Unrest Over New Update for Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter

[yanko128]

While I do firmly believe they lied about the 98% done and going to production within 45 days proclamations, ... various backsliding delivery dates and promises so YMMV.

While what you say makes sense, and may or may not be true, in the end the fault lies with PB. Being the lead on the project, it is their job to know about the delays and set/adjust the delivery date accordingly, AND inform the backers of those delays, even if not the reasons for the delays. If things happened and ND backed out of the project mid way through, causing delays, we should have been told something. Even "Conditions beyond our control have changed and we are forced to push the release date back to late summer/early fall" would have been better than what we got.

Personally (and I doubt I am the only one), I could care less who is at fault, its the PBs name on the box. No matter where the delays come from, its up to PB to do damage control. If the fail, as they always do, it is their name that get yet another blemish.

[Jorel]

They know how to make quality RPG products...they have been doing it for 30 yrs, but still manage a stinker occasionally. See Heroes of the Megaverse for a recent example. They have zero experience making quality miniatures. The ones from the Rifts and such aren't what I call quality either, though at the time maybe, I doubt it. This is their 1st real endeavor into this and they went with a company that was also new and comprised of a company who recently had a somewhat sketchy KS itself recently. Still hasn't delivered I don't think. So now we have 2 companies who aren't necessarily known for being timely and having much experience between the 2 of them producing Minis. And you thought you'd get GW type stuff?

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, time is not the issue, something I've stated many times in several forums, including these. So, why the try, three times, to make it a time issue in an attempt to rebut my post with claims of a false analogy?

It's inevitably tied to complaints about the Kickstarter... a quick survey of this forum would tell you that.

Especially since buying a meal from a restaurant analogy fits perfectly with investing in a product that doesn't exist yet, but promises a certain level of quality. Perhaps that is the only defence there is, over the time issue?

Actually, it's a perfectly good analogy because when you buy food from a restaurant, you're not actually guaranteed that you're going to receive a sublime dining experience. All you're truly guaranteed, in this case, is that the meal will be suitable for human consumption. That is the situation the backers had agreed to is.

As anyone with an ounce of sense would tell you, if you want a sublime dining experience you should be going to a five star restaurant. The backers are all bent out of shape because they had a hankering for some New York strip steak and went looking for it at a freaking White Castle. What you're getting is still beef (at least in theory, you never can tell), but anyone with their head screwed on straight could have told you your quest was unlikely to end well due to your choice of venue.

[Jorel]

Pretty much. White Castle it is. Not sure if that is better, worse, or the same as McDonalds...

[Raiden]

So apparently it's too much to ask that Palladium should step their game up a bit to deserve being handed all that backer money?

Gotcha

[Seto Kaiba]

So apparently it's too much to ask that Palladium should step their game up a bit to deserve being handed all that backer money?

Gotcha

It's not Palladium designing and building the models, so yeah... it kinda is.

Besides, remember that in exchange for all that money they also had to develop a lot more stuff and give the backers a lot more merch. That money is going to final production costs as much as it is development.

Pretty much. White Castle it is. Not sure if that is better, worse, or the same as McDonalds...

It works better for the analogy if the restaurant is something that initially sounds tempting but you regret later.

[Kryptt]

That could change depending on how things go in Washington with the AG is suing one ks project creator.

[Raiden]

So apparently it's too much to ask that Palladium should step their game up a bit to deserve being handed all that backer money?

Gotcha

It's not Palladium designing and building the models, so yeah... it kinda is.

Ahh yes, the old point fingers somewhere else tactic. You're proving to be just as precious as Nightfactory. I should be used to this when it comes to Palladium and it's valiant defenders/fan boys...

Let me clarify my comment for you.

Apparently it's too much to ask that Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Company in China and Harmony Gold all step up their games to deserve all the money the backers gave them.

Gotcha.

[Kryptt]

So just that I get my facts right. Were in agreement that PB is screwing this up and could have handled it better? I don't know about others but the delays aren't the problem. The lackluster quality is. When I saw the breakdown for the vf and the spartan I wished I could've wrung a certain backers neck for his white knighting all about PB quality. I have some PB RPG books and the quality for me is well... Let's just say that I won't be reading PB books anytime soon or getting rid of my FFG books. In fact I may end up selling them soon.

[Seto Kaiba]

That could change depending on how things go in Washington with the AG is suing one ks project creator.

For failure to deliver ANYTHING... which all indicators are will not be an issue here, and therefore that will likely have zero bearing on this situation unless we see a nigh-impossible 11th hour crash-and-burn which is devastating enough that they can't give the backers the promised quantities of miniatures and various other articles.

Ahh yes, the old point fingers somewhere else tactic. You're proving to be just as precious as Nightfactory. I should be used to this when it comes to Palladium and it's valiant defenders/fan boys...

Considering I just equated Palladium's work to a restaurant notorious for giving people unspeakable levels of intestinal distress, the idea that I'm one of Palladium's "valiant defenders" or "fanboys" falls a bit flat... wouldn't you say?

I'm just saying that if you want someone to blame for the quality of the miniatures not being where you'd like it, blame the people who actually did the miniatures... Ninja Division. If the issue were problems with the game's rulebook, packaging, presentation, promotion, etc., THEN you can crucify Palladium all you like with my blessing. Give blame unto he who hath done the unsatisfactory work, and give it in quantity commensurate to the severity of the lapse.

Apparently it's too much to ask that Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Company in China and Harmony Gold all step up their games to deserve all the money the backers gave them.

Well... "Chinese quality" is usually considered something of an oxymoron, but without stepping across the bounds of the forum rules too grievously, let me say only that none of those companies are what anyone could call quality leaders in their respective industries. One must also as if "stepping [their] game up" is feasible with the available talent pool, the various legal ramifications, and every other obstacle to finally getting the bloody thing kicked out the door. Some would argue, given recent events, that they're just in way over their heads already.

Of course, "stepping their game up" and "what the backers deserve" are subjective assessments of the game's quality... and therefore are not measurable by any stretch of the imagination.

