The Rifts™ Difiicult/Weird Questions Thread

[Library Ogre]

BUT the follow-up question is my real question; If Naruni manufactures plasma "cartridges", what's stopping me from just buying ammo and producing a knock-off gun for far cheaper than the 30+grand their products are costing me?

Naruni enforces its patents by repeatedly killing and resurrecting you.

Did you ever read Altered Carbon? Where Takeshi Kovacs is put into another, highly sensitive, body for the explicit purpose of torturing him to death? Then once he's dead, they put him in another body, and do it again?

Naruni thinks of that as a fun starter.

Finally, why is there not a communal rules-logic update not on these boards? I know we all have our house-rules and rules fixes (I've posted some of mine in the GM forum), but has no one bothered to create and sticky such an effort?

Because the only thing we can actually be assumed to have in common is the rules as written. If you created such a project (and I have no doubt there are several around), you'd have some folk who are subscribers, some who are not, leading to a bit of an edition war when talking about things.

[LostOne]

What does the damage; the ammo or the gun?

One or both, depending on the gun and ammo.

BUT the follow-up question is my real question; If Naruni manufactures plasma "cartridges", what's stopping me from just buying ammo and producing a knock-off gun for far cheaper than the 30+grand their products are costing me?

Besides the fact that Naruni would send Repo-Bots after you, it may not be cost effective to produce a knockoff. The gun has to be able to repeatedly withstand the heat caused by firing multiple plasma weapons. If it can't, melts in your hands. If it can, maybe it's too heavy to be easily carried by unaugmented infantry. These are military grade weapons and in order to keep the weight down they may need more expensive MDC plastics and ceramics that are expensive and keep the price of manufacturing high. But mostly it's the Repo-Bots coming to molest you in ways too horrible to imagine that keeps most people from making the knockoffs.

Why does a single round of a railgun often do only 1d4MD, but infact loses damage somewhere when it bursts for 20-30 rounds at 1d4x10MD?
Why would this same phenomina happen with bursting energy weapons, specifically laser pulse? I can see a burst of rail-rounds having some rounds miss (offering the lowered range), but against fixed targets that I cannot miss (ie: the broad side of a barn) why is my damage not increased to match single round damage?

You can pseudo-rationalize this in various ways. The way I go with railguns is that not all of the ammo in a burst hits. Some rounds may be flawed and deformed and catch the air in a way that they go wild, or your target is moving and so you can't keep the gun aimed perfectly the entire burst, etc. For energy weapons, it may be the capacitor in the weapon isn't capable of firing a 3-shot burst where the 3 shots have the same energy as a single shot from the weapon. So the 3 shots are slightly weaker, but hit for more damage overall in a short time, so people still use them. In case that isn't explained well: Imagine a single shot is X joules, the capacitor can't hold 3x joules and can't recharge each shot in a burst to X joules, so the weapon may be firing .8X joules for each shot in a burst, or some other fraction of X joules.

Why does a "burst" from a pulsing laser weapon cut my bonus to strike in half (due to bursting), when it states that lasers and certain other energy weapons have no kick what-so ever, and make no sound?
Why is it impossible to make an aimed shot with this type of weaponry?

My group ignores that rule because ti doesn't make any sense to us either. Laser weapons firing pulses = full bonus.

[Dog_O_War]

What does the damage; the ammo or the gun?

One or both, depending on the gun and ammo.

BUT the follow-up question is my real question; If Naruni manufactures plasma "cartridges", what's stopping me from just buying ammo and producing a knock-off gun for far cheaper than the 30+grand their products are costing me?

Besides the fact that Naruni would send Repo-Bots after you, it may not be cost effective to produce a knockoff. The gun has to be able to repeatedly withstand the heat caused by firing multiple plasma weapons. If it can't, melts in your hands. If it can, maybe it's too heavy to be easily carried by unaugmented infantry. These are military grade weapons and in order to keep the weight down they may need more expensive MDC plastics and ceramics that are expensive and keep the price of manufacturing high. But mostly it's the Repo-Bots coming to molest you in ways too horrible to imagine that keeps most people from making the knockoffs.

Maybe. This answer is acceptable, with one but; How are they to send Repo-Bots after me if they can barely maintain a presence in NA?

Why does a single round of a railgun often do only 1d4MD, but infact loses damage somewhere when it bursts for 20-30 rounds at 1d4x10MD?
Why would this same phenomina happen with bursting energy weapons, specifically laser pulse? I can see a burst of rail-rounds having some rounds miss (offering the lowered range), but against fixed targets that I cannot miss (ie: the broad side of a barn) why is my damage not increased to match single round damage?

You can pseudo-rationalize this in various ways. The way I go with railguns is that not all of the ammo in a burst hits. Some rounds may be flawed and deformed and catch the air in a way that they go wild, or your target is moving and so you can't keep the gun aimed perfectly the entire burst, etc. For energy weapons, it may be the capacitor in the weapon isn't capable of firing a 3-shot burst where the 3 shots have the same energy as a single shot from the weapon. So the 3 shots are slightly weaker, but hit for more damage overall in a short time, so people still use them. In case that isn't explained well: Imagine a single shot is X joules, the capacitor can't hold 3x joules and can't recharge each shot in a burst to X joules, so the weapon may be firing .8X joules for each shot in a burst, or some other fraction of X joules.

