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Okay, I see what you're saying. Guns are weird, though. A bullet can cause massive trauma and the victim can continue operating within reason at times.

At others it can hit you in a seemingly harmless place and you die from shock.

I actually have had a lot of similar situations in games using the system I've mentioned. Critical hit, lots of damage, creature saves all day long, all the way until its at zero and dies anyway. Other times a vibro sword decapitates a gurgoyle. Crap happens.

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, I see what you're saying. Guns are weird, though. A bullet can cause massive trauma and the victim can continue operating within reason at times.

At others it can hit you in a seemingly harmless place and you die from shock.

I actually have had a lot of similar situations in games using the system I've mentioned. Critical hit, lots of damage, creature saves all day long, all the way until its at zero and dies anyway. Other times a vibro sword decapitates a gurgoyle. Crap happens.

Crap does happen... but some crap is a lot more likely than other crap.

If I were to want to simulate the kind of Golden BB shot where a random shot takes down something a lot bigger than it should, I'd use exploding dice to do it.
If you roll 2d6, and you get a 12, then you roll damage again and add it in. If you get another 12, then you keep repeating until you stop rolling 12s.
That allows for some extraordinary shots to occur... but with the kind of statistical rarity that they might deserve.
You COULD kill a 400 MDC Brodkill with a single shot to the head with a 2d6 MD weapon, but it'd be a very lucky shot.
Say there's something like 150 MDC in the head, and you shoot the eye, and the GM rules x3 damage, you'd still have to roll 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + >2 in order to get the kill.

Against an ordinary (250 MDC) brodkill with 100 MDC (IIRC) to the head, you'd need 12 + 12 + >10+ or so, which would be possible... just pretty darned rare.

Looks like the gripe is with damage capacity. In reality, a bullet and a fist are two very different types of damage, but in Palladium, they are the same. A kick attack does 2D6, but so does a 9mm bullet...what the heck? Ive seen plenty of Thai kickboxing matches where dudes are taking kicks repeatedly, but plug that guy in the chest with a Glock 18...and he is going down. It just doesnt make sense.

While bullets should vary with the amount of trauma they actually deal (a .22 is going to do a whole lot less than a 7.62x51mm), most bullets should be way more lethal than any bare hand to hand attacks. If not, UFC matches should end with dead people by the end of the first round.

In an SDC world that mimics reality, bullets should be doing at least X10 damage than what they are listing at. You take one shot to the chest and you are either dead, or almost dead. Even that .22 short round.

But really, damage should be only a fraction of what we are dealing with. in terms of ARMOR, we should look at the penetration value of the weapon, and how much penetration protection the armor provides...not how much Damage Capacity values it has. The Compendium for Modern Weapons covers these rules. They are a lot more realistic (save for the weak bullet damages still). Now, you can have your armored foe, which punches and kicks just bounce off of, and even .22 and 9mm rounds dont have a chance of breaking through...but a more powerful weapon or a well placed shot might take down that foe in one hit should it break the PV of the armor.

Kagashi wrote:Looks like the gripe is with damage capacity. In reality, a bullet and a fist are two very different types of damage, but in Palladium, they are the same. A kick attack does 2D6, but so does a 9mm bullet...what the heck? Ive seen plenty of Thai kickboxing matches where dudes are taking kicks repeatedly, but plug that guy in the chest with a Glock 18...and he is going down. It just doesnt make sense.

While bullets should vary with the amount of trauma they actually deal (a .22 is going to do a whole lot less than a 7.62x51mm), most bullets should be way more lethal than any bare hand to hand attacks. If not, UFC matches should end with dead people by the end of the first round.

That is certainly A gripe, and a fairly legitimate one.
But that's a gripe with SDC/HP, not so much with MDC. MDC beings work differently, as I pointed out. An SDC being cannot smother a grenade with its body and live, but a MDC creature can, as long as their MDC is not exceeded.

In an SDC world that mimics reality, bullets should be doing at least X10 damage than what they are listing at. You take one shot to the chest and you are either dead, or almost dead. Even that .22 short round.

Not really.
There are plenty of people who have been shot by .22 rounds and been okay, other than the wound. Compare the wound size of a .22 to that of comparable wound from a spear or sword, and the .22 is clearly less actual damage.
There are matters of system shock, and the bullet traveling around within the body over time, but neither of those things is actual damage.

Okay, here's a test. Want to know what you think.