[MurderCityDisciple]

The powers that be at Palladium are pretty much totally oblivious the the conversations, opinions and 'reality' of the people on the internet.
They're doing other things during the day and obviously don't read or monitor their forums, comment pages and gaming and mini related websites.

So, what's a poor beaten down consumer/drone supposed to do?

Crying out to an empty heaven...into the cold, uncaring void do your cries of anguish echo, unheard.

What are your options?

I know what mine was.
I threw in the towel and now laugh at this comedy of arrogance, delusion and incompetence.

I feel sorry for a lot of you people, expending so much energy on someone/something that cares not one damn flip about you, your concerns, your dissatisfaction, your opinions, feelings and so on.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Palladium is like the worst girlfriend you ever had. She treats you like crap, nails all your friends, lies to you constantly, rips off your bank account, badmouths you in public, gets drunk and obnoxious at family gatherings, tells everyone about your small penis, and never says anything remotely nice to you...but still like a moth to the flame, you can't help but be obsessed over her. There's something you can't resist and maybe you kinda like it.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Crying out to an empty heaven...into the cold, uncaring void do your cries of anguish echo, unheard.

Well, it beats watching reruns of The Highwayman.

You got me.

[Jerell]

The powers that be at Palladium are pretty much totally oblivious the the conversations, opinions and 'reality' of the people on the internet.
They're doing other things during the day and obviously don't read or monitor their forums, comment pages and gaming and mini related websites.

While it's true they usually don't spend their day reading their forums as far as I can tell. The other week, when I stopped by their office, I can say they were definitely acutely aware of what was being said here and around the web about RRT. Not only that but Kevin seemed as concerned about the whole thing as anyone I've talked to. After I talked to them in person, I truly believe the PB crew wants to put out the best product they can on their end. Some of them are definitely Robotech fan boys, and they do care what people think. That being said, I do not believe he has the time to read everything here and post responses.

[Seto Kaiba]

Crying out to an empty heaven...into the cold, uncaring void do your cries of anguish echo, unheard.

Man, this sounds like the start of a Warhammer 40,000 novel.

I know what mine was.
I threw in the towel and now laugh at this comedy of arrogance, delusion and incompetence.

You mean you waited this long to start laughing? Slowpoke.

While it's true they usually don't spend their day reading their forums as far as I can tell. The other week, when I stopped by their office, I can say they were definitely acutely aware of what was being said here and around the web about RRT. Not only that but Kevin seemed as concerned about the whole thing as anyone I've talked to.

... and yet, as concerned as they might be, they're not actually taking any remedial action. Getting the negative feedback can be a valuable tool if you use it, but you have to actually use it. They aren't doing that. I don't doubt for a second that they want to put out the best product they can, but they've got to couple those desires with some actual results for it to mean anything.

[Jorel]

Crying out to an empty heaven...into the cold, uncaring void do your cries of anguish echo, unheard.

Man, this sounds like the start of a Warhammer 40,000 novel.

I know what mine was.
I threw in the towel and now laugh at this comedy of arrogance, delusion and incompetence.

You mean you waited this long to start laughing? Slowpoke.

While it's true they usually don't spend their day reading their forums as far as I can tell. The other week, when I stopped by their office, I can say they were definitely acutely aware of what was being said here and around the web about RRT. Not only that but Kevin seemed as concerned about the whole thing as anyone I've talked to.

... and yet, as concerned as they might be, they're not actually taking any remedial action. Getting the negative feedback can be a valuable tool if you use it, but you have to actually use it. They aren't doing that. I don't doubt for a second that they want to put out the best product they can, but they've got to couple those desires with some actual results for it to mean anything.

my thought on the last part as well. it makes it even worse that they know and do nothing to communicate to the backers on the KS page. They need to open a dialog with those people.

[Morgan Vening]

While it's true they usually don't spend their day reading their forums as far as I can tell. The other week, when I stopped by their office, I can say they were definitely acutely aware of what was being said here and around the web about RRT. Not only that but Kevin seemed as concerned about the whole thing as anyone I've talked to.

... and yet, as concerned as they might be, they're not actually taking any remedial action. Getting the negative feedback can be a valuable tool if you use it, but you have to actually use it. They aren't doing that. I don't doubt for a second that they want to put out the best product they can, but they've got to couple those desires with some actual results for it to mean anything.

my thought on the last part as well. it makes it even worse that they know and do nothing to communicate to the backers on the KS page. They need to open a dialog with those people.

Couldn't agree more with this. And you don't have to address every problem. But you need to be shown to be trying. To my knowledge, Larry Algee still hasn't received a response to his Return/Replace policy, six weeks after pointing it out, going through the correct procedure, and having it forwarded to the relevant people by a forum moderator. And even if he were to receive a reply, it's one that should have been made public.

And it all stands in contradiction to the answer to the question regarding feedback.
Is it possible to have a community organizer interact with us on Kickstarter to provide regular feedback, and not just in the form of updates?
I’ll try to do a better job of that. Palladium Books is a small company with only six full-time employees. Manpower is severely limited, and none of us can spend significant amounts of time watching the comments sections of these Updates. Jeff reads all the direct messages that come in and answers those as best he can. The rest, I try to address in these Updates. Like I said, I’ll try to do better.

Yes, we're finally getting more information regarding what's happening, which I do appreciate. But information =/= feedback, and the lack of an answer to the first question posed 6 weeks ago Saturday, is particularly glaring. Especially in light of how close we are to the last officially declared release date.

If they had gotten out in front of things, yeah, there'd still be some people harshing on their vibe. But there'd be a lot of people more willing to give them a chance if they'd felt their concerns were being taken seriously, and not ignored or dismissed out of hand. I don't know if that can be rectified at this stage, or just be seen as more empty platitudes, but it'd need actions, not words. Not saying they're going to do it, but actually doing it.

[bielmic]

Ignoring problems, marginalizing those who disagree, and continuing business as usual despite the preceding is just simply how they do business. It isn't just and issue of them breaking into a new field because the same thing happens over on the RPG side where they cummulatively have more experience than most of the relatively new companies putting out more (objectively) and better (subjectively) products. As long as they have a few hundred fans who are willing to bail them out of trouble, they don't see any need to change.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Crying out to an empty heaven...into the cold, uncaring void do your cries of anguish echo, unheard.