Unacceptable! If the railgun had faulty ammunition, no one would use it! (besides we've got quality control and all that). Also, my broad side of the barn example does not allow for misses; there should be increased damage in this case.
As for their being weaker shots from the pulse energy weapons; why then does it use the same amount of ammo as three single shots? Remember, energy cannot be destroyed, and given how it's used here I'm not seeing it being lost either. I'm fairly confident that it is one of those disadvantageous "consulodated dice" things (where 9d4 through 12d4 would simply be 1d4x10).

Why does a "burst" from a pulsing laser weapon cut my bonus to strike in half (due to bursting), when it states that lasers and certain other energy weapons have no kick what-so ever, and make no sound?
Why is it impossible to make an aimed shot with this type of weaponry?

My group ignores that rule because it doesn't make any sense to us either. Laser weapons firing pulses = full bonus.

Actually currently mine doesn't (for the sake of rules uniformity). But what we do allow is aimed shots while bursting, as the kick doesn't happen before the aiming occurs. Ofcourse all that said, not all the damage should be directed at the same spot either; I did up a chart for the possible variances in my rules notes (actually the chart I have needs some re-working).

[Library Ogre]

Maybe. This answer is acceptable, with one but; How are they to send Repo-Bots after me if they can barely maintain a presence in NA?

It doesn't take much of a presence to shove a Repo-bot through a Rift and say "Hunt this guy down and feed him his own spleen, then blow up everything he made."

[Dog_O_War]

Maybe. This answer is acceptable, with one but; How are they to send Repo-Bots after me if they can barely maintain a presence in NA?

It doesn't take much of a presence to shove a Repo-bot through a Rift and say "Hunt this guy down and feed him his own spleen, then blow up everything he made."

But it takes alot for that robot to pass through CS territory to find that guy. They are KoS as Naruni-identified robots. Besides, while they are good at what they do they are not invicible and will always face an out-numbered scenario; what gun-runner worth his salt isn't tooling around in an armoured vehicle, or carrying alot of firepower with him?

It just seems like an unlikely scenario and an oversight on on Palladiums' behalf to assume that a person would never make a knock-off and under cut a powerful but footless company.

[Library Ogre]

Here's a trick that Naruni can employ: Build them differently. They don't have to rely on the exact same shells for their Repo-bots to be effective in getting the word out that copying Naruni tech is bad for health and welfare.

[Blight]

What does the damage; the ammo or the gun?

Before we start a "it's the gun! No, it's the ammo!" I'd state that this one is rhetorical. It's both, dependent on the firearm in question.

BUT the follow-up question is my real question; If Naruni manufactures plasma "cartridges", what's stopping me from just buying ammo and producing a knock-off gun for far cheaper than the 30+grand their products are costing me?

Why does a single round of a railgun often do only 1d4MD, but infact loses damage somewhere when it bursts for 20-30 rounds at 1d4x10MD?
Why would this same phenomina happen with bursting energy weapons, specifically laser pulse? I can see a burst of rail-rounds having some rounds miss (offering the lowered range), but against fixed targets that I cannot miss (ie: the broad side of a barn) why is my damage not increased to match single round damage?

Why does a "burst" from a pulsing laser weapon cut my bonus to strike in half (due to bursting), when it states that lasers and certain other energy weapons have no kick what-so ever, and make no sound?
Why is it impossible to make an aimed shot with this type of weaponry?


Now, as a disclaimer to your answers; I have my own theories and all involve poor writing and bad design mechanics.

Finally, why is there not a communal rules-logic update not on these boards? I know we all have our house-rules and rules fixes (I've posted some of mine in the GM forum), but has no one bothered to create and sticky such an effort?

The real answer to the weapon damage questions is simple it's a way to control the damage output. There is no reason the micro-secound burst would not hit in an amazingly tight group. It's to nerf it.

[LostOne]

Since Naruni has a presence (not huge, but a presence), they likely already have a complement of Repo Bots around. If they need more, well, if Naruni is going to open a rift to send one, they're just as likely to send more than one. If they are concerned about the CS attacking them on sight, the Repo Bots can adjust their course to avoid the heavy CS patrolled areas.

[Lenwen]

How powerfull would a Coalition Kill Hound be if augmented by the Juicer Process thusly Creating a ...

Kill Hound Juicer ... ...

haha might have to try that one ..

[cornholioprime]

Maybe. This answer is acceptable, with one but; How are they to send Repo-Bots after me if they can barely maintain a presence in NA?