Take a 1d4 md hold out pistol hooked up to a nuke generator then fire in 100-400 different places on a 20ft tall gargoyle, avoiding vital organs/head the whole time. You're basically just giving it a tan, it's a toddler trying to beat Mike Tyson with a razor blade, but you still dealt 400 mega-damage.

Death, or no death? How and why?

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, here's a test. Want to know what you think.

Take a 1d4 md hold out pistol hooked up to a nuke generator then fire in 100-400 different places on a 20ft tall gargoyle, avoiding vital organs/head the whole time. You're basically just giving it a tan, it's a toddler trying to beat Mike Tyson with a razor blade, but you still dealt 400 mega-damage.

Death, or no death? How and why?

I tend to think that if a toddler cut Mike 400 times, for the equivalent of at least one point of damage per cut, that Mike'd probably bleed out.
So I can see that being a legitimate death for a gargoyle.

Another issue with all of this is that with SDC/HP, you have two separate groups. You have your superficial damage (SDC), and you have your serious damage (HP).
Quite a few people on the boards, myself included, have argued that gunshot wounds in most games should be straight-to-HP damage, bypassing SDC.
In that case, a 5d6 SDC bullet becomes a lot more lethal even in straight-up combat.

With Mega-Damage, there's just the one pool. That might be the reason for the "MDC beings can smother a grenade with their body" rule, or perhaps it's the other way around.
An interesting house rule might be to peel off some of the overall MDC pool, and change that part to Mega Hit Points, allowing for more lethality in certain kinds of situations by allowing similar kinds of straight-to-HP attacks.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another issue with all of this is that with SDC/HP, you have two separate groups. You have your superficial damage (SDC), and you have your serious damage (HP).
Quite a few people on the boards, myself included, have argued that gunshot wounds in most games should be straight-to-HP damage, bypassing SDC.
In that case, a 5d6 SDC bullet becomes a lot more lethal even in straight-up combat.

With Mega-Damage, there's just the one pool. That might be the reason for the "MDC beings can smother a grenade with their body" rule, or perhaps it's the other way around.
An interesting house rule might be to peel off some of the overall MDC pool, and change that part to Mega Hit Points, allowing for more lethality in certain kinds of situations by allowing similar kinds of straight-to-HP attacks.

If you're willing to allow this kind of reasoning, I don't see why you have a problem with the other kinds. The system is all a metaphor. One tries to make it fit situationally. Some people in the thread have suggested simply RPing certain events without worrying about rolling at all. I like rolling the results of characters choices for reasons I have discussed previously. But how one rolls is a matter of GM choice. I can do my way, Alrik can do his way, and you can do a MD hit pool. Or whatever. As long as it's reasonable to everyone involved.

What does not make it UNreasonable is the fact that there's 400 MDC listed, because that 400 MDC is too broad a representation of "damage capacity" for every given situation.

Jorick wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another issue with all of this is that with SDC/HP, you have two separate groups. You have your superficial damage (SDC), and you have your serious damage (HP).
Quite a few people on the boards, myself included, have argued that gunshot wounds in most games should be straight-to-HP damage, bypassing SDC.
In that case, a 5d6 SDC bullet becomes a lot more lethal even in straight-up combat.

With Mega-Damage, there's just the one pool. That might be the reason for the "MDC beings can smother a grenade with their body" rule, or perhaps it's the other way around.
An interesting house rule might be to peel off some of the overall MDC pool, and change that part to Mega Hit Points, allowing for more lethality in certain kinds of situations by allowing similar kinds of straight-to-HP attacks.

If you're willing to allow this kind of reasoning, I don't see why you have a problem with the other kinds.

I'm not necessarily willing to allow it. I'm willing to entertain the notion, and put it out here for other people to contemplate.

No, it's the MHP thing. Critters have 1 health pool, damage in full is needed for death and that's the bottom line.

Which makes no sense. Every example of MDC creatures being too tough to die to sudden damage has been explained along the lines of, "that's what would happen if you're SDC. MDC is different."

But suddenly death of 1000 paper cuts is possible, because you did it's health I'm damage?

Sorry, I like it better when the rules make sense of the world, not when the world has to make sense of the rules.

You've lost me.

MDC creatures "work differently" than SDC. They are apparently immune to massive trauma to what would be considered sensitive areas in a normal being (smothering a grenade). Yet they can die from from blood.loss? How do they even suffer from blood loss when they can laugh off explosive shock like that?

