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Protoculture wrote:OK, getting back to topic at hand. Well, since I'm not getting UEEF Marines sourcebook anytime soon (unlikely due to geographical factor and the fact that Palladium do not market its product in Asia), could anybody listed the Invid warmachines (this include the Inorganics) that appeared in the book?

From scant resources, I was told that new Regent Invid's faction are mostly designs taken from the Imai Files lock stock and barrel with barely few edits, unlike UEEF mechas that were drastically redesigned from Imai Files.

Thanks.

That's partially correct. In fact, nearly all mecha designs in the Marines Sourcebook come from one of two sources: Robotech Art 3: the Sentinels and the Imai files. Of the former, UEEF stuff (the Destroids and Zentreadi Battlepods) were heavily modified with Alpha- or sometimes Conder-style parts, while the Invid stuff (most of the Inorganics) were mostly untouched. Of the latter, most designs were completely untouched, though one or two of the UEEF mecha underwent some changes.

UEEF Mecha, Vehicles, and Gear
Bioroid Interceptor (source: Shadow Chronicles)
Condor (source: Shadow Chronicles)
Conbat (source: Shadow Chronicles)
I suspect these were included to highlight how prominent they were in the book's timeframe.

CVR-1 (source: Imai Files, p.78)
VR-011 Rifleman (source: Imai Files, p.79)
VR-015 Spider (source: Imai Files, p.16)
VR-017 Crusader (source: Imai Files, p.87)
CBA-01 Walker (source: Imai Files, p.90)

CVR-2 (source: Imai Files)
VR-021 Nova (source: Imai Files, p.88)
VR-024 Comet (source: Imai Files, p.89)
I'm pretty sure that the Cycle modes were new art derived from the Power Armor mode artwork.)

Tomahawk Mk.X (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)
Defender Mk.XIV (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)
Phalanx Mk.XV (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)
Spartan Mk.VI (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)
Monster Mk.VII (source: original art)
Valiant Mk.II (source: Imai Files, p.9; slightly modified)

Golem Mk.I (source: Imai Files, p.74; modified)

Zentreadi Infantry Battlepod (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)
Zentreadi Officer's Battlepod (source: Sentinels Art; heavily modified)

Daniel (source: Imai Files, p.70)
Archon (source: TBD)
Titan (source: Sentinels Art)

Invid
Cougar (source: Sentinels Art)
Crann (source: Sentinels Art)
Odeon (source: Sentinels Art)
Scrim (source: Sentinels Art)
Garn (source: Imai Files, p.34)

Invid Assault Trooper (source: Imai Files, p.31)
Invid Fury (source: Imai Files, p.30)
Invid Ogre (source: Imai Files, p.76)
Invid Ranger (source: Imai Files, p.64)

Finally got mine... like UEEF finally getting a book. Should have been Sentinels. That being said hated most of the art. Made most of the battleoids look like Frankenmech. I understand the concept of modular design to make repairs easier however the different sizes make the "same" head as x mecha thing not work at all and making the same size style head a different size isn't any better than designing an entirely new head. I didn't like the artistsinterpretation of any of the battleoids. How does putting an anchor in the jet intake of an alpha servo (which would be far more expensive than a comparable battleoid's servo make a better radar? Why does the Golems head look like a CVR-3 helmet? Doing up the golden as an AI cyclone walker would have made better sense for the helmet and name.

Even the race art was off. Where was the Karbaranite's horns? Just sticking out of his ears? They were also supposed to look cuter in the armor than out with their teeth always bared IIRC and less literally bearlike and where is my pegasus? Could have sworn the spherians shaped themselves into smooth forms so they don't look like their surroundings and only the young looked jagged.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Finally got mine... like UEEF finally getting a book. Should have been Sentinels.

It is basically a rebooted RT II Sentinels 2.0.

That being said hated most of the art. Made most of the battleoids look like Frankenmech. I understand the concept of modular design to make repairs easier however the different sizes make the "same" head as x mecha thing not work at all and making the same size style head a different size isn't any better than designing an entirely new head.

