Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[Nightmask]

There is no listed potoculture power source in the UEDF and ASC mecha,this is a verifiable fact.

However they are also on a list of items the Protoculture Targeting System works against. This is also a verifiable fact.

Anything contradicting those facts is a house rule.

Except it's not a house rule to remove something from a list that it doesn't belong on, it's a house rule to insist that the wrongly listed items do actually have something to make them valid by treating the list as being infallible. As a listed fact the sensor only tracks active protoculture power systems, so as a fact the only things that belong on a list of things it tracks are things that belong on it, so as a fact anything on the list without reason to be there doesn't belong on the list and should be removed. That's not a house rule that's enforcing the canon rule that the list only contain things that belong on it.

[13eowulf]

Except it's not a house rule to remove something from a list *snip*

Actually that is the exact definition of a house rule

House Rule: A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules.

House rules can range from the tiniest of changes or additions to substantial deviations that alter the entire game play, depending on the imagination of the players. Most groups have house rules to some extent.

So if the list is published, and you change it, that is a house rule.

[Nightmask]

Except it's not a house rule to remove something from a list *snip*

Actually that is the exact definition of a house rule

House Rule: A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules.

House rules can range from the tiniest of changes or additions to substantial deviations that alter the entire game play, depending on the imagination of the players. Most groups have house rules to some extent.

So if the list is published, and you change it, that is a house rule.

If you're going to reply to a post include the entire post instead of cutting things out, and no, it's not a house rule to remove something from a list it doesn't belong on it's a house rule to make up and otherwise invent things to try and justify something being on a list of things it doesn't belong on. If they'd listed an apple in that list of mecha would you insist that apples are protoculture powered mecha and that it actually made sense that apples belonged on the list and that removing it from the list 'just a house rule', or would you acknowledge the obvious error and remove it? Because I'd really hate to think you'd actually have people carrying apples around being targeted by the Invid because 'well apples were on the list and that's all that matters'.

[eliakon]

Except it's not a house rule to remove something from a list *snip*

Actually that is the exact definition of a house rule

House Rule: A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules.

House rules can range from the tiniest of changes or additions to substantial deviations that alter the entire game play, depending on the imagination of the players. Most groups have house rules to some extent.

So if the list is published, and you change it, that is a house rule.

If you're going to reply to a post include the entire post instead of cutting things out, and no, it's not a house rule to remove something from a list it doesn't belong on it's a house rule to make up and otherwise invent things to try and justify something being on a list of things it doesn't belong on. If they'd listed an apple in that list of mecha would you insist that apples are protoculture powered mecha and that it actually made sense that apples belonged on the list and that removing it from the list 'just a house rule', or would you acknowledge the obvious error and remove it? Because I'd really hate to think you'd actually have people carrying apples around being targeted by the Invid because 'well apples were on the list and that's all that matters'.

But making the decision that the list is invalid is itself a house rule. Yes, yes we get it, you don't think the list should be there, and yes we get that you have logical support for why that is. It doesn't change the fact that the rules as written still say the list is accurate. The point here is not that the list is or is not correct. The point is that, as far as the rules as written go, the list is correct until such time as it is explicitly, in print, made not correct.

[Seto Kaiba]

But making the decision that the list is invalid is itself a house rule. [...]

Not if the list is in direct and obvious contradiction with the rule to which it belongs... or if a later publication comes along and directly invalidates it. Both are true of this case.

The full text of the rule clearly indicates that the mecha in question are subject to detection by Invid protoculture sensors specifically because they use protoculture power sources. No other reason is given for them to be detectable. Subsequent books published in the game line provide stats that clearly indicate that those mecha do not use protoculture, and that a mecha or vehicle which is not protoculture-powered (i.e. not using or emitting "protoculture energy") is invisible to the sensor in question.

This is not, per your own definition, a "House Rule" for the simple reason that it is not in any way a deviation of game play from the official rules.

You see, the list you're so fond of citing DOES NOT simply state that the Invid sensors can detect those mecha, period. What it actually does say is that those mecha on the list are detectable SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they contain a protoculture power source that is emitting protoculture energy for use in powering the mecha in whole or in part.

The subsequently-published Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books contain the RPG official stats for those mecha... official stats that conspicuously fail to mention the word "protoculture" at all, let alone indicate the presence of a protoculture energy source or any form of protoculture energy-dependent system. The later New Generation book gives a confirmation that mecha and vehicles which are not protoculture-powered are not visible to those sensors.

So... the reason that leaving the VF-1, the old Destroids, and the ASC mecha off the Invid scopes is simply a matter of the RPG's explicit statements:

1. The core book says "These mecha are detectable specifically and solely because they're using a protoculture energy source for power."
2. The Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books give official stats stats for the listed mecha books that say "These mecha don't use protoculture energy sources, they use fusion or hydrogen fuel cells."
3. The New Generation source book says "Vehicles that are not protoculture-powered are invisible to Invid protoculture sensors".

Now, what is the logical conclusion going solely upon what is printed in the books. If a rule says "This mecha is detectable because it uses X" and the mecha's stats clearly show that "this mecha doesn't use X", and further rules say that "if you don't use X, the sensors can't see you", the only logical conclusion based on the actual text of the rules is that the mecha are invisible to the sensor because the later-printed stats indicate that the specific reason for their detection in the original rule is not, in fact, present at all.

Therefore, with an eye towards following the rules as literally as possible, the mecha aren't detectable to Invid sensors because their specific rules clearly indicate that what the Invid sensors detect isn't present.

To give an analogy with the same basic phraseology of the core book's rule:

An airport metal detector sounds an alarm when it detects any metal object entering the detection area. This would apply to guns, knives, belt buckles, coins, car keys, computers, and any objects made from metal or containing metal.

If a character enters the metal detector with a plastic knife from the food court, should the sensor go off because the rule says it detects knives? No, obviously not. It's clear from the greater context of the rule that the sensor only detects knives when they're made out of metal. After all, it's a METAL detector, not a knife detector. The same is true for the Invid sensor.

The Invid protoculture sensor detects, per its text, any technology which is emitting and/or using protoculture energy. In short, it detects protoculture power sources and things that use protoculture power sources. Per their specific rules, the VF-1, destroids, and the ASC hardware don't use or contain protoculture power sources, so they shouldn't be detectable even though they're erroneously listed.

[eliakon]

But making the decision that the list is invalid is itself a house rule. [...]

Not if the list is in direct and obvious contradiction with the rule to which it belongs... or if a later publication comes along and directly invalidates it. Both are true of this case.
<huge snip>

I think you still missing the fundamental basis of this disagreement.
let me try again with small easy to digest points.

there are two views on the PTS. For simplicity I will call them the Shadow Chronicle or SC view, and the Macross/Southern Cross or MSC view.

SC:
1 The book has a list of mecha that can be targeted
2 Later books came out and said that the mecha did not use protoculture as their fuel source
3 the later books did not however explicitly say 'the old list is in error, these should come off'
4 thus in the SC view the mecha are seen as still being able to be targeted. This is usually seen as by having the mecha on the list some sort of nebulous not otherwise defined protoculture system that the PTS can track/target.

MSC:
1 the book has a list of mecha that use protoculture and thus be targeted
2 the later books cam out and said that those mecha did not in fact use protoculture
3 thus in the MSC view the mecha no longer belong on the list because the original list was in error

Note that both world views use the same exact books, and the same exact information to arrive at different conclusions. The reason for this is that, unfortunately the books are unclear, that the books passed up on the opportunity to clarify intent, and have rules in different places that can be seen (or not seen depending) as mutually contradictory. The waters are further muddied if one takes materials besides the published game books into account.

[13eowulf]

Except it's not a house rule to remove something from a list *snip*

Actually that is the exact definition of a house rule

House Rule: A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules.

House rules can range from the tiniest of changes or additions to substantial deviations that alter the entire game play, depending on the imagination of the players. Most groups have house rules to some extent.

