothing wrong with hurting random people that have done absolutely nothing to them?

Only a Diabolic would do this, and we don't know what portion of the 15% evil soldiers are Diabolic.

Even a Miscreant will have second thoughts about hurting or using an innocent. They may still do it, but they will generally have a motive behind it, it won't be 'random'.

Shark_Force wrote:in the CS, there's a pretty decent chance 2 of the people in that room fit a large part of that description

Do you mean 'in the CS army'?

How much do we know about the attitudes that may be focused in our own IRL armies? May they possibly attract people prone to violence?

Shark_Force wrote:the rest of the people in that room largely don't care what they do to you unless you happen to fit into a narrow group of people who by virtue of being born to the right parents in the right place at the right time don't deserve it in their minds.

I'm pretty sure that even if someone didn't care about anyone else, that if person A randomly attacked person B, the other 8 in the elevator would want to stop them, since they would seem psychotic and dangerous and could turn on them next.

Shark_Force wrote:they may not be the most evil place in the world, or even close to it. but they sure aren't very good either.

The 15% evil of the CS army is worse than the 2% of Wormwood monks or 4% of Psyscape, but Palladium hasn't given a lot of alignment breakdowns for places (usually we see race breakdowns) so I don't know who else they are necessarily worse than until being told this.

We get alignment breakdowns for races more often than places, so let's see how some others compare to the CS army:

Better than CS:

Worse than CS:

prob lots more to add, will save this for later, getting tired.

cosmicfish wrote:The last paragraph appears to skew the forces fighting the PC's to be more evil than the norm ("predominantly").

It is predominantly "evil or self-centred". Arguing this means mostly evil is like arguing "mostly good and selfish" means mostly good.

Even if it did mean mostly evil: that just means all the good/selfish soldiers aren't attacking the PCs, doesn't impact the CS as whole. IE "not necessarily the average soldier", as it says.

cosmicfish wrote:Your 15% is on top of another 30% that explicitly fit evil or Anarchist alignments, with a lot of text describing distinctly evil acts attributed to many of the possibly Anarchist contingent. We have no guidance as to whether the remaining 55% are good, selfish, or simply some variety of evil that does not fit well into the previous three categories.

I excluded anything with anarchist as an option since I can't verify how much of those groups are evil. You're right though, 15% is a minimum, not a maximum. It seems like the maximum would be 45%. Being Pro-CS, I am going to say 16-19% so that they are less evil than Wooly Dragons. I believe the majority of these othe groups are anarchists and would not increase the evil percentage much. As anarchist precedes evil, I am inclined to assume at least 50% are anarchist. In that context, this would mean at most 30% of the soldiers are evil, tying them with Headhunter Techno-Warriors.

cosmicfish wrote:The first paragraph above suggests that the solid majority of the military on a path that, were they players, would be leading them in the direction of evil alignments.

Naw, they're scared, shooting first before asking questions isn't necessarily evil, just panic.

cosmicfish wrote:"these soldiers are, without a doubt, misguided individuals unwittingly serving an evil cause." is another canon condemnation of the Coalition as a military/political entity

It isn't clarified what the evil cause is, it could be Karl Prosek's leadership, rather than the CS as a concept, which predates Karl and his father.

cosmicfish wrote:The book describes those of good alignment as being either "indoctrinated" or else struggling to find a way to protect their own people while working against the Coalition's evil plans.

Which part mentions the Coalition having evil plans?

cosmicfish wrote:It is also not a stretch to extend the term genocide to include the hunting down of people who can use magic, as the actions of the Coalition fit the term in everything but the nature of the group targeted - it seems to me that a real-world campaign against martial artists** would likely see some version of "occupation" to be added to the definition.

Hobbies, fields of study, occupations, specialties.

It's far too slippery a slope. Torture is a skill. Is it genocide if you go on a spree trying to wipe out torturers? Rapists? Murderers? Cannibals?

Considerering there are dark pantheons of evil gods out there with religions dedicated to worshipping them (like Pantheon of Taut, Demon Lords, Old Ones) I think we also ought to entertain the idea that, if we define a genocide as wiping out a religion in Palladium Books, genocide does not necessarily make a group evil. So perhaps it should be excluded on whether or not they're the bad guy.

Enough text exists to show that the anti-mage policy is to push them off-continent or off-planet, their refusal to evict to safeguard humans is what leads to violence against them. They are not being rounded up under false pretenses for execution like the Nazis did, which is what someone does when their priority is killing rather than security.

cosmicfish wrote:We don't have "good demons" or "neighborly Xiticix" or "vegan vampires"

Why do demons or devils have to be good? There's plenty who are selfish (like half of Imps) and we don't view killing selfish (or even evil) humans unprovoked as a good thing.

Vampires don't need to be vegans, so long as they aren't killing people, where's the justification in killing them? Those who feed stave off becoming a mindless killer, and many do so while keeping their food source alive, possibly even using healing magics to restore them.

cosmicfish wrote:the issue with genocide is that it says "kill ALL of this group"

Which is not CS policy. Arguments that CS is genocidal in this thread seemed to be based on their mass-slaughter policies.

cosmicfish wrote:that can only be justified if ALL of that group tries to kill you.

Xiticix Nits don't try to kill you, nor do Nannies, unless they are attacked first or defending their young. Aggression in the species is focused on warrior-type units. A lot of the species only plays a supportive role.

That doesn't mean it's wrong to genocide the whole species, because if you only kill the warriors, the other kinds will keep the passive 'I'm just defending myself' queen alive to breed more warriors to attack you.

*thinking of Sword of Truth warriors vs supporters Richard dilemma as well*

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:11 am**

Tor wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:if the emperor's wife had been kidnapped by someone using a laser pistol, would you consider that legitimate cause to declare war on everyone who has a laser pistol?

This would approach a fair comparison if all magic did was allow you to fire energy blasts.