Man, this sounds like the start of a Warhammer 40,000 novel.

I know what mine was.
I threw in the towel and now laugh at this comedy of arrogance, delusion and incompetence.

You mean you waited this long to start laughing? Slowpoke.

While it's true they usually don't spend their day reading their forums as far as I can tell. The other week, when I stopped by their office, I can say they were definitely acutely aware of what was being said here and around the web about RRT. Not only that but Kevin seemed as concerned about the whole thing as anyone I've talked to.

... and yet, as concerned as they might be, they're not actually taking any remedial action. Getting the negative feedback can be a valuable tool if you use it, but you have to actually use it. They aren't doing that. I don't doubt for a second that they want to put out the best product they can, but they've got to couple those desires with some actual results for it to mean anything.

I've seen the light and have been cleansed for some time now. I will still play Palladium, but won't be buying any. I actually sold a bunch recently and it felt good. Odd.


Jerell, it would be wonderful if somehow the 10,000+ complaint on the KS Comment forum had a little bit of impact. Still waiting to see. The dumpster fire still seems to be raging out of control.

To me it's a soap opera of Schadenfreude-ish delight. How will Palladium **** the supporters off next! Ewww can't wait.
It takes a real pro to **** folks off this much. Kudos Palladium.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ignoring problems, marginalizing those who disagree, and continuing business as usual despite the preceding is just simply how they do business.

Well, to be entirely fair, some of the backers aren't making it easy to sort out the legitimate grievances from shrilled threats and conspiracy theories...

I've seen the light and have been cleansed for some time now. I will still play Palladium, but won't be buying any. I actually sold a bunch recently and it felt good. Odd.

The only Palladium line I've ever supported (directly) is Robotech, and that state of affairs will likely continue more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. They've long since run out of Robotech's actual IP to exploit, so it's just an exercise in watching them frantically scraping the bottom of the barrel for something "new" to show us. They do occasionally dredge up something halfway interesting.

RRT is something I won't be able to justify to myself, it's too big an investment for the morbid amusement value of watching the slow-motion crash and burn. Especially since I can get higher-quality Macross minis from Japan for less money right now and have 'em in my hand within a week.

Jerell, it would be wonderful if somehow the 10,000+ complaint on the KS Comment forum had a little bit of impact. Still waiting to see. The dumpster fire still seems to be raging out of control.

I will not make an "Over 9,000" joke... I will not make an "Over 9,000" joke... I will not make an "Over 9,000" joke...

To me it's a soap opera of Schadenfreude-ish delight. How will Palladium **** the supporters off next! Ewww can't wait.
It takes a real pro to **** folks off this much. Kudos Palladium.

Yeah, you don't normally get to be a spectator to this much seething, unfocused outrage without running for elected office first.

[yanko128]

At this point, as long as the game actually comes out, PB cannot cause more damage to the KS. But they can, and are, killing the future of the game. Any future expansions will have to rely on retail sales, as another KS is not likely to succeed (or if it will succeed, it will do so just barley). And since through this KS PB has shown that their business practices are as normal, a lot of stores will not carry the RRT. And for a miniature wargame, store presence is very important, as its the stores that provide majority of game space.

On an anecdotal note, I asked my local FLGS owner if he plans on stocking RRT. He just laughed, and said he will treat it as any other PB product: special order only. None of the regulars at the store care about Robotech, and nobody buys PB products except one person, and even that is limited by PBs release schedule.

In the end all this KS is is a squandered second chance for PB. What could have been a fresh start became business as usual, but now shown to even a wider audience.

[Jorel]

I don't know. If they set the bar low or lower, say $50,000 this time. They will easily meet their goal on the next KS even with this many screw ups. They made 20x their initial goal in this one. To suggest they couldn't get 1x their goal seams a bit far of a stretch to me.

[Seto Kaiba]

At this point, as long as the game actually comes out, PB cannot cause more damage to the KS. But they can, and are, killing the future of the game. Any future expansions will have to rely on retail sales, as another KS is not likely to succeed (or if it will succeed, it will do so just barley).

Eh... in all honestly, my read of the situation is that this may actually be something the game could limp away from. The fact that most of the world doesn't even know Robotech exists, and that most of the people who are aware of it consider it garbage beneath their notice might actually insulate the final product from a lot of the (largely justified) negativity surrounding the Kickstarter. A lot of those who'd potentially notice and spread negative press just don't care, so someone's only really going to notice all this acrimony if they poke their web browser over here or to the Kickstarter.

And since through this KS PB has shown that their business practices are as normal, a lot of stores will not carry the RRT. And for a miniature wargame, store presence is very important, as its the stores that provide majority of game space.

Really, I don't think this was something that the Kickstarter would've influenced for most stores... esp. in the case of Palladium's Robotech line. It seems like a fair few backers live in areas where the game stores only special order Palladium products on request, and those that I've spoken to who live in regions where the stores DO routinely stock Palladium product have said their situations are similar to mine... the stores stock RIFTS, but Robotech is a special order only item. On that basis, I doubt the issues on Kickstarter will have greatly affected the decision of many stores to stock or not to stock the game.

I do agree, as a long-time miniature war-gamer, that store presence is essential to a game's success... and the absence of it and dependence on the Megaversal Ambassadors to push the game, will likely be more significant (likely negative) factors in the final fate of the game.

[yanko128]

$50k kickstarter is doable, I have no doubt. But selling miniatures to 200-500 people across US does not make for a big gaming scene. Sure, we will see the games going on at Cons, but that will be an extent of it.

Well, you are right, one kickstarter would not change much as far as stores are concerned. But it could have been a new page for PB, and possibly herald PBs new way of doing business. It would take time for people to warm up to it, but it would be a start. I am not even talking about new product/ruleset, though that would interest a lot of "not-fans". I am talking about realistic release goals and release dates. That does not take any investment. The RRT KS showed that PB is not willing/able (doesn't matter which) to change.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have no doubt. But selling miniatures to 200-500 people across US does not make for a big gaming scene. Sure, we will see the games going on at Cons, but that will be an extent of it.