So if the list is published, and you change it, that is a house rule.

If you're going to reply to a post include the entire post instead of cutting things out, and no, it's not a house rule to remove something from a list it doesn't belong on it's a house rule to make up and otherwise invent things to try and justify something being on a list of things it doesn't belong on. If they'd listed an apple in that list of mecha would you insist that apples are protoculture powered mecha and that it actually made sense that apples belonged on the list and that removing it from the list 'just a house rule', or would you acknowledge the obvious error and remove it? Because I'd really hate to think you'd actually have people carrying apples around being targeted by the Invid because 'well apples were on the list and that's all that matters'.

I quoted the only relevant text, the rest was just filler, and made irrelevant by the incorrect statement.

[13eowulf]

But making the decision that the list is invalid is itself a house rule. [...]

Not if the list is in direct and obvious contradiction with the rule to which it belongs... or if a later publication comes along and directly invalidates it. Both are true of this case.

The full text of the rule clearly indicates that the mecha in question are subject to detection by Invid protoculture sensors specifically because they use protoculture power sources. No other reason is given for them to be detectable. Subsequent books published in the game line provide stats that clearly indicate that those mecha do not use protoculture, and that a mecha or vehicle which is not protoculture-powered (i.e. not using or emitting "protoculture energy") is invisible to the sensor in question.

This is not, per your own definition, a "House Rule" for the simple reason that it is not in any way a deviation of game play from the official rules.

You see, the list you're so fond of citing DOES NOT simply state that the Invid sensors can detect those mecha, period. What it actually does say is that those mecha on the list are detectable SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they contain a protoculture power source that is emitting protoculture energy for use in powering the mecha in whole or in part.

The subsequently-published Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books contain the RPG official stats for those mecha... official stats that conspicuously fail to mention the word "protoculture" at all, let alone indicate the presence of a protoculture energy source or any form of protoculture energy-dependent system. The later New Generation book gives a confirmation that mecha and vehicles which are not protoculture-powered are not visible to those sensors.

So... the reason that leaving the VF-1, the old Destroids, and the ASC mecha off the Invid scopes is simply a matter of the RPG's explicit statements:

1. The core book says "These mecha are detectable specifically and solely because they're using a protoculture energy source for power."
2. The Macross Saga and Masters Saga source books give official stats stats for the listed mecha books that say "These mecha don't use protoculture energy sources, they use fusion or hydrogen fuel cells."
3. The New Generation source book says "Vehicles that are not protoculture-powered are invisible to Invid protoculture sensors".

Now, what is the logical conclusion going solely upon what is printed in the books. If a rule says "This mecha is detectable because it uses X" and the mecha's stats clearly show that "this mecha doesn't use X", and further rules say that "if you don't use X, the sensors can't see you", the only logical conclusion based on the actual text of the rules is that the mecha are invisible to the sensor because the later-printed stats indicate that the specific reason for their detection in the original rule is not, in fact, present at all.

Therefore, with an eye towards following the rules as literally as possible, the mecha aren't detectable to Invid sensors because their specific rules clearly indicate that what the Invid sensors detect isn't present.

To give an analogy with the same basic phraseology of the core book's rule:

An airport metal detector sounds an alarm when it detects any metal object entering the detection area. This would apply to guns, knives, belt buckles, coins, car keys, computers, and any objects made from metal or containing metal.

If a character enters the metal detector with a plastic knife from the food court, should the sensor go off because the rule says it detects knives? No, obviously not. It's clear from the greater context of the rule that the sensor only detects knives when they're made out of metal. After all, it's a METAL detector, not a knife detector. The same is true for the Invid sensor.

The Invid protoculture sensor detects, per its text, any technology which is emitting and/or using protoculture energy. In short, it detects protoculture power sources and things that use protoculture power sources. Per their specific rules, the VF-1, destroids, and the ASC hardware don't use or contain protoculture power sources, so they shouldn't be detectable even though they're erroneously listed.

That is a whole lot of rationalization for why you FEEL the rules should be different, that doesnt change the fact that they are indeed house rules once you enact that change.

House Rule: A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules.

House rules can range from the tiniest of changes or additions to substantial deviations that alter the entire game play, depending on the imagination of the players. Most groups have house rules to some extent.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think you still missing the fundamental basis of this disagreement.
let me try again with small easy to digest points.

You can simplify your fallacies as much or as little as you like, it will not make them any less fallacious, I'm afraid.

SC:
1 The book has a list of mecha that can be targeted

Here is your first fallacy. The book does not say those mecha can be targeted. It says the mecha listed can be targeted because they are protoculture powered.

2 Later books came out and said that the mecha did not use protoculture as their fuel source

Hence explicitly invalidating the previous statement that those mecha are detectable due to their use of protoculture power sources.

3 the later books did not however explicitly say 'the old list is in error, these should come off'

The later books DO NOT HAVE TO, because the rules as written state that only those mecha which are using protoculture power sources are detectable. Those mecha do not, per their rules, use protoculture power sources. QED.

1 the book has a list of mecha that use protoculture and thus be targeted
2 the later books cam out and said that those mecha did not in fact use protoculture
3 thus in the MSC view the mecha no longer belong on the list because the original list was in error

As you have misrepresented this position as well as your own, allow me to offer a few corrections to that third point. Your point 1 there should be the same in both, because the book EXPLICITLY STATES that only those mecha that use protoculture energy (those which have a protoculture power source) are detectable... and that their use of same is the very (and only) reason they are detectable.

Point 3 should be that the mecha do not belong on the list because the list asserts they're detectable purely because they're protoculture-powered, and their stats indicate (per your 2nd point) that they are not.

Note that both world views use the same exact books, and the same exact information to arrive at different conclusions. The reason for this is that, unfortunately the books are unclear, [...]

While this is broadly true, it is not, in fact, the case for this specific point. The text says, unless you rely on the wholly alien grammar that the "SC" view is apparently based upon, that mecha are detectable IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy sources. Their usage of protoculture energy (which comes only from protoculture power sources) is the sole criterion given in the text of the rule for detection. Mecha which don't use them are, per later books, invisible to the sensor. Rocket science, this ain't. In fact, it's a fairly basic logical construct.

That is a whole lot of rationalization for why you FEEL the rules should be different, that doesnt change the fact that they are indeed house rules once you enact that change.

I'm afraid you may have either misunderstood my point or failed to read it at all... to sum it up, the rule provides a basic precondition for those mecha being detectable. Specifically, it states that mecha are detectable to the Invid protoculture sensor IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy. The sole source of protoculture energy is the use of protoculture power sources, which the stats say are not present.

The "not detectable" camp here is following the actual rules as written. The rules state that only those mecha which are protoculture-powered are visible to Invid sensors. Those mecha are not, per their stats, protoculture-powered. Therefore, under the text of the rule as it is written, they are not visible to the sensor because they do not use protoculture.

To suggest that those mecha ARE detectable is a house rule because it requires that there be some form of protoculture energy source aboard those mecha that is NOT LISTED ANYWHERE IN THEIR STATS. The alternate explanation of "circuitry" is even worse, since it requires the serial addition of a technology humanity doesn't have to every mecha, and a technology the rules do not say is detectable at that...

[eliakon]

I think you still missing the fundamental basis of this disagreement.
let me try again with small easy to digest points.

You can simplify your fallacies as much or as little as you like, it will not make them any less fallacious, I'm afraid.

SC:
1 The book has a list of mecha that can be targeted

Here is your first fallacy. The book does not say those mecha can be targeted. It says the mecha listed can be targeted because they are protoculture powered.

I know that's what you WANT it to say. But the book just says that they can be targeted. Its a separate clause from the following section about ALSO targeting things that are protoculture powered. Which ALSO ignores the point of this summation (see point 3 of the full part, not your sniped quoting)

2 Later books came out and said that the mecha did not use protoculture as their fuel source

Hence explicitly invalidating the previous statement that those mecha are detectable due to their use of protoculture power sources.