It may start off that way, but what it leads to is "I accidentally a portal of winged demons into your suburbia" stuff. Exactly this happened preceding the CS ban on magic.

Yes.
Also, a lone mage trying to open up a simple demonstration rift is what brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, and that could have potentially resulted in the entire planet being destroyed.
Just because one mage cast one spell one time.

That's the kind of power that I think people are right to fear, and are right to want to regulate to some degree.
Killing ALL mages is extreme, but since even one lone mage could potentially threaten an entire planet, I don't think that it's as extreme as a lot of people want to think.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:25 am**

I think one point that being missed here....
The CS is not accidentally fearing mages
The CS is not fearing mages for ignorance
The CS is not fearing mages because of the danger of the power
The CS is afraid of mages, and has committed Genocide.....
So that Prosek can take over and gain absolute power.
Its not an accident, or a mistake, or a misunderstanding.
It is a deliberate, plan, one with malice aforethought to blame mages and aliens for the CS problems, and then under the pretext of solving that new found problem gaining and maintaining absolute power.
It is a pure and simple, willful deliberate lie built on more lies for a purely selfish goal. That sort of makes the claim that its not evil ring rather hollow.
I mean if genocide for personal power isn't evil then I am really at a loss as to what IS.

And yes, it has explicitly committed genocide. CWC page 21 second column second paragraph.

then there is this gem
"I conduct a war of annihilation against the alien, the grotesque and the unnatural." Campaign of Unity speech CWC pg. 9 Emperor Prosek's own words.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:00 am**

eliakon wrote:Can anyone find a defense for the Good Alignment to be allowed to commit genocide?

Xiticix Invasion 92: "The powers that be at Lazlo have come to conclusions similar to the Coalition States, right down to eliminating the threat via genocide."

So either we accept good alignments can accept genocide, or the 'powers that be' at Lazlo lack good alignments.

Plato in 105 PA: "there is nothing more abhorrent than to advocate genocide .. with the Xiticix we see no other way"

Any idea what Plato's alignment is?

Page 94: Lazlo's "Plan A" is "slow genocide" and "Plan B" is "total genocide". I don't know much about Lazlo but they get painted as 'good guys' a lot.

Page 153/154 we have a stalker/hound both principled who are on a "killing spree" and having "no remorse".

eliakon wrote:Under what circumstances can Selfish do so? What alignment do they have to be to allow it?

Atlantis p 66 the Sunaj Assassin OCC (a class exclusively dedicated to genocide against other Atlantean clans) has an "average alignment" of "selfish or evil".

At bare minimum I believe this supports that anarchist alignments can commit genocide.

A lot of Xiticix are also described as being considered anarchist and that species' treatment of other species is much worse than the CS. The actions of the Xiticix are more worthy of being considered genocidal than what others have done.

Interesting bit on page 86 of WB23: CS Plan A "complete and total genocide" is taken because "unlike most other life forms who are willing to relocate, the Xiticix are not".

This being a contrast policy illustrates that the CS are not dedicated to 'complete and total' genocide of all non-human races, nor most alien life forms. They simply want to pressure them to relocate with violence. We can of course continue to discuss how close they come to 'complete and total' just so long as we accept this is not their policy except for Xiticix and similar non-relocation species.

Shark_Force wrote:an operator, no matter how tough, cannot travel through the wilderness trading with people who do not exist.

There's a difference between the wilderness between CS-defended cities and the Wilderness outside of them.

Shark_Force wrote:a bandit, no matter how bloodthirsty and well-equipped and regardless of the number of friends they have, cannot raid a town that is not there. a caravan cannot go off into the wilderness and make profitable trades with nobody.

Bandits can raid town A and then hide unawares in town B. They can do so in civilized regions. Supernatural monsters can't do this. There exist towns that benefit from CS protections aganist the supernaturals even if those protects do not protect them from bandits.

Shark_Force wrote:this all speaks to the fact that there are perfectly normal people out there. there are towns that are capable of surviving bandit raids.

Which doesn't mean they can survive a Brodkil raid.

Shark_Force wrote:humanity is thriving, but it is thriving both in and out of the CS area of control.

There's a difference between an area of control and the wider area of benefit.

What places in North America have humans thriving bereft of indirect CS benefits even if the CS are not present enough to control them?

*remembering Erin Tarn getting rescued from a Lorica Wraith in a non-CS town by roaming SAMAS*

eliakon wrote:We start to notice that the majority of city states in North America are pretty decent places (Lazlo, New Lazlo, Tolkeen pre-war, Dewomer, Silverano, Arnzo, Char, Psiscape, Magestar, Mystic Triad, New Kenoria, Queens Harbor, Kindgsdal, Newtown, Los Alamos.....)

Dweomer... that place where more humans who know magic exist than those who do not.

Where 1 in 20 permanent citizens are a Greater Demon.

How well do you think ordinary humans are doing there?

Pre-war Tolkeen doesn't exist anymore, you may as well talk about pre-invasion CS.

Regarding how 'decent' these other places are; how safe do you think they are? How much do we actually know about their quality of life compared to what the CS provides?

How safe is it to live in Magestar (Mystic Triad is not a place, they are the trio who rule it). Same concern with New Lazlo. These small new places have high hopes but I have no idea how safe they are.

Admittedly Psyscape is probably a decent place, what with its being protected by an alien intelligence and in another dimension.

In what way is Kingsdale safer for humans or even d-bees? Their magic militia has 200 shifters, that's a lot of chances to accidentally unleash an army of winged demons on the populace, like what happened in Alistair's "Great City". This place embraces Juicer tech without regulation, and the Grim Reapers hang out in a bar here, those guys who worship a Horseman of the Apocalypse and create Murder Wraiths. Do any CS cities have this problem?

I don't know much about Arzno, New Kenora, Queen's Harbor or Silverano, so will have to pass for the moment.

Los Alamos is cool, but it benefits from CS proximities, and it is very small. It would even consider a CS alliance against Vampire Kingdoms, so they're cool.

