Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[Tiree]

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

I could have sworn the sensor spotted the engine in Cyclone Mode. The whole Cyclone in PA Mode. I could have sworn something similar when the Gallant is in use. The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

[jaymz]

Well when producing power it is likely to run though the mecha itselfas the systems throughout the mecha are being powered by PC and not just innuse by the engine. So that would explain seeing it throughout when in use and why when Protoculture power is used you see it that way. Those same types of systems not using PC power would still be getting powered, they just wouldn't light up the sensor as PC power generation and use does.

[Nightmask]

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

I could have sworn the sensor spotted the engine in Cyclone Mode. The whole Cyclone in PA Mode. I could have sworn something similar when the Gallant is in use. The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

That's not a reasonable conclusion though. The cyclone in idle mode actually drawing on the protoculture power cell/engine causing it to give off an active signature makes far more sense same with the Gallant, and the Dam could have had active protoculture power sources somewhere (they certainly wouldn't have any reason for 'protoculture chips' to be built into the dam, unlike back-up power generators for emergencies and nothing supports the idea that said chips create a detectible protoculture signature).

[Seto Kaiba]

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

I could have sworn the sensor spotted the engine in Cyclone Mode. The whole Cyclone in PA Mode. I could have sworn something similar when the Gallant is in use. The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

It tracks the energy being produced, not the engine itself... so anything using that unique bio-energy that the protoculture fuel produces is going to light up. If it's not using or releasing that bio-energy, then it should not (and would not) appear. So, for instance, a Cyclone in Armor Bike mode would only be lighting up the engine's consumption of that energy to provide motive power. When that same protoculture bio-energy is being piped around the whole frame to drive the actuators that make the Ride Armor configuration work, then the body of the powered exoskeleton would be visible too. The Gallant? Well it's powered entirely by a PC E-clip, so that energy is circulating through the entire device when it's switched on... it isn't just the ammunition to make an energy beam, it's also the power source for the mechanisms that control the weapon.

Per the text of the RPG, the dam could be easily explained as using hydroelectric power to generate the EM field necessary to induce energy generation in protoculture...

A "protoculture chip" as a microprocessor wouldn't be emitting a protoculture bio-energy signal because if it's not powered by bio-energy emitted by a protoculture power source, it wouldn't be releasing bio-energy, and it also wouldn't be consuming any, it would just be conducting electricity as an integrated circuit does...

[guardiandashi]

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

I could have sworn the sensor spotted the engine in Cyclone Mode. The whole Cyclone in PA Mode. I could have sworn something similar when the Gallant is in use. The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

That's not a reasonable conclusion though. The cyclone in idle mode actually drawing on the protoculture power cell/engine causing it to give off an active signature makes far more sense same with the Gallant, and the Dam could have had active protoculture power sources somewhere (they certainly wouldn't have any reason for 'protoculture chips' to be built into the dam, unlike back-up power generators for emergencies and nothing supports the idea that said chips create a detectible protoculture signature).

the thing is and this is where MY interpretation comes in.. the cyclone is actually an argument (in a way) as well as the alpha FOR the macross and southern cross variable mecha to require /have "some" protoculture systems as part of the transformation system, actually specifically because those units CANNOT transform out of their full vehicle modes without the protoculture power source active. the logic being that the robotech transformation system does in some way REQUIRE protoculture (energy or systems) to work.

I actually have no issues with non transformable units to not have use protoculture (although I would actually argue the first generation units did in fact use protoculture to get the units to function) the southern cross due to limited supplies of protoculture, (and more refined systems) cut their use of protoculture to an absolute minimum to make stuff work.
the ref "new generation stuff they never really had a shortage so they (well they did but resolved it with the second matrix that the zor clone (rem?) and dr lang made that made psudo protoculture it "worked" but wasn't as "good"

[Nightmask]

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

I could have sworn the sensor spotted the engine in Cyclone Mode. The whole Cyclone in PA Mode. I could have sworn something similar when the Gallant is in use. The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

That's not a reasonable conclusion though. The cyclone in idle mode actually drawing on the protoculture power cell/engine causing it to give off an active signature makes far more sense same with the Gallant, and the Dam could have had active protoculture power sources somewhere (they certainly wouldn't have any reason for 'protoculture chips' to be built into the dam, unlike back-up power generators for emergencies and nothing supports the idea that said chips create a detectible protoculture signature).

the thing is and this is where MY interpretation comes in.. the cyclone is actually an argument (in a way) as well as the alpha FOR the macross and southern cross variable mecha to require /have "some" protoculture systems as part of the transformation system, actually specifically because those units CANNOT transform out of their full vehicle modes without the protoculture power source active. the logic being that the robotech transformation system does in some way REQUIRE protoculture (energy or systems) to work.

I actually have no issues with non transformable units to not have use protoculture (although I would actually argue the first generation units did in fact use protoculture to get the units to function) the southern cross due to limited supplies of protoculture, (and more refined systems) cut their use of protoculture to an absolute minimum to make stuff work.
the ref "new generation stuff they never really had a shortage so they (well they did but resolved it with the second matrix that the zor clone (rem?) and dr lang made that made psudo protoculture it "worked" but wasn't as "good"

Except those mecha don't have any protoculture involved in their design and certainly not as their power systems, which is what the protoculture sensor detects. So it's quite contrary to the actual material to say that they somehow require protoculture somewhere to work or transform.

[Seto Kaiba]

the thing is and this is where MY interpretation comes in.. the cyclone is actually an argument (in a way) as well as the alpha FOR the macross and southern cross variable mecha to require /have "some" protoculture systems as part of the transformation system, actually specifically because those units CANNOT transform out of their full vehicle modes without the protoculture power source active.

As interpretations go, it's questionable at best... apart from that one arse-backwards attempt by Macek at a post-facto explanation for protoculture that was summarily tossed out by Harmony Gold when they brought in Tommy Yune to fix Macek's mess, there has never been anything to indicate that protoculture was necessary with respect to transforming mecha. Indeed, the transformation system is just a different set of actuators... there's no need for them to be any different, technologically, from the actuators that make any non-variable mecha move. There's nothing really out-of-the-ordinary about the transformation mechanisms... it's done by electromagnetic actuators and hydraulics. You don't need the kind of empathic link nonsense or thinking cap system to make a humanoid robot work, you just need a powerful computer... and we know they have those. If it weren't for material-strength issues, we could quite possibly build something like that here and now... no protoculture need apply. (Hell, I've seen more insane nonsense than transforming robots accomplished using just mundane materials... a ferrofluid motor, for pity's sake.)