Someone has to step in and explain it. The rules no longer make sense of the world on their own, the world has to instead make sense of the rules.

Instead, I just change the rules so the world makes more sense to begin with and stop the idea of exceptions at the beginning.

A 1-hit kill is just a provision for that purpose. You even work it differently for your own purposes as you started above. Suddenly certain attacks can kill without depleting the majority of MDC. Seems like a good solution, even if it isn't as extreme as mine.

Alrik Vas wrote:MDC creatures "work differently" than SDC. They are apparently immune to massive trauma to what would be considered sensitive areas in a normal being (smothering a grenade). Yet they can die from from blood.loss? How do they even suffer from blood loss when they can laugh off explosive shock like that?

Why are you equating hydrostatic shock and blood loss?
They're not the same thing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Another issue with all of this is that with SDC/HP, you have two separate groups. You have your superficial damage (SDC), and you have your serious damage (HP).
Quite a few people on the boards, myself included, have argued that gunshot wounds in most games should be straight-to-HP damage, bypassing SDC.
In that case, a 5d6 SDC bullet becomes a lot more lethal even in straight-up combat.

With Mega-Damage, there's just the one pool. That might be the reason for the "MDC beings can smother a grenade with their body" rule, or perhaps it's the other way around.
An interesting house rule might be to peel off some of the overall MDC pool, and change that part to Mega Hit Points, allowing for more lethality in certain kinds of situations by allowing similar kinds of straight-to-HP attacks.

Makes sense to me. I wish Palladium was consistent with their game mechanics.

-Auto dodge bonuses and auto parry bonuses do not act the same.
-SDC has HP, but MDC does not have "MHP".
-Technological targets have MDC by location, yet organic targets have one static value.
-and so on.

They really need to streamline how their mechanics work with a global setting, as opposed to explaining each rule individually. That would eliminate a lot of confusion and contradictions in the Megaversal System.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, I see what you're saying. Guns are weird, though. A bullet can cause massive trauma and the victim can continue operating within reason at times.

At others it can hit you in a seemingly harmless place and you die from shock.

I actually have had a lot of similar situations in games using the system I've mentioned. Critical hit, lots of damage, creature saves all day long, all the way until its at zero and dies anyway. Other times a vibro sword decapitates a gurgoyle. Crap happens.

Crap does happen... but some crap is a lot more likely than other crap.

If I were to want to simulate the kind of Golden BB shot where a random shot takes down something a lot bigger than it should, I'd use exploding dice to do it.
If you roll 2d6, and you get a 12, then you roll damage again and add it in. If you get another 12, then you keep repeating until you stop rolling 12s.
That allows for some extraordinary shots to occur... but with the kind of statistical rarity that they might deserve.
You COULD kill a 400 MDC Brodkill with a single shot to the head with a 2d6 MD weapon, but it'd be a very lucky shot.
Say there's something like 150 MDC in the head, and you shoot the eye, and the GM rules x3 damage, you'd still have to roll 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + >2 in order to get the kill.

Against an ordinary (250 MDC) brodkill with 100 MDC (IIRC) to the head, you'd need 12 + 12 + >10+ or so, which would be possible... just pretty darned rare.

If were trying to simulate snipers though that statistical rarity is extremely rare if not non existent. Maybe IF one is using exploding dice a person with the sniper skill rather than having a to hit bonus should have an exploding dice bonus that increases with level. Maybe the same with death blow being a bonus to exploding dice or enabling it in HtH.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, I see what you're saying. Guns are weird, though. A bullet can cause massive trauma and the victim can continue operating within reason at times.

At others it can hit you in a seemingly harmless place and you die from shock.

I actually have had a lot of similar situations in games using the system I've mentioned. Critical hit, lots of damage, creature saves all day long, all the way until its at zero and dies anyway. Other times a vibro sword decapitates a gurgoyle. Crap happens.

Crap does happen... but some crap is a lot more likely than other crap.

If I were to want to simulate the kind of Golden BB shot where a random shot takes down something a lot bigger than it should, I'd use exploding dice to do it.
If you roll 2d6, and you get a 12, then you roll damage again and add it in. If you get another 12, then you keep repeating until you stop rolling 12s.
That allows for some extraordinary shots to occur... but with the kind of statistical rarity that they might deserve.
You COULD kill a 400 MDC Brodkill with a single shot to the head with a 2d6 MD weapon, but it'd be a very lucky shot.
Say there's something like 150 MDC in the head, and you shoot the eye, and the GM rules x3 damage, you'd still have to roll 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + >2 in order to get the kill.