Wasn't Newtown that place where the Juicer Uprising happened and it was taken over by aliens? Why is this a good place?

eliakon wrote:Lazlo (which is small and also constantly under siege from demons and monsters) has managed to thrive with out expelling outsiders, or genocide, or mass murder

Until Xiticix Invasion at least. Where Plato has represented the Kingdom in promoting genocide. Compare this to the only documented genocide in CS history (Joseph I's Magic Zone campaign) where we do not know if this was an officially approved decision by the CS or even Chi-Town government.

Nightmask wrote:when people go 'Rifts is a Post-Apocalypse setting', that's true only in a very technical sense.

So, true?

Nightmask wrote:It's centuries since the Cataclysm occurred

How long did the Dark Ages last after the collapse of the Roman Empire? How much easier did they have things?

Nightmask wrote:there are city/states and nations all over the Earth, the world has recovered and is much closer to a Wild West level with scattered pockets of civilization all over the place with larger nations having risen from the ashes. It's actually NOT a 'right after the end' Death World with everything trying to kill everything else and trying to do so all the time.

Depends on what you mean by 'right after' I guess.

Wild West with mega-damage and roaming demons isn't really the wild west...

cosmicfish wrote:Plato hasn't done half what any Prosek has done

How do you know what Plato has done? He's lived a long time.

Do you know that Plato didn't go through a human-eating century or two?

cosmicfish wrote:If I sat on my front porch with an M-60 and hosed down everyone who passed by I might well kill some bad people, and would arguably be keeping my family safer, but I would also kill a lot of innocent people and no one would call me anything but a bad guy.

This is not a good analogy for what the CS does. They pressure people to relocate and give way to human expansion. They do not simply kill every roaming D-Bee. The burbs are proof of this.

cosmicfish wrote:Most of the CS military is bad enough to be obvious villains.

I don't think I agree with that. Even the upper tier of the CWC statements was 40%.

eliakon wrote:I would be fascinated to see a justification of genocide as not violating the good alignment rules.....

That good-aligned people are participating in genocide (Xiticix Invasion) is probably a good indicator.

How about you tell us what part of good alignments make genocide a violation?

"Never harm an innocent" doesn't apply if the race you genocide is guilty of invading your planet.
"Never attack an unarmed foe" doesn't apply if the race you genocide is armed.

I'm not sure what else could apply besides these two. Life and freedom are valued by good people, but they can attack, harm and even kill people who they perceive to be threats to freedom or life. The CS view aliens as these things, guilty encroachers armed with magic and unknown natural abilities.

Nightmask wrote:most of those the CS kills are decent peaceful beings whose only 'crime' was not being human

Source?

cosmicfish wrote:Even in WWII Germany there are numerous known (and presumably many more UNknown) cases of soldiers refusing to participate in the genocide.

Although I believe this, I regrettably have not been exposed to much information about it. In 'X Company' there was a token 'good' German soldier who refused to shoot a little girl and tried to rescue her from other soldiers, but the data on this is pretty sparse/buried.

cosmicfish wrote:
Jorick wrote:The "reality" of the monsters they fight
The reality of the monsters is arguable (since I'm arguing it!),

Did Jorich say you couldn't argue it?

cosmicfish wrote:a great many of those targeted are either no threat at all or are a threat only because the know they are targets of the CS and have decided to shoot first!

How many is great?

Why do they opt to shoot first instead of just leaving CS territory or keeping their noses down?

"Standing your ground" when squatting on another person's property isn't peaceful.

cosmicfish wrote:while Drogue may have been hiding what he is doing, I don't recall the leadership being horrified about it.

How can you be horrified about what you don't know about?

Saving vs HF doesn't mean you approve of something, just that you've seen a lot of atrocity and take it in stride.

cosmicfish wrote:I can't find where Drogue was operating as a rogue, defying his superiors.

This was mentioned earlier in the thread. Coalition Wars 5 (Shadows of Evil) page 102 ("A Secret to Hide") saying "Death Camps were never sanctioned by the Coalition High Command or Emperor Prosek, neither of whom know anything about them."

eliakon wrote:the books have said explicitly that the Proseks are genocidal, that they are modeling their actions on the Nazis, and that the war in Tolkeen was supposed to kill everyone

We don't know in which ways the Proseks are modeling themselves after Nazis, so that is not necessarily evil. Partial model is not 100% model. You can model yourselves after Romans without having gladiatorial arenas, for example.

Where does it say the WoT is supposed to kill everyone and that the Proseks are genocidal?

Karl briefly tolerated Drogue's genocidal front-line tactics but could curb it at any moment to make it not a genocide, so that doesn't make himself genocidal.

Admittedly Joseph I did lead what is described as a genocide, but he wasn't the CS, he was a general within it and it's unclear if his purge received CS or Chi-Town approval beforehand.

eliakon wrote:They are fighting a small threat and a lot of imaginary threats

Yes, like when they accidentally protect so many small towns that they accidentally protected their #1 most-wanted fugitive from a Lorica Wraith-led slaver group. A "few hundred miles" from the Atlantic Ocean. The CS has repeatedly accidentally saved Erin Tarn, someone who usually is going to be trying to hide from them and avoid them. But even when they are outside CS territory, in danger, they still intervene when they see a 'commotion' and save a random town.

I don't think this is the exception, I think this is the norm. The CS do not just protect their own, they protect North America.

eliakon wrote:their fear is not justified. THATS THE POINT. The books make this explicit. The fear was deliberately created by the first Prosek. He MANUFACTURED the fear as a TOOL to fuel his ascension to power.

Assuming by 'the first' you mean Joseph I, I don't think he manufactured the army of winged demons who attacked the burbs or the planned-for-a-decade invasion by Alistair Dunscon.

Fear was not manufactured, it existed, and rightly so, it is a valid tool to be harnessed. Humans should be afraid of the world of Rifts Earth, it is incredibly dangerous.