Naruni Agent: "Agent Smith, teleport to Rifts Earth and hand out this bundle of cash to the first Rogue Dog Boy/D-Bee/Practitioner of Magic/Corrupt CS Trooper/Bounty Hunter/Assassin who first cripples Dog_O_War in the most painful way possible, THEN delivers him to us, alive."

Agent Smith: "But Sir: he only owes us 50,000 Credits, and you're giving me a million credits as Reward Money!!"

Naruni Agent: "And for the purposes of maintaining our overall reputation, it's money well-spent."

Who says that Naruni uses only Repo-Bots??

[cornholioprime]

What does the damage; the ammo or the gun?

Before we start a "it's the gun! No, it's the ammo!" I'd state that this one is rhetorical. It's both, dependent on the firearm in question.

BUT the follow-up question is my real question; If Naruni manufactures plasma "cartridges", what's stopping me from just buying ammo and producing a knock-off gun for far cheaper than the 30+grand their products are costing me?

Why does a single round of a railgun often do only 1d4MD, but infact loses damage somewhere when it bursts for 20-30 rounds at 1d4x10MD?
Why would this same phenomina happen with bursting energy weapons, specifically laser pulse? I can see a burst of rail-rounds having some rounds miss (offering the lowered range), but against fixed targets that I cannot miss (ie: the broad side of a barn) why is my damage not increased to match single round damage?

Why does a "burst" from a pulsing laser weapon cut my bonus to strike in half (due to bursting), when it states that lasers and certain other energy weapons have no kick what-so ever, and make no sound?
Why is it impossible to make an aimed shot with this type of weaponry?


Now, as a disclaimer to your answers; I have my own theories and all involve poor writing and bad design mechanics.

Finally, why is there not a communal rules-logic update not on these boards? I know we all have our house-rules and rules fixes (I've posted some of mine in the GM forum), but has no one bothered to create and sticky such an effort?

The real answer to the weapon damage questions is simple it's a way to control the damage output. There is no reason the micro-secound burst would not hit in an amazingly tight group. It's to nerf it.

What Blight said.

The many instances in which things in Rifts™ don't make sense, are usually tied to some aspect or other of Game Balance or maintaining the setting.

[cornholioprime]

How powerfull would a Coalition Kill Hound be if augmented by the Juicer Process thusly Creating a ...

Kill Hound Juicer ... ...

haha might have to try that one ..

Not much more 'badass' than, say, a Hyperion or an exceptionally fast Titan or Mega Juicer, it seems to me.

[Lenwen]

How powerfull would a Coalition Kill Hound be if augmented by the Juicer Process thusly Creating a ...

Kill Hound Juicer ... ...

haha might have to try that one ..

Not much more 'badass' than, say, a Hyperion or an exceptionally fast Titan or Mega Juicer, it seems to me.

Keywords in your phrase not much more ...
Imagine if the CS started to produce Kill Hound Juicers ... on a mass lvl ? an handed them all Samas .. Yikes ..

[cornholioprime]

How powerfull would a Coalition Kill Hound be if augmented by the Juicer Process thusly Creating a ...

Kill Hound Juicer ... ...

haha might have to try that one ..

Not much more 'badass' than, say, a Hyperion or an exceptionally fast Titan or Mega Juicer, it seems to me.

Keywords in your phrase not much more ...
Imagine if the CS started to produce Kill Hound Juicers ... on a mass lvl ? an handed them all Samas .. Yikes ..

It wouldn't be very reasonable for them to pursue this course of action.

Dog-Boys live considerably shorter lives than Humans...and Humans have a shortened lifespan as Juicers as it is...

What would ya get with a Dog-Boy Juicer?? Two, three years tops???

(NOTE: Even in the Coalition States, Dog Boys live at best only about 1/2 what a human does...which should logically meant that they only exist for about 2-3 years as a Juicer. Not even enough time for them to become very badass as soldiers, and barely enough time to get through a intensive training regimen.)

[Lenwen]

Agreed .


Now what about that High Lord Mega Juicer ? lives 1000years ... so half that = 500 years of being a mega juicer in conjunction with thier OTHER ablities ...

That would be nasty NPC ....

[LostOne]

Now what about that High Lord Mega Juicer ? lives 1000years ... so half that = 500 years of being a mega juicer in conjunction with thier OTHER ablities ...

I'm pretty sure the High Lords aren't a race listed as being able to receive Juicer augmentation in JU.

I'm also trying to figure where you got the half lifespan figure? Juicers of other races live a much shorter time than half their lifespan. A true atlantean receiving juicer augmentation is listed as only living something like 20-25 years if I remember right. They normally live over 1000 years I believe.

[Lenwen]

Now what about that High Lord Mega Juicer ? lives 1000years ... so half that = 500 years of being a mega juicer in conjunction with thier OTHER ablities ...

I'm pretty sure the High Lords aren't a race listed as being able to receive Juicer augmentation in JU.

I'm also trying to figure where you got the half lifespan figure? Juicers of other races live a much shorter time than half their lifespan. A true atlantean receiving juicer augmentation is listed as only living something like 20-25 years if I remember right. They normally live over 1000 years I believe.