Against an ordinary (250 MDC) brodkill with 100 MDC (IIRC) to the head, you'd need 12 + 12 + >10+ or so, which would be possible... just pretty darned rare.

If were trying to simulate snipers though that statistical rarity is extremely rare if not non existent. Maybe IF one is using exploding dice a person with the sniper skill rather than having a to hit bonus should have an exploding dice bonus that increases with level. Maybe the same with death blow being a bonus to exploding dice or enabling it in HtH.

It's easy to simulate snipers: all you have to do is to simulate firing from a concealed position, because that's what sniping IS.
People love the idea of one-shot kills, and it's certainly possible using modern weapons against normal humans, but that doesn't mean that it's always possible against every enemy.
Snipers are not the weapon of choice against tanks, unless they carry a weapon sufficient to destroy (or significantly impair) that tank.
Snipers are not the weapon of choice against MDC targets, unless they carry a weapon sufficient to destroy (or significantly impair) that MDC target.
Being able to fire accurately from a concealed position does not guarantee any kind of ability to one-shot-kill every target that you might desire to kill.

Edit:
All that being said, I've maintained for quite a while now that the +2 strike bonus from the Sniper skill should be a Natural strike bonus, akin to the Provider rifle in Dinosaur Swamps.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, here's a test. Want to know what you think.

Take a 1d4 md hold out pistol hooked up to a nuke generator then fire in 100-400 different places on a 20ft tall gargoyle, avoiding vital organs/head the whole time. You're basically just giving it a tan, it's a toddler trying to beat Mike Tyson with a razor blade, but you still dealt 400 mega-damage.

Death, or no death? How and why?

I tend to think that if a toddler cut Mike 400 times, for the equivalent of at least one point of damage per cut, that Mike'd probably bleed out.
So I can see that being a legitimate death for a gargoyle.

Although in this case you have to factor in the gargoyles or other super natural creatures regeneration rates. The problem with a lot of these is not could the weapon kill it is could the weapon kill it fast enough. Could 100 people holding that 1d4 MDC pistol kill a gargoyle in a single round yes. While it seems like paper cuts its actually shooting equivalents of RPG rockets worth of damage.

Now if you take one pistol with unlimited charges to shoot at one obliging gargoyle just sitting there and taking it the question comes in could you do enough damage consistently enough to kill it. Without my books to get the actual bio regen rates I would say probably yes but it could radically slow down the rate of the kill and potentially wind up stalemating depending how fast the bio regen is and the rates of attacks.

Alrik Vas wrote:MDC creatures "work differently" than SDC. They are apparently immune to massive trauma to what would be considered sensitive areas in a normal being (smothering a grenade). Yet they can die from from blood.loss? How do they even suffer from blood loss when they can laugh off explosive shock like that?

Someone has to step in and explain it. The rules no longer make sense of the world on their own, the world has to instead make sense of the rules.

Instead, I just change the rules so the world makes more sense to begin with and stop the idea of exceptions at the beginning.

A 1-hit kill is just a provision for that purpose. You even work it differently for your own purposes as you started above. Suddenly certain attacks can kill without depleting the majority of MDC. Seems like a good solution, even if it isn't as extreme as mine.

One thing to keep in mind here as well is MDC "creatures" falls into a few categories. Supernatural MDC creatures are stupidly durable and tend to regenerate at unnaturally fast rates where you can see things like bio regen rates of 1d4x10 per minute or even faster. Then you fall to creatures of magic which tend to bio regenerate very quickly but are vulnerable to a few more things than true supernatural creatures are. Last you fall to MDC "monsters" things like dinosaurs or other random MDC things from the rifts. This category has very minimal to no bio regeneration speeds and some just fall back to normal SDC style heal over time natural rates of regeneration. They also have to breath air and is why things like dinosaurs can die from bleeding out from weapons designed to bleed them and can be drown/gassed out where as something like a demon totally ignores drowning/gassing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:MDC creatures "work differently" than SDC. They are apparently immune to massive trauma to what would be considered sensitive areas in a normal being (smothering a grenade). Yet they can die from from blood.loss? How do they even suffer from blood loss when they can laugh off explosive shock like that?

Why are you equating hydrostatic shock and blood loss?
They're not the same thing.