You'd think that, if one of the advantages of using protoculture was the ability to make transformable mecha, someone besides humanity would've come up with one. Yet the only one that ever appears is an Invid copy of a human mecha.

From the RPG standpoint, if there was a protoculture power system necessary to make transformation work... it's be mentioned in the rules as a key system.

[ShadowLogan]

Except that to emit anything there has to be a usage of said thing. In order to emit PC energy it has to use PC energy which the books go out of their way to show they do not have.

Transistors though can be used to alter a signal to amplify, rectifi, modulation. So the signal coming into the transistor componet is not always going to be the same signal that comes out. Which can also work for PC in this role, normal signal comes in, but the outgoing signal is "bio-energy" since we know PC is in "chip" form, and normal chips operate like transistors, so there could be PC transistor elements.

The main problem with the PC signature, is no one really knows what it is actually characterizing. We know that it is connected with PC use sure, but what it actually is a big fat unknown.

But if they're talking a pressure vessel or other fluid container used for vehicular power, "recharge" would be the correct term.

But where do they actually establish that it is in fact what they mean. That works for the standard mecha canisters sure, but for the odd ball item that certainly isn't using the standard canister (ex H-90), it could be something else that holds a charge from a PC (thus bio-energy).

Yes, but if the rules don't specifically mention something...

Which is where common sense comes in. And the Rules specifically state the mecha in question are supposed to be detectable, which requires some active PC energy. A GM could just as easily take the view that the later books got it wrong about the ASC/RDF mecha fuel.

Onto circuit boards in what context? The show doesn't say. If protoculture is being used as a semiconductor material for integrated circuits, it wouldn't be consuming or generating energy, it would merely be a conductor for microvoltage electricity, and thus under the definitions in the book would not generate any emissions that the Invid could detect.

Agree the show doesn't state the destination, but it is not a stretch for those components (or similar) to find their way in to where we are looking as we don't know the ultimate destination for those parts.

While Capacitors and Transistors can collect energy and discharge energy, the use of PC in those roles may alter the nature of the energy from "normal energy" to "bio-energy" as far as the IPTS is concerned (and as mentioned above Transistors can alter the nature of the incoming signal depending on the role). Especially sense we can both agree that we don't really know what is being detected, only that it is linked with using PC. So using PC as a semi-conductor could be the same as "burning" the stuff for fuel as far as the IPTS is concerned.

They shouldn't need to mention them being invisible, because the rules clearly state only mecha that rely on protoculture power systems are invisible to those sensors, and the Masters Saga source book clearly states those mecha use nuclear fusion or fuel cells. Furthermore, the New Generation source book explicitly states that not using protoculture makes a vehicle invisible to the Invid sensors... and the specific example used is, shockingly, a Southern Cross Army vehicle.

yes they should have to mention it explicitly as those mecha are explicitly mentioned as being detectable, unlike the Banshee which was never specified to be on the list to begin with.

In order to actively be using protoculture energy, the vehicle or device would need to have a protoculture power source aboard it, per the rules. Only power generation produces protoculture energy emissions.

No actually it does not need to have a PC engine/reactor to provide the power. The rules put an emphasis (italtic, bold, underline, etc) that it has to use PC energy, not that it has to be powered by PC.

Does anyone have any screen caps of the Protoculture Sensor in use?

Off hand. No. I know that Robotech Research has a single screen cap of the motorcycle mode from NG#2. For the most part we don't get to see the PS POV shots very often.

The Dam was lit up like a christmas tree... etc..

The Damn IIRC dialogue had Protoculture Flares in place. They look more like Spotlights, so maybe it was the equivalent of looking into a bright light and seeing spots for the sensor.

Protoculture Sensor doesn't just target the engine where the fuel is in use. It's interesting to see how the energy signature is not just in the engines. This is why I go for the whole Protoculture Chip.

That's why I would go that the sensor is not imaging "combustion" itself, but something else.

[Seto Kaiba]

Transistors though can be used to alter a signal to amplify, rectifi, modulation. So the signal coming into the transistor componet is not always going to be the same signal that comes out. Which can also work for PC in this role, normal signal comes in, but the outgoing signal is "bio-energy" since we know PC is in "chip" form, and normal chips operate like transistors, so there could be PC transistor elements. [...]

Which stills brings us back to the complete and utter non-existence of protoculture chips in the RPG, so you may as well let this entire unfounded line of inquiry go...

Yes, but if the rules don't specifically mention something...

Which is where common sense comes in. And the Rules specifically state the mecha in question are supposed to be detectable, which requires some active PC energy. A GM could just as easily take the view that the later books got it wrong about the ASC/RDF mecha fuel.

See? The same problem from cherry-picking I've pointed to before. The rules specifically state that all those mecha are detectable because they're using protoculture energy... energy which comes from the consumption of protoculture fuel in an engine, generator, reactor, cell, etc.... systems that, per later books, aren't present in those mecha. You can't make a cogent argument to defend that one line, because the actual text from the rest of the RPG doesn't support it.

Agree the show doesn't state the destination, but it is not a stretch for those components (or similar) to find their way in to where we are looking as we don't know the ultimate destination for those parts.

Considering there's virtually nothing said about "protoculture chips", and that the most likely explanation with the verbiage used is that the protoculture is a semiconductor not an energy source in that application, there should not be any emissions... never mind that said technology is never connected with ANYTHING EVER.

yes they should have to mention it explicitly as those mecha are explicitly mentioned as being detectable, unlike the Banshee which was never specified to be on the list to begin with.

Y'see, the entire argument that these mecha are supposedly detectable hinges on that one, flawed assumption about what powers those mecha. The actual text of the rules states that the only thing the Invid detect is an active protoculture power source and the device using the output of same. That technology is not present on the mecha in question per their official stats, so the claim you're repeatedly making doesn't stand up on even a basic inspection.

The Banshee's entry in the New Generation book clearly indicates that not being protoculture-powered makes vehicles invisible to Invid sensors. There's no getting around that. It fits perfectly with the text of the rules from the core book, which say that the Invid detect protoculture-driven engines, reactors, and so on. There has been no mention of any application of protoculture beyond power generation that is detectable.