Chuck's art grew on me. Its all a matter of preference as I am a huge fan of the 3rd arc of Robotech (New Gen aka Mospeada). Its just that a total disregard to the original 2nd Gen Sentinels' Destroids series that irked me off. The new "Mospeada"-ized Destroids should've been slated as a replacement for the Sentinels' Destroids by early 2040s instead.

I didn't like the artistsinterpretation of any of the battleoids. How does putting an anchor in the jet intake of an alpha servo (which would be far more expensive than a comparable battleoid's servo make a better radar? Why does the Golems head look like a CVR-3 helmet? Doing up the golden as an AI cyclone walker would have made better sense for the helmet and name.

Well I have problems with Golem too. The original Imai Files' design is better IMHO.

Even the race art was off. Where was the Karbaranite's horns? Just sticking out of his ears? They were also supposed to look cuter in the armor than out with their teeth always bared IIRC and less literally bearlike and where is my pegasus?

I think you missed the memo by atleast a decade. Tommy Yune has re-designed the Karbarran as more of a follow-up of alien grizzlies by discarding the mushroom-horns. The new art for L'ron in Robotech: Prelude to The Shadow Chronicles comic series depicted him as an upright bear-like alien much like Earth's grizzlies.

Could have sworn the spherians shaped themselves into smooth forms so they don't look like their surroundings and only the young looked jagged.

The are atleast two designs of Spherians in the Sentinels comics by Waltrips which are the smooth forms (the familiar design from Art of Robotech 3) and also a more sharply geomatrical designs.

However, in UEEF Marines Sourcebook, the more jagged design for Spherian are introduced. Fairly speaking, I like this design. It means, a more diverse Spherian societies. The smooth and geomatrical designs are the norms / urbanised Spherians, while the jagged ones are likely either off-world Spherians living in deepspace colonies / mining satellites deprived of their mineral-rich crystals.

or instead of it being based on the degree of urbanization, have it be part of cultural based body-modification traditions.. some cultures go pure rugged 'raw' crystals, others go for geometric shaped, still others for polished curves, and whatever else you can think of. like the difference between regional clothing styles on earth. China has very different traditional styles from the middle east which is very different from those of europe, etc. after all, we are talking about a whole planet here. even if they had worked out a world government, you would inevitably have had separate cultures and nations in their past.. and even after the nations unify, the cultures usually stay around as separate things for a long time.


and even in the old stuff for sentinels, the karbarran 'horns' were often ignored in favor of oversized ears (to the point some of the comics had them looking like giant teddy bears.) and there is some conflicting stuff suggestign the 'horns' were not part of them but rather part of whatever they were wearing.
i prefer the new comics depiction of them just being generally ursine. i do wish that something could have been done to get rid of the 'battle bikini" of the Praxians, but i suspect that would have been a much harder battle.. and frankly, i can easily just find some decent full plate armor images that will suffice. (yes we saw a glimpse of a 'battle-bikini' under the robes of the Praxian representative to the UEEF.. but since she wasn't in combat, it can easily be assumed to be her idea of formal wear, perhaps chosen to compliment the robe.)

For me, I rewrote the spherians so the smooth form is non-combat, and then the spherian can “armor up” and there bodies transform into the more jagged version, realigning their crystal structure to be tougher, but with some minor trade offs. Similar to how heavier combat armor has penalties for human wearers.

glitterboy2098 wrote:or instead of it being based on the degree of urbanization, have it be part of cultural based body-modification traditions.. some cultures go pure rugged 'raw' crystals, others go for geometric shaped, still others for polished curves, and whatever else you can think of. like the difference between regional clothing styles on earth. China has very different traditional styles from the middle east which is very different from those of europe, etc. after all, we are talking about a whole planet here. even if they had worked out a world government, you would inevitably have had separate cultures and nations in their past.. and even after the nations unify, the cultures usually stay around as separate things for a long time.