Answer my question first.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:MDC creatures "work differently" than SDC. They are apparently immune to massive trauma to what would be considered sensitive areas in a normal being (smothering a grenade). Yet they can die from from blood.loss? How do they even suffer from blood loss when they can laugh off explosive shock like that?

Why are you equating hydrostatic shock and blood loss?
They're not the same thing.

Answer my question first.

According to Dino Swamps, yes, they can die from blood loss. (Presumably this is IF the GM is using the optional blood loss rules, of course.)
As has been pointed out, bio-regeneration is an issue for a number of creatures, and bleeding might be quickly stopped.

So dinosaurs and subdemons are affected/unaffected the same way by damage, according to the rules?

Just looking for clarification. Or are the dinos in the swamp supernatural somehow?

What about creatures that aren't magical/supernatural in nature but are MDC anyway?

Basically, I'm asking because if the rules stare, "they're magically tough" then I can see it (though I'll still do it my way). But if it's just "they're tough, MDC is MDC", then I have a larger issue.

And yes, bleeding and hydrostatic shock can be very different. I was bringing up issues mortals face and applying them to MDC creatures. I don't see sufficient reason for MDC creatures to not be affected by these things (though as you point out, regeneration can compensate and I can agree on that).

Alrik Vas wrote:So dinosaurs and subdemons are affected/unaffected the same way by damage, according to the rules?

Just looking for clarification. Or are the dinos in the swamp supernatural somehow?

What about creatures that aren't magical/supernatural in nature but are MDC anyway?

Basically, I'm asking because if the rules stare, "they're magically tough" then I can see it (though I'll still do it my way). But if it's just "they're tough, MDC is MDC", then I have a larger issue.

It's one of those unfortunately unrealistic gaps in the setting. Sometimes things are Mega-Damage because they're magic. Sometimes they're Mega-Damage because they're just tough. Sometimes they're Mega-Damage because **** knows why.
But more and more they all get lumped in together.
It's like how originally there wasn't such thing as "Supernatural Strength," only a rule that Supernatural creatures could lift/carry more. Then CB1 came out, and Supernatural Strength was a thing, and it wasn't limited strictly to supernatural creatures. It wasn't so bad when it applied to superpowered individuals--they're effectively supernatural anyway. But by the time JU came out, you could get "the equivalent of [physics-breaking strength effects]" just by taking a lot of drugs.
In CB1, they also introduced (I believe) the concept that Mega-Damage creatures were all super-tough in ways beyond the normal 100:1 damage ratio.
Personally, I'd have had a lot more differentiation between different creatures. I liked in CB1 how most Giants, for example, were actually SDC creatures. But they turned them MDC for CB1r, which makes them less interesting.
Anyway, yes, as a rule Rifts treats MDC creatures from dinosaurs to demons roughly the same (except as noted in the creature descriptions and such).

And yes, bleeding and hydrostatic shock can be very different. I was bringing up issues mortals face and applying them to MDC creatures. I don't see sufficient reason for MDC creatures to not be affected by these things (though as you point out, regeneration can compensate and I can agree on that).

Hydrostatic shock and such may well simply be SDC force, regardless of whether it was caused by Mega-Damage attacks. Things can only splash so much, so hard.
I'm not sure why they ruled as they did.

It may well be SDC, but it sets a pretty boggling precedent for applying physics in the game. You just kind of have to sit back, nod your head and let numbers do the talking.

Alrik Vas wrote:It may well be SDC, but it sets a pretty boggling precedent for applying physics in the game. You just kind of have to sit back, nod your head and let numbers do the talking.

Actually, I think their reasoning might well have been that they didn't want MDC creatures like dragons dying every time a grenade went off on them, if you follow.
For both stylistic and practical reasons, there are a lot of MDC critters that run around without armor. The only way for them to survive and maintain that style would be if their bodies effectively were armor in a lot of ways.
Otherwise, they'd probably die off.

Totally, but even with my rule killing an adult Dragon like that would be...nigh on unique.

Alrik Vas wrote:Totally, but even with my rule killing an adult Dragon like that would be...nigh on unique.

Adult, sure.
Hatchlings, though...

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Totally, but even with my rule killing an adult Dragon like that would be...nigh on unique.

Adult, sure.
Hatchlings, though...

Well, they stay hatchlings for too long. There's a silly break where they go from 100-500 MDC....then suddenly they have thousands when they only gain about 30% size (hatchlings are something like 70% fully grown after a few months or something...It's kind of ridiculous).