[ShadowLogan]

Which stills brings us back to the complete and utter non-existence of protoculture chips in the RPG, so you may as well let this entire unfounded line of inquiry go...

Not really an issue. Its not like the RPG gives a complete component break down past a certain level.

energy which comes from the consumption of protoculture fuel in an engine, generator, reactor, cell, etc....

Actually it doesn't since we don't know what the nature of the detected signal actually is. It may be something that doesn't require consumption at all. Plus the Regis statement in the HDBE trap suggests that PC signals have a bandwidth range given the expected modulations and such, instead of a specific set "frequency".

Considering there's virtually nothing said about "protoculture chips", and that the most likely explanation with the verbiage used is that the protoculture is a semiconductor not an energy source in that application, there should not be any emissions... never mind that said technology is never connected with ANYTHING EVER.

I agree there is virtually nothing said about the PC Chips, but they had to be producing them for something to be mentioned.

Even in a semiconductor role, there will be energy emissions when in use: electro and magnetic fields and heat due to the flow of electrons, which they can also be used to manipulate in the larger scheme of things.

The actual text of the rules states that the only thing the Invid detect is an active protoculture power source and the device using the output of same.

The actual text also singles out those specific mecha to be using PC energy though. There are several ways for the statement to be true in the Main Book and not break the other books:
-Era conversion (NG SB mentions this for 2 ASC Mecha in IMUs and implies it is pretty normal, even some of the conventional vehicles mention PC conversion, the UEDF salvage table doesn't allow for salvage of fuel of any kind not present in a mecha unlike the UEEF table on the same page)
-the mecha are using PC energy in some form, be it SLMH containing PC that is consumed (as we don't know what made SLMH production possible), some type of false-positive signal, PC usage is at a component level that is not mentioned or considered by the writers.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not really an issue. Its not like the RPG gives a complete component break down past a certain level.

Yes, it really and truly IS an issue... because, unless the official stats for those vehicles in the RPG itself list some form of protoculture aboard those vehicles, there isn't any. Inconveniently enough (for your argument anyway), there is no mention of protoculture ANYTHING aboard any of those vehicles. Therefore, under the rules, as written, for the Invid sensor systems they are not detectable. Unless it is there, in print, it is NOT there.

energy which comes from the consumption of protoculture fuel in an engine, generator, reactor, cell, etc....

Actually it doesn't since we don't know what the nature of the detected signal actually is.

Funny, that... because the RPG's text explicitly identifies that the Invid detect protoculture-powered vehicles, mecha, and other hardware and never once refers to any other condition for detection. Unless the mecha (or vehicle, or device) is protoculture-powered, meaning it uses some protoculture power source like those which are explicitly listed in the text (engines, generators, furnaces, cells, etc.), it does not use emit a protoculture energy signature. Even the bio-emulator uses protoculture power sources to generate its protoculture energy signal.

I agree there is virtually nothing said about the PC Chips, but they had to be producing them for something to be mentioned.

True, but there's no proof that they went into mecha that we know for a fact in both canon and the RPG did not use protoculture... they are most likely starship components, since starships were the only area in which humans were using protoculture prior to the adoption of the New Generation mecha.

Even in a semiconductor role, there will be energy emissions when in use: electro and magnetic fields and heat due to the flow of electrons, which they can also be used to manipulate in the larger scheme of things.

Yes, but the Invid don't detect electromagnetic fields or infrared radiation... they detect the bio-energy that protoculture emits as a power source.

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, it really and truly IS an issue... because, unless the official stats for those vehicles in the RPG itself list some form of protoculture aboard those vehicles, there isn't any. Inconveniently enough (for your argument anyway), there is no mention of protoculture ANYTHING aboard any of those vehicles. Therefore, under the rules, as written, for the Invid sensor systems they are not detectable. Unless it is there, in print, it is NOT there.

No it is not an issue. The IPTS description states they have them actively using PC energy. There really isn't a need to repeat it I would think. There IS a need to explicitly state they are invisible to the IPTS IF they are explicility mentioned as being detectable.

Funny, that... because the RPG's text explicitly identifies that the Invid detect protoculture-powered vehicles, mecha, and other hardware and never once refers to any other condition for detection. Unless the mecha (or vehicle, or device) is protoculture-powered, meaning it uses some protoculture power source like those which are explicitly listed in the text (engines, generators, furnaces, cells, etc.), it does not use emit a protoculture energy signature. Even the bio-emulator uses protoculture power sources to generate its protoculture energy signal.

The text explicitly puts an emphasis on "actively using PC energy" not that they are powered by PC (see below).

True, but there's no proof that they went into mecha that we know for a fact in both canon and the RPG did not use protoculture... they are most likely starship components, since starships were the only area in which humans were using protoculture prior to the adoption of the New Generation mecha.

There's no proof one way or the other where those chips actually ended up.

It is also untrue that starship components are the only place PC was in use, given that dialogue establishes Reflex Furnaces at Sara Base and Alaska Base (IINM), and definatly in use on mecha (Monster Destroid, PC and RF are specifically mentioned).

Yes, but the Invid don't detect electromagnetic fields or infrared radiation... they detect the bio-energy that protoculture emits as a power source.

On the contrary they do detect electromagnetic fields (#6 just after the IPTS entry which is #5). IINM that is established in "Metamorphosis" in triangulating Scott's position (since radio waves are electromagnetic in origin).

You also miss the point. Even semi-conductors can be made to emit energy that can be detected. So PC acting as a semi-conductor could emit energy in those two areas (EMF and IR) specifically, but it could also be emitting Bio-Energy at the same time.

[Seto Kaiba]

No it is not an issue. The IPTS description states they have them actively using PC energy.

Which, per the text of the RPG, indicates they're protoculture-powered... but their specific stats clearly show us that's not the case. There is no defending that obvious an error.

The text explicitly puts an emphasis on "actively using PC energy" not that they are powered by PC (see below).

The only source of protoculture energy specified by the text of the RPG is protoculture power sources... so your objection is still incorrect.

There's no proof one way or the other where those chips actually ended up.

If it's not in the RPG, it doesn't matter... unless you want to houserule it in, but that's not what we're talking about, so you can drop the chip nonsense.

It is also untrue that starship components are the only place PC was in use, given that dialogue establishes Reflex Furnaces at Sara Base and Alaska Base (IINM), and definatly in use on mecha (Monster Destroid, PC and RF are specifically mentioned).

Not in the RPG. Try again, friend.