Understand what any 1st-level Shifter is capable of doing, and understand why a human nation might see cities who not regulate this into nothingness as endangering the whole continent or planet.

Look at where the Mechanoids came from. The winged demons who wrecked the 'Burbs prior to Alistair's invention. These were accidents. This isn't even intentional evil-summoning like the 4 Horsemen or Nxla.

eliakon wrote:A path that he carved on the backs of hundreds of thousands of innocent dead in the FoM war.

Not sure where you got this number from, neutral scholars only estimate half of the 30k (15 000) who Joseph 1 executed were innocent.

Joseph also wasn't big on the propoganda/evilness like his son Karl was. People just really liked him, he didn't do shady politics.

eliakon wrote:The threats that literally every other nation on North America is also dealing with

and who bask in the shadow of CS stability and currency?

eliakon wrote:the Xixtic are a problem. But that is one that is inherent to living in North America, and is being faced by others, not just the CS.

The CS are doing more about it than most. WB23p85 "it has been the Coalition States who has been instrumental in uncovering crucial data". They release the data to Lazlo and "the Kingdom of Montreal" (not sure what that is) and even present enemies they're at war with like Tolkeen and FQ.

They keep their recognizable troops along Xiticix borders and also send disguised ones to invade Xiticix territory. Who else besides Lazlo is doing this? Plus Lazlo isn't equally holding back vamps in the south or engaging Soulharvest in the east.

Nightmask wrote:the lengths some go through to defend the CS and try to make them out as misunderstood good guys, humanity's last hope, or some other excuse for how they aren't the human supremacist, xenophobic

I don't see anyone here arguing that the CS are not human supremist or xenophobic, so I do not know why you have included that criteria.

CS, like Lazlo, has engaged in isolated genocidal acts, but that does not make them genocidal as a whole, or bad people.

Nightmask wrote:Their genocidal war against Tolkeen

Some genocidal battles on the front lines by Drogue that Karl looks away from in desperation because his men are being killed does not make the entire war genocidal.

Killer Cyborg wrote:They're not genocidal, though. At least not yet.

True. While genocide is merely 'plan A' for dealing with the Xiticix, they also have a non-genocidal plan B of containment for them. Lazlo on the other hand, has genocide as both plans A and B.

eliakon wrote:The CS is afraid of mages, and has committed Genocide

No, Joseph Prosek I, a CS general, and those under him committed a small genocide in the magic zone. It isn't clear he got approval from CS high command to do so.

Also you do not need to be evil or a bad guy to do genocide, unless you accept Lazlo and Plato are evil or bad guys, since they are doing genocide against the Xiticix, so I don't know why we keep bringing genocide up. Perhaps a branch-off "is genocide evil" or "which nations have done genocidal things" threads could be warranted.

eliakon wrote:So that Prosek can take over and gain absolute power.

That was not why the Magic Zone Genocide happened. Sedition's "Crisis Timeline" on page 97 was very clear about this. "Joseph Prosek the First was never convinced he was the right man for the job, and questioned his ability as a statsman till the day he died."

Does that sound like someone who did a genocide to take over and gain power? He only briefly took the position of acting chairman because their infighting caused the neglect of military tasks. He was nominated and elected (freely and openly). His Bloody Campaign was not done to gain power for himself, it was to avenge those lost in the Chi-Town massacre and to kill the evil people in the magic zone who were destabilizing the region, to make the Coalition States safe.

eliakon wrote:It is a deliberate, plan, one with malice aforethought to blame mages and aliens for the CS problems

It had nothing to do with malice, it was accurate. Mages and aliens attacked Chi-Town, they attacked the Coalition States.

eliakon wrote:under the pretext of solving that new found problem gaining and maintaining absolute power.

That's Karl and Second Joseph issues not First Joseph issues.

eliakon wrote:It is a pure and simple, willful deliberate lie built on more lies for a purely selfish goal.

You are exaggerating. Much of CS leadership has selfish goals and has lied, but it is not purely selfish motivation at work here. There are honest and altruistic motives at the core of what the CS does, which is protecting normal humans from the dangers of the world.

eliakon wrote:if genocide for personal power isn't evil then I am really at a loss as to what IS.

And yes, it has explicitly committed genocide. CWC page 21 second column second paragraph.

The 2-year campaign of genocide against the Federation of Magic (aka "the Bloody Campaign") was not done for personal power. I don't see where this was ever indicated. Sedition explicitly shows First-Joseph was hesitant about the power he gained as a result of this, he wasn't comfortable as a leader but went along with it when pushed into the seat.

He was trying to destroy hell-spawned mystics. The kind of people who accidentally summoned the demons who attacked the 'Burbs, or the ones who invaded Chi-Town under Alistair. For the safety of the people.

eliakon wrote:"I conduct a war of annihilation against the alien, the grotesque and the unnatural."

I'm not seeing the problem here. A war against things alien/grotesque is not war against ALL things alien/grotesque. Karl might call an ugly human grotesque but would not kill them.

He also says in his speech "go back". IE he's giving them the option, the warning to leave.

If you're going to take Karl at his word in 1 portion of the speech then you should also do so in others. Like when he says "an enemy obsessed with eradicating humanity from this Earth".

That is the type of enemy he is talking about, the enemy he is targeting. "I refuse to let my race be obliterated". He is speaking as one who perceives his race to bet the target of genocide. He doesn't want to "sacrifice my race to the alien hordes". Humanity has nowhere to run to, these invaders have places to go back to.

The inhuman enemies he's talking about are the wholes who would "murder our children". He is conducting a war of annihilation against those who do that, not something that is merely alien, but something alien and murderous.

The main problem I have with that speech is an anti-mutant bias that seems to have slipped in. Mutants cannot exactly "go back to their hellpits" when they are earth-natives like Psi-Stalkers or Psi-Ghosts (who he clearly accepts and allows to hold military rank) or Psi-Hounds (who were mutated by humans).