Still, if a dragon is going to stand and fight against a weapon that can reliably deal a significant portion of its MDC per attack and make headshots, seems like they're the one with a problem.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Totally, but even with my rule killing an adult Dragon like that would be...nigh on unique.

Adult, sure.
Hatchlings, though...

Well, they stay hatchlings for too long. There's a silly break where they go from 100-500 MDC....then suddenly they have thousands when they only gain about 30% size (hatchlings are something like 70% fully grown after a few months or something...It's kind of ridiculous).

Still, if a dragon is going to stand and fight against a weapon that can reliably deal a significant portion of its MDC per attack and make headshots, seems like they're the one with a problem.

I'm picturing more hatchlings getting sniped or stabbed.
Minimum threshold is 50 MD, IIRC, and there are plenty of weapons that can do that kind of damage in one shot.

Sure thing. On two actions (called shot) that is inaccurate (-6 penalty), that if they don't dodge they can save against...seems like they'll be dropping like flies.

Alrik Vas wrote:Sure thing. On two actions (called shot) that is inaccurate (-6 penalty), that if they don't dodge they can save against...seems like they'll be dropping like flies.

-6 to strike isn't that bad. Not too tricky to get +7 strike on an aimed shot. And if you're sniping, the first shot can't be dodged.
The save gives them some protection... But not enough for my tastes.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Okay, I see what you're saying. Guns are weird, though. A bullet can cause massive trauma and the victim can continue operating within reason at times.

At others it can hit you in a seemingly harmless place and you die from shock.

I actually have had a lot of similar situations in games using the system I've mentioned. Critical hit, lots of damage, creature saves all day long, all the way until its at zero and dies anyway. Other times a vibro sword decapitates a gurgoyle. Crap happens.

Crap does happen... but some crap is a lot more likely than other crap.

If I were to want to simulate the kind of Golden BB shot where a random shot takes down something a lot bigger than it should, I'd use exploding dice to do it.
If you roll 2d6, and you get a 12, then you roll damage again and add it in. If you get another 12, then you keep repeating until you stop rolling 12s.
That allows for some extraordinary shots to occur... but with the kind of statistical rarity that they might deserve.
You COULD kill a 400 MDC Brodkill with a single shot to the head with a 2d6 MD weapon, but it'd be a very lucky shot.
Say there's something like 150 MDC in the head, and you shoot the eye, and the GM rules x3 damage, you'd still have to roll 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + >2 in order to get the kill.

Against an ordinary (250 MDC) brodkill with 100 MDC (IIRC) to the head, you'd need 12 + 12 + >10+ or so, which would be possible... just pretty darned rare.

If were trying to simulate snipers though that statistical rarity is extremely rare if not non existent. Maybe IF one is using exploding dice a person with the sniper skill rather than having a to hit bonus should have an exploding dice bonus that increases with level. Maybe the same with death blow being a bonus to exploding dice or enabling it in HtH.

It's easy to simulate snipers: all you have to do is to simulate firing from a concealed position, because that's what sniping IS.
People love the idea of one-shot kills, and it's certainly possible using modern weapons against normal humans, but that doesn't mean that it's always possible against every enemy.
Snipers are not the weapon of choice against tanks, unless they carry a weapon sufficient to destroy (or significantly impair) that tank.
Snipers are not the weapon of choice against MDC targets, unless they carry a weapon sufficient to destroy (or significantly impair) that MDC target.
Being able to fire accurately from a concealed position does not guarantee any kind of ability to one-shot-kill every target that you might desire to kill.

Edit:
All that being said, I've maintained for quite a while now that the +2 strike bonus from the Sniper skill should be a Natural strike bonus, akin to the Provider rifle in Dinosaur Swamps.

Hmm, excellent points. That being said you have frequently spoken out about many of those sufficient weapons being power creep, rather than championing them being a rarity or designed specifically for sniping.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Sure thing. On two actions (called shot) that is inaccurate (-6 penalty), that if they don't dodge they can save against...seems like they'll be dropping like flies.

-6 to strike isn't that bad. Not too tricky to get +7 strike on an aimed shot. And if you're sniping, the first shot can't be dodged.
The save gives them some protection... But not enough for my tastes.

And that's okay.

Though what kind of weapons can commonly do 50+ with a single, called shot? Gotta remeber bursts/pulses don't count as single shots. You'd need a mini-missile, or an expensive, specialized weapon that might be uncommon.