On the contrary they do detect electromagnetic fields (#6 just after the IPTS entry which is #5). IINM that is established in "Metamorphosis" in triangulating Scott's position (since radio waves are electromagnetic in origin).

Again, we're talking about the RPG... if you want to houserule in other stuff from the show, that's your own business.

You also miss the point. Even semi-conductors can be made to emit energy that can be detected. So PC acting as a semi-conductor could emit energy in those two areas (EMF and IR) specifically, but it could also be emitting Bio-Energy at the same time.

That's not supported by the text of the RPG, which not only restricts the Invid sensors to only detecting the technology that is protoculture-powered, but completely fails to mention the existence of any protoculture application other than "power source" or "Invid food".

[Jefffar]

For me the issue isn't should or shouldn't UEDF and ASC mecha be on the list. The issue is the fact that they are on the list. Until there is an explicit confirmation that it is not detectable to the sensor (ie a statement that says 'These mecha are not detectable to the Invid Protoculture Targeting System') or an official revision to the list (ie they not being on the list next time the list comes up in a book) they are on the list and officially the Invid get their targeting bonus against them.

Any corrections done with out such an official statement are a house rule.

[jaymz]

Simple enough. Who wants to contact Wayne, Marker or Kevin about it?

[Seto Kaiba]

For me the issue isn't should or shouldn't UEDF and ASC mecha be on the list. The issue is the fact that they are on the list. Until there is an explicit confirmation that it is not detectable to the sensor (ie a statement that says 'These mecha are not detectable to the Invid Protoculture Targeting System') or an official revision to the list (ie they not being on the list next time the list comes up in a book) they are on the list and officially the Invid get their targeting bonus against them.

Again, the official correction has already been made. If anyone were to... y'know... actually bother with reading the text of the rule, which indicates that those mecha are on the list because, at time of writing, they were assumed to run on protoculture. Later books establish those mecha do not run on protoculture, and also that vehicles that do not use protoculture power sources are invisible to Invid sensors.

This is a slam dunk, and doesn't really require much thought...

[Jefffar]

But they are on the list, until they are removed, they are detectable by the Invid's Protocultre Targeting System.

[Seto Kaiba]

But they are on the list, until they are removed, they are detectable by the Invid's Protocultre Targeting System.

I'll say it again... according to the text, they're on the list because the text indicates that they're protoculture powered... the rules in later books indicate that is not the case. Your correction has already been issued. It's not something that requires heavy analysis. The error is exposed by the simple text of the subsequent books, which indicate that those vehicles were placed on the list wrongly because they do not run on protoculture.

[Jefffar]

That indicates they shouldn't be on the list. It doesn't remove them from the list.

Pulling them off the list ourselves is akin to all the 'corrected' stats out there back in the first edition of the RPG. Yes they may be right and lots of people will play using them, but they are house rules rather than the official rules.

[Seto Kaiba]

That indicates they shouldn't be on the list. It doesn't remove them from the list.

Yes, but clear and irrefutable proof - purely within the context of the game's text, and without any kind of recourse to outside sources - that those mecha shouldn't be on the list IS the same as removing them all from the list. If the game itself indicates they don't belong there, then they don't belong there. This shouldn't be a matter that bears debate.

Pulling them off the list ourselves is akin to all the 'corrected' stats out there back in the first edition of the RPG. Yes they may be right and lots of people will play using them, but they are house rules rather than the official rules.

No, it really isn't. The game says, in the core book, that those mecha are detectable because they rely upon protoculture as their power source. Later books in the same series clearly and emphatically say that they DO NOT use protoculture as their power source. Established precedent is to go with the later publication in that series... which invalidates the basic precondition of their presence on that list.

The rule says the sensor detects protoculture-powered mecha. The rules also say those mecha are not powered by protoculture. That they don't belong on the list and have retroactively been exempted from it should be (and is) obvious. The New Generation book went so far as to directly comment that not being protoculture-powered rendered a vehicle invisible to those sensors.

[Jefffar]

Again, please show me where it says the UEDF and ASC Mecha are untrackable by the Protoculture Targeting System or the revised rules for the Protoculture Targeting System that no longer include them in the list of trackable items.

Until that comes up, removing them from the list is a house rule.

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, please show me where it says the UEDF and ASC Mecha are untrackable by the Protoculture Targeting System [...]

It says right there in the rules for it that it tracks mecha, vehicles, etc. that are protoculture-powered... the same is repeated in pretty much every similar rule for protoculture sensing WRT the Invid. Those mecha don't use protoculture, per their stats in their respective books. The New Generation book, as previously quoted, is clear in its indication that vehicles not powered by protoculture are not visible to Invid sensors.

[Jefffar]

5. Protoculture Targeting System: The protoculture targeting system locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting Protoculture energy. This would apply to the Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, Veritech Fighters, old Destroids, mecha of the Southern Cross and any Protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device.

First point, the targeting system doesn't track based on being protculture powered or not. It tracks based on the use and emissions of protocultue energy. While I agree that not being protoculture powered reduces the likelihood of using and emitting protculture energy, it doesn't specifically eliminate it. This provides an in game universe reason for it to still work.

Second point, it includes the mecha in question in the specific list of things that are tracked by the targeting system. Until officially removed from the list, it's still on the list, regardless of if it should be there or not. Fan made corrections like that are house rules until an official confirmation comes about.

[Seto Kaiba]

First point, the targeting system doesn't track based on being protculture powered or not.

Go back and read the rest of it... the ONLY source of protoculture energy emissions ever identified by any of the RPG's books is being protoculture-powered.

Unless these books were written in some heretofore unknown version of English grammar, it clearly lumps 'em with protoculture-powered mecha... a class to which they DO NOT BELONG.

It tracks based on the use and emissions of protocultue energy. While I agree that not being protoculture powered reduces the likelihood of using and emitting protculture energy, it doesn't specifically eliminate it. This provides an in game universe reason for it to still work.

Again, the game states that protoculture energy is the result of protoculture being consumed as fuel in some form or protoculture power source (engine, reactor, furnace, cell). That isn't present on those mecha, so no protoculture energy emissions are produced.

Second point, it includes the mecha in question in the specific list of things that are tracked by the targeting system. Until officially removed from the list, it's still on the list, regardless of if it should be there or not. Fan made corrections like that are house rules until an official confirmation comes about.

