Shark_Force wrote:@ killer cyborg:
if you happen to have the xiticix digger write-up at hand, i believe it mentions that the digger is capable of using it's resin to get the weapons started. the final process does require the queen, but the diggers are in fact capable of doing some portion of the labour (precisely how much is unclear, however). by your definition, i believe the xiticix still meet the requirements for "mass production".
Thank you for your thorough reply.
Here's what I can find:
XI 49
Diggers, with the help of Workers operating under their explicit direction, use full strength resin to make MDC melee weapons. Most are hand-held weapons, but fighting class Xiticix, particularly Super-Warriors and the older Warriors, often have the Digger augment their natural MDC exoskeleton with Mega-Damage resin plating as well as have resin cast weapons (blades, spikes, and barbs) applied directly to their bodies.The queen doesn't seem to be involved, which is a shame because that would indicate that the xiticix melee weapons are magical in nature, which would go a long way toward answering the question of how they are able to inflict mega-damage.
With this passage, we see that Diggers can direct workers to help in making the melee weapons, but we can't tell if the process is somewhat assembly-line, or if it's more akin to an overseer helping guide hand-crafters with their individual projects.
P. 47 states that Diggers:
are also responsible for... the manufacturing of the infamous resin-based melee weapons (swords, spears, and so on.) Of course, the Diggers don't do all this work by themselves. They command a legion of Workers to assist them in their tasks.Again, it doesn't describe what kind of direction is being done, nor what kind of production methods are used.
In order for it to be proper mass production, though, there would have to be a standardization of parts. When crafting a Xiticix Long Sword, for example, one bug would have to craft the pommel, another the hilt, another the guard, another the blade, and so forth.
Which I still believe seems pretty unlikely.
Under the Xiticix Young Queen description (XI 62), it states:
Only the Queens, with the help of the Diggers, psionically (and magically?) make the long-range weapons, including the TK rifle, TK pistol, Spike Shooters, and the Resin Spitter rifle. Nobody knows how this process works but assumes it must involve psionics and perhaps the syphoning of magic energy...
...Presumably, only the Queens can (magically or psionically?) create a firing mechanism and PPE power source while the Diggers make the physical weapon.Okay, THIS seems to be the kind of thing that you were referring to.
I don't believe that there are enough steps (or machines, etc) for this to really count as mass production, though. For a true assembly line, you need to have a variety of stations in which interchangeable parts are assembled into the end product, moving down the line from one worker to the next until completion.
In this case, you have one bug making most of the product, and another bug putting the finishing touches on it.
I don't think that's really the same thing, because it's basically what techno-wizards often do in general.
With the original Techno-Wizards, for example, they could take any laser pistol and convert it to work off of magic instead of electricity.
The weapon would have been manufactured by somebody else, but the Techno-Wizard would take that weapon, and create a PPE power source and a magical mechanism for that power source to interface with the rest of the weapon.
But I wouldn't think that the TW Laser Pistol could be claimed to have been "mass produced," simply because one person added some features to a device that another person made.
likewise, for techno-wizards, it is entirely possible for them to hire non-TW assistants to speed up the work. those assistants need to have appropriate skills themsevels (vehicle skills for working on vehicles, etc), and so while it isn't explicitly stated that they're doing work on it then passing it off to someone else (the TW) to do the next step, it is heavily implied.
Agreed.
A Techno-Wizard (like the one above) will likely be able to create weapons (like TW Laser Pistols) a lot faster if he doesn't have to physically build the body of the laser pistol itself. Same with many techno-wizardry devices.
That kind of assistance doesn't necessarily mean that TW items produced by that technique are mass produced, though, which is my primary point in this conversation.
"Mass production" is a specific term with a specific meaning.
As I've already mentioned, I do believe that mass production of Techno-Wizardry IS possible. It simply requires the right set-up.
but, to be fair, i suppose what i mainly meant was that some places seem to produce extremely large quantities of magical goods at a sufficient rate to provide for entire military organizations (or equivalent) just as effectively as technology is capable of doing. whether they do that using mass production as the encyclopedia defines it or some other way is rather beside the point (though for what it's worth, those places do seem to be producing large numbers of identical products).
Hm.
I overall agree, except:
1. We don't know that they can produce magical goods as fast as technology can produce technological goods*.
What we know is that hundreds of millions of xiticix can produce over an unknown period of time, enough weapons to equip 1/3+ of their warriors with magical weapons.
But we also know that the Coalition is able to produce millions of suits of power armor, millions of rifles, millions of suits of armor, millions of sky cycles, millions of grenades, etc. etc. etc. with a much, much lower overall population.
Likewise, the Splugorth might produce a LOT of magical items... but they have entire
planets supporting them.
And we know that the defenders of Tolkeen had enough magical weapons to outfit most of their army... but their army was a LOT smaller than the Coalition's.
Overall, the fact that there are large amounts of magical weapons produced does not mean that the production methods are as fast or as efficient.
2. Most magical weapons are NOT identical products, especially when it comes to Techno-Wizardry.
A Techno-Wizard wanting to add the feature "Impervious to Flame" to a suit of body armor could use any number of different types of body armor, ranging from old-fashioned SDC mail to a suit of Heavy Dead Boy armor. Two suits of TW armor with this same feature aren't going be anything close to identical if they start with different components, as TW devices very often do.
More importantly, even if you start with the exact same chief component, the end results are incredibly unlikely to be identical unless specific effort was put forth to make the product identical.
If you have two Techno-Wizards, and each of them have a suit of Bushman armor, and each of them wants to add the feature of "Impervious to Fire" to the armor, there are countless variations on the theme as to how they would accomplish this goal. One wizard might paint the armor red, and attach a small fire extinguisher to the armor, in addition to the gems and wires and such. The other wizard might paint the armor blue, and attach part of a lawn sprinkler to the armor somehow. Techno-Wizardry is, as a rule, a craft.
Furthermore, there are other factors involved, such as the spellcaster level that the device uses, which make it virtually impossible for two TW devices to be identical unless they were specifically crafted to be that way.
For example, if they were mass produced.
*Leaving out for the moment that magical goods ARE a kind of technological good by strict definition of "technology."
the main point i was trying to address was the claim that magical societies are incapable of producing sufficient quantities of magical goods to equip all of their people (ie not just the ones that have the knowledge and can use magic) like technology can.
I have neither supported nor denied that claim, nor even really noticed it being made.
I have simply pointed out that assembly lines are a kind of technology, and that "mass production" is a specific term that does not typically apply to magical items in the Rifts setting.