Or if you're buff, a strong melee attack, but sixth sense becomes an issue at that point.

Heh, sorry, say it's fine them keep blabbing. O.o

As of RUE, I believe you can make Called Shots with pulses.
Forget where missiles stand.

That being the case (I was unaware), I might adjust the rule after all.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Sure thing. On two actions (called shot) that is inaccurate (-6 penalty), that if they don't dodge they can save against...seems like they'll be dropping like flies.

-6 to strike isn't that bad. Not too tricky to get +7 strike on an aimed shot. And if you're sniping, the first shot can't be dodged.
The save gives them some protection... But not enough for my tastes.

And that's okay.

Though what kind of weapons can commonly do 50+ with a single, called shot? Gotta remeber bursts/pulses don't count as single shots. You'd need a mini-missile, or an expensive, specialized weapon that might be uncommon.

Or if you're buff, a strong melee attack, but sixth sense becomes an issue at that point.

Heh, sorry, say it's fine them keep blabbing. O.o

Think the ATL from SA.
Plasma weapons are also out there doing that much as does the main gun of a tank.

Also, if you haven't eliminated the rules for x2-x3 damage on a crit., or if you allow auto crits on sneak attacks, that makes a lot more weapons viable.
NG-P7 does an average of 25 MD, so x2 damage would knock that up to 50 on an average crit.
Average damage for 5d6 is 17.5, which would beat 50 MD on x3 damage.
So that kind of thing would be a possible factor.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, if you haven't eliminated the rules for x2-x3 damage on a crit., or if you allow auto crits on sneak attacks, that makes a lot more weapons viable.
NG-P7 does an average of 25 MD, so x2 damage would knock that up to 50 on an average crit.
Average damage for 5d6 is 17.5, which would beat 50 MD on x3 damage.
So that kind of thing would be a possible factor.

Since I'd been going off single shots rather than pulses, and the fact that ion/plasma/particle beams are generally less accurate (they tend to use wp heavy) it's been working out pretty well.

But if the rules are different for bursting, I can probably ratchet up the minimum for creatures with over 300 MDC.

Alrik Vas wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, if you haven't eliminated the rules for x2-x3 damage on a crit., or if you allow auto crits on sneak attacks, that makes a lot more weapons viable.
NG-P7 does an average of 25 MD, so x2 damage would knock that up to 50 on an average crit.
Average damage for 5d6 is 17.5, which would beat 50 MD on x3 damage.
So that kind of thing would be a possible factor.

Since I'd been going off single shots rather than pulses, and the fact that ion/plasma/particle beams are generally less accurate (they tend to use wp heavy) it's been working out pretty well.

+2 on an Aimed shot. +3 from a good laser targeting system. +2 for the Sniper skill. That negates the -6 strike penalty, with +1 to spare. So you'd need a 7+ to hit, which means a 70% hit chance.
Not perfect, but not too bad, and that's without leveling up.

But if the rules are different for bursting, I can probably ratchet up the minimum for creatures with over 300 MDC.

Not with bursts in general, just with pulses.
RUE 361
This happens so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast. It counts as one melee attack and suffers no penalty to strike except on an Aimed or Called Shot, in which case any strike bonus is reduced by half (round down).

Since the pulse now counts as a single blast, I supposed it could work in conjunction with the Sniper skill. So it could work out as listed above, BUT "any strike bonus is reduced by half" on a Called Shot with a pulse, so you'd either be +0 or -3 to strike depending on how you calculate it out. That should slow dragon-hunters down... but such weapons are pretty common.

You need 11, called shots are 12 base I thought.

And yes pulses. Just misspoke. Though on it counting as a true single shot for the purposes of the Sniper skill, I'd say sure.

Though according to the rules, if you aim and called shot together, it's 3 actions. Sure, from surprise, it doesn't mean much, but really, getting ambushed is usually pretty bad, to say the least.

The 12 was scrapped in favor of it taking an extra attack.

And yeah, 3 attacks per shot is best used for the FIRST shot in an ambush.

Ah, well, I don't scrap it. So there's that. Then again, in my actual play, called shots happen right away, but we're not getting into those specifics.

Kagashi wrote:I wish Palladium was consistent with their game mechanics.
-Auto dodge bonuses and auto parry bonuses do not act the same.

They're consistent in Rifts, the only problem is in HU

Kagashi wrote:-Technological targets have MDC by location, yet organic targets have one static value.

Many non-tech MDC monsters have hit locations.