and even in the old stuff for sentinels, the karbarran 'horns' were often ignored in favor of oversized ears (to the point some of the comics had them looking like giant teddy bears.) and there is some conflicting stuff suggestign the 'horns' were not part of them but rather part of whatever they were wearing.
i prefer the new comics depiction of them just being generally ursine. i do wish that something could have been done to get rid of the 'battle bikini" of the Praxians, but i suspect that would have been a much harder battle.. and frankly, i can easily just find some decent full plate armor images that will suffice. (yes we saw a glimpse of a 'battle-bikini' under the robes of the Praxian representative to the UEEF.. but since she wasn't in combat, it can easily be assumed to be her idea of formal wear, perhaps chosen to compliment the robe.)

I would have like the Praxians to have been done in hoplite armor. Maybe that'd be their uparmored suit. Add Skirt, grieves, bracers and full cuirass. Or the superheavy praetorian suit resembling the lorica segmentata of the Roman legions.

Mind fixing your quotes?
And the ueef marines art does depict a hoplite type armor.. The problem is it doesn't look much like real armor due to the plunging neckline and boob-plates

Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

glitterboy2098 wrote:Mind fixing your quotes?
And the ueef marines art does depict a hoplite type armor.. The problem is it doesn't look much like real armor due to the plunging neckline and boob-plates

That work?

I see what you mean and I was still imagining Gnea's swim suits or those in the comics. Not the new one. The new one is considerably more concealing.

It does appear that most fantasy hoplite for females have a plunging neckline rather than full coverage up to the neck.

RobotechMaster wrote:[
However, in UEEF Marines Sourcebook, the more jagged design for Spherian are introduced. Fairly speaking, I like this design. It means, a more diverse Spherian societies. The smooth and geomatrical designs are the norms / urbanised Spherians, while the jagged ones are likely either off-world Spherians living in deepspace colonies / mining satellites deprived of their mineral-rich crystals.

The unshaved/uncleaved look.
Spherian shaving is closer to gem cutting that a simple buzz and wash. Takes some real skill , especially if you're going for the 'sarry beard' or 'starry hairdo' look.

taalismn wrote:

RobotechMaster wrote:[
However, in UEEF Marines Sourcebook, the more jagged design for Spherian are introduced. Fairly speaking, I like this design. It means, a more diverse Spherian societies. The smooth and geomatrical designs are the norms / urbanised Spherians, while the jagged ones are likely either off-world Spherians living in deepspace colonies / mining satellites deprived of their mineral-rich crystals.

The unshaved/uncleaved look.
Spherian shaving is closer to gem cutting that a simple buzz and wash. Takes some real skill , especially if you're going for the 'sarry beard' or 'starry hairdo' look.

Neither shaved nor cleaved as they shaped stone not chiseled it.

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Neither shaved nor cleaved as they shaped stone not chiseled it.

Which puts a new spin on the skill Body Sculpting.

taalismn wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Neither shaved nor cleaved as they shaped stone not chiseled it.

Which puts a new spin on the skill Body Sculpting.

Do spherians parent have to acquire the skill body building to have a child?

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Do spherians parent have to acquire the skill body building to have a child?

"You gave our -son- a PRINCESS CUT?!"

taalismn wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Do spherians parent have to acquire the skill body building to have a child?

"You gave our -son- a PRINCESS CUT?!"

"Hmm... I think I need a little practice." (Starts MDC Chainsaw)

"I'AM GROOT!!!"

taalismn wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Do spherians parent have to acquire the skill body building to have a child?

"You gave our -son- a PRINCESS CUT?!"

Uh we're asexual and we are litterally gender defined by choice so when... yeah I forgot.

SRoss wrote:

taalismn wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:[

Do spherians parent have to acquire the skill body building to have a child?

"You gave our -son- a PRINCESS CUT?!"