I think in the heat of the speech, this could've been overlooked. But it is possible upon later analysis that this one word possibly caused some controversy amongst mutant citizens of the CS and members of its army. D-bees/Aliens/Demons/Monsters on the other hand... all external as far as the CS knows.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:44 am**

eliakon wrote:I think one point that being missed here....
The CS is not accidentally fearing mages
The CS is not fearing mages for ignorance
The CS is not fearing mages because of the danger of the power
The CS is afraid of mages, and has committed Genocide.....
So that Prosek can take over and gain absolute power.
Its not an accident, or a mistake, or a misunderstanding.

Again, that depends on what you mean when you say "The CS."
If you're talking about the Coalition States government, the leaders who are in the know, then yeah... they're evil schemers.
If you're talking about the average citizen or average soldier, then they're the victims of evil schemes that dupe them into misunderstanding the situation.

And yes, it has explicitly committed genocide. CWC page 21 second column second paragraph.

The books use the word "genocide," but not correctly.
Do you think that the US campaign to destroy Al Qada was genocide?
What about the Salem Witch Trials?

then there is this gem
"I conduct a war of annihilation against the alien, the grotesque and the unnatural." Campaign of Unity speech CWC pg. 9 Emperor Prosek's own words.

Attempted genocide at worst, since it's still ongoing.

"Now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"
-Sideshow Bob

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:28 am**

If the spell Annihilate is any indication, it could just be something very destructive or damaging, not necessarily something meant to wipe you out.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:53 pm**

Eliakon, I don't disagree with the assertion that the CS as a government is evil toward it's enemies, and that from a certain point of view, those that it calls enemies are done so unjustly.

However, you need to remember that evil though he may be, Prosek loves his race, his people. He isn't sending them to die for nothing. He believes these acts to be necessary. He isn't twirling his mustache and having an evil snicker about all the d-bee children he's had gassed. He's guiding his race back to dominance of their own home.

He's going about it in a very wrong way, so wrong someone ought to straighten him out by any means necessary, but the idea isn't wrong.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:03 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:I think one point that being missed here....
The CS is not accidentally fearing mages
The CS is not fearing mages for ignorance
The CS is not fearing mages because of the danger of the power
The CS is afraid of mages, and has committed Genocide.....
So that Prosek can take over and gain absolute power.
Its not an accident, or a mistake, or a misunderstanding.

Again, that depends on what you mean when you say "The CS."
If you're talking about the Coalition States government, the leaders who are in the know, then yeah... they're evil schemers.
If you're talking about the average citizen or average soldier, then they're the victims of evil schemes that dupe them into misunderstanding the situation.

I mean the nation as a whole. The actions of its leaders which have deliberately and purposefully through lies and altering of facts have warped the minds of its citizens

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And yes, it has explicitly committed genocide. CWC page 21 second column second paragraph.

The books use the word "genocide," but not correctly.
Do you think that the US campaign to destroy Al Qada was genocide?
What about the Salem Witch Trials?

The word is used correctly
He attempts to wipe out the culture of magic, it sounds pretty clearly like they were shooting every magic user they saw.
SO yes I would say that it was genocide.
MORE to the point I would say that a person coming along and saying that the CS is not genocidal, a person who wants to refute the in book citations that say they are will need more than just a 'well I don't think that the evidence against me really exists.'
If you can provide an unambiguous, textually cited argument proving that the word is being used incorrectly then you might have a case. Simply trying to claim that 'well Case A is not genocide because the totally unrelated not similar cases B and C are not is just poof of bad analogy...nothing more.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:then there is this gem
"I conduct a war of annihilation against the alien, the grotesque and the unnatural." Campaign of Unity speech CWC pg. 9 Emperor Prosek's own words.

Attempted genocide at worst, since it's still ongoing.

"Now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"
-Sideshow Bob

So what your saying is that they have sat around on their thumbs and not implemented what the EMPEROR says they are doing.
That in the very war that the Emperor was talking about, they did not go forth and annihilate the alien?
That this is not proof that the very goal of the Siege on Tolkeen was the Tolkeen Genocide? That that genocide was not a mistake but mission accomplished?
Because I don't think that claim can be made when you have the Emperor clearly stating that his main goal is just such.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:27 pm**

Plus they had the deadboys hunting down refugees. They had standard jerk of evil overconfidence in charge of the group tracking them and the juicer liberal protecting the refugees.

They were like, "weeee murder and pain! FwahahHa", basically. It was comical,

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:31 pm**

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:I think one point that being missed here....
The CS is not accidentally fearing mages
The CS is not fearing mages for ignorance
The CS is not fearing mages because of the danger of the power
The CS is afraid of mages, and has committed Genocide.....
So that Prosek can take over and gain absolute power.
Its not an accident, or a mistake, or a misunderstanding.

Again, that depends on what you mean when you say "The CS."
If you're talking about the Coalition States government, the leaders who are in the know, then yeah... they're evil schemers.
If you're talking about the average citizen or average soldier, then they're the victims of evil schemes that dupe them into misunderstanding the situation.

I mean the nation as a whole. The actions of its leaders which have deliberately and purposefully through lies and altering of facts have warped the minds of its citizens

The nation as a whole IS accidentally fearing mages due to ignorance, though.
The nation as a whole is NOT persecuting mages so that Prosek can take over and gain ultimate power.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And yes, it has explicitly committed genocide. CWC page 21 second column second paragraph.

The books use the word "genocide," but not correctly.
Do you think that the US campaign to destroy Al Qada was genocide?
What about the Salem Witch Trials?

The word is used correctly

Nope.

He attempts to wipe out the culture of magic, it sounds pretty clearly like they were shooting every magic user they saw.

Magic is not a culture.
I refer you back to my two previous questions regarding Al Qada and Salem.

MORE to the point I would say that a person coming along and saying that the CS is not genocidal,

They're most definitely genocidal.
That's not the same as having committed genocide.