Again, only if you choose to interpret this this way. Once again, reading the whole post would probably help.

3 the later books did not however explicitly say 'the old list is in error, these should come off'

The later books DO NOT HAVE TO, because the rules as written state that only those mecha which are using protoculture power sources are detectable. Those mecha do not, per their rules, use protoculture power sources. QED.

Again that is only if you choose to read the PTS sensor as 1) only targeting things with protoculture as their primary power and 2) ignore the rest of the comment here about an unidentified subsystem that keeps them on the list

1 the book has a list of mecha that use protoculture and thus be targeted
2 the later books cam out and said that those mecha did not in fact use protoculture
3 thus in the MSC view the mecha no longer belong on the list because the original list was in error

As you have misrepresented this position as well as your own, allow me to offer a few corrections to that third point. Your point 1 there should be the same in both, because the book EXPLICITLY STATES that only those mecha that use protoculture energy (those which have a protoculture power source) are detectable... and that their use of same is the very (and only) reason they are detectable.

Point 3 should be that the mecha do not belong on the list because the list asserts they're detectable purely because they're protoculture-powered, and their stats indicate (per your 2nd point) that they are not.

No point 1 is different because it IS different. the SC camp views the word "and" as an important separator making the PTS target two different things, protocultured powered items AND the list. The M/SC camp views this as a pointless distinction. I would humbly suggest that THE MAIN POINT OF CONTENTION IS PROBABLY IMPORTANT.

Note that both world views use the same exact books, and the same exact information to arrive at different conclusions. The reason for this is that, unfortunately the books are unclear, [...]

While this is broadly true, it is not, in fact, the case for this specific point. The text says, unless you rely on the wholly alien grammar that the "SC" view is apparently based upon, that mecha are detectable IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy sources. Their usage of protoculture energy (which comes only from protoculture power sources) is the sole criterion given in the text of the rule for detection. Mecha which don't use them are, per later books, invisible to the sensor. Rocket science, this ain't. In fact, it's a fairly basic logical construct.

Again your personal interpretation of how this was intended. The 'alien grammar' that is used is the English conjunction 'and' which is generally used to combine two, possibly, unrelated concepts into one smaller sentence.

That is a whole lot of rationalization for why you FEEL the rules should be different, that doesnt change the fact that they are indeed house rules once you enact that change.

I'm afraid you may have either misunderstood my point or failed to read it at all... to sum it up, the rule provides a basic precondition for those mecha being detectable. Specifically, it states that mecha are detectable to the Invid protoculture sensor IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy. The sole source of protoculture energy is the use of protoculture power sources, which the stats say are not present.

The "not detectable" camp here is following the actual rules as written. The rules state that only those mecha which are protoculture-powered are visible to Invid sensors. Those mecha are not, per their stats, protoculture-powered. Therefore, under the text of the rule as it is written, they are not visible to the sensor because they do not use protoculture.

To suggest that those mecha ARE detectable is a house rule because it requires that there be some form of protoculture energy source aboard those mecha that is NOT LISTED ANYWHERE IN THEIR STATS. The alternate explanation of "circuitry" is even worse, since it requires the serial addition of a technology humanity doesn't have to every mecha, and a technology the rules do not say is detectable at that...

Again changing the books is a house rule. Now you can justify that change all you like. But the list, right or wrong, is the Rules As Written. Changing that, even if its a 'correction' of an 'error' is a change to the RAW, and thus, by definition, a House Rule.

[Jefffar]

Metal Detectors can be triggered by anything that generates a strong enough electromagnetic field, not just metal.

[Nightmask]

Here is your first fallacy. The book does not say those mecha can be targeted. It says the mecha listed can be targeted because they are protoculture powered.

I know that's what you WANT it to say. But the book just says that they can be targeted. Its a separate clause from the following section about ALSO targeting things that are protoculture powered. Which ALSO ignores the point of this summation (see point 3 of the full part, not your sniped quoting)

No, that's not what the book says. What the book says is the sensor targets active protoculture energy signatures from protoculture power sources, it then has a list of things thought at the time to have such protoculture power supplies. The list most certainly does NOT mean 'these things also can be tracked even though they don't have protoculture', that requires an explicit statement that 'these things can also be tracked even without protoculture'.

2 Later books came out and said that the mecha did not use protoculture as their fuel source

Hence explicitly invalidating the previous statement that those mecha are detectable due to their use of protoculture power sources.

Again, only if you choose to interpret this this way. Once again, reading the whole post would probably help.

It's the only valid interpretation.

3 the later books did not however explicitly say 'the old list is in error, these should come off'

The later books DO NOT HAVE TO, because the rules as written state that only those mecha which are using protoculture power sources are detectable. Those mecha do not, per their rules, use protoculture power sources. QED.

Again that is only if you choose to read the PTS sensor as 1) only targeting things with protoculture as their primary power and 2) ignore the rest of the comment here about an unidentified subsystem that keeps them on the list

Given the text clearly says it only targets protoculture power systems that's the only way it CAN be read, and no text can be interpreted to mean that there are any unlisted protoculture subsystems that requires assuming facts not in evidence and assuming things that directly contradict actual facts.

1 the book has a list of mecha that use protoculture and thus be targeted
2 the later books cam out and said that those mecha did not in fact use protoculture
3 thus in the MSC view the mecha no longer belong on the list because the original list was in error

As you have misrepresented this position as well as your own, allow me to offer a few corrections to that third point. Your point 1 there should be the same in both, because the book EXPLICITLY STATES that only those mecha that use protoculture energy (those which have a protoculture power source) are detectable... and that their use of same is the very (and only) reason they are detectable.

Point 3 should be that the mecha do not belong on the list because the list asserts they're detectable purely because they're protoculture-powered, and their stats indicate (per your 2nd point) that they are not.

No point 1 is different because it IS different. the SC camp views the word "and" as an important separator making the PTS target two different things, protocultured powered items AND the list. The M/SC camp views this as a pointless distinction. I would humbly suggest that THE MAIN POINT OF CONTENTION IS PROBABLY IMPORTANT.

Well the SC camp would then obviously be wrong then, since the text clearly can't be interpreted that the sensor tracks both protoculture power systems and every mecha on that list whether or not it has protoculture power systems. The first sentence defines the rule regarding the sensor, and that it only tracks things with active protoculture power sources, the list that follows cannot be interpreted as a 'and these things too' because that's not how it's worded, it's clearly written in the context of 'these things are things we believe have protoculture power systems'. Later material makes it clear that the list is wrong therefor those things no longer belong on the list and to conform to the rule regarding the sensor must be removed.

Note that both world views use the same exact books, and the same exact information to arrive at different conclusions. The reason for this is that, unfortunately the books are unclear, [...]

While this is broadly true, it is not, in fact, the case for this specific point. The text says, unless you rely on the wholly alien grammar that the "SC" view is apparently based upon, that mecha are detectable IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy sources. Their usage of protoculture energy (which comes only from protoculture power sources) is the sole criterion given in the text of the rule for detection. Mecha which don't use them are, per later books, invisible to the sensor. Rocket science, this ain't. In fact, it's a fairly basic logical construct.

Again your personal interpretation of how this was intended. The 'alien grammar' that is used is the English conjunction 'and' which is generally used to combine two, possibly, unrelated concepts into one smaller sentence.

It's alien grammar because you're treating that 'and' as something it's not actually valid for, deriving a conclusion that's contrary to the actual body of the text.

That is a whole lot of rationalization for why you FEEL the rules should be different, that doesnt change the fact that they are indeed house rules once you enact that change.

I'm afraid you may have either misunderstood my point or failed to read it at all... to sum it up, the rule provides a basic precondition for those mecha being detectable. Specifically, it states that mecha are detectable to the Invid protoculture sensor IF AND ONLY IF they use protoculture energy. The sole source of protoculture energy is the use of protoculture power sources, which the stats say are not present.