"Hmm... I think I need a little practice." (Starts MDC Chainsaw)

"I'AM GROOT!!!"

They don't use tools for shaping

I forget where I saw it, but I remember seeing an image of a model sheet for the various Sentinel races. The thing is, there were a lot more than for or five races on that sheet. Does anyone else remember this? Better, does anyone have that image?

dataweaver wrote:I forget where I saw it, but I remember seeing an image of a model sheet for the various Sentinel races. The thing is, there were a lot more than for or five races on that sheet. Does anyone else remember this? Better, does anyone have that image?

Saw a couple but it appeared as if they were sketch ideas prior to final selection.

They almost certainly were. But this wouldn't be the first time that sketch ideas are turned into something more.

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

dataweaver wrote:They almost certainly were. But this wouldn't be the first time that sketch ideas are turned into something more.

Indeed, and some of them looked like quite interesting starfish aliens.

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

Sweeeeeeeeeet.

Actually, in my games I assume that the period covered by the Marines Sourcebook ended in the early 2030s with the defeat of the Regent, and that over the next decade or so the various worlds freed from the Regent set up “Sentinel Forces” on their homeworlds, sort of like National Guards. The mechanical pegasi, wolves, falcons, and so on weren't around during the liberation campaign, but were key parts of the Praxian Sentinel Force that was subsequently established.

So they're not technically something that I'd put in the Marines Sourcebook even if I could. Instead, they'd be part of a separate supplement dedicated to the Sentinel Forces.

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

How about those big honking combat chariots(or are they horse-drawn artillery) from the development art?

taalismn wrote:

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

How about those big honking combat chariots(or are they horse-drawn artillery) from the development art?

The thing that could transform between chariot and motorcycle? Certainly — though in chariot mode, I also give it the ability to fold its wheels upward and use them as lift-fans. What's the point of hitching yourself to a Pegasus if you're forced to stay on the ground because wheels?

Again though, those are post-Regent developments. There might have been a prototype RAT-1 and a prototype chariot developed during the liberation campaign; but they didn't enter mass-production until later.

Also: upon closer review, the Expeditionary Force timeline isn't as badly screwed up as I originally thought. You just need to shift the Expeditionary events from 2025–2027 back three years, push the Battle of Optera forward a few years (except for the introduction of Cyclones, which get pushed back a few years instead) and add a note that Edwards managed to cripple the Pioneer during his escape, accounting for the gap between then and the Battle of Optera. Also, delete all references to the three-year time dilation effect: that never happened in the Shadow Chronicles version of Robotech.

actually you don't have to shift the 2025-2027 stuff back at all. you just have to drop the "single long distance fold" (which is not supported by either HG's canon or the RPG's stats) and just assume they spent 3 years traveling using many folds.

and the battle of optera actually takes place in 2042. the date comes from Prelude. 13 years later than the book says.

note that a lot of the other details are wrong too.. for example we know that max and miriya were aboard the SDF-3 when it disappeared after the haydonite attack in 2044, making it impossible for them to be on Haydon IV at the same time. (actually, there is no evidence so far that the world of "haydon IV" even exists in HG's current canon)
there is also the problem that it says major Carpenter left for earth on a prototype ship.. when the ship he was on is established in dialog in the show as being 15 years old, making its launch in 2012ish, rather than the 2027 the book says. not to mention, the ship Carpenter is on is not a prototype. per HG canon there are multiples of the tokugawa class, they were one of earth's main battleships.

etc. frankly there is a lot of problems with it. Ghost Fleet was going to fix some of them through just overriding the details with better info in later books.. but unfortunately it was still being written. (i was one of the ones brought by Mr. Walton in to help sort out the continuity issues and correct the timeline issues)

Now that the license is gone, would you be able to post the timeline corrections that were worked out?

well most of them are just notes i gave to Mr. Walton. Most about how to phrase things to ensure that specific details would get replaced by the "newer books override older ones" aspect of RPG continuity, and such. though we did discuss some newer details that were a bit more speculative.