If you can provide an unambiguous, textually cited argument proving that the word is being used incorrectly then you might have a case.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide ... altext.htm
"intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"

"Mages" is not a national, ethnical, racial, nor religious group.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:then there is this gem
"I conduct a war of annihilation against the alien, the grotesque and the unnatural." Campaign of Unity speech CWC pg. 9 Emperor Prosek's own words.

Attempted genocide at worst, since it's still ongoing.

"Now honestly, did they ever give anyone a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"
-Sideshow Bob

So what your saying is that they have sat around on their thumbs and not implemented what the EMPEROR says they are doing.

I'm saying that the aliens, the grotesque, and the unnatural were not actually annihilated.
Also, that political speeches are not always necessarily the unvarnished truth, and are often filled with hyperbole and rhetoric.

He made a speech. People got hyped. They eventually attacked Tolkeen.
They did not go forth and start attacking any and all aliens, grotesques, and unnatural beings all over the place.

That in the very war that the Emperor was talking about, they did not go forth and annihilate the alien?
That this is not proof that the very goal of the Siege on Tolkeen was the Tolkeen Genocide?

No, it's not.
It's a political speech before a war.
Whether or not Tolkeen was genocide is far more dependent on actions than on speeches.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:44 pm**

Part of the problem is the changing definition of the term "genocide."

My dictionary from 1968 defines it as:
the systemic killing of a whole people or nation

Online dictionaries tend to define it as:
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation

Personally, I think that the new definition is bunk.
I don't think that the 9/11 attacks were genocide.
I don't think that the US hunting down members of Al Quada was genocide.
I don't think that Tolkeen committed genocide when it deliberately killed a large group of CS soldiers.

By the definition that I posted earlier, a person can be found guilty of committing genocide for killing a single person.

The newer definitions are watered down and open enough that by those definitions, the CS has most likely committed genocide.
But so has pretty much everybody else on the face of Rifts Earth.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:57 pm**

So every time you slay someone with your sledgehammer of eloquence, it's genocide?

The UN is going to need to have a talk with you, mister.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:44 pm**

"mages" may not be a nation, but "tolkeen" was.

and in answer to the question of whether the CS had the goal of extermination, i must refer again to the fact that their first attempt at conducting war was to launch enough missiles to wipe tolkeen off the map. unless the CS has recently obtained missiles that kill selectively rather than hitting everything in their area, that's a pretty clear statement of intent to kill everyone, not just military assets.

if there was a problem with the death camps, it wasn't that they were killing everyone. it was how they were killing everyone.

also, based on the fact that the response to casualties in the war due to poorly trained recruits from the 'burbs not being effective soldiers was basically to draft more and send them in with equally poor training... i don't know that i would be making the argument that the proseks care all that much about the plight of humanity. otherwise, they'd have given proper training like they did for all their other soldiers.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:26 pm**

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=147157&start=50#p2865106

As per Jefffar it would seem that arguing the definition of Genocide is not appropriate for this thread.
So either we are going to have to drop the topic, accept the usages in the published material (my personal favorite), agree to disagree, or find other points of context to discuss....

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:17 pm**

Shark_Force wrote:in answer to the question of whether the CS had the goal of extermination, i must refer again to the fact that their first attempt at conducting war was to launch enough missiles to wipe tolkeen off the map

I addressed this in an earlier reply, but CW1:Sedition talks about 2 missile attacks and neither fit your bill.

Page 105 talks about "Chalk's Folly" in 104 PA. Operation Fullbore did open with aerial bombardment that lasted nearly 3 days. General Phineas Chalk can be viewed as one of the trope-namers for the book though. He is desribed as a "seditious member of the upper command". He was ordered to keep Tolkeen "contained". Fullbore was launched without consulting Coalition High Command. Chalk was as much a rebel as Drogue was, his actions are not choices of the leaders of the CS.

Page 9 has a report from 105 PA by Major Yoblonksky. It is "Operation First Strike". This is nothing like Fullbore. It is a 'preemptive strike' testing the defenses that Fullbore revealed. It is not intended to kill everyone, they already know that doesn't work from Chalk's attack.

Is there some other instance of missile volleys you're referring to? Neither of these depict a CS-approved plan to wipe everyone out with missiles. Chalk/Drogue ignored chain of command and abused their authorities and were looked down on as failures for it. Just because they're Generals doesn't mean they reflect CS attitudes or its overall choices or policy.

Shark_Force wrote:based on the fact that the response to casualties in the war due to poorly trained recruits from the 'burbs not being effective soldiers was basically to draft more and send them in with equally poor training... i don't know that i would be making the argument that the proseks care all that much about the plight of humanity. otherwise, they'd have given proper training like they did for all their other soldiers.

There may not have been the time or resources to do that. Infrastructure can be delicate when you have to cover a lot of ground.

eliakon wrote:accept the usages in the published material (my personal favorite)

I'm all for that. We can distinguish between word-of-Kev usage and NPC usage as well. I would say, rather than rely on dictionaries/UN that we create our understanding of the word based upon how we see it used.

I just think, looking forward, we must acknowledge that Plato/Lazlo have a recent and stronger pro-genocide policy, than the CS does. Plus there are 2 principled CS troops who are engaging in genocidal engagements of the Xiticix. We should keep these facts in mind when we inject our own moral views about whether or not genocide is universally bad or evil.

Even if the G-word is more regularly applied to the CS, I think we should also fairly measure their documented actions against the documented actions of other groups, and also weigh whether or not they qualify even if not explicitly described using the term. The NGR's treatment of Gargoyles seems to hinge on this even if they are supposedly less G-prone than the CS.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:33 pm**

The Coalition States has a 'to be exterminated list'. It has non-demons on the list (like the Kremin).