The "not detectable" camp here is following the actual rules as written. The rules state that only those mecha which are protoculture-powered are visible to Invid sensors. Those mecha are not, per their stats, protoculture-powered. Therefore, under the text of the rule as it is written, they are not visible to the sensor because they do not use protoculture.

To suggest that those mecha ARE detectable is a house rule because it requires that there be some form of protoculture energy source aboard those mecha that is NOT LISTED ANYWHERE IN THEIR STATS. The alternate explanation of "circuitry" is even worse, since it requires the serial addition of a technology humanity doesn't have to every mecha, and a technology the rules do not say is detectable at that...

Again changing the books is a house rule. Now you can justify that change all you like. But the list, right or wrong, is the Rules As Written. Changing that, even if its a 'correction' of an 'error' is a change to the RAW, and thus, by definition, a House Rule.

Rules as Written 'This Sensor tracks active active protoculture power sources', NOT 'this sensor tracks active protoculture power sources AND these mecha no matter what'. So Rules As Written, what are to be followed, mean you only have the sensor work on valid mecha, and the ONLY valid mecha must explicitly have protoculture power sources which the older mecha don't. So older mecha aren't on the list. Rules abided by.

[Nightmask]

Metal Detectors can be triggered by anything that generates a strong enough electromagnetic field, not just metal.

Which would still require an explicit note regarding the non-metal knife in question was able to set off the sensor, just being a knife isn't enough and metal knives are what you can expect to set it off. When knives are on the list the assumption is metal knives not all knives, an individual non-metal knife that could set it off would need explicit text saying 'while non-metallic this knife can set off metal detectors'.

[Jefffar]

Metal Detectors can be triggered by anything that generates a strong enough electromagnetic field, not just metal.

Which would still require an explicit note regarding the non-metal knife in question was able to set off the sensor, just being a knife isn't enough and metal knives are what you can expect to set it off. When knives are on the list the assumption is metal knives not all knives, an individual non-metal knife that could set it off would need explicit text saying 'while non-metallic this knife can set off metal detectors'.

And we are explicitly told that the PTS works on UEDF and ASC mecha.

[Seto Kaiba]

I know that's what you WANT it to say. But the book just says that they can be targeted. Its a separate clause from the following section about ALSO targeting things that are protoculture powered.

I know a consistent process is supposed to be a desirable thing in the business world, but I find little merit in your process consistently having no connection to objective reality. Have you not read this book? Seriously. The very first sentence there indicates that those sensors aren't locking onto those mecha specifically, but ANYTHING that is using ("powered by") or emitting ("generating") protoculture energy. It then goes on to list the mecha as a collection of examples of those craft which use protoculture energy systems.

If they're using protoculture energy, then by definition they are protoculture powered.

Only a torturous abuse of grammar fit to make the most optimistic English professor weep could get around that one.

Again, only if you choose to interpret this this way. Once again, reading the whole post would probably help.

Reading more than that one sentence would probably help you and the other people who're trying to posit that those mecha are detectable understand the error of your argument, but that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

Again that is only if you choose to read the PTS sensor as 1) only targeting things with protoculture as their primary power and 2) ignore the rest of the comment here about an unidentified subsystem that keeps them on the list

For one, that's grossly inconsistent with how the Palladium game system actually works. For two, it's inconsistent with a literal reading of the text of the rules.

No point 1 is different because it IS different. the SC camp views the word "and" as an important separator making the PTS target two different things, protocultured powered items AND the list.

Read the bloody book.

"The protoculture targeting system locks onto any target that is actively using and emitting protoculture energy. This would apply to the Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, Veritech Fighters, [...]"

In order to be using and emitting protoculture energy, the mecha MUST contain protoculture energy generation systems such as protoculture-driven engines, furnaces, reactors, cells, or other generator technology. That's per the rules on the preceding pages. If they're using protoculture energy they're powered by protoculture. No protoculture systems are present among their stats, so inserting some would have to be a house rule... one inconsistent with Harmony Gold's official stance that those mecha DO NOT USE PROTOCULTURE, PERIOD.

The M/SC camp views this as a pointless distinction. I would humbly suggest that THE MAIN POINT OF CONTENTION IS PROBABLY IMPORTANT.

Because this is, thanks to the preceding sentence, a statement of "A and A". It literally says (in short) "targets that are using protoculture power and protoculture-powered technology". The difference is between ice and frozen water.

Again changing the books is a house rule.

Which is exactly what the crowd arguing against you is not doing... you're asserting that a protoculture power system MUST EXIST in direct contradiction to the stats, and taht those mecha are detectable DESPITE not having that technology when the rule clearly states the only things detected are those using and emitting protoculture energy (aka "Protoculture powered").

Metal Detectors can be triggered by anything that generates a strong enough electromagnetic field, not just metal.

Plastic doesn't normally do that, hence the example. Fusion doesn't generate protoculture energy, per the rules as written, so it should not be detectable to protoculture sensors... and isn't, per the rules as written.

And we are explicitly told that the PTS works on UEDF and ASC mecha.

No, we're told the PTS works on anything that is using and emitting protoculture energy... in short, anything that is either a protoculture power source or contains same. It asserts that the UEDF and ASC mecha fit into that category when, per their individual and later-printed rules, they do not.

You guys keep ignoring the WHY that we're explicitly given, which is also conveniently WHY the rule doesn't apply to those mecha per their official stats.

[Jefffar]

But where does it specify being powered by protoculture is necessary to the use and emission of protoculture energy? My car is powered by a gasoline engine, but it uses and emits electromagnetic energy so it is possible for a device to be powered by one type of energy but use and emit others.

[Seto Kaiba]

But where does it specify being powered by protoculture is necessary to the use and emission of protoculture energy?

Literally the only source of protoculture energy that is EVER mentioned in any of the books is protoculture engines, furnaces, reactors, generators, cells, and other power supplies. To be using protoculture energy, the energy must be coming from somewhere... and we know that protoculture energy comes from the expenditure of protoculture fuel, because the RPG tells us so on the previous pages.

In fact, it's entirely consistent across all of the books that the Invid only detect devices that are actively generating protoculture energy.

My car is powered by a gasoline engine, but it uses and emits electromagnetic energy so it is possible for a device to be powered by one type of energy but use and emit others.

That's a false parallel and you know it... because the electrical systems are driven off of a separate power system from the actual engine. The 12V battery is replenished off of the alternator, but is effectively a separate power source (in much the same way as the beam rifle capacitor on the Spartas is a separate power source that recharges off of the reactor aboard the tank). What we're talking about here is more akin to a battery-electric vehicle, which uses electromagnetic energy for motive power AND sub-system energy...

If the power system is not a protoculture energy system, then it is not detectable under the rules as written... and no protoculture energy systems, backup or otherwise, are mentioned anywhere in the rules for the UEDF or ASC mecha.

[Jefffar]

So no, there isn't a direct quote telling us that only a protoculture powered device can use or emit protoculture energy. But we do have a direct quote indicating ASC and UEDF mecha can be tracked by the PTS.

The alternator merely converts some of the engine's output into a a different form. The battery stores that energy which is then used by the electrical devices in the car. It doesn't change that the car is powered by the efforts of the gasoline engine. Also, I don't see an alternator or battery in a lot of the descriptions for conventional fuel vehicles in the game. Does that mean that it doesn't exist for them and they somehow use raw engine energy to power their electronics?

Most aircraft have an air intake to provide power to electrical or hydraulic systems in either normal or emergency operations, yet that isn't mentioned in any of the aircraft in the books to my knowledge. What system are they using to power their electronic and hydraulic systems then? What do they do if they have a primary engine failure and need to main control to make an emergency landing?

These systems are not being described in the book for conventional vehicles, yet they can be assumed to exist. What makes it any different for the mecha?