But the text of the books is enough to explicitly invalidate its presence on the list because those mecha don't use any protoculture systems. The correction has ALREADY been issued.

Honestly... we'd have less problems like this if people actually read the WHOLE thing instead of skimming or ignoring parts.

[Jefffar]

If it belongs in the class or not, it's still in the list and still trackable though. Correcting the list to remove it is a house rule until it's done officially.

[jaymz]

So shall I try to contact Jason Marker who wrote the books that actually have these mecha and ask him what is intention was behind not listing any protoculture? Wold that satisfy the argument in the yay or nay?

[jaymz]

Message sent to Marker via Facebook. If anyone could give what should be a definitive answer it would be the guy who wrote the two later books that makes this an issue. Dammit I should have thought of this sooner oye

[Jefffar]

It wouldn't be an official correction to the rules (those would appear in a future publication and/or on Palladium's errata page) but it would be a more authoritative source on what the house rule correction probably should be.

[jaymz]

And since we wouldn't see any official correction until another reprint, it would be the closest to official we'll ever get I'd think....

[Nightmask]

Afraid I'm just not going to go along with a big, unsupported house rule that somehow those mecha still are trackable anyway and must have secret protoculture engines built into them so that they remain on a list they don't belong on over a non-house rule that anything wrongly on the list be removed. Because it requires a house rule to insist that mecha explicitly noted not to have any protoculture involved in powering them still give off a protoculture signature so that a list that clearly violates the rule it's derived from (which it's obvious from the context of the paragraph it's derived from the rule regarding the protoculture sensor) retains things on it that don't belong on it. It is most certainly not a house rule when you remove things from a list that they don't belong on in the first place it's following the canon rule so that the list conforms to the rule it derives from.

[eliakon]

Afraid I'm just not going to go along with a big, unsupported house rule that somehow those mecha still are trackable anyway and must have secret protoculture engines built into them so that they remain on a list they don't belong on over a non-house rule that anything wrongly on the list be removed. Because it requires a house rule to insist that mecha explicitly noted not to have any protoculture involved in powering them still give off a protoculture signature so that a list that clearly violates the rule it's derived from (which it's obvious from the context of the paragraph it's derived from the rule regarding the protoculture sensor) retains things on it that don't belong on it. It is most certainly not a house rule when you remove things from a list that they don't belong on in the first place it's following the canon rule so that the list conforms to the rule it derives from.

This word, House-Rule? I do not think it means what you think it means.
Seriously, changing what is in black and white printed in the rule book is the definition of house rule. Now you may not agree that it SHOULD be there. But the fact of the matter is that it is there. There are two different, possibly contradictory, statements. But they are both canon. That means that removing one, or the other, is, by definition, non-canonical, ergo, a house rule.

[jaymz]

Yeah the argument seems to be, which one is the actual correct way to do it since we won't get a proper correction until another reprint IF Palladium decides to bother with any correction at all (I cite the the repeated, and likely intentional inside joke of the multi 100 km range on a plasma rifle that was perpetuated through a few different rifts books for the same weapon)

One "interpretation" is to assume a single line of text is in error and deal with it accordingly.

The other "interpretation" is to assume all mecha in two subsequent books, have some secret unknown power source/emission that was apparently to insignificant to list even though any and every other mecha or vehicle that actually uses the heretofore power source thus has said emission DOES list it.

[ShadowLogan]

Which, per the text of the RPG, indicates they're protoculture-powered... but their specific stats clearly show us that's not the case. There is no defending that obvious an error.

No the text in the RPG establishes that they actively use protoculture energy, not that they are powered by PC.

The only source of protoculture energy specified by the text of the RPG is protoculture power sources... so your objection is still incorrect.

That may be the more common form of PC energy use during the NG time period. And as mentioned previously, it IS possible that the earlier mecha have to switch to PC to be useful at all during this period, what we know is that by the time of TSC those mecha apparently ARE vulnerable to detection which can realistically be different than when they rolled off the production line.

f it's not in the RPG, it doesn't matter... unless you want to houserule it in, but that's not what we're talking about, so you can drop the chip nonsense.

True the chips aren't in the RPG, but they are part of canon, and it is at a level the RPG may not see a point in dealing with.

Again, we're talking about the RPG... if you want to houserule in other stuff from the show, that's your own business.

That is not a house rule, it is actually in the 2E RPG and can be supported in existence by the episode "Metamorphosis" (IIRC). You can look it up if you like.

6. Electro-Magnetic Sensors:These sensors pick up magnetic energy waves and fields. This enables the Invid to sense and see natural lines of magnetic energy and use them like highways to navigate and travel, as well as sense and see weapons, spacecraft and other devices that might generate or affect magnetic fields."

That's not supported by the text of the RPG, which not only restricts the Invid sensors to only detecting the technology that is protoculture-powered, but completely fails to mention the existence of any protoculture application other than "power source" or "Invid food".

In a way it is though given the line in the Main RPG's IPTS. They place emphasis on the actively using PC energy, which applies to a list of mecha (all 3 eras), and PC powered generic list that omits reference to mecha. Given that semiconductors (and even regular conductors) components can emit energy (EMF and heat), a PC semiconductor (or conductor) component can do those to, along with emit Bio-Energy as PC is actively emitting energy now.

[Seto Kaiba]

If it belongs in the class or not, it's still in the list and still trackable though. Correcting the list to remove it is a house rule until it's done officially.

It's not a house rule if the list is obviously in contradiction with later publications in the line... and we both know it is.

No the text in the RPG establishes that they actively use protoculture energy, not that they are powered by PC.

The two are one and the same... the ONLY source of protoculture energy emissions ever mentioned in any of the books is protoculture power generation. Using protoculture energy means you have a protoculture power plant somewhere in the device. This is a consistently-presented fact throughout the RPG, and the source of that power is ALWAYS listed when it appears... except in the case of the VF-1, old Destroids, and the ASC's mecha, because they were later established to not use protoculture.

Until you establish, from the text of the books and in explicit terms, that those mecha contain some form of protoculture power system, you're wrong.

That may be the more common form of PC energy use during the NG time period. And as mentioned previously, it IS possible that the earlier mecha have to switch to PC to be useful at all during this period, what we know is that by the time of TSC those mecha apparently ARE vulnerable to detection which can realistically be different than when they rolled off the production line.