I know its not in Juicers Uprisings ...
I cant remember if its in Splynn book or where I willl scoure my books tho an be back with where I found it at ..
And tho your right even if they lived for 1'000 years .. thier lifespan might not be more then a few decades ... as a juicer ..

[Subjugator]

Now what about that High Lord Mega Juicer ? lives 1000years ... so half that = 500 years of being a mega juicer in conjunction with thier OTHER ablities ...

I'm pretty sure the High Lords aren't a race listed as being able to receive Juicer augmentation in JU.

I'm also trying to figure where you got the half lifespan figure? Juicers of other races live a much shorter time than half their lifespan. A true atlantean receiving juicer augmentation is listed as only living something like 20-25 years if I remember right. They normally live over 1000 years I believe.

Since gargoyles and brodkil can become juicers, I have no reason to believe that unaugmented High Lords cannot become such. I'd limit it to Maxi-Killers, as per gargoyles and brodkil, but I'd let one become a juicer.

Also - it wouldn't be half. It'd be approximately 5% of the normal lifespan.

/Sub

[Lenwen]

ok it does not flat out state one way or another if the mighty High Lord can or can not be a juicer ..

Using Reason I have therefor come up with the logical solution as to Why they could easily be a juicer ...

One They are close enough to human as the system can easily work with thier system .

Two They are in fact SDC/Hp beings prior to being linked to the Splugorthian they are assigned too ..

Both of the reasons are the key factors in the Juicer Creation process ..

So I can not come up with any reasons outside of that , that they could not become juicers ..

IF you could help me tho perhaps I may see why they could not become Juicers ..

[Lenwen]

How low do you have to fly to stay under the radar?

bascially what's the highest you can fly without being detected?

Flying under the radar is usually anything under 50ft or less ... generally speaking ..
Thats the highest I allow my PC's to fly with out being spotted on Radar ..

[Library Ogre]

How low do you have to fly to stay under the radar?

bascially what's the highest you can fly without being detected?

It depends on the discrimination of the radar, and the nature of the terrain. If you're on a pool table, you can probably detect people flying pretty low, whereas rippled land is going to make it a lot harder to separate them from ground clutter.

[Lenwen]

Would anyone say its impossible to have varient Species as Juicers ?
Meaning is it within the realm of possabilities to have a species actually become a juicer even when they say in the Books that " To date all attempts have ended up with death" does anyone think that there are still exeptions to the rule possibly ?

And if so how far would you as a GM allow a one time experiment (that worked) none juicer species to become a juicer ?

At the moment I introduced my big bad arse into the game ..

[Library Ogre]

Would anyone say its impossible to have varient Species as Juicers ?
Meaning is it within the realm of possabilities to have a species actually become a juicer even when they say in the Books that " To date all attempts have ended up with death" does anyone think that there are still exeptions to the rule possibly ?

And if so how far would you as a GM allow a one time experiment (that worked) none juicer species to become a juicer ?

At the moment I introduced my big bad arse into the game ..

Impossible? No. However, I would make it incredibly expensive, both in development and upkeep. A regular juicer can go into a store and buy "Juicer Maintenence Kit #3... Good for Juicers in their 3rd year of quick death". A flooper juicer would have to pretty much individually buy his drugs, after having a cyber-doc examine his bio-comp to figure out what the heck he needed more of.

[LostOne]

Would anyone say its impossible to have varient Species as Juicers ?

Not impossible, but it may require custom chip implant, custom drug harness, and, most importantly/dangerously, custom drug cocktail. Getting the drug mix wrong for a new race is likely to kill them within minutes/hours/days rather than years. That custom drug mix is going to probably be prohibitively expensive. If I was playing that juicer, I'd make sure he had the juicer doctor skills so he can monitor himself and mix his own drugs from what is likely to be cheaper chemicals purchased separately.

So chances are if this guy is the first known member of his race to be a juicer, there were probably dozens of secret tests on kidnapped (or possibly stupid/gullible volunteers) of his race that didn't survive the process.

Also, as a GM, I'd have to very carefully consider any proposed races a player wants to make into a juicer.

[Lenwen]

Would anyone say its impossible to have varient Species as Juicers ?

Impossible? No. However, I would make it incredibly expensive, both in development and upkeep.

Not impossible, but it may require custom chip implant, custom drug harness, and, most importantly/dangerously, custom drug cocktail.

Good enough for me then I (playing as Lord Splynncryth) Created a Octoman (splynn pg 81)Hyperion Juicer(JU pg 35) .. 3 years ago he has 1 year left of life (according to preliminary tests) but this Juicer is insain an Lord Splynn Had him deployed to Citidale One in Nova Scotia he is number 4 in charge of the entire Base under 2 High Lords an 1 Kittani and a Kydian ... Arn D'lit as he is known is the Bases Leader for its recon an strike force team leader .

[Lenwen]

Can a vampire wearing New Deadboy armor ... Stand outside in the daylight ??
Considering the new deadboy armor has a glass shield for a face plate ?