[Seto Kaiba]

So no, there isn't a direct quote telling us that only a protoculture powered device can use or emit protoculture energy. But we do have a direct quote indicating ASC and UEDF mecha can be tracked by the PTS.

No, we don't. Again, read the bloody book. It says that those mecha are detectable ONLY because they use and emit protoculture energy, something which only protoculture-powered technology does per the definitions in the book.

Also, I don't see an alternator or battery in a lot of the descriptions for conventional fuel vehicles in the game. Does that mean that it doesn't exist for them and they somehow use raw engine energy to power their electronics?

An alternator and battery are considered to be fundamental components of a combustion engine... to the point that they don't bear mentioning because the are ubiquitous and the average guy on the street KNOWS they're present.

The same cannot be said for sub-power systems on mecha and other exotic vehicles, since those use less conventional technologies. If there were a protoculture sub-system which is providing power to the mecha, it would be listed because it would require a separate source of fuel from the main power system... such as the fusion backup on the Alpha.

These systems are not being described in the book for conventional vehicles, yet they can be assumed to exist. What makes it any different for the mecha?

What makes it different? The mecha aren't using conventional power systems. That a car with an internal combustion engine uses a battery to drive its starter and an alternator to keep the battery topped up is common knowledge. The same goes for the the secondary sub-power systems on conventional aircraft. They don't require a second, separate fuel source and are an integrated component of the main system even though they function effectively as a separate, secondary power system. The secondary energy generation is effectively a consequence of running the primary power system... not a separately fueled or entirely separate secondary power system.

Using one power system that uses protoculture and one that doesn't requires two separate fuel supplies... which is something that is consistently listed, yet not present on any of the UEDF or ASC mecha.

[Jefffar]

Who says that the system emitting and using protoculture energy needs frequent refueling? It could be like doing an oil change, some kind of periodic maintenance (and also not mentioned in the context of conventionally fueled vehicles in the books). Or it could be like the electrical system of a car, powered by the engine but operating with a different type of energy.

A diesel doesn't need an alternator or battery to run. Are we to assume that none of the diesel powered vehicles in the Robotech books have batteries and alternators then as they aren't mentioned?

The fact that something on board the Valkyrie and the Spartas are able to trip the PTS is covered by mentioning it in the PTS, no need to mention it again in the mecha specifically.

Indeed, the descriptions of the workings of those mecha are deliberately vague. How does a fusion turbine produce thrust in an atmosphere and in space? Do Tomahawks run power straight off the engine or is there some sort of capacitor assembly to smooth out power surges?

[Cybermancer]

Alright, I've got 20 years as a mechanic and I just can't let this go.

1. All power in a vehicle comes from the fuel source. The batteries store electrical power that has been converted by the alternator from mechanical power that is converted from chemical power by the engine. The batteries are only used to crank the engine at start up. Otherwise they are storing power that is provided by the fuel source.

2. Batteries and alternators are not a sub-power system. They receive power from the engine as it burns fuel. The alternator has no ability to produce power on its own and the batteries require the engine power to charge.

3. The batteries and alternators are not taught as part of the engine system but as the separate electrical system. I know this because I currently teach automotive mechanics. They are not integral to the engine and are not even required to run the engine. THEY ARE NOT FUNDAMENTAL PARTS OF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE! Pistons, camshafts, crankshaft and blocks are all fundamental parts of an internal combustion engine. Batteries and alternators are not.

4. Diesel engines can be run without electrical power at all if they have a fuel pump that is mechanically driven by the engine. In the old days these engines were started by hand crank. Today such engines can be pull started to get the compression going.

5. In electric vehicles, the power comes from batteries which usually powers motors at the wheels. There is no need for energy sub systems.

6. Only in hybrid vehicles is there enough power in batteries to actually run the vehicle. Only in hybrid vehicles can it be said that there is a power sub-system.

7. Neither electric nor hybrid vehicles are what anyone could consider ubiquitous and certainly the average guy wouldn't know much about them since most average guys aren't as knowledgeable about their internal combustion driven cars as they'd like to think, much less the more exotic models.

[Seto Kaiba]

Who says that the system emitting and using protoculture energy needs frequent refueling? It could be like doing an oil change, periodic maintenance (and also not mentioned in the context of conventionally fueled vehicles in the books).

If it's a separately-fueled exotic power source, it would be listed under the conventions the books use... even if its endurance was, say, a matter of months. For all their occasionally-schizophrenic inconsistency, the books are very good about listing when something uses a protoculture power source.

A diesel doesn't need an alternator or battery to run. Are we to assume that none of the diesel powered vehicles in the Robotech books have batteries and alternators then as they aren't mentioned?

That's not entirely true either... a diesel engine doesn't use the 12V battery to drive a spark plug to initiate combustion, but it does use that subsystem for other purposes.

The fact that something on board the Valkyrie and the Spartas are able to trip the PTS is covered by mentioning it in the PTS, no need to mention it again in the mecha specifically.

Again, that's not how the system works. The statement in the core book says that those mecha are detectable specifically because they're using and emitting some amount of protoculture energy... which means, under the given definitions, there is some protoculture power system present to generate it. HOWEVER, no such system is ever mentioned in the stats (even though the established convention is that secondary power systems which use separate fuel supplies are listed). Adding such a system would be a house rule.

Indeed, the descriptions of the workings of those mecha are deliberately vague. How does a fusion turbine produce thrust in an atmosphere and in space? Do Tomahawks run power straight off the engine or is there some sort of capacitor assembly to smooth out power surges?

A concrete explanation of HOW the system achieves its effect is not, strictly speaking, the least bit necessary... so long as the RPG rules say the fusion reactor powers the engine, it powers the engine. If a mecha or device uses protoculture, the stats list that it uses some form of protoculture power source and almost invariably mention that the use of same does make the mecha detectable. No such system is present in the stats for the UEDF or ASC mecha. The only description necessary is that the system uses fuel X to achieve the listed effect.

[Cybermancer]

A diesel doesn't need an alternator or battery to run. Are we to assume that none of the diesel powered vehicles in the Robotech books have batteries and alternators then as they aren't mentioned?

That's not entirely true either... a diesel engine doesn't use the 12V battery to drive a spark plug to initiate combustion, but it does use that subsystem for other purposes.

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

The vehicle may have sub-systems that use electrical power and either a generator or an alternator is needed to run them (but not batteries). But you can run the engine and make the vehicle move and operate perfectly well without electrical power. Your assertion that they require electrical power is false. They merely generate and make use of it which is a different thing altogether.

[Jefffar]

I have yet to see a quote indicating that using a protoculture power source was the only way to use or emit protoclture energy.

Yet we have from the books:

A list confirming that UEDF mecha are trackable by a system that picks up on the use and emission of protoculture energy.

A lack of subsidiary systems in the descriptions of conventional ground vehicles, conventional aircraft, hover craft and mecha to explain how they work beyond what their primary power supply is. Rarely if ever are mentioned things like alternators, generators, capacitors, RAM air intakes, hydraulics, pneumatics and similar that these vehicles would need to operate.

So the lack of mention of a system using and emitting protculture energy in the descriptions of the ASC and UEDF mecha is not proof that it isn't there. Only when an explicit revision indicating they are not trackable by the PTS comes about will it be official that those mecha can't be tracked by the PTS.

[Seto Kaiba]

Alright, I've got 20 years as a mechanic and I just can't let this go. [...]

That's nice, I'm on the design end of the auto industry myself, specializing in plug-in hybrid and battery-electric vehicles.

1. All power in a vehicle comes from the fuel source. The batteries store electrical power that has been converted by the alternator from mechanical power that is converted from chemical power by the engine. The batteries are only used to crank the engine at start up. Otherwise they are storing power that is provided by the fuel source.