If that... selling miniatures to a few hundred people means there's no gaming scene at all, unless they all happen to live really close together like the few dozen Robotech old-timers in SoCal. I can't picture watching a bunch of grown men muddle through a game they've never played before at a con will inspire many new players... to make a game appealing you have to be familiar with it and visibly be having fun.

Well, you are right, one kickstarter would not change much as far as stores are concerned. But it could have been a new page for PB, and possibly herald PBs new way of doing business. It would take time for people to warm up to it, but it would be a start. [...] I am talking about realistic release goals and release dates. That does not take any investment.

Oh, it takes an investment all right... just not the monetary kind.

What Palladium needs is for its management and staff to pull the company out of the hole they've dug for it is both an awareness of the bad practices and processes that landed them in that hole, and for the PB staff to have a feeling of personal investment in fixing what's wrong. Unless (or until) they are genuinely convinced that they need to change the way they do things, they're not going to make the changes the company needs to survive. My interpretation of Kevin's reply over the Northern Gun 2 book delays has me thinking that Palladium is aware of the problems, but isn't really convinced that they've got bad practices that need to be changed. They're not going to get anywhere until they make that leap to "The problem is in us and it needs to be fixed."

As I have opined elsewhere, they're probably aware of this already on some level... it's just that with the small businesses where the staff is a tight-knit group, people are less willing to say things like this due to fears of hurt feelings. They could turn this around at any time, they just need the awareness and the determination to make the move.

[yanko128]

Out of curiosity, was there ever a talk about some sort of a starter set for RRT? I know GW has Island of Blood, which includes small forces from 2 factions, and few exclusive minis. PP has both Warmachine and Hordes starter boxes, each include starter kits from 2 factions. All of the above sell for $100, and have enough for 2 people to give the game a try. Does RRT have anything of that sort?

[Kendachi]

Out of curiosity, was there ever a talk about some sort of a starter set for RRT? I know GW has Island of Blood, which includes small forces from 2 factions, and few exclusive minis. PP has both Warmachine and Hordes starter boxes, each include starter kits from 2 factions. All of the above sell for $100, and have enough for 2 people to give the game a try. Does RRT have anything of that sort?

The $100 starter set is exactly what you're talking about. Rules, Dice, small forces for both sides, template, etc, etc.

It's in the Palladium store right now for "pre" order.

[Kryptt]

Yes it's called the core box set.

[Kryptt]

Just how much backer money was wasted on FALSE advertising and GC miniatures?

[Jorel]

We can assume they spent some on advertising. The GC minis I'm not so sure about.

[Forar]

Just how much backer money was wasted on FALSE advertising and GC miniatures?

I believe they said it was thousands of dollars wasted on the "winter 2013" advertising. It was ventured as evidence that they themselves believed they could actually make that delivery target, if I'm not mistaken.

I doubt any money was wasted on the GC miniatures, given that they were being sold for $25 apiece for a single figure, sizable as the FPA is. They were resin/pewter, which are vastly less expensive molds to make.

Can't say with certainty that they made massive cash off those, but considering they were selling out at Gencon and then had another run done up for the Detroit Fan Fare, I doubt they were a giant money sink.

Guess we'll know with a bit more certainty in the next few months. If they run Max and Miriya again for Gencon 2014, obviously it was lucrative.

[yanko128]

The $100 starter set is exactly what you're talking about. Rules, Dice, small forces for both sides, template, etc, etc.

It's in the Palladium store right now for "pre" order.

I admit, I didn't look at the store page. And the "pre order" joke is pretty funny.

[Seto Kaiba]

Heh, I don't worry about the strawman comparisons to "discredit" my point by certain posters. They have a common thread, since the disaster is simply to obvious to be ignored, they agree to it all, but then imply that backers should be quiet and pay up without any more struggle to insure that Palladium gets their coin while pointing fingers at everyone else in sight.

There's some painful irony there...

But, in truth, what people are telling you is that you should temper your largely legitimate complaints with something resembling realistic expectations. You were never going to get a first class game, because the companies involved aren't industry leaders. Expecting it to be on time was probably a bridge too far, with the Kickstarter factor and Palladium's own history involved. It's perfectly all right to be PO'd with Ninja Division over clumsy and overcomplicated design, and with Palladium for the usual release date song and dance though.

Just how much backer money was wasted on FALSE advertising and GC miniatures?

That is an EXCELLENT question...

[Forar]

Being late is not uncommon with large projects, no.

Being 1 year or more late on delivery, however, is, and at this rate we're looking at 7-8 months just for the first 2/3, with the remainder being targeted for "the end of the year". Let's be real, it should not shock *anyone* if that dips into 2015.

Also, it's worth noting proportionally. A 1 year project being 2 months late, or 16% off their target, is one thing.

A project was allotted 7 months going up to 19-24+ is something entirely else. That's not a minor "oops". One of the big names in "late Kickstarters", Steve Jackson Games' "Ogre" was only a year late, as I recall. This one had similar backers, took in 50% or so more money, and looks to top that 1 year delay by a significant margin unless Wave Two goes out in miraculously little time.

Needing 20-50% more time is one thing. Needing 200%+ more time, however...

Edit, and yes, as someone will surely point out, they expanded the number of figures in the line considerably, and the amount of figures being delivered significantly.

And then the day after the campaign completed they 'doubled down' and said they might deliver early.

Not that such a thing was remotely realistic, but the backers have, in my experience, simply wanted a realistic time line and to be kept up to speed as to how that is proceeding. It's hard to go from months of "everything is great, everyone loves it, going so well, should hear back from _____ in a couple days" to "whelp, so we need at least 2 more months" every couple months now.

[Morgan Vening]

Actually, if the preproduction work claimed to have been done before the KS (and some of it apparently during the KS for the new models) then they did have an outside chance of making December....but as they failed to close the Backerkit for months and now as we've seen didn't apparently even start until 2014, yeah, it was pretty bad. Like I've said, I know for sure that it was going to be at least Feb 2014 since Sep 2013 from direct information.