[LostOne]

Can a vampire wearing New Deadboy armor ... Stand outside in the daylight ??
Considering the new deadboy armor has a glass shield for a face plate ?

In my games, yes. You see this kind of thing in the Blade movies. Vampires in full motorcycle leathers and helmets, or using thickly slathered on sunblock, etc. I've done it to my players before, a group of CS grunts turned vampires wearing field-patched environmental body armors...

That group preferred to melee against CS soldiers because the CS soldiers do less damage with their vibro blades than with their ranged weapons. Imagine their surprise when the first CS soldier to attack grabs a player and throws him 50 feet into a wall.

[Lenwen]

A LOT of the Celestial Mage's Spells have some very difficult implications. Two of them in particular can be used to much abuse:

1)
Fist of Jupiter: spell description says that it flattens down the target with the equivalent of 10g's worth of force. Now WHAT happens if this is done in outerspace? WHAM baddy is now accelerating at 980 meters per second per second? What direction does he go? Directly down? FROM WHERE? Does he constantly go in the direction of his feet? BTW the longest duration is 1 minute which means that it can accelerate a baddy to over 200,000 Kph in that time. The baddy will have to counteract this velocity in order to stop or turn around. MOREOVER can this be used for limited space travel? Say accelerate yourself a couple of times till you build up a half million KPH and then wait till you get to your destination and reverse the process? Of course this assumes your ability to accurately target your arrival as in flight maneuvering would be impossible and oh yeah 10gs is above what most humans would pass out from. Fun Fun Fun.

I would say if in fact thier ability states that . I would allow it . But like you said the 10g's is absolutly far and away above anything any mortal human could withstand an would pass out prior to the second attempt to accelerate with the Fist of Jupiter.

2)
Next Spell (I have no idea what the name is, sorry!): This spells allows the mage to orient himself according to whatever plane he wants. Whatever surface his feet are on is down. He walks to the wall and puts a foot on it and suddenly its down and the floor. Basically it lets you walks on walls, ceilings and the decks of capital ships that have had their gravity devices blown. SO HERE IS THE CONUNDRUM: Joe, our Celestial Mage, is spending some relaxing time walking along his ceiling, upside down of course. His wife has ordered some skylights installed but the glass panes have not been placed. SOOO poor Joe steps right through the hole.....what happens? does he keep on getting dragged "downward", ie "up" relative to our orientation, and get rocketed into the sky for the duration of the spell? lemme know what happens to Joe!

I would rule since the spell says what ever his feet touch is down .. upon not touching anything but air ... he thusly falls to the floor . If the ability states he has the power to walk on air however this is entirely different then .

[cornholioprime]

We all know that the Great Cataclysm was brought about in the low-energy Earth of Rifts.

What might have happened if the 6-billion+ lives "sacrificed" on December 22, 2098 had occurred on a Rifts Earth already as high in magic energy as it is today??

[Library Ogre]

We all know that the Great Cataclysm was brought about in the low-energy Earth of Rifts.

What might have happened if the 6-billion+ lives "sacrificed" on December 22, 2098 had occurred on a Rifts Earth already as high in magic energy as it is today??

IMO, not nearly as much. There would still be a lot of Rifts opening due to the energy outpouring, but it wouldn't be nearly as cataclysmic.

Think about a circuit. Pre-Rifts Earth was a poor conductor... there were very few active channels, some built in resistors (remnants of the Atlantean ritual), and not a lot of current running. You throw billions of deaths, combined with a solstice, a planetary alignment, and several blocks being blown out by dimensional experiments into that, and you've got a system that will blow out like a lightbulb hooked up to a car battery.

Rifts Earth, on the other hand, is the equivalent of a superconductor. You may get a little bit of heat, but you won't get a blow-out.

[Zer0 Kay]

not truly a rifts question, just an old roleplaying question from back in the day.

If I swing at you with a sword that always strikes true and you block with a shield that always intercepts incoming blows, what happens?

Both weapons must make a save vs crushing blow (or whatever is appropriate) the loser or lower roll's item breaks, the other blocks/strikes as it would normally.

You sure this isn't the same question as what happens when the path of an unstopable force intersects with an immovalbe mass? Which of course causes a ricotchette. Except in this case it is opposite, upside down and twisted. So an always blocks meets an always strikes equals both weapons shatter. Better reason for your owners of both to be wary about what they swing/block.

[BigKab]

In my games, yes. You see this kind of thing in the Blade movies. Vampires in full motorcycle leathers and helmets, or using thickly slathered on sunblock, etc. I've done it to my players before, a group of CS grunts turned vampires wearing field-patched environmental body armors...

You let them use the sunblock scheme? Had someone try that with fatal results, he didn't squirt in his eyes,mouth and any other exposed holes.

Does it continue like that? Seems like something Palladium would've blocked.

I'm just reading the Spell, my friend.

ANY damage inflicted upon the caster is inflicted back upon his attacker.