This is not actually true... the 12V battery can be recharged by other means than just the alternator (such as an external charger), and does in fact provide electrical power to many onboard systems including keep-alives for volatile memory storing calibration data, interior lighting, and various other electrically-driven systems. Parasitic loads on the 12V battery make up one of the main causes of batteries going flat... often it's interior lighting or the headlights being left on. Other onboard electrical hardware is often also driven by current supplied from the 12V battery, such as charge control systems on hybrids. (This is a subject that gives me constant grief on the hybrid Ram project I'm assigned to.)

2. Batteries and alternators are not a sub-power system. They receive power from the engine as it burns fuel. The alternator has no ability to produce power on its own and the batteries require the engine power to charge.

They are a sub-power system because they're a power supply physically and mechanically separate from the engine itself, yet they are not a wholly separate power system because they rely on the main system's output for charge replenishment. It doesn't have to put out enough power to run the entire vehicle... just a selection of systems aboard it that are not powered by the engine's operation itself. If they produced enough power to operate the vehicle without the engine, they would be a primary power system.

3. The batteries and alternators are not taught as part of the engine system but as the separate electrical system. I know this because I currently teach automotive mechanics. They are not integral to the engine and are not even required to run the engine.

Ironically, I've made this same point before...

THEY ARE NOT FUNDAMENTAL PARTS OF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE! Pistons, camshafts, crankshaft and blocks are all fundamental parts of an internal combustion engine. Batteries and alternators are not.

They are intrinsically associated with the operation of the internal combustion engine in the minds of the Joe Average on the street, and while they are not 100% essential to operate a combustion engine they are normally a vital system component. A flat battery will stop the average car from starting in normal operating conditions.

4. Diesel engines can be run without electrical power at all if they have a fuel pump that is mechanically driven by the engine. In the old days these engines were started by hand crank. Today such engines can be pull started to get the compression going.

The engine itself, yes... the rest of the vehicle, not s'much.

5. In electric vehicles, the power comes from batteries which usually powers motors at the wheels. There is no need for energy sub systems.

In a pure BEV, yes... but not a hybrid.

6. Only in hybrid vehicles is there enough power in batteries to actually run the vehicle. Only in hybrid vehicles can it be said that there is a power sub-system.

A PHEV or HEV is essentially possessed of two PRIMARY power systems... one is an internal combustion engine, the other is a high-voltage battery. Many of the control systems that control the latter are sustained by the 12V battery, not the HV battery.

7. Neither electric nor hybrid vehicles are what anyone could consider ubiquitous and certainly the average guy wouldn't know much about them since most average guys aren't as knowledgeable about their internal combustion driven cars as they'd like to think, much less the more exotic models.

Certainly true... but as your average internal combustion or diesel vehicle DOES have a 12V battery and alternator for various purposes, they go without saying. The technology is so common that it's taken for granted.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

We're not talking about just the engine though... we're talking about the whole damn vehicle.

I have yet to see a quote indicating that using a protoculture power source was the only way to use or emit protoclture energy.

So, the sheer fact that there is absolutely zero mention of any way to produce protoculture energy BESIDES a protoculture power source isn't enough for you? Or the sheer fact that a whopping 100% of mentions of what makes a protoculture energy signature vanish is that a protoculture power system is turned off.

Since you're arguing against the evidence, I challenge you to present an explicit statement from the books that protoculture energy is produced some way other than by the usage of protoculture fuel in a power system.

So the lack of mention of a system using and emitting protculture energy in the descriptions of the ASC and UEDF mecha is not proof that it isn't there.

It very much is... because we're explicitly told in later books that if a vehicle is not powered by protoculture that it is invisible to the Invid sensors. There is no listed protoculture power source, therefore there is no protoculture power source. Until you can establish that those mecha contain such a power source, you haven't a leg to stand on.

Only when an explicit revision indicating they are not trackable by the PTS comes about will it be official that those mecha can't be tracked by the PTS.

No, it will not... because the list asserts that those mecha are only detectable because they use protoculture energy... and their stats clearly indicate they do not. (As does Harmony Gold's official stats.)

[Jefffar]

Since you're arguing against the evidence, I challenge you to present an explicit statement from the books that protoculture energy is produced some way other than by the usage of protoculture fuel in a power system.

Gladly.

The list of items that use and emit protoculture energy includes mecha that use fusion power systems. Therefore there must be a way to use and emit protoculture energy in mecha powered by fusion power systems.

[Seto Kaiba]

The list of items that use and emit protoculture energy includes mecha that use fusion power systems. Therefore there must be a way to use and emit protoculture energy in mecha powered by fusion power systems.

That doesn't establish the means of production, only that it claims those mecha use the energy... which all evidence, including Harmony Gold's official canon, points to them not using any form of protoculture energy system. No such system is listed in their stats. You yourself have acknowledged that that is a contradictory part of the books and probably an error...

If you can find an explicit description of a piece of technology that emits protoculture energy and/or uses it without actually containing or consisting of a protoculture power system, you would have a point... but there is no such thing to be found in the books.

[Jefffar]

There doesn't need to be. We're told the mecha uses and emits protoculture energy. The omission of the details on how it does is nor more consequential in in their description than the omission of all the subsytems in a protoculture fired rotary engine vehicle or a diesel engine powered vehicle in those descriptions.

[Seto Kaiba]

There doesn't need to be. We're told the mecha uses and emits protoculture energy. The omission of the details on how it does is nor more consequential in in their description than the omission of all the subsytems in a protoculture fired rotary engine vehicle or a diesel engine powered vehicle.

It's a contradictory statement between two separate books... the core book claims that the mecha uses protoculture energy which, per the descriptions in the book, MUST come from a protoculture engine, furnace, generator, reactor, cell, etc., and the rules for same don't list anything of the kind. You yourself have admitted to this contradiction previously.

[Jefffar]

There doesn't need to be. We're told the mecha uses and emits protoculture energy. The omission of the details on how it does is nor more consequential in in their description than the omission of all the subsytems in a protoculture fired rotary engine vehicle or a diesel engine powered vehicle.

It's a contradictory statement between two separate books... the core book claims that the mecha uses protoculture energy which, per the descriptions in the book, MUST come from a protoculture engine, furnace, generator, reactor, cell, etc., and the rules for same don't list anything of the kind. You yourself have admitted to this contradiction previously.

I agree it seems contradictory, but it's not necessarily a contradiction as I have yet to find anything explicitly saying that the ASC and UEDF mecha cannot be tracked PTS. Only arguments that they should not be tracked.

Please come up with the quote that says that a vehicle using or emitting protoculture energy must have a protoculture engine, furnace, generator, reactor, cell or etc. So far I haven't seen one.

Please come up with a quote that indicates that the ASC and UEDF mecha do not use or emit protoculture energy. So far I haven't seen one.

Until one of those two surfaces, I'll agree that the mecha in question probably shouldn't be on the list, but they still are on the list and can be tracked.

[Cybermancer]

This is not actually true... the 12V battery can be recharged by other means than just the alternator (such as an external charger), and does in fact provide electrical power to many onboard systems including keep-alives for volatile memory storing calibration data, interior lighting, and various other electrically-driven systems. Parasitic loads on the 12V battery make up one of the main causes of batteries going flat... often it's interior lighting or the headlights being left on. Other onboard electrical hardware is often also driven by current supplied from the 12V battery, such as charge control systems on hybrids. (This is a subject that gives me constant grief on the hybrid Ram project I'm assigned to.)

It actually is true. Just because it can be recharged by other means, doesn't mean that's how it's designed or how it normally operates. It's designed and intended to be recharged by the alternator (which is run by the engine). If it's being recharged by other means, that means something is wrong. But nice try. Batteries only run electrical systems when the engine is off. Otherwise, they're run by the alternator. If you try running a car on just a battery, you won't go far at all. But you can run it with an alternator. Those parasitic drains become a problem when the engine is off.

They are a sub-power system because they're a power supply physically and mechanically separate from the engine itself, yet they are not a wholly separate power system because they rely on the main system's output for charge replenishment. It doesn't have to put out enough power to run the entire vehicle... just a selection of systems aboard it that are not powered by the engine's operation itself.