That basically leads to an admission that the VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha in factory condition aren't visible to Invid protoculture sensors. I agree wholeheartedly that IF they were converted to protoculture in later days, then they would be detectable under the rules as written. That's a big IF though, and the text from the New Gen sourcebook doesn't support the idea that they'd all be... (it's not even universal for IMUs built on occupied Earth).

True the chips aren't in the RPG, but they are part of canon, and it is at a level the RPG may not see a point in dealing with.

That's not how the rules for the RPG work and you know it.

In a way it is though given the line in the Main RPG's IPTS. They place emphasis on the actively using PC energy, which applies to a list of mecha (all 3 eras),

"Erroneously" is the word you're missing there... the mecha of the first two eras can't emit energy from the protoculture they don't have.

[Jefffar]

If you are changing a written rule, you are making a house rule. The rule for the Protoculture Targeting System includes specific targets it works on. Removing them from the list, even if justified, is a house rule.

By the way, the M-32 is invisible to Protoculture Sensors for not being Protoculture Powered according to the description. It says nothing regarding the Protoculture Targeting System, so we have no direct contradiction there.

[ShadowLogan]

The two are one and the same...

Actually they are not always the same thing.

That basically leads to an admission that the VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC mecha in factory condition aren't visible to Invid protoculture sensors

Not quite. There are only a few ways to make all statements true in the RPG either:
-they are converted for the era in question
-OR PC is in use and it isn't mentioned beyond the sensor entry (based on the show it is, and the RPG is supposed to be based on the show)
-OR they emit a coincidental synthetic signature (show dialogue establishes that it is possible)

That's not how the rules for the RPG work and you know it.

Actually that is quite how the rules work only going so far with the level of detail. None of the computers mentioned (in the mecha) have RAM/CPU-speed/HD stats, or even the OS/software they use. While the SLMH mecha list endurance in hrs/days, they do not allow for easy transfer between different SLMH users (RAW) unlike PC canisters. Communication systems aren't listed w/specific frequency ranges they can be used to transmit/receive. Etc.

the mecha of the first two eras can't emit energy from the protoculture they don't have.

Incorrect. The IPTS states they do emit protoculture energy.

[jaymz]

-OR they emit a coincidental synthetic signature (show dialogue establishes that it is possible)

Except the item in question that produces said signature still uses protoculture and the reference to it being artificial is not established as being an artificial reading altogether but an artificially modulated reading as opposed to actual mecha usage.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not quite. There are only a few ways to make all statements true in the RPG either:
-they are converted for the era in question

Which means they're protoculture-powered in the New Generation, and therefore both IMUs and not really in line with what we're talking about here... it seems unlikely as well, in the context of the RPG's text, since the RPG asserts that the Macross Saga mecha circa the New Generation were museum pieces.

-OR PC is in use and it isn't mentioned beyond the sensor entry (based on the show it is, and the RPG is supposed to be based on the show)

This is hilariously unfounded considering the way Palladium's system actually works. If those vehicles had any protoculture power system (the only thing that, per the RPG, emits protoculture energy) it would be listed on their stats.

-OR they emit a coincidental synthetic signature (show dialogue establishes that it is possible)

This is also entirely unfounded WRT the RPG... there is no known source of a synthetic protoculture energy signal there.

Actually that is quite how the rules work only going so far with the level of detail. None of the computers mentioned (in the mecha) have RAM/CPU-speed/HD stats, or even the OS/software they use.

Because those things are not in any way relevant to gameplay... having a protoculture power system WOULD BE RELEVANT TO GAMEPLAY. Power systems, primary or secondary, are LISTED. So too are individual gun power systems if they exist.

Incorrect. The IPTS states they do emit protoculture energy.

Erroneously, because it asserts they're protoculture-powered... which isn't true per their stats.

[ShadowLogan]

Which means they're protoculture-powered in the New Generation, and therefore both IMUs and not really in line with what we're talking about here... it seems unlikely as well, in the context of the RPG's text, since the RPG asserts that the Macross Saga mecha circa the New Generation were museum pieces.

And per NG SB SLMH fuel is harder to get than PC fuel. So it isn't just IMUs getting converted. And as museum pieces there is a possibility that they not in working order and are nothing more than parts/shells.

This is hilariously unfounded considering the way Palladium's system actually works. If those vehicles had any protoculture power system (the only thing that, per the RPG, emits protoculture energy) it would be listed on their stats.

No it wouldn't. It would be mentioned if it is fueled by PC, but not if PC was materially used in construction of electronic components as that is a level of detail the RPG routinely skips over. The SLMH mecha that appear on the IPTS list explicitly lack any explicit indication that they are now in fact stealthy.

Erroneously, because it asserts they're protoculture-powered... which isn't true per their stats.

No it asserts they actively use PC energy, not that they are protoculture powered.

"...any target that is actively using and emitting Protoculture energy. This would apply to the Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, Veritech Fighters, old Destroids, mecha of the Southern Cross..." There is no qualification that the item must be powered by PC at this point, only that it use/emit PC energy. It does continue with "...and any Protoculture powered" and does a generic list of items that they could also be PC powered but curiously omits mecha.

This points to the first list being independent of the second list based on the way it is phrased. IT would have been much CLEARER for your POV if they had said: "This would apply to any Protoculture powered, mecha, spacecraft, vehicle, generator weapon or device". Separating mecha from the list of "any PC powered" (which was done) indicates mecha are a special case and do use/emit PC energy, but are not necessarily fueled by PC as later books show.

Except the item in question that produces said signature still uses protoculture and the reference to it being artificial is not established as being an artificial reading altogether but an artificially modulated reading as opposed to actual mecha usage.

Though dialogue indicates the HDBE is not such an example, it still establishes that it is possible in a general sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

And per NG SB SLMH fuel is harder to get than PC fuel. So it isn't just IMUs getting converted. And as museum pieces there is a possibility that they not in working order and are nothing more than parts/shells.

That's your assumption, an unfounded one at that... please don't go confusing your personal assumptions and house rules for facts. Nothing says that those mecha were converted to use protoculture later in whole or in part.

No it wouldn't. It would be mentioned if it is fueled by PC, but not if PC was materially used in construction of electronic components as that is a level of detail the RPG routinely skips over.