My read on it:

Vampires can't kill one another by just claws and teeth alone.

But the spell causes magical damage.

OTOH, the magical damage of the first Vamp, is inflicted on his attacker, and in turn the magical damage inflicted on the Attacker Vamp, is in turn placed upon the Target Vamp.

I say that for the duration of the spell, virtually infinite damage is mutually inflicted onto the two Vamps......and they are both in a world of pain even by Vampire standards.

Sorry but vampires can kill other vampires with teeth alone.

[Talavar]

In my games, yes. You see this kind of thing in the Blade movies. Vampires in full motorcycle leathers and helmets, or using thickly slathered on sunblock, etc. I've done it to my players before, a group of CS grunts turned vampires wearing field-patched environmental body armors...

You let them use the sunblock scheme? Had someone try that with fatal results, he didn't squirt in his eyes,mouth and any other exposed holes.

Does it continue like that? Seems like something Palladium would've blocked.

I'm just reading the Spell, my friend.

ANY damage inflicted upon the caster is inflicted back upon his attacker.

My read on it:

Vampires can't kill one another by just claws and teeth alone.

But the spell causes magical damage.

OTOH, the magical damage of the first Vamp, is inflicted on his attacker, and in turn the magical damage inflicted on the Attacker Vamp, is in turn placed upon the Target Vamp.

I say that for the duration of the spell, virtually infinite damage is mutually inflicted onto the two Vamps......and they are both in a world of pain even by Vampire standards.

Sorry but vampires can kill other vampires with teeth alone.

No, vampires can damage each other with teeth and claws. Without a stake & fire, sunlight or running water coming into it somewhere, they'll just regenerate from that damage.

[Lenwen]

In my games, yes. You see this kind of thing in the Blade movies. Vampires in full motorcycle leathers and helmets, or using thickly slathered on sunblock, etc. I've done it to my players before, a group of CS grunts turned vampires wearing field-patched environmental body armors...

You let them use the sunblock scheme? Had someone try that with fatal results, he didn't squirt in his eyes,mouth and any other exposed holes.

Does it continue like that? Seems like something Palladium would've blocked.

I'm just reading the Spell, my friend.

ANY damage inflicted upon the caster is inflicted back upon his attacker.

My read on it:

Vampires can't kill one another by just claws and teeth alone.

But the spell causes magical damage.

OTOH, the magical damage of the first Vamp, is inflicted on his attacker, and in turn the magical damage inflicted on the Attacker Vamp, is in turn placed upon the Target Vamp.

I say that for the duration of the spell, virtually infinite damage is mutually inflicted onto the two Vamps......and they are both in a world of pain even by Vampire standards.

Sorry but vampires can kill other vampires with teeth alone.

No, vampires can damage each other with teeth and claws. Without a stake & fire, sunlight or running water coming into it somewhere, they'll just regenerate from that damage.

Ok then where does it state that they can not kill each other with tooth an nail ?

[Talavar]

Now that I actually look, I can't find it. I'd always assumed it worked like dragons - able to hurt vampires with their bare hands, but not able to actually kill them in such a manner, but I can't find textual proof to back that up. "Other Vampires" isn't listed in the ways to kill vampires, but the Vampire Kingdoms book is organized weird anyway.

[LostOne]

In my games, yes. You see this kind of thing in the Blade movies. Vampires in full motorcycle leathers and helmets, or using thickly slathered on sunblock, etc. I've done it to my players before, a group of CS grunts turned vampires wearing field-patched environmental body armors...

You let them use the sunblock scheme? Had someone try that with fatal results, he didn't squirt in his eyes,mouth and any other exposed holes.

UV blocking contact lenses or goggles, keep your mouth shut or put a bandana over the bottom half of your face cowboy style. Or since the CS grunts were wearing field-patched environmental body armor they were covered anyway...sunblock underneath is in case the armor gets damaged enough that sun gets through.

[csbioborg]

how can the Oeegyn comunicate with the Golden Table telepathically when it cannot be pschically probed by any means

what is a reasonable MDC for scacath madde armor. Remember there is no listing given

Myrln can summon 110 tectonic enitties max what would be a solid number for Zashan max and can the Lady of the Lake and Gunievere do the same

What's the rule on damage during ley line storms it does 1d4 sdc or 4d6 mdc but I don't see it giving a figure how often this damage is taken. is it once a melee? That's how I've always played but that's a house rule.

If the Scacath can make indestritable nails and swords could one not make all its items indestruable by patching many small nails together

[LostOne]

If the Scacath can make indestritable nails and swords could one not make all its items indestruable by patching many small nails together

How do you propose to connect all the nails together? Whatever connects them needs to be indestructible too, or one MDC blast and you're left with a bunch of disconnected nails falling to the ground.

[Lenwen]

I have a question. Lenwen, how old are you?

And why do your questions make little pieces of my soul die?

Too damn old now days to care really

And thank you its mah job.