You don't get to say they're fundamental parts of the engine and separate mechanically and physically at the same time. Again, nice try. The alternator runs off the engine as do the batteries. They get their power from the fuel. They are run by the engine in the same way the AC compressor is, the power steering is and so on. But these are not fundamental parts of the engine. And neither is the electrical system. But the electrical system gets its power from the engine. And you know that.

They are intrinsically associated with the operation of the internal combustion engine in the minds of the Joe Average on the street, and while they are not 100% essential to operate a combustion engine they are normally a vital system component. A flat battery will stop the average car from starting in normal operating conditions.

Still not a fundamental part of the engine though. And that's right, they're a vital system component. The electrical system, separate from the engine.

The engine itself, yes... the rest of the vehicle, not s'much.

Steering works. Brakes work. Vehicle runs, stops and steers. The other stuff is great to have, but not essential. We are talking about what you claimed were fundamental and essential.

In a pure BEV, yes... but not a hybrid.

Wasn't talking about hybrids there so that's not relevant.

A PHEV or HEV is essentially possessed of two PRIMARY power systems... one is an internal combustion engine, the other is a high-voltage battery. Many of the control systems that control the latter are sustained by the 12V battery, not the HV battery.

I was about to say I disagree because I was thinking of specific types of hybrids. But some hybrids can draw power from electrical sources while in motion so I have to agree that some hybrids do in fact have two primary power sources. But in others where the ICE engine is providing the bulk of the power (greater than 50%), then I would call the engine primary and the electric sub.

[Cybermancer]

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

We're not talking about just the engine though... we're talking about the whole damn vehicle.

You left out the part where I address the operation of the rest of the vehicle. It can start, run, steer and stop all without electrical power. Those are the essential fundamentals. The rest is extra.

[Seto Kaiba]

Please come up with a quote that indicates that the ASC and UEDF mecha do not use or emit protoculture energy. So far I haven't seen one.

Refer ye to the oft-mentioned statement from the New Generation book that vehicles that're not powered by protoculture are invisible to Invid protoculture sensors.

[Jefffar]

Please come up with a quote that indicates that the ASC and UEDF mecha do not use or emit protoculture energy. So far I haven't seen one.

Refer ye to the oft-mentioned statement from the New Generation book that vehicles that're not powered by protoculture are invisible to Invid protoculture sensors.

IIRC, we're talking about the Protoculture Targeting System, not Protoculture Sensors, those are different items.
Additionally, nowhere was the contention that said vehicle was actually trackable by the PTS in the first place, so declaring it doesn't remove itself or anything else from that list.

[Nightmask]

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

We're not talking about just the engine though... we're talking about the whole damn vehicle.

You left out the part where I address the operation of the rest of the vehicle. It can start, run, steer and stop all without electrical power. Those are the essential fundamentals. The rest is extra.

And essentially irrelevant, since comparison-wise the protoculture sensor detects the actual item that generates the electrical power of the vehicle, it's not detecting the electricity running through the vehicle. So it's comparison item would be the diesel fuel NOT the rest of the vehicle or the electrical systems that the engine drives the generator for, which is why the decoy device required protoculture to function. If your sensor only detects diesel and the list of vehicles includes a gasoline-engine then obviously the gasoline-vehicle can't be detected and is on the list wrongly, no phantom unlisted diesel engines that are also running but never talked about when they'd have to be since they'd require refueling at some point if they existed.

Which is why there can't be any valid claims given the information that exists that those non-protoculture mecha have protoculture anyway, if they did we'd have to be informed about them because they'd require periodic refueling. Any batteries would be charged on the electricity generated by the non-protoculture system and certainly wouldn't generate protoculture signals.

[Seto Kaiba]

IIRC, we're talking about the Protoculture Targeting System, not Protoculture Sensors, those are different items.

They use the same terminology, among other things... and not coincidentally all of them are fairly definite on the fact that the system only detects the active generation of protoculture energy by protoculture-powered technology and stand-alone generator systems. Under the terms given in the books, to use or emit protoculture energy fundamentally means there is a protoculture energy source present and that the device is by definition "protoculture powered".

Additionally, nowhere was the contention that said vehicle was actually trackable by the PTS in the first place, so declaring it doesn't remove itself or anything else from that list.

The protoculture sensor rule specifically links "uses protoculture" to "powered by protoculture" with respect to human military hardware, and establishes that without an active protoculture power source there are no emissions to detect. If there are no emissions to detect, then no emissions are there to detect. Rocket science this ain't. The rules clearly, repeatedly, and emphatically indicate that what produces protoculture energy emissions is the active usage of protoculture to produce energy... something the UEDF and ASC mecha do not do.

Unless the rules of grammar have changed into something Strunk and White would find to be wholly alien, the rule straight-up states that the PTS tracks only technology which uses and emits protoculture energy (protoculture power systems and technology that uses same). In the official stats for those vehicles, no such protoculture power system is in evidence, and vehicles that have more than one type of independent power system (say, a backup fusion generator) always list the second system in their stats.

[Jefffar]

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

We're not talking about just the engine though... we're talking about the whole damn vehicle.

You left out the part where I address the operation of the rest of the vehicle. It can start, run, steer and stop all without electrical power. Those are the essential fundamentals. The rest is extra.

And essentially irrelevant, since comparison-wise the protoculture sensor detects the actual item that generates the electrical power of the vehicle, it's not detecting the electricity running through the vehicle. So it's comparison item would be the diesel fuel NOT the rest of the vehicle or the electrical systems that the engine drives the generator for, which is why the decoy device required protoculture to function. If your sensor only detects diesel and the list of vehicles includes a gasoline-engine then obviously the gasoline-vehicle can't be detected and is on the list wrongly, no phantom unlisted diesel engines that are also running but never talked about when they'd have to be since they'd require refueling at some point if they existed.

Which is why there can't be any valid claims given the information that exists that those non-protoculture mecha have protoculture anyway, if they did we'd have to be informed about them because they'd require periodic refueling. Any batteries would be charged on the electricity generated by the non-protoculture system and certainly wouldn't generate protoculture signals.

However the Protoculture Targeting System tracks the use and emission of potoculture energy, not the motor that powers the vehicle.

[Jefffar]

IIRC, we're talking about the Protoculture Targeting System, not Protoculture Sensors, those are different items.

They use the same terminology, among other things... and not coincidentally all of them are fairly definite on the fact that the system only detects the active generation of protoculture energy by protoculture-powered technology and stand-alone generator systems. Under the terms given in the books, to use or emit protoculture energy fundamentally means there is a protoculture energy source present and that the device is by definition "protoculture powered".

Additionally, nowhere was the contention that said vehicle was actually trackable by the PTS in the first place, so declaring it doesn't remove itself or anything else from that list.

The protoculture sensor rule specifically links "uses protoculture" to "powered by protoculture" with respect to human military hardware, and establishes that without an active protoculture power source there are no emissions to detect. If there are no emissions to detect, then no emissions are there to detect. Rocket science this ain't. The rules clearly, repeatedly, and emphatically indicate that what produces protoculture energy emissions is the active usage of protoculture to produce energy... something the UEDF and ASC mecha do not do.

I keep hearing that the protoculture sensor says this, but I have yet to see it proven. Please provide the quote that shows that n entire mecha must be protoculure powered to use and emit protoculture energy rather than using and emitting the energy as a part of a subsytem or device.

[Seto Kaiba]

However the Protoculture Targeting System tracks the use and emission of potoculture energy, not the motor that powers the vehicle.

The text clearly indicates that "use and emission of protoculture energy" is essentially just a wordier way of saying "protoculture-powered"... so it's all one and the same.

[Cybermancer]

Actually, it is entirely true. Diesel engines do not require electrical power to run. Full stop.

We're not talking about just the engine though... we're talking about the whole damn vehicle.