Again, a breathtaking failure to acknowledge how the Palladium system even works... to say nothing of how your assertion here clearly does not line up with the text of the books that ONLY cites protoculture usage in power generation applications. NO OTHER APPLICATION OF PROTOCULTURE IS EVER CONNECTED WITH ANY HUMAN MECHA OR EQUIPMENT IN THE BOOKS. Likewise, the ONLY thing Invid sensors detect, per the core book and others, is protoculture energy production. Devices that USE protoculture energy (meaning there's some form of protoculture power system aboard supplying them) or devices that generate that energy (the onboard power systems themselves, or stationary generator systems). No other application of protoculture was ever described, and no other application of protoculture exists in the RPG for human technology.

There is no mysterious, unmentioned protoculture system in any of those mecha because that's not how the bloody game system works. If it's not listed, it doesn't exist. There are no "protoculture chips" or any other passive applications of the stuff anywhere in the RPG.

The SLMH mecha that appear on the IPTS list explicitly lack any explicit indication that they are now in fact stealthy.

Because it doesn't need to be said... the protoculture sensor only detects protoculture-powered technology, and those mecha are not protoculture-powered, so therefore they are not using or producing any protoculture energy. That's a black and white FACT from the books.

"...any target that is actively using and emitting Protoculture energy. This would apply to [...]

Under the descriptions from the previous page, any vehicle or device that contains a protoculture power source (be it an engine, generator, furnace, cell, etc.) or any protoculture power generation system. Those vehicles do not use either of those. If you bothered to read beyond that one tiny section, you would realize how very baseless your entire argument is.

Though dialogue indicates the HDBE is not such an example, it still establishes that it is possible in a general sense.

The dialogue is not relevant to the RPG's contents.

[jaymz]

Except the item in question that produces said signature still uses protoculture and the reference to it being artificial is not established as being an artificial reading altogether but an artificially modulated reading as opposed to actual mecha usage.

Though dialogue indicates the HDBE is not such an example, it still establishes that it is possible in a general sense.

Except that the dialogue is in assertion to the modulation not a false protoculture signal in general, especially since the bio-emulator itself, as per the RPG is protoculture powered to begin with.

[ShadowLogan]

Because it doesn't need to be said... the protoculture sensor only detects protoculture-powered technology, and those mecha are not protoculture-powered, so therefore they are not using or producing any protoculture energy. That's a black and white FACT from the books.

Yes in fact it DOES need to be said as those units are specifically identified as being on a list that use PC energy from the MAIN BOOK. And the RPG does not cover every aspect that can possibly come up in a game and it never has. Dialogue from the show can be used to explain why the RPG classified them as appearing on the list, and the RPG is supposed to be based on the show, which would include the dialogue. The RPG does allow for the existence of "Protoculture based bio-mechanical circuitry" (NG SB pg33). and from the show we know humans used PC in circuitry.

I'm done with this conversation. We are just going around in circles.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes in fact it DOES need to be said as those units are specifically identified as being on a list that use PC energy from the MAIN BOOK.

Yes, it does... I know you're a clever guy, so I know you've noticed that's why so many of us are saying that it's an ERROR. The core book does claim that the vehicles mentioned are using or emitting protoculture energy... but the problem with that is that there has been clear, repeated, and emphatic statement that using/emitting protoculture energy is a statement that the device is either a protoculture power source or drawing its energy from same. Those mecha do not, per their official RPG stats in subsequent books, use any form of protoculture power system... which, under the rules as written, makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the vehicles listed to be giving off protoculture emissions.

The ONLY source of protoculture emissions is, directly or indirectly, a protoculture power source... and that's something those vehicles DO NOT HAVE.

And the RPG does not cover every aspect that can possibly come up in a game and it never has.

Yes, but it DOES cover the essentials... and if a system is not mentioned, then it is assumed that it is not going to have any noticeable effect on gameplay. There are no "protoculture chips" in the game.

Dialogue from the show can be used to explain why the RPG classified them as appearing on the list, [...]

Only when coupled with a ridiculous, circular argument that is built entirely on assumptions about a piece of technology that is mentioned ONCE, only in passing, and never connected with ANYTHING... a piece of technology whose operation would not fall under the rules that dictate what emits protoculture emissions. Only protoculture power sources are, under the rules, capable of emitting protoculture energy emissions.

and the RPG is supposed to be based on the show, which would include the dialogue.

But, ha-ha, it's not actually bound to follow what's in the show... if you want to make it thus you have to houserule a lot of stuff in. That's why it's not canon.

[eliakon]

[/satire] A reading from the Book of Protoculture. Canister 4, Chips 7 through 28

In the beginning there was only the revealed word of the Shadow Chronicle. And that word was held by all as True, for it was the only word. And the people did tremble in just fear of the Invid and their PTS. Then there arose a new prophet, and his name was Yune and he did reveal new truths. And amongst these truths he did bring forth the sacrament of fusion. And the people did cry out “Oh great fusion, dost thou savest us from the unholy wrath of the PTS. But unto the people there was silence. And so the Orthodoxy of the Shadow was sundered. And where there had once been one canon, whole and undoubted, there were two. The Canon of the Shadow of Triol, and the Canon of the Reformed Macross of the South. And the disciples of these faiths do go forth unto holy war. And lo, they did quote at each other, and they were heard not. And in anger they did ananthamize the other, and did declare that they had erred. And unto the others faith did excommunicate their canon unto house rule. And in their wrath each did declare that this was a punishment most dire, and fitting for only their foe. And thus was unleashed the flame, and their flame was a terrible thing that scorched all whom it fell upon. And this flame did consume all it touched, friend and foe, innocent and guilty. And the bridges of the middle ground did burn. Thus did the Mods come and say ‘Nay this shall not be’ and with the Banhammer and the Edit the mods did reign back in the flame from open war. But even now they simmer like malevolent coals, threating to again consume all reason. [/satire]

[Lt Gargoyle]

[/satire] A reading from the Book of Protoculture. Canister 4, Chips 7 through 28

In the beginning there was only the revealed word of the Shadow Chronicle. And that word was held by all as True, for it was the only word. And the people did tremble in just fear of the Invid and their PTS. Then there arose a new prophet, and his name was Yune and he did reveal new truths. And amongst these truths he did bring forth the sacrament of fusion. And the people did cry out “Oh great fusion, dost thou savest us from the unholy wrath of the PTS. But unto the people there was silence. And so the Orthodoxy of the Shadow was sundered. And where there had once been one canon, whole and undoubted, there were two. The Canon of the Shadow of Triol, and the Canon of the Reformed Macross of the South. And the disciples of these faiths do go forth unto holy war. And lo, they did quote at each other, and they were heard not. And in anger they did ananthamize the other, and did declare that they had erred. And unto the others faith did excommunicate their canon unto house rule. And in their wrath each did declare that this was a punishment most dire, and fitting for only their foe. And thus was unleashed the flame, and their flame was a terrible thing that scorched all whom it fell upon. And this flame did consume all it touched, friend and foe, innocent and guilty. And the bridges of the middle ground did burn. Thus did the Mods come and say ‘Nay this shall not be’ and with the Banhammer and the Edit the mods did reign back in the flame from open war. But even now they simmer like malevolent coals, threating to again consume all reason. [/satire]

Rises up from seat and claps in much deserved praise.