Direct information not being through official channels though. September 26, Update 113, they were "still shooting for December", and that was for the project in it's entirety. "What’s more, you’ll receive everything all at once, while the initial retail release will only include the main game and the first six expansion packs, with the rest coming out in waves throughout 2014. But you, wise Kickstarter backer, will already have all the things.". Even though they apparently hadn't seen physical product in the form of pre-production prototypes, and wouldn't until the just before Christmas.

It wasn't until November 2nd, Update 116 that they officially blew off Christmas, but were still saying "If I had to guess, I’d say February, 2014, though we’re working to try to make it sooner.". Again, a full seven weeks before they actually saw physical mockups.

Then they waited until Jan 4 to abandon the Feb timeline. We're well past the traditional "First update of the month before the due date to push the date back". And as the latest poll indicates, it doesn't look like anybody doesn't expect it again. For me, it's not the actual delays, but the apparent lack of understanding that leads to the deadline being held on to well past the point of realistic expectation. If they can't get those estimates right, what else are they 'misunderestimating'?

I'm sure it is to some people, but to the majority of the "vocal minority", being late isn't as important as quality product. Notice that the time issue didn't spark a firestorm from the repeated delays. The firestorm came when a badly cut sculpt was displayed followed by a rather stupid attempt to calm it by simultaneous messages of "it looks bad because we don't know a whole lot <yuk yuk>" and "we are the experts, we know WTH we are doing, so Shut Up Peasants".

Yeah, the delays are an issue, but they're not a big concern for me. When I officially requested a refund, I explicitly stated that the delays weren't an issue, the quality (in this part, the component size/count) was. That the reply was an apparent boilerplate response of five paragraphs, each paragraph waxing poetic about how I shouldn't be upset about the delay, and no mention or addressing of the concerns I did raise, is obvious they didn't take my concerns seriously. Two further messages have gone unanswered, going on near 8 and 9 weeks now.

From my perspective, the delays are just indicative of a larger problem, not so much a problem in and of themselves.

[Kryptt]

I'm just curious. Considering how bad the quality of the models "seams" to be. Are most of you planning on supporting the next ks by PB? I don't think I will.

Most RRT backers are grown folk who don't need gee wiz BS in our updates. I'm more concerned with what they don't know because we were promised quality miniatures. It's obvious ND screwed over PB and all us backers by feeding PB whatever line they want. One minute PB says they know nothing about minis then a week later were told that it's the only way to make the moulds. I have 1/250 bandai macross fighters that come in 12 parts or less. They aren't bisected like any of the rdf mecha we've seen so far. So that stuff about "it's the only way" is BS. I really want to see the vf sprues to see how badly designed it turned out to be. I'm betting that the legs, arms, head are bisected. The way the spartan turned out I'm sure it will have seams in the front too. I hope I'm wrong, but I have no confidence in PB or ND. I don't think this game will be another nail in PB coffin, but the rest of the gaming industry will see them as a joke.

[Seto Kaiba]

LOL, you don't know much about minis do you?

Actually, I know quite a bit... I've been in the tabletop war-gaming hobby for 12 years now.

Requirement to be an industry leader isn't there these days since everything is outsourced. Higher quality and more intelligently designed minis from ND are available for comparison and exceed the quality shown by RTT since Palladium apparently kicked ND to the curb.

The final manufacturing is outsourced, the design process isn't... unless you want to count bringing Ninja Division in to do the design. Bad manufacturing can ruin industry-leading design (like Citadel's first run of Finecast stuff), but good manufacturing will not fix bad design. What you've got here with RRT is a case of bad design. I've had a chance to look over Soda Pop and Cipher's work, and while I couldn't call their work terrible it's fair to middlin' at best.

Since we know that Palladium didn't design the miniatures for Robotech RPG Tactics, that leaves several possible explanations for your discontent:

• Kevin is a mustache-twirling villain who deliberately instructed Ninja Division to do a sub-par job with the miniatures for Robotech RPG Tactics. (not likely!)
• Ninja Division did a mediocre job because they have mediocre designers, and Kevin is either much too inexperienced with tabletop games to notice or he did notice and is desperately trying to put the bow on this metaphorical turd.
• Ninja Division did their homework and noticed that the prospects of a Robotech game were likely worse than a snowball's on the sun and...
  • ... did a poor job with the miniatures because they were unwilling to assign their best people to make the miniatures.
  • ... did a poor job because they wanted to kick it out the door ASAP for the sake of making a quick buck.
  • ... did a poor job because they're simply not good enough to reconcile the anime art style which the job necessitated with the demands for pose-customization in the miniatures.

Your last sentence proves my point, with the attempt at blame sharing with ND.

Considering nobody has yet managed to provide any proof to back up the assertion that this is somehow ALL Palladium's doing and nobody else's, even though Palladium didn't design these miniatures and there's nothing said about who originally set the schedule, it's only fair and prudent to consider that there might be causes beyond "Kevin is a big meanie".

[Mike1975]

I think there are 2 major problems at the moment.

1. Palladium has no clue when it comes to PR and Mini's Games and Gamers, they SHOULD have hired a PR manager or firm to help as well as a Project Manager to take things in hand and hit a home run on this project. Too many mistakes and problems with communication between HG, PB, and ND, and as always with the Backers. Until people started getting real upset and questions were sent directly to them they had not spent sufficient time either answering the concerns of the backers whether small or great. PB is working to improve this process but has a long ways to go yet.

2. Upset backers in an attempt to "save" the company, instead of being productive and constructive and trying to contact the company in constructive and supportive manner have done so with a threatening and fear mongering stance trying to install fear of the company failing and falling on it's face or insulting those who work for the company in their efforts. While not a completely unrealistic position that they company may fall by not handling this KS properly, they have constantly and at times cruelly, insulted any and all who do not hold to the same opinion. Not only that they have done so under the completely false "guise" of doing so in the best interest of PB and wanting to save a company. Truly honest people that care and want a company or person to succeed do their best to cajole and suggest better ways to do things in a quiet, pointed and personal way instead they have directly, publicly and grossly attacked the company and any who opposed them. This stance is foolhardy and is bound to fail as it is because it is based on a false foundation. When suggestions have been made for how to improve and change this foundation those suggestions have also been ignored and scoffed at or even attacked. A person who honestly wants something to work and work right does everything he can within the framework he has available to achieve his goals.