[csbioborg]

put the nails in MD plastic man and give the plasticman a AR rating. What I'm getting at though was why the nails are indestruable when most of his other items aren't and I actually was more concerned about getting feedback about the other parts of my question. Obviously indestruable armor for everyone is not a good idea.

In my one jaunt into England so far I did have fun as my favortite PC (CS Commando later turned in to bio borg) working for the society of sages. My group was able to catch a Chiang Ku dragon by tricking him into siting into a a chair comprised of scatch mancles and injecting him with a variant of splogorth dragon micorbes so he could not metaphoris. It kinda of irrated the DM since he wanted this to redeem our souls expsoing us to "good dragons". I've been in love with the Society of Sages since the day I read it so that wasn't going to happen. He made us actually me since it was my idea to role play the entire interogation of the chiang ku for the elixer forumla.

[Temporalmage]

energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely shifted around.

Have you read magic spells recently??

Fireball, Lightning bolt, energy bolt, etc. All energy that is being CREATED!
Globe of silence DESTROYS sound energy, plus there are spells that totally destroy any kinetic or energy attack in thier area of influence. We're talking magic here, which totally negates any physics or science you try to bring into the equation. If it didn't it would simply be another area of science, and the CS would teach it at Chi-Town!!

[Library Ogre]

Have you read magic spells recently??

Fireball, Lightning bolt, energy bolt, etc. All energy that is being CREATED!

They each have a cost in energy. I'd say its more likely that they convert energy into another form.

Globe of silence DESTROYS sound energy, plus there are spells that totally destroy any kinetic or energy attack in thier area of influence. We're talking magic here, which totally negates any physics or science you try to bring into the equation. If it didn't it would simply be another area of science, and the CS would teach it at Chi-Town!!

Magic is a science. It has laws that can be experimentally investigated, and can create effects that are reproducible. Given Globe of Silence, it is possible that the law regarding the creation and destruction of energy and matter is wrong... or perhaps GoS turns it very inefficentially into heat, meaning there is an incremental rise in temperature, which isn't noticeable due to the horrible ratio.

[csbioborg]

energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely shifted around.

Have you read magic spells recently??

Fireball, Lightning bolt, energy bolt, etc. All energy that is being CREATED!
Globe of silence DESTROYS sound energy, plus there are spells that totally destroy any kinetic or energy attack in thier area of influence. We're talking magic here, which totally negates any physics or science you try to bring into the equation. If it didn't it would simply be another area of science, and the CS would teach it at Chi-Town!!

PPE is energy that is conveted into spells

Globe of silence and the like negate sound etc. THe mechanism isn't explained but a likely scenario is all sound generated is negated by a equal opposite type of sound much like the sound suppresion system from rifts japan. Chi town is slowly begining to learn about ley line energy i.e. magical energy as is shown with the level at lone star and the coalition scentist ability to harness it to soe extent. They don't have a ful grasp of it yet so they can't teach it yet. You might as well ask why they aren't teaching about creating artifical blackholes.

[Temporalmage]

Waving your hands around and mumbeling a few words while expending a few PPE gives you the net result of blowing a hole in solid rock. Yes this can be repllicated by those with the spell, it can be taught to others, and somtimes may seem to follow some sort of scientific principles. But what keeps magic special, and allows it to break conventional physics and science is belief and faith. If you don't believe in magic, AND that you can cast magic, then you'll never be able to do it. Period. Yet if you don't believe in gravity, you'll still fall down. Therefor applying physics and science to somthing that breaks the laws of physics and science is like using tea leaves to figure out the tensile strength of steel. Not gonna work.

It was stated that you can't create or destroy energy, only displace it. As that was stated where it applied to magic I disagree. Magic can rip the very fabric of space and time. Destroying or creating energy, kinetic or otherwise, is lowball for magic in comparison to that.

[Dog_O_War]

Ok, not rifts...well it was but they were using conversions.

Can a jedi use a lightsaber to block a laser rifle?? The GM said the laser is traveling at the speed of light and that no one can move that fast. The player argued that the Jedi uses precognition to determine where the shot will hit before it is fired.

^^ No I wasn't one of them but I agree with the player.

A Jedi can, and the player was right. If your GM continues to use science as a defence, ask him then to explain the following; FIREBALL! (physically impossible to create on via science), telepathy, and instant healing with zero technology present (re: a priest or palladin calls apon the power of a god).

Also, tell your GM that he is a goober for arguing the "physics" of a laser-sword wielding psychic's ability to block a laser beam, and that the internets (all of them) know he is wrong.

[LostOne]

put the nails in MD plastic man and give the plasticman a AR rating. What I'm getting at though was why the nails are indestruable when most of his other items aren't and I actually was more concerned about getting feedback about the other parts of my question. Obviously indestruable armor for everyone is not a good idea.

I wouldn't let that fly in my game. Indestructible nails in MD plastic man, the plastic still will take the same damage, and melt/shatter/vaporize around the nails and the nails fall out. Depending on the nature of the attack, the person wearing that plastic man armor might find indestructible shrapnel entering their body.