While they may have some restraint in practice, especially on the more harmless types (while I'm sure CS soldiers kill Cactus People occasionally, I doubt even the CS actually puts effort into it, as opposed to the species considered 'threats'), the idea of wiping out other species is not one that in itself draws outrage when presented.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:57 pm**

eliakon wrote:I would say that a person coming along and saying that the CS is not genocidal, a person who wants to refute the in book citations that say they are will need more than just a 'well I don't think that the evidence against me really exists.'

Why is more needed? We have accepted that First-Joseph did a genocide (but not to gain power) and that Karl was considering plans and ended up tolerating some isolated front-line genocidal tactics by Drogue by looking the other way, and that they are considering genocide against the Xiticix but are willing to focus on containment if Lazlo wants to foot the bill.

None of what I've seen discussed so far paints them as being any more genocidal than Lazlo. They have considered genocidal approaches to what they see as an overwhelming threat who cannot be reasoned with, who will not back down and will not leave.

I was reading Triax 2 today and noticed these:

WB31p60: Unlike their CS allies, the NGR cannot abide by a policy of genocide against nonhumans.
WB31p65: the CS promotes the genocide of the nonhuman "alien invaders."

This means the CS allies of the NGR can abide a genocidal policy. I would say there is a difference between abiding a policy and liking it though, It also doesn't say "all nonhumans" so it may only mean specific ones, like the Xiticix.

The NGR is coming pretty close to genocide with their egg-destroying treatment of the Gargoyles, but I guess this means that if they are winning enough, they will stop short of completely annihilating them, something the CS would not do for the Xiticix.

This also means that the CS promotes genocide against invaders. I guess invading people is a culture we need to protect or something. The CS is clearly not promoting genocide on peaceful lurkers, like the ones in the burbs, so long as they shove off when they need to.

Alrik Vas wrote:they had the deadboys hunting down refugees

They? Who ordered it?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Part of the problem is the changing definition of the term "genocide."

My dictionary from 1968 defines it as:
the systemic killing of a whole people or nation

Online dictionaries tend to define it as:
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Have noticed this sort of problem occur with a lot of words.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:16 pm**

I think the Xiticix are something of a side-issue- They're a largely not-possessing-individuality threat as long as so much as one hive exists. Gargoyles, even, they're a species of sub-demons in a large collected aggressive nation.

Kremin! Swamp-Sludgers! Slurmphs!

"Designated as dangerous alien invaders, CS troops have had a standing order to destroy all Kremin on sight. Now, with new evidence of a Kremin invasion*, most people are likely to view them with suspicion and fear. Meanwhile, xenophobes among human and D-Bee alike are likely to side with the Coalition's position that the Kremin are dangerous invaders to be destroyed, and will hunt them down and kill them whereever they are found." -D-Bees of North America.

*A bunch of Kremin rift'd in along with demons who were attacking them. CS starting telling everyone it was a Kremin invasion where their demon slaves revolted. Note, this is after the initial kill order.

Alignment of Kremin? 25% Principled, 25% Scrupulous, 15% Unprincipled, 15% anarchist. 80% good or neutral.

Swamp-Sludgers, somewhat childlikely, mostly neutral and good, shy and cautious aliens. They're known for rescuing lost children and pets, but occasionally take shiny items, food, and tinkets from others. "Most have learned that Coalition and Free Quebec soldiers are D-Bee killers who attack Sludgers on sight."

Slurmphs. Blob/slug aliens. Again, fairly positive alignments. Known for eating and drinking large amounts. Notable to be generally likable and able to befriend almost anyone. "Slurmphs have been targeted by the Coalition Army due to their ugly, inhuman appearance, in a campaign of genocide. Over the last 35 years, the CS has slaughtered hundreds of thousands and wiped them out of Iowa, Missouri, and Arkansas. Most Slurmphs tend to give the Coalition States a wide berth, and hate and fear the CS."

Not just that they're killed on sight, but hundreds of thousands of them dead and wiped out several large areas of them.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:44 am**

Since the Slurpmph-killing is explicitly a genocide, and the mentioned reason is for ugliness/inhumanity, I concede that this is the worst-sounding thing I have heard of the CS doing.

Of course, one still has to make an attempt to salvage this.

It says 'due to their .. appearance' but not "solely due to", so there could be other motivating factors at work here. The ugliness just might make it easier to hate them.

What jumps out at me is the 'known for eating and drinking large amounts'. It's great they are likeable/friendly but... just how much do they eat? Could they compromise human food supplies? Could allowing them to spread lead to the starvation of humans? There were 'hundreds of thousands' of them. How long did it take to grow to that number?

Tribbles in Trek come to mind here. Incredibly cute, not directly harmful... but their spread can cause serious problems. Even peaceful creatures can endanger higher sentient life forms through indirect harm, by taking up space and compromising an ecosystem, ruining food supplies. Just look at how quickly they reproduce! An average of 5 young every 3 years, reaching maturity in average of 5.5 years. MDC limb-regeners so they don't die off easily compared to us. Where's the controls?

They're all mind-readers! They could learn all our secrets! Like where our cat hangs out, or where we keep our candies.

The mucus trail they leave everywhere is a hygiene and slipping hazard!

Sure, they might start out playing a good role, just eating your garbage... but what about when that's not enough? When they keep coming, keep reproducing? All of a sudden, they're eating fresh fruits from your orchards, or your cats! Go back to Melmac!

That's great that they're so great at gardening, but I don't know if they're good enough to make up for how much they'll end up eating. If they wanted to go on a diet, tend gardens and give the proceeds to humanity, that'd be acceptable, but I bet they're mostly doing it to enjoy it for themselves, using soil on Humanity's Homeland!

Plus they are prone to getting drunk, however peaceful they might be as happy drunks in casual situations, getting drunk regularly will make them ALCOHOLICS. That's a 20% chance of being mean/hostile/argumentative/quick-tempered. A 20% of being an impulsive risk-taker or agitated paranoid. That's a 40% chance of endangering others! Not to mention if they get suicidal due to depression/pessimism/sadness/moodiness they might endanger others around them on the way out.