Both of these are the primary problems that exist with the PB and some of backers.

[Mike1975]

I readily admit and understand that PB has had terrible communications. I also see that it is not exclusive to this Kickstarter albeit they are not in the P50 more more like P20 level. They should have had a PM lead this from the start. I also firmly and completely believe that profuse and extreme criticism while many say they are doing it for the companies greater good is pure rationalization.

Now as for the post. Again, knowing NMI, I doubt PB gives him much attention either since his attitudes and activities are likely well known and understood, too bad they are permitted to continue.

I did email something the other day and get a fairly quick response and although I prefer to stay out of things I would be willing to email them with additional questions or more importantly a well written explanation on what of the questions have yet to be answered and maybe even a sample of what the pledgers would like as a response and ALSO I'd ask that you add the question on the parts replacement/services and whatever else can be brought to their attention.

While the last response was less than ideal, we did get one, and things have improved, let's work to keep the forward progress from slowing down.

Also, I understand that PB is an old company, I have some 1st ed Robotech books somewhere in the garage. There is good reason why it is in a bin and not being used. Also keep in mind how effective those 30 years of business have been.... I'm not blind to the realities. I seek to bring us together under a common cause for the the betterment of Tactics and it's future, I have no interest in the rest.

[Morgan Vening]

I readily admit and understand that PB has had terrible communications. I also see that it is not exclusive to this Kickstarter albeit they are not in the P50 more more like P20 level. They should have had a PM lead this from the start. I also firmly and completely believe that profuse and extreme criticism while many say they are doing it for the companies greater good is pure rationalization.

Now as for the post. Again, knowing NMI, I doubt PB gives him much attention either since his attitudes and activities are likely well known and understood, too bad they are permitted to continue.

I did email something the other day and get a fairly quick response and although I prefer to stay out of things I would be willing to email them with additional questions or more importantly a well written explanation on what of the questions have yet to be answered and maybe even a sample of what the pledgers would like as a response and ALSO I'd ask that you add the question on the parts replacement/services and whatever else can be brought to their attention.

While the last response was less than ideal, we did get one, and things have improved, let's work to keep the forward progress from slowing down.

Also, I understand that PB is an old company, I have some 1st ed Robotech books somewhere in the garage. There is good reason why it is in a bin and not being used. Also keep in mind how effective those 30 years of business have been.... I'm not blind to the realities. I seek to bring us together under a common cause for the the betterment of Tactics and it's future, I have no interest in the rest.

Mike, while I honestly appreciate the effort, the fact that at this stage, it's still incumbent on us to go through "favored son" intermediaries for honest answers to important questions, rather than THEM stepping up and doing what is expected of any reasonable company, a stepping up that AGAIN, they claimed they were going to do better at, is IMO a failure at the foundation level of the company. The fact that NMI still has moderating privileges is indicative of a management that simply doesn't give a crap.

Acceptance of the status quo just reinforces that their approach is an acceptable one, and frankly, I'm not OK with that. We got a response because the natives were furious. It placated some, but the lack of an answer to the first question some six weeks in, and a dismissal of others indicates it was a token effort at best. Six weeks to answer the Return Policy, and it gets delivered through an approved intermediary passing on second hand (though not IMO disputed) information, rather than an official source. Because sticking it in an official post, or gods forbid, putting it in an off-calendar Update is obviously too much effort. As is, apparently, assembling the first sprue test, given we're currently seven weeks away from the last announced shipping date. With the apparent (but unconfirmed) problem with the Recovery Pod, that this isn't a priority, is completely laughable.

As for being in this for the betterment of Tactics, and it's future, I think it's PB that are blowing it. While there's no pleasing some people, I think the implied accusation that I may have put over $1500 into this project to watch it fail is disingenuous at best. I had faith. I was pleased with the project. But the continual bungling and blameshifting has put me in a position where the reason I want a refund is because I no longer have faith I'll recover those costs on the secondary market. And again, the implied statement by some that if the project fails, it's solely on the backs of disgruntled backers, is such a complete joke, I honestly don't know how to respond.

[Mike1975]

I readily admit and understand that PB has had terrible communications. I also see that it is not exclusive to this Kickstarter albeit they are not in the P50 more more like P20 level. They should have had a PM lead this from the start. I also firmly and completely believe that profuse and extreme criticism while many say they are doing it for the companies greater good is pure rationalization.

Now as for the post. Again, knowing NMI, I doubt PB gives him much attention either since his attitudes and activities are likely well known and understood, too bad they are permitted to continue.

I did email something the other day and get a fairly quick response and although I prefer to stay out of things I would be willing to email them with additional questions or more importantly a well written explanation on what of the questions have yet to be answered and maybe even a sample of what the pledgers would like as a response and ALSO I'd ask that you add the question on the parts replacement/services and whatever else can be brought to their attention.

While the last response was less than ideal, we did get one, and things have improved, let's work to keep the forward progress from slowing down.

Also, I understand that PB is an old company, I have some 1st ed Robotech books somewhere in the garage. There is good reason why it is in a bin and not being used. Also keep in mind how effective those 30 years of business have been.... I'm not blind to the realities. I seek to bring us together under a common cause for the the betterment of Tactics and it's future, I have no interest in the rest.

Mike, while I honestly appreciate the effort, the fact that at this stage, it's still incumbent on us to go through "favored son" intermediaries for honest answers to important questions, rather than THEM stepping up and doing what is expected of any reasonable company, a stepping up that AGAIN, they claimed they were going to do better at, is IMO a failure at the foundation level of the company. The fact that NMI still has moderating privileges is indicative of a management that simply doesn't give a crap.