The best reason I could think of for indestructible nails is this: In severe weather like tornados, hurricanes, etc, nails are the most common structural fail-point in wood & nail construction (most housing in the US). Before a 2x4 would be snapped in half, the nails holding it in place have sheared off.

[glitterboy2098]

Waving your hands around and mumbeling a few words while expending a few PPE gives you the net result of blowing a hole in solid rock. Yes this can be repllicated by those with the spell, it can be taught to others, and somtimes may seem to follow some sort of scientific principles. But what keeps magic special, and allows it to break conventional physics and science is belief and faith. If you don't believe in magic, AND that you can cast magic, then you'll never be able to do it. Period. Yet if you don't believe in gravity, you'll still fall down. Therefor applying physics and science to somthing that breaks the laws of physics and science is like using tea leaves to figure out the tensile strength of steel. Not gonna work.

and yet this arguement does not hold water. light is a force, and i do not need to belevie in it to see it. but i do need to beleive that the little button on a flashlight could be a switch to turn it on before i try it out.

all the hand waving, the mumbo-jumbo, is just a 'switch', a means of making it eisier for a person to perform the act of turning potential psychic energy into another form of energy/matter. the mechanics do not require it, nor do they technically require beleif. it's just that until one beleives something is possible, they will never be able to figure it out, and for a process like 'magic', which is largely mental effort, if waving your hands and saying random sounds makes you more confindent, it'll help your mental state.

as always, clarkes law applies. if i was to bring the aformentioned flashlight to a caveman, and showed him what to push, he'd no doubt consider it a magic thing. and when the battery runs out, he'd likely think the magic had left it.

there have been real cases of this kind of thing. where more modernized cultures encounter less modernized ones, and the less modernized ones interprite things like camera's, lighters, and so on as magic or supernatural. all because they do not understand the process being used, because it is outside of their understanding of the world. "he just rubbed his finger along the side of the rock and a flame shot out!"


in palladium, it's the same. magic is a set of physical laws and processes that turn PPE into other forms of energy/matter/work. the mechanisms of that conversion are not fully documented or understood by most (they are either cloaked in too many generations of superstition, or have not been studied sufficently). some cultures in the megaverse have figured out the mechanisms to a degree. i point you to the UWW and how some of their members have technological based 'magic' devices, that are not TW as found on earth.

i direct you to the SNRLS system of the republic of japan, able to sense 'magic' energy using pure technology. the CS's RSCG has already been mentioned. the NGR continues to do the same, a project that produced the U-rounds.

It was stated that you can't create or destroy energy, only displace it. As that was stated where it applied to magic I disagree. Magic can rip the very fabric of space and time. Destroying or creating energy, kinetic or otherwise, is lowball for magic in comparison to that.

ripping space and time again is merely using energy to manipulate energy/matter. you take PPE and convert it into the severly bent space needed ot link places within spacetime or nearby spacetimes.

and as mentioned, 'magic' spells convert PPE into some other form of energy/matter/work.

so there is no energy being created or destroyed. just energy being converted (in various levels of efficency) to other forms.

[Library Ogre]

and yet this arguement does not hold water. light is a force, and i do not need to belevie in it to see it. but i do need to beleive that the little button on a flashlight could be a switch to turn it on before i try it out.

Seeing light is not the same as using it. That's being affected by it. If you do not believe in magic, you can still be affected by it. Likewise, turning on a lightswitch isn't the same as generating light by your own ability... you're relying on years of technological innovation, and simply performing an action that takes advantage of that. The people who invented lightbulbs could be said to be generating light, but even they followed an experimental process which raises the level of certainty about things working.

[glitterboy2098]

and using the scientific method requires a belief that there will be some sort of result. otherwise you will not even think of doing a test. even if no major result occurs you have to believe a result might occur.

no belief = no result.


my example of a flashlight might have been a poor choice, but there is little in our own reality to match the innate ability to use PPE that all living things have in palladium's megaverse..

[Temporalmage]

As I said before, the statement "energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely shifted around." is false when applied to magic. And now I will prove it.

There is a spell, whose name I've forgoten and I'm too lazy to look it up. It's an area effect spell that stops EVERYTHING in it's area of influence including sound.

This spell stops bullets, energy blasts of all types, movement of all types, even sound can not pass through this area. The spell costs X PPE, but it don't matter if the spell stops a single hummingbird in flight, or a billion bullets (which fall harmlessly to the ground when the spell duration expires I might add) the cost in PPE is exactly the same.

This spell specifically breaks the laws of physics. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This goes out the window.

Wanna change those bullets to laser blasts? No prob. In the area effect the laser blasts simply disapate, going away. This applies to a single blast, or a full on barrage from a CS Battalion! The energy is negated, destroyed.

I'm not arguing that there isn't sound principles of science that could be applied to magic. I'm only arguing that that statement: "energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely shifted around." is false when dealing with magic. Even though it may appear to be a true statement with some magic, it was stated to apply to ALL magic.