[Seto Kaiba]

And so the Orthodoxy of the Shadow was sundered. And where there had once been one canon, whole and undoubted, there were two.

Let's not kid ourselves here... there was NEVER one undisputed canon. There wasn't a canon at all when Carl Macek was cheerfully running the franchise into the ground with ever more severe failures to grasp what had made Robotech barely viable to begin with. He never really bothered to work out how things fit together, and according the the remarks on the subject by Harmony Gold itself, there was no real orchestrating intent or oversight after they resorted to flogging the Robotech name to various licensees for a quick buck.

So... once Harmony Gold finally decided they wanted Robotech to be regarded as more of a credible anime franchise than the joke it'd been previously, and decided to bring in Yune to unmake Macek's mess and start fresh with an official canon and continuity, the long-time fans grumbled incessantly about it. Suddenly, questions had answers... and they all too often didn't like that those answers didn't fit with their various personal views. Some are STILL grumbling about their decision to base Robotech's official stats on the OSM's stats.

With Tommy still trying to wrangle some semblance of sense from the twisted results of the painfully rushed Robotech production process and simultaneously trying to develop the continuation of the story into something someone who isn't a thirty-year fan would want to watch (with a conspicuous lack of success), licensees like Palladium are left shooting at the moving target that is Robotech's official canon. Sometimes, they miss.

This nonsense is just some folks failing to notice that they did, in fact, miss that particular moving target.

When Palladium was putting together the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles RPG, they were laboring under the long-held assumption that all the mecha of the Robotech series were powered by protoculture. At the time, that was actually a correct assumption. But as Tommy Yune tried to find a way to justify the existence of the New Generation mecha when their official stats basically made them inferior in almost every way to the original generation of mecha, he settled on the one thing that could be justified with dialogue from the series... that the New Generation's mecha were the only ones shown using protoculture fuel because they were the only ones that actually did. Tommy took Roy's line about how the engines of the VF-1 were "based on a reactor design" and concluded they were using a thermonuclear reactor system the way they (sort of*) did in the original source material.

So, when Palladium wrote the core book for the "2nd Edition" RPG, they assumed that those mecha all used protoculture fuel. They wrote the rules describing that the Invid detect any technology which generates ("emits") protoculture energy or is powered by ("using") energy from a protoculture power system. Once it was no longer true that some of the mecha the core book had listed were using protoculture power systems, they had no choice but to set the stats the way Harmony Gold wanted them... protoculture-free.

When the Macross and Masters Saga books went to print, their mecha used nuclear fusion or hydrogen fuel cells, a change that meant they no longer had engines that generated/emitted protoculture energy and were no longer using protoculture energy to power themselves. The rules, as written, indicate that protoculture energy is only emitted by the protoculture power sources. Thus, the only technology which uses protoculture energy is technology which has some form of attached/internal protoculture power source to generate/emit that energy.

As publications after the core book firmly and indisputably establish that the VF-1, destroids, and Southern Cross Army hardware do not contain any protoculture power sources, there is no way they could be using protoculture energy... because there is no protoculture reactor, engine, furnace, cell, or other protoculture power source to emit that energy. Thus, there's some significant problems with the list in the core book, because mecha which cannot emit or use protoculture energy do not emit or use protoculture energy. Protoculture which doesn't exist cannot emit energy. The sole mention of protoculture-based circuits in the RPG is as an Invid technology, and at no point is it described as using any protoculture energy or being detectable to the Invid... which pretty well torpedoes that theory.

There is, as you say, only one word here... the problem is that it's not the word you'd like it to be.

[Jefffar]

There is no listed potoculture power source in the UEDF and ASC mecha,this is a verifiable fact.

However they are also on a list of items the Protoculture Targeting System works against. This is also a verifiable fact.

Anything contradicting those facts is a house rule.

[jaymz]

There is no listed potoculture power source in the UEDF and ASC mecha,this is a verifiable fact.

However they are also on a list of items the Protoculture Targeting System works against. This is also a verifiable fact.

Anything contradicting those facts is a house rule.

And in and of itself is contradictory

[Jefffar]

There is no listed potoculture power source in the UEDF and ASC mecha,this is a verifiable fact.

However they are also on a list of items the Protoculture Targeting System works against. This is also a verifiable fact.

Anything contradicting those facts is a house rule.

And in and of itself is contradictory

Not necessarily. The PTS only requires the use and emission of protoculture energy. It never states something has to be powered by protoculture for that to occur. It only indicates that all protoculture powered devices are trackable to it, plus a few other specific items.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not necessarily. The PTS only requires the use and emission of protoculture energy. It never states something has to be powered by protoculture for that to occur. [...]

You may want to re-read it... because the rules from the preceding pages clearly indicate on no uncertain terms that it's protoculture power sources (engines, furnaces, generations, and other forms of energy generation using protoculture fuel) that emit protoculture energy, and for a device to use protoculture energy it would have to have a source of the stuff built into it...

Put simply, "use and emission" is just a slightly more colorful way of saying "it's either powered by protoculture or a stand-alone protoculture power source".

The problem with that one sentence, and why jaymz is entirely correct to point out it's contradictory, is that the VF-1, the old Destroids, and the ASC hardware cannot "use or emit" protoculture energy because, by your own admission, they do not have any form of protoculture power system in their stats.

Now, if those mecha don't posses any kind of protoculture power system... then they can't very well be emitting protoculture energy from a fuel they don't have, or use the energy of that entirely-absent fuel. The New Generation book does give us a clear-cut statement of non-protoculture-powered vehicles being invisible to Invid protoculture sensors. The VF-1, old Destroids, and ASC gear are not protoculture-powered, and therefore under the rules... not detectable.