Acceptance of the status quo just reinforces that their approach is an acceptable one, and frankly, I'm not OK with that. We got a response because the natives were furious. It placated some, but the lack of an answer to the first question some six weeks in, and a dismissal of others indicates it was a token effort at best. Six weeks to answer the Return Policy, and it gets delivered through an approved intermediary passing on second hand (though not IMO disputed) information, rather than an official source. Because sticking it in an official post, or gods forbid, putting it in an off-calendar Update is obviously too much effort. As is, apparently, assembling the first sprue test, given we're currently seven weeks away from the last announced shipping date. With the apparent (but unconfirmed) problem with the Recovery Pod, that this isn't a priority, is completely laughable.

As for being in this for the betterment of Tactics, and it's future, I think it's PB that are blowing it. While there's no pleasing some people, I think the implied accusation that I may have put over $1500 into this project to watch it fail is disingenuous at best. I had faith. I was pleased with the project. But the continual bungling and blameshifting has put me in a position where the reason I want a refund is because I no longer have faith I'll recover those costs on the secondary market. And again, the implied statement by some that if the project fails, it's solely on the backs of disgruntled backers, is such a complete joke, I honestly don't know how to respond.

They likely receive a large number of emails from a variety of sources. I delete more than half the emails that I get at work without ever reading them. It's not a matter of favored son or other crap. It's a matter of knowing someone personally vs random people. NMI is likely largely ignored since I doubt his antics are anything new. While I do agree they have a massive amount of improvement to work towards I also have heard a lot of complaining and seen little actual action. Has anyone tried to call them? Maybe once or twice at most? You also know as well as I do that when you ask someone a question they personally feel that it was answered or have forgotten about it and we want the answer we need to follow up and ask for a better answer. If you ask someone how their day was and they say fine and then you follow up asking what do they mean by fine it is not the same thing as just walking away and complaining that all they ever say is everything is fine.

Note: I am stepping in here, AGAIN, offering to help facilitate communication. I know that there have been internal communication issues between HG, PB, and ND, where the blame lies, likely on all 3 but more heavily on PB since this is their show. I also agree that the whole you should have done research thing is complete BS. I've have never supported that. When I support something I try to do it with what information that I have and with taking a view of both sides of the issue. I'm not always good at it but I do try. Again, I think you guys need to relist the questions, clarify what has not been answered appropriately and why and what is hoped for/expected with an understanding that some questions from the PB point of view might be better off left unanswered. Some of the questions, while good, if I was part of PB, I would not have answered to the expectations of some backers either. So do it with a eye on what both sides want and what should be answered. Banging heads against the wall only gives us headaches all around.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sudden poof and there is no more ND around, only Palladium. In the meantime, ND has pulled virtually all mention of RTT from its web presence, directs all questions to Palladium and if cornered replies along the lines that they are working as hard as they can with Palladium. Possibly ND did a cut and run that you implied. [...]

Until someone speaks up, there is no way to know for certain... and because these aren't big companies we're talking about, it's not likely someone will break silence to talk about why this has happened unless the game spins in so hard that the government starts looking for the Higgs Boson in the wreckage.

However, YOU are one of the ones pointing out that backers "should have known about Palladium" and given that more and more has been uncovered about Palladium...do YOU really think this is some kind of ND slime, just because it might be possible, or do YOU think it is more likely that we have a patented, witnessed and attested to seizing of the reins away from ND by someone else?

Now there's an interesting question... and there's certainly no shortage of possible explanations for how this has turned out.

What I personally suspect is that Ninja Division had originally only agreed to co-develop Robotech RPG Tactics because their only knowledge of Robotech came from the half-truths and outright lies in Harmony Gold's press packet, and because as a partnership of two small companies they saw the chance that they might have a game with a Hollywood movie tie-in as their ticket to the big leagues. I think the situation we have here is likely Ninja Division trying to distance itself from the game after noticing there's no future in the game. They probably just want to kick it out the door and have done with it, after they noticed Robotech isn't doing all that well and that the market for it is extremely small. It would not surprise me if they weren't too thrilled with how Palladium has handled the game's promotion either. Kind of like how, after handling the Robotech home video license for a few years, each distributor wants nothing more to do with the franchise.

In short, I think Ninja Division did make an effort to do this right with their limited resources... and that Palladium is the only one talking about it because Ninja Division just wants out.

Palladium is being treated like a company with thirty (30!) years of experience in the gaming industry. No more, no less.

30 years of experience in the traditional RPG genre of the gaming industry... 0 years of experience in the tabletop war-game genre, and boy does it show. While there is some overlap between the two, there is not much experience from one that is transferable to the other development-wise.

Nobody (well, not me anyway) is saying you shouldn't be upset with Palladium. I'm just saying you should only chew them out for stuff that's definitively and irrefutably their fault.

[bielmic]

Palladium is being treated like a company with thirty (30!) years of experience in the gaming industry. No more, no less.

30 years of experience in the traditional RPG genre of the gaming industry... 0 years of experience in the tabletop war-game genre, and boy does it show. While there is some overlap between the two, there is not much experience from one that is transferable to the other development-wise.

You would normally have a point but those three decades of experience didn't matter for squat on the other two most recent crowdfunding projects or any of the other 20 or so failed to deliver RPG titles of 2013. Even when working within their chosen niche, they exhibit exactly the same deficiencies. And now we have another potentail failure to refer to because the company that promised 20 books for 2013 and delivered one of those 20.... who have not come out with any RPG books for the past 5 months... will come out with 4-6 in the next 5 months. They'll be lucky if they get out two in that time (including the at the printer NG2) in addition to gencon and whatever shakes loose in Robotech Tactics.

Palladium doesn't need any other companies' help to screw up royally. They've been doing that on their own for the past two decades.

[Kryptt]

Larry I wouldn't worry much about trying to convince people here. If it fails the rest of the gaming community outside of PB already see PB as the ones who bungled this great opportunity along with the morons at ND. So no matter what any fan friends say, is moot because the TT gamers this is aimed at will know were the fault lies. I mean over on dakka, warseer, and other gaming sites we'er discussing the same thing minus the white knighting. That's why I don't care about the excuses/opinions expresed by them. Be like me Larry and just let it go. There not worth the hassle.

[Seto Kaiba]

You would normally have a point but those three decades of experience didn't matter for squat on the other two most recent crowdfunding projects or any of the other 20 or so failed to deliver RPG titles of 2013.