You left out the part where I address the operation of the rest of the vehicle. It can start, run, steer and stop all without electrical power. Those are the essential fundamentals. The rest is extra.

And essentially irrelevant, since comparison-wise the protoculture sensor detects the actual item that generates the electrical power of the vehicle, it's not detecting the electricity running through the vehicle. So it's comparison item would be the diesel fuel NOT the rest of the vehicle or the electrical systems that the engine drives the generator for, which is why the decoy device required protoculture to function. If your sensor only detects diesel and the list of vehicles includes a gasoline-engine then obviously the gasoline-vehicle can't be detected and is on the list wrongly, no phantom unlisted diesel engines that are also running but never talked about when they'd have to be since they'd require refueling at some point if they existed.

Which is why there can't be any valid claims given the information that exists that those non-protoculture mecha have protoculture anyway, if they did we'd have to be informed about them because they'd require periodic refueling. Any batteries would be charged on the electricity generated by the non-protoculture system and certainly wouldn't generate protoculture signals.

All of this has nothing to do with anything I've said. I'm not engaged in that particular argument. I have no pony in that race and I'm not entering one now.

[jaymz]

Guys, honestly, this argument has gone ins so many circles now I surprised no-one has gotten dizzy yet.

Truth be told, depending on interpretation of the written words, BOTH sides are right thanks to the loveliness of Palladium's unfortunately below par vetting/editing process when it comes to making everything consistent between books.

[Cybermancer]

Guys, honestly, this argument has gone ins so many circles now I surprised no-one has gotten dizzy yet.

Truth be told, depending on interpretation of the written words, BOTH sides are right thanks to the loveliness of Palladium's unfortunately below par vetting/editing process when it comes to making everything consistent between books.

And this is why I won't put a pony in the race.

[eliakon]

However the Protoculture Targeting System tracks the use and emission of potoculture energy, not the motor that powers the vehicle.

The text clearly indicates that "use and emission of protoculture energy" is essentially just a wordier way of saying "protoculture-powered"... so it's all one and the same.

That is your interpretation of the text yes. But as Jefffar has said, that is not what it actually SAYS.

[Tiree]

The following two segments come from TSC Manga Edition 1st Printing:

3. Protoculture Sensor: This is a powerful sensor that can detect the distinct energy signature of Protoculture when it is actively being used/expended. The sensors detect all sources of Protoculture and can target and track as many as 142 targets within range. The sensor picks up the presence of active Protoculture energy even before the target is in visual range, but only provides the Invid a general sense of location, direction of movement and approximate speed of travel from the energy source, not its exact location. Visual confirmation is necessary for targeting and combat.

5. Protoculture Targeting System: The protoculture targeting system locks onto the target that is actively using and emitting Protoculture energy. This would apply to Alpha, Beta, Cyclone, Veritech Fighters, old Destroids, mecha of the Southern Cross, and any Protoculture powered spacecraft, vehicle, generator, weapon or device.

From what I can tell, PTS is looking at "Energy Sources" and "Energy Signatures"

Again - I subscribe to 'Protoculture Chips' to figure this out. But that's just me...

[Seto Kaiba]

I keep hearing that the protoculture sensor says this, but I have yet to see it proven. Please provide the quote that shows that n entire mecha must be protoculure powered to use and emit protoculture energy rather than using and emitting the energy as a part of a subsytem or device.

Here's the thing... you're asking for something I've never stated. I've said that in order for a piece of technology to be detectable by the protoculture sensors/targeting systems/etc. the rules state it must be either protoculture-powered or a standalone protoculture power source itself. It isn't limited to just main power, if the mecha is carrying active devices that use the stuff as a power source (like, say, a protoculture e-mag beam rifle) then that device is going to be detectable on the craft even if the craft itself is not. Many quotes have already been provided as to this in my previous posts.

Also, WRT your previous batch of word salad regarding the meaning of "protoculture sensor", you'd probably want to recant that unless you're also prepared to assert that the Shadow Fighter is not invisible to those systems either, because its rules only state "Protoculture sensors" do not detect it.

That is your interpretation of the text yes. But as Jefffar has said, that is not what it actually SAYS.

I'm afraid Jefffar's argument is no less fallacious than yours, being that it depends principally upon IGNORING large swathes of the material rather than acknowledging what's actually written.

From what I can tell, PTS is looking at "Energy Sources" and "Energy Signatures"

Again - I subscribe to 'Protoculture Chips' to figure this out. But that's just me...

"Protoculture chips" are a technology only the Invid have in the RPG, and there's nothing in their description that indicates that the chips produce a detectable energy signal when in operation or that they are protoculture powered themselves... so that's clearly not it.

[Jefffar]

So we have agreement that the Protoculture energy that makes a mecha detectable need not be its primary power supply.

Great.

Further we don't see things like batteries, alternators, generators, RAM intakes, hydraulics, pneumatics or dozens of other specific subsystems itemized for even high tech vehicles in the books and have no specific reason to beleive they don't exist.

So combining the two statements it is not unreasonable for the ASC and UEDF mecha to have an unlisted subsystem that utilizes/emits Protoculture energy. This provides an in game rationale for the fact that those mecha are specifically tracked by the PTS.

So, to loop back to the topic, since we diverged enough, there are some benefits to exchanging a SLMH system for a Protoculture system, especially for those operating in a space based environment, namely making it very easy to refuel. However, those advantages are off set by the superior endurance of the Protoculture System. There may also be some storage issues for the SLMH, as P Cells are apparently stable enough for sale in commercial retailers while SLMH is thus far only seen at military installations.

[Seto Kaiba]

Further we don't see things like batteries, alternators, generators, RAM intakes, hydraulics, pneumatics or dozens of other specific subsystems itemized for even high tech vehicles in the books and have no specific reason to beleive they don't exist.

Only when those systems are not entirely separate and distinct from the vehicle's own main power system... a separate power system of the sort you're talking about is invariably listed among the stats. Sub-systems which are dependent upon the output of another system in the vehicle are not listed (e.g. a car's 12V battery, or the intake power systems from a jet) because they are, in whole or in part, components of the primary power system.

So combining the two statements it is not unreasonable for the ASC and UEDF mecha to have an unlisted subsystem that utilizes/emits Protoculture energy.

Oh, it's unreasonable all right... because that would be an entirely separate power system from the main system (unless the main system is also protoculture-powered). As such, its fuel endurance and nature would be listed the way the fusion backup on the Alpha is, and special notation would be made regarding refueling. The stats do not list any such system, therefore given the known conventions of the Palladium RPG system and Harmony Gold, the only logical and sensible conclusion is that no such system is present.

So, to loop back to the topic, since we diverged enough, there are some benefits to exchanging a SLMH system for a Protoculture system, especially for those operating in a space based environment, namely making it very easy to refuel.

"The universe is your gas station".

However, those advantages are off set by the superior endurance of the Protoculture System.

Though, apparently, the installation of a protoculture system compromises the space which the fighter has available for propellant in space flight...

There may also be some storage issues for the SLMH, as P Cells are apparently stable enough for sale in commercial retailers while SLMH is thus far only seen at military installations.

The New Generation book mentions hydrogen fueling stations are present in cities, so that may not necessarily be the case...

[Seto Kaiba]

After reading through this entire thread, it seems like you are arguing over an HG induced plot-hole. There is no logical answer.

Well, yes and no... we are absolutely arguing over a Harmony Gold-induced plot hole, but the question is one of whether the rule that asserts that the UEDF and ASC mecha are detected by the myriad Invid sensor systems even though subsequent books invalidated the core book assumption that they were still protoculture-powered.

You either go with what was said first and ignore the later material, or you go with what is said later and ignore what was said first. Until an official errata comes out to clear this mess up: one is just as valid as the other because you are trying to shoe-horn logic into a contradiction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the established precedent to accept the later publication's version as correct if there is a contradiction between two books in the same series.

[jaymz]

That is what I have always thought the standard protocol is.