but i've considered taking the old robotech.com timeline i have archived, and elaborating it with details from the RPG books, including 'corrected' UEEF marines stuff.. though there were a few aspects to those we never discussed that would probably need some adjusting. (for example, we are told in Prelude to shadow chronicles that the sentinels worlds were "recently liberated" as of a meeting occurring in 2040, which suggests that it took a lot longer to liberate each of those worlds than the couple of months each shown in the books. basically that they should be spread out over more time.

glitterboy2098 wrote:well most of them are just notes i gave to Mr. Walton. Most about how to phrase things to ensure that specific details would get replaced by the "newer books override older ones" aspect of RPG continuity, and such. though we did discuss some newer details that were a bit more speculative.

but i've considered taking the old robotech.com timeline i have archived, and elaborating it with details from the RPG books, including 'corrected' UEEF marines stuff.. though there were a few aspects to those we never discussed that would probably need some adjusting. (for example, we are told in Prelude to shadow chronicles that the sentinels worlds were "recently liberated" as of a meeting occurring in 2040, which suggests that it took a lot longer to liberate each of those worlds than the couple of months each shown in the books. basically that they should be spread out over more time.

Indeed...liberating a world might take a while given the Regent's nasty habit of infesting planets with Inorganics. Just taking a few major cities and facilities in decisive battle might be enough to kick the bigger 'true' Invid presence off or deny them use of the planet, but a few hidden Brains and armies of Inorganics might take months, if not years, of slogging house-to-house fighting and sweeps of the wildernesses to keep them from popping up, assembling, and threatening the secured zones and the local populace(I wouldn't put it past the Regent to regularly engage in issuing 'exterminate the civilians' orders to the left-behind Inorganics if the locals ever managed to overthrow his rule or where liberated from outside).

i'd imagine the goal of the initial invasion of the world would be to hit the main center of invid occupation, the invid HQ basically, and seize and hold that spot as a base, while gradually attacking and destroying the hives around the globe. which is what they tried with earth.. only the earth occupation was several orders of magnitude larger than anything they faced in tirolian empire space, and as a result a single division and its fleet wasn't enough to establish a foothold.

so like, the original goal for earth would have been to hit reflex point and take it out, then hit the hives around north america, then move on to say, south america and take out the hives there. then move on to other continents and clear then out. only the reflex point hive complex was probably as large as the entire occupation of a world by the regent.. and earth had a lot more hives all over as well.

that would also explain why they though point-K could survive.. such a base probably would have worked on a Regent held world, especially if the people stayed out of battles and avoided drawing attention.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'

so like, the original goal for earth would have been to hit reflex point and take it out, then hit the hives around north america, then move on to say, south america and take out the hives there. then move on to other continents and clear then out. only the reflex point hive complex was probably as large as the entire occupation of a world by the regent.. and earth had a lot more hives all over as well.

that would also explain why they though point-K could survive.. such a base probably would have worked on a Regent held world, especially if the people stayed out of battles and avoided drawing attention.

The live invid would be concentrated in those few hives on a Regent-occupied world. That means their air support and air-mobile rapid-response forces. Blow them away, and 'all' you have to face(if you're lucky) is the Inorganics spaced around a planet. If you're REALLY lucky, you manage to locate and zap the controlling Brains. If you're only partly lucky, at least you have a little time to bring down your destroids and artillery train to secure ground and deal with the Inorganics as they wander in.

dataweaver wrote:I forget where I saw it, but I remember seeing an image of a model sheet for the various Sentinel races. The thing is, there were a lot more than for or five races on that sheet. Does anyone else remember this? Better, does anyone have that image?

I think I know what you're talking about.

It's included in the extras related to Sentinels, I don't recall which disc off hand, but I know its on the Legacy Extras. I don't know if it was carried over to later versions extras.