Swamp Sludgers take shiny items and food? That could lead to starvation! What if they steal your shiny MD laser pistol when you need it to defend yourself against a murderous Brodkil? It's a bit if they have merely a Magpie-like "shiny shiny" attitude and don't mean ill, but regardless of their intention, it sounds like their instincts make them prone to endangering human life by interfering with essential material possessions needed to survive.

Plus they can accidentally fire weapons into crowds. Starting vehicles/machinery randomly is also very dangerous. If the CS were to spare them, the only place that would make sense is a ZOO. Perhaps they just don't have the resources to be that nice right now. Give it time, maybe later.

These guys are a replication nightmare as well, and the CS may not know how to neuter them without killing them. They might get shanked with a vibro-blade if they tried it more peacefully. 3.5 kids every 3 months? Average 14 a year possible? Reaturing maturity in 12 years and remaining so for 28? That's an average of 392 kids produced by the female over her lifespan if she keeps smushing.

The Kremen thing sounds like a misunderstanding. It even says other D-Bees may side with the Coalition in pursuing them. They pursue it as an Invasion so it is logical to respond in force to it, moreso than to other D-Bees they do not perceive to be as aggressive.

In CWC when the CS declared them dangerous alien invaders (100% true) their being peace-loving is merely what they claim. We don't really know anything. You can't read their minds to see if they are genuine because they have convenient psi-blockers.

For someone who loves peace they sure seem to like to go watch battles without it bothering them much. It's one thing for them to have a stun-jolt weapon for defense, but do they also need the energy-blast firing sword (how long does it take their sheath to regenerate those anyway?) or energy-firing fists that allow them to be ammo-free?

What's all that firepower FOR? They're probably just learning our weaknesses, biding their time, waiting to strike. Trying to get humans to drop their guard. MOST only fight in self-defense: that means some are fighting aggressively, starting fights, not defending themselves!

They may be 60% now, but back in CWC, the first who came seemed mostly anarchist/unprincipled. The CS first impressions were shaped by this.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:20 am**

Tor wrote:Of course, one still has to make an attempt to salvage this.

It says 'due to their .. appearance' but not "solely due to", so there could be other motivating factors at work here. The ugliness just might make it easier to hate them.

What jumps out at me is the 'known for eating and drinking large amounts'. It's great they are likeable/friendly but... just how much do they eat? Could they compromise human food supplies? Could allowing them to spread lead to the starvation of humans? There were 'hundreds of thousands' of them. How long did it take to grow to that number?

Compromising food stores is unlikely- they can eat almost anything. Bones, rotting garbage, twigs, bark, bugs, compost... all things part of their diet.

They are also noted as being exceptionally skilled farmers, and most are noted to be willing to help other farmers with their gardens or crops.

They do reproduce relatively rapidly, but they leave their young to fend for themselves which has got to impact mortality. And Slurmph don't *have* to breed or anything, they're just capable of it.

That's relatively rapid, but it's no tribble level. And, well, farmers.

Swamp Sludgers take shiny items and food? That could lead to starvation!

Hah, not that likely, they're like kids, they'll steal the meal you left out, they can't transport your food stores even if they wanted to.

Plus they can accidentally fire weapons into crowds. Starting vehicles/machinery randomly is also very dangerous. If the CS were to spare them, the only place that would make sense is a ZOO. Perhaps they just don't have the resources to be that nice right now. Give it time, maybe later.

Extermination still seems excessive...

The Kremen thing sounds like a misunderstanding. It even says other D-Bees may side with the Coalition in pursuing them. They pursue it as an Invasion so it is logical to respond in force to it, moreso than to other D-Bees they do not perceive to be as aggressive.

In CWC when the CS declared them dangerous alien invaders (100% true) their being peace-loving is merely what they claim. We don't really know anything. You can't read their minds to see if they are genuine because they have convenient psi-blockers.

They didn't know, but they offered shoot-on-sight orders based on said ignorance.

And the truth of the matter is they were scouting Earth and figured they could move 500,000 of their people into the *wilderness* which had more than enough unsettled space for them, in order to escape their homeland, which was being caught in the Minion War, hoping to either find a way to stem the tide of demons (in which case they move back), or at least warn the natives of earth of the Minion War.

Which, the CS's propaganda prevented them from doing.

So yea, truth was they were non-hostile, were looking for a specifically-unused place where they could hide people, and were looking to help the natives of Earth prepare for the war.

They may be 60% now, but back in CWC, the first who came seemed mostly anarchist/unprincipled. The CS first impressions were shaped by this.

Even then, being on an extermination list based on a group appearing neutral-ish seems excessive to me!

Especially when they finally did show up in bigger numbers, it was *fighting* demons, not serving them.

This is entirely the type of action the NGR disapproves of. Had they been in place, they'd have been cautious to be sure, careful in case of deception, but not have blown what turned out to be a warning of a greater threat.

Posted: **Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:46 am**

Shark_Force wrote:"mages" may not be a nation, but "tolkeen" was.

Yup.
What it comes down to there for me is that the CS didn't kill Tolkeen.
They just killed part of Tolkeen.
As I pointed out, I've been operating under the old-school definition where you have to actually eliminate a people for it to be genocide, not the new, watered-down version where it mostly loses any real meaning on Rifts Earth.
Granted- the new dictionary version is current, so I'm willing to just curse the dictionary and use that definition, but that just leaves us in a "The CS has committed genocide, Tolkeen has committed genocide...most powers on Rifts Earth have committed genocide, not to mention most groups of adventurers" situation.

and in answer to the question of whether the CS had the goal of extermination, i must refer again to the fact that their first attempt at conducting war was to launch enough missiles to wipe tolkeen off the map. unless the CS has recently obtained missiles that kill selectively rather than hitting everything in their area, that's a pretty clear statement of intent to kill everyone, not just military assets.

They have clean nukes, and were attacking a mega-damage city IIRC.
They might have possible expected Tolkeen to survive, although i wouldn't bet on it.

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