Yep, inexperience with the field of tabletop war-gaming is not something they can use to excuse having missed their release targets with terrifying thoroughness. On the other hand, if Ninja Division is willing to kick inferior-quality product out the door and say "in our opinion as professionals in this field, this is good enough for release", is that really Palladium's fault?

Palladium doesn't need any other companies' help to screw up royally. They've been doing that on their own for the past two decades.

When did I say they did? My whole argument is, I suppose, essentially that Palladium found a partner who has helped them screw up massively in new and outrageous ways.

In other words, if I don't have such iron clad proof that I can either blackmail Kevin for everything he owns and/or send him to prison for life for criminal activities, then nothing detrimental can be said about Palladium Books.

No, and I'd greatly appreciate it if you stopped with the Reductio ad absurdum.

What I said there was that, unless you have actual proof that Palladium is the one making the miniatures instead of Ninja Division, it makes no sense to blame Palladium for the quality of the miniatures they were not the designers of. If Ninja Division, a partnership of two miniatures companies, thought the minis that you find to be of such offensively poor quality were good enough for release, is that Palladium's fault? It seems somehow unfair to say that it is. After all, Kevin and co. are not experts on tabletop gaming, and nothing that crosses Kevin's desk hasn't already been signed off on by Ninja Division.

Guess what boyo! It is 100% Palladium's fault. Definitely and Irrefutably. Unless you have a shred of evidence that replaces Palladium as Project Lead with their name on the front.

This has been billed as a partnership from the word go, not as Ninja Division being in Palladium's employ.

One of the (many) reasons there's almost no sympathy for the upset backers from anyone who isn't also one of the backers is that it seems to be being used as a vehicle for expressing personal grievances with Palladium more than actually expressing discontent with the quality of the work being done. Denying the responsibility of the other parties involved robs your complaints of most of their legitimacy.

If it fails the rest of the gaming community outside of PB already see PB as the ones who bungled this great opportunity along with the morons at ND.

That's kinda my point, Kryptt... Larry is saying Palladium bungled this alone, and that Palladium should bear sole responsibility for it. Pretty much all I'm saying here is that any coherent and rational assessment of the situation by someone who ISN'T a backer or determined to vilify Palladium is going to find Ninja Division to be as much, if not more, responsible for the quality issues because they're professional miniatures studios who really ought to be better than this amateur hour nonsense. Palladium should get some flak for rubber-stamping 'em, but the greater share of the blame should belong to the studio responsible for the concept and production design.

The "if you're not ready to crucify Palladium, you're defending it" attitude is not helping anyone take the backers seriously. (Well, at least among people who normally take the backers seriously... which I can't say has ever applied to me.)

[Kryptt]

If it fails the rest of the gaming community outside of PB already see PB as the ones who bungled this great opportunity along with the morons at ND.

That's kinda my point, Kryptt... Larry is saying Palladium bungled this alone, and that Palladium should bear sole responsibility for it. Pretty much all I'm saying here is that any coherent and rational assessment of the situation by someone who ISN'T a backer or determined to vilify Palladium is going to find Ninja Division to be as much, if not more, responsible for the quality issues because they're professional miniatures studios who really ought to be better than this amateur hour nonsense. Palladium should get some flak for rubber-stamping 'em, but the greater share of the blame should belong to the studio responsible for the concept and production design.

The "if you're not ready to crucify Palladium, you're defending it" attitude is not helping anyone take the backers seriously. (Well, at least among people who normally take the backers seriously... which I can't say has ever applied to me.)

I agree with you. It's moot only because outside of these forums ND will get a pass because of their work outside of RRT. PB on the other hand wil continue to be vilified by the rest of the gaming community because it's their name on the box. But your right about PB being at fault for approving them.

[bielmic]

I agree with you. It's moot only because outside of these forums ND will get a pass because of their work outside of RRT.

Really? Do you know of many satisfied Relic Knights backers then? ND/Soda has a recent history of failure because they were just recently formed. Palladium's history of failure in regards to project management goes back decades. The only thing they have in common is robotech and failure to deliver on a timely basis. If Ninja Division continues to screw up delivery dates over the next 20+ years then they will have a rep like Palladium's within the gaming community. With Robotech now, that officially makes a trend with two data points for Soda/ND. Soda screwed up with Relic Knights and now they screwed up with Robotech. Palladium screwed up both NG projects and Robotech. When it comes to crowdfunding, they both screwed up consistently. Palladium, however, is the name on the box and the kickstarter and the entity that cashed the checks... that makes them ultimately responsible for the whole project... failures and all.

[Kryptt]

I agree with you. It's moot only because outside of these forums ND will get a pass because of their work outside of RRT.

Really? Do you know of many satisfied Relic Knights backers then? ND/Soda has a recent history of failure because they were just recently formed. Palladium's history of failure in regards to project management goes back decades. The only thing they have in common is robotech and failure to deliver on a timely basis. If Ninja Division continues to screw up delivery dates over the next 20+ years then they will have a rep like Palladium's within the gaming community. With Robotech now, that officially makes a trend with two data points for Soda/ND. Soda screwed up with Relic Knights and now they screwed up with Robotech. Palladium screwed up both NG projects and Robotech. When it comes to crowdfunding, they both screwed up consistently. Palladium, however, is the name on the box and the kickstarter and the entity that cashed the checks... that makes them ultimately responsible for the whole project... failures and all.

I agree with you that it's PB's name on the box and that ND is only a subcontractor. I say ND will get a pass because of morons who still back their projects even though RK and RRT are running late. I've decided not to give ND any more of my money. I also don't spend any more $ on PB products because I now see how these two badly run businesses promise the sun and the moon and instead they both produce inferior products.

I mean PB couldn't even put up a FB page for whatever moronic reasons. ND is just as bad. Aside from the RRT models, you won't find any other ND/SP/cipher products in my house.

[Kryptt]

I do get friend. Believe me many of us hold Kevin responsible for this mess. After all he's the one approving faulty looking models. Unfortunately this particular captain is jumping ship before the others can get off.

[Kryptt]

Larry I hope u realize I'm on your side and not some PB sycophant.