This is what a quick google search yeilded up:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... =9&t=99253
(scroll down to a later post by RSCF that has links to the images I think you are talking about, there might be more on the Extras than RSCF posted here)

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

Why stop at robot pegasi? If they're also doing mythology robot dragons, Minotaur power armor, Colossi Giant Robots

Zer0 Kay wrote:

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

Why stop at robot pegasi? If they're also doing mythology robot dragons, Minotaur power armor, Colossi Giant Robots

You read my mind. Also, I give them Valkyrie Veritechs; and I'm not referring to the UEDF's VF-1 series, but a design unique to the Praxians with a distinctly feminine Battloid mode. (I'll confess, in my games I based the design on Mylene's Valkyrie from Macross 7; I'm not terribly creative.)

dataweaver wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

Why stop at robot pegasi? If they're also doing mythology robot dragons, Minotaur power armor, Colossi Giant Robots

You read my mind. Also, I give them Valkyrie Veritechs; and I'm not referring to the UEDF's VF-1 series, but a design unique to the Praxians with a distinctly feminine Battloid mode. (I'll confess, in my games I based the design on Mylene's Valkyrie from Macross 7; I'm not terribly creative.)

Remember the Custom Zentraedi FPA from Strike Force with the b**b guns? I busted a gut laughing when I saw that.

No, I don't. Deliberately.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

dataweaver wrote:

BookWyrm wrote:Is it weird that I miss the RAT-1?

Nope. In fact, in my games the Praxians have robot wolves and robot falcons as well as robot pegasi.

Why stop at robot pegasi? If they're also doing mythology robot dragons, Minotaur power armor, Colossi Giant Robots

Develop it. Stat it. Take my money. Please.

Actually, I've recently been reminded that Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles (which started with Edwards' reveal and ended with the destruction of the Deuceleon) occurred with roughly one-year intervals between the issues. That puts Edwards' reveal no earlier than 2040, and the bulk of the Sentinels campaign gets spread out over at least fifteen years; and each world's liberation is a campaign comparable with one of the original three Robotech Sagas.

not quite a year between issues, but pretty much. (spoilers inbound!)



issue 1 had Edward's coup (at least the end of it, when he flees in the shimakaze class Icarus, escorted by the first shadow fighters, and between the fighters and the regent showing up, resulted in the SDF-3 being heavily damaged.) it ended with a time skip to "1 year later" as the newly refit Tokugawa class Tokugawa leaves to find and bring edwards to justice.

issue 2 states that "it has been just over a year since edwards escaped tirol" in its opening 'narration' in the form of Vince Grant's log. which just verifies the previous issues "1 year later" bit. given that it says that it is "just over a year", the travel time would only seem to be a few months at worst. probably less than one, given events later in the series.

issue 3 through 5 don't have any specifcially stated time skips with each issue starting right where the previous ended. and the events depicted don't allow for much elapsed time, though you could possibly justify a few days here and there during scene changes. (such as the time between the tokugawa going down, the UEEF receiving the distress signal, and the SDF-3 arriving at optera.. that latter event almost has to have at least a day just to let the SDF-3's engins be installed. the tokugawa's crew being rounded up over a couple days after the crash would make sense to me. some of them would likely have gone to ground or fought back, so it would not be terribly fast. but you couldn't really justify more than a few days)

once the SDF-3 is done at optera it heads back to space station liberty, where we start seeing the planning for reflex point.. and given the dialog, it is pretty close time wise. Rick talks about what they will be doing with some of the people they rescued at optera (like minmei) for example, hardly something you'd discuss after a long timeskip. suggesting that at most a few weeks have passed. we then get a meeting where the reflex point plan is made, including the plan to immediately test one of the nuetron-S warheads in the omicron sector, then get various character perspectives establishing that the assault is very soon and being prepared. it ends with the icarus heading off to earth, and the SDF-3 starting the test. so right before the film.

this would put the Edwards coup in the 2042-43 range, allowing for vague travel times and such.

though his conspiracy probably started back in the 2020's, probably even before the SDF